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Author Topic: My journey with therapy - III  (Read 698 times)
Nuitari
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« on: December 10, 2016, 07:26:52 PM »

Excerpt
I haven't read every post of yours, but I can sympathize with the ruminations you've been having.  Have you thought about talking to your doctor about getting on an antidepressant?  Mine started me on Lexapro in August.  Lexapro is often prescribed for people with OCD.  I had to up my dosage after 4 weeks but about 8 weeks in... .it really made a huge difference with ruminations.

My therapist keeps suggesting that I try medication, but I'm hesitant. As torturous as my ruminations are at times, I feel like I need to do them. I feel like I'm still trying to work through something. My therapist says that that is just a feeling and nothing more. She says I'll always feel like I need to resolve something in my mind, but its just my OCD. But I don't believe that. I don't think I've come close to even addressing my real problem, whatever that is. I still can't make sense of everything that happened. On some level I don't think I even believe it happened at all. Its like none of it has become "real" for me yet. So I keep playing things over and over in my head, trying to accept that they happened, and trying to understand why these things hurt me on such a deep level.
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Nuitari
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« Reply #1 on: December 10, 2016, 08:38:40 PM »

Excerpt
Nuitari,

I feel you and hear you on your thoughts and feelings.  I've beat my head up against many walls when met with what my mind may define as illogical thinking.  This has helped me tremendously... .many times in life we just have to accept people for who they are and how they are... .Radical Acceptance is a powerful concept once understood and put into use.  Read the whole post here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=90041.0
Let us know what you think... .

Thanks for the link. I'll definitely read that.

My big problem is going thru trauma and not being able to understand the hows and the whys behind it. Those who know me personally were in complete shock to learn what I'd done. It was so unlike me. Its something I never would have thought I was capable of. That job completed me. Why would I put it in jeopardy like that? I can't understand my own actions. Nor can I fully understand the actions of the husband.

I lost my father when I was 16. A couple of years ago, my mom decided to tell me that he had been having an affair. I was shocked. My parents always seemed happy together. They had their regular spats like all couples do, but overall it seemed a good marriage. I never could have imagined that he was capable of something like that. My mom said that she's made peace with it now (that was over 20 years ago), but that for a time she felt anger toward the woman my dad had an affair with and blamed her for it. As sympathetic as a I am toward my mom, I cannot understand that mindset. If she were going to be angry at anyone, it should have been with my dad. He's the one who betrayed her. Don't get me wrong. I am not in any way judging my dad for his actions. After what I've done, I don't exactly have a soap box to stand on. But he made his own choices. It doesn't make sense that my mom would direct her anger at a third party that in no way forced my dad to have an affair against his will. He could have just said, "thanks but no thanks. I'm married."

Its just never made any sense to me for a person to discover that they've been betrayed by their partner, and then become angry at the third party when the person who really hurt them was not that stranger but the cheating partner.  Whenever we discover that our spouse or significant other is cheating on us, and we lash out at the third party, we are essentially objectifying our cheating partner. On some level we are saying that they are less culpable than the affair partner. I violated school policy when I chose to get involved with a student on a personal level. That fact alone was enough to warrant me losing my job. No argument there. But is that fact the only thing the husband is supposed to care about? What about the fact that his wife was complicit, and that she's proven to be untrustworthy? Shouldn't those facts hit closer to home for him that the choices I, a stranger, made? Call me naïve, but I always thought that marriage was based on mutual love and trust. Their marriage seems to be devoid of both, and yet it was still important enough to him to fight for it. Why?

And how was me losing my job supposed to make things better for their marriage? He clearly thought it would, but couldn't calling the school just as easily have driven a bigger rift between them? It didn't, so he clearly knows better than me about this stuff, but how did he know that act wasn't going to turn her against him? I was sure she was going to leave him when it came out that he had called the school, because she loved me, and now I am left feeling very foolish. Despite all of her actions that helped to create this situation, in the end she is seen as a passive "trophy" to be won, and even behaved as such. Is the woman in these situations supposed to just run to the guy who is hitting the hardest? Is it really that simple? Are her "feelings" contingent on which man can dish out the worst punishment to the other?

I just need this all to make sense.
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Nuitari
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« Reply #2 on: January 01, 2017, 10:26:04 AM »

I wrote my ex a letter. Just thought I'd share it here... .

L,

I'm sending this to you in a moment of weakness. You made my life a living hell, and some days it is too much to keep everything inside. It’s all in the past now, but I am still stuck in it because I never did what anyone with any self-respect would have done in my position. I hope you appreciate that I never called R and told him everything. You have no idea how hard it’s been for me to refrain from doing that, to remain silent and let him blame me for the source of his marriage problems while I had to lose everything I cared about. Who else would do that? My therapist keeps telling me that I am not a victim, but I can't see it that way. I may have only been a passing acquaintance that you may think of from time to time after having the fortune of picking up your life where you left off, but you have unfortunately made a significant and lasting effect on my life and my emotional well-being. I understand you so much better now. You tried to tell me many times, and now I get it. I lost my job because I had feelings for someone who isn't capable of returning them, who isn't even capable of experiencing them. You know what would have helped me? Some gesture from you that it meant something, that I was more to you than R's temporary substitute, that I didn't throw my job away for nothing. At the very least, you should have told R the full truth about you and me. Our relationship, as brief as it was, meant everything to me. How do you think it makes me feel knowing you denied to him how serious it was? My whole life got turned upside down, while his feelings were protected. How would you feel? I guarantee you that you would not have remained silent. My therapist said that I am suffering trauma. I feel like my involvement with you has permanently damaged me, while you and R got to move on like the whole thing was a minor inconvenience. You probably see this as whining, but you better be glad that I never called that son of a b**ch to tell him the full truth. I tried very hard to find out if R played a bigger role in getting me fired, but the school has refused to discuss it with me. I think this world is a very sick place if you and R can be happy together after what happened. You should have told him L. That one gesture would have meant everything to me. You used to say that all three of us were guilty, and we all three had to pay. Did you ever mean that? I can't even believe now that you let what happened at school interrupt your sex life, and it makes me realize how insignificant I was to you. After having no boundaries with you while R was away, for you to suddenly not want to discuss what you and R were doing on the grounds that it is personal is very insulting, and it leaves me feeling very used. I am writing this hoping that some part of you can empathize with what I am feeling, but I no longer expect it of you. You always seemed very aware of how your actions affected R, and of how he would have felt if you had left him, but it was always so impossible for me to find the right words that would finally convey to you the impact that you had on my life. I assure you that my feelings for you were just as real as his, and my job was just as critical to my happiness as his marriage was to his. That place was my home. So why am I expected to be able to move on? Would you have expected him to move on so easily if you had left him for me? I accepted it when you told me that you were going to remain with him. I didn't like it, but I accepted it, and I had to lose my job anyway. How am I not a victim? I could accept everything that happened if I thought our relationship was something meaningful, even if unsustainable. But when I look back, all I see is a pattern of use and abuse. When I think of all the times you needed me to help you, or when I think of how quickly you were able to reconcile with R, or when I think of what you might have done with Byron, or what you and R might have done with that woman from his work, or when I think of how quickly your feelings for me vanished when your "needs" changed, all I can feel is humiliation and hate. Do you remember the day you told me that you never loved anyone before, but that you thought you could love me? Do you remember saying that? Do you know the impact those words had on me? Do you know how it made me feel to hear someone so beautiful say that to me? You held my heart in your hands from that moment on. After hearing you say those things to me, how could you expect me to accept so easily that you reconciled with R like I was nothing? How do you think it made me feel to hear you confess to me later, after I lost my job, that you can't love anyone? If that's true why did you act like it? I lived a solitary life of black and white. You came along and introduced me to a world of color, and the only way that I've learned to endure is to eradicate those colors that made me feel alive. I never would have allowed myself the hope that someone like you would want me in your life, and you should have never given it to me. If you only needed temporary companionship while he was away, you should have told me from the beginning. Instead you let me think that I had a future with you. You played with my feelings. That was unnecessary and very cruel, and I will always hate you for it.


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« Reply #3 on: January 01, 2017, 01:22:13 PM »

hey Nuitari,

did you send the letter? was it cathartic to write?
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Nuitari
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« Reply #4 on: January 01, 2017, 05:33:14 PM »

I wrote that in a moment of extreme anger, and it did seem to provide some temporary relief. I haven't sent it yet. I'm still weighing the pro's and con's about doing that. I never responded to her previous couple of attempts at contact, and my T says that exposing my wounds to her will only validate her, so its best that I let her think that I've let go and moved on and no longer even think about her. The thing is, I find it insulting that my ex could think that I'm ok after everything she's done. My biggest problem throughout all of this has been not expressing what I feel, and at some point I'm going to have to do that. But then I think, why bother? I doubt she'll even read it, and probably wouldn't give a damn about the contents if she did. In her mind I'm probably the bad guy for not writing that recommendation letter she asked for. So the whole thing is kinda pointless. I think that's why I'm so invested in contacting her husband. I know I can strike a much bigger nerve with him than I ever could with her. I just feel like I can't move on without giving a little back first. The thought of carrying it with me the rest of my life is too much.
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« Reply #5 on: January 01, 2017, 06:46:59 PM »

Excerpt
- and my immediate focus was to end her relationship with him and stop any future contact.

I keep coming back to this statement that someone made earlier, because this was also the approach that my ex's husband tried to take, and I can't get past the idea that this strategy can actually work. A spouse is cheating with no sense of guilt about it, the husband forbids this behavior, and everything is fine after that? That's all it takes? I'm a relationship rookie, and don't pretend to be knowledgeable in this area, but I always viewed a romantic relationship as a verbal contract between two consenting adults, where both parties are equals and carry the same burden of responsibility, as opposed to a relationship between a parent and child, or a child and babysitter. Its hard for me to see the appeal of a relationship when one partner has to force it to work by "forbidding" the other from cheating. I'm not sure that's the glue that's supposed to hold a relationship together. Does it or should it matter to the parties involved what is holding the relationship together?

Here's an analogy that may help get my point across. Some of you may be familiar with the First Law of Thermodynamics, which states that the temperature of a substance can be increased in one of two ways: heat and work. Both of these are nothing but energy transfer, and in that sense they are equivalent. If I measure the temperature of something, and return later to find that the temperature had increased, I can conclude that the object was either heated or work was performed on it. I can even calculate how much heat or how work was needed to achieve that temperature change, but there is no experiment that I can do to determine which it was. This is because heat and work can bring the system to the same final state. Knowledge of the initial and final states can tell me nothing regarding the process (heat, work, or possibly a combination of the two) that was involved in achieving that state change. If the object was heated, I can just as easily model the state change has having been brought about by mechanical work with zero heat exchange. Mathematically its the same thing. If both result in the same final state, why worry about what process got it there? I feel like a lot of you are saying the same thing about my situation. Regardless of who started the relationship, regardless of whether it was an affair or just a case of sexual harassment (as my employers falsely believed), it all brings me to the same state: my being fired. So why worry about who started it, etc? All of these cases are equally unethical, so it should make no difference to the school. I had a non-professional relationship with a student. That's all the school needed to know to terminate my employment. As much as I don't like it, I can't disagree with the school's decision. I should have known better. But my ex's husband, unlike the school, should have an invested interest in the particulars of what was going on between me and his wife (who started it, was it an affair, etc.) I get why the school doesn't care about those details, but shouldn't the husband? Just because she seducing me has the same outcome as me seducing her, he doesn't have to care which it was? His only concern seemed to be with me, which is weird. I understand that mentality from the school, but him?  

 
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Nuitari
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« Reply #6 on: January 01, 2017, 07:04:41 PM »

Here's another analogy I thought of. After losing my job, I discovered that a colleague of mine at the school was promoted to fill the vacancy that my termination had left. I had worked with this person for years, and he's a really nice guy. But I have to admit that at times I catch myself feeling some resentment when I think of him sitting in my office and teaching my classes. That should be me. But whenever I think that way, I remind myself that its silly to feel any negative feelings toward him. He didn't take my job. He was given it after I screwed up. He's a great teacher and if I had been allowed to choose my replacement, I would have chosen him without thinking twice. The school made a good choice. The point I'm trying to make here is that for me to get angry at my colleague for "stealing" my job is to ascribe an action to him that wasn't his. When someone's spouse has an affair, it is equally fallacious to accuse the third party of "stealing" the cheating spouse. That's absurd. I'm not saying that I should be viewed as innocent or anything, just that my ex's husband's  particular way of looking at what happened is really messed up.

I guess I'm left feeling like I was not only punished by the school, but by him as well. I can accept my being punished by the former, but not by the latter. I try to tell myself that what happened was just, that I had it coming because I was sleeping with his wife. I tell myself this in an effort feel OK about everything that happened. But no matter how hard I try to see it that way, I can't. Sometimes our language shapes how we view reality.  There is a big difference between the statements "A married woman and I behaved badly and had an inappropriate relationship" and "I was sleeping with a married woman." Both convey the same information, but they couldn't paint more different mental pictures. My ex was a subject in one sentence, and the object of the other. In one sentence she played an active role in the affair, and in the other, a passive one. But the objective reality is that we were all individuals making our own decisions. While I can acknowledge that I made unwise choices, any argument that he was justified at lashing out at me on the grounds that I was sleeping with "his wife" is to objectify her, effectively turning a situation involving three people into one involving only two. But that's not reality.  
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« Reply #7 on: January 02, 2017, 11:55:13 AM »

youve gotten a lot of input on both sides of the coin.

is it decision time?
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Nuitari
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« Reply #8 on: January 04, 2017, 09:02:29 AM »

youve gotten a lot of input on both sides of the coin.

is it decision time?

I feel like the decision was made a long time ago, and now I'm desperately trying to avoid it. You know that feeling you get when you try to hold in a sneeze or cough? You only become more uncomfortable as the seconds tick by, and you know its coming out eventually whether you like it or not. That's how I've been feeling for the past two years.
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« Reply #9 on: January 04, 2017, 12:51:34 PM »

I decided to share with you all an email that my ex sent me after going NC and stopped returning her calls. I'm sharing this because I'm hoping this can give everyone who's followed my story a better appreciation of what I was going through at the time I lost my job.


         I feel really sorry for all the pain I have caused you. It was never my intention to hurt you in any way, but unfortunately sometimes life circumstances get out of our control leaving us vulnerable and miserable. If turning back the time was possible, I would change so much of my past. Even though I never meant to hurt anyone, especially somebody as great as you are, I have still played a very pivotal role in destroying your life. Deep down inside I always believe that you can be very happy with someone else one day and I hope and pray that day will come soon. It probably is very pointless to ask about your job because it seems that you have no desire to tell me about it. The reason why I called you yesterday is to let you know that I have been rejected by all the dental schools I have applied to. MUSC granted me a chance to interview with them, but they had more than 1200 applications with only 50 slots for in-state students. As a result of high competition, I did not make the cut. These past few days have been so pathetic for me. The very idea of knowing that I have done so very much for my success in school and actually have very good grades, but nevertheless I was not worth of MUSC's time and afford absolutely tears my heart apart . Since you helped me through the application process, I felt obligated to let you know the outcome of my uselessness. It does sound like I cry on your shoulder once again and it is true, but I am trying to find  way to cope with my deep sorrows on my own. You know what I realize when it comes down to the bitter reality of my current situation, I begin seeing clearly that I should have never put so much of my heart into schooling. All the time dedicated to school took away an opportunity to spend time with my little children; time that I can never regain. However, education has truly offered me a lot of knowledge that I previously did not have and I cannot say that I totally regret having so much passion for it. What makes me feel remorse and shame is the consequence that I am facing now, the failure that prevents me from sleeping at night, and nonfulfillment that will haunt me forever. When I ask myself, what is there left for me to do in order to avoid such an emotional turmoil, you know what I come up with... .? The same simple truth I discovered many years ago and that means being very impersonal. It seems that being passionless to a certain degree can do a better job than driving myself insane in the aftermath of the rejection letters. If we could only eliminate all the pain when we care just as easy as in the situations that don't relate to us emotionally, we would possibly be very happy. Any relationship and other efforts that don't work out in our favor should be eradicated not only from our minds, but also from our hearts. You think that it's easy said than done, you are right, but we have to strive for it.

It turned out to be a very depressing and discouraging letter and I am sorry about it, but this is what I can think of right now. On the good note, Yuliya and I are driving to Atlanta tomorrow. When I come back, I will help my physical therapist friend to unpack her moving boxes this weekend. Jess and I will also celebrate our birthdays next week. Hopefully, all of them will keep me busy and help me alleviate the emotional torment I experience.

I truly wish you the best with everything.



My ex is very emotionally needy, and needs constant validation from others. Notice how she talks about herself, and her life, in this letter. She is a bottomless pit of despair and self-pity. I tried so hard to pull her out of this state of mind, but the more I tried, the more things I lost. Notice how she begins by briefly apologizing for my misfortunes, and then devotes the bulk of the letter to her own problems. This letter is a good illustration of what was happening with us when I lost my job. She was only ever mindful of her own feelings and needs. I wasn't allowed to feel any pain at the thought of her sleeping with her husband, or that she was able to just move on and stop having feelings for me when her needs changed. But I was still expected to help her. She got to move on but I wasn't allowed to. I was just supposed to keep my feelings to myself and not bother her with them. The only way I knew to move on was to end all contact with her, but I was always pulled back in by her damsel in distress routine. But inside I was dying. She's a parasite. I gave so much of myself, to the point where I lost my job, and still she kept asking for more and more. She knew I still had feelings and would never refuse help to her. She used me. I can see it so clearly now. She took my feelings and my personal hang-ups and exploited them. I don't know why I let this go on for as long as it did, but when she needed me, I had to be there for her. It just ticks me off that her husband chose to see what was happening as me pursuing his wife. He accused me of trying to talk her into leaving him, but I was trying to move on. I had already abandoned any thought of being with her. My only crime at that point was not having the backbone to say no to her. I wasn't trying to take her away from him, but I still had to lose my job for it. Anyway, I just wanted to share that email because it is very representative of my overall experience with her: me trying to withdraw while she uses her own drama to keep me bound to her.
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« Reply #10 on: January 13, 2017, 03:04:02 PM »

Hi Nuitari,

Your exes email is mix of apology and self justification. I think her coping strategy - trying to erase or deny the past- is pretty typical of someone suffering from a disorder.

I think it's likely that her relationship with you and the fallout it caused triggers shame so she locks it away.That's her issue - not yours.

She does seems pretty self interested and a little oblivious to others, and if you view BPD as a kind of arrested emotional development that's not surprising either.

The dynamic you describe, where her needs where paramount does sound unhealthy. Do you accept that you played a part in this too by accepting it?

We are not here to condone the bad behaviour of our BPD exes, partners and loved ones - though understanding their behaviour can't help us heal - but we can learn from the experience and adapt which is perhaps the useful skill in life.

When we get drawn into and enmeshed into a destructive relationship we play a part in that process.

Apportioning blame doesn't actually help us. The important thing is to focus on own choices, learn from them and make better ones in the future.

I'm not suggesting that this is easy, painless or that it happens immediately. Recognising our own choices and their consequences can be one of the most challenging parts of healing but it's a foundation for growth.

When we get fixated on blame or deny our own agency we get stuck.

Excerpt
It just ticks me off that her husband chose to see what was happening as me pursuing his wife. He accused me of trying to talk her into leaving him, but I was trying to move on. I had already abandoned any thought of being with her. My only crime at that point was not having the backbone to say no to her. I wasn't trying to take her away from him, but I still had to lose my job for it. 

It seems to me that you are still blaming her husband for the loss of your job.

Correct me if I'm wrong but you lost your job because you had an affair with a student.

I'm not blaming here- I shared my own similar experience where I made some destructive choices which impacted on my career - but we are all responsible for own choices and behaviour.

Your ex also happened to be married with a family. Again I'm observing not blaming. I'm also not excusing or condoning your ex from her responsibility. The truth is you both played a part your affair.

Affairs are messy and destructive. People get hurt and there's usually a lot of collateral damage.

Speaking as someone who has also experienced being betrayed I can tell you that it is one of the most traumatic experiences you could ever have. I wouldn't wish it on anyone. Everything you value, your identity, your sense of self, the life you have worked to build, your entire world is shattered into a thousand pieces. And when you're experiencing profound trauma you don't think and act clearly. I think that's pretty understandable in the circumstances.

Even if your exe never admitted the affair to her husband I believe he has a pretty good idea that something happened. His behaviour certainly suggests that. I think deep down most people sense that something is going on.

For good or bad your affair ended. Ultimately it's their marriage and their business

I realise that is has caused you a lot of pain and hurt, but you have the chance to build a happy and rewarding life.

Good luck

Reforming
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« Reply #11 on: January 17, 2017, 10:26:03 PM »

Reforming,

Thanks for the post. I've been seeing a new therapist Sense the beginning of December, and while I can't say that I am healing (today was the lowest I've been in a long time), I feel like I'm actually gaining some insight and clarity into my dilemma. What I'm finally realizing is that what I've been looking for is acknowledgment. That's what this has been about. You and others here have stated that I'm looking for revenge against the husband for the loss of my job. I feel like some of you have chosen that view because it is easier to understand. But I can now sincerely say that it isn't about revenge, but acknowledgment. If I knew that I meant something to my ex (I accepted that out relationship was over. I didn't need it to be permanent, just meaningful), or if she had shown some form of sincere remorse for what happened to me, I wouldn't be going through what I'm going through right now. I could walk away. If our relationship had meant anything to her, she would have told him everything about us. I want acknowledgment, even if I have to force it on them.

Excerpt
It seems to me that you are still blaming her husband for the loss of your job.

I keep saying it, and I don't expect you to believe me at this point, but I'm not blaming the husband for the loss of my job. At least that's not how I'm seeing it. My job was my responsibility, and I threw it away. I'll never forgive myself for that. But if I'm driving a car, and I hit jay-walker, and the circumstances were such that I couldn't avoid it, I'd still feel terrible. Even though it was the jay-walker's fault (he knew he was jay-walking, and accepted the risk of being run over), I'd still feel guilt and remorse at what happened. This was the most traumatic event of my life, and it doesn't even make it into their long-term memory. It might have been the jay-walker's fault he got hit, but I'm still getting out of my car to make sure he's OK. Its hard for me to see how they could just walk away and never look back. I'm a human being. The world just doesn't make sense if a marriage can be OK after a mess like this. Its not about my job, but about acknowledgment and their behavior in the aftermath of what happened.

Excerpt
Correct me if I'm wrong but you lost your job because you had an affair with a student.

Sorry I still haven't told that story in its entirety. I actually started typing out that story but stopped midway. I'm going to try instead to type a short version that only includes the bare essentials. I will do that soon. But to answer your immediate question, I was suspected of having an affair, and lost my job on those grounds. I'll tell this story soon.


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« Reply #12 on: January 18, 2017, 04:01:52 PM »

Excerpt
Ultimately it's their marriage and their business

I'm just trying to wrap my head around the idea that its even possible for the two of them to live happily ever after. Regardless of my own culpability, its hard for me to see how my ex could so easily forgive him if she really loved me. You would think the act of calling the school would have created some friction in their marriage wouldn't you? But no. Is that kind of aggressive and vindictive behavior what attracts women? Is that what wins them over? Acting out of some animalistic desire to protect what is his. My T says that he probably knows his wife well enough to know that she was the driving force behind everything that was happening. The husband even told me once that she was just leading me on. Again, I'm not trying to shift blame or avoid accountability for my own actions, but I can't help but see it as infantile that he would single me out as the threat and lash out at me because I was the easier target. I keep trying to look at it from his point of view. I'm married and my wife is deceiving another man into thinking her marriage is ending and that she wants to be with him. So I get mad and do something bad to the guy? I can't see myself doing that. It doesn't make sense. The other guy is far from innocent, and should have known better than to stumble into a messy situation like that, but he wasn't the origin of my marriage upheavals, and it doesn't make sense for me to single him out as a threat when the real source lies within, not without. I'm just trying to figure out the husband's logic. He behaved more like an animal protecting territory than a human being, not even addressing the root cause of his problems. If his way of dealing with things work, if their marriage lasts, and they are happy together, then it means we live in a world where that kind of shallow mentality can, and does, prevail.  

I'm honestly am not trying to shift blame when I say this, but I feel like I'm not getting any acknowledgment for trying to remove myself from that whole situation at the time he called the school, and I don't think there is anything wrong with wanting acknowledgment for that. The husband seemed to need to believe that I was actively trying to destroy his marriage, and it makes me want to rub his face in the ugly truth.
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« Reply #13 on: January 22, 2017, 05:40:25 PM »

Hi Nuitari,

Reforming,

Thanks for the post. I've been seeing a new therapist Sense the beginning of December, and while I can't say that I am healing (today was the lowest I've been in a long time), I feel like I'm actually gaining some insight and clarity into my dilemma.

I'm sorry that you have been feeling low. I really hope the new therapist will be a better fit. I'm not suggesting that your last T wasn't good, but it's so important to find T who you really click with. I worked with a few different therapists before I found one who was a good fit for me.


Excerpt
What I'm finally realizing is that what I've been looking for is acknowledgment. That's what this has been about. You and others here have stated that I'm looking for revenge against the husband for the loss of my job. I feel like some of you have chosen that view because it is easier to understand. But I can now sincerely say that it isn't about revenge, but acknowledgment. If I knew that I meant something to my ex (I accepted that out relationship was over. I didn't need it to be permanent, just meaningful), or if she had shown some form of sincere remorse for what happened to me, I wouldn't be going through what I'm going through right now. I could walk away. If our relationship had meant anything to her, she would have told him everything about us. I want acknowledgment, even if I have to force it on them.

I can absolutely relate to this and I think most of us have felt exactly the same. We all want to feel that we meant something to our exes, that they grieved at our loss and deeply regretted the pain they caused. Sadly very few of us ever get this acknowledgement or closure and it's one of the hardest parts of recovering from these relationships. The brutal truth is that no matter how much we want our exes to give this to us we cannot force them. In fact trying to compel them to do this just causes us more pain. We need  to find our own closure - in my experience it comes for ourself not anyone else.

Excerpt
I keep saying it, and I don't expect you to believe me at this point, but I'm not blaming the husband for the loss of my job. At least that's not how I'm seeing it. My job was my responsibility, and I threw it away. I'll never forgive myself for that.


For me - this was the very crux of my healing. Forgiving myself. I felt such hurt and anger at my ex for what she did. I felt violated and discarded...

It took me some time to realise that at very the root of this was an even deeper anger at myself. Anger for allowing my ex to treat me badly, for the poor choices I made and their painful consequences. But that anger was part of a punitive voice inside me who had been around long before I ever met my ex. It took work to challenge that voice and overrule it but when I learned I was able to forgive myself and show myself compassion.

And when I did this my anger towards my ex and my replacement gradually began to fade.

I'm not saying this is easy but it's definitely possible. There's a fine line here between taking responsibility for our own behaviour - we need to do this - and blaming and punishing ourselves for our mistakes which is destructive.

And we all make mistakes - it's an inevitable and necessary part of being alive. Some of these are small and some can be very painful, but they're always opportunities for growth as long as we approach them compassion and ourselves with compassion and curiosity.

[/quote] But if I'm driving a car, and I hit jay-walker, and the circumstances were such that I couldn't avoid it, I'd still feel terrible. Even though it was the jay-walker's fault (he knew he was jay-walking, and accepted the risk of being run over), I'd still feel guilt and remorse at what happened. This was the most traumatic event of my life, and it doesn't even make it into their long-term memory. It might have been the jay-walker's fault he got hit, but I'm still getting out of my car to make sure he's OK. Its hard for me to see how they could just walk away and never look back. I'm a human being. The world just doesn't make sense if a marriage can be OK after a mess like this. Its not about my job, but about acknowledgment and their behavior in the aftermath of what happened.[/quote]

Neither you nor I know what they're feeling right now. When we feel rejected, discarded and hurt it's easy to imagine that others are living in serene happiness. This is an illusion and I can tell you from my own experience that affairs cause huge pain, upheaval and trauma for everyone involved.

Your affair may not end their marriage - some experts suggest that 70% of couples choose to stay together and try and find a way through after an affair.  That doesn't mean that things magically go back to normal - if there ever was a normal. Rebuilding a marriage from the wreckage of an affair is painful, exhausting process that takes a huge amount of time, work and courage. Many fail but this is their choice and their business.

Excerpt
Sorry I still haven't told that story in its entirety. I actually started typing out that story but stopped midway. I'm going to try instead to type a short version that only includes the bare essentials. I will do that soon. But to answer your immediate question, I was suspected of having an affair, and lost my job on those grounds. I'll tell this story soon.

No pressure please share the rest of your story when you feel ready.

Good luck with your new T

We're here for you

Reforming
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« Reply #14 on: January 25, 2017, 01:43:45 PM »

I need some advice. The T that I'm now seeing was only supposed to be a temporary substitute while my regular T was away. But I'm finding that my new T is a better fit, and would like to keep seeing her. For those of you who switched therapists, was it awkward for you to tell your T that you found someone who works better for you? How did you go about it? I know my T will understand. I'm not expecting her to take it personally or anything. But I'm uncomfortable about it all the same. Any advice?
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« Reply #15 on: January 25, 2017, 05:13:51 PM »

Hi Nuitari

Your relationship with your therapist is a very personal choice. This is about more than their professional competence. A great T for one person may not be a good fit for another. Personality, gender and cultural background can all play a part in this.

I understand that you don't want to hurt your T but this is your therapy and you're driving it. You're the client here right? It's really important that you click with your T.

A good therapist will accept this. They will also recognise that the most important goal here is your own healing.

I think it's probably worth discussing this with your replacement T too in case they have any professional reservations about taking over a client from a colleague.

Good luck

Reforming

I need some advice. The T that I'm now seeing was only supposed to be a temporary substitute while my regular T was away. But I'm finding that my new T is a better fit, and would like to keep seeing her. For those of you who switched therapists, was it awkward for you to tell your T that you found someone who works better for you? How did you go about it? I know my T will understand. I'm not expecting her to take it personally or anything. But I'm uncomfortable about it all the same. Any advice?
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« Reply #16 on: January 26, 2017, 05:33:33 PM »

My therapist keeps suggesting that I try medication, but I'm hesitant. As torturous as my ruminations are at times, I feel like I need to do them. I feel like I'm still trying to work through something. My therapist says that that is just a feeling and nothing more. She says I'll always feel like I need to resolve something in my mind, but its just my OCD. But I don't believe that. I don't think I've come close to even addressing my real problem, whatever that is. I still can't make sense of everything that happened. On some level I don't think I even believe it happened at all. Its like none of it has become "real" for me yet. So I keep playing things over and over in my head, trying to accept that they happened, and trying to understand why these things hurt me on such a deep level.

I didn't see you state how long you are in recovery but I understand where you are at completely.

After my ex attempted to run me over, I became very emotional and wanted to retaliate... .Everyone is capable of an emotional over-reaction, not just BPDs.
Only a few months before, she had told me she had loved me.

The lack of justice is beyond scandalous. They'll continue to get away it ... .until they lose their looks. Beauty Fades but Personality Disorders Last Forever.
Samsara is waiting for them.

I had a recurring fantasy about throwing acid on her face, so that she could never use her beauty to deceive another again.
I very deeply considered suicide after that. I came close to a total nervous breakdown.

Almost every minute of every day, I dwelled on everything... .it was incredibly distressing for someone who had always been so ... .rational... .I understand where you are at.

Short of losing a child, I believe it's the worst pain that an adult can experience, and ever more wounding to a male in particular.

I had come out of a 9 year relationship the year before that, and the pain was not even 1/10th in comparison. Unfortunately, we - the other BPD abuse survivors - are the only people who will actually understand the sheer depth and breadth of the pain.
Any relationship which involves idealization/devaluation is psychologically catastrophic.

Trust me - as someone who has been there - you will get through it. I promise you.

Like Winston Churchill said - "When you're going through hell, Keep Going"

That's what you're going through.

Just know that you are going to come out the other side, a much more resilient and wiser individual. I assure you.

And by the way - I wouldn't have believed me either when I was going through hell.

Excerpt
She says I'll always feel like I need to resolve something in my mind, but its just my OCD. But I don't believe that. I don't think I've come close to even addressing my real problem, whatever that is. I still can't make sense of everything that happened. On some level I don't think I even believe it happened at all. Its like none of it has become "real" for me yet. So I keep playing things over and over in my head, trying to accept that they happened, and trying to understand why these things hurt me on such a deep level.

It's important that you understand - that it's completely normal to feel like this. I daresay... .typical.

You will not in fact always feel the need to resolve something. That will fade.

I would urge you to begin a gratitude journal. Begin meditation, even just for 10mins daily. Begin a gym program. Anything constructive you can fathom -

Excerpt
For those of you who switched therapists, was it awkward for you to tell your T that you found someone who works better for you? How did you go about it? I know my T will understand. I'm not expecting her to take it personally or anything. But I'm uncomfortable about it all the same. Any advice?

Absolutely not, if they're professional, they will completely understand.
If they don't understand - they're not professional and you shouldn't be placing your recovery in their hands.

My only advice is that you don't need to say " they're a better fit for me ". Just thank them for their services and tell them you'd like to try another therapist.

I also switched counsellor, the first was not a good fit for me (in fact, he partially exacerbated my concerns by telling me I was carrying baggage from my previous relationship, when in fact I was dealing with extensive triangulation. I didn't actually understand this at the time - it was my subsequent counsellor who explained this to me & he was shocked and apologised to me on behalf of his entire profession!)

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« Reply #17 on: January 27, 2017, 06:30:30 PM »

Reforming and infjEpic, thanks for the posts.

I feel like both my T's offered something unique in their approach, so it was tough call, but I think I've fallen into a good groove with my new T, and need to continue with that. I guess I was just worried that my original T would take it personally. I tend to be neurotic like that. But I spoke with her about it, and she was completely understanding. She wished me the best, and said that I was always welcome to come back if I needed her services in the future. So that's a big relief.
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« Reply #18 on: January 27, 2017, 08:06:10 PM »

Reforming and infjEpic, thanks for the posts.

I feel like both my T's offered something unique in their approach, so it was tough call, but I think I've fallen into a good groove with my new T, and need to continue with that. I guess I was just worried that my original T would take it personally. I tend to be neurotic like that. But I spoke with her about it, and she was completely understanding. She wished me the best, and said that I was always welcome to come back if I needed her services in the future. So that's a big relief.

Most who have been the non, in a BPD relationship, tend to be, I would wager, but that's part of a broader discussion.

I hope this T is a better fit for you, but don't hesitate to try others if you're not feeling it. FWIW, I'm not keen on medication either.

Nothing you have written indicates to me that you are broken - the opposite in fact - it's evident that you are committed to recovery.

They've seen you fall, now they will see you rise.
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« Reply #19 on: February 01, 2017, 10:54:10 AM »

Reforming,

I've been meaning to comment on something from your last post.

Excerpt
Rebuilding a marriage from the wreckage of an affair is painful, exhausting process that takes a huge amount of time, work and courage.

I get this. But I'm afraid it doesn't apply in their case. They just deny the affair happened, while my life got wrecked because of it. I hope you can understand how I feel shortchanged. I agree with your above quote, but I think that only applies to cases where the affair is discovered. The husband doesn't even know about the affair. That's what's eating away at me. If he had had all the facts, and called the school for those reasons, and their marriage experienced some degree of fallout over the whole thing, I couldn't be angry under those circumstances, because that is something that actually makes sense. Instead, my ex became convinced that he loves her after all, leaving their marriage in an even better state than it was when I became involved with her. At least that is the picture that was painted for me. Their marriage benefited from my loss. What kind of sick messed up world is this when that is allowed to happen? Your above statement should be true, but isn't because he was allowed to remain blissfully ignorant while my life fell apart. This is the injustice that I keep talking about. Not my job loss, but this.

A few days before the husband called the school, I met with him face-to-face. That meeting ended with him saying "I'm sorry she led you on." That doesn't sound like someone who knew I slept with his wife does it? Instead, what it seems to suggest (to me at least) is that he viewed the situation as one where his wife was simply playing with my feelings while not reciprocating any sincere feelings of her own. Its hard for me to see how he could view me as a genuine threat under those circumstances. So the lesson I'm taking away from this is that if I'm married, or in a committed relationship, and my significant other is showing attention to another man ("leading him on" as he put it), I just have to do something bad to that man, and problem solved! I don't have to worry about the fact that my partner is playing with a man's feelings and making false promises to him behind my back. I don't have to be disturbed that I'm with a woman that's capable of that. I just need to punish the other guy for taking the bait, and my relationship is saved! This appears to be what happened. My issue has been an inability to understand and accept the way this played out.

I completely understand my employer's reasons for firing me, and don't disagree. But I'm really struggling with understanding the husband's reasons for wanting me fired.

Btw, I've been typing out the story behind how I came to lose my job, and I will have that ready to post in the near future.
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« Reply #20 on: February 09, 2017, 04:47:09 PM »

I'm going to now share my story of how I lost my job. I apologize if this turns out to be a lengthy post. I'm going to try to keep it as brief as possible, but I'll be happy to ellaborate on specifics if there is a need. Here goes... .

This happened four months after the husband returned home. At this point, I don't think my ex nor I considered ourselves in a relationship. There was nothing sexual going on between us, and she had completely abandoned any thought of leaving her husband. We did, however, continue to see each other on a regular basis, against my better judgement. We spoke pretty much everyday at school. She'd often come into my office, and sometimes we'd talk in the parking lot before we both went home. You can probably imagine how painful this was for me knowing that she was now with her husband. As much as I was hurting, I was very understanding of her choosing to remain with him. What really hurt, and still hurts, was her attitude about it all. The email I posted above captures it really well. She broke my heart but still expected me to bend over backward for her. The more time passed, the more used I felt. Whenever we bumped into each other at school, there was usually some kind of huge favor she wanted from me. At this point all I wanted was closure, and that meant keeping a distance. To be honest, though, I didn't exactly do a lot to discourage her from visiting me at school. It was hard to set proper boundaries after everything that happened between us. The truth is, I loved her, and would have done anything I could to help her. So it was hard for me to tell her to stay away, and when I did, she'd either act very hurt or very angry, and I couldn't end things that way. I felt trapped. I eventually reached my breaking point and told her I didn’t want to see her anymore if we had no future together (That’s another whole story in itself, one I'll share if anyone is interested).  As hard as that was , and as devastated as I was, I felt like a huge weight had been lifted from me. I finally felt free. But I soon learned that it was too late. The damage had already been done. Just a couple of days after putting a stop to it, the VP of the school requested a meeting with me. Apparently, the amount of time we had spent together at school had raised some eyebrows. I don’t know who exactly alerted the administration, and it hardly matters now, but I was asked by the VP to explain myself. In particular, the VP wanted to know if I was in a relationship with the student. I responded by saying that I had been providing the student with extra help with some of her classes, and nothing more, which ironically was the complete truth. I was placed on suspension until the school completed an investigation. I was told by the VP that my ex would be questioned as well to see if her story matched mine, and during the investigation I was forbidden to have any contact with anyone affiliated with the school. That included both faculty and students. I went into panic mode, afraid that my ex was going to slip up and reveal to the school something about our history, and did something dumb. In an act of utter panic, I went to my ex’s place of work and told her what was going on, and specifically the information that I told the school. I know this was an incredibly stupid thing to do, but at this point I was still under so much stress from the events of a couple of days earlier, and I was no longer thinking straight. I was headed for a nervous breakdown. At any rate, my ex was very apologetic for putting me in that position (I know what you’re thinking, and you don’t have to say it. I put myself in that position, but she blamed herself nonetheless) and assured me that she wouldn’t tell the school anything that was going to put my job in further jeopardy. But she did something I didn’t count on. When I told her that someone had taken note of our constant meetings at school, she became convinced that her husband was having her followed. She went home that day and confronted him about it. She told him the whole story: how I was suspended, how I visited her at work, and most importantly, how I had been forbidden by the school from contacting her. The next day the husband called the school. After my termination, I was allowed to view a transcript of the phone message he left. It basically stated a knowledge that I had gotten suspended, and that he didn't want to see a teacher get fired and have his wife feel responsible. That phone call sealed the deal, because it happened before the school had the opportunity to question my ex. This proved that I had been in contact with her during my suspension. How else would her husband know? He placed a phone call to the right person at just the right time to implicate me, and I don't believe for a minute that it wasn't intentional. I can acknowledge my own mistakes, but focusing on myself hasn't kept me from questioning his motives. A couple of days earier, I told him to his face that I didn't want to see her anymore, and I meant it. He even apologized to me for her "leading me on." So why did he do it? Did he assume the school knew more than he did about something going on between me and his wife? Did he not like the visit I paid to her place of work? That wasn't a social visit, just me desperately trying to clean up the mess that my involvement with her had made to my career. My T says that I should question everything my ex ever told me, so I don't know if I should believe this, but my ex said that he accused me of visiting her at work in an attempt to get pity from her, that it was another one of my schemes! I never had any schemes! I was trying my best to get out of that entire situation with her. I don't like being pigeon-holed into being some manipulative womanizer who was trying to brainwash his wife. That's not who I am. I just made some bad choices and every attempt I made to get myself out of the hole I found myself in only got me in deeper. That's an entirely different scenario than me chasing another man's wife. Should the school care? No. But shouldn't someone? Is it wrong of me to want some kind of recognition for trying to do the right thing?

Shortly after the husband's return, I came home one day to find about ten messages on my machine, all from my ex.  Among them was one message from him saying, among other things, "Today is our wedding anniversary, and I would like to request that you do not contact my wife today out of respect for our relationship."  You know what frustrates me most about that message (other than the fact that he felt some need to tell me not to call his wife when it was actually her who called me everyday)?  It is him telling me to respect their relationship. This was during a time when she was trying to get sex from me because she couldn't get it from him due to health issues, and he's telling me to respect that relationship! She doesn't respect that relationship! I was not what was wrong with his marriage. Why did he insist on seeing me as the problem? I get that I'm supposed to focus on me. I get that I'm supposed to own up to my mistakes and accept responsibility for them. But I still can't help but look at the way it all played out and see nothing but injustice in it all. I didn't deserve this. I was trying to walk away. He seemed to view the situation as he and I fighting over her. But it wasn't like that. I wasn't fighting for her. I was trying to step away. I lost everything while he gets to hold on to his illusions of being in a loving marriage to a faithful wife while I am made out to be the villian who was trying to take it all from him. Is it wrong of me to want to speak out?  What I can't forgive myself for is my own inaction. When she initially told me that she wanted to leave him to be with me, I went along with it. When she later told me that she wasn't going to leave him, I went along with that too. I never even tried to fight for her or pursuade her otherwise. When she insisted that we continue to meet, despite how uncomfortable I was with it, to tutor her, I went along with that as well. I just swallowed whatever I was feeling and passively went along with whatever was happening at the time. This continued right up until I lost my job. She quickly forgives him for calling the school while I am made to be the convenient scapegoat of the whole thing so that their marriage can remain unscathed, and what do I do? Just go along with it as usual! This is too much. How can I respect myself if I just let this slide and move on?
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« Reply #21 on: February 09, 2017, 05:51:43 PM »

I'm going to now share my story of how I lost my job. I apologize if this turns out to be a lengthy post. I'm going to try to keep it as brief as possible, but I'll be happy to elaborate on specifics if there is a need. Here goes... .
[snip]
 That's not who I am. I just made some bad choices and every attempt I made to get myself out of the hole I found myself in only got me in deeper. That's an entirely different scenario than me chasing another man's wife. Should the school care? No. But shouldn't someone?

As you said, a lot of bad choices were made, on all sides it seems.
We live and we learn.

Excerpt
Is it wrong of me to want some kind of recognition for trying to do the right thing?

I think... .given the outcome... .it's best not to seek any recognition at all.
It will only have negative consequences for your future I think.
It's best to learn from this whatever you can learn and then build your future.

Excerpt
You know what frustrates me most about that message (other than the fact that he felt some need to tell me not to call his wife when it was actually her who called me everyday)?  It is him telling me to respect their relationship. This was during a time when she was trying to get sex from me because she couldn't get it from him due to health issues, and he's telling me to respect that relationship!

Well, he is or was married to her. I understand why you're frustrated, but I see it from his point of view also.
He is most likely in denial.

I've read so many BPD experiences by now - I could very easily see the husband being one of the people starting a thread here, and you being his replacement.
Him in denial, shame, guilt - wondering how he can salvage the relationship. Aching from her infidelity. Despising you.

I don't know the full story and it's not my place to judge either.
One good piece of advice I received and took onboard in the Aftermath of the BPD relationship:
"Never get involved with someone who has more problems than you"

In that context, her still being involved with her husband, on any level, was going to make this a complicated situation

Honestly (and speaking as someone who has been betrayed), I think you were pretty lucky. Crimes of Passion are common in BPD relationships.

Excerpt
I was not what was wrong with his marriage. Why did he insist on seeing me as the problem?

In light of what I said above, can you empathise with him?

Again, I don't know the full story, so I apologise if I have it ass-ways, but I don't find it hard to understand why he saw you as the problem - especially given what we understand about abused people in BPD relationships.

Excerpt
Is it wrong of me to want to speak out? 

That's really for you to decide.

Personally, I had an overwhelming urge to speak out. At one stage, my finger was hovering on the Social Media Publish button.

Ultimately, I'm glad I didn't. I would have regretted it. I was always relieved I had backed down the next day.
Not because it would have had repercussions for my ex - but because of the repercussions for me.

Excerpt
What I can't forgive myself for is my own inaction. When she initially told me that she wanted to leave him to be with me, I went along with it.

Can I ask you a question?

Leaving personality disorders totally aside - Would you become involved with a married person again (i.e. someone who had not separated from their partner)?

Excerpt
How can I respect myself if I just let this slide and move on?

I totally understand how you feel. I felt like that at one stage too.

I see it a bit differently now... .I'm the one who gets to move on. So are you.

She will always be disordered. And her husband - Lord have Mercy on him
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« Reply #22 on: February 10, 2017, 06:15:45 PM »

Excerpt
He is most likely in denial.

This is the problem. He's in denial. After everything that happened, he gets to just shrug it off on move on while I have to live knowing all these horrible facts that he's protected from. The reason she and I don't talk anymore is because I ended communication. I stopped returning her phone calls and emails. I bet he doesn't know that. He'll always see me as someone he had to protect his innocent wife from. She left ten messages on my machine in one day, and then he has the nerve to call me and tell me to leave his wife alone because they're trying to celebrate their anniversary! How effed up is that? Can you understand how frustrating that is for me? At the time, I decided to just let it slide because I was trying to move on. But now, two years later, I can't help but think back on that and wish I had called him then and set him straight. Its his denial that's eating away at me.

Excerpt
In light of what I said above, can you empathise with him?

No, I can't. Not one bit. I have a lot of information that could possibly destroy his marriage. Maybe I could ruin his life. But I've thus far chosen not to do this. I've spent the past two years refraining from doing this despite every fiber of my being. That's been hard. But did he hesitate? Does he regret his actions? Probably not. He laughed when he discovered I lost my job, and he doesn't even know what I could do to his marriage but chose not to. I still don't know how its possible to "fight for" a human being. I wasn't trying to do that. I was trying to walk away because she told me she wasn't leaving him. He was evidently of the mindset that we were fighting for her, and he did what he had to do to win. Its the only explanation that I have for his actions. This might not be appropriate analogy, but it'll do for now. Imagine playing chess with someone, and your letting them win. And all the while they're gloating about it, mercilessly throwing it in your face that they're beating you, completely oblivious to the fact that you're letting them win. How would that make you feel? Could you feel empathy for that person? Would you feel tempted to reveal the truth to him? I'm sure my ex's husband would feel pretty foolish learning that she called me ten times on the same day he told me to stop pursuing her, and maybe its petty and childish of me, but I'd really love to rub his face in that.

Excerpt
Again, I don't know the full story, so I apologise if I have it ass-ways, but I don't find it hard to understand why he saw you as the problem - especially given what we understand about abused people in BPD relationships.

Here's the thing. My ex is very sexual, and we became involved when he was away for six months. Looking back, I can't help but think that her interest in me was at least partially being fueled by her being sexually frustrated. She even acknowledged to me later that she would have never pursued me if he hadn't left. Given her constant sexual needs, there was no way in hell that she wasn't going to get it from someone in his absence. After learning more about BPD, I suspect that he being away also triggered some abandonment fears, which motivated her to seek out a replacement. I don't want you to think I'm saying this because I'm trying to avoid accountability for my own behavior. The school had every reason to fire me. But I honestly believe that if I had turned her down, she would have pursued someone else. He was going to come home to find her involved with another man no matter what. So I wasn't the source of his problem. He didn't seem to recognize this fact. Instead, his strategy became removing me from the picture, as if this one simple act was the thing that would fix everything. I just can't see that strategy working in the long term, and the world doesn't make sense to me if it does.

The last thing I ever wanted was to have a relationship with a woman that is sleeping in a bed with another man. It hurt to even look at her knowing that she was doing that. I agreed to tutor her only because she told me she and her husband hadn't yet reconciled, and were not physical. I was an idiot for believing that. I think she knew I'd "abandon" her if she told me otherwise. The point I'm trying to make here is that, when I did discover that she was in fact sleeping with him, I didn't get mad at him. I got mad at her. I just don't see the logic behind getting mad at him when she's the one who lied to me. Similarly, its equally foolish for him to get mad at me because she lied to him and betrayed him. I'm not innocent, but I'm also not responsible for her actions. She's just as sentient as I am and has just as much free will. Blaming me for her decisions doesn't make a lot of sense. So I do think its fallacious to single me as the problem.

Excerpt
That's really for you to decide.

Personally, I had an overwhelming urge to speak out. At one stage, my finger was hovering on the Social Media Publish button.

Ultimately, I'm glad I didn't. I would have regretted it. I was always relieved I had backed down the next day.
Not because it would have had repercussions for my ex - but because of the repercussions for me.

For me, its about self-respect. Consider this hypothetical scenario. Suppose the situation were reversed, and he did something at work that he shouldn't have. I somehow found out about it, and called his employers, and he got fired. If that happened, should I expect him to be angry with me? Should I expect some kind of retaliation from him? At the very least, should I expect a phone call from him? Probably. I can't see him not wanting to have words with me under those circumstances. Wouldn't you? Wouldn't anyone? Even his own family urged him not to call the school because it would most likely "make enemies." The fact that this kind of retaliatory behavior was being assumed and anticipated by everyone tells me that this is normal behavior under those circumstances. Maybe its not the best behavior, but its a normal human reaction, one that I'm just as entitled to as everyone else, but one that I'm expected to deny.

Excerpt
Can I ask you a question?

Leaving personality disorders totally aside - Would you become involved with a married person again (i.e. someone who had not separated from their partner)?

No way in hell! But probably not for the reasons that you think. I had already come to regret getting involved with her long before I lost my job, so that's got nothing to do with it. It was the emotional aspect of it, developing intense feelings for someone who is still connected with another man, laying in bed at night knowing she's in a bed with him. That feeling was a 1000 times worse than my job loss, and that's not something I ever want to experience again.
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« Reply #23 on: February 13, 2017, 06:50:32 AM »

Hi Nuitari,

Thanks for sharing the rest of your story with us. I realise that it takes strength and courage be vulnerable

I'm really glad that you're making progress with your new therapist.

I'm not going to go into forensic detail but for what it's worth my observations are as following.

From what you've written your ex is not responsible for you losing your job.

You had an affair with student. Your employers discovered and they initiated an investigation.

The fact that they took this step, a serious measure, is a pretty clear indication that they realised what was happening.

His phone call might have helped them come to their conclusion quicker but it's also it's more likely that they would have discovered the truth (it was true) anyway.

The fact is that you broke the terms of your contract by having an affair with a student. It may have ended by the time you lost your job that doesn't change the facts of what actually happened.

You still seem to be focussing on her husband's behaviour and his marriage.

You do not know what's happening in their marriage. You have heard one version from someone who has proved to be wholly unreliable. You know this and I think your T is absolutely right here to encourage you to question anything your ex said.

His denial and his marriage is his business - not yours. It always was.

I'm not judging you but again it's important to be clear about what actually happened here. You did have an affair with his wife in the full knowledge that she was married. I understand you feel deeply betrayed by her behaviour but her husband is in no way responsible the your choices. It's your choice to contact him again but inflicting more pain on someone you have already hurt is not a way regain your self respect.

It is likely to trigger more destructive behaviour from everyone involved and ultimately cause you even more pain.

Healthy self respect and self esteem are built on a foundation of honesty, self care and taking responsibility for your own choices.

You made some poor choices that caused you a lot of pain. Many of us have done the same and it hurts. The important thing is to understand why, learn from your mistakes and do your best to not repeat them again.

You're doing that now by going to a T and working on yourself. This is taking responsibility for your own health and happiness. It's a positive brave choice and a great investment in your own happiness and future

Keep up the good work

Reforming
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« Reply #24 on: February 13, 2017, 10:21:41 AM »

Hi Nuitari,

All of what Reforming has said is very much in line with my perspective.

Excerpt
After learning more about BPD, I suspect that he being away also triggered some abandonment fears, which motivated her to seek out a replacement. I don't want you to think I'm saying this because I'm trying to avoid accountability for my own behaviour. The school had every reason to fire me. But I honestly believe that if I had turned her down, she would have pursued someone else. He was going to come home to find her involved with another man no matter what. So I wasn't the source of his problem

I just wanted to highlight this particular paragraph; I think it would be beneficial for you to discuss these thoughts with your therapist.

When you are angry it can be difficult to see things from another perspective, but I believe this is a very important subject for you to explore with your therapist, so that you can move forward.

Good Luck
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« Reply #25 on: February 15, 2017, 05:09:18 PM »

Reforming and infjEpic,

Thank you for the feedback.  Believe it or not, discussing these things here is helpful for me. I want to comment on a few things.

Excerpt
When you are angry it can be difficult to see things from another perspective…

Everyone seems to see my situation one way, and I another.  This alone makes me suspect that there is something wrong with my thinking, but for the life of me, I don’t know what it is. I keep coming to the same conclusions over and over.

Excerpt
From what you've written your ex is not responsible for you losing your job.

And yet I’m still angry. Acknowledging and admitting the truth of that statement does nothing for me. It doesn’t change how I feel.

Excerpt
The fact is that you broke the terms of your contract by having an affair with a student. It may have ended by the time you lost your job that doesn't change the facts of what actually happened.

True. But I hope you can understand why the circumstances of how it played out would leave me frustrated. One thing that I’ve never been able to successfully communicate (neither here nor with my Ts) is the state of mind I was already in prior to losing my job. I was having a nervous breakdown. I wasn’t sleeping. I barely ate, and my hands visibly shook constantly. I wanted out of the whole mess so that I could resume some kind of normalcy to my life. I was ready to let go and move on. I even said this to both of them. It’s not easy to be accused of trying to take her away from him, of playing a game, while I was falling apart. When I look back on it, its hard not to feel like a victim.

Here’s what I don’t understand. The affair happened months prior to him calling the school.  If he did indeed know or suspect the affair like some suggests, he evidently didn’t care enough to call the school when it was happening. Why wait months after the fact? The only explanations that I can think of is that he thought it was still going on, or that I was harassing her. Neither was happening.  He had a warped view of what was going on, and this view is what prompted his actions. I hope you can understand how that would leave me frustrated. I feel like I was misrepresented.  I’m pretty sure you’d feel the same too.

Excerpt
You still seem to be focussing on her husband's behaviour and his marriage.

It’s because I don’t understand it. In life, the more serious a problem, the more complex the solution. Their marriage clearly has some serious problems, and it’s hard for me to see how one vindictive act against me is going to be thing that solves everything. That seemed to be his mindset. How can it be that simple? If his marriage is that important to him, shouldn't he want to give the problem the attention it deserves?

He was most certainly in error if he viewed me as the origin of his domestic problems, and if he didn’t, then I’m at an even greater loss to explain his behavior. It’s as if there are no expectations placed on him to think or live in reality or try to understand the real issue. He is allowed to construct his own version of what happened without anything to back it up and act purely on emotion. The only justification that people have offered me for his actions are along the lines of “He was married, she was his wife, etc.” It’s as if marriage gives someone the license to turn their brains off and avoid any serious reflection on what is going on.

Excerpt
His denial and his marriage is his business - not yours.

By that same logic, my job and my unethical behavior was my business, not his. He wasn’t affiliated with the school in any way, and we both know that his problem with me wasn’t with ethics at the workplace. It was because I was involved with his wife, a fact that he would have been no less upset about if I had become involved with her under different circumstances. His real issue was not my unethical behavior, and I can't help but see it as shallow of him that he would play that card. I can’t blame my ex for my job loss because, as you stated, I broke a contract with the school. Not my ex, but me. I made a contract with my employers and I broke it, so I completely understand the school’s reasons for terminating my employment. My ex, in like manner, broke a contract of her own, one she made with her husband. But somehow I’m seen as being responsible for that contract breach too. I don’t get that. Shouldn’t the husband’s primary concern have been with her? The person who broke a contract with him? Just like my employer’s primary concern was with me, the person who broke a contract with them? The husband focusing on me is no less foolish that the school blaming my ex for leading one of their employers astray. It’s a double standard. By your own logic, my behavior at work, no matter how dysfunctional it might have been, was my business, just like his marriage, no matter how dysfunctional, was his. Any argument that his actions were justified because I interfered in his marriage is faulty, because it objectifies my ex and her own actions. Marriage is a contract, a human construct. Remove human constructs from the picture, and what do you have? Simply three individuals making their own choices. Given that she had the contract with him, her choices and her behavior should have been his focus, right? But they weren’t. The focus was on me. The school’s focus should have been on me. I’m not arguing that point. But I can’t help but see his thoughts and actions as severely misguided. Where exactly am I wrong here?

Excerpt
It's your choice to contact him again but inflicting more pain on someone you have already hurt is not a way regain your self respect.

I didn’t hurt him. She did. It seems like everyone else but me is viewing my ex as an object who played a passive role in all this, and I don’t understand that.  She was his partner and she betrayed him. She made vows to him, not me, and she broke them. What I did was wrong, but I’m not the one who hurt him. A spouse decides to betray his or her partner, and it’s the third party who hurt the betrayed spouse? Am I the only one who sees that as backward?

I would like to believe that I was deserving of his blame and his actions because I was interfering with his marriage and had an affair with “his wife.” I’ve tried telling myself this many times, but when I pick everything apart and analyze it, it just doesn't add up.
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« Reply #26 on: February 17, 2017, 03:24:35 PM »

Hi Nuitari,

I'm going to be brief because I've already offered responses to some of your questions and I'm not sure I'll help you by repeating myself.

You had an affair with another man's wife. The fact that you had decided to end it when it was discovered doesn't change this fact.  His marital problems do not legitimise your affair, excuse your behaviour or make him responsible for your affair.

You teach science so you understand chemical reactions and cause and effect... .

I have no doubt that your affair will have caused him a lot of trauma and pain. I think his anger towards you is perfectly understandable. You knew your ex was married. Did you consider the the pain and trauma your affair would inflict on her husband? When we have affairs with someone who is married how are we treating their spouse?

You seem to want to shift responsibility for your behaviour onto the husband for his marital problems and your ex for seducing and misleading you. What about your choices and responsibility?

It seems to me that a lot of your analysis of his behaviour and feelings is based on a very unreliable source and speculation. You do not know him and you do not know his marriage. How could you?

Why do you think you feel the need to focus on him? What drives this? What does it feel like when you shift the focus to your own feelings and behaviour?

Good luck

Reforming


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« Reply #27 on: February 18, 2017, 07:37:39 PM »

Reforming,

For what it’s worth, I appreciate your posts, and I do always give a lot of thought to your comments, but I have to trust in my own conclusions, and I feel that I've offered some legitimate rebuttals against many of your arguments. I need to think my way through this. I need it to make sense, and if I'm going to be honest with myself, I can't say that I’m seeing things your way. I think you and I are looking at things in fundamentally different ways, and we are going to have to agree to disagree on some points.
Excerpt

You had an affair with another man's wife

"Another man's wife."

Do you see how she plays a passive role in the language you choose to use? Why didn't my employers get angry at my ex for having an affair with "their employee?" I would be offended if they did! I’m not an object. Granted, I don't have a lot of relationship experience, and I've never been married, so maybe I'm being too idealistic, but I've always thought of spouses as being equals in a marriage. They both made vows, and they both have the responsibility of upholding them. Each carry equal responsibility, and neither party can shift that responsibility onto someone outside of it, nor can one spouse assume responsibility for the other. For him to assume a position of authority and try to end our affair without her consent or acknowledgment of her own actions and desires objectifies her. I can understand the husband feeling the way he did, but I cannot condone him acting on those feelings. Can you?

Excerpt
His marital problems do not legitimise your affair, excuse your behaviour or make him responsible for your affair.

You keep saying this like you're expecting me to disagree. I don't disagree at all. You're not fully understanding what my issue is.  

You like to interpret a lot of what I say as me trying to avoid accountability.  I’m sorry you’re seeing it that way. I don’t suppose you’d trust me to know my own feelings enough to believe me when I tell you this isn’t the case?  You can continue, if you like, to remind me of my own part that I played. And you can continue to tell me to that I need to acknowledge it, but I’m telling you that it isn’t going to help me because that isn’t addressing the root cause of my problem.

Excerpt
I have no doubt that your affair will have caused him a lot of trauma and pain.

Trust me, he’s in a much better place that I am right now.  How could he not be?

Excerpt
Did you consider the the pain and trauma your affair would inflict on her husband?

My ex initially told me that he was going to let her go. She made it sound like their marriage was ending. And I want to be clear here. We were never supposed to have "an affair." She was supposed to leave him. Would that have caused him pain if she left him for me? Yes, but isn't that due to a decision she made? She was never an object to me. I always saw her as someone making her own decisions. I can't subscribe to the idea that I was stealing something from him. That's a juvenile mentality. We were all adults making our own decisions.  If a woman decides that she wants out of her marriage, I can understand the husband taking that badly, but I can’t agree that he has a right to lash out at others for it.

Excerpt
You seem to want to shift responsibility for your behaviour onto the husband for his marital problems and your ex for seducing and misleading you.

Not at all. I just want to understand. This experience has been the most horrible, perverse, messed up thing that's ever happened to me, and over two years later, I still can’t comprehend what happened. What I saw was a husband acting out of a desire to protect his territory, while his territory was actively pursuing other men. It doesn’t make sense. Is it social convention for a betrayed spouse to blame the affair partner? Trying to make sense of what happened isn’t avoiding accountability.

And I'm not shifting blame when I say this, just stating a fact, but she did mislead me, and I have every right to be angry about that. I don’t think you can equate being angry with wanting to shift responsibility. My ex saw her husband’s actions as evidence that he loved her after all. After assuring me that she could never be with someone who could do something so shallow as to lash out me for her wanting to leave him, she suddenly sees him as some kind of hero when he did.  Their marriage seemed to have benefited from my loss, while I ironically had the means of making it worse. Could I be blamed for being tempted to do so when I had the means at my disposal?

You can’t expect a person to go through what I did and not be angry. I agree that I have to acknowledge and take responsibility for my own part in this, but if you are suggesting that I don’t have a right to be angry, you’re 100% wrong.  

Excerpt
It seems to me that a lot of your analysis of his behaviour and feelings is based on a very unreliable source and speculation. You do not know him and you do not know his marriage. How could you?

It’s true, I don’t know. This is something my T likes to remind me of.  I can only base my analysis on his actions, and his actions suggest that he thought he had something worth fighting for. If he is so miserable in that marriage, would he have been so desperate to remain in it?

Excerpt
Why do you think you feel the need to focus on him?

Because he’s in denial. This is something I’ve talked about a lot with my T. There is no other human trait that disgusts me more than denial, the act of lying to oneself, of assuming false premises and drawing conclusions (without the necessary information) for no other reason than the fact that you have an emotional investment in those beliefs. It’s weak, perverse and the husband indulged in it! It makes me sick. If there is a part of me that wants to punish him, it is for the mentality that he’s adopted.
 
Excerpt
What does it feel like when you shift the focus to your own feelings and behaviour?

I have found that focusing on my own behavior is empowering, because that is something I can control. But I still find myself focusing on their actions and trying to make sense of them. I feel that this is something I need to do. And yes, I feel anger when I think about them. Do you think I shouldn't be?
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« Reply #28 on: February 18, 2017, 08:37:31 PM »

Just wanted to add one more thing. When I focus on myself for too long, I feel like I'm running away from something. Like I'm trying to suppress something. And that's the last thing I want to do. Focusing on them makes me feel like I'm working through something. Putting the focus elsewhere leaves me feeling like I'm trying to move on without having addressed my problem.
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« Reply #29 on: February 19, 2017, 07:37:55 AM »

Reforming,

For what it’s worth, I appreciate your posts, and I do always give a lot of thought to your comments, but I have to trust in my own conclusions, and I feel that I've offered some legitimate rebuttals against many of your arguments. I need to think my way through this. I need it to make sense, and if I'm going to be honest with myself, I can't say that I’m seeing things your way. I think you and I are looking at things in fundamentally different ways, and we are going to have to agree to disagree on some points.

I'm only offering my opinions - you have every right to discount them and reach your own conclusions. In fact you need to do this


Excerpt
"Another man's wife."

Do you see how she plays a passive role in the language you choose to use? Why didn't my employers get angry at my ex for having an affair with "their employee?" I would be offended if they did! I’m not an object. Granted, I don't have a lot of relationship experience, and I've never been married, so maybe I'm being too idealistic, but I've always thought of spouses as being equals in a marriage.

You have used the argument before to define his behaviour as animalistic and possessive. I see vulnerability and pain. Almost everyone who betrayed by a partner or spouse feels overwhelming grief, pain and anger. For many the instinctive reaction is to try and protect or defend themselves and their family. I do think it's worth questioning your conclusions of his behaviour.

Your exes husband didn't trigger the investigation which caused the loss of your job and the phone transcript that you quoted below does not suggest that he was trying to get you fired

Excerpt
I was allowed to view a transcript of the phone message he left. It basically stated a knowledge that I had gotten suspended, and that he didn't want to see a teacher get fired and have his wife feel responsible. That phone call sealed the deal, because it happened before the school had the opportunity to question my ex. This proved that I had been in contact with her during my suspension. How else would her husband know? He placed a phone call to the right person at just the right time to implicate me, and I don't believe for a minute that it wasn't intentional.

I think your T is absolutely right to question your exes version of events. It's very possible that she was trying anticipate and deflect the potential fallout from her  affair being exposed by telling husband that the school were making false accusations. That you had been helping her out and she was really upset that you were going to punished for this. Her primary motive was her own self interest. She was afraid that the school would expose her affair to her husband.

If her husband really wanted to get you fired why did he not just confirm your employers suspicions and tell them that he suspected you were having an affair with his wife?

Excerpt
They both made vows, and they both have the responsibility of upholding them. Each carry equal responsibility, and neither party can shift that responsibility onto someone outside of it, nor can one spouse assume responsibility for the other. For him to assume a position of authority and try to end our affair without her consent or acknowledgment of her own actions and desires objectifies her. I can understand the husband feeling the way he did, but I cannot condone him acting on those feelings. Can you? x

He didn't break his vows - she did. He is not responsible for her choice to have an affair with you.

How did he force her to end the affair? He does not have the power to do this and he cannot compel to her stay in their marriage. She chose to do this

Excerpt
You keep saying this like you're expecting me to disagree. I don't disagree at all. You're not fully understanding what my issue is.  

You like to interpret a lot of what I say as me trying to avoid accountability.  I’m sorry you’re seeing it that way. I don’t suppose you’d trust me to know my own feelings enough to believe me when I tell you this isn’t the case?  You can continue, if you like, to remind me of my own part that I played. And you can continue to tell me to that I need to acknowledge it, but I’m telling you that it isn’t going to help me because that isn’t addressing the root cause of my problem.

I'm just offering my thoughts based on the story that you've shared. As I noted earlier I respect your right and need to reach your own conclusions.

I'm not trying to tell you what you feel - that would be disrespectful and unhelpful.

I am trying to share and describe my own feelings during a similar experience.


Excerpt
Trust me, he’s in a much better place that I am right now.  How could he not be?

I've been in his place and as you observed you haven't.  My own personal experience was that it's very painful and traumatic. His marriage, his family and his entire life is in upheaval.

Why do you think he's in a better place than you? Because she's with him?

Excerpt
My ex initially told me that he was going to let her go. She made it sound like their marriage was ending. And I want to be clear here. We were never supposed to have "an affair." She was supposed to leave him. Would that have caused him pain if she left him for me?

Maybe I have misread your older posts but I find this slightly contradictory given what you wrote then.

Excerpt
She spoke highly of her husband and said that they had always had a happy marriage

The husband returned home, and things got really messy. I get the impression that they had a pretty good marriage up to that point, and he couldn't understand her sudden animosity and lack of feelings for him

This is hardly surprising. He had no idea that you and your ex were having an affair. It was hidden from him

Excerpt
Would that have caused him pain if she left him for me?

Undoubtedly. Betrayal and abandonment can be one of the most painful experiences in life. He thought his wife loved him and your comments above suggest that she have given him no reason to think otherwise.

Excerpt
Yes, but isn't that due to a decision she made? She was never an object to me. I always saw her as someone making her own decisions. I can't subscribe to the idea that I was stealing something from him. That's a juvenile mentality. We were all adults making our own decisions.  If a woman decides that she wants out of her marriage, I can understand the husband taking that badly, but I can’t agree that he has a right to lash out at others for it.

What about transparency and honesty?

You and your ex chose to hide your affair. Her husband did not have full knowledge of what was happening because it was hidden from him by you and his wife.

This is key dynamic in affairs. Secrecy.

If she was unhappy in her marriage and wanted to end it she could have left her husband or at least communicated her feelings. Instead she chose to have an affair with you. This was her decision, not his. She also chose to end the affair. Nobody compelled her to do that.

You also chose to hid your affair from her husband and your employers though you want to expose it to him now. Why? Do you think it will change the outcome?

Excerpt
I just want to understand. This experience has been the most horrible, perverse, messed up thing that's ever happened to me, and over two years later, I still can’t comprehend what happened. What I saw was a husband acting out of a desire to protect his territory, while his territory was actively pursuing other men. It doesn’t make sense. Is it social convention for a betrayed spouse to blame the affair partner? Trying to make sense of what happened isn’t avoiding accountability.

Anger is a very natural response to injury. But I'm sorry I don't think her husband retaliated in the way that you believe. I think your T is right and that your ex is very manipulative

Excerpt
And I'm not shifting blame when I say this, just stating a fact, but she did mislead me, and I have every right to be angry about that. I don’t think you can equate being angry with wanting to shift responsibility.

We feel anger when we've been hurt or injured. For a while it can serve a positive purpose but when we hold on to it indefinitely we end up hurting ourselves. If you let go of your anger what would you feel?

Excerpt
My ex saw her husband’s actions as evidence that he loved her after all. After assuring me that she could never be with someone who could do something so shallow as to lash out me for her wanting to leave him, she suddenly sees him as some kind of hero when he did.


This is your interpretation of her behaviour and motives and ultimately it's just speculation.

Perhaps she always loved her husband and was unwilling to leave him. Perhaps she ended the affair because she was afraid of the fallout from ending her marriage. Perhaps she fell out of love with you. There are a host of reasons why people chose to end an affair and return to a marriage but it's worth noting that most affairs end like this

Excerpt
Their marriage seemed to have benefited from my loss, while I ironically had the means of making it worse. Could I be blamed for being tempted to do so when I had the means at my disposal?

We're not here to blame each other. We're here to try and help each other heal.

Affairs rarely improve marriages. You have said before that you needed their marriage to end. Why? How will this improve your life or move you forward?

Excerpt
You can’t expect a person to go through what I did and not be angry. I agree that I have to acknowledge and take responsibility for my own part in this, but if you are suggesting that I don’t have a right to be angry, you’re 100% wrong.

I don't think anyone is telling you what you should feel. That would be invalidating and controlling. Speaking of my experience I needed to work out what drove my anger

Excerpt
It’s true, I don’t know. This is something my T likes to remind me of.  I can only base my analysis on his actions, and his actions suggest that he thought he had something worth fighting for. If he is so miserable in that marriage, would he have been so desperate to remain in it?

Again your older comments quoted above suggest that this wasn't the case. You said that he and your ex believed that their marriage was happy. Their marriage may well be struggling now but given their long history, their financial commitments and their children I think why he has chosen to try and repair the damage and move on. Many people chose to do this.

Excerpt
Because he’s in denial. This is something I’ve talked about a lot with my T. There is no other human trait that disgusts me more than denial, the act of lying to oneself, of assuming false premises and drawing conclusions (without the necessary information) for no other reason than the fact that you have an emotional investment in those beliefs. It’s weak, perverse and the husband indulged in it! It makes me sick. If there is a part of me that wants to punish him, it is for the mentality that he’s adopted.

Can you see that others might view your behaviour through this exact prism?
 
I have found that focusing on my own behavior is empowering, because that is something I can control. But I still find myself focusing on their actions and trying to make sense of them. I feel that this is something I need to do. And yes, I feel anger when I think about them. Do you think I shouldn't be? [/quote]

No. I found that understanding the behaviour of others, my ex in particular was helpful. Learning about BPD, learning about the dynamic of these relationships helped me to detach and even feel compassion for myself and for my ex

It also helped to recognise that I had no control over her choices and I wasn't responsible for them.

So when I feel angry and start to blame others for the pain I feel - I did this a lot too - I made a conscious effort to shift my focus back to myself and try and understand what drives those feelings and what drove my own choices and behaviour.

It took me a while to get there but it was the most important part of my healing - understanding myself and showing myself love, compassion and forgiveness

And when I began to do that I realise that focussing on others was just a way of trying to avoid dealing with painful feelings that were there long before I met my ex.

I think if you keep working on yourself you'll get there too

Good luck and keep up the good work

Reforming
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« Reply #30 on: February 19, 2017, 09:37:33 AM »

Nuitari: this sounds super painful. I relate to a lot of your expressed feelings about the injustice of it all.

My sense, though, is that the core cause of your pain is that the woman you cared about so much was not at all who you thought. The woman you thought she was would not have made any of the choices she subsequently made. Sometimes it's harder to focus on the core betrayal and so we look for another target. She painted a picture to get you involved with her that proved quite inaccurate, about her situation, how she felt and what she would do. And you invested and believed. That's a formula for intense hurt.

If you frame what happened, all of it (his reactions; her reaction to his reactions) in terms of her not being who she seemed, and the situation not being what she painted it to be to you -- you may find that all the facts fall into place; and the grieving appropriate to such a situation can proceed.
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« Reply #31 on: February 19, 2017, 09:45:52 AM »

Excerpt
Just wanted to add one more thing. When I focus on myself for too long, I feel like I'm running away from something

In my opinion... .

Healing cannot happen until we look inward.
I'd be curious to hear, what does you therapist say about looking outward vs inward?

In my experience... .

While looking inward has been often more uncomfortable for one reason or another... . 

Looking inward has almost always been more fruitful.




Benefits of an Internal Locus of Control

In general, people with an internal locus of control:
  • Engage in activities that will improve their situation.
  • Emphasize striving for achievement.
  • Work hard to develop their knowledge, skills and abilities.
  • Are inquisitive, and try to figure out why things turned out the way they did.
  • Take note of information that they can use to create positive outcomes in the future.
  • Have a more participative management style.
Taken from:
https://www.mindtools.com/pages/article/newCDV_90.htm

Obviously, it is your choice where to put your focus.
However, I challenge you kindly... .
What the heck is the point of ruminating over another person's "bad" behavior that we cannot change?
Are you not still in the same place you were, simply upset about their bad behavior?
How many more years do you plan to ruminate over the injustices you percieve vs focusing on thriving using what you in fact CAN control?
Do you find this not to be a re victimizing of yourself by yourself?
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« Reply #32 on: February 19, 2017, 12:12:13 PM »

Reforming, thanks for your reply.

Excerpt
You have used the argument before to define his behaviour as animalistic and possessive. I see vulnerability and pain. Almost everyone who betrayed by a partner or spouse feels overwhelming grief, pain and anger. For many the instinctive reaction is to try and protect or defend themselves and their family.


When I lost my job, my ex said things went too far. But I don't see it that way. Things didn't go far enough. I wanted it to escalate. Part of me still does. The outcome doesn't matter, only what I can do. I know this sounds terrible, but that's honestly how I feel. Your above quote only makes me feel worse and more angry. If what you say is true, and it was instinct, not reason, guiding his actions, it only fuels my compulsion to do more damage to his marriage. Instinct alone should never be a justification for an act.

Excerpt
I think your T is absolutely right to question your exes version of events. It's very possible that she was trying anticipate and deflect the potential fallout from her affair being exposed by telling husband that the school were making false accusations. That you had been helping her out and she was really upset that you were going to punished for this. Her primary motive was her own self interest. She was afraid that the school would expose her affair to her husband.

My ex seemed pretty convinced that he intentionally sabatoged the investigation. She was very angry about it, to the point where she started talking about leaving again. She even tried to persuade me to call him and tell him about her and his brother so that I can "get revenge." She knew his motivations better that me, and she seemed pretty sure that he was trying to get me fired. You are right when you say she is very manipulative, and I suppose its possible that her motivations were as you outlined above, but why the need to convince me that what he did was intentional?

Excerpt
If her husband really wanted to get you fired why did he not just confirm your employers suspicions and tell them that he suspected you were having an affair with his wife?

Because she had warned him once that if he ever stooped that low as to go to my employers, they were threw. I think what he did was a clever way of telling on me without actually telling on me. It was a cheap shot.

Excerpt
He didn't break his vows - she did. He is not responsible for her choice to have an affair with you.

How did he force her to end the affair? He does not have the power to do this and he cannot compel to her stay in their marriage. She chose to do this

He told her to stop seeing me. And when that didn't work, he went over her head and told me to stop seeing her. You are right that he doesn't have the power to do this. I see his actions as him lashing out because no one was recognizing his imaginary position of authority, instead of simply realizing and accepting that he is in a loveless marriage to a woman who can't and won't reciprocate his feelings. That would have been the reasonable, mature thing to do. Instead he just shouted orders and expected others to follow, only mindful of what he wanted.

Excerpt
I've been in his place and as you observed you haven't. My own personal experience was that it's very painful and traumatic.

But you knew about your wife's affair, right? I don't think he knows about hers, and that's a big part of my problem. He doesn't have to know about her betrayal. I was temporarily used by her when it was convenient for her to be with me, and then she gets to resume her marriage when it suits her, while I lost everything. The only reason she got to resume her marriage was because I allowed it. I possibly could have ruined it. Why did I allow her the convenience of walking away and resuming her normal life after my life got wrecked? Does she even appreciate that I didn't call him? No. She just took for granted that I would keep my mouth shut and keep my feelings to myself. A person can only take so much before they have to do something. This is where I am now. This was the most traumatic event of my life, and I never reacted to it. Just sat back and watched it all happen to me. I never even raised my voice to anyone. I never had any kind of emotional reaction to what happened, and I still need to have one. That's what's normal, and that's what I need before I can move on.

My ex said that he pretty much moved on after I lost my job, as if my job loss was somehow therapeutic for him. When it came up six months later, she said he didn't even talk about it anymore, like it was all ancient history. How can it be possible that he could recover so quickly after so serious an episode, unless certain facts were kept from him? I saw the two of them in public once, at an annual festival that's held downtown where we live, and they looked happy, or at least he did. A band was playing, and he was up dancing around making a big fool of himself. If he is hurting, he's got a funny way of showing it.

Excerpt
Why do you think he's in a better place than you? Because she's with him?

Because I can't see anyone being in worse place.

Excerpt
Maybe I have misread your older posts but I find this slightly contradictory given what you wrote then.
Excerpt
She spoke highly of her husband and said that they had always had a happy marriage

The husband returned home, and things got really messy. I get the impression that they had a pretty good marriage up to that point, and he couldn't understand her sudden animosity and lack of feelings for him

She claimed that they had a relatively good marriage, and called her husband a "good man." But she said that she just didn't love him, and that she wanted out. I took her word for it.
 
Excerpt
You and your ex chose to hide your affair. Her husband did not have full knowledge of what was happening because it was hidden from him by you and his wife.

I know this might be hard to believe given the circumstances, but I'm actually a very honest person. I never wanted to hide things from him. The only reason he knew of my existence in the first place was because I urged her to tell him. I'm not trying to pin the whole thing on my ex. I'm really not, but I didn't find out until later how little he knew of what was going on. I feel like such a fool now. If she were really serious about leaving him, why keep the affair hidden? I was played, and then she gets to go back to her husband who conveniently sees the whole thing as another man trying to brainwash his wife. Can you see why I would be tempted to expose her? To have it all blow up in her face? You may not agree with it, but can you at least see my temptation?

Excerpt
This is key dynamic in affairs. Secrecy.

I know this is going to sound extremely silly (believe it or not but I am actually very self-aware of how I'm coming off here), but I never meant to have an affair. It was never supposed to turn into that. That doesn't excuse all that happened later, but this was someone who I wanted to spend the rest of my life with, who I thought felt the same way. It was never supposed to be an affair. It was supposed to be a beginning of a life together (I feel so foolish admitting to these beliefs now). It was never supposed to be she and I seeing each other behind her unknowing husband's back. I really hate that this is what it turned into.

Excerpt
You also chose to hid your affair from her husband and your employers though you want to expose it to him now. Why?

I never chose to hide anything from her husband. When I look back, I see all these missed opportunities for communication with him that I didn't take advantage of, and I'm really kicking myself now for it. How much of his ignorance and denial am I responsible for? There were times when he wanted to have a dialogue with me, and I passed it up. Sometimes it was because I was trying to move on and not "stir the pot" anymore. And sometimes I didn't want say anything that would make life bad for my ex. But now, I don't care about any of that. I'm really kicking myself now for not opening up some kind of dialogue with him when it was relevant. I realize now that I needed that, and still do.

Excerpt
You have said before that you needed their marriage to end. Why?

Because that's what would actually make sense, as opposed to two people shrugging the whole thing off and moving on in their marriage without being at all disturbed by what happened. I was pretty angry when I made that above comment. I don't actually need their marriage end. I would just like to know that there was some kind of fallout from the affair, that this incident had some lingering repercussions, something they had to work through. That's what makes sense to me. She did mislead me and play with my feelings to the point where my life fell apart. For them to be able to walk away and not even have any long-term memory of the event is incomprehensible to me. I just want some kind of acknowledgment.

Excerpt
Can you see that others might view your behaviour through this exact prism?

Completely, but with one important difference. If I'm making false assumptions and drawing wrong conclusions, it isn't because of denial. I feel that I'm making an honest effort to understand what happened. If I'm not drawing the correct conclusions, it isn't from a lack of trying.
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« Reply #33 on: February 24, 2017, 07:56:56 PM »

Excerpt
I think your T is absolutely right to question your exes version of events. It's very possible that she was trying anticipate and deflect the potential fallout from her  affair being exposed by telling husband that the school were making false accusations. That you had been helping her out and she was really upset that you were going to punished for this. Her primary motive was her own self interest. She was afraid that the school would expose her affair to her husband.

I've been thinking a lot about this, and it actually jogged my memory about something that was said during the investigation that never made sense, and now I think it does. I'm always being told to move on and focus on other things, but I can't because I'm still putting the pieces together. Two years after the fact, I feel that I'm still making new discoveries. There is something that never added up. My ex and I were both questioned by the school separately. My ex claimed that the lady questioning her said that I was being investigated due to suspicion of being involved with a number of female students, and that my ex was just one of many. I was shocked and outraged that the school would say something like that. During my eight years there, I was always professional and, until becoming involved with my ex, never did anything to warrant disciplinary action. After losing my job, I arranged a meeting with the woman who conducted the investigation, the same woman who questioned my ex, and during the meeting I questioned her about this accusation. She seemed very surprised and denied ever saying it. Now, I have two theories about this... .

1) The woman who questioned my ex said this to try to get a reaction out of her. The school never knew about our affair, only suspected it, and this was said in an effort to gauge my ex's reaction to the news that I was seeing other women.

2) My ex made it up. I don't know why it took me so long to consider this possibility.

I was told by my employers that the husband visited the school demanding to know the "real" reason why I was fired. So he was clearly having trouble buying that nothing inappropriate was going on. Could my ex have made up this false accusation of me seeing other female students to avoid a fallout with her husband, to make him think my being fired was due to reasons that extended beyond her? Its possible that she decided to tell me the same story of false accusations by the school so that in the event that the husband and I ever talked, the lie couldn't be traced back to her. Could my ex really be that conniving and manipulative? Or am I making connections that aren't there?

That she could make something like that about me really hurts, and it makes me feel foolish for risking so much to be with this woman. I know I never told the story in full of the face-to-face meeting that the husband and I had, but I stood in front of him and looked him in the eye and told him I loved her. I did this at great risk to my physical health and my career. That's how much she meant to me. That she could turn around and make up false accusations and further drag my name through the mud just to save her own skin really hurts. How could she do that? The realization that she most likely did this just brings all the pain back in full. I don't want to believe that she did this, but the more I think about it, the more it makes sense. That I was willing to stand in front of her husband and proclaim my undying love for her while she is making this stuff up about me is humiliating, and I can't begin to describe how much this hurts, or how angry I am. She played with my feelings to the point where I inadvertently threw away everything that mattered to me, and then she further stabs me in the back so that she can avoid accountability with her husband? If she can do that, she's not a human being. I don't know how to get over that kind of betrayal. I want to expose her to him so badly.  
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« Reply #34 on: April 29, 2017, 07:11:16 PM »

I apologize for resurrecting this thread. I feel like I'm beating a dead horse at this point. I promise I will stop. I don't want anyone to feel obligated to respond. I'm not looking to start a big debate or anything.  My recent session with my T has really opened my eyes about some things, and I just wanted to share.

Something has shifted for me in a profound way. Lately, I've been able to look at things with a kind of clarity that I couldn't before. I've become able to step back and see the big picture.  My whole experience with my ex tells a story, and its one that I don't like. I could never see it all until now, and I'm left feeling like an idiot that I couldn't see things that were so blatantly obvious. I shared things with my T yesterday that I never told anyone. I went into great length describing how it all began with my ex, and I went into great detail regarding conversations that I had with her (specific things my ex said, etc), and much to my horror, my T actually agreed with my assessment that my ex consciously manipulated and used me. I've been saying that for a while now, but I feel like I'm only now able to truly see it. I can't begin to describe what I'm feeling right now. Three years after the fact, and I'm only just now waking up to what happened, and I feel humiliated. None of it was real. I never knew the real her. All I saw was a character she was playing. The first time in my life I decided to share my feelings with someone, and she used them for her own personal benefit. I hate her so much. She's not even a human being to me anymore, and I wish nothing but terrible things for her. I've been visiting this board for a while, and it seems to be the general consensus among members here that our ex's loved us the best way they knew how, until they couldn't anymore, that the feelings they showed us were real, only unsustainable.  This was not my experience. I can no longer pretend that there was anything genuine about her, and I no longer wish to. She once suggested that we should only "have fun" until her husband came back, and immediately tried to pass it off as a joke when she saw that it upset me. But she wasn't joking.  My T said that she was "testing the waters." I have a million other stories like that one, but I was too dumb to see their implications at the time. She led me on with false promises and false displays of emotion so that I could satisfy a temporary need for her. That is what happened.  She never had any real feelings for me. She never was going to leave her husband. It was all a lie. My T actually understands why I'm so angry, something that I was never able to properly convey here. I decided to gamble my job for something else. That was a choice I consciously made. But I'm not angry that the gamble didn't pay off. I'm angry because there was never really a gamble to begin with. It was all a carefully constructed illusion. She misrepresented the thing that I was gambling my job for. That's why I'm angry.  That job was the best thing that ever happened to me, and I traded it for sex!  That is grim reality. It wasn't because I was finally able to connect with another human being in a way I didn't know I was capable of. It wasn't because an amazing and beautiful woman fell in love with someone like me. It wasn't any of those things I believed at the time. The truth is I traded my job for sex! How can I be ok with that truth?

My T is always quick to point out that I played a big part in it too, but it doesn't do much to lessen the hate that I feel. I behaved badly and it cost me my job. Its a fact. She played with my feelings. That's also a fact. Those two facts aren't mutually exclusive. The truth of one doesn't negate the other. I fail to see how acknowledging one fact is supposed to lessen the anger I feel over the other one. No one deserves to be played with in that way. No one. How can I not be angry?

My T says that this recent shift for me is progress. I hope she's right. She also understands my need to contact the husband and tell him the full truth, another thing I could never seem to communicate here. She doesn't discourage me from doing so, only warns me to think seriously about the consequences first. I've spent a long time wondering why therapy wasn't helping me to alleviate that erg to remove her mask. I'm beginning to think that my desire to contact the husband was never a problem that needed therapy. My real problem is that I haven't done so. I've been using therapy for the wrong reasons. I've been using it as a means to lead me out of a tough dilemma. I can see good reasons to not involve myself with those people further. My T calls it "throwing good money after bad." But if I can't speak up after everything that happened, there has to be something seriously wrong with me. Its a tough call. I was hoping that therapy could point me to the right answer, as if this were a math problem. But there is no right answer, only a tough decision. I know all the cold hard facts, and I know the risks. There's nothing left for me to "figure out." The only thing left is the decision, and still I'm stuck on what to do.

On an unrelated note, I learned that I may be autistic! I evidently have some mild traits. My T isn't qualified to make that diagnosis herself, but she suggested that I see some colleagues of hers who are. Right now my mind is still spinning from everything that my ex put me through (it still feels like those events just happened) to even think about that, but I told my T that I may pursue that in the future. She thinks it may go a long way toward explaining my difficulty understanding and navigating social situations that everyone else seems to take for granted.
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« Reply #35 on: April 29, 2017, 07:42:00 PM »

"But there is no right answer, only a tough decision."

That rings true to me. I think people have been trying to help you weigh the true costs as thoroughly as possible because the stakes for you are very high. 

I'm glad to hear that you feel more clarity.
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« Reply #36 on: April 29, 2017, 09:01:21 PM »

Welcome to Stage II: Anger. 

Excerpt
Lesson 1: Healing, the big picture 

Where are you going?  This is the road map.  Please refer back to it often.  It's important to see healing as a process and to constantly be marking your progress.  You need to know where you are going and the pathway there if you are ever going to reach healing.  Without this, many just get stuck in a stage without realizing that it is a stage.



How grief passes through us: The Five Stages of Grieving

Denial- This is when we and our partner are on different page about our commitments to the relationship. This stage is filled with disbelief and denial.  Often in this stage we are engaged in relationship struggles and are expecting our partner to respond in the way that someone in a relationship would respond. However, they are in a very different, less caring place.  We are confused, hurt, put off by their behavior.

Anger- Anger often the reaction to being hurt and/or fearful, and helpless to do anything about it. The greater the loss, the greater the reaction. Anger is a very complex part of grieving - many of us stumble in this stage with either unhealthy anger (misdirected, trapping) or no anger (no release).  We need to determine why we're angry and focus our feeling on the true issues - if not, anger can imprison us.

Bargaining- Bargaining is that stage of the break-up when you’re trying to make deals and compromises. It’s when you start talking about how an open relationship might be a possibility or a long-distance thing could work. It’s when you say to your partner, “if you just did this then I could do that and it would work”. It’s when you say to yourself that you’ll do x, y, z to be a better spouse so that the relationship doesn’t have to end.

Depression- After all of the denial and the anger and the bargaining have been done and we realize that things really are starting to end and we become depressed. We fell helpless and powerless and overwhelmed with sadness about the loss that we are experiencing.  This acknowledgment often starts the serious process of us trying to understand what happened.

Acceptance- Acceptance is a final stage when we have finally sorting out what happened, accepted it and are more interested in moving forward than looking back. Acceptance can take a lot of time and a lot of processing. It involves understanding the situation, understand our role / understand their role, understanding what can be learned, and letting go / moving forward. 

Note: Each person mourns a loss differently.  You may not experience these stages in one fluid order. You may go through some of the stages more than once. Sometimes during the bargaining stages we recycle the relationship. Or an event will trigger us to experience one of these stages again - like hearing your ex-partner is to remarry.
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« Reply #37 on: April 29, 2017, 09:06:23 PM »

Excerpt
On an unrelated note, I learned that I may be autistic! I evidently have some mild traits. My T isn't qualified to make that diagnosis herself, but she suggested that I see some colleagues of hers who are. Right now my mind is still spinning from everything that my ex put me through (it still feels like those events just happened) to even think about that, but I told my T that I may pursue that in the future. She thinks it may go a long way toward explaining my difficulty understanding and navigating social situations that everyone else seems to take for granted.
I know a bunch of folks with ASD.  This makes a lot of sense to, persons with ASD have trouble with theory of mind, perspective taking, could explain why you struggled stuck for quite a bit there... .redoing the same thought process, perseverating in a way of rigid thinking. Not something that I can discern via text, but would explain a bit for me, imo.  Can now see why your struggle would be way harder to sort out... .needing to be patient with yourself.
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« Reply #38 on: April 29, 2017, 09:09:27 PM »

Thought pasting other bit may be more helpful than previous one.
Excerpt
Abandonment Cycle The Five Stages

If your relationship partner left you or if you left because you felt you had no choice, you will likely pass through an abandonment cycle.

Shattering - Your relationship is breaking apart. Your hopes and dreams are Shattered. You are devastated, bewildered. You succumb to despair and panic. You feel hopeless and have Suicidal feelings. You feel Symbiotically attached to your lost love, mortally wounded, as if you’ll die without them. You are in Severe pain, Shock, Sorrow. You’ve been Severed from your primary attachment. You’re cut off from your emotional life-line.

Withdrawl – painful Withdrawal from your lost love. The more time goes on, the more all of the needs your partner was meeting begin to impinge into your every Waking moment. You are in Writhing pain from being torn apart. You yearn, ache, and Wait for them to return. Love-withdrawal is just like Heroin Withdrawal – - each involves the body’s opiate system and the same physical symptoms of intense craving. During Withdrawal, you are feeling the Wrenching pain of love-loss and separation – - the Wasting, Weight loss, Wakefulness, Wishful thinking, and Waiting for them to return. You crave a love-fix to put you out of the WITHDRAWAL symptoms.

Internalizing – you Internalize the rejection and cause Injury to your self esteem. This is the most critical stage of the cycle when your wound becomes susceptible to Infection and can create permanent scarring. You are Isolated, riddled with Insecurity, self- Indictment and self-doubt. You are preoccupied with ‘If only regrets’ – - If only you had been more attentive, more sensitive, less demanding, etc. You beat yourself up with regrets over the relationship and Idealize your abandoner at the expense of your own self Image.

Anger – the turning point in the grief process when you begin to fight back. You attempt to Reverse the Rejection by Refusing to accept all of the blame for the failed relationship, and feel surges of Rage against your abandoner. You Rail against the pain and isolation you’ve been in. Agitated depression and spurts of anger displaced on your friends and family are common during this turbulent time, as are Revenge and Retaliation fantasies toward your abandoner.

Lifting – your anger helped to externalize your pain. Gradually, as your energy spurts outward, it Lifts you back into Life. You begin to Let go. Life distracts you and gradually Lifts you out the grief cycle. You feel the emergence of strength, wiser for the painful Lessons you’ve Learned. And if you’re engaged in the process of recovery, you get ready to Love again.



How we heal ourselves: The Five Stages of Detachment

Acknowledgment- we begin by acknowledging and working with our feelings. read more

Self-Inquiry - we then probe the feelings - it's important to find a way to explore your feelings that allows you both to be present with them and to stand a little aside from them. read more

Processing - become aware of what has been useful in the journey you've just taken, regardless of how it all turned out.  read more

Creative Action - start something new with real enthusiasm for the doing of it, rather than out of the need to prove something. read more

Freedom - the stage when thinking about your loss (or the thing you desire) doesn't interfere with your normal feelings of well-being. read more

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How wrong it is for a woman to expect the man to build the world she wants, rather than to create it herself.~Anais Nin
Nuitari
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What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 240


« Reply #39 on: June 27, 2017, 12:04:37 PM »

Just wanted to give an update on what's been going on with me. I've actually learned a lot about myself and gained a lot of clarity sense last posting in this thread, and it has spun everything on its head. I have Asperger's! It is a mild form of autism. People with Asperger's have trouble picking up on social cues.  They lack the ability to "read" body language and facial expressions.  Verbal communication is therefore often the only means they have of relating to others.  You can also probably imagine that its difficult for one with Asperger's to express feelings or show emotions.  My T has been encouraging me to read up and learn what I can outside of our sessions, and I'm shell shocked at how much of myself I see in what I'm reading. My inability to relate to others and successfully express myself has made relationships nearly impossible, even platonic ones. So I focused on my career, until she came along and gave me false hope. When my ex first asked to see my apartment, I had no idea that meant sex. I took her literally, that she just wanted to see my apartment. That is how lost I am. I don't know what someone is thinking or feeling unless they explicitly tell me. Likewise, when I want someone to know what I'm thinking/feeling, I tell them. I don't show them, just tell them, and I'm learning that telling is only a small part of how people communicate in relationships. How to "show" is completely foreign to me. I know that my ex is extremely selfish, likely because of a disorder, but I can't help but think that my own shortcomings and failure to properly communicate my feelings went a long way toward making her lose respect for me. It must have difficult for her to take my feelings seriously when she could not see them.  She always seemed very aware that her husband had feelings, that her actions hurt him, but not so with me, and I'm the one who lost everything.

I'm seeing now that this isn't about my job, but a need to communicate. I've never felt that need more than I do now. I feel like a mime in a box, and no one can hear me. That's frustrating when I've endured so much. I keep asking myself what I could have done differently to better communicate with her, and to him as well. I don't know what his motivations were for calling the school, but they appeared to stem from a belief that I was relentlessly "pursuing" her. But that isn't reality. He called the school during a time when I was trying to step away. He wrote his own script of what was happening, assumed my motivations for me, and I never spoke out against it. I didn't even try, and I need to. I've done many wrong things, and I don't ask for his forgiveness. He has every right to be angry at me. I can even admit that I deserved to lose my job. But all of that is beside the point. I just want him to understand. It wasn't just my poor decisions that led to my life falling apart, but my inability to effectively communicate as well. I don't know how to fix that. Even though the damage is already done, its important to me that I still try.
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