Dropped on my head, left without a home and daughter Pt. 5

[codependable]

She reached out to me from Egypt tonight. I was shocked when she asked, "How are you?"

Maybe she's just fanning the flames of false hope, but that was the first time in two months that she inquired about me - or how I was doing. She was blinded by my "blackness" for so long. (And this is the absolute longest it's ever been).

We'll see what happens tomorrow night when I pick her and my daughter up from the airport.

Any thoughts on how I should approach this? Should I show up with flowers again? Or is that too much? I was thinking of a nice bouquet for her and a tiny one for my daughter.

[formflier]

Good question.

My vote is no flowers.  Be friendly... .interested... .etc etc when she gets back... but NOTHING overtly romantic.

If she leans in for a hug or some sort of affection... .go with it... .don't "up it" or make a big deal out of it.

I would make sure to offer a hug/greeting for the little one.

Ummm... .from one overthinker to another... .chill a bit.  Be friendly and interested... .let her take the lead... .

FF

[codependable]

My vote is no flowers.  Be friendly... .interested... .etc etc when she gets back... but NOTHING overtly romantic.

... .let her take the lead... .

Okay. Thanks. Will do.

[livednlearned]

Hi codependable,

Whew. You are between the proverbial rock and hard place

You sound like a clear-thinking guy with good problem-solving skills, who is getting worked over emotionally. Not to mention you are learning about a serious and complex mental illness PLUS an international family court system. The fact you haven't cracked yet is remarkable.

I'm glad you're seeking advice from friends here and learning good skills.

I wanted to chime in about this advice from your L:

I did discuss this with her the other day. She agreed this is my priority. I am worried, however, that this will trigger my GF just as we are starting to rebuild and reconcile. So far, since I have been here, she hasn't blocked me from seeing her.

Over on the Family Law board, we often recommend that people get several consultations. Law can be surprisingly interpretive, and some lawyers are better at focusing on goals, strategies, and tactics. Others will be good at thinking of contingent situations, and how to prioritize your actions depending on what could happen. Some give standard responses that work for low-conflict custody battles, and maybe aren't quite as helpful for high-conflict battles with international custody situations.

Some questions that come to mind, either for your current lawyer, or another if you go that route:

Have you had cases like this before, and if so, what happened? What can I expect? How long do things take?
How long should I expect to hear back from you after I contact you by phone or email?
What happens if I do nothing right away?
What is the worse that could happen if I do nothing right away?
What happens if my GF takes me back and things stabilize for a while. What steps should I take to protect myself when she blocks me from my daughter's life again?
What happens if she files first? Does she have an advantage if she acts first?
What happens if she leaves the country with my daughter without my permission again?
How does visitation work? Is there such a thing as status quo, where a long-standing routine (of majority time with mom, for example) influences the courts?
What happens if she files a false allegation against me?
Am I able to travel back to the US with my daughter? For how long? Do I need permission from mom to do that? What if she denies that permission?
Can I file for parental rights without doing anything else (to buy myself some time)?
Is there any point in having psychological evaluations done on both parents?
Are there circumstances under which the situation with her older daughter would influence my case? If so, do I need to introduce those facts right away?
What legal strategy might be prudent to follow if my GF further destabilizes?
When I go back to visit my older girls, how can I safeguard my visitation rights with younger D?
Can I have access to the court documents surrounding the older daughter?
If I leave Germany and move back home, then change my mind in a few years (after your older girls graduate from high school), does that impact how the court system sees my parental rights?
Is there anything I should do to protect myself or improve the odds that I get full custody in the unfortunate even that my GF destabilizes further?
If I reconcile with my GF, does that decrease the court's confidence in my judgment? Meaning, if I stay with her after she has done these bad things (denying visitation, traveling to Egypt), does that evidence become actionable in the future or is there a limitation on how long those details are meaningful?
Do courts care about diagnosed mental illnesses, or is it mainly the behaviors and patterns that are important?
What kinds of documentation can and should I be keeping for when this happens again?

Keep asking questions, it's not possible to ask too many. The law is complex and what can seem like pat, easy answers aren't always like that when people start to introduce variables. Our cases have a lot of variables.

One thing I noticed from following your story is that you are focused on this potential reconciliation, even though it sounds like estranging you is a pattern for her, therefore it's likely to happen again.

A lot of people with BPD tend to have a sort of rejection fantasy, which means arranging key characters in life to repeatedly play out the same trauma, with them as victim, sort of stuck in an emotional loop where the script stays the same, but the actors playing each role are different.

I would imagine that losing her older daughter puts your daughter at some risk for being assigned a similar script.

Last, I understand the difficulty of making a final decision. Talking to a lawyer is a way to position yourself for the worst. You may be like a lot of us, willing to gamble that things stay on the manageable side of difficult. Or, it could be that things take a turn for the worse and if that happens, and the decision gets made for you, it's important to have as much actionable information as you can.

There is no such thing as too much leverage. There is also no such thing as being too many steps ahead.

It's the saddest mental illness, and I'm so sorry you are in this position. If she does pull the rug from underneath you, you'll need to act swiftly and confident that you have your stuff in order. Having you in your daughter's life will make all the difference. My own T talks about the importance of a child having a sympathetic witness -- it can be inside the home or out. Just someone to release the pressure of living with and loving a disordered parent. Someone who believes you, who validates what you are experiencing, and who can show you an alternative to the behaviors of the disordered parent.

So whatever you do, maximize the odds that you will walk away from this as an active role in your daughter's life. It will prevent the likelihood of her developing similar traits and change the abandonment script that her mom will likely imprint on her 

[codependable]

You sound like a clear-thinking guy with good problem-solving skills, who is getting worked over emotionally. Not to mention you are learning about a serious and complex mental illness PLUS an international family court system. The fact you haven't cracked yet is remarkable.

Thanks - I tend to agree!

I also really appreciate your highly detailed list of questions for my lawyer. On my next consultation I will bring these in for her to address.

I also agree with your suggestion that I walk away from this being an active part of my daughter's life. That is what I plan to do. I'm sure it will be a "Battle Royale" once it starts, as my exGF said to me a few months ago... .

"If you ever try to keep M (daughter) away from me, I will destroy you and all the people around you".

I asked her what that meant and she said, "You know what that means".

I'm sure the very first communication she receives from the Jugendamt will throw her into a rage - and a full-blown paranoid state. It will play into her worst fears and "confirm" I'm just the bad guy plotting behind her back. But, as any reasonable person could see, it was HER actions of withholding and blocking me from my daughter that created the situation where I had to take action to protect my rights as a father.

I have a follow-up meeting with the Jugendamt today. We'll see how it goes.

[Grey Kitty]

There's a saying... .don't go down to their level to fight them. They will fight you there, and beat you with experience.

At some level it is a joke, but there is a fundamental truth--if you let somebody else define what battle you are fighting, it will NOT be in your favor. Please note:

I'm sure it will be a "Battle Royale" once it starts, as my exGF said to me a few months ago... .

"If you ever try to keep M (daughter) away from me, I will destroy you and all the people around you".

This all or nothing battle to the death with armageddon and nuclear war thrown in as extra spice is HER game.

Yes, she claims it will be this way. You don't have to believe her, and you don't have to play that way.

Don't cower in fear of how destructive her wrath will be. In the end, she really can't do much more than withhold your daughter from you anyways. Yes, she will be angry. Being angry doesn't stop the courts from awarding you time with your daughter.

Further, you aren't taking her daughter away from her, and have no intention of doing so. Don't get dragged into arguing with her about whether you are doing it or not. As you said, reasonable people won't see it her way.

[ForeverDad]

I'm mostly over on the Family Law board.  Frankly, if you're at an impasse, not making headway on resolving your legal issues, then you do need solid legal advice.  For example, I noticed that LivednLearned listed some potential questions when getting legal consultations.  A good one is to ask the lawyers, "If you were facing a high conflict situation like mine, who would you hire to be your lawyer?"  If you hear some names repeated, put them at the top of your list.  That's not an improper question, they know they won't get every person walking in the door as a client.  And a good lawyer will recognize you need the best representation possible.

Also, you have a right to confidentiality.  Your GF does not have a right to interrogate you and you are under no obligations to 'confess' your legal searches or divulge your legal strategies.  Sadly, sharing information of that sort can sabotage your efforts to be an involved parent.  Think of that as yet another Healthy Boundary... .share information about the child but don't share details of your efforts to legally protect your interests.  If you are "too fair" then you put yourself at a disadvantage because a disordered person generally won't reciprocate your find perspective.  Wish it weren't so but that's the typical reality.

Reconciliation is a concern.  How so?  Unless she is in serious therapy and diligently applying the therapies in her perceptions, thinking and life, then she is unlikely to change for the better.  You've been with her for years and you haven't been able to change/improve her, right?  Every time there's a seeming step forward, then she steps back again.  It's a pattern, a cycle, some call it a neverending roller coaster.  So without her getting expert help, the past is the predictor of the future.  So the question is more like this... .Can you trust/ a reconciliation to last?

Why can't you reason with her or get her to really listen to you?  Why can't she respond well to you, consistently?  Because whatever you do or say is filtered through her inconsistent triggers and emotional baggage of the close relationship.  That's why, if there is improvement, it is almost always in professional counseling that is not impacted by an emotional factor or history.

Even if you reach agreements on some issues, her inconsistent mental and emotional states can toss those within weeks, days, even minutes.  It's like Sisyphus rolling that boulder up the hill only to have it roll right back down again and you're back to where you started, or worse off.  For that reason, especially if she won't do meaningful counseling, you need some way to put some solid boundaries in place.  Yes, we want you to have boundaries but that's for you.  You probably can't set boundaries on her.  But court can.  It can put a framework in place where she's not constantly reverting back to obstructionism and conflict - and not listening to you.  The orders, once obtained can be the solid floor that the future parenting can be built upon.

Her sense of entitlement, inconsistent moods and biased perceptions probably cause her to believe she's in charge, she's always right and you're always wrong.  A decent order levels the field.  (Another benefit of orders is that when she's stressed, distressed or arguing, you can distract her, blame the lawyers and the court so she's not focused on you and hence more likely to comply with the orders.)

Is she a native of that country or is she just a resident too?  International custody cases can get quite complicated and expensive once a child is taken out of your reach.  Better to get solid legal advice and then determine how best to get a court order that protects your parenting including travel, reduces risk of abduction to wherever, etc.  Educate yourself, ponder which strategies are most helpful and move forward.

If you need legal advice, that takes the proper lawyers, we are peer support.  But over on the Family Law board the support there often complements the legal advice.  We too can strategize, tell you what worked (or didn't work) for us and help you avoid the more common legal pitfalls.

[codependable]

There's a saying... .don't go down to their level to fight them. They will fight you there, and beat you with experience.

At some level it is a joke, but there is a fundamental truth--if you let somebody else define what battle you are fighting, it will NOT be in your favor. Please note:
This all or nothing battle to the death with armageddon and nuclear war thrown in as extra spice is HER game.

Very true. I have no interest in a protracted legal drama.  I just want time with my daughter.

Yes, she claims it will be this way. You don't have to believe her, and you don't have to play that way.

That's true. On the one hand, it seems like a bluff - on the other, well... .she's done some pretty bad things recently.

Don't cower in fear of how destructive her wrath will be. In the end, she really can't do much more than withhold your daughter from you anyways. Yes, she will be angry. Being angry doesn't stop the courts from awarding you time with your daughter.

Maybe I'm naive, but I have a feeling the courts will look on me favorably, given that I have moved here from a foreign country, am learning the language and systems and putting her into an American school here - to be a permanent, committed father to her.

[Notwendy]

My reaction to the flower idea is no flowers. ( but I can't say how she feels or someone with BPD might feel )I recall in my dating years feeling ambivalent about a guy, and him showing up with flowers. While I appreciate the gesture in general, I didn't want this guy to bring me flowers. On the other hand, if I was in a mutually romantic relationship with a man, flowers are a beautiful gesture. But even in this situation- too much of this could also be too much.

Also, while it is nice to hear "how are you?" this does not necessarily mean she is having romantic thoughts. It is nice that she considers you, but this isn't just something one says to a romantic partner. One can also ask a friend, or even a brother "how are you" as a general statement of interest and concern.

There can be a push -pull to these relationships. I agree that while you are focusing on this reconciliation, there could be more than one. For some people/couples, the push pull is part of the excitement of the relationship. If she indicates she wants to be closer, I know you would be happy to participate. The push pull isn't a game you want to play with her, but just be aware that if you push too much- flowers, uninvited physical contact- at the airport, she may push back. Greeting her with an "I am happy to see you" and a friendly hug - is a more neutral stand.

[codependable]

My reaction to the flower idea is no flowers.

Yeah, flowers are out.

Also, while it is nice to hear "how are you?" this does not necessarily mean she is having romantic thoughts.

Of course not. But it was - to me - a good sign because it's the very first time she has considered my feeling in months. Or even inquired as to how I was doing. It sort of fits the pattern of her "softening" bit by bit. I think the fact I'm here (vs. her feelings of abandonment) created cognitive dissonance for her. She may see that, yes, I am a guy to be counted on (and always have been) and she may soften further.  We'll see.

There can be a push -pull to these relationships. I agree that while you are focusing on this reconciliation, there could be more than one.

Meaning this could happen again? It would fit the pattern. This has been the most severe I've experienced, however.

For some people/couples, the push pull is part of the excitement of the relationship. If she indicates she wants to be closer, I know you would be happy to participate.

With healthy boundaries!

The push pull isn't a game you want to play with her, but just be aware that if you push too much- flowers, uninvited physical contact- at the airport, she may push back. Greeting her with an "I am happy to see you" and a friendly hug - is a more neutral stand.

This is what I plan to do. I will put the ball in her court and let her lead the interaction. As FF says, ":)on't get too far out in front of her". Makes sense.

[livednlearned]

I'm sure the very first communication she receives from the Jugendamt will throw her into a rage - and a full-blown paranoid state. It will play into her worst fears and "confirm" I'm just the bad guy plotting behind her back. But, as any reasonable person could see, it was HER actions of withholding and blocking me from my daughter that created the situation where I had to take action to protect my rights as a father.

Couple of questions for you  

Is this something you are committed to doing? It's up to you, of course. If you are committed, then we can help you strategize a bit. Otherwise, it might feel like pressure that you aren't ready for just yet, and we want to respect that.

Do you know what happened in her first relationship/marriage with her older daughter's father? What kind of custody arrangement did they have?

Do you have documentation of earlier conversations when she agreed it was a good idea to have a visitation plan for your daughter?

Do you know how things work in Germany if she tries to take your daughter abroad again? It's probably a good idea to talk through the nitty gritty details with a lawyer about what you should do if you suspect your GF plans to take your daughter out of the country.

Maybe we can help focus on ways to communicate with her to minimize her rage and paranoia (in the event you plan to send a letter from the Jugendamt).

In my situation with a BPD x husband, he was paranoid that I would abduct our son. So I had language added that essentially said I would post bond if I traveled to my home country. This would allow him to cash in the bond and use for legal expenses if I did not return with our son on the specified day. Essentially, I did the research I knew my ex would not do, to try and reassure him (and the court, I guess) that there were solutions to his worst fears. This included describing to him how things worked between our countries. Canada (where I am from) is part of the Hague Treaty and essentially honors the custody agreement of the home country. Every country negotiates the extent of how far the Treaty reaches, so if Germany if part of the Hague Treaty, then it's good to check out to what extent the US will honor a German custody agreement.

I also wonder, based on your description of your GF's behaviors toward you, if she is coming down off her emotional dysregulation -- her thoughts are still distorted, though that's to be expected with her skewed personal belief system about people abandoning her -- and if so, how possible it might be to get her to email or text about the reasonableness of having a visitation schedule worked out.

If she did that, then you could quote back to her, in her own words, that you followed through on this, preceding the letter from the Jugendamt.

You are picking up the skills fast, and doing a really good job under difficult circumstances! Learning new skills in a crisis is hard. One skill I found particularly helpful is sort of a two-for-one that also happens to buy some time in the moment, especially if your BPD person is quick and smart: asking validating questions.

I find these questions give my pwBPD a sense of adequacy that can then draw out more adult thought patterns and behaviors. People with BPD tend to externalize emotions, so if you reflect back to your GF that you see her as a competent, adequate person whose feelings are valid, she may be able to better center herself in that image. No guarantees, of course. It just hedges your chances of preventing things from getting worse  

[codependable]

Is this something you are committed to doing? It's up to you, of course. If you are committed, then we can help you strategize a bit. Otherwise, it might feel like pressure that you aren't ready for just yet, and we want to respect that.

Yes, I am committed to asserting my rights over my daughter.

Do you know what happened in her first relationship/marriage with her older daughter's father? What kind of custody arrangement did they have?

She had joint custody, but the daughter lived with her. At 14 years old the daughter decided to live with her father. Apparently, the daughter and my GF we having tons of conflict at home, with the daughter running away, skipping school, getting in with the wrong crowd, doing drugs, etc.

When her daughter decided to live with her father, this devastated my GF. I think this must have been one of the most hurtful periods in her life. It was so bad at that point that the daughter didn't even say "goodbye" to her.

After the daughter got to her father's home, she destroyed that family. More issues with running away, drug use, a false allegation of abuse towards the father (told the cops he hit her), etc. She was eventually taken by the authorities out of her father's home and placed in a juvenile delinquent home where she lived for the past few years.

About two years ago (when she was 16), she and her father petitioned the court to have my GF's parental rights taken away. This was a big battle and they WON.

So my GF has no legal rights over her older daughter and hasn't for two years. I would really like to know what is in those court documents and if they're relevant to my situation. I'm sure there is a TON of dirt in there I don't even know about.

I asked my layer about this and she said that probably would not be admissible because it's a different daughter.

Do you have documentation of earlier conversations when she agreed it was a good idea to have a visitation plan for your daughter?

Nothing formal. Just texts back and foster with me saying that I would like to be in my daughter's life and visit her.

Do you know how things work in Germany if she tries to take your daughter abroad again?

If I get joint custody, then she can't take her from the country without my written permission.

Maybe we can help focus on ways to communicate with her to minimize her rage and paranoia (in the event you plan to send a letter from the Jugendamt).

This would be great.

... .so if Germany if part of the Hague Treaty, then it's good to check out to what extent the US will honor a German custody agreement.

From what I understand, Germany IS part of that treaty and would respect the custody agreement.

I also wonder, based on your description of your GF's behaviors toward you, if she is coming down off her emotional dysregulation -- her thoughts are still distorted, though that's to be expected with her skewed personal belief system about people abandoning her -- and if so, how possible it might be to get her to email or text about the reasonableness of having a visitation schedule worked out.

I think this could be possible.

If she did that, then you could quote back to her, in her own words, that you followed through on this, preceding the letter from the Jugendamt.

This is a great idea!

You are picking up the skills fast, and doing a really good job under difficult circumstances!

Thanks. And thanks for the link - excellent questions.

I find these questions give my pwBPD a sense of adequacy that can then draw out more adult thought patterns and behaviors. People with BPD tend to externalize emotions, so if you reflect back to your GF that you see her as a competent, adequate person whose feelings are valid, she may be able to better center herself in that image.

We'll see!

[codependable]

Okay, the airport meeting... .

Met my GF at the airport to pick her and my daughter up and bring them home.

I stood at the gate waiting and saw both of them walk through. My daughter was sitting on a cart. I opened my arms to my girlfriend for a hug and she just ignored me and didn't hug me back. In front of a huge crowd of people. Ugh.

It was very awkward and embarrassing. My hug had no romantic vibes at all. I just said, "Hey, great to see you".

I took them home, she was very talkative, told me about her trip, etc. They were both VERY sick from a cold or flu: body aches, etc.

When we got home, I carried our daughter upstairs along with all the luggage and went in. I put her in MY bed (was my bed until a few weeks ago) with me and read her a story to help her fall asleep. My GF joined us and laid next to my daughter on the other side. We both cuddled our daughter together.

My daughter started to fall asleep and my GF went into the living room. A few minutes later, I went into the living room and told my girlfriend she should get into something warm and come into bed because she was sick. She said, "Okay. You know you can't stay here tonight".

I said, "I know. I wasn't planning on it"

I was back in the bedroom next to my daughter and my girlfriend stripped naked and got into bed with us (she often sleeps naked). I was above the covers.

I was sort of cuddling my daughter and my GF.  She said, "You should go now. I don't want to give you the wrong idea"

I said, "Yeah, I'll get going"

Before I left, she said, "Thanks for picking us up from the airport". She actually thanked me three or four times that evening for picking them up.

I stood in the doorway of the bedroom and said, "Of course. I'm here in Germany to support both you and M".

She said, "You mean to support M (our daughter)."'

In other words, she tries to make clear that there is a separation between us as a "family" (the three of us) and me with my r/s with my daughter. She doesn't want to hear or accept any of my feelings for her (my Gf).

This is SO difficult for me. I was totally blindsided when I was in California that I haven't emotionally come to grips with her "decision".  The rug was literally pulled out from under me. All my clothes are still in my drawers, my furniture is still there, my fiancée is in my bed next to me naked.

Gut wrenching.

Add to this all the drama and withholding over my child and it's just killing me. Like FF or GK said, she is likely to send me mixed messages and that's true.

Since they are both so sick, I said I would come back in the morning to make breakfast for them and take my daughter to the doctor, then come back and take care of them throughout the day. My GF said, "That would be great. As long as you don't get the wrong idea".

In other words, that we're not a family anymore.  Another body blow. Of course, I need to accept her decision, but I haven't emotionally come to terms with it yet - I've only seen her a couple times.

I said, "Of course".

As I was standing there she reiterated her main"point" which was "you weren't here half of M's life".

Oh man. I couldn't help it - I forgot my new BPD skills and I said (calmly), "Yes, and that's because I would go on a two or three week trip and every time you'd kick me out and make me wait two or three months to come back home. That's why I was gone half her life. I didn't want to be."

She didn't say much to that.

I said, "Listen, I did everything I could to be back here for you and her. I love you two, you're my family and I fought like hell to get back here - even getting my own place around the corner to be close to you. Even after you kicked me out of my own home. That should tell you something".

"Why didn't you just stay in LA?", she asked.

I said, "The plan was never for me to stay in LA. The plan we both agreed to was for me to go to LA, get M's citizenship documents, for me to visit my best friend with cancer, vote and take care of some other business. And then be back a few weeks later. I love you two and the plan was never for me to stay there".

Again, she just listened. Maybe something is sinking in, I don't know.

It really feels like a third party (new therapist?) is telling her to leave me. Or at least after she triangulated me in a session, my GF made the decision to leave me at the behest of the therapist and the therapist is now holding my GF accountable.

A few weeks back, my GF said that in therapy that she "went through a lot of pain but it really opened my eyes to the reality.  I was so blind and I feel stupid I couldn't see it before.  But finally she (therapist) helped me see what was going on."

Basically, that I was not committed to her or my daughter, never was, and was "not the kind of guy who would ever be committed to her".

So frustrating for me to sit on the sidelines, not have a chance to tell my feelings or side of the story and have major life decisions thrust upon me by others. Especially when they concern splitting a family up and a daughter being cruelly separated her loving father. All predicated on twisted, dysfunctional emotional logic form my BPD GF.

So I feel there is a lot of ambivalence at least in her actions vs. words.

On the one hand, my GF is comfortable with me being there, spending time with them, seeing my daughter, even being in bed with her - naked.

Then something snaps back and she says, "I don't want to lead you on" or "I don't want you to get the wrong idea", that sort of stuff. In the past when I came back from trips, she would warm up much more quickly. She wouldn't shrug off my attempts to hold her, hug her, etc. So it's definitely different this time.

It feels terrible.

I said, "Is it possible that you simply got things wrong?  That you got my actions wrong? Is it possible that I really am a good guy that loves you and loves M and was in a terrible situation with daughters on the other side of the Atlantic who he needed to visit and did his best in a really f***d up situation to balance things?"

(Yes, I know. That was terribly invalidating to her. But I felt if I didn't say this it would be like "validating the invalid" because it would let her twisted and distorted view of me and events stand. In other words, if I didn't open the possibility that maybe - just maybe - her view of events was not exactly correct, then it would be me accepting them as real and validating them.

I think in a weird way she WANTS me to blast away at those inaccurate, self-protecting beliefs. She seemed to really listen and open up.

She said she went through a lot of pain in therapy and that it was "very hard for her to accept" that I didn't want to be there for her and didn't really love her and M."

What woman would want to think that?  I think any woman would want their man to stand up and say, "Bull***! I never left you and M! You're my family and I will fight for you".

(I didn't say it in those terms, but opened the possibility to her that maybe she got something not exactly right".)

Again, I know saying that I didn't leave her was invalidating to her faulty belief. But for her sake - as well as mine - I think she needed to hear the truth from me.

She just listened intently. I think it sunk in.

I left the doorway to get my jacket on. She said, ":)on't take my keys. You can't have keys"

I said, "I won't. What is the deal with the keys anyway?"

She said, "Because you suck my data from my phone and suck the data from my computer and I don't want you doing that when I'm not here".

That was weird. And absurd. I never "sucked data" from her phone or computer.

Again, I'm sure this was invalidating to her faulty belief, but I said I never did that.

I said, "No problem about the keys. I will be here in the morning to make breakfast for you and M. Then we can take her to the doctor and we'll come home and I'll make chicken soup for you two and take care of you the rest of the day"

She said, "That would be really nice. Oh - as long as you don't get the wrong idea. I want to make that clear".

I said, "Okay, no problem", and I left.

It was a cold, dark, depressing walk back to my temporary apartment.

[formflier]

I used to think as you do.  That by letting statements go "uncorrected" that I was validating them.

Learn to let others think what they want.

Have a friendly and surprised response. "Oh my... .Yes I have heard you say that before."

The important part is you sound friendly and let her know you hear HER.

FF

[formflier]

Have you hired your lawyer yet?  Have you interviewed a couple of them?

It is critical to move forward.  You have a wonderful list of questions from livednlearned.  Make sure ... .sure... .the lawyers understand this is "high conflict"... .AND... .this is a parent that has had rights terminated before.

I think it is CRITICAL that you get the previous records.  DO NOT ever speak to your GF about them again.  You need information about what you are dealing with, even if it is not admissible.

Understand what your GF tells you about ANYONE else is filtered and distorted by her emotions.

That includes therapists, previous fathers, daughters... .anyone... .even people she has never met.  Like your daughters.

So... .why would you believe for a second that a T would tell her to dump you... .?  99.9% sure that is a defense mechanism she has created to absolve herself of responsibility.  Internal monologue : "Well... .I know he's a good guy... .but my T said XYZ"  Of course she twisted something the T said.

The point of the post... get on with interviews and hiring a L.  Get previous records.  Hiring an L and having that L "take action" are different things.  Be wise... .gently give chances for your GF to be cooperative.

This assumes a month delay in "taking action" will NOT result in a legal disadvantage.  In that month... .you need to stop invalidating your GF and STOP professing love 

Stop it.

FF

[formflier]

Breaking up my "points" into three different posts.

How my T got me to see part of myself... .and change how I approached my wife.

Imagine a grandmotherly T (PhD type... .30 plus years in the business).  I am so blessed to have her in my support system.  It's amazing to watch her work with my wife... the agility she displays.

She straight up tells me she can read my like a book... .I hide no emotion.  I pretty much knew that part.

One day she says "FF... .I need to tell you something.  It's about the way you come off to your wife and others that you love.  You may not like this... .but you must listen and take this onboard. "

With some trepidation... .I said OK.

She says  "FF... You are like a St Bernard puppy."  She continued... ."Think about this for a bit.  What are they like?  Cute and cuddly... but all they want to do is show you affection.  How long can people stand to play with a puppy?  They play about 15 minutes and then the licking and all that affection is just too much.  They put the puppy away.  The puppy looks hurt and doesn't understand why they are being put away"

I saw the analogy... .and yes... .I was a bit hurt.  Now I make it a conscious thought to "tone down the affection"... .many times I make sure and let my wife "bid" for affection first and overlook her "turns away"(https://www.gottman.com/blog/turn-toward-instead-of-away/).

Dude... .please... .please... .see yourself in this.  Stop with the love talk.  Even about your daughter (for now).   99.9% sure that in her head she is going "I treat this guy like sh$t and he still loves me... .doesn't make any sense" and in an odd way your lovey stuff VALIDATES a twisted world view.  Your attempt to not validate the invalid... .is likely to be validating the invalid.

Validation is hard stuff to get.  Focus first on NOT INVALIDATING.  Usually keeping your mouth shut will do the trick.

   

Hang in there... .keep the puppy slobber to yourself.

FF

PS... .I have daughters... .I get it that you want to shout about how awesome they are and that you love her.  For now... .for "safety" sake around invalidating your pwBPD.  When you want to say "I love M"... .I want you to say variations of "I could look at that (blank) forever... "  Insert smile... .those eyes... .those toes... .that dimple... .  Kind of rotate about on the qualities she has.  Then switch to I could listen to that coo forever... .

You get the picture.  Strike love from vocabulary... .for now.  Ok... .perhaps kiss her on forhead when putting her to bed and in a friendly way say "Love you kiddo... .good night... "  (once per day... only... . )

[Notwendy]

You have gotten some very good legal advice.

Although not specific to BPD alone, one relationship issue is a "double bind". Darned if you do, darned if you don't.

I don't know where she got the idea in her head that you are a cad and to leave you. She could create any story about you that she wants. It seems that when you left for LA, she feared you would not come back. If feelings are fact, then this could have felt real to her. But you could not control this process of feelings = facts even if you didn't go to LA. Something else may have triggered it- coming home late or a work project, or saying something. When people have a personal narrative like this, they screen out evidence that doesn't fit the narrative. You could be home at 5 every night and then one night be late- the night you do that will fit the narrative.

As to validation- no you do not have to validate her by agreeing with her that you are a cad. Validation might sound like " I am sorry that you felt this way. That must have been hurtful" Then, "I feel sad that you thought this too, because I had every intention of returning"

So - your double bind: She states you are a cad and will leave her. If you stayed in LA, this premise is true- you did leave her. But you came back and professed your love for her, and she insists the relationship is over. If you push for this- keep touching her, professing your love- you are disrespecting her boundaries- and you are a cad. If you agree with her, and leave- well she was right all along- you left her and you are a cad.

Place this on the drama triangle. She's victim. For her to take victim position in this relationship- you have to be in persecutor position. When someone is in victim position, they are not accountable for their actions. ( to them). Whatever happens was done to them. "She went through a lot of pain" in therapy is from victim position. Yes, pwBPD do feel painful emotions, but you didn't cause them. You can say " That sounds really hard".

The double bind/triangle- may not be deliberate or conscious on her part, but it puts her in control of the outcome for her. What to do? For one- I think the advice to talk to the lawyer is a good one. Find out your rights, your obligations, and if you can- how were her other kids removed. Do this for the sake of the child who is under her care. Since she had other children removed from her home, social services may want to set up some kind of surveillance for any other kids with her. ( I don't know how this works in Germany).

What do you do in the double bind? You can't change someone else's thinking. The decisions you make have to come from your own convictions- what you think is right. You are not a cad, whether she thinks this or not.

[livednlearned]

Make sure ... .sure... .the lawyers understand this is "high conflict"... .

What this means, practically speaking, in case they don't use the phrase "high-conflict divorce" like they do in the US, is that things will not only be difficult reaching a reasonable custody agreement, she will also not comply with it once it's signed.

Meaning, getting the custody agreement signed will present challenges (e.g. she could use one or more or all of the following stalling techniques: stonewall, obstruct, hide information, distort, refuse to comply, drag her feet, say one thing and do another, target your character, make a false allegation against you, fire/hire lawyers repeatedly, create side shows, try to reconcile then push you away, etc.)

AND

even once a custody agreement is signed, she will continue to act in disordered ways. She may take your daughter abroad without your permission, despite being aware there will be consequences. She may keep taking your name off the child care drop off/pick up list, spread rumors about you being abusive. She might not let you in when you go to pick your daughter up for your time. She may over-inflate or even invent viruses and safety issues to prevent you from seeing your daughter, and then blame you for being uncaring when you try to take her anyway.

As your daughter gets older, she may say, ":)aughter doesn't want to see you" (she may tell her daughter the same thing), and that it's mean to ignore how daughter feels.

So, you want your lawyer to understand this might be a marathon, not a sprint, and to think strategically about your goals, whatever they are. It could be that your goal is full custody at some point, and while you won't get that right away, you could be awarded full custody eventually. And you and your lawyer might discuss how this could play out over several years.

Then, once you have a strategy, think tactics, and the best way to position yourself in the long and short term so that you have the leverage you need to protect yourself and your daughter.

Tactics almost always include some kind of documentation, whether it's third-party professionals testifying, or documentation of GF's own actions. It can also mean keeping tabs on what primary care you provide, like doctor appointments, parent-teacher meetings. Here in the US, there are custody evaluations and depositions, plus interrogatories and psychiatric evaluations.

In other words, high-conflict means this may be a marathon, not a sprint, and with support and advice from your friends here, you can minimize the highs and lows of the roller coaster and stay centered no matter what is going on, meanwhile using the skills to contain her tendencies.

[Grey Kitty]

I opened my arms to my girlfriend for a hug and she just ignored me and didn't hug me back. In front of a huge crowd of people. Ugh.

It was very awkward and embarrassing. My hug had no romantic vibes at all. I just said, "Hey, great to see you".
[... .]
Before I left, she said, "Thanks for picking us up from the airport". She actually thanked me three or four times that evening for picking them up.

Yes, she is giving you mixed messages. That's who she is, that is how she deals with her internal conflict and confusion, which may or may not have anything to do with you.

I was back in the bedroom next to my daughter and my girlfriend stripped naked and got into bed with us (she often sleeps naked). I was above the covers.

I was sort of cuddling my daughter and my GF.  She said, "You should go now. I don't want to give you the wrong idea"

Perhaps a cultural difference--is non-sexual nudity more common or accepted by Germans than it is by Americans?

But yes, still more mixed messages there.

Back to the legal front... .you are getting lots of good advice and good questions to ask from LnL and others. Keep working on it, and remember that your GF has no right or reason to know what you are discussing with your lawyers, or even that you are talking to them.

I've got one other thought:

Your gf having parental rights revoked previously is important, in two ways:

1. Her fears about that are really powerful, and will probably push her to do crazy things.
2. Depending on what you can find out, and what can be legally brought up, it could influence the courts in your favor strongly.

Your legal team needs to know all about it.

They have to consider (1), as triggering that reaction could be either good or bad for your case, depending on what, when, or where.

And they can tell you if and how (2) will help you.

[ForeverDad]

Make sure ... .sure... .the lawyers understand this is "high conflict"... .AND... .this is a parent that has had rights terminated before.

I think it is CRITICAL that you get the previous records.  DO NOT ever speak to your GF about them again.  You need information about what you are dealing with, even if it is not admissible.

Understand what your GF tells you about ANYONE else is filtered and distorted by her emotions.

That includes therapists, previous fathers, daughters... .anyone... .even people she has never met... . why would you believe for a second that a T would tell her to dump you... .?  99.9% sure that is a defense mechanism she has created to absolve herself of responsibility.

It may have been said a bit bluntly but I recalls some prior members saying, I know when Ex is lying, when she opens her mouth.  They may deny it, they may claim not to even realize it but whatever else it may be, it happens.  You cannot trust very much without independent verification.  Especially anything about ended relationships.  Typically they're ALL claimed to have been horrible and abusive... .as you are currently being transformed into a shunned Ex too.

A major point to keep in mind is that even if the adult relationship ends, the parental relationship doesn't.  That's hard for her to accept, that you are a father too just as she is a mother, since many pwBPD don't seem to accept where the parent (herself) ends and the child begins.

99.9% sure that in her head she is going "I treat this guy like sh$t and he still loves me... .doesn't make any sense" and in an odd way your lovey stuff VALIDATES a twisted world view.  Your attempt to not validate the invalid... .is likely to be validating the invalid.

Sounds like boundary stuff here.  I would phrase that as, Don't enable her to think it's okay to walk all over you.  A fine line to walk but a necessary one.

[codependable]

I used to think as you do.  That by letting statements go "uncorrected" that I was validating them.

Learn to let others think what they want.

Have a friendly and surprised response. "Oh my... .Yes I have heard you say that before."

The important part is you sound friendly and let her know you hear HER.

Okay, I will trust you on this one. It's against my nature, but I will use this approach.

[codependable]

Have you hired your lawyer yet?  Have you interviewed a couple of them?

Yes, I hired her. I interviewed as many as I could find that speak English and that's not many. Most don't have the capacity for new clients right now.

It is critical to move forward.  You have a wonderful list of questions from livednlearned.  Make sure ... .sure... .the lawyers understand this is "high conflict"... .AND... .this is a parent that has had rights terminated before.

I agree. Yes, livednlearned provided a great list. Very helpful and valuable.

I think it is CRITICAL that you get the previous records.  DO NOT ever speak to your GF about them again.  You need information about what you are dealing with, even if it is not admissible.

Good point. I have *some* of the attorney's names (it was in a different town) as well as her ex-husband's contact information. Perhaps he would like to give a witness statement here.

Understand what your GF tells you about ANYONE else is filtered and distorted by her emotions.

That includes therapists, previous fathers, daughters... .anyone... .even people she has never met.  Like your daughters.

Yes. It's incredible how she twists things. I would point out something wonderful I did, then she would retort, "Yeah and then a few weeks later you did Y". It's like when she's in this mode everything is "made bad", none of the good stuff gets through and anything I bring up is devalued and minimized.

So... .why would you believe for a second that a T would tell her to dump you... .?  99.9% sure that is a defense mechanism she has created to absolve herself of responsibility.  Internal monologue : "Well... .I know he's a good guy... .but my T said XYZ"  Of course she twisted something the T said.

Really good point. It simply feels to me like she is holding steadfast "this time" and in spite of her feelings for me (I've seen signs she cares still - she has slipped up the last couple of days), she is doing her best to stick with the "we're done" theme. In spite of me being here, in spite of me being here for Christmas, all those things I would never do because I'm "such a bad guy that left her".

The point of the post... get on with interviews and hiring a L.  Get previous records.  Hiring an L and having that L "take action" are different things.  Be wise... .gently give chances for your GF to be cooperative.

Okay.

This assumes a month delay in "taking action" will NOT result in a legal disadvantage.  In that month... .you need to stop invalidating your GF and STOP professing love

Stop it.

Okay, I will. I promise. The reason I went back to that (and maybe I give the impression I'm fawning all over her, I'm actually not.) is because it worked in the past. I see her as this vulnerable, hurt person inside a hard shell. She would keep saying she felt very unloved, etc. and I reassured her I loved her and to give things a second chance. And every time she did.

But I agree: It ain't working this time, so I will stop 100%. I will validate everything she says (except the invalid stuff) and stop invalidating her.

I'll trust you on this one 100% and see how it goes.

[codependable]

She straight up tells me she can read my like a book... .I hide no emotion.  I pretty much knew that part.

Yeah, I'm like that, too. Most of the time.

She says  "FF... You are like a St Bernard puppy."  She continued... ."Think about this for a bit.  What are they like?  Cute and cuddly... but all they want to do is show you affection.  How long can people stand to play with a puppy?  They play about 15 minutes and then the licking and all that affection is just too much.  They put the puppy away.  The puppy looks hurt and doesn't understand why they are being put away"

Wow. Great analogy.

I saw the analogy... .and yes... .I was a bit hurt.  Now I make it a conscious thought to "tone down the affection"... .many times I make sure and let my wife "bid" for affection first and overlook her "turns away"(https://www.gottman.com/blog/turn-toward-instead-of-away/).

Great approach.

Dude... .please... .please... .see yourself in this.  Stop with the love talk.  Even about your daughter (for now).   

Okay. Done. Like I said in an earlier post, I will trust you 100% on this. I obviously don't have the same skill set you do, so I will just trust your judgement on this one. I'll look at it as a "test".

99.9% sure that in her head she is going "I treat this guy like sh$t and he still loves me... .doesn't make any sense" and in an odd way your lovey stuff VALIDATES a twisted world view.  

Could very well be.

Your attempt to not validate the invalid... .is likely to be validating the invalid.
Validation is hard stuff to get.  Focus first on NOT INVALIDATING.  Usually keeping your mouth shut will do the trick.

This is a good plan.

Hang in there... .keep the puppy slobber to yourself.

Okay, LOL.

For now... .for "safety" sake around invalidating your pwBPD.  When you want to say "I love M"... .I want you to say variations of "I could look at that (blank) forever... "  Insert smile... .those eyes... .those toes... .that dimple... .  Kind of rotate about on the qualities she has.  Then switch to I could listen to that coo forever... .

Okay. It's a bit like praising in a way. Instead of making general statements: "you are such an awesome kid", instead say, "I really like how you take responsibility with your goldfish and feed it every day" (or whatever). Specifics. Got it.

Strike love from vocabulary... .for now.  Ok... .perhaps kiss her on forhead when putting her to bed and in a friendly way say "Love you kiddo... .good night... "  (once per day... only... . )

Okay, I will do that. Easy to remember for me if I focus on specifics.

[codependable]

Although not specific to BPD alone, one relationship issue is a "double bind". Darned if you do, darned if you don't.

Oh, this is so true. I'm in this situation with her a lot.

I don't know where she got the idea in her head that you are a cad and to leave you. She could create any story about you that she wants. It seems that when you left for LA, she feared you would not come back. If feelings are fact, then this could have felt real to her.

She told me exactly that when I was in LA. She said, "You left me - again. We both know that". She is absolutely convinced I left her.

Also, as far as being a "cad", she points to another time "I left her" when she was pregnant. She and I were planning a move into our new apartment and I had to go to the U.S. to visit family, pick up some vintage guitars so I could sell them, do my taxes and take care of other business before we moved in. We had a move planned, so I a.) found the movers b.) paid for the movers c.) planned the entire move with detailed maps where every item would go etc. etc. Basically, I told the movers, "Listen my GF is pregnant. She isn't allowed to touch anything. All she can do it let you in and point. That's it".

And that's what happened. While I was away, the movers moved all the stuff into our new apartment. She didn't do anything, paid for nothing. She also had family there in case she needed help. It was a one day project.

When I returned a week or so later, she was in a "Kur" a home for pregnant women (like a spa basically) you can go to in Germany for up to a month. Basically, I was gone while she was there so I couldn't even see her anyway.

Anyway, I got home and everything was in boxes. I took time off work, unpacked everything, put everything away and when she got home it was done.

She has never let me live this down.

Doesn't matter that she was in this spa while I was gone. Doesn't matter that I planned everything. Doesn't matter that I paid for the move. Doesn't matter that I unpacked every box and put everything away. Doesn't matter that I made sure all she had to do was let the movers in and her "work" was limited to pointing and it took about two hours.  None of this matters. To her I am just a "bad guy" that "let her do an entire move alone while she was pregnant". Totally 100% untrue. But she holds onto this story as a badge somehow - and pulls it out any time we got in a fight. She won't let it go. Feelings = facts. I get it.

But you could not control this process of feelings = facts even if you didn't go to LA. Something else may have triggered it- coming home late or a work project, or saying something. When people have a personal narrative like this, they screen out evidence that doesn't fit the narrative. You could be home at 5 every night and then one night be late- the night you do that will fit the narrative.

Like the "moving" story. All the good and loving and caring things I did were 100% filtered out.

As to validation- no you do not have to validate her by agreeing with her that you are a cad. Validation might sound like " I am sorry that you felt this way. That must have been hurtful" Then, "I feel sad that you thought this too, because I had every intention of returning"

Okay, this is good. As I told FF, I'm going to trust you guys on this one. I'm going to make a little "cheat sheet" of validating phrases and practice them a bit. I will trust you guys on the validation stuff 100% and see how things go.

So - your double bind: She states you are a cad and will leave her. If you stayed in LA, this premise is true- you did leave her. But you came back and professed your love for her, and she insists the relationship is over.

It seems like this a lot with her: "Heads I win, tails you lose".

If you push for this- keep touching her, professing your love- you are disrespecting her boundaries- and you are a cad. If you agree with her, and leave- well she was right all along- you left her and you are a cad.

Oh, this I SO true. This is exactly the dynamic at play right now. I know her well and I know also she is hurting inside. As FF said, "stop trying to reach her", so I will. But it drives me crazy to see her in this pain, covering it up and pushing my love for her away.

Place this on the drama triangle. She's victim. For her to take victim position in this relationship- you have to be in persecutor position. When someone is in victim position, they are not accountable for their actions. ( to them). Whatever happens was done to them. "She went through a lot of pain" in therapy is from victim position. Yes, pwBPD do feel painful emotions, but you didn't cause them. You can say " That sounds really hard".

So by validating, I step out of my persecutor role somehow?

The double bind/triangle- may not be deliberate or conscious on her part, but it puts her in control of the outcome for her.

This is true. She needs to be in control all the time. So she's always "right" in this scenario. I leave, she was right. I stay and she pushes me away as I'm trying to reassure her, I'm a jerk that isn't respecting her boundaries.

What to do? For one- I think the advice to talk to the lawyer is a good one. Find out your rights, your obligations, and if you can- how were her other kids removed.

She didn't have kids removed. Her daughter decided at age 14 that she wanted to live with her father. So she left my GF and went to live at her Dad's. She and her father later petitioned the court to remove my GF's custodial responsibility which they did. I believe it was basically taking joint custody away from my GF and granting sole custody to the father. Her daughter and father initiated this. But her daughter was not living with my GF at the time.

Do this for the sake of the child who is under her care. Since she had other children removed from her home, social services may want to set up some kind of surveillance for any other kids with her. ( I don't know how this works in Germany).

Okay.

What do you do in the double bind? You can't change someone else's thinking. The decisions you make have to come from your own convictions- what you think is right. You are not a cad, whether she thinks this or not.

I know. Thanks.

[formflier]

  The reason I went back to that (and maybe I give the impression I'm fawning all over her, I'm actually not.) is because it worked in the past.

I don't think it did.  It may have appeared to you to "work"... .but I think it fueled a dysfunctional cycle.  I don't know enough  details... .and at this point they likely don't matter.

We know she doesn't process emotions "well"... or "correctly", I'm guessing that when you poured on lovey dovey in the past it triggered some sort of dysfunctional reaction.  To you it appeared "normal" (but you had on rose colored glasses... .and didn't get the severity of her condition)... .so... .more trouble... .pour on more "lovey dovey"... .that seems to work (but in reality it didn't).

Point number two.

Do not go searching for details about her prior relationships (daughter and all that) yourself

Let your lawyer know... .the L should know how to go about that. 

Again... .whatever stories you have heard from your pwBPD about the earlier daughter... .have been put through her "filter".  It very well may be that the daughter was "taken" from her, but she "feels" it was the daughters decision.

Again... .let your pwBPD think whatever happened... .happened.  You need to have your L learn the objective  (legal) truth.  Let your L figure out if it matters or not for you current case.



FF

[codependable]

What this means, practically speaking, in case they don't use the phrase "high-conflict divorce" like they do in the US, is that things will not only be difficult reaching a reasonable custody agreement, she will also not comply with it once it's signed.

This is likely. She has said in the past when referencing other couples and their custody issues, "Yeah, it's just a piece of paper. There is a lot you can do to not comply. You could just say the kid is sick every time the Dad wants to pick up the child, not be home, delay, go out of town, etc. There really isn't much the Dad can do. If the Mom doesn't want the child to see the father, he won't. And by the time the Jugendamt find out, it's months later before they can do anything about it. It's really up to the parents to work things out because the Jugendamt and courts take so long and there isn't much they can do"

So, you want your lawyer to understand this might be a marathon, not a sprint, and to think strategically about your goals, whatever they are. It could be that your goal is full custody at some point, and while you won't get that right away, you could be awarded full custody eventually. And you and your lawyer might discuss how this could play out over several years.

She knows about my exGF's craziness.

In other words, high-conflict means this may be a marathon, not a sprint, and with support and advice from your friends here, you can minimize the highs and lows of the roller coaster and stay centered no matter what is going on, meanwhile using the skills to contain her tendencies.

This gives me a lot of hope. Thanks!

[codependable]

I don't think it did.  It may have appeared to you to "work"... .but I think it fueled a dysfunctional cycle.

Well, it "worked" from a standpoint of I was able to come home and have a r/s with her again. But I DO get your point. Obviously, it didn't work in the long run.

We know she doesn't process emotions "well"... or "correctly", I'm guessing that when you poured on lovey dovey in the past it triggered some sort of dysfunctional reaction.

I'm not sure about this. Maybe "lovey-dovey" in these past situations was more me justifying myself and reassuring her (which I need to stop doing so much, I know), not so much "I love you... .I love you". But Imget your point.

Do not go searching for details about her prior relationships (daughter and all that) yourself

Let your lawyer know... .the L should know how to go about that. 

Okay.

Again... .whatever stories you have heard from your pwBPD about the earlier daughter... .have been put through her "filter".  It very well may be that the daughter was "taken" from her, but she "feels" it was the daughters decision.

Wow. I never thought of that possibility. Sure, of course it's possible that she was actually removed from the home. I can (hopefully) have my L look into that. Would also,be interesting to get statements from her ex-husband. I'm sure he would have some interesting stories.

Again... .let your pwBPD think whatever happened... .happened.  You need to have your L learn the objective  (legal) truth.  Let your L figure out if it matters or not for you current case.

Makes sense.

[livednlearned]

To be in a crisis and processing all this information is impressive. It's hard to do what you're doing!  

I get the sense you're working through some of the subtleties of validation. I wonder if a quick tour of another related skill might help -- it's called SET (support, empathy, truth).

A lot of us tend to rush straight for the truth part, skipping over the support, empathy bits. People with BPD absolutely require the support, empathy bits. Without them, they can't hear the truth -- intense emotions flood everything out. And even when emotions are regulated, there are so many defense mechanisms preventing accountability that the truth is challenging for them to hear.

The book that helped me really understand SET communication is I Hate You, Don't Leave Me, which describes it from the perspective of the three main feeling states of someone with BPD: terrifying aloneness, feeling misunderstood, and overwhelming helplessness.

Any one or all of these states make it hard for them to hear reason, or truth.

It's a real skill to be able to sit with someone feeling that much pain and bear witness to it without trying to fix it or move it along, or react to it, or take it personally, or get drawn into ruminating about how nonsensical everything sounds. We tend to do better with this skill when we don't take things personally, which is a tall order! Especially when you see five miles down the track and know the train is in for a big crash.

The thing that's helpful about that book is it describes SET statements for different kinds of double-bind BPD behaviors. For example, someone like your GF who struggles with object constancy may respond to SET statements that address that particular issue.

Support includes "I" statements. Like "I sincerely hear how painful it was for you when I left. I can see how deeply sad you felt. I am learning more about how you felt, the more I listen, and I hear that you are done and now that I've had some time to reflect on what you said, I see how painful this has been for you."

Empathy usually involves "you" statements. "You don't trust that my support for you is continual, that I will be here for you. It's hard for you to trust that I will always be here for you." Maybe add to that, "The sadness you felt the weeks you were here and I was in the US must have felt unbearable for you."

(On a side note, you want to avoid saying, "I know how bad you feel" because, as many of us learned the hard way, telling someone with BPD you know how they feel is likely to push a big button, "You know nothing about how I feel!"  

Note that you are not admitting you did anything wrong or implicating yourself in the SE statements above.

Then there's truth. Truth statements are best when they direct the BPD person to their own accountability. "Not being in a relationship and living together means M will need a regular schedule so she has predictable, routine, consistent time with me, like you suggested. I agree with you that I need to be in M's life in a consistent reliable way, and agree that she needs to know when she can expect to see me. Now that we're at this point, the next step is to work out an agreement so that we are all on the same page and M can depend on me to be there for her."

You may want to get input from others about the best way to phrase the truth statement... .you cannot prevent rockets from going off in her head over something as loaded as this. So a SET statement over something this consequential is more about increasing the chances she hears you than preventing her from going into a rage. It's possible, too, that you look at SET statements as a work in progress to refine and perfect over the next 15 years or so, referring back to earlier ones to give yourself a sense of continuity and honor, of nothing else.

In other words, if she accuses you of trying to control her and take away M, you have an email you can quote back to her passively, using it as part of your next SET statement so she has (if she chooses to read it carefully) increased chances of seeing that there is no mention of you taking M away from her (or whatever it is that she fears most).

[formflier]

You will play around with the different formats and find some that are authentic for you in the long wrong.

Personally... .SET is hard for me to do.

I find that if I focus on being "friendly" and just try to listen, and occasionally reflect back or "help me understand" more about what you just said... .things tend to go better for me... .it works for me in my r/s.  You may end up being the SET master... .you'll just have to try.

I've found that when I tried to SET... .I end up trying to "drive home" the point of the T... it doesn't sound friendly and kinda wipes away the SE part.  The more vague I can be about the T... .the friendlier I stay.

For instance... .I just got several signed parenting agreements from my wife.  Trying to put limits on crazyness.  At one point it seemed she wanted to spend over half of the summer visiting her family in one form or fashion (her there or them here).  The only T that I was able to communicate was "that's a lot"... .and stay friendly.

Surprisingly she says "How about 3 weeks of us there or them here... ."  I couldn't believe she went with such a low number.  Stayed friendly on the outside and took it.

Overall point is it will take some time... .but look at the format... .of SET.  You have to "prepare" them to hear things.  That I always keep in my mind.  If my wife is not "ready" to hear something... .I'm just pouring gas on a fire.

FF

[codependable]

You will play around with the different formats and find some that are authentic for you in the long wrong.

Personally... .SET is hard for me to do.

I find that if I focus on being "friendly" and just try to listen, and occasionally reflect back or "help me understand" more about what you just said... .things tend to go better for me... .it works for me in my r/s.  You may end up being the SET master... .you'll just have to try.

I've just been keeping my mouth shut and saying, "I hear you" or "I hear what you're saying".

Seems to work okay.

On another note, it has been a weird and confusing last few days. As you know, I got my own Airbnb place around the corner from her and my daughter.

However, I have been sleeping with my Gf and doing *everything* with her and my daughter the last few days. She has invited me to walk her and my daughter to and from Kindergarten, pick her up, etc.

Each night I have slept over at her place, in the same bed with my GF. It seems like she is really warming up to me again, cuddling, asking me to stroke her hair, etc. No real kissing (or anything more), however. She's resistant to kissing saying, "I can't just forget the last two years". I don't push.

She has also started to talk about our future again. She said the other day, "I think I would like to go to the States next winter". I said, "I can show you around". She said, "We'll have to see how we're doing in a year". We have interactions like that.

I got a new job as expected and started yesterday. She was elated. I said, "Now with the extra income, I will really be able to take care of you and M", things like that. She said she was really proud of me and sent me a ton of pictures of our daughter while I was at work yesterday. We had planned to eat dinner together last night (as we have been doing for a week). I said I was going out for a beer after work with a colleague and would be there right after that.

I didn't hear from her, then an hour later she texted me, "You are going to sleep at your apartment, right?"

I answered, "No, I was planning on staying with you and M like we have been. I also have my dinner there and I need to eat it".

(I bought groceries for us and I've been eating every meal there for a week).

No answer from her. I went to her place, rang the buzzer and nothing. I called her. Nothing. Called again. No answer. Texted. No answer. Someone came out of her building and I went up to her apartment and rang the buzzer. Nothing.

I saw our daughter's stroller at the bottom of the stairs which normally means she is home. But no answer.

I went to my apartment. It's the next morning and still no text from her, no messages, nothing. She just fell off the face of the earth. I have no idea what happened.

This was after a few great days of us being together, spending time together, celebrating my new job together, talking about the future, etc.

I'm assuming this is another "push". Not sure what to do now.