Mediation - round 2

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

Background: 17 year marriage to uBPDw; S5, S11; early process of collaborative divorce

Had second session with divorce coach. Feeling very agitated but that seems to be the natural feeling after the stress of the meetings.

Positives:
1. We agreed to a very initial custody schedule so that we can start nesting on February 1 - 6 days (me); 8 days (her); fairly balanced. I was surprised she proposed I get every other Thurs - Sunday as well as every Fri - Saturday. I thought she would want time with kids through whole weekend, but I actually have no idea what is running through her head. Duh - she actually wants less engaged time with the kids, which is what my sense has been for years. Maybe I was surprised she actually admitted it.
2. She showed receptivity to letting go of the house.
3. Divorce coach gave us a reasonable tool for limiting to written communication before and after nesting starts.
4. Divorce coach advised wife that agreeing on kids' chores and discipline is not part of parent plan nor will it be written in one. In a perfect world, we can try to be consistent with certain things, but likely this will never happen as there is only one way in my wife's world, and that is her way.

Negatives:
1. She talked about moving out of the area! That's definitely going to be a topic during meet with attorneys next week. Would appreciate advice/experience on how to block STBxw from moving kids from their lives/wrangling custody by geographic change. Not sure she is planning that, but as I said previously, I have no idea what runs through her brain. That will push me into litigation right away if she tries that.
2. Still no financial plan for two households although being open to sale of the house would ease a lot of burden.
3. Not sure this is a negative yet, but she is not receptive to sharing a room rental during nesting. I actually feel similarly - I don't want to do anything more than necessary with her, but this may be a financially necessary step. I guess, if she doesn't agree, I will just have to take steps to get my own place and pull money from our existing money to do so and let chips fall where they may.
4. Freaking divorce coach again asks, "So have you found an interim place to live? I reminded her forcefully that we both need to find an interim place to live, and yes, I have. Turns out my wife is using the just going to wing it plan. At least the coach suggested that would not work for the months that we may be doing this.
5. Wife actually described S5's response to letting them know that mom and dad are divorcing was his way of helping her through. Wife was "open" and allowed his wild, loud out of control laughing, playing, rolling around the floor as an understanding that he "knew" what was going on all along and was just relieved. Divorce coach and I were more inclined to think that it was a stress reaction that was processed in the methods a 5 year old could use. My wife actually said she could see how difficult a time I was having breaking through their bubble of "relief/happiness" and related it to her difficulty in talking to me and the boys when we are enjoying doing an activity or playing a game together. Sickens me. I was actually watching S5 having what looked like an extreme stress response and not letting anyone speak any further because that's all he could do in that moment. Poor guy. And yet, somehow, it became about my problem versus something really tough for our children. If there was a way to just not hear that crap and stick to the business of how to move forward.

[takingandsending]

Background: 17 year marriage to uBPDw; S5, S11; early process of collaborative divorce

Had second session with divorce coach. Feeling very agitated but that seems to be the natural feeling after the stress of the meetings.

Positives:
1. We agreed to a very initial custody schedule so that we can start nesting on February 1 - 6 days (me); 8 days (her); fairly balanced. I was surprised she proposed I get every other Thurs - Sunday as well as every Fri - Saturday. I thought she would want time with kids through whole weekend, but I actually have no idea what is running through her head. Duh - she actually wants less engaged time with the kids, which is what my sense has been for years. Maybe I was surprised she actually admitted it.
2. She showed receptivity to letting go of the house.
3. Divorce coach gave us a reasonable tool for limiting to written communication before and after nesting starts.
4. Divorce coach advised wife that agreeing on kids' chores and discipline is not part of parent plan nor will it be written in one. In a perfect world, we can try to be consistent with certain things, but likely this will never happen as there is only one way in my wife's world, and that is her way.

Negatives:
1. She talked about moving out of the area! That's definitely going to be a topic during meet with attorneys next week. Would appreciate advice/experience on how to block STBxw from moving kids from their lives/wrangling custody by geographic change. Not sure she is planning that, but as I said previously, I have no idea what runs through her brain. That will push me into litigation right away if she tries that.
2. Still no financial plan for two households although being open to sale of the house would ease a lot of burden.
3. Not sure this is a negative yet, but she is not receptive to sharing a room rental during nesting. I actually feel similarly - I don't want to do anything more than necessary with her, but this may be a financially necessary step. I guess, if she doesn't agree, I will just have to take steps to get my own place and pull money from our existing money to do so and let chips fall where they may.
4. Freaking divorce coach again asks, "So have you found an interim place to live? I reminded her forcefully that we both need to find an interim place to live, and yes, I have. Turns out my wife is using the just going to wing it plan. At least the coach suggested that would not work for the months that we may be doing this.
5. Wife actually described S5's response to letting them know that mom and dad are divorcing was his way of helping her through. Wife was "open" and allowed his wild, loud out of control laughing, playing, rolling around the floor as an understanding that he "knew" what was going on all along and was just relieved. Divorce coach and I were more inclined to think that it was a stress reaction that was processed in the methods a 5 year old could use. My wife actually said she could see how difficult a time I was having breaking through their bubble of "relief/happiness" and related it to her difficulty in talking to me and the boys when we are enjoying doing an activity or playing a game together. Sickens me. I was actually watching S5 having what looked like an extreme stress response and not letting anyone speak any further because that's all he could do in that moment. Poor guy. And yet, somehow, it became about my problem versus something really tough for our children. If there was a way to just not hear that crap and stick to the business of how to move forward.

[livednlearned]

Hi talkingandsending,

Your son  Will you try to get him into counseling as part of the divorce? I wish I had started my son as early as possible. 5 is not too early.

It sounds like you are hopeful that things will progress in a realistic, reasonable way. My experience is that divorce behaviors seems to mirror marriage behaviors, except we pay lawyers to have front-row seats.  

If you can get a favorable custody arrangement with the kids spending more time with you, that is great. Altho, if she is serious about leaving the area and you end these negotiations in order to litigate over that matter, does that mean the custody arrangements have to be revisited?

In my state, to relocate, a parent's plan to move is based on 9 criteria (nature of their work, employment opportunities there, employment in the immediate area, whether there are family members in the new area, what the school system is like, etc.)

If your wife were in my state and had plans to move, she would have a hard time getting a favorable custody agreement if she didn't meet the criteria. She would be able to move, but the court would try to keep as much status quo in the kids' lives as possible. So, if BPD mom insisted on moving for reasons that did not meet court criteria, she would likely have to settle for a custody arrangement in which she has to do much of the traveling to see the kids.

Courts tend to favor keeping status quo for kids, especially so soon after divorce. It's already a big upheaval in their lives.

People get emotional and do emotional things during divorce, and the courts know that. You don't have to be BPD to get a bit crazy during divorce, and family law court is aware of that. So there are usually some checks in place to prevent people from acting impulsively without consequence.

That's in a perfect world, of course. If she makes false allegations or does something to throw the game pieces off the table, you could find yourself on the defensive, trying to get some leverage back.

What would be the best scenario to come out of this collaborative divorce process, for custody and otherwise?

[takingandsending]

Thanks lnl.
Yes. S11 already sees child T. Planning on seeing if she can see S5 too. Think wife will agree.

Thanks for the advice on criteria to relocate. Is that typically for move out of state or within state even (distance based)? I will ask my L about my state's criteria.

[livednlearned]

I'm not sure if the criteria apply equally to in and out-of-state.

My ex was at risk of losing his job a year or so into our custody battle and we spent a bit of time on the (relatively) local relocation issue (potential 4 hour drive). Criteria did not come up, although it sorta felt like it was hovering in the air. My lawyer loosely made reference, although maybe there is some loosely understood principle that applies to relocation in general. Meaning, a parent should only be moving if it is super pressing and important, given that the kids need both parents after something as disruptive as divorce, and most parents know that.

If I were in your position, I might develop a schedule for Facetime/Skype calls in which your ex is to initiate the calls. Don't offer too much in the way of holiday time with her, or delivering the kids to her. Offer the court a solution in which your ex is responsible for maintaining the relationship. Maybe even try to arrange some kind of graduated schedule where in year 1 and 2, it she comes to visit them in their town for the holidays, especially if she moves somewhere with no ties to relatives or whatnot, or a place where the kids have nothing to keep them occupied for the holidays.

You don't want to come across as difficult, you want to point out that the goal is to uproot the kids as little as possible.

I know it's not ideal, having to explain to the kids why (if it happens) mom isn't keeping promises to call or visit them, but it is preferable to dealing with a loss of custody, alienation and/or neglect, not to mention trickle-down mental illness issues from spending too much time with their mom.

It's a really sad illness  

Very devastating for our kids.

[takingandsending]

Lnl,

My wife is self employed, so I don't think relocation for job security is a defensible position. Her business is client based, so she could argue for a higher population urban area, one is located out of country 1 hour away or the other located 2 hours away within country. After that, not really many options within state.

Really, the best lead I have into her thinking is that she consistently has stated a desire to live in a warmer winter climate with more sun, which would not be within state. The only place I have heard her definitively state is Maui, which is really cost prohibitive and far, but that never stops the illogic train. Still, she talks about a lot of things, but actually following through is not her strength.

Really, it is a crummy situation for her. She is middle aged, facing divorce, and hasn't worked in a long while. All of her really expensive classes and book writing and self-help/healing stuff is no longer going to be funded. And she has two children. I wish it didn't have to be like this, but the boys really deserve to have some time away from dysfunction and mental illness. And I do, too.

But, as others have said here, I can't be guilted for doing what I know is the right thing for our family, even if it isn't the best thing for my wife. Just feels hard, today. Tomorrow will be a better day.

[livednlearned]

I understand.

It can feel like putting a child out on the street  

We try to protect them from what cannot be avoided, which is themselves.

I no longer see it as a cruel thing to have good boundaries.

It is an act of love, for them and for us, to let them experience natural consequences of their choices.

It feels deeply fulfilling to work through a difficult problem, and who are we to constantly take from them that satisfaction. They may not have the same capacity we do for problem-solving, but they have the same capacity to choose to get better.

Maybe this catalyzes her to seek help, once and for all.



 

[takingandsending]

Hi lnl,

Of course, you are right. It is not cruelty to have good boundaries. My wiring from the family I grew up in is to see it as cruelty. It's funny after all these years of working on it, this view is still my Achilles' heal. I try to follow the buddhist tenet, "First, do no harm." But unfortunately, I don't always have the clarity to see what is harmful and what is not.

It feels to me like the divorce process has to be defensive, protective and adversarial by nature, which doesn't align with my core values. I need to keep changing those words to protecting my sons, defending my sons, opposing harm to my sons.

Thought I was through with grief over this RS. Welcome back. I know there is a day in the future where I will just know that I did what I had to do. Not heroic, not grand - I just did what was necessary. Not quite there, yet.

[livednlearned]

It's a process to see boundaries as a form of compassion.

It may help to think of compassion for yourself, first.

Boundaries provide safety, which is necessary for many other healing states to emerge. That is as true for us as it is for people with BPD.

Your wife does not experience boundaries in her sense of self, a very scary way to go through life. She needs others to have boundaries in order to feel the edges of who she is, what she can and cannot do.

One day, maybe she will grow tired of it all and do the hard work. If she experiences a world without boundaries, she will remain lost.