Need Help: False Allegations Involving Children

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

My history with my ex-wife was posted recently to the thread "Co-Parenting Challenges After Divorce" on this board.  We are currently in a dispute over Date Night time spent with the girls (she has 75% custodial time with the girls so for each 1 day period they are with her I've taken them out to dinner on dates), where lately she has been restricting my established access to the girls in order to create more time with them and her new husband.  My lawyer is involved in this and things are moving toward mediation (ultimately court order if she continues to be difficult) - I'm feeling good that will be resolved in time and I'm continuing to push for what is best for my daughters. 

As a side product to this, my ex-wife just sent an e-mail that contains a false allegation involving the medical care of our 5 year old (who has an advanced heart condition). 

She wrote:

Hi [me],

I wanted to have an open dialogue about [DD 5yr old] medication. This evening when I was giving her the medicine, [DD 5yr old] mentioned that she doesn't get amoxicillin, epanded (enalripril) vitamin or aspirinat your house. I asked if she already took half a tablet of aspirin since the doctors have increased her dose to half a tablet twice a day. She said no. [DD 8yr old] chimed in and said that [DD 5yr old] only gets the shot (lovenox) when with you.

In fact both girls were adamant that [DD 5yr old] never gets any medicine at your house except for lovenox, which I find hard to believe. I know you and I have been actively discussing if we were going to continue administering lovenox, however I'm not aware of any concerns regarding any of the other medicines she receives.

Are you giving her these medicines? Do you have any concerns with her current medication that we need to discuss?

[DD 5yr old] is supposed to have another appointment at CNMC later next week, which is dependent upon her getting a consistent and proper dose of aspirin - half tablet, twice a day.  If she doesn't get the correct dosing the result of the blood test is skewed. The doctors could determine that aspirin is not an anti-coagulant for [DD 5yr old]/her body rejects it when it actually is helping her, or possibly increase it causing a dose that is too high for her body to handle.

Any insight?

I reacted too quickly in sending her this immediately as a response (my mistake in feeding her need for an emotional reaction).  I shouldn't have written from an emotional place -- my deeper frustration at her making this up and bringing our daughters into the middle of it (blaming their words; which I'm sure they never spoke):

I wrote:

      I do not appreciate you lieing about this. I am aware of [DD 5yr old] shot and medication schedule, she receives them during bedtime and in the mornings. What are you trying to pull here?

Getting what she wanted from it, she then steered the conversation in that direction, and tried to keep it about us... .

She wrote:

I do not appreciate being called a liar or accusing me of trying to "pull something". This type of a response does not facilitate  productive conversations between us.
A few weeks ago we all had an email exchange about being able to openly communicate with one another to better co-parent the girls when this exact type of situation occurs. In that email you said [new husband] and I could come to you and you wouldn't feel attacked.

How would you recommend we communicate when the girls come home saying one thing and we want to discuss it with you?

I wrote back (what I should have responded with originally):

This is about [DD 5yr old], not us.  You are misinformed about her shots/medication routine.  She receives them all.  Is there anything relating to [5 yr old] and her medication schedule you are still concerned about or want to discuss?

She didn't want to resolve the issue about our daughter... .wanted to talk more about my initial response (ugh)

You're right - this specific example is about [DD 5yr old], but it's also about us. 

You and I need to be able to freely communicate and be able to ask one another questions when there is a discrepancy between what the girls say and what we assume is occurring at the other parents house. 

I assumed you were giving the medicine, but the girls said otherwise.  If I hear the girls say something of importance - you and I would both agree that [DD 5yr old] medicine is - I have the responsibility to follow up and investigate or ask hard questions.  Undoubtedly you would do the same.

We recently had an email exchange about co-parenting and how each parent shouldn't feel attacked when faced with difficult conversations.  We love our girls and want what is best for them.  In this situation, asking if all medicines were given is what's best for [DD 5yr old].

I'd like to understand - in a productive manner - why there is a descrepency between what the girls said and what you said without putting them in the middle.

So I responded with:

I cannot address your "discrepancy" issue but I can assure you that [DD 5yr old] is getting her medications when she is with me.

and she finally wrote:

Great. Thanks [me]. I assumed as much, but needed to do my due diligence and ask the question.

I've learned how reacting emotionally fuels her and makes things worse... .despite that I still make this mistake on occasion (really working to stop that).  She backed down as soon as the conversation was directed back to the issue at hand (our daughter).

Should I be concerned about her, with this?  I know that exes are capable of all kinds of damaging and destructive behavior if/when they feel threatened about their custody of the children.  What can I do to protect myself from such allegations as the ones above?  It scares me, frankly. :\

I don't doubt that the next time I see her she's going to have prepped my youngest to say something she wants her to in regard to this.  I'm already anticipating it and stopping it short saying "this is something you and I should talk about... .without the children."

[Thomas0311]

My history with my ex-wife was posted recently to the thread "Co-Parenting Challenges After Divorce" on this board.  We are currently in a dispute over Date Night time spent with the girls (she has 75% custodial time with the girls so for each 1 day period they are with her I've taken them out to dinner on dates), where lately she has been restricting my established access to the girls in order to create more time with them and her new husband.  My lawyer is involved in this and things are moving toward mediation (ultimately court order if she continues to be difficult) - I'm feeling good that will be resolved in time and I'm continuing to push for what is best for my daughters. 

As a side product to this, my ex-wife just sent an e-mail that contains a false allegation involving the medical care of our 5 year old (who has an advanced heart condition). 

She wrote:

Hi [me],

I wanted to have an open dialogue about [DD 5yr old] medication. This evening when I was giving her the medicine, [DD 5yr old] mentioned that she doesn't get amoxicillin, epanded (enalripril) vitamin or aspirinat your house. I asked if she already took half a tablet of aspirin since the doctors have increased her dose to half a tablet twice a day. She said no. [DD 8yr old] chimed in and said that [DD 5yr old] only gets the shot (lovenox) when with you.

In fact both girls were adamant that [DD 5yr old] never gets any medicine at your house except for lovenox, which I find hard to believe. I know you and I have been actively discussing if we were going to continue administering lovenox, however I'm not aware of any concerns regarding any of the other medicines she receives.

Are you giving her these medicines? Do you have any concerns with her current medication that we need to discuss?

[DD 5yr old] is supposed to have another appointment at CNMC later next week, which is dependent upon her getting a consistent and proper dose of aspirin - half tablet, twice a day.  If she doesn't get the correct dosing the result of the blood test is skewed. The doctors could determine that aspirin is not an anti-coagulant for [DD 5yr old]/her body rejects it when it actually is helping her, or possibly increase it causing a dose that is too high for her body to handle.

Any insight?

I reacted too quickly in sending her this immediately as a response (my mistake in feeding her need for an emotional reaction).  I shouldn't have written from an emotional place -- my deeper frustration at her making this up and bringing our daughters into the middle of it (blaming their words; which I'm sure they never spoke):

I wrote:

      I do not appreciate you lieing about this. I am aware of [DD 5yr old] shot and medication schedule, she receives them during bedtime and in the mornings. What are you trying to pull here?

Getting what she wanted from it, she then steered the conversation in that direction, and tried to keep it about us... .

She wrote:

I do not appreciate being called a liar or accusing me of trying to "pull something". This type of a response does not facilitate  productive conversations between us.
A few weeks ago we all had an email exchange about being able to openly communicate with one another to better co-parent the girls when this exact type of situation occurs. In that email you said [new husband] and I could come to you and you wouldn't feel attacked.

How would you recommend we communicate when the girls come home saying one thing and we want to discuss it with you?

I wrote back (what I should have responded with originally):

This is about [DD 5yr old], not us.  You are misinformed about her shots/medication routine.  She receives them all.  Is there anything relating to [5 yr old] and her medication schedule you are still concerned about or want to discuss?

She didn't want to resolve the issue about our daughter... .wanted to talk more about my initial response (ugh)

You're right - this specific example is about [DD 5yr old], but it's also about us. 

You and I need to be able to freely communicate and be able to ask one another questions when there is a discrepancy between what the girls say and what we assume is occurring at the other parents house. 

I assumed you were giving the medicine, but the girls said otherwise.  If I hear the girls say something of importance - you and I would both agree that [DD 5yr old] medicine is - I have the responsibility to follow up and investigate or ask hard questions.  Undoubtedly you would do the same.

We recently had an email exchange about co-parenting and how each parent shouldn't feel attacked when faced with difficult conversations.  We love our girls and want what is best for them.  In this situation, asking if all medicines were given is what's best for [DD 5yr old].

I'd like to understand - in a productive manner - why there is a descrepency between what the girls said and what you said without putting them in the middle.

So I responded with:

I cannot address your "discrepancy" issue but I can assure you that [DD 5yr old] is getting her medications when she is with me.

and she finally wrote:

Great. Thanks [me]. I assumed as much, but needed to do my due diligence and ask the question.

I've learned how reacting emotionally fuels her and makes things worse... .despite that I still make this mistake on occasion (really working to stop that).  She backed down as soon as the conversation was directed back to the issue at hand (our daughter).

Should I be concerned about her, with this?  I know that exes are capable of all kinds of damaging and destructive behavior if/when they feel threatened about their custody of the children.  What can I do to protect myself from such allegations as the ones above?  It scares me, frankly. :\

I don't doubt that the next time I see her she's going to have prepped my youngest to say something she wants her to in regard to this.  I'm already anticipating it and stopping it short saying "this is something you and I should talk about... .without the children."

[takingandsending]

Thomas,

I just learned about communication strategy BIFF ... .brief, informative, friendly, firm. You can see how response 1 and response 2 differ in relation to that approach and why response 2 gained traction. It hurts to be questioned in our parenting of our children - my STBxW does this to me all the time. I could do fifteen things for the boys that she had asked in a day and be questioned at length over one thing that I didn't do (how could you forget to trim their nails?). But in this case, your D5 is facing what sounds like a serious medical condition, so getting this right is important. Your ex may be making up what D5 and D8 said, but in the end, you care about D5's health above all, so it is important to stay on that track. And I think you did an amazing job of doing just that after your initial response.

Possibly documenting your care for D5 on a day planner or the like would alleviate any future discussions or questions? I would not advise putting words in quotation, because it communicates contempt, disbelief or disdain, which won't improve the situation. pwBPD already look for invalidation everywhere, so unless you are hoping to provoke her reactivity and make your situation worse, I would resist the urge to use those quotes, as it will appear you are invalidating her. This is not meant as criticism. It is very hard living with or parenting with people who suffer from this illness.

[ambivalentmom]

Good Afternoon,
     I can tell from just three posts that you are very intelligent and insightful on what's going on, but this is very recent and draining you mentally/emotionally.  I think you were right about sending the email too quickly and I would even suggest having an unbiased party to assist you in writing responses (I still have someone review and tweak mine).  I even see a benefit of how you posted on this site.  We can offer suggestions and ideas that you can use with your responses.  I agree with takingandsending about using BIFF.  Here's my response to her first email:

Good Morning,
     I am currently administering this at this time.  I don't have any concerns about her current medication and will talk with you and the doctor before making any changes.  Thank you for checking with me and for letting me know about the appointment.

It's going to be difficult because her initial email is very accusing, but at the same time, medicine is something to communicate.  For the emails, you almost need a translator to change her emails into "reasonable person language". 

I wouldn't agree with the day planner, though, don't go out of your way unless you think it's a good idea to have for you.  I hope this helps and take care. 

[flourdust]

I don't find her initial email accusatory. I get accusatory emails all the time from my ex. She would have written something like ":)D says she is not getting her medicine from you. That's medicine's incredibly important, and you can't just blow it off. If you're not going to give her the medicine, I'll talk to my attorney about changing the custody plan. Explain to me why you refuse to give our daughter her medicine. I await your response, and I am cc:ing my lawyer on this."

Your initial response was extremely triggered and antagonistic. You started out by calling her a liar. The sentence from your later message would have been a better response and could have ended this exchange:

I can assure you that [DD 5yr old] is getting her medications when she is with me.

What do you think?

[david]

This site used to say use a three to 5 sentence rule in communication. If you start getting longer than that you are probably saying too much.
 
I would have originally replied , " DD 5yr old is getting her medications as the doctor prescribed."

 Trying to explain/justify/argue/vent etc just doesn't work. It takes practice. In the beginning I used to write a response and save it. I would look at it after I was no longer upset with whatever accusation my ex was making. I found that I was writing too much and got better at writing shorter and more to the point emails.

Also, if you go back to court, emails that are short and to the point look better for the judge.

[takingandsending]

For what it's worth, I suggested the day planner because it sounds like, from other posts, that xw and new husband are trying to reduce custody for Thomas, so it couldn't hurt to be extra squeaky clean in documentation with them. Agree with other posters on language used. Triggered response is what pwBPD is looking for and in my experience only makes things worse. Frustrating, but true.

I think Turkish mentioned anger in communication works against us. Anger as a reasonable human emotion, as an alert to a need for boundaries and a force to motivate positive change is useful.

[Sluggo]

Thomas,

We have 2 special needs kids.  And I am usually accused of 1 thing after every visit they have with me.  I document by taking pictures of the medicine I give, medical devices they have on, etc.  My soon to be exBPD wife will try to set things up missing supplies and then she tries to blame me.  Like leaving the wrong medicine out, not having enough formula out and then saying I didn't give him enough, telling me wrong dosis of medicine, and so forth.  She called CPS stating that I did not take my son to get xrays but luckily I had call logs and conversations that I played for CPS disputing what she said.  She had my son get an MRI after a visit when he bumped his head.  My brother in law is a doctor who was there and said there was absolutely no reason.  The list goes on and on.  However, it is the documentation and voice recordings which has saved me because my wife is very believable with the passion and emotion she tells these things to others. 

[david]

"my wife is very believable with the passion and emotion"... .
Back in 2008 my stbx filed a protection order and a petition to have me evicted from our house. The judge gave her the protection order but did not have me evicted. That's another story. Anyway, the next day I was in the driveway. Ex's vehicle showed up along with three police cars. The police officer told me I have ten minutes to vacate the premises. He insisted that there was an order for me to leave. He had a copy, that my then wife had given them, of the eviction order. It was actually the petition she had filed. She convinced them that it was a court order and that it didn't need to be signed by a judge. I tried discussing it with the police but soon realized I was going to be evicted. I called my attorney right there in the driveway. I handed the phone to the police officer and my attorney explained that I was not evicted. He explained it to ex and ex simply said she must have been mistaken.   I couldn't believe it at the time. She has tried similar things since then but I almost always have documented proof of her false allegations. I never call her on it but simply state facts. The better you get at it the less it occurs.

[Thomas0311]

She wrote:

In fact both girls were adamant that [DD 5yr old] never gets any medicine at your house except for lovenox, which I find hard to believe.

This was the part that I reacted to, the straw that broke the camels back... .I replied (my first response) before getting any further in her e-mail, and broke down after it.  Which is rare for me. I'm a sensitive guy, but very logical and rational in how I deal with life. I have strong emotions, but I lead life with logic... .and in the cases where I feel emotions driving my actions I feel very at odds, and lack an internal peace, I tend to start over thinking to an extreme (analyzing) when this happens... .it's why I start to lose sleep and spin on things until I understand why and how I'm feeling the way I am, and then the emotions seem to have no affect after I do.  That's why support from people who understand means a lot... .getting perspectives and awareness from others who've been through similar helps me to develop my own understanding of what's happening around me.  I read all of the responses above and I'm very appreciative for everyones thoughts and insights.  It's more helpful than you know.

Not sure how much people here know of Myers Briggs... .I'm a typical INTJ, though low J... .so I tend to be a bit more contemplative (like the twin INTP) assessing things from multiple angles and my life it seems is about strategizing and organizing things to be efficient based on my internal value system, which is about my daughters and protecting them, in almost all interactions I have with her.  That was the basis, I think, in my reaction above... .I couldn't believe she'd make something like the quote above up... .it's mild compared to what others here have dealt with.  Maybe my ex-wife doesn't have BPD, but she has some variant... .the chaos and her lack of ever being happy despite navigating her life into situations where we very well could be if she wanted to, just confuses me.

Anyway... .I was analyzing this more in my mind this morning and wondering if I needed to defend myself on this, but then thought that maybe it should be left alone at this point.  I thought about my desire to quote the sentence above and ask her to clarify her statement and the words "adamant" and "never" and how she concluded that based on what was said. I recognize that my desire to do this is to defend myself, which may just get her riled up again (better left alone?)... .what do you guys think?

[ex-wife] I'm glad we're on the same page. I have concerns about that statement: "adamant that [DD 5yr old] never gets any medicine at your house."  Would you mind adding context as to how the girls communicated this to you? It does not jive with reality.

Someone told me that quoting her words is not a good thing to do, as she'd interpret it as invalidating her point (which even if made up, in her mind is reality)... .which she views as an attack.

[david]

"In fact both girls were adamant"... .

Mom might not have even talked to them and she just made it up. I don't ask my kids about things like this but usually they say something in conversation that indicates they were not spoken to by their mom.

They may have been adamant and you need to consider the environment they are in. They may need to agree in order to not feel the wrath of mom. They are learning coping mechanisms in order to deal with things. Saying what they believe their mom wants to hear may be a strategy.
 
Last but not least, I have learned to not take things like this personally. It doesn't lead to anything positive if I do. Quoting from this site, "Negative engagement is still engagement." The more I thought about that the better I got at responding to my ex.

[takingandsending]

Thomas,
I am going to echo david's line, "negative engagement is still engagement." In the lessons on communication, trying to Justify, Argue, Defend or Explain (JADE) to a pwBPD is not effective. You will likely not achieve any happiness for yourself or improve the communication with your ex wife - in fact, it often gets worse after JADE. Again, JADEing invalidates their reality, which need not be, and often is not, based in fact.

I really understand your sensitivity, thoughtfulness and analytical nature. I tend toward the same myself. And I can read in your response how hurt you were about the unfair accusation, and maybe more so about the implication that your daughters think you are not taking care of them. My S5 told me a month ago that I don't do anything to care for him or his brother, S9, - that mom does everything. I am certain that he was parroting words my STBxw had said, probably verbatim. I didn't question him, or refute what he said. I told him that mom does a lot for them, and that I loved him. My feeling on these things, especially with kids this young, is that consistency in action is critical ... .consistently showing up as the person you are, consistently giving them your support and love, consistently not harming them by withholding your love and support when they may upset you. Over the days, months and years, your daughters will benefit, and that's what is important.

I wouldn't worry too much about whether your ex wife is BPD or not. It's a spectrum disorder. Maybe she only had BPD traits. Doesn't really matter. The communication tools on this site are effective, whether or not you are using them with a pwBPD or a person who does not have BPD. Try to find what you can on JADE and Sympathy, Empathy, Truth (SET) and see if they make sense to you in your question of how or if you want to respond to your wife.

Mostly, hang in there. You are doing the things that you need to do to have your daughters' backs. That's the most important work to set yourself to, and it's where you want as much of your energy/resources going as possible. 

[Sluggo]

d me a month ago that I don't do anything to care for him or his brother, S9, - that mom does everything.

That is almost a verbatim quote my kids have told me.  They are not sure I can take care of them because the soon to be exwife says that to them over and over.  They have believed it.  My 10 year old special needs daughter said a couple of months ago, I do not want to go to your house becuase what if my back starts hurting.  I said I would give her tylenol or advil.  She said she didn't think I could do that.  I said I have been involved in your care since you were a baby.  I was very involved even having to take care of her without my wife there for 10 months when she was 7.  Also many times she would come to me because she was scared of my wife (her mom) because she was raging.  My daugther says she doesn't remember that I did anything for her and doesn't believe me.  I show her pictures of that time, but still not sure she believes me.  It is amazing that her memory has totally been changed. 

[Thomas0311]

My older daughter (7 year old) is a very logical minded kid, and she is all about fairness and doing the right thing.  Earlier this year she started telling me about situations where her mother had lied to her... .often involving me, but sometimes just the interaction between them.  

One example:
DD: "Can I take toy X to Mom's this weekend!"
Me: "Nah, remember our rule, you need to bring back toy Y first"
DD: "It's lost, Mom says I lost it."
Me: "Where did you see it last?"
DD: "I had it in bed when I went to sleep, but when I woke up it wasn't there anymore."
Me: ":)id you check on the floor, or around the bed."
DD: "Yes, I looked everywhere."
Me: "Well sometimes things get misplaced... .that's ok. I'll tell you what, check again this weekend as hard as you can, and if it's still missing we'll just call it an accident. Then you can take toy X next week as long as this doesn't become a habit."
DD: "I think Mom is hiding them."
Me: "Why do you think that?"
DD: "She does that with our toys when she doesn't like something we've done."
Me: "So your toys go to time out to teach you?"
DD: "No, she always says we lost them, but really I know she took them."
Me: "I think she's trying to get you to address a concern about something else. What do you think that is?"
DD: "Yeah, but it's not fair... .because she's lying."
Me: "Well, yeah... .I suppose.
DD: "I'm pretty sure she has toy Y, and she's making me look for it even though she has it."
Me: "Well lets ask her when I drop you off."
DD: "She'll just lie to you about it, she'll say it was my fault... ."

So a conversation like this is pretty standard with my daughter... .she's very insightful. I've become aware the last year that she's vented about her mothers actions that she doesn't understand... .particularly the lying. Some of this can actually be turned into a good lesson of life just isn't fair sometimes and people don't always act as you expect, but you can find what motivates them and learn methods to accomplish your goal to make both you and them happy. She's too young for a lot of that though. I started to question myself... .to make sure I'm not promoting this. Really, as I see it, this boils down to a personality clash... .my daughter is wired a lot differently than her mother. She's just naturally a tune to a more structured, fair and on the surface way of doing things (which is actually a lot like me)... .I think some of that is taught, but the majority seems to be hard wired. Her younger sister is so opposite... .she's rather please people, and will fudge the truth to accomplish that goal. This daughters however, was never like that, fairness and bunt was always her way.

I suspect her mother is frustrated that she is more like me... .and I think her mother is playing games with her in order to punish (teach, in her mind) her and try to get her to follow her not to cut and dry, or clear, set of rules.

Anyways, I'm digressing... .the point here is. I had a conversation with my daughter not long ago telling her that calling her mother a liar isn't a good thing, but that she should rather get to the bottom of what is motivating her mother to act as she is. I thought about this later and wondered... .I don't want to invalidate my daughters observations and feelings. I also don't want to be a platform to promote her growing up resenting her mother.

How does one find a middle ground with this? Any advice?

[david]

I have two boys (S18 and S13) with my xBPDw. Ex does the same thing to both of them. They used to talk to me about it and complain. They have come to accept their mom is the way she is. Anything they value has been moved to my house over the years. They started that when the oldest was around 10. He did it on his own and I didn't even know it until much later when our younger one told me. He was also doing that by then.
From what I have concluded, my ex does not do it to punish. She does it from some need she has. She goes into cleaning fits and when she does things disappear.
Funny story when we were together. Ex complained that I wasn't helping around the house. I cooked almost all dinners, made lunches for the boys, took them to all events and functions, did the dishes, did the wash, etc... .Anyway, she said I needed to vacuum the carpets. I didn't see  a reason to fight about it so I did. The first time she said I wasn't doing it right and showed me how. I couldn't see the difference. The second time she said I didn't do it right again. I asked again what I was doing wrong. This time she showed me. Apparently when you vacuum carpets you need to have a certain finish/pattern with the nap of the carpet when you are done ? The fact that I moved the furniture and vacuumed under everything didn't matter. It was the pattern at the end. I tried again. Ex got so furious she told me I wasn't allowed to vacuum anymore. I concluded that was a win/win and let it go.

[Thomas0311]

Fascinating. I've noticed the same, in regards to collecting things that she values.  At my house, she has room and storage... .I will look through her stuff when she's not here, mostly just to understand her world. It's fun.  I'll even ask her about why and how she organizes to get more context to how she's thinking and what's important to her.  It's a fun activity. But she knows she's safe from my interference.  My involvement in her stuff is not to control it, but to understand her.

Recently I set up a "Bank of Dad" excel spreadsheet for her, and I'm introducing her to how compounding interest works.  Sure she's very young, but my dad did this for me and the value of it has been incredible in my life.  So I give her allowance ($1 every day she's with me) and we just auto load it into this account, and then she has more responsibility to get her own things, and I'm also showing her how the more she saves the more interest she starts to earn (I'm very kind in giving her 8% Annual return on her savings). One time I dropped her off and she ran into the house while I was getting their stuff from the trunk... .then she came back out the door to hug me, and hid an exchange from her mom where she put $20 in my pocket and whispered "can you put this into my Bank Account." In the moment I didn't know what to do, it was clear she wanted to keep this from her mom. The next time I saw her mother... .she berated me for "stealing $20 from her daughters" saying "that's my money, that my uncle gave her, for her to spend here!" to which I said "I'll talk to [DD7] about it and we can discuss this next time I see you"... .she was fuming

I had a talk with [DD7] about this and mentioned to her that I love how much she's learning about keeping money safe and invested, but that money she gets at her moms should be spent there.  I turned it around and said "even though it's your money, it's also a gift from your moms side of the family and she would enjoy seeing you spend it there." So my daughter understood this.  Next time I saw her mother I said we had talked about it... .she was still combative, there was no way to avoid that (in her mind I was evil), but I told her that from now on I'd ensure no money exchanged houses because I agree that's not ideal.

What's sad here... .she doesn't realize how she's creating this herself. She think I'm manipulating her daughters in ways that she's actually doing herself.

[ForeverDad]

"In fact both girls were adamant"... .

Mom might not have even talked to them and she just made it up... .

They may have been adamant and you need to consider the environment they are in. They may need to agree in order to not feel the wrath of mom. They are learning coping mechanisms in order to deal with things. Saying what they believe their mom wants to hear may be a strategy.
 
Last but not least, I have learned to not take things like this personally. It doesn't lead to anything positive if I do. Quoting from this site, "Negative engagement is still engagement." The more I thought about that the better I got at responding to my ex.

Divorce Poison by Richard Warshak told of a case where a 5 year old girl whispered to grandma, "Whatever I say I mean the opposite" then in the presence of her parent shouted at grandma, "I hate you!"  Children can tread cautiously to please their demanding parent yet feel safe enough to say terrible things to their normal relatives knowing they'll still be loved.  I don't know if that's the case here but they may be trying to avoid angering their mother?  That's sort of what david alluded to above.

Validation is important for children.  Life with an inconsistent and controlling parent can make them doubt their own observations and change their reality every time the parent's moods and perceptions change.  So when your children make comments or observations that are correct, don't fail to validate them.  I recall sometimes a new member will arrive saying they tell their kids "but your mother loves you" when the kids said something about mother that confused them.  However, covering over the parent's poor actions or statements didn't help the kids.  Validation includes helping the children to put all the pieces together, age appropriate of course, and not covering over the other parent's evident poor behaviors.

Back to the original post here, the initial email you shared didn't seem all that BPD-ish.  Doesn't mean that it wasn't or that she isn't, its just that the email didn't reek of BPD-isms like many communications shared here.  I know you said a major problem was her emotional and physical affairs but what other symptoms led you to think it might be BPD?  Understand that not all pwBPD act the same, people are all different and the same holds true with disordered people too.  I'm curious about what other behaviors she had, perhaps such as overly entitled, overly demanding, ultimatums, cognitive distortions, overly triggered, etc.

[Thomas0311]

Good question... .It's her perception of reality that seems so skewed to her own needs.  Maybe that's more of a NPD thing... .Her e-mails are not her own words (they are written by her new husband) so that is part of the reason they don't fit her actions. Sounds nice in what is written, but it is not followed through with... .

Example: We are currently engaged in a dispute over Date Nights I've been having with my daughters for the last three years.  Every 10 day period they are with their mother, I've taken one of my daughters out to dinner. As they've gotten older they've started to enjoy this time more and more. Their mother got remarried five months ago and moved further from me. I have worked to accommodate this change, driving to them and offering multiple date night options every 10 day period.  She's started rejecting them with increasing frequency... .stating her right to focus on her own time with the girls. Sometimes stating that her husbands calendar has a conflict (not quite sure how that creates a conflict for her daughters though).

So I sent her a note about 2017 (schedule for the entire year, 12 date nights each), to get things back on track. I outlined how accommodating I've been the lst five months and it doesn't seem like she's prioritizing this important activity and established access between the girls and me.

She replied to the note negatively... .stating that I'm being selfish in not respecting her right to develop a better relationship with her husband and the girls. She said she would rather look at each period one at a time and address if her calendar can fit in a date night.

What's more, my daughters have been asking more and more about why these date nights keep getting cancelled. I have stayed as neutral as possible with them telling them their mother and I are working on a solution to why they keep getting pushed off. My older daughter then told me her mother asked her to keep a secret about them... .she continued to say that her mother made up a conflict last Wednesday (dinner with a friend) and that friend never came to dinner, followed with "mom always lies, how can get away with this?"  When I asked her why that's a secret... .she told me that her mother doesn't want me to know when she lies, and asked her daughter to keep it from me. What is so odd (yet fits everything I saw with this woman when married to her) is that she does so well at seeming proper on the outside. She projects working with people and compromising, but when it comes to actions she takes advantage of people and situations for her own gain. Her daughters are given a window into this world (because as she grew up her own mother did the same to her). My daughters are both becoming increasingly upset about this, as they compare the honesty issues between their mother and me.

It's a difficult place to walk, keeping them out of this, while they also get wrapped up in it when their mother says ok to dates, only to later reject them for made up reasons (and then letting her own daughters know it's a game she's playing). Her actual goal in this seems to be for me to uncover enough of it to ask, fight or lash out at her over her selfish actions (taken steps to avoid all of that). It's difficult, because it's next to impossible to co-parent with someone like this. Any compromise made is then the new norm and slowly worked to get even more in the future. There is no such thing as building up good will... .as I've done since her re-marriage in being more lenient to the date night times... .which she's now trying to state are an accommodation on her behalf... .and not what it really is (and important think for her daughters development).

The lashing out usually happens in person (she's muted in e-mails because her husband writes them for her - I met him last summer just before their marriage, we had dinner to get to know one another.  At the time he told me he witnessed first hand that she would write things that he knew were pushing my buttons... .he said he was doing his part to tone her down - since then I've noticed the tone and vocabulary to be so different from anything she uses, I've known her since 7th grade)... .I remember her verbally attacking me for ever asking about guys she was having lunch with. Yelling at me for being controlling or a horrible husband who doesn't give her space to breath. Simply because I asked "is it ok if I join you guys?"

The biggest sign I see in her is that she has absolutely no accountability for any mistake she's ever made.  A couple comments she's made to me over the years "I treat the people closest to me the worst, because I know they won't leave me." (she said this almost as if I should be honored to be her husband)... .and "I never apologize, because people will use that against me."

[GaGrl]

Are the date nights with your daughters set up in your Court Order as regular visitation time? If not, especially considering that the move took them farther away, you might want to revisit your parenting plan as a legal agreement.

[ForeverDad]

Back to the original post here, the initial email you shared didn't seem all that BPD-ish.  Doesn't mean that it wasn't or that she isn't, its just that the email didn't reek of BPD-isms like many communications shared here.

Good question... .It's her perception of reality that seems so skewed to her own needs.  Maybe that's more of a NPD thing... .Her e-mails are not her own words (they are written by her new husband) so that is part of the reason they don't fit her actions.

Ah, that explains it.  So her H is filtering the communications.  Perhaps he can remain a moderating influence but understand that in time you and the kids may get thrown to the wolves if (when) she turns on him.  Many pwBPD cast all ended relationships as abusive ones with them as target or victim, they just won't accept they had some responsibility or fault for its end.

[takingandsending]

Thomas,

Your explanation makes a lot more sense now. And I better understand, given your conversation about the lying with your DD, why you responded with so much anger over the medicine insinuation. But it sounds like you know pretty well that responding with anger won't actually help you, your kids or your custody concerns. Ugh.

I think Gagrl is probably right - time to talk to your attorney about revising the parent plan and pulling that old court decree forward as best you can. I think here, the time is now for you to focus on your boundaries. Accommodating can be a kindness ... .until it isn't, until it contradicts your values of how you would treat others. Your daughters losing contact with their dad is not good for them. It isn't good for you. Only you can be clear on what you can and cannot accept. Reading your posts, looking at your response to the medicine, it seems like you are holding in a lot of resentment, which, while understandable, isn't going to help you or your daughters. I do this in my situation as well. What do you think your boundaries are? Can you put a few sentences down that resonate?

[Thomas0311]

Are the date nights with your daughters set up in your Court Order as regular visitation time? If not, especially considering that the move took them farther away, you might want to revisit your parenting plan as a legal agreement.

The PSA states... .

"7. CUSTODY OF CHILDREN.  Husband and wife shall have joint legal custody and therefore retain joint responsibility for the care and control of their minor children, and joint authority to make decisions concerning the children.  The children’s primary residence shall be with the wife, subject to the right of the husband to have said children for liberal periods of time throughout the year as set forth below.
7.1. Custodial Time. Both husband and wife shall have access to said children at all reasonable and seasonable times and places, as agreed upon by the parties from time to time and conditioned upon reasonable advance notice of intent to exercise said rights of access and visitation."

Then continues to outline our current physical custody arrangement where I have them every other weekend Thursday-Sunday. With holidays and summer split, I end up with about 25% time with them.

I've started the legal process to get the date nights established as a legal obligation.  It's something we have done for the last 3 years, ever since the split, and falls within the "access to said children at all reasonable and seasonable times and places... ."  I've continued to give her advance notice, but she keeps turning them down. It was a sharp difference in her uncooperative nature towards them since she remarried.  I think she's been shooting herself in the foot by wording e-mails as though her husbands schedule needs to be checked so that "they can see if my date night works in their schedule... ." despite me giving them a half dozen options each 10 day period... .only for her to later type something like "you're being hypocritical in wanting more time with the girls, can't you see that I need to develop a better relationship between them and my new husband. I'm sorry but you'll have to wait and request again in a few months."

I have records of the frequency of these date nights, and it was rare I ever missed one during a 10 day period they weren't with me... .never multiple in succession. The last date night she allowed with my 8 year old was in October.

Also in a face to face talk about co-parenting with her husband standing beside her, he spoke up in a rather emotional way saying "This is difficult for me to say... .but when the girls go to dinner with you, they come home and my wife says it's difficult for her. They are wired, and too excited. And they've started calling her a liar." I tried to defuse whatever tension he was referring to (I suspect she's feeding him all kinds of fallacies about how I'm teaching the girls to hate their mother) by saying "well we always skip desserts, so it can't be sugar induced." The reality is, their mothers name rarely, is ever comes up, and if so, not in a negative light... .we spend the time talking about life, being happy, friends, school etc... .sometimes they ask about observations they are having in differences between the homes, but that is kept neutral. Anyway, her husband is in a protector role, maybe working with good intentions, but off of false information. That's my gut feeling on it anyway.

[Thomas0311]

Thomas,

Your explanation makes a lot more sense now. And I better understand, given your conversation about the lying with your DD, why you responded with so much anger over the medicine insinuation. But it sounds like you know pretty well that responding with anger won't actually help you, your kids or your custody concerns. Ugh.

I think Gagrl is probably right - time to talk to your attorney about revising the parent plan and pulling that old court decree forward as best you can. I think here, the time is now for you to focus on your boundaries. Accommodating can be a kindness ... .until it isn't, until it contradicts your values of how you would treat others. Your daughters losing contact with their dad is not good for them. It isn't good for you. Only you can be clear on what you can and cannot accept. Reading your posts, looking at your response to the medicine, it seems like you are holding in a lot of resentment, which, while understandable, isn't going to help you or your daughters. I do this in my situation as well. What do you think your boundaries are? Can you put a few sentences down that resonate?

Sometimes I feel like I'm nuts... .I has very little drama growing up, never dealt with much deceit of conflict, like this. Throughout my childhood and adult life I've avoided people who aren't what I would deem "good people at their core." As an introvert, this is easier to do, I tend to make my own peace in the world and like to surround myself with those who have similar values. I find that I'm defensive, when I don't need to be, because of my intuitive nature and history with her... .I see deeper into what she's up to, always, and I get frustrated trying to communicate this to others. I see the worst in everything she does and I know I have my own biases because of what happened to our marriage. I have to remind myself, all the time, that my reaction isn't helpful, and I'm never going to teach or show her how she's violated so many ethical codes I stand by.

I need to work on those boundaries you're talking about. My goal in life is just to love my children and hep them to grow up happy and confident in themselves. My lessons about their mother are often to get them to think about why and how mom is acting as she does. Not to attack her, but to see the underlying processes she goes through - as they compare and ask questions. And to show them that sometimes they don't align with mine, but that's ok... .we each get to make our own decisions in life. I remind them as much as possible that we both care about them and love them.

[Thomas0311]

Good question... .It's her perception of reality that seems so skewed to her own needs.  Maybe that's more of a NPD thing... .Her e-mails are not her own words (they are written by her new husband) so that is part of the reason they don't fit her actions.

Ah, that explains it.  So her H is filtering the communications.  Perhaps he can remain a moderating influence but understand that in time you and the kids may get thrown to the wolves if (when) she turns on him.  Many pwBPD cast all ended relationships as abusive ones with them as target or victim, they just won't accept they had some responsibility or fault for its end.

He was helpful for the first couple months.  He'd actually communicate with me during drop off and pick up of the girls. We'd chat, he seemed open about his views on things. I got the impression he was a good hearted guy. My ex-wife got really upset about one of these instances and wrote me an e-mail stating she didn't appreciate me being buddy buddy with her new husband saying "he's my support not yours!" and I wrote her back saying she's being ridiculous, that I understand a husband is to support his wife, but it's a positive thing if him and I have a good relationship.  From that point forward he stopped talking to me. He'd stand next to her, and just watch. Now he'll say "hi", but he doesn't come across as friendly anymore. Not that this really matters... .to me. Just observation. Something about his perception of me changed during that time. Maybe it's just as simple as he got yelled at by her for "being a horrible husband" as she used to tell me regularly.

I think with time you're right... .she'll turn on him. As long as I'm a target, he's a bit more of a protector, to her. So it's a bit of an odd situation... .ironically, our drama gives them something to work on together. Oh well, hopefully the legal route will fix a lot of this and we'll have less to have to communicate on. Parallel parenting, I've been reading more about that. What going on between them is only my concern so long as it affects my daughters.

[GaGrl]

Some of the other parenting s dealing with an BPDex may have more specifics to add here, but there is a consensus here that the phrases "reasonable access" or "reasonable schedule" or "reasonable phone calls" or "reasonable anything... ." doesn't end up working well in the long run with a BPD parent. It ends up being I interpreted as the BPD wants, not in the spirit of adults discussing or having mutual agreements in the best interest of the children.

What has happened since October is not reasonable, especially with the history you had established. And yes... .your ex is not doing herself any favors with the position she has established in emails.

Indications are here that your ex will continue to block access and minimize your time - and the girls need more rather than less time with you. You might want to propose mediation - is there a mediation requirement in your state? - but consensus on this board is that mediation with PD parents is rarely successful.

If you find you need to change the parenting agreement to be more specific, there are lots of examples on the Legal board regarding the areas that need to be locked down... .holidays, vacations, school holidays, school events and extracurricular activities, etc.

Plus, your reasoning would be "significant change in life events" which is the 're-marriage and move.

[Thomas0311]

Some of the other parenting s dealing with an BPDex may have more specifics to add here, but there is a consensus here that the phrases "reasonable access" or "reasonable schedule" or "reasonable phone calls" or "reasonable anything... ." doesn't end up working well in the long run with a BPD parent. It ends up being I interpreted as the BPD wants, not in the spirit of adults discussing or having mutual agreements in the best interest of the children.

What has happened since October is not reasonable, especially with the history you had established. And yes... .your ex is not doing herself any favors with the position she has established in emails.

Indications are here that your ex will continue to block access and minimize your time - and the girls need more rather than less time with you. You might want to propose mediation - is there a mediation requirement in your state? - but consensus on this board is that mediation with PD parents is rarely successful.

If you find you need to change the parenting agreement to be more specific, there are lots of examples on the Legal board regarding the areas that need to be locked down... .holidays, vacations, school holidays, school events and extracurricular activities, etc.

Plus, your reasoning would be "significant change in life events" which is the 're-marriage and move.

Unfortunately, my lawyer in the divorce wasn't a good one.  In a lapse of judgement he added a sentence to my Retirement splitting account because I asked him to make sure my ex didn't take advantage of the fact that there was a loan against our 401k (that we both should be responsible for, because it was for our house, which we got a split of after it sold). So he added the sentence: "In the event there is an outstanding loan balance as of the Assignment Date, the loan balance will not be included for purposes of calculating the account balance to be divided"... .which can still be seen as a different font in the final word document. I took this to mean that I was protected against the loan, but my ex-wife's counsel argued that the words "loan balance will not be included... ." meant the opposite of what my lawyers intent was... .and rather that she should be awarded half of the account balance (without "reduction" of the loan amount; they started using that word "reduction" in place of "included" when they sent QDRO paperwork).

This ended up costing me $20,000... .I secured a new lawyer (after doing A LOT of research), and she told me that although my lawyer made a grossly negligent mistake here in creating a discrepancy (usually judges fault the person who added the language in the discrepancy and automatically side with the other on the dispute), that I had no legal action against my ex-wife in it, and that fighting it, though I'd be justified ethnically (emotionally?)... .I'd likely lose. She estimated 90% chance of losing. She also said although she rarely advises clients to sue lawyers, that I had a good case to go after him for the mistake, but that it would cost me half or more of what I hoped to win in legal fees to attempt to do so, and there was a chance I'd lose and pay even more for it (because lawyers have protection and incentive to fight against you in these situations, and even if they lose they are covered by insurance), even if I won likely wouldn't recoup the legal fees. Talk about a depressing situation... .my effort to stay ahead of my ex-wife in trying to manipulate a 50/50 split more to her advantage (after decided not to use her affairs to argue that she should get none of the 401k... .since they started in the first year of our marriage)... .instead I get left with just 40% of the account, and a $40,000 loan to pay back on it.

Anyway, my ex-wife realized how unfair this was, and she'd point it out in subtle ways... .with a smirk for months. She knew how upset I was about it. This was a couple years ago... .I had to learn to stop responding to her pokes on it. I only was able to do so in telling myself it's just the price I pay for getting her out of my life.

The point being, you're right... .she won't ever do the right thing. The world is a place to take advantage of people and get what you can from them. I have a very good lawyer now, and I think an excellent case for revisiting the custody and tying up a lot of these loose ends that are creating the conflict, where it should just be more straight forward. You're right that the statement "reasonable" doesn't exactly work as intented. No matter how reasonable I am, it is never reciprocated.

[takingandsending]

I need to work on those boundaries you're talking about. My goal in life is just to love my children and hep them to grow up happy and confident in themselves. My lessons about their mother are often to get them to think about why and how mom is acting as she does.

Does it resonate to say, "The happiness and (self) confidence of my children is most important"? If so, that value, that importance, becomes the framing of the boundary. When xW tries to tangent or pull you into conflict, you go back to that boundary. There are a lot of ways to communicate it, but that's your line in the sand.

"I can understand why you are worried about DD receiving her medicine" [Sympathy]
"I feel the same way. Regulating her heart medicine is so important" [Empathy]
"I am very conscientious in giving her all of her medicine and will remain so" [Truth]

Then any effort to talk about what she says daughters are saying, revert to boundary and truth statement. No need to go any further, and if xW pushes it, state boundary clearly, ":)aughters' health and happiness are my utmost concern. Continuing this conversation is upsetting to me and will not change how I feel about them, nor how I care for them."

If it continues, that is your fall back statement. I have done this with my wife, and although she didn't like it, it was effective in ending blame fests and other non-value added communications. If you stay consistent with it, she will stop pushing that button. I think you are in the same boat with respect to the date night visits, but best to get that as spelled out, written part of parent plan versus interpretation.

I am sorry you are going through this. Keep going back to your daughters and your love for them. It can help you maintain healthy boundaries with someone who will do their best to fight them. 

[Thomas0311]

That is a very insightful post and such great advice!  Thank you.  You're right, when I cycle back to my daughters, it naturally defuses the tension and conflict.  I love how you laid out examples of those three emotions. I can see how they disarm the aggressive nature of accusatory statements.  I can empathize with what you said about her not liking it.  It's like she hones in (and I fall into the same trap) on the disputes and conflict and the purpose behind finding a solution for the girls best interest is lost entirely. When it's brought back up to them, she'll sometimes try to get things back into the mud, but at that point it just seems more comical than anything... .so it's easier not to be offended. It really is all about the initial reaction... .which often is my intuitive sense telling me what she's up to. I need to start using that to my advantage (for lack of a better term) and working to diffuse or steer our conversations away from us... .and back to the girls.  It's difficult to yell and scream at someone who is saying "I love my daughters" as an underlying message in all of my actions.

[GaGrl]

Excellent insight! It might seem awkward at first to repeat yourself so much - the techniques often feel strange, artificial - but when the underlying value has clarity (daughter's welfare), it becomes easier over several uses.

[Thomas0311]

Journal entry... .

Summary... .
Ongoing issues where ex-wife has refused to let me take my daughter to dinner (I've tried verbal, writing and my daughter has asked her numerous times).
Ex-wife keeps telling me in writing that her and her husbands schedules are too busy to accommodate any of the 20 or so date night options I've provided them the last two months of the year.
This last week ex-wife rejected all of the options, like usual, saying she was too busy.
When I next saw my daughter it became apparent in her questions that my ex-wife had told her that I rejected date night this last week but her mom had told her that she wanted us to go. "She said it was your fault Dad."
I informed my daughter that wasn't the case.
My daughter then said her mother showed her a piece of paper with my name on it, and in the print it said I was saying No to date nights and that I was too busy.

forwarded the more detailed journal entry with more specific quotes of the conversation with my daughter to my lawyer. No more addressing these things with my ex. :\

[ForeverDad]

Some of the other parenting s dealing with an BPDex may have more specifics to add here, but there is a consensus here that the phrases "reasonable access" or "reasonable schedule" or "reasonable phone calls" or "reasonable anything... ." doesn't end up working well in the long run with a BPD parent. It ends up being I interpreted as the BPD wants, not in the spirit of adults discussing or having mutual agreements in the best interest of the children.

If you find you need to change the parenting agreement to be more specific, there are lots of examples on the Legal board regarding the areas that need to be locked down... .holidays, vacations, school holidays, school events and extracurricular activities, etc.

Plus, your reasoning would be "significant change in life events" which is the 're-marriage and move'.

I agree, the standard "reasonable" or "mutually agreed" boilerplate phrases don't work when BPD is a factor, you just don't get reciprocation and the Ex sees them as oozing "reinterpret me to favor yourself".

It's already been a few months where she has denied the prior arrangements.  It is clear she has no intention to resume those dinner times.  It would be best to resolve this sooner than later.  If you end up in court and say "a couple years ago we used to... ." it could be perceived as too outdated or 'stale' to be actionable.