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Author Topic: Does it ever work out?  (Read 901 times)
Meili
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« Reply #30 on: January 15, 2017, 08:47:38 PM »

I don't feel it's realistic to suggest that the non would typically contribute 50% to the demise of the rs with a mentally ill partner.

Who, then, do you feel is responsible for the non's actions during the relationship?
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« Reply #31 on: January 15, 2017, 09:13:48 PM »

The non  is of course responsible for their actions but if the BPD is bringing constant chaos  and conflict to the rs the non is certainly not responsible for 50 % of the denise of the rs. It's like a constant stream of poison. In a balanced rs it would be 50/50 in my opinion but certainly not when one party is seriously disordered and disrespectful on a routine basis
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Meili
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« Reply #32 on: January 15, 2017, 09:52:11 PM »

OK, so we agree that the non is 100% responsible for his or her own actions?

Perhaps this paragraph from Are we victims? will help explain:

Excerpt
Our dreams and fantasies are that the pwBPD in our lives will suddenly get therapy and become “cured”.  If they were “cured”, then supposedly everything would be OK. Sadly, this dream misses a major component – us.  We too, are sick. How you may ask? Because it takes two people for an argument. It takes two people for emotional blackmail to work. It takes two people if someone is being abused. It takes two for most of lifes events. We choose to stand there and listen as they screamed and yelled at us. We choose to not walk away when things became uncomfortable. We choose to plead with them during the long stretches of silent treatment.  We choose to continue living there. We choose to stay in contact. These are choices that we made. Yes, they were out of love, but love for whom? Why did we love them more than we love ourselves? Why didn’t we protect ourselves? Why didn’t we take care of ourselves? Without changes in us, things are doomed to fail.

In saving our relationships, we must understand our role in them. It's easy to blame someone else and ignore our part. I strongly suggest that you read Understanding your role in the relationship. It helped me understand just how much I contributed to the relationship problems. This was the first step in acknowledging what I needed to do to change. Had I continued blamed my uBPDexgf for all of the problems, I never would have learned and grown. The lines of communication never would have been able to be reopened and I never would have had the opportunity to start to close the rift between us.

That's the thing, we are only responsible for ourselves and our own actions, as we agreed. We are not responsible for, or in control of, our pwBPD. As a result, all that we can possibly change is ourselves. If we don't accept our part in the relationship, we cannot effectuate the kinds of meaningful changes that are required to save and improve the relationship.

If we decide that we are only, say, 25% responsible for the relationship, then we are saying that we can only change 25% of the relationship.

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talks to angels
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« Reply #33 on: January 15, 2017, 10:14:17 PM »

Ok I can honestly say that I DID NOT have any responsibility for the demise of mine. It is ridiculous to say that because you question a lie, that you should not have, and because I questioned a lie that I am responsible. ALL of our fights were from a lie. So you are saying I should have just not questioned? That is crazy in itself. With normal people you can and should be able to ask a question without it turning into a full blown rage all over you. So NO i take 0 responsibility for mine. Go ahead if you want to keep beating yourself up with should have , could have. Would you blame a physical abuse victim? Would you ever ask, well what is you percentage of responsibility for getting hit in the face? This is ridiculous.

And do not twist this. I can see how I am not perfect but this was a loosing battle.
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Meili
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« Reply #34 on: January 15, 2017, 10:45:16 PM »

So you are saying I should have just not questioned? That is crazy in itself. With normal people you can and should be able to ask a question without it turning into a full blown rage all over you.

No, I am not suggesting that a lie should not be questioned. But, there were probably better, more effective ways that you could have raised the question and it might have produced different results.

It appears to me that you are frustrated with this discussion and annoyed by the prospect that you could have handled things differently and produced a different result. I get that. I was there for a long time. I blamed my uBPDexgf for everything that was happening... .that if she'd just be open and honest, if she would just not insult me, if only she didn't isolate me... .

It wasn't until I realized that I accepted what she was giving me, that I also took part in the arguments, and that I voluntarily gave up my friends to be with her that things started to improve for me.

It also looks to me that you are accusing me of victim blaming. That is not the case. I am simply pointing out that had I made different choices, the situation would have been different.

I can tell you that when I was in a physically abusive relationship, I could not get out until I understood and realized that I was staying in that relationship. I was responsible for that. I wasn't responsible for the physical violence, but I was responsible for going back each time. (again, my 50% of the relationship.) To stop the violence, I simply needed to remove myself from the situation.

Accepting my own actions and the consequences is not beating myself up either. It's actually the complete opposite; it was therapeutic and healing. It has allowed me to make changes in my life to never find myself in a relationship like I had the past. It has also allowed me to be healthier in my relationship with myself.
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« Reply #35 on: January 15, 2017, 11:05:16 PM »

In my situation again NO. I calmly would ask. I guess this topic is frustrating. Read more, these are not Mentally Healthy people, there is NO WAY to communicate. That is part of their disorder.

All of you trying to heal, do not let this get into your head. They are mentally ill. No matter what choices you made the end would have been the same. In a healthy relationship, yes see what you can improve on.

With mentally ill people, move on, do not get stuck in the "what part did I play". Move on heal. Do not try to figure out how you can meet another mentally ill person and make it work long term. Learn how to see them and DO NOT get romantically involved with them.

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« Reply #36 on: January 15, 2017, 11:30:21 PM »

Excerpt

 Bullet: important point (click to insert in post) these are not Mentally Healthy people, Bullet: contents of text or email (click to insert in post) there is NO WAY to communicate.  Bullet: contents of text or email (click to insert in post)  Bullet: completed (click to insert in post) That is part of their disorder. Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)  Donot get stuck in the "what part did I play". Move on heal. Do not try to figure out how you can meet another mentally ill person and make it work long term. Learn how to see them and DO NOT get romantically involved with them.
Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)
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michel71
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« Reply #37 on: January 15, 2017, 11:41:36 PM »

In my situation again NO. I calmly would ask. I guess this topic is frustrating. Read more, these are not Mentally Healthy people, there is NO WAY to communicate. That is part of their disorder.

All of you trying to heal, do not let this get into your head. They are mentally ill. No matter what choices you made the end would have been the same. In a healthy relationship, yes see what you can improve on.

With mentally ill people, move on, do not get stuck in the "what part did I play". Move on heal. Do not try to figure out how you can meet another mentally ill person and make it work long term. Learn how to see them and DO NOT get romantically involved with them.



Here here! I totally agree!
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michel71
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« Reply #38 on: January 15, 2017, 11:46:02 PM »

I bent over backwards trying this tool and that tool. I prayed and cried and listened with empathy. Nothing mattered. I continued to be shat upon and yes, I stayed too long in the name of love and devotion hoping that my efforts, unilaterally would help but it never did. So I had to make a choice, her or me. I chose ME.

I did everything I could to save us. She did efff all.

She would never admit that she did anything wrong at all. No accountability whatsoever. Even denied the physical abuse. Said that I abused her! What the heck.

Insanity.
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« Reply #39 on: January 16, 2017, 08:47:50 AM »

Saying that the non-abusive person is just as responsible as the abusive, disordered person for the demise of the relationship is just not true in any way, shape, or form.
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« Reply #40 on: January 16, 2017, 09:06:29 AM »

She would never admit that she did anything wrong at all. No accountability whatsoever.

so why is the notion that we are responsible for and accountable to ourselves and our relationships such a threat to us?
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patientandclear
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« Reply #41 on: January 16, 2017, 11:08:25 AM »

OK, so we agree that the non is 100% responsible for his or her own actions?

Perhaps this paragraph from Are we victims? will help explain:

In saving our relationships, we must understand our role in them. It's easy to blame someone else and ignore our part. I strongly suggest that you read Understanding your role in the relationship. It helped me understand just how much I contributed to the relationship problems. This was the first step in acknowledging what I needed to do to change. Had I continued blamed my uBPDexgf for all of the problems, I never would have learned and grown. The lines of communication never would have been able to be reopened and I never would have had the opportunity to start to close the rift between us.

That's the thing, we are only responsible for ourselves and our own actions, as we agreed. We are not responsible for, or in control of, our pwBPD. As a result, all that we can possibly change is ourselves. If we don't accept our part in the relationship, we cannot effectuate the kinds of meaningful changes that are required to save and improve the relationship.

If we decide that we are only, say, 25% responsible for the relationship, then we are saying that we can only change 25% of the relationship.



We can behave in a healthy way that is respectful of ourselves and the pwBPD in our lives. But that is not the same as saying the relationship will "work out" (which was the framing question of this thread). The more healthy my response to dynamics in my BPD relationship, the less it worked out. The pwBPD in my life wasn't up for that. I did indeed do the "healthy" things listed in the para Meili quoted and as a result, our relationship is over.

The idea that we always need to check ourselves and critically examine if we're showing up in a way that honors ourselves, our loved ones and the relationship itself is obviously useful. It has a close cousin that is not so useful and indeed can be downright damaging: that it's on us to contort and understand and not take personally toxic manipulation and being used, and adapt our healthy expectations enough that the relationship can survive. So it can "work out." Those are actually very different ideas and it's important not to confuse them. Otherwise we can be practically teaching a course on how to stay in an abusive relationship. Which is the opposite of the thrust of the quote Meili shared. It is really important not to fall into a false equation that if you improve your own part of the relationship, it will likely "work out."

Some of the people writing on this thread about owning one's own 50% have done a fine job of that AND their relationships have not "worked out." There used to be more overt acknowledgement on this board that that may often be the way it goes.
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« Reply #42 on: January 16, 2017, 11:18:35 AM »

We are accountable for ourselves. I dont think that was ever said that we were not. The notion that our actions were the demise of the relationship with a mentally disordered person is the issue.

There is no way to calmly question them on anything. Yes I get they are mentally disordered, but they are pathological lairs, and once you find out a lie they will go to any extent to protect their image, there is no diplomatic way to discuss anything with them. They are master manipulators, protecting their image at all cost and destroying anyone who the perceive as a threat to that image.

It is dangerous to tell people in an abusive relationship otherwise, this is what keeps nons going back, it is because the Mentally Disordered person convinces them that it was their fault.

These people are abusive. So you would advise someone who was hit and tell him/her that maybe if you had questioned them in a different way, they would not have hit you? That makes you the crazy one.
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« Reply #43 on: January 16, 2017, 11:39:44 AM »

It is really important not to fall into a false equation that if you improve your own part of the relationship, it will likely "work out."

i couldnt agree more. i think if id had the tools at the time, i could have reduced stress and conflict in my relationship. probably had better communication on both ends. i simply dont think it was ultimately the "right" relationship for me, and it was necessary that it ended.

"does it ever work out" is a very broad question in that regard. we all have our own definition as to what that means. our relationships and situations are as much on a spectrum as the disorder itself. there are members that have reached what they call a success story. there are stories that sure sound every bit successful to me. there are stories like  Bullet: contents of text or email (click to insert in post) patientandclear shared, who gave their best, but soberly reminds us that one person cannot a relationship save or make "work". sometimes two people can love each other very much, and simply not work, as was my case.

There is no way to calmly question them on anything. Yes I get they are mentally disordered, but they are pathological lairs, and once you find out a lie they will go to any extent to protect their image, there is no diplomatic way to discuss anything with them. They are master manipulators, protecting their image at all cost and destroying anyone who the perceive as a threat to that image.

so when we extrapolate our individual experience, generalize it to "they", and apply it to others in different experiences and situations, where a complex, spectrum disorder is concerned, we are missing a huge part of the picture, and inadvertently, if well intentioned and sincere, may do our fellow family members a disservice.

as for the OP, there are a thousand different answers. this is why it helps to keep the emphasis on our experience and ongoing relationship dynamics, get constructive feedback and support, learn the tools and practice them. its at that point, whether it "works out" or not, that we can say we gave it our best shot, no regrets, and maintain our dignity in the process.

and if it doesnt work out? those tools have improved every close relationship i have, and helped me to navigate a world full of difficult people.

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« Reply #44 on: January 16, 2017, 05:30:55 PM »

Hi all,

Do you believe the quote "water seeks its own level?" I think it may be related to this thread.

What patientandclear pointed out is profound.

The more healthy my response to dynamics in my BPD relationship, the less it worked out. The pwBPD in my life wasn't up for that. I did indeed do the "healthy" things listed in the para Meili quoted and as a result, our relationship is over.

Would we have been in a romantic relationship with someone with BPD if we were healthy ourselves? I am just wondering. I found that when I spoke up, and did the right things for myself consequently it made my particular pwBPD in my life want to let go of our relationship altogether and find another 'enabler.'
I have heard of this from YouTube video too that sometimes when you improve and the dynamics change, that gets your partner uncomfortable and worse because they are not used to it.

Similar to what Meili was stating about the 50/50 responsibility in a relationship... .if both unhealthy individuals who got together are striving to be healthy then aren't they being 50/50 responsible in their own way?

Like how do you measure effort and contributing to the relationship for someone mentally ill?
Let's put it like school grades.
Say a healthy person can naturally get A+ grades
Say one of us nons can improve and get an A+ within a year of hard work on ourselves.
Say a pwBPD can get an A+ in double or triple that amount of time
If all of us are working to get the A+ do we look down on the pwBPD because it takes them longer to meet the grade? Does that mean that the amount of effort/contribution they had was not enough based on our standards/how much faster we are at getting an A+?
I think our expectations of them plays a huge part of it working out or not. However, I would still not support being in a relationship with a pwBPD who isn't trying  or very abusive. They are already difficult people to be with because of their disorder and them not trying is then what I would truly call an unbalanced and unworkable relationship.

I hope that makes sense.

From the outsider looking in, or from our perspectives perhaps we take on more responsibility than we should but then we chose to as well. We need to question, why we do that and why they are comfortable not making as much effort. What you may find is that the non and BPD actually do meet each others needs but in destructive ways to both of us. We enabled them as much as they enabled us. Have we not tried to stick to our boundaries or healthier dynamics things may or may not have worked with our pwBPD depending on their willingness to also try change and make the relationship work. It's not impossible for relationships with a pwBPD to work however, in order for to it be a true happy coupling both would need to change, and strive to get a lot healthier imo.
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« Reply #45 on: January 16, 2017, 08:55:30 PM »

I found that when I spoke up, and did the right things for myself consequently it made my particular pwBPD in my life want to let go of our relationship altogether and find another 'enabler.'
I have heard of this from YouTube video too that sometimes when you improve and the dynamics change, that gets your partner uncomfortable and worse because they are not used to it.

This is an interesting point.

Funny enough, I have spoken to some pwBPD who say that they are incredibly grateful for their partners and ex-partners who held firm boundaries and called them out (respectfully and calmly, I could imagine) for their infractions. They spoke of how they became their regulators in the end and of what "messes" they would be without their guidance.

Because we are speaking of such a wide spectrum disorder, I think it is (of course) important to also note that there are some individuals with the disorder who will never take responsibility for their actions and therefore will run at the drop of a hat at someone who points out poor behavior and find - as you said - another enabler.

I have truly seen it go both ways though, so generalizing is tricky. One is obviously "better" for the non than the other though, of course! Red flag/bad  (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #46 on: January 16, 2017, 09:14:30 PM »

Would we have been in a romantic relationship with someone with BPD if we were healthy ourselves?

It was humbling for me to realize - after much learning and discussion on  bpdfamily - that my dBPDw and I were really at the same level of emotional maturity when we got together. Our deficits were not the same - mine would not eventually land me in psych wards - but the level was. I was needy, vulnerable, too willing to accept her dysfunction in return for those shining moments when she would put me on that pedestal.

Does it ever work out?  It can. My wife went through DBT, and is much improved, though still very impaired. I've chosen to stay - so living with someone who is emotionally impaired is not something that is being done to me, it's something I've chosen to do. And it always was. That's where owning my role comes in.

We all have to make our own choices Smiling (click to insert in post)
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michel71
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« Reply #47 on: January 16, 2017, 10:34:10 PM »

I was needy, vulnerable, too willing to accept her dysfunction in return for those shining moments when she would put me on that pedestal.




I just thought that if I loved her harder or she felt safe with me or could fully trust me then certain negative behaviors would stop. At the beginning of our relationship I did not know it was "dysfunction". I just thought she was a sensitive woman who has been hurt by others. I knew that I was not going to let her down and I truly felt that she would see this after a while. Of course that never happened. Her behaviors got worse. I was in hell.
Then I started to research and stumbled upon BPD and it all made sense.
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« Reply #48 on: January 16, 2017, 10:36:36 PM »

I didn't finish my post. What I meant to add was that I admit that I was needy and vulnerable and too willing to accept the bad treatment for mere morsels of "white". I have come to realize that I am co-dependent, have weak boundaries resulting from a narcissistic mother that I was always trying to please.
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« Reply #49 on: January 16, 2017, 10:36:46 PM »

Hi all,

I think patientnclear has made a very valid point.

There are partners who try their best to take responsibility for their own behaviour, who behave healthily in their relationship who don't end up with their desired outcome.

It's not helpful to either partner to deny the profound impact of a personality disorder or any mental illness has on a relationship or family. There are huge challenges for everyone involved. Feeling anger at disrespectful or cruel behaviour and grief at the loss of a relationship is normal and healthy.

There are some positive outcomes but both partners need to be willing to do a lot of work and even then there are no guarantees.

We need to be realistic here about the effort, courage and perseverance that's needed for deep change and I'm not just talking about those suffering from personality disorders.

Most of us have an innate resistance to change - it's our default. Change and growth is possible but my own experience of therapy and personal development is that it's a long slog. It's very easy to feel frustrated and hopeless by the time and commitment required.

I don't think that it's helpful to break down blame or responsibility into percentages.

I do think that the 50/50 ratio can be used a little glibly and it does not reflect every relationship. But does it actually make matter whether it's 20/80, 40/60 or 10/9 when ultimately what most of us want or wanted is a positive outcome.

The important thing is taking responsibility for our own part whatever that is or was and learning from it. That does not mean condoning or accepting abusive behaviour or staying in a relationship that's destructive. It does mean owning our own choices and reevaluating some some the beliefs or assumptions that underpinned our own behaviour.

Good thread

Reforming
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