Confused and looking for guidance

[Slow2learn]

Hello everyone! I'm new to this site and fairly new to the BPD traits I've seen exhibited by my partner's ex, and have numerous questions, so I apoligize if this is lengthy. I'll try to stick to the meat and potatoes version of what's been going on because I had no idea how big of an impact it would have on us.

A little background-The ex was diagnosed with BPD a few years ago after many of the classic signs (suicide attempts, constant conflict, infidelity, drug and alcohol abuse, and more) and was institutionalized briefly a couple of times. The ex ended it for another partner, remarried, and has not really been around much for the kids (three total, all non costodial, M14yo with another partner and two with my partner F10yo, M5yo). Before I was in the picture, there was minimal if any contact in regards to the children. Now that my partner and I are together (2 yrs) there has been an upswing in the amount of time the ex spends with the kids, although it's looking like that is starting to diminish slowly over time. The 10yo seems to be exhibiting some of the same traits as her mother, such as high drama/high conflict and needing to be the center of attention. My partner just shuts down and lets her behave in nearly any way she feels, and just repeats her name when she's not behaving without any follow through such as a loss of priveleges.

There have also been incidences where the children's safety was in question while she had them. She lost custody primarily because of a dui while transporting the children during the divorce proceedings and she was stopped. Shortly thereafter she was stopped while by herself and lost her license from a second dui. There were pics of the kids on a boat in the middle of a lake, no life jackets on, the youngest was bit by a dog (almost cost him his eye) and she refused to tell any information about it (dog owner, rabies status, place it happened, type of dog) and she notifed my partner four days after it happnened that it was just a scratch. 10yo was going to video chat and 5yo likes to photobomb, IMHO mom was trying to cover herself so that when he popped up and had a mark on his face it would be already spoken about. "Just a scratch" should have had stitches and required two courses of antibiotics, and has left permanent scars physically and emotionally.

Where I am looking for guidance is 1) Any way to tell how much of this is inherited traits from her mom vs simply emulating what she's seen her mother do vs spoiled child (first grandchild and only daughter in two generations) vs typical tween drama? The younger child acts pretty typical from what I see. 2) How to help my partner not shut down when conflict with the child occurs (I think this is an ingrained response leftover from the marriage although he's pretty mellow to begin with) 3.) At a loss about the kids being with her. I know I really have no say since they aren't mine, but I think she should be given supervised visitation because I'm afraid the boat pics and dog bite are things she simply got caught doing and there are more incidents that she's done where nothing has happened (but eventually will), but he won't budge, let's her come and go with the kids as she pleases, even if it means changing her plans in midstream to not pick them up when she says (and sometimes not at all), or causes problems on school nights. I'm thinking that is an avoidance of conflict and fear that she'll tell the kids that she wanted them but he said no and start planting the seed of "dad is the bad guy here, not me."

He's a wonderful person, very kind, very patient, very loving, and has many good qualities. He's just got a steamer trunk for baggage instead of the usual carry on luggage. I can't say that I haven't considered ending it, because I have. We aren't married although he's indicated he wants to on several occasions. If it weren't for the above mentioned, I'd be racing to the alter because my feelings for him are so strong and because he's just such a great person. I just don't know if i can take on what he's bringing and want to talk with someone who has been there, done that.

I apologize that this is so long, and many thanks in advance for any help, guidance, advice, and or shoulders to cry on.

[NorthernGirl]

Hello Slow2learn and Welcome  . You've certainly come to the right place. You'll find lots of people and resources here to help you. Even though it may not seem that way, the fact that your partner's ex is diagnosed with BPD may be a good thing. Many of us here are dealing with people who are undiagnosed and not even aware (or admitting) there is a problem. Having said that, it doesn't make all the drama  and chaos any easier. I understand very well the "steamer trunk of luggage" as my DH (dear husband) came with the same. 

There will be others on here who can provide some specific help, include some resources you can use. But I thought I'd ask a few questions (and don't worry about the length of your post -- we know there has been a lot happen leading up to someone posting here the first time!)
* Do the kids have access to any counselling? If not, do you think your partner would look into that for them? This is where a diagnosis of BPD can be helpful -- you can find a therapist who understand BPD and has experience helping children who have a BPD parent. A therapist can help determine what behaviors are typical for the 10 year old's age, and what may be things she is picking up from her Mom.
* What custody arrangements are now in place? You mentioned the mom lost custody, but there has been an upswing in the amount of time she spends with the kids. Is that just your husband giving her more access, or is there something in place to say how much time she can have?

Keep posting and reading more on this site. There are some great resources to help you and your partner set up boundaries that can help minimize the impact of his ex's actions on the kids. 

[Slow2learn]

Thanks NorthernGirl!   Much like the ex being diagnosed is a good thing (I can see where that provides a good starting point for helping the kids) I am sorry yet thankful that there are other people who have been there before and my heart goes out to all of them. The nons really have been through a lot, and it's hard to sit back and not know what to do or say.

To answer your questions, Yes, the kids could have access to counseling, and it was brought up at the beginning of our relationship when he explained about his ex and the diagnosis that if need be, he'd be willing to go that route. After the 10yo last defiance incident we both agreed that we sit together as a family (I have kids too) and have rules in place on what behavior is appropriate and what isn't, and what consequences will be if the rules are broken. I'm not talking harsh rules or consequences, just basic ettiquette 101, and loss of priveleges such as loss of phone/no TV for the evening. I'm thinking if we start that and there is little or no improvement, then it will be more clear that it's more than simply a child used to demanding their own way, and we'll approach it differently. I'm not ruling out issues that counseling would be necessary for, just taking a conservative approach as before now there have been no hard fast rules in this household.

As far as custody, he's got primary physical custody. She's supposed to get them every other weekend, starting Friday evening, ending on Sunday. For the longest time, she didn't get them at all, but that changed about two months after we started dating, she now gets them mid to late afternoon Saturday, and drops them off Sunday afternoon on the weekends she's supposed to be getting them (rarely on Friday night like the custodial agreement states). The upswing in the amount of time she sees them is that she's starting to do what she should have been doing all along. It's starting to diminish back down, as she doesn't get them every time she's supposed to. I've come to look at this like a double edged sword. It lessens the amount of drama/chaos they see first hand along with safety issues, but, unfortunately, the 10yo has realized that her mother isn't getting her like she should, and has been asking her dad why her mom is ignoring her so much. He's told her to ask her mother, and has pointed out to the 10yo he's went so far as to take the kids to her or to her mothers (grandma) to be picked up. As far as holidays, they follow the FOC book on who gets them for each holiday, but even that is sketchy and he's had them on some of her holidays at her request. I don't normally mind spending various holidays with the kids, but I can see that it wears him out to not get a break.

Boundaries are new territory for him. I'm only too happy to establish them, but have a feeling he may drag his feet trying to avoid more conflict with her. I read Stop Walking on Eggshells a while ago (my ex is NPD), and also How to Stop Caretaking the Borderline or Narcissist. I found them both helpful, but not enough.

Thanks again for your reply, and I will definitely be nosing around for as much information as possible

[catclaw]

Hey Slow2Learn   and welcome on board!

I can 100% confirm what NorthernGirl said.
This community is a treasure! You will find good advice and helpful resources. While it's sad that there even IS a need for a board like this, you've come to the right place.

I'm not ruling out issues that counseling would be necessary for, just taking a conservative approach as before now there have been no hard fast rules in this household.

You wrote about your SD10 showing mild BPD traits. May I ask some more questions? How long did she live with her mother before moving in with you? Could you give some examples for her dramatic behaviour? How are the kids doing at school?

My SS moved in with us when he was 7 (hes 9,5 now) and has been through a few rough patches in his first 7 years. While he has some issues that might be caused by neglect (hospitalism, weak muscle tonus, retarded motoric/ emotional development), he also shows some BPD traits - I think these are coping strategies he learned during his early life from his mother. They were pretty isolated all along and (apart from EOW with my DH and his father) she way the only constant role-model. He adapted a lot from her. Needless to say that his coping staregies are dysfunctional and cause him more trouble than good.
Other than that, kids with a BPD parent and a non-BPD parent live in 2 worlds - they may have trouble developing stable values and a constant moral compass. This might happen to every kid of divorced parents, but the BPD parent challenges their experiences and self-estem to a totally different extend. I (personally) think that every kid with a BPD parents can make good use of counselling. You just need to find the right focus for each kid. We found play-related-therapy and psycomotorical skills training to be helpful for SS while DH and I take the systemic road to recognize our own dynamics and find ways to cope.

For the longest time, she didn't get them at all, but that changed about two months after we started dating, she now gets them mid to late afternoon Saturday, and drops them off Sunday afternoon on the weekends she's supposed to be getting them (rarely on Friday night like the custodial agreement states).  ... .the 10yo has realized that her mother isn't getting her like she should, and has been asking her dad why her mom is ignoring her so much.

This is so sad... We have the same talks with SS at times. He doesn't understand why his mom sent him away so many times. He has a very weak concept of his own identity and very low self-esteem and his mom sending him to foster care, taking him back and then sending him to live with us, all of which in less than 2 years, hasn't made it any better. When his disappointment gets very strong, he adapts her behaviour and becomes somewhat a copy of her again, mirroring her and hoping for her to give him more attention. I don't know, could this be the case with your SD, too?


As for the "dad is the bad guy here, not me" for not letting them live with her - we also have this regularly. We have a policy of "this is something you don't get to decide right now". We know, when he asks again, that his mother told him how much she misses him and how she wants him back and how much she cries (interestingly though, this has stared when we demanded child support from her. She had no interest in having him back until our lawyer asked her to provide the necessary documents to pay for her son. When we didn't let loose, she got pregnant again). He was asked by hi school's social worker where he wants to live and he said "dad and catlclaw, because mom just can't". So it's not his wish but hers. By saying "it's not your decision, you're too young" (in our country, kids have a say in this at about 13/14 years of age), we try to take the burden off him, as he isn't allowed to make a decision that could hurt anyone.

Lots of love and hang in there

[Slow2learn]

Hi catclaw! Thanks for your reply, and I agree that it's sad a board like this is necessary, but am glad it's in place. I've been reading around a little, and find it does have a wealth of information.

I am so sorry that your SS was bounced around like that. How awful to constantly feel unwanted, and barely get settled in somewhere only to be uprooted. I do hope that the help you've found for him is helping.

I'm happy to answer questions about my situation. She lived with her mother from birth until age 7, when the divorce happened. BM was a stay at home mom during this time, so there was a lot of contact and chances to watch BM in action. BM had custody until one of her DUI, which was right after she filed for divorce but before the hearings, and that was used against her because she had the kids with her when she did it. From then on, custody was given to DH. We are planning on getting married, but do not live together at this time, so I don't see these things on a daily basis, only when I visit (1-2 times a week, more if work schedule allows). I also know there was little structure during the marriage when the kids were there, from what I was told it was because DH went into survival mode when he was home and he had his hands full with full time job, keeping the house clean/laundry/chores, bathing/caring for 2 small kids, cooking dinner and keeping BM from killing herself (four attempts) and that something had to give. After the divorce DH moved in with family who allowed the kids to act any way they wanted (they've had enough trauma, don't tell them no or make them mind (sigh)). Good intentions gone awry.

Some examples of her behavior would be that she just gets these out of control hyper mood swings, almost manic. For instance, tonight, she was in good spirits, my kids were playing with her, and she came into the room we were in, threw herself on the sofa, talking a mile a minute then suddenly sits up and dead calm, says "you ruined my life" to DH and then repeated it to me. Gave no explaination when asked what she meant, just repeated it. Then went back to being happy and talkative, ran out of the room, and started playing. I've seen her do that a lot. I've also had her point at me out of nowhere and scream "It's all your fault!" when I wasn't doing anything to her, with her, about her... .? That has happened several times, and it's been when we've been doing a project together and getting along, it's been when I've been minding my own business. I'm so confused. When asked, she either gives a nonsensical answer or doesn't know why something is my fault. She also gets a glazed over look in her eye and she'll start to do things that are disturbing but not necessarily dangerous. For example, she tries to get really close to my face and when she does that she won't blink or breathe, just stare. Last week she had safety scissors (same glazed over look) and she tried cutting her hair, but snipped two strands of hair instead and put the scissors down, lost the glazed look, and seemed fine. Again, disturbing, but not quite into what I feel is dangerous. I haven't seen her trying to do anything violent. As far as school, she's struggling a little academically, but no behavioral issues that I've heard. She's involved with after school things that are team oriented and seems to do well there. I have been told girls are different from boys (I have two boys), and girls tend to be drama queens around the age of 8-12, but I can't imagine they are THIS different.

Yes, I think it's fair to assume that some of this is like you said, learned maladaptive coping skills. I do also think some of this is simply attention getting behavior, since she's not feeling wanted by her BM. She does seem to struggle with emotional regulation, but I can't tell how much of it's learned behavior that can be unlearned or something that needs more intense help. With having had only boys (who are pretty drama free by nature), I don't have a baseline to compare the 10yo behavior to for determening drama vs disorder.

I'm also sorry you have the DH is the bad guy stuff. It's not fun. We've also had the "she's not my mother, I don't have to do what she says" happen. DH said, "no, she's not your mother, but she is the other adult and yes, you do. You have to listen to her" (THANK GOD) Could be 10yo is acting out and testing her limits, or could be BM is telling her she doesn't have to do what I say. As far as BM trying for custody, I haven't heard that she has. I think if it suits her to do so she will, but the kids are already an inconvenience and I don't see that changing. As far as the kids being bothered by it, they go back and forth between disappointment and business as usual. Sometimes they are bothered by her not getting them, but they have also come to expect that she is going to not follow through on picking them up, so when it happens, they shrug and go back to doing whatever they were doing. Only in the last month or so (that I am aware) has the 10yo been questioning why her BM isn't around like she should be. That could also be that her friends have figured out that she doesn't live with BM and most other kids of divorce do and have asked her about it. Peers have a funny way of bringing stuff to the surface sometimes.

Thanks again, catclaw. I hope you have found even footing for your situation. It apparently doesn't get magically better, but I hope you (and others here) find that sweet spot that is a balance and a little bit of calm.

[catclaw]

Another thing i was wondering about... .

You said, BPDm sees the kids more often since you're in the picture, correct me if i didn't get it right (I'm not native in english).
I also understood that it doesn't look like bm is manipulating sd into not respecting you. From what I've experienced, pwBPD's manipulation can be very subtle and hard to detect, even for professionals.

Is it possible that she sees you as a rival and thus tries to have her kids spend more time with her?  It seems a little suspicious to me that she only started taking them when their dad had a new partner. If that's not the case, just don't mind this thought ^^

[Slow2learn]

Yes, catclaw, the amount of time she spends with the kids has went up, again, not like what the court ordered agreement is, but closer to what she should be seeing them now that I am in the picture. So, yes, you understood correctly. If I recall correctly, right after the divorce she was seeing them like what she is now, but that it started to become less and less frequent until DH and I started our relationship. It was after she was informed about me, first by the kids, then confirmed by DH, that she started to more closely match what was expected of her for visitation. It is starting to diminish back down again, and I recently learned that when SD calls BM on her weekends to see what time they can expect to see her, she is now starting to be yelled at by BM for disturbing her. As far as I know, this is new. I don't know if this means she'll eventually go back to barely seeing them, or if it's just another layer of emotional garbage being heaped on SD.

I have my suspicions as well about the timing of her taking them, but also about how subtle the manipulations can be. I do also know enough about kids that there are going to be times they test their limits simply because it's part of the learning process and growing up. I don't want to pin every single act of misconduct on BM being manipulative behind the scenes as that is simply impossible for her to micromanage at that level and it rules out normal childhood/adolescent behavior. But I also think that some of her behavioral issues DO stem from things BM says.

I hope this painted a better picture of what is going on. It's hard to describe in detail without creating a novel.

[livednlearned]

Welcome and hello 

1) Any way to tell how much of this is inherited traits from her mom vs simply emulating what she's seen her mother do vs spoiled child (first grandchild and only daughter in two generations) vs typical tween drama?

People with BPD tend to be genetically predisposed to emotional vulnerability (among other sensitivities), so it's possible that your partner's daughter is at risk genetically, too. Add to that BPD parenting and a passive dad, and her risk increases.

2) How to help my partner not shut down when conflict with the child occurs (I think this is an ingrained response leftover from the marriage although he's pretty mellow to begin with)

My SO can be this way, too. His middle daughter (19) seems full-blown BPD to me, and the behaviors that make rockets go off in my head barely register for him. It's taken couples counseling to turn things around slowly, and I've learned a lot from supportive members here about how to take care of myself. You kinda end up becoming the emotional leader, and that's great in terms of growth, and hard in terms of effort.

3.) At a loss about the kids being with her.

He may be numb to BPD behaviors and not accustomed to healthy boundaries (or allergic to conflict... .). With my SO, our couples counseling included a child psychologist who impressed on him the serious implications for D19 if SO did not assert boundaries. I see a T on top of it all to help me with boundaries I can assert with SO, to avoid going down the rabbit hole.

A great resource (if you want to model some healthy validation) is asking validating questions. This addresses the desperate need for validation that kids with BPD parents tend to have, and also bounces back the responsibility onto them, where it helps them develop a sense of agency and adequacy for solving their own problems.

There is also a really good book, BPD in Adolescence by Blaise Aguirre if you want to get a head start on BPD behaviors in a young child, including a chapter about the difference between normal teen behavior and BPD.

If it's any consolation, my son (BPD/NPD father) began to exhibit worrisome behaviors around age 8. At age 9, he was in therapy and receiving care. I think he is genetically predisposed to emotional vulnerability and sensitivity in general, and it is probably my intervention that has kept him on the healthier side of developing a much worse condition. He's been diagnosed ADHD/ADD combined type, ODD, OCD, anxiety + depression, and is sensory defended.

Do as much as you can now while the child is young, and shine some light on the issues that it sounds like dad may not want to see. You may have to be creative in how you get the message across, and be proactive and focused on solutions. Pointing out what is going wrong will only discourage him -- he is missing the whatever to see the problem for what it is. Putting some tools in his toolkit might give him the  he needs to tackle things a little more head on.

[Slow2learn]

Hello and thank you, livednlearned!

I'm glad you shared your insight with me. I'm sorry your son has so many issues, and that you are also dealing with a 19yo. Glad you caught on early and had help right away. My oldest is autisitic, and has his own issues from that. Aren't NPD fun?

Does gender have anything to do with the chances of genetic disposition? BM has two boys and a girl, the oldest boy I don't see much of, but we talked a little, and he seems to have some anger issues, but he doesn't live with us (his bio dad has custody), just occasionally visits, so his disposition would be hard to track over time. The youngest boy seems to be pretty ok, but does have melt downs easier than my boys did. The daughter seems to be the most troubled, and from what I've read, it seems to follow more along the female lineage than the male. Is this true that you know of? Upon being told BM diagnosis, he was also told that there was a predisposition for this disorder in any kids they had. DH has been hypervigilent with watching the SS (his own son) for any signs of BPD, and said he'd get him help if needed. Not so vigilent with SD, although I don't doubt for a minute if he could see she needed help he'd get it for her. I don't think it's a preferential thing, I just think he genuinely doesn't see her behavior as that far out of line. There's a 6 year gap between his two, DH said BM was at her worst after SS was born, so I'd lean towards that's why the focus on him is because of an associated type of thing (he's born, she's worse, therefore he's more likely to have it) as opposed to the greater expsosure that SD has had along with genetics.

Thank you for the link to the validity questions, it's going to be something I'll have to actively remember to incorporate them when she's having something happen that she thinks is causing the world to spin off its axis.

I really feel for you about your SO 19yo "setting off rockets", I see it happening in my situation too, and cannot believe he doesn't see it. But, like you said, I think they go numb to it. I guess like a frog in a pan (put a frog in a hot pan, it hops out immediately, but warm the pan gradually and cook the frog alive because it adjusts to the pan until it's too late).

From what I see boundaries are hard for non's because when with a BPD they get trampled anyway. So I can see where the healthy boundaries would be new to him, in setting them for himself with his kids and with another adult who is willing to stay within said boundaries, and in having them set by others around him. In my situation it looks like there have been few boundaries with the kids, and very little follow up for misbehaving. I will say, however, we had an incident over the holiday where she was deliberately making a game we (DH, SD, and me) were playing more difficult for me to win (not out and out cheating, but close), and I lost time and time and time again (15 rounds worth). I got tired of it, and quit during the game and went to another room (no drama, just "I'm done" and I got up and calmly walked away). I did hear DH speaking with her for quite few minutes, although not what was said. She left the room, head hung down, and went off by herself for a while, then came and asked me to play. I told her "oh, no thank you ) " and did so pleasantly, not rude or snotty. I didn't want her off the hook quite so easily, but wasn't going to rage at her either. She went off by herself for a while, then came out and asked please would I play. I asked her if she was going to cheat, she said no. I told her she owed me an apology (new territory for her), and she did. I played a board game with her and we had a lot of fun the rest of the evening. Maybe his eyes are a little more open to her behavior than I realize, or they are opening.

I can understand where if I point out what I see is wrong he would feel attacked. No one likes to be told they are lacking as a parent. I tend to be direct (ok, blunt to the point of painful), so creative solutions are a weak spot for me. I'm working on a rough draft set of rules for the household that he and I are going to fine tune together (he seemed open to the idea and a little excited so I figured that was the green light), so that they are OUR rules (not all mine, not all his) and we're going to discuss what happens when they are broken, then present them to all of the kids. I've learned to use "I feel" statements, along with making requests, but beyond that, I'm out of my element for being proactive and creative.

Thanks again, and I hope you have found a spot where you feel like you are out of the middle of the storm.

[livednlearned]

That's a great idea about the house rules!

Our couples counselor (with a child psychologist) recommended we do that, too, but for several reasons we never followed through. Partly because D19 was part-time with us for the summer and reluctance on SO's part, altho if she comes back to live with us, we will do it.

Another creative solution suggested that we never tried is to play games that focus on feelings -- I can't remember the game that the T suggested. Maybe there are some good ones out there that appeal to your family and age of the kids?

[Slow2learn]

I can see why you didn't enforce the rules. We discussed it further and I made sure he was onboard with me regarding them, and he said yes, and that he couldn't see any reason why we shouldn't. One battle down.

I haven't heard of any feelings games, is this something I can look up online, or are they better played with the guidance of a counselor?

[livednlearned]

I remembered the game -- it's called Tune In, Tune Up by Gameful Mind: www.gamefulmind.com/store/p1/Tune_In_Tune_Up_Card_Game.html

Looks to be for ages 10 and up.

[Slow2learn]

Followed, the link, thanks so much!   She likes to play board games and card games, this might be something that can help, or at least open some dialog.

[PinkieV]

House rules are awesome! I used them with my D20 when she was younger - no BPD, just a strong-willed little girl! I read about it somewhere, and started trying it out. Just shrugged my shoulders and said "house rules". It took the pressure off me being the authority figure actually making the rules and her pushing back against me. I tell all my friends with younger kids to try them.

[Slow2learn]

Thanks livednlearned! I found the game, and am ordering it. I hope it helps us.

PinkieV-I'm so glad to hear from someone who did house rules!  In raising my kids, it was pretty much a given how to behave so that we didn't need to write them down. My dad had the ability to give us THAT LOOK and we knew we were done acting up, without being told, and I inherited it (yay me!) so my kids know without being told when they are getting out of line. Doesn't seem to work on SD so much. I have started a list, I'm up to 12, don't want to write a constitution for the house, but basically say "Be Kind. If you think you are being kind, ask yourself if you would like it if someone else did to you what you just did." with 11 more specific to our family things that I have seen done by DH kids and my own (deliberately disobeying being a huge one). I'm trying to instill empathy with these rules. I have also written consequences (nothing too extreme just loss of phone for the day, unless behavior continues, then it's two days, then a loss of something fun planned to do over the weekend if it still continues after that), and am going to print them off, so that DH can modify what I have  (they're our rules, not mine). Did you have any issues with other people not maintaining your rules (aunts/uncles/grandparents etc)? I'm a little concerned that because DH has allowed her behaviors to go on for so long, he will back down at the first sign of her not liking being told to do or not do something that was previously ok, and that I'm wasting my time doing this. I've seen him back down from other things when she pushes back.   I'm going to use your reply and have him use it to of "sorry, house rules" Love it!