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Skills we were never taught
98
A 3 Minute Lesson
on Ending Conflict
Communication Skills-
Don't Be Invalidating
Listen with Empathy -
A Powerful Life Skill
Setting Boundaries
and Setting Limits
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Author Topic: I believe I have reached my exhaustion point  (Read 500 times)
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« on: January 11, 2017, 06:52:20 AM »

Finally I think I am there at the point where I truly have nothing left for her.  I can no longer shoulder all the blame for every problem of the relationship.  I can't take one more episode of how truthful and loyal she is and how terrible I am when I know it not to be true.  For months I have worked to regain trust and earn forgiveness.  No amount of anything has been enough to buy me more than a week of peace.  Worst part is, the begining of the relationship the part she speaks so highly of, before she broke up with me and I cheated on her (laughs you cant cheat if you aren't in a relationship) before I fell from that pedestal, we never had more than a few weeks of peace.  Any level of stability with the woman is impossible.  She can't stand it, the first time I invalidate a feeling or a thought it would all go to h3ll.  A off hand comment or a slightly insensitive joke... .and she blew up.  She cries and wonders why no one can love her as she is.  Shame she doesn't see how she sabotages everything around her.  I wasn't perfect, but I loved her good.  Despite the things she said to me I never once called her names or said derogatory things to her.  Never laid a hand on her. 
My greatest transgression was keeping the truth of what I did when while we were broken up from her.  She wraps herself in her cloak of truth, she is absolved of any wrong doing because she confessed all of her sins. Doesn't matter that she did what she did while we were together... .no she is perfect and I am scum... .everything that went wrong was my fault.  Doesn't matter that every time we had problems she ran to her ex so he could tell her how wonderful she was and how awful I was... .doesn't matter that every time we had a fight rather than stay and try to talk to me about it she would run away and block me everywhere... .but lets not forget that I am the immature one. So much bad, so much back and forth.  I became a mad so scared to speak his mind, terrified I might upset her.  I have swallowed so much hurt for her.  I know my envolvement with her has taken years off my life... .for a relationship that lasted little more than a year.  I have no idea what kind of wounds she has inflicted... .can't help but wonder how long it will take to heal or if I ever really will?
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« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2017, 10:19:17 AM »

I love her and want to make it work... .but when is enough, enough.
My T told me to stop trying to repair the damage bc there was nothing left to do.
His words were... ."I have seen men do far worse and not nearly as much to try and earn forgiveness and be forgiven".

When do you quit?
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« Reply #2 on: January 11, 2017, 10:32:05 AM »

Sigh I wish I knew when you quit. Only you can know that. But I think for me it was when there was more damage and tears than building toward a future and laughter. Good luck with your decisions.
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« Reply #3 on: January 11, 2017, 10:36:03 AM »

hope

she tells me she cries all the time... .but its all wrapped up in good times too.  I know she loves me and that I love her too... .hard to quit when there is still lots of love on both sides
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« Reply #4 on: January 11, 2017, 10:39:32 AM »

When do you quit?

You quit when you're ready to quit is the short answer.

When the r/s was doing more harm than good and there are no signs of improvement is where my line was.

I'm sure that I could have continued to work with my x to see if we could salvage the r/s, but there were no true signs of improvement. The last week or so of my time with her, she changed her tactics and became nicer to me. That was all surface however.

When I found that she, and her flying monkeys, were stalking the social media accounts of not only me, but also my friends, it became apparent to me that things were not actually improving.

I'm a firm believer in the ability to repair any r/s and make it healthier as long as both parties commit to doing so. My x never committed to that however. One person can get the ball rolling, but it takes both people being on board to make it work. She never got back on board and didn't show any signs that she was ever really going to do so.

I'd be interested in hearing when others decided it was time to quit and What put them over the edge?
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« Reply #5 on: January 11, 2017, 10:46:36 AM »

I know she loves me and that I love her too... .hard to quit when there is still lots of love on both sides

Here's an interesting thought that someone recently shared with me OB

Excerpt
It's easy to love someone, liking them is where it gets hard.

So, there is still love on both sides. Do you like one another though?

To continue with my "when I quit... .what was the final straw" post:

When I found out about the cyber stalking is when I realized that I didn't actually like my x. It was at that moment that it all clicked for me. Sure, I love her. I will forever be convinced that she loves me. But, we didn't like one another.

We constantly found fault in what the other person did. There were never many kind words anymore. We probably like things about each other, but didn't seem to actually like the other person at a level that is needed for romance.
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« Reply #6 on: January 11, 2017, 11:04:11 AM »

I'm not sure where the line exactly is, or when to quit.  I'm married 19 years.  And it has been two years since enlightenment about BPD - and the watershed event that was - it was like getting paroled, no, exonerated.
I learned and made rapid growth. 

I reached a point that now I can't not see some things.  I am now acutely aware of manipulation, projection, blame, alienation, attempts at emotional and verbal abuse.  I see it all over the place in my marriage, and my kids. 

The love is gone, only because it didn't withstand the light of day.

The hope is gone because I have no more power to change the future. 

I think it's time to quit when the reality I see now, and can't deny, and can't hide from anymore, becomes too real, too life size, and too much to pretend that with more time and more effort, and a few more breakthroughs, that things will get better. 
Things have changed forever inside of me.  The outside will change soon.
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« Reply #7 on: January 11, 2017, 11:11:01 AM »

I love her and want to make it work... .

You need a tall glass of cold water. Take this one - toss it on your face.  Smiling (click to insert in post)

The hard question here, is are you strong enough to do this relationship. A relationship with a person with BPD takes an immense amount of strength and self confidence, it takes a emotional intelligence, and it takes a good working knowledge of human behavioral tools.

You are down in the trenches with her - you have to rise above it.

Are you willing to do the work?
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« Reply #8 on: January 11, 2017, 11:25:11 AM »

Skip


I have always believed I was strong enough to be with her, and more than willing to do the work.  The problem is she refuses to acknowledge that I have done anything.  She expects me to wave some magic wand and make her forget about what I did.  The worst part is that we have gotten back to a healthy spot and things seem to go along well then one of her friends will bring something to her attention... .something that may or may not pertain to me or us... .but she assumes that is does and the wheels fall off again.  No matter how long or hard I try, I cant get ahead with her basically because she won't let me.  I have begged, pleaded, asked and worked for forgiveness for months.  And yet at the first sign of trouble all old transgressions are thrown back at me.  I am told I am the worst type of man, and that she deserves better than me.  Must be nice to go through life without admitting fault. 

Again hard to do the work when at the first sign of trouble she runs away rather than stay and talk to me.  Been blocked before without a cross word exchanged, and gotten the you know what you did explanation in a text.  Me... .I have always been willing to do the work... .she has never been willing to simply forgive.
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« Reply #9 on: January 11, 2017, 11:26:58 AM »

Meili

I still like her very much, and if she could let go of what she is holding on to and forgive me I have no doubt we could make it work.  I have said it 1000 times... .I know I did wrong but damn cant a man learn from his mistakes and be allowed a chance at forgiveness
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« Reply #10 on: January 11, 2017, 11:31:02 AM »

And yet at the first sign of trouble all old transgressions are thrown back at me.

Would you mind restating what she says about the transgressions to you. And then separately (another paragraph) what you say to her?
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« Reply #11 on: January 11, 2017, 11:49:53 AM »

I have always believed I was strong enough to be with her, and more than willing to do the work.

I think that the hard that Skip is speaking of is boundary control, listening with empathy, not being invalidating, being the emotionally strong one, working to improve yourself, etc.

I have begged, pleaded, asked and worked for forgiveness for months.

Do you think that this is an example of doing the hard work?
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« Reply #12 on: January 11, 2017, 12:17:11 PM »

Meili

No thats not work... .but being consistent, keeping promises, listening to every word when she was hurt or upset... .and always taking the high road are work in my mind
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« Reply #13 on: January 11, 2017, 12:20:42 PM »

No thats not work... .but being consistent, keeping promises, listening to every word when she was hurt or upset... .and always taking the high road are work in my mind

How has that working out for you?
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« Reply #14 on: January 11, 2017, 12:38:59 PM »

Skip

  well lets see... .ITS NOT

I have asked here, I have asked my T, I have read everything I can find on the subject... .Forgiveness must simply be given.  You cannot make someone forgive you, or will them to, or even earn it if they refuse to just grant it.  I guess my problem is that I have never come across someone that was unwilling to truly forgive even once behavior is altered... .the court system allows for forgiveness... .but not her
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« Reply #15 on: January 11, 2017, 12:42:44 PM »

I have never come across someone that was unwilling to truly forgive even once behavior is altered... .

You mean "once the trust has been broken". Trust is a complicated thing. If a man cheats on his wife, the trust is broken. If he says, "I have cheated in the last 2 months", that is generally not restorative. It may actually be more damaging because it give the appearance that the trust could be so easy earned back. It implies if I violate it again, be good for 2 months, it will again be repaired.

In all that reading, you probably saw that part that says pwBPD (and ADD, and ACOA, and... .) have inherent trust issues - or heightened sensitivity to trust violations. They often have a history of feeling people have violated them. This is probably the #1 reason quoted to our members from the pwBPD as the relationship death blow.

If you are in a "I can't trust you", vs "you need to forgive me because I've now proven I'm trustworthy" debate, you are making matter worse.

This is a complex thing to rehab.

Would you mind restating what she says about the transgressions to you. And then separately (another paragraph) what you say to her?

How about trying this?
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« Reply #16 on: January 11, 2017, 12:48:11 PM »

Forgiveness is not earned, as you state.  It is also not up to you, except that you forgive yourself.  If she can't forgive, that's up to her, and you walk away with your head up.

She's got you under control when she plays up on your guilt.  That guilt is what you can let go for your own freedom.  
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« Reply #17 on: January 11, 2017, 12:54:19 PM »

Skip,

lets see... .I am a spineless weak man who destroyed our relationship with my childish actions.  I am solely to blame for our end, and I care not that I destroyed her in the process, I am a cheater and a liar etc... .you get the point.


I validate how she feels, and then try to talk her down... .eventually I get defensive... .sorry but you can only call a man so many names before he cracks and gets a little defensive. Try to talk about how I have changed etc... .

she comes looking for a fight and eventually she gets one... .if I try and extract myself from the conversation then I am a liar bc I promised her I would allow her to vent when she feels it... .of course that was bc the T recommended it and I would guess he thought it would subside on its own.
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« Reply #18 on: January 11, 2017, 01:00:38 PM »

you get the point.

Respectfully and sincerely I don't. There is a lot of highly emotional "feeling" words there. Be strong. Get us back to baseline.

I'm asking you to tell me, in calm clear terms (she has those days, right) what she feels happened and how she feels about it.  And then do the exact same for yourself - what do you feel happened and how do you feel about it.

We, you, have to see these conflicting narratives as a starting point to help.
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« Reply #19 on: January 11, 2017, 01:08:59 PM »

Skip

sorry its a little raw, had the same argument for the 100th time last night.

I never know how its going to start but as soon as it does she goes from 0-60.  Sometimes its bc I say something that upsets her, sometimes its bc someone has brought something to her attention.

She brings up what I did over the summer.  She broke up with me, and instead of being alone with my feelings after the loss of the woman I love, I choose to take solace in another womans company.  Initially it was just someone to talk to, to vent to.  I became more than that quickly bc she wanted it to and I allowed it. 

My gf gets upset bc she feels I was trying to replace her, and not only that she believes that I did it with someone less than her, a less attractive, lower class woman.  This takes a shot at her pride bc she felt she gave her love to a man who lacks integrity and standards.  It devolves from there and that is when the name calling starts.

I do my best to validate her feelings, but I always fail.  I try to explain I understand how she feels about being replaced, but that was not my intent.  I explain that she really meant nothing to me and that it was not a relationship that we had and that was not what I was seeking.
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« Reply #20 on: January 11, 2017, 02:41:01 PM »

Oncebitten, strong.

Right now you are in emotional dysregulation yourself. Like the intoxicated man who can't walk the white line, you can't clearly lay out two paragraphs - her reasonable narrative and your reasoned narrative. You are so completely focused on your narrative and so dismissive of hers, how can this go anywhere but down hill?  If you need proof, look at the 100 conversations you have had.

If you want to make this better, you have to self sooth and get to baseline.

The narrative you have written above is not her position at all. It doesn't mention the lie (s). Surely that is at the core of this. I don't know what your narrative is but it seems like part it is "I haven't lied in __ weeks" this problem is over. As I said earlier, this is conflict is feeding on itself.

I can't really give you any specific thoughts because you are not being clear on what the opposing positions really are... .so I can only make general comments.

Every time you counter her accusation that she lost trust because you lied with your narrative, you are invalidating her. When she says you behaved badly, let her say her piece and then say you appreciate her sharing and want to think about it and wait for her to shift the conversation or end it. Be ok with that.

Every time she goes into meltdown, stop and listen to her. If she get abusive, ask her to be respectful and you will listen. If she won't ask if you can pick up the conversation the next day.  There is only so many words that can be said about what happened, let her get them out.

Don't swarm her when she dysregulates. Give her space. If she goes silent, let her go silent. Silence is ok. She will self sooth. She will return to baseline. She will call back. That might take a few days... .be ok with it.

Validate the valid and qualify.  If she says you are a liar. Yes, I lied about A & B. I'm ashamed. I understand why this upsets you. If she says you tried to replace her, I did get involved with x just like you got involved with y - its upsets me, I know it upsets you too. If I tried to replace you I'd be with her, right. If she argues, don't counter. If you are speaking the truth she will eventually self sooth and see your point.

You will do better to back off, be OK with ambiguity, take responsibility, know when to retreat, do not give her a bat to beat you with, and give her space to self-sooth and return to baseline.

That's an approximate formula - with more details on the narrative and other members input, you can shape it much better.

You probably want to deal with this almost the opposite of the way are pursuing it. That has a much higher likelihood of success.

It will also help to consider that trust problems with people who have issues sometime can't be resolved. The best you can do right now is to create an environment where she can start working through her deep resentments on this issue.  It's not the surface skirmish that you have that causes the problem, its that they surface skirmishes are triggering the underlying resent of being lied to.

Do you want to see this play out in reverse? Read this members file. Watch how the boyfriend plays it (denying her wound) and how she systematically responds (constructive and first, then bichy, then not constructively, then destructively) and how the relationship falls apart. You are on this path... .get off.
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?action=profile;u=63476
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« Reply #21 on: January 11, 2017, 03:00:58 PM »

skip

you are right... .i am so frustrated to her bc I cant get out of those circular arguments... I try and she just keeps firing all barrels... .we acctually ended up talking today and essentially it came down to the fact that I cant just listen without being defensive... .and she is right
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« Reply #22 on: January 11, 2017, 03:10:08 PM »

For your sake and hers, will you make a commitment to learn the tools and study human behavior so that you can have a chance of making your relationship work. You will only get so many miscues before its unrecoverable. You can't depend on her to be the emotional leader.

Why not take another run at describing the two opposing narratives. Its so much smarter to do these things in times of calm.

I going to move this to improving and ask that you stay there and not board hop when you hit a down time.

 Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #23 on: January 11, 2017, 03:39:51 PM »

Skip

yes I will make the commitment. my fear is that I may have run out of miscues.

I will not board hop... .
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« Reply #24 on: January 11, 2017, 03:43:49 PM »

Skip, yes I will make the commitment. my fear is that I may have run out of miscues. I will not board hop... .

Oncebitten, be strong. The football game isn't over. Don't lose your head. Be cool. That's how champions roll.

Do the narratives. Get this started in the background - don't wait for the next crisis.

Nothing changes without changes. Let's do it.
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« Reply #25 on: January 11, 2017, 06:30:40 PM »

Quote from: SamwizeGamgee link=topic =304230.msg12835837#msg12835837 date=1484154251
I'm married 19 years.  And it has been two years since enlightenment about BPD - and the watershed event that was - it was like getting paroled, no, exonerated.

There is a forum member with the name of "Exonerated." (Interestingly, his screen name before that was "On_Parole." His marital story spans a full 40 years, several U.S. states, and two hemispheres, as he is "down under" now.

"Exonerated" has not been active here for a number of years, but I think he would offer you encouragement, Samwize.

Oncebitten, you listen to Skip!  Smiling (click to insert in post)

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« Reply #26 on: January 11, 2017, 06:38:08 PM »

Katecat


I intend to... .thank you for the support I know skip is right... .I have to get this right on my end or it will never work
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« Reply #27 on: January 11, 2017, 07:42:25 PM »

Once bitten... .I just wanted to reach out to give you some support. I completely understand what you are going through and how difficult it is to use the tools especially when. like you said, the BPD is firing "all barrels". It becomes quite overwhelming when the profanity starts, they don't take a breath, they don't give you time to get a word in edgewise. I have sat for what seems like several life times listening to her, trying to validate her. There are times when I have agreed with her and she argues that I am agreeing with her.

I think Skip is right. Sometimes you just gotta take a break even as much as you want to keep trying to make your point, get the BPD to understand ( yeah good luck with that) where you are coming from. It is important for us to get back to baseline as well.

I signed myself up for a knock down, drag out BPD style "discussion" today. And stuck around ( well, stayed on the phone) far too long. And what did I get? A nice A** whipping, feeling battered and bruised emotionally. Pretty much ruined my day. I am home licking my wounds now and on this Board to get back to baseline.

Stay strong my friend.
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« Reply #28 on: January 11, 2017, 08:47:34 PM »

michel

Hey I am right there with you... .I always stay on too long for the knock down drag outs... .this might sound stupid but always did it bc I thought that was what she wanted... .she pretty much said as much. But she hates thats we never resolve anything when we fight now... .which is true... .it starts, and she attacks... .I do my best to validate, and some times I valudate the invalid... .which makes it worse... .my worda get twisted and used against me... .or if I pause and try to choose my words carefully I get accused of thinking of a lie
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« Reply #29 on: January 11, 2017, 09:14:32 PM »

it starts, and she attacks... .I do my best to validate, and some times I valudate the invalid... .which makes it worse... .my worda get twisted and used against me... .or if I pause and try to choose my words carefully I get accused of thinking of a lie

Once', you know there are article and posts about extinction bursts and impulsivity her - when a person with BPD goes into dysregulation, the best thing is to do is buy time. Time allows for her to self-sooth and return to baseline and since moods are so impulsive, the very thing that bothers her has a good chance of just going away. In a long distance relationship you have many tools to do this. Jumping in with full combat gear is crazy is like throwing gas on a fire.

I know you have little regard for the tools or learning the psychology - but it is your only chance to not get consumed by her ebbs and flows.

Someone posted this earlier. Listen to her discussion of how her moods shift.

Found an informative story of a BPD sufferer done quite well check out the link.
https://youtu.be/TeZn3kLXpyo hope some newbies to leaving board will find this helpful.


Date: Nov-2016Minutes: 33:54

Living With BPD  | Personal vBlog
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« Reply #30 on: January 11, 2017, 09:37:42 PM »

skip


Believe me I know I need these tools and I am using this time apart to learn them.  We are speaking again and I know all to well that it is to easy to jump back into old habits with her.  And I also know that it has to be me to change the dynamic.
Also want you to know I really appreciate your input and advice.
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« Reply #31 on: January 11, 2017, 09:48:15 PM »

Watched the video. This girl is as stunning as her sweater. But seriously she does have some good points to make about having BPD. She owns it though. Many never do. Do you think that is more prevalent in people that have the NPD cross-over?
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« Reply #32 on: January 12, 2017, 06:57:35 AM »

Skip,

I am going to try and type out what our main conflict/fight always is. I will start with her.

She will get sad and I will ask what is wrong?
"I just think about what we have and how much I love you and how I want more.  And then I think about where we should be in this relationship, and it makes me mad bc we arent there.  We should be on vacation together and we should have already done these wonderful things.  I was so looking forward to our trip, that was everything to me.  Amd you took that away from me, you took that from us.  Why did you have to do what you did this summer, why couldn't you just sit and feel all that pain by yourself just like I did (anger is slowly building at this point)... .but no you couldn't do that you had to go and involve yourself with that stupid slut.  You took everything from us, I will never be able to trust you again, you are nothing but a liar and a cheater.  A weak spineless man, why would I want to be with you?  A man who has no standars, one who is ok with associating with trash.  You are spineless and weak nothing more than an impulsive child.  I am better than that, I am better than you and I deserve better than you, I need to go be with people like me and you can go be with the trash that you love.

As she starts to tell me whats bothering her I validate at the begining.
Yes honey I know you want more, I want more too.  I hate that we have so much distance between us and I cant wait for the day when we can be together.  And share a life.   Yes I know how you feel, I too think about what we should have at this point.  I hate that we had to give up our trip, and I know why we did.  I hate that I took that from us... .(I do a lot of listening during this part letting her get her emotions out).  I know I should have handled this summer differently.  Believe me I wish that I had I know how different everything would be if I had.  I know you don't trust me, and I want to continue to work to rebuild that trust.
you are right I have lied to you, but no more... .
(then at some point I get defensive)  I dont love her I never loved her. I dont want her, I never wanted to be with her.  Its you I want and love its you I want a life with. 

this can go on for upwards of an hr, if I suggest we stop and talk later I am a coward.  I get told that if I care then I will be man enough to own what I did and take it. ... .eventually she gets mad declares she cant talk to me and hangs up in a rage... .if I can be calm and wait a few hrs she will calm down... .we have this fight much less now than we used to... .however when we do its just like it happened yesterday.
When something else goes wrong, in life or the r/s this is where we end up.
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« Reply #33 on: January 12, 2017, 09:22:05 AM »

I'm not sure what your goal or desire is in your relationship.  If she's a broken record, the message is the same, the issues are hers.  Why listen?
I don't believe you have an endless obligation to validate and support her for the same thing over and over.  Am I missing something?
It sounds to me like she will keep playing the same record over and over until she gets more of what she wants.  There's no future in that.
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« Reply #34 on: January 12, 2017, 09:38:51 AM »

"I just think about what we have and how much I love you and how I want more.  And then I think... .// ... .you are a man who has no standards, one who is ok with associating with trash.  You are spineless and weak nothing more than an impulsive child.  I am better than that, I am better than you and I deserve better than you, I need to go be with people like me and you can go be with the trash that you love.

There is a deep wound and a lot of resentment over what happened and the way she found out. I suspect, when you boil all of the emotion out of this, it is the lie (s) that is at the center of this. It is where I would focus my efforts to rehabilitate this.

From reading what she wrote it looks like the way she is trying to process resentment and hurt is to beat you down. She wants you to live her pain. This beat down is relieving some of the hurt she feels by putting it on you. Dysfunctional. Yes. But it works for her.

The problem is that while she gets some immediate relief from the beatdown, it opens the door all kinds of boundaries busting and she is losing respect for you each time you accept this. If you don't value you, there must be something wrong with you.

You keep trying to solve it as if it is puzzle and there are words that will solve it. She doesn't want to solve it, she wants to relieve her pain.

The focused question becomes, how do you rehabilitate the lies in a healthy way and how does she resolve her natural "BPD"  internal mood swings which now land on the trust issue as a target and she then seeks to beat you down to feel better?

Every one of the beat downs is like a cancer. It instilling a bad relationship dynamic between the two of you. Its harmful to you - both in how you see yourself and how she sees you.
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« Reply #35 on: January 12, 2017, 11:58:37 AM »

I think Skip makes a good point about how she is reliving the trauma of the situation and projecting that pain on to you.

I think we do have some grief when what we hoped for didn't happen in a relationship. I've experienced this end of the forgiveness issues over my H painting me black after we first got married. I imagined that we'd have this wonderful newlywed foundation instead of what felt like a nightmare. Over time, this disappointment has dissipated, but I did bring it up - I wanted my H to hear how it felt on my part. It wasn't a right/wrong thing, but I needed him somehow to understand how I felt. He on the other hand, wanted me to forgive, forget and move on faster than it took me to achieve that. This was a battle of "should have would have"- he shouldn't have done that. I should just get over it. But "should have would have" isn't a solution"- just an expectation to be different than we were, which isn't accepting who we are. Neither "should" considered the people that we are- me being someone who needed to work it out my way. Him not wanting to be subjected to that.

If this happened last summer, then it is still emotionally fresh for her. This grief may be cyclic. Instead of expecting it to go away, you might want to consider that it will cycle and the cycles may get less frequent. Can you stay calm and centered when she does- and not defend yourself- while also not becoming a whipping post and being disrespected?

On one hand, she needs to process this and hopefully move on, but it is possible that she may not be able to- at least to the point where it isn't being brought up constantly. You can't really control how she does this or if she can. You also have a choice in this. How long do you want to be put in this situation on the basis of this incident? It may take a long time, but how long you wish to be working on this is up to you.

I don't think you can go wrong by learning the tools and gaining relationship skills- these will help your no matter what- with her, without her. I agree with Skip that to give this a chance, you need to not go back and forth about committing. It may come to a time where you feel you have done all you can, or she decides she can't get over this, or things improve for both of you, but for now, since you are still invested in the relationship- learning the lessons, the tools, working on resolution- when she cycles into this, can some healing occur even if she isn't ready to forgive- seems like a good direction.

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« Reply #36 on: January 12, 2017, 01:26:53 PM »

I went through this with my x too. She wouldn't forgive what she perceived to be cheating and lies. Many of the conversations during our four-month break-up centered on the subject.

I finally accepted that she will forever believe that I cheated on her and lied to her. There is absolutely nothing that I can about that. What I also realized was that the more I engaged with her on the matter, the worse things got for me. When I stopped engaging, she all but stopped bringing it up to me. Things got better. She started to forgive. Then I made a bad choice and talked to the ow again and it all came back with a vengeance.

I learned that what was actually going on was that my x thought that I chose the ow over her. It never was about what I did, it was about how my x felt. She couldn't forgive me because there was really nothing for her to forgive and doing so would likely have forced her to acknowledge her own faults. We all know how well that goes for a dysregulated pwBPD.

I can't say that this is what is happening in your world, but the similarities between our experiences borders on scary, soo... .

I want to caution you though; trying to fix it may cause you more harm. By trying to tell her that she's always been your choice, you would be telling her that she's wrong. The cycle repeats.

It's best to try to validate how she feels (validate the valid) and not what she perceives that you've done (don't validate the invalid). Makes sense?
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« Reply #37 on: January 12, 2017, 01:50:40 PM »

My wife still judges me and tries to use it as punishment by not forgiving me for my past behavior with another girlfriend - from two years _before_ I met my wife.  So, for the record, there are no rational boundaries to a disordered person's manipulation.
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« Reply #38 on: January 12, 2017, 02:05:37 PM »

My wife still judges me and tries to use it as punishment by not forgiving me for my past behavior with another girlfriend - from two years _before_ I met my wife.  So, for the record, there are no rational boundaries to a disordered person's manipulation.

Taking it out of generalities - there were compound lies in this case. There is a reason for the resentment and it would be a serious problem in many relationships. We have to be careful not to bury life issues under the BPD blanket.

It would seem to me that the BPD dysfunction is centered around the effort of projecting her emotional hurt on to her partner. That is the unhealthy part.
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« Reply #39 on: January 12, 2017, 04:19:09 PM »

Skip

I agree with you completely it is a very deep wound(yes the lie bothers her more than the act). And I know she wants me to feel that with her.  I understand that, and this issue is a cancer that continues to eat at US... .it eats at my patience and hers.  It has gotten to the point where she questions how much she likes me anymore.  But what do I do about her constantly wanting to relive the pain?  I can validate till the cows come home but once she starts its tough to get out of that loop with her.  when  she just mentions it bc she is upset with me, i.e. go call her dont bother me with it... .is it best to just ignore those off hand comments?

Notwendy

you are right, she sees me as the trigger of her pain, and so she wants to project it all back on me.  The cycles are getting far less frequent.  When she brings it up that we shouldn't still be fighting over it I agree, I remind her that we have that fight far less frequently, and that we are in fact getting better.  Too which she usually says if you had been a man we would never have this talk. Its tough to let her work through this without her, not defend myself.  I have no problem validating her concerns of trust, or admitting my faults from the summer.  But once she starts in with name calling it gets tough.  Its not so much that the names really hurt my feelings bc they dont but its tough to let her feel and not be a doormat at the same time.  I am committed... .she is the one up in the air.  But I know that never again with her is not a definitive.  she keeps pushing for less of a commitment, which I can back up a bit with her and slow down.

 But this was the last we talked about it... .her"how about we just be really casual about us? no labels no commitments, just a fwb type thing".  I hesitantly said ok, what all would that entail?  she continued, you do you and I will do me.  I paused and said we can try it but thats not what I want.  (Keep in mind I am trying to feel her out here, she knows I want a commitment, and I thought she did too, so is this a test or would removing the label alone make her feel better... .which if thats all it is fine.)  She said what do you want, I want to be with you... .why would you want to be with someone who is free to mess around with others? 
To which I said I DONT.

Her questions are always loaded... .she knows how I feel.  I know others have said if she doesnt want a label then give her that... .which again fine... .but I refuse to have that used against me later.  Perhaps I am all wrong in this but I would rather stand by what I want, and loose her.  Than appear whishy washy over what I want and loose her bc she feels I am not serious about us.



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« Reply #40 on: January 12, 2017, 04:23:30 PM »

Meili

I completely agree with you... .and thats what makes all of this so hard.  You are right this is all about her feelings... .and that is her belief I chose the OW over her... .which I didnt.  She gets upset with me bc I havent fixed anything, but I have in fact have.  There is nothing left for me to do... .she has to come to terms with what is going on inside her own mind... .I dont know if she can.   Not sure if this is a situation where time apart would heal it or not... .I have suggested that.  She counters with time apart will only allow her to detach from me and move on.  Keeping me in this limbo which she claims to hate...
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« Reply #41 on: January 12, 2017, 04:38:12 PM »

Skip

Yes I agree that our problems are not centered around the condition.  In fact I know they would cause problems in any relationship.  Whether you define what I did as cheating or not it would in fact hurt any woman.  The ISSUE is the way she chooses to process her hurt doesnt allow me much room to help or fix.  Like I said in my reply to NW... its hard too allow her feel the pain and feel that with her while being called everything under the sun.  I got no problem with feeling it with her... .in fact I have encouraged her to bring this to me when she feels like this... .and honestly the name calling doesnt bother me but it is a huge violation of boundaries and yes I believe it makes her think less of me.  If calling me names makes her feel better and doesn't make her think less of me I don't give a **** I got thick skin.  But I dont want to become those things in her eyes. 
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« Reply #42 on: January 12, 2017, 07:25:20 PM »

and honestly the name calling doesnt bother me but it is a huge violation of boundaries

If she's ignoring your boundaries, and you are letting that happen, that's on you and not her. Well, it's on both you because she shouldn't do it, but you can't control her or what she does, only what you do, so let's focus on what you do and you can control.

Why do you allow her to violate your boundaries?
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« Reply #43 on: January 12, 2017, 07:57:03 PM »

A boundary is a "rule" for you, not her.

An example might be "I won't spend time with someone who is calling me names." Or "I will take a break from communication with someone who is calling me names."

"You can't call me names" is not a boundary, because clearly she can. Boundaries are actually enforceable, because they are rules for yourself.
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« Reply #44 on: January 13, 2017, 05:38:42 AM »

If you want to proceed with this relationship- then there needs to be some way to productively discuss the issues that are repeatedly being brought up. Avoiding them and then trying to deal with them when she is upset and dysregutating isn't working- because when one is upset, they are not processing. When she is upset, the conversation deteriorates into name calling.

Setting the boundary to not engage in this is a good one, but that leaves a blank- the issue doesn't get discussed. So, this episode is likely to repeat itself. Saying " I will not have this kind of discussion" is fine, but the question is then- when and how to resolve this.

I found counseling to be helpful with this kind of thing- because trying to bring up any issues was triggering, led to both of us feeling defensive, circular arguments and no resolution. If my H got angry at me, all that accomplished was for me to not bring things up. But this isn't a good way to solve issues between people. A counselor served as a referee- kept the conversation on track, kept it from deteriorating to insults.

Feeling like infidelity occurred, or that you were not truthful about things is emotionally tough- for anyone- not just pw BPD. It may be that neither of you has the skills to talk about this without getting upset about it. What the two of you are doing is not working- if it did, it would work. Maybe being pro-active and setting up a way to discuss this when both of you are not upset might work.

It seems that you want this relationship no matter what, even if you will be dealing with this for the long run. Maybe take the bull by the horns- with boundaries. When she isn't upset, sit down and say " we keep having this conversation, and I understand that you are very upset about this issue. I would like to try something different to see if we can do better. Would you be willing to go to counseling with me to discuss this? Maybe a counselor can help me understand this better" ( note the emphasis on "me".

Now she may react, call you names. The boundary can be " I don't wish to have this discussion this way, but I care about understanding how you feel and would like to discuss this another way" and then disengage.

What I am thinking is that just setting a boundary on the circular discussion doesn't offer her a solution. Saying this isn't working but can we seek out something that may work-indicates that you wish to work on this but a different way.


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« Reply #45 on: January 13, 2017, 07:03:16 AM »

NW

I have suggested counseling and was told no, I created this issue, why should she go to counseling.
We talked yesterday and this topic was brought up again, I used some of the techniques (as best I could) and while she still hung up angry the conversation did not escalate to the point of no return like it usually does. 

I let her vent did my best to listen with empathy, validated her feelings when they had a real basis and stayed silent when they were completely invalid statements.  I didn't get angry or defensive ... .I essentially let her have her tantrum and wear herself out like you do a small child... .checked in a couple hrs later and she acted as if nothing had happened.   Typically that talk/fight would take 30 + mins and she wouldn't talk to me for 24 hrs... .this lasted maybe 10 mins and we spoke 2 hrs later.
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« Reply #46 on: January 13, 2017, 08:02:43 AM »

Typically that talk/fight would take 30 + mins and she wouldn't talk to me for 24 hrs... .this lasted maybe 10 mins and we spoke 2 hrs later.

The tools will help you both.

 Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)

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« Reply #47 on: January 13, 2017, 08:16:49 AM »

Skip

thank you... .I know they will help and they did... .Just a couple of things kept the fight from escalating.

Did I do the right thing by simply ignoring the completely wrong and baseless statements?
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« Reply #48 on: January 13, 2017, 08:34:04 AM »

Did I do the right thing by simply ignoring the completely wrong and baseless statements?

Have you corrected them before?

Where any of them violating to you (spineless, trash, etc,)?
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« Reply #49 on: January 13, 2017, 09:04:38 AM »

I have corrected those statements that are violating to me, such as the name calling, doesn't always go well but I feel like I have the right to defend myself against slanderous comments even if she is hurting. Yesterday was a sticks and stones approach... .again did multiple things at once, stayed calm, didnt validate the invalid, listened with lots of empathy... .so hard to say what worked or if it was just all of the above.

My question was in regards to being accused of things I didnt do... .ie fooling around with this other woman who I do not even know.  In the past I would say i dont even know her and I dont know what you are talking about... .which in hindsight seems like JADEing... .yesterday I simply ignored those comments all together and she didn't fixate on them.
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« Reply #50 on: January 13, 2017, 09:48:54 AM »

My question was in regards to being accused of things I didnt do... .ie fooling around with this other woman who I do not even know.  In the past I would say i dont even know her... .

You have told her over and over, she heard it, be confident in that. Beside, there is little point in debating when she in "drive"... .she can't listen in that mode, you just prolong and fuel the "drive". Being quiet is not ignoring, it will be perceived as listening. Don't validate the invalid - just give her signals that you are listening. She will eventually talk herself out on all of this.

She may bait you. Don't take the bait.

To me, I would tell her in times of calm that the spineless comments are inappropriate and you would like to not go there. Then, next time she does, politely exit the call. She won't like it and will try to punish you for it. Just wait her out. She'll get the message.

Be strong. Once you get this on a more stable place, you will be better able to evaluate the relationship and your compatibility with her. Bottom line, if you can get past destructive fighting, your relationship is not going to survive.

Three tools that will help:
Listen with Empathy
Drama Triangle
Values/boundaries
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« Reply #51 on: January 13, 2017, 10:35:31 AM »

Staff only

This thread has reached its post limit, and is now locked. Please feel free to continue the discussion in a new thread.
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