Does it ever work out?

[heartandmind]

Hi everyone! 

To spare you my story and cut to the chase, does it ever actually work out in the end with lovers with BPD?

I try not to read too much online regarding people's opinions about pwBPD, as I know a lot of it comes from scorned ex-lovers or friends who paint pwBPD as these unfeeling, cheating, terrible, sadistic, unloving individuals.

I'm sorry, but I cannot agree with that. As someone who suffers from mental illness myself, I understand how self protection sometimes takes charge (unmeaningly) and people get hurt big time in the process. It has never ever been my intention to hurt anyone (I've felt terribly about it in the end) and when I was ready, I made my reparations. Perhaps this is what gives me the empathy and hope to "understand" them. Am I wrong?
Actually, I find it quite funny (and sometimes ironic) to hear from pwBPD directly about the way they truly feel and the battles they actually face in relationships versus how nons tend to view them from the outside (for example: a pwBPD's self-described shame spirals that send them into hiding versus a non's view of disappearance, cruelty, and callousness).

My ex and I broke up almost a year ago, but she has not been in a committed relationship with anyone else since. We have had four very positive interactions from then, but every time we speak, she runs away yet again, disappearing for weeks to months at a time until she returns to repeat the same act.
Now I know what people online would say about this: breadcrumbs, breadcrumbs, breadcrumbs, being manipulative in a negative/bad way, doesn't really care, feeding her ego, etc., but all I see is a scared girl who broke up with me because she needed to mature in the first place who is now trying to keep the door open in hopes to one day return when she is fit to. I know, I know... .those same people would call me beyond naive! Haha!

Anyway, are there any success stories out there? Or even quasi-success stories? Opinions and experiences please!

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[patrick1991]

Hi questioning 80. I'm kind of in the same position and I have the same point of view as you that pwBPD are just extremely scared and vunerable people who need to love themselves before anybody else. Mine BPD partner hasn't ever painted me black or been negative to me, it's seems as though when I get really close she pulls away and disappears for weeks at a time. It's been 6 weeks now since I last heard from her and that was very difficult over Christmas. I don't know if she will ever come back.

When you BPD partner contacts you what kind of conversation do you have?

[Beck20ish]

My world has recently gone nc after a whirlwind romance and daily contact since September. today is the first day I haven't text or tried to call her, as the last messages from her said she wasn't feeling well, then that she was sorry I felt like I do and that nothing was intentional after I'd text to say I was scared and felt sick all the time. We've not fallen out, had words etc the only thing was I was unable to meet her due to other things getting in the way.
It's been a week since she last text and hasn't answered calls for 2 weeks. How long should I wait before I accept she doesn't really want me?

[patrick1991]

Hi beck20ish. That is the million dollar question, how long should we wait? I've been 6 weeks now without a peep from my BPD girlfriend and I don't know if to call of quits or not. My gut it telling me to stick in there because I love her so much, but there is only so much I can take of this no contact/silent treatment. What is your gut telling you?

[drained1996]

Hello all, I see there are 3 of you newbies in this thread.  I'm going to focus on the original post and we all can go from there.

Yes questioning80,

There have been some success stories, and there are also many that are not.  It's really up to the individuals that are in the relationship and how they are willing to work to make things better.  I believe two people working their best towards the same goal can accomplish most anything. There are also experiences shared here that will show, that even just the non working with correct expectations and using the lessons and tools here can get a relationship where they find it acceptable.  Those tools and lessons I mention can be found in the upper right margin of this page. 
We will be here to support and help all of you the best we can to work through the difficulties of a relationship with a BPD.  I suggest you all take the time to read through the material on the right of this page.  It's the beginning of a blueprint to help move things in a more positive direction when you do get the chance.  One thing many of us have learned, we cannot fix or control them, but we can change how we react to and communicate with them... .and that can mean a lot.   

[Beck20ish]

Hi Patrick1991,
I'm unsure myself what I think if I'm honest.
In one sense she'd always told me how she becomes like this and pushes people away but we never discussed what I should or shouldn't do when she's like it.
I think the circumstances of our relationship just got too much for her and she's protecting herself in one way but in another I'm wondering if she took all the love I could give till I said ok by this summer we will be together and then just got bored as the chase was done.
She gave me a mug for Christmas with a rabbit hiding behind a newspaper, then she asked if I knew why she'd chosen it. I assumed it was because the maker had my name but jokingly said does it tell me I'm dumped at which point she snapped at me" oh you're funny, at some point you'll understand"
I thought she was depressed so have tried my hardest to be reassuring but after reading lots online it would seem she's basically abusing me by remaining silent while i'm pouring out my heart and heartbroken and that she will maybe at some point come back to get a feel good fix then kick me to the curb again!

[patrick1991]

Beck20ish, your story just resonates with me and has so many similarities. She told me the same as well that shes pushes people away, but when i tried to understand why she did it or what can i do in the future she didn't want to discuss it really and it was like at that moment i knew it would happen again, but i tried to put it to the back of my mind because i love her so much.

I've been pouring my heart out as well and the more i read it really doesn't help at all which is frustrating and i'm to think that at some point she will come crawling back so i can tell her how amazing she is before she goes awol again. I think the advice i've been given and what i've read is to stop contacting her because its making me look clingy and desperate (even though i feel like i haven't just telling her how special she is) and hopefully when shes ready she will contact me and then i can get some boundaries set in place for when it happens again. How do you feel about going no contact yourself? How often do you message her?

[patrick1991]

I agree ibean. You'll always have it at the back of your mind what your partner is capable of and how they can just detach from you so easily after loving you. I don't know whats going to happen with me and my partner after 6 weeks shes been quiet. I don't know if she will ever come back, but its definitely made me stronger and wiser if she comes back and does it again.   

[PeteWitsend]

I think if you read the "success" stories, you'll find that they really aren't successful.  And honestly I have to laugh at the word success. The relationships are still fraught with abuse and neglect for the non.   It all boils down to what do you want to put up with?  It will never be a normal loving equal relationship.  It's not possible.  And your kids will bear the scars their entire lives.

yeah... .At this point I'm almost completely resigned to this viewpoint.

The constant fights aren't as bad as the surprise ones.  and those are the ones that really get concerning & draining over time.  I can steel myself and acclimate to long weeks of constant fights and sniping... .(i may have a thousand yard stare by the end of it) ... .but There have been a number of times I think we're good, she started the day happy, we're doing something together or as a family and then *SLAM* I'm being confronted with something I said or didn't say, or something that happened a year ago, and told I didn't meet her expectations, or she's not over it.  OR Randomly asked if I really love her or would divorce her -out of the blue - and then dealing with her running away in tears when the answer she got wasn't what she hoped to hear (no matter how reassuring I tried to be).  OR How easily a happy situation - eg opening presents on christmas, or a date night - can get toxic when some random past memory or fight comes to her mind.

I've been married almost 4 years, w/2 kids, and I've pretty much given up hope.

I shake my head reading accounts from people who aren't in committed relationships with a pwBPD... .look there are more fish in the sea!  being lonely for a few months is much easier to bear than years of marriage where the only out is a painful divorce and separation of assets... .and it there are children involved, joint custody and continuous contact and fights over them.

if you're considering committing to a relationship with a pwBPD - or at least who strongly displays many of the characteristics - get help for yourself first.  Do it quietly if need be.  don't rush into this, and consider whether some personal issue is leading you into it... .fear of loneliness, abandonment, etc.  I should have done this a long time ago.

[Meili]

I have a totally different view on this than the last few posters.

It is possible to have a stable relationship with a pwBPD. There are success stories out there. BPD is just a challenge that both partners need to accept and deal with in order to make it happen.

It's very easy to blame the disorder for the relationship woes. But, the disorder is only part of the equation. The non is 100% for 50% of the relationship. Let's compare BPD to alcoholism. Can a relationship with a severe alcoholic work and become stable? Yep.

The intensity of the illness and willingness to deal with the problem become paramount in the success of the relationship. Just like with the severe alcoholic, the pwBPD has to be willing to work on the relationship.

In both types of relationships, the non can help keep the things alive, but it will eventually take both parties to make things sustainable long term.

[Beck20ish]

Today I have had mixed emotions, going from anger at myself for allowing myself to belive that I was everything she said she ever wanted and feeling so loved, and so special after such a short amount of time to anger at her for being so 100% perfect and everything I ever wanted,  which was a lie. Then I feel a great sense of sorrow for her as I know she is essentially broken inside and maybe feeling things 100x worse than I do as she believes I lied to her and didn't live up
To her expectations. Somthe silent treatment is obviously my punishment.
After talking it through with my mum a mental health worker I've identified "how I disrespected her" and as hard as it is and as lost as I feel right now I know I couldn't deal with the level of egg shells I'd need to walk on to be  with her as no matter I do it would never be enough!
It almost feels like I should have known better as if something seems too good to be true it usually is!

[Duped 1]

It's very easy to blame the disorder for the relationship woes. But, the disorder is only part of the equation. The non is 100% for 50% of the relationship. Let's compare BPD to alcoholism. Can a relationship with a severe alcoholic work and become stable? Yep.

I respectfully disagree with this. When dealing with a mentally ill person I don't feel the non can truly influence 50% of the relationship because these relationships are not-balanced and all about the self-centeredness and needs of the pwBPD in my non expert opinion. Now if the pwBPD is willing to own their part and seek the necessary help then it's probably closer, but still not 50% on the non in my opinion.

[Meili]

I can see why you say that Duped 1. I strongly suspect that most, if not all, nons don't completely understand what is going on in their relationship with a pwBPD. They are doing the best that they can with the tools that they have at the time.

I know that before I found the  bpdfamily, I lacked many of the tools necessary to navigate a relationship. I would JADE, had almost no boundaries, lacked empathy, and was forever invalidating. I escalated the chaos at every corner. My insecurities kept me involved and engaged.

That's what I meant when I said 50%. I was responsible for own actions. I chose to engage or not to engage. I escalated situations that could have been quashed at the onset.

When I learned to own my part in things, I was able to look at why I did them and understand how to change them. Had I simply blamed my x for most or all of the problems, I would have never looked at my own issues and I'd still be stuck in the cycle.

[drained1996]

To follow Meili... .by doing what he did... .which was to be introspective and understand and acknowledge his own part in the dance.  Once understood he was able to use the tools and lessons here to get things to a place that was better. 

I experienced much of the same, stubborn as I am, I learned my own part in the dysfunction in therapy.  I wasn't even taking care of my 50% by a long shot... .so she actually had some legit complaints!  Does it equal out to 50/50?  It may if they put in their work.  If they aren't willing, but we are, and we try... .then we can assess the situation and act accordingly.  In my own process, when I improved so did the relationship. 

[Duped 1]

To follow Meili... .by doing what he did... .which was to be introspective and understand and acknowledge his own part in the dance.  Once understood he was able to use the tools and lessons here to get things to a place that was better. 

I experienced much of the same, stubborn as I am, I learned my own part in the dysfunction in therapy.  I wasn't even taking care of my 50% by a long shot... .so she actually had some legit complaints!  Does it equal out to 50/50?  It may if they put in their work.  If they aren't willing, but we are, and we try... .then we can assess the situation and act accordingly.  In my own process, when I improved so did the relationship. 

Yes I certainly understand the the rs improved with a different approach and I was clearly part of the dysfunction with my reactions. That being said I still do not feel we can really positively impact half of the rs when the other is not willing to admit or acknowledge their part and provides a steady infusion of toxicity into the rs in the form of anger, belittling, constant criticism and blame, self centeredness no consideration of the others needs, verbal insults and attacks, threatening to leave over minor issues, etc.

[Meili]

For clarification purposes, I was not suggesting that a person can "positively impact half of the rs when the other is not willing to admit or acknowledge their part."

What I was saying is that we are all responsible for half of the relationship. The relationship consists of two people. Each person is half of the relationship. Each person is solely responsible for his/her actions, good or bad, within the relationship.

When we continue to blame the other person for our own actions, we fail to acknowledge our part.

If one person resorts to name calling (their 50%), we are 100% responsible for how we choose to respond (our 50%). Ignoring our half means that we are ignoring our own motivations and that's what keeps us trapped.

[SuperJew82]

Pete speaks from Wisdom.

 I'm trying to repair myself from a year and a half of emotional torture. My very good friend, who happens to be of the caretaking personality as well ( maybe that's why we are such good friends ) got stuck in a divorce with two kids with a BPD. We caretakers are open season specials for BPD sufferers. I would have a different opinion if someone was involved with a "recovering" BPD individual that was already going to therapy for years on their own accord - but this is rarely the case.

Mine got accidently diagnosed when I told her to stop stealing my adderall (ADHD meds) and properly get your own script. She expected to see the Dr and get a quick script, but instead walked out of the office dizzy with bewilderment and a personality disorder diagnosis. While she was in the daze, she shared the paperwork with me... .later to deny that it ever happened. I really think she believed what she was saying as they will distort past events to wrap around their emotions.

Right now you can easily do a course correction and make your life not suck.

Before you make any commitments - you better follow the words of the great philosopher Ice Cube and... .check yourself!

-rh

[talks to angels]

So it appears that some people believe in fairy tales.
How does anyone actually believe that they played 50% in the demise of these relationships? Well maybe you did, but I can say without hesitation that I did not. I tried, the "pick and choose your battles" approach with mine. No what it got me? Him pushing the boundary line further and further. I cant count how many times I told him I would never leave I was in it for life.
Questioning80, yes I get it when you say their shame spirals them, but for most of us they treat us with such cruelty, and when they go silent with no explanation, come back and throw it all back on us with no remorse. In what way is my expressing that I am hurt no acceptable? So if we actually never have feelings and do not express our hurt it can work. How is it that there is some expectation for us to just take the abuse from those who are not remorseful for their actions? In what way is having a mental illness an excuse to abuse? They wreck the person closest to them self-esteem, and confidence and leave them for dead.

[SuperJew82]

In my ideal world, BPD sufferers would have to go to a mandatory two years of solid therapy before they are issued their dating license... .

[SuperJew82]

joking of course... .but the sad part is that the disorder can be made tolerable if they stick in therapy long enough... .but mine couldn't and I hear that is not uncommon for them to avoid help. They seem to only do it if it is strategic to avoiding abandonment.

[Beck20ish]

My gf and I had only been together 3 months when she went silent so guess that's what i would have been in for a lot had the relationship gone any further, having read a lot since she went nc I've learnt that she was mirroring my need and emotion and that wasn't the real her at all.
I obviously have issues myself which need to be addressed, and although I feel sad and heartbroken, I see that she has in the short tamount of time together taught me a lesson x

[SuperJew82]

If she really was BPD and you are realizing everything this quickly. You have got off luckily. Yes , you can't blame everyone for these situations... .We made these choices. We have to figure out why and make sure we don't subject ourselves to it again. You are smart for figuring this out so early. I was not as intelligent - as it took me a year. I'm NC for a little over a month and I'm very proud of myself. It hurts, but man I was in hell. I did the right thing. I'm a single dad of two little girls... .I have to do it for them, if not for me.

[SuperJew82]

I still need validation everyday. I read articles and stories that mirror mine exactly and I know I made the healthy choice. Hopefully after a while I won't need to visit these pages for reassurance - but I am still afraid of falling back in. I had to block her on every form of communication that existed. I never had someone come back at me with that intensity. I'm free and you should be thankful you are as well.

Oh yea they will transform into your dreamgirl before they go turn into something from hell.

[heartandmind]

Questioning80, yes I get it when you say their shame spirals them, but for most of us they treat us with such cruelty, and when they go silent with no explanation, come back and throw it all back on us with no remorse.
In what way is my expressing that I am hurt not acceptable? So if we actually never have feelings and do not express our hurt it can work. How is it that there is some expectation for us to just take the abuse from those who are not remorseful for their actions? In what way is having a mental illness an excuse to abuse? They wreck the person closest to them self-esteem, and confidence and leave them for dead.

Of course, there are different "shades" of BPD. My ex always took full accountability for her actions but just couldn't break her habits. Because of this, she has shown great remorse after going silent and disappearing. She also never raged or picked fights. Of course, none of this would ever improve without a great deal of therapy, which she was not necessarily getting. She was most definitely a waif, so I had many other issues to deal with... .she would just shut down completely for months at a time, which quite honestly could be arguably more aggravating.

Should I have been in a situation where things were more hostile, perhaps I would react differently. However, this is not something that I can speak to given my situation and circumstance.

As unrealistic as this can sound, never taking it personally is the ultimate way to go. The minute I stopped relating her actions to be responses to myself as a person was the exact moment that I reached freedom, total sympathy (and sometimes even empathy), and inner peace.

It is a journey, for sure. I suppose it's just a matter of whether someone is willing to put in all of their time to even possibly make it work then or at some point in the future.

All just my two cents and experience!

[talks to angels]

I suppose it's just a matter of whether someone is willing to put in all of their time to even possibly make it work then or at some point in the future.

Seriously. I find this insulting! I put in the work I was patience, kind and loving. And I was not over sensitive.
 I think maybe yours was just depressed, either that or you were really not that close. what you are describing is not BPD. Trust me BPD destroy the ones closest to them.  You said she is not in treatment so how do you know she is BPD?

[heartandmind]

I suppose it's just a matter of whether someone is willing to put in all of their time to even possibly make it work then or at some point in the future.

Seriously. I find this insulting! I put in the work I was patience, kind and loving. And I was not over sensitive.
 I think maybe yours was just depressed, either that or you were really not that close. what you are describing is not BPD. Trust me BPD destroy the ones closest to them.  You said she is not in treatment so how do you know she is BPD?

She was clinically diagnosed. Multiple times. Had been going to therapy since she was just a child. She was simply not attending therapy regularly at the time that we were together.

I dated her for years and she was my best friend in the world. We knew no one better than we knew each other... .we were close. As close as close could possibly be.

She never raged or fought with me though, and that is still a certain form of BPD, of course! BPD is simply marked emotional dysregulation and an ultimate fear of abandonment and, at some points, intimacy. She did destroy me, trust me, but not in an outlash-y way like many here's SOs did. She was a waif, so she destroyed me in a way where she would dysregulate and disappear and leave me without my second half, my heart, my soul... .abandon me without any sign or warning at the drop of a hat, only to return soon thereafter. Of course, this is cruel and sent me into a downspin, whether she meant it or not.

Perhaps you misunderstood what I was trying to say – I was the best partner in the world to my ex as well, but it was still never going to work out if she was not getting intensive assistance. Since our breakup I have put months and months and months into researching the disorder, speaking to sufferers firsthand, reading every book imaginable, and so on, just trying to learn the ropes so if she ever does come back, I am well equipped and will not make nearly the same amount of mistakes I did in the past.

No harm meant and it certainly wasn't directed towards you-- I do not know your story or your attempts, I was just speaking generally regarding how much work people are looking to put in to understand the disorder, its triggers, and downfalls. There are some people who don't think it's worth it to continue soldiering on, learning, researching, discovering, and that's fine as well. Doesn't make them any worse of a person, we're all human and have our breaking points. That is all that I was getting at.

[talks to angels]

i get it sorry, guess it just triggered me when I read that. I obviously have huge issues with anyone suggesting that if I did things differently we could have worked. I even tried the not pointing out any of the thousands of lies at one point and continual reassurance that I wasnt going to go anywhere. Did it work? Nope. In away I think they hate that we can feel and love with extreme depth, and it is such an extreme jealously that they are hell bent on destroying anyone that gets close to them.

[heartandmind]

i get it sorry, guess it just triggered me when I read that. I obviously have huge issues with anyone suggesting that if I did things differently we could have worked. I even tried the not pointing out any of the thousands of lies at one point and continual reassurance that I wasnt going to go anywhere. Did it work? Nope. In away I think they hate that we can feel and love with extreme depth, and it is such an extreme jealously that they are hell bent on destroying anyone that gets close to them.

I understand.

I think dealing with BPD is so frustrating as well because it really can be such a chameleon of a spectrum disorder. My ex partner never lied to me (or at least I never ever caught her?), so I can't relate to that. As silly as it is, I wish there were sub-forums where certain SO's of pwBPD could gather given their symptoms - rage, lying, abandonment, shut downs, etc. Though given that over 100 combinations of the 5 of 9 DSM4 symptoms needed for diagnosis exist, I suppose though the possibilities are quite endless  If only!

[Duped 1]

I don't feel it's realistic to suggest that the non would typically contribute 50% to the demise of the rs with a mentally ill partner. That just doesn't make any sense to me. Maybe if the pwBPD is completely committed to improvement and actively seeking help but even then I feel it would be rare that it's 50/50. Heck there are counselors that understand the tools who still won't deal With these people because they can be so difficult. I know a couple Who have told me so

[talks to angels]

 Duped 1 - Someone ahem (clearing throat) has their mailbox full

[Meili]

I don't feel it's realistic to suggest that the non would typically contribute 50% to the demise of the rs with a mentally ill partner.

Who, then, do you feel is responsible for the non's actions during the relationship?

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Duped 1]

The non  is of course responsible for their actions but if the BPD is bringing constant chaos  and conflict to the rs the non is certainly not responsible for 50 % of the denise of the rs. It's like a constant stream of poison. In a balanced rs it would be 50/50 in my opinion but certainly not when one party is seriously disordered and disrespectful on a routine basis

[Meili]

OK, so we agree that the non is 100% responsible for his or her own actions?

Perhaps this paragraph from Are we victims? will help explain:

Our dreams and fantasies are that the pwBPD in our lives will suddenly get therapy and become “cured”.  If they were “cured”, then supposedly everything would be OK. Sadly, this dream misses a major component – us.  We too, are sick. How you may ask? Because it takes two people for an argument. It takes two people for emotional blackmail to work. It takes two people if someone is being abused. It takes two for most of lifes events. We choose to stand there and listen as they screamed and yelled at us. We choose to not walk away when things became uncomfortable. We choose to plead with them during the long stretches of silent treatment.  We choose to continue living there. We choose to stay in contact. These are choices that we made. Yes, they were out of love, but love for whom? Why did we love them more than we love ourselves? Why didn’t we protect ourselves? Why didn’t we take care of ourselves? Without changes in us, things are doomed to fail.

In saving our relationships, we must understand our role in them. It's easy to blame someone else and ignore our part. I strongly suggest that you read Understanding your role in the relationship. It helped me understand just how much I contributed to the relationship problems. This was the first step in acknowledging what I needed to do to change. Had I continued blamed my uBPDexgf for all of the problems, I never would have learned and grown. The lines of communication never would have been able to be reopened and I never would have had the opportunity to start to close the rift between us.

That's the thing, we are only responsible for ourselves and our own actions, as we agreed. We are not responsible for, or in control of, our pwBPD. As a result, all that we can possibly change is ourselves. If we don't accept our part in the relationship, we cannot effectuate the kinds of meaningful changes that are required to save and improve the relationship.

If we decide that we are only, say, 25% responsible for the relationship, then we are saying that we can only change 25% of the relationship.

[talks to angels]

Ok I can honestly say that I DID NOT have any responsibility for the demise of mine. It is ridiculous to say that because you question a lie, that you should not have, and because I questioned a lie that I am responsible. ALL of our fights were from a lie. So you are saying I should have just not questioned? That is crazy in itself. With normal people you can and should be able to ask a question without it turning into a full blown rage all over you. So NO i take 0 responsibility for mine. Go ahead if you want to keep beating yourself up with should have , could have. Would you blame a physical abuse victim? Would you ever ask, well what is you percentage of responsibility for getting hit in the face? This is ridiculous.

And do not twist this. I can see how I am not perfect but this was a loosing battle.

[Meili]

So you are saying I should have just not questioned? That is crazy in itself. With normal people you can and should be able to ask a question without it turning into a full blown rage all over you.

No, I am not suggesting that a lie should not be questioned. But, there were probably better, more effective ways that you could have raised the question and it might have produced different results.

It appears to me that you are frustrated with this discussion and annoyed by the prospect that you could have handled things differently and produced a different result. I get that. I was there for a long time. I blamed my uBPDexgf for everything that was happening... .that if she'd just be open and honest, if she would just not insult me, if only she didn't isolate me... .

It wasn't until I realized that I accepted what she was giving me, that I also took part in the arguments, and that I voluntarily gave up my friends to be with her that things started to improve for me.

It also looks to me that you are accusing me of victim blaming. That is not the case. I am simply pointing out that had I made different choices, the situation would have been different.

I can tell you that when I was in a physically abusive relationship, I could not get out until I understood and realized that I was staying in that relationship. I was responsible for that. I wasn't responsible for the physical violence, but I was responsible for going back each time. (again, my 50% of the relationship.) To stop the violence, I simply needed to remove myself from the situation.

Accepting my own actions and the consequences is not beating myself up either. It's actually the complete opposite; it was therapeutic and healing. It has allowed me to make changes in my life to never find myself in a relationship like I had the past. It has also allowed me to be healthier in my relationship with myself.

[talks to angels]

In my situation again NO. I calmly would ask. I guess this topic is frustrating. Read more, these are not Mentally Healthy people, there is NO WAY to communicate. That is part of their disorder.

All of you trying to heal, do not let this get into your head. They are mentally ill. No matter what choices you made the end would have been the same. In a healthy relationship, yes see what you can improve on.

With mentally ill people, move on, do not get stuck in the "what part did I play". Move on heal. Do not try to figure out how you can meet another mentally ill person and make it work long term. Learn how to see them and DO NOT get romantically involved with them.

[FallBack!Monster]

  these are not Mentally Healthy people, there is NO WAY to communicate.    That is part of their disorder.   Donot get stuck in the "what part did I play". Move on heal. Do not try to figure out how you can meet another mentally ill person and make it work long term. Learn how to see them and DO NOT get romantically involved with them.

[michel71]

In my situation again NO. I calmly would ask. I guess this topic is frustrating. Read more, these are not Mentally Healthy people, there is NO WAY to communicate. That is part of their disorder.

All of you trying to heal, do not let this get into your head. They are mentally ill. No matter what choices you made the end would have been the same. In a healthy relationship, yes see what you can improve on.

With mentally ill people, move on, do not get stuck in the "what part did I play". Move on heal. Do not try to figure out how you can meet another mentally ill person and make it work long term. Learn how to see them and DO NOT get romantically involved with them.

Here here! I totally agree!

[michel71]

I bent over backwards trying this tool and that tool. I prayed and cried and listened with empathy. Nothing mattered. I continued to be shat upon and yes, I stayed too long in the name of love and devotion hoping that my efforts, unilaterally would help but it never did. So I had to make a choice, her or me. I chose ME.

I did everything I could to save us. She did efff all.

She would never admit that she did anything wrong at all. No accountability whatsoever. Even denied the physical abuse. Said that I abused her! What the heck.

Insanity.

[Duped 1]

Saying that the non-abusive person is just as responsible as the abusive, disordered person for the demise of the relationship is just not true in any way, shape, or form.

[once removed]

She would never admit that she did anything wrong at all. No accountability whatsoever.

so why is the notion that we are responsible for and accountable to ourselves and our relationships such a threat to us?

[patientandclear]

OK, so we agree that the non is 100% responsible for his or her own actions?

Perhaps this paragraph from Are we victims? will help explain:

In saving our relationships, we must understand our role in them. It's easy to blame someone else and ignore our part. I strongly suggest that you read Understanding your role in the relationship. It helped me understand just how much I contributed to the relationship problems. This was the first step in acknowledging what I needed to do to change. Had I continued blamed my uBPDexgf for all of the problems, I never would have learned and grown. The lines of communication never would have been able to be reopened and I never would have had the opportunity to start to close the rift between us.

That's the thing, we are only responsible for ourselves and our own actions, as we agreed. We are not responsible for, or in control of, our pwBPD. As a result, all that we can possibly change is ourselves. If we don't accept our part in the relationship, we cannot effectuate the kinds of meaningful changes that are required to save and improve the relationship.

If we decide that we are only, say, 25% responsible for the relationship, then we are saying that we can only change 25% of the relationship.

We can behave in a healthy way that is respectful of ourselves and the pwBPD in our lives. But that is not the same as saying the relationship will "work out" (which was the framing question of this thread). The more healthy my response to dynamics in my BPD relationship, the less it worked out. The pwBPD in my life wasn't up for that. I did indeed do the "healthy" things listed in the para Meili quoted and as a result, our relationship is over.

The idea that we always need to check ourselves and critically examine if we're showing up in a way that honors ourselves, our loved ones and the relationship itself is obviously useful. It has a close cousin that is not so useful and indeed can be downright damaging: that it's on us to contort and understand and not take personally toxic manipulation and being used, and adapt our healthy expectations enough that the relationship can survive. So it can "work out." Those are actually very different ideas and it's important not to confuse them. Otherwise we can be practically teaching a course on how to stay in an abusive relationship. Which is the opposite of the thrust of the quote Meili shared. It is really important not to fall into a false equation that if you improve your own part of the relationship, it will likely "work out."

Some of the people writing on this thread about owning one's own 50% have done a fine job of that AND their relationships have not "worked out." There used to be more overt acknowledgement on this board that that may often be the way it goes.

[talks to angels]

We are accountable for ourselves. I dont think that was ever said that we were not. The notion that our actions were the demise of the relationship with a mentally disordered person is the issue.

There is no way to calmly question them on anything. Yes I get they are mentally disordered, but they are pathological lairs, and once you find out a lie they will go to any extent to protect their image, there is no diplomatic way to discuss anything with them. They are master manipulators, protecting their image at all cost and destroying anyone who the perceive as a threat to that image.

It is dangerous to tell people in an abusive relationship otherwise, this is what keeps nons going back, it is because the Mentally Disordered person convinces them that it was their fault.

These people are abusive. So you would advise someone who was hit and tell him/her that maybe if you had questioned them in a different way, they would not have hit you? That makes you the crazy one.

[once removed]

It is really important not to fall into a false equation that if you improve your own part of the relationship, it will likely "work out."

i couldnt agree more. i think if id had the tools at the time, i could have reduced stress and conflict in my relationship. probably had better communication on both ends. i simply dont think it was ultimately the "right" relationship for me, and it was necessary that it ended.

"does it ever work out" is a very broad question in that regard. we all have our own definition as to what that means. our relationships and situations are as much on a spectrum as the disorder itself. there are members that have reached what they call a success story. there are stories that sure sound every bit successful to me. there are stories like  patientandclear shared, who gave their best, but soberly reminds us that one person cannot a relationship save or make "work". sometimes two people can love each other very much, and simply not work, as was my case.

There is no way to calmly question them on anything. Yes I get they are mentally disordered, but they are pathological lairs, and once you find out a lie they will go to any extent to protect their image, there is no diplomatic way to discuss anything with them. They are master manipulators, protecting their image at all cost and destroying anyone who the perceive as a threat to that image.

so when we extrapolate our individual experience, generalize it to "they", and apply it to others in different experiences and situations, where a complex, spectrum disorder is concerned, we are missing a huge part of the picture, and inadvertently, if well intentioned and sincere, may do our fellow family members a disservice.

as for the OP, there are a thousand different answers. this is why it helps to keep the emphasis on our experience and ongoing relationship dynamics, get constructive feedback and support, learn the tools and practice them. its at that point, whether it "works out" or not, that we can say we gave it our best shot, no regrets, and maintain our dignity in the process.

and if it doesnt work out? those tools have improved every close relationship i have, and helped me to navigate a world full of difficult people.

[Curiously1]

Hi all,

Do you believe the quote "water seeks its own level?" I think it may be related to this thread.

What patientandclear pointed out is profound.

The more healthy my response to dynamics in my BPD relationship, the less it worked out. The pwBPD in my life wasn't up for that. I did indeed do the "healthy" things listed in the para Meili quoted and as a result, our relationship is over.

Would we have been in a romantic relationship with someone with BPD if we were healthy ourselves? I am just wondering. I found that when I spoke up, and did the right things for myself consequently it made my particular pwBPD in my life want to let go of our relationship altogether and find another 'enabler.'
I have heard of this from YouTube video too that sometimes when you improve and the dynamics change, that gets your partner uncomfortable and worse because they are not used to it.

Similar to what Meili was stating about the 50/50 responsibility in a relationship... .if both unhealthy individuals who got together are striving to be healthy then aren't they being 50/50 responsible in their own way?

Like how do you measure effort and contributing to the relationship for someone mentally ill?
Let's put it like school grades.
Say a healthy person can naturally get A+ grades
Say one of us nons can improve and get an A+ within a year of hard work on ourselves.
Say a pwBPD can get an A+ in double or triple that amount of time
If all of us are working to get the A+ do we look down on the pwBPD because it takes them longer to meet the grade? Does that mean that the amount of effort/contribution they had was not enough based on our standards/how much faster we are at getting an A+?
I think our expectations of them plays a huge part of it working out or not. However, I would still not support being in a relationship with a pwBPD who isn't trying  or very abusive. They are already difficult people to be with because of their disorder and them not trying is then what I would truly call an unbalanced and unworkable relationship.

I hope that makes sense.

From the outsider looking in, or from our perspectives perhaps we take on more responsibility than we should but then we chose to as well. We need to question, why we do that and why they are comfortable not making as much effort. What you may find is that the non and BPD actually do meet each others needs but in destructive ways to both of us. We enabled them as much as they enabled us. Have we not tried to stick to our boundaries or healthier dynamics things may or may not have worked with our pwBPD depending on their willingness to also try change and make the relationship work. It's not impossible for relationships with a pwBPD to work however, in order for to it be a true happy coupling both would need to change, and strive to get a lot healthier imo.

[heartandmind]

I found that when I spoke up, and did the right things for myself consequently it made my particular pwBPD in my life want to let go of our relationship altogether and find another 'enabler.'
I have heard of this from YouTube video too that sometimes when you improve and the dynamics change, that gets your partner uncomfortable and worse because they are not used to it.

This is an interesting point.

Funny enough, I have spoken to some pwBPD who say that they are incredibly grateful for their partners and ex-partners who held firm boundaries and called them out (respectfully and calmly, I could imagine) for their infractions. They spoke of how they became their regulators in the end and of what "messes" they would be without their guidance.

Because we are speaking of such a wide spectrum disorder, I think it is (of course) important to also note that there are some individuals with the disorder who will never take responsibility for their actions and therefore will run at the drop of a hat at someone who points out poor behavior and find - as you said - another enabler.

I have truly seen it go both ways though, so generalizing is tricky. One is obviously "better" for the non than the other though, of course!

[Auspicious]

Would we have been in a romantic relationship with someone with BPD if we were healthy ourselves?

It was humbling for me to realize - after much learning and discussion on  bpdfamily - that my dBPDw and I were really at the same level of emotional maturity when we got together. Our deficits were not the same - mine would not eventually land me in psych wards - but the level was. I was needy, vulnerable, too willing to accept her dysfunction in return for those shining moments when she would put me on that pedestal.

Does it ever work out?  It can. My wife went through DBT, and is much improved, though still very impaired. I've chosen to stay - so living with someone who is emotionally impaired is not something that is being done to me, it's something I've chosen to do. And it always was. That's where owning my role comes in.

We all have to make our own choices

[michel71]

I was needy, vulnerable, too willing to accept her dysfunction in return for those shining moments when she would put me on that pedestal.

I just thought that if I loved her harder or she felt safe with me or could fully trust me then certain negative behaviors would stop. At the beginning of our relationship I did not know it was "dysfunction". I just thought she was a sensitive woman who has been hurt by others. I knew that I was not going to let her down and I truly felt that she would see this after a while. Of course that never happened. Her behaviors got worse. I was in hell.
Then I started to research and stumbled upon BPD and it all made sense.

[michel71]

I didn't finish my post. What I meant to add was that I admit that I was needy and vulnerable and too willing to accept the bad treatment for mere morsels of "white". I have come to realize that I am co-dependent, have weak boundaries resulting from a narcissistic mother that I was always trying to please.

[Reforming]

Hi all,

I think patientnclear has made a very valid point.

There are partners who try their best to take responsibility for their own behaviour, who behave healthily in their relationship who don't end up with their desired outcome.

It's not helpful to either partner to deny the profound impact of a personality disorder or any mental illness has on a relationship or family. There are huge challenges for everyone involved. Feeling anger at disrespectful or cruel behaviour and grief at the loss of a relationship is normal and healthy.

There are some positive outcomes but both partners need to be willing to do a lot of work and even then there are no guarantees.

We need to be realistic here about the effort, courage and perseverance that's needed for deep change and I'm not just talking about those suffering from personality disorders.

Most of us have an innate resistance to change - it's our default. Change and growth is possible but my own experience of therapy and personal development is that it's a long slog. It's very easy to feel frustrated and hopeless by the time and commitment required.

I don't think that it's helpful to break down blame or responsibility into percentages.

I do think that the 50/50 ratio can be used a little glibly and it does not reflect every relationship. But does it actually make matter whether it's 20/80, 40/60 or 10/9 when ultimately what most of us want or wanted is a positive outcome.

The important thing is taking responsibility for our own part whatever that is or was and learning from it. That does not mean condoning or accepting abusive behaviour or staying in a relationship that's destructive. It does mean owning our own choices and reevaluating some some the beliefs or assumptions that underpinned our own behaviour.

Good thread

Reforming