I'm ready to learn the tools - II

[Oncebitten]

The tools are helping with the fighting but now we have taken a step backwards where she says she doesn't trust me and she doesn't want to and shouldn't have to do the work on her end to feel she can trust  me again.  The r/s is over in her mind she says.  However the minute I stop engaging her she reaches out.  If she doesn't want the r/s and doesn't want to try and she knows thats all I want why does she keep coming back around?

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Lockjaw]

She fears abandonment.

[Oncebitten]

so she will keep engaing me even though she doesn't want me so she doesn't have to face that fear?


Trust is the core issue... .how do you build trust with someone who doesn't want to do the work so you cab regain it?

[Meili]

so she will keep engaing me even though she doesn't want me so she doesn't have to face that fear?

Yes, she very well may be acting out of the fear of abandonment, or it could be something else. We cannot know what is going through her mind. It's wasted time and energy to dwell on it.

Trust is the core issue... .how do you build trust with someone who doesn't want to do the work so you cab regain it?

I don't mean to be dense here, but what work would you like her to do?

I don't think that anyone should have to "work" at building trust for another person. Trust, especially once damaged or destroyed, is something that is built/rebuilt over time. You shouldn't expect her to do it how you'd do it or on your timeline... .as frustrating as that is.

[Oncebitten]

well each time she re-engages its the same thing... .the r/s doesn't work... .well maybe it can I still love you... .nope it doesn't work.

I just want her to give me a chance.  I know it takes time and I am willing to put in the time.  Just dont know what to do with the back and forth bc of lack of trust.

[Meili]

Just curious, have you read and TAKEN THE PLEDGE?

[Oncebitten]

I have and I accept my part in all of this.  I know that many of our fights that while I did not start them, my actions and they way I behaved did in fact perpetuate them.  I realize that its up to me to improve our situation.  She can't do it alone.

[Skip]

If she doesn't want the r/s and doesn't want to try and she knows thats all I want why does she keep coming back around?

Oncebitten, be strong. Don't get caught up in the drama.

1. She is contacting you when you back away. Read that as she is not finished.
2. She pulls away when you tell her she has to do the work to fix the broken trust. Read that as stop invalidating her and trying to get her to excuse your behavior, it is driving he awary.

You have an huge survey sample to prove this.

If she says you are done, you can't be boyfriend or girlfriend, tell her, very respectfully, I can understand why you feel that way and I respect you.  :)on't pout, be positive, upbeat, no gloating, and do no sealing the deal with any pronouncements like - now we're friends - I'm going no contact - I'm going to date Taylor Swift  - now we are buddies. Just, I understand and respect you and leave everything totally ambiguous. And then let it rest. "Give her what she wants because her needs come before yours."

Wait. (And don't contact any other girls at this time, but get active in something new - join a bike clubs or something)

When she contacts you, be friendly, nice, don't bring up the topic... .just go with the flow. If she reminds you that it is over, just be casual about it "yeah I know".

Why?

You have to stop invalidating her by telling her she is thinking wrong, acting wrong, has it wrong, and trying to control her feelings, etc.  That's how she feels.

I know that you think are are validating her, but you are not - you are just telling her what she wants to hear and she sees through it.

This will give her space to process things. This will also give you an opportunity to be "trustworthy" - just don't sell it, do it. Don't contact any girls.

She will process this in a day or a week or maybe 2-3 weeks, and you will know where this stands.  

You stand a far better chance of reviving this relationship by doing this than by invalidating her by telling her she is thinking wrong, acting wrong, has it wrong, and trying to control her feelings, and demand forgiveness, etc.

But it will take strength and self confidence.

Tools.

[Meili]

I know that many of our fights that while I did not start them, my actions and they way I behaved did in fact perpetuate them. 

 

I'm confused by the quoted sentence. Do you mean that from your perspective you don't start fights, or are you stating as a fact that you don't?

The reason that I phrased it that was is because I was positive that I didn't start fights with my x. She was the one who always brought up the subjects, went into a rage, etc.

What I later discovered is that by invalidating her, from her perspective, I was the one who was starting the fights.

It wasn't until I took a good, hard look at what I was saying and showing her that I understood. I always looked at it as her making something out of nothing. Because, to me, it was nothing. To her, it was very hurtful, a rejection, and important. Anything that resembled invalidation and/or negativity to her met with this response.

Is it possible that something similar is going on in your situation?

[Oncebitten]

Meili

thats one way of looking at it, she brings something up, I am invalidating... .we have fight... .So I guess you could say I started it or as I said at least perpetuated it

[Skip]

thats one way of looking at it, she brings something up, I am invalidating... .we have fight... .So I guess you could say I started it or as I said at least perpetuated it

It's helpful to see that. You can work on it, now.

We all do this, naturally. We invalidate people all the time. It would be better if we didn't and those that learn not to, are appreciated.

I these relationships, the other person has a very highly sensitive detector. So it takes more. And they over-react, and we have to learn how to not ebb and flow with their emotions, or it becomes total chaos. It's not easy.

It's the nature of the beast.
It means that the action/outcome of a person/thing/situation (the beast) should have been expected as it is an essential part of its being (its nature). The connotation of the phrase is usually negative; the beast's nature is generally not pleasant.

[livednlearned]

With some BPD sufferers, straight up emotional distance is what triggers the fight.

Being too quiet can be a trigger.
Feeling tired.
Going to bed early.
Choosing to sit in that chair instead of this one.

She may be saying in a hundred different ways that you are emotionally distant. The one that really landed and stirred the pot is the lie/infidelity -- kaching! Now you're paying attention. Except it's emotional reactivity instead of emotional closeness, so the loop never closes.

[Meili]

What happens when you don't invalidate and don't engage in the fight?

I think that in the past, you told me that she has an Extinction Burst. Is that correct?

If so, can you tell us how that plays out? We may be able to help you with that if necessary.

[Oncebitten]

Meili

yes she is prone to an extinction burst.

Lately I have been stepping away from her and the conversation when she gets depressed/quiet.

I the past I would try to soothe the depression, which led to anger then rage.I have found that the depression eases within hours where the anger can last days... .the depression/sad state is usually a product of our circumstances, so she seems to get over it and deal with it better.  The anger is a product of directing all unmanaged emotions at me.

[Oncebitten]

LNL

Yes really anything outside of our normal routine can be a trigger, less time for her than normal due to work... .me being quiet bc I am tired or dealing with ny own bout of depression bc of our circumstances... .me being unusually happy, can be a trigger she assumes I am up to something.  Thankfully I am a fairly even tempered person, which while at times she complains I am not passionate enough she knows my calm demeanor is beneficial to the r/s

[Oncebitten]

I feel that I am starting to use the tools and they are helping. We seem to get through those talks  now that would lead to a huge fight where she blocks me and doesn't talk to me for days.  Luckily that hasnt happened for quite some time.  While that has seemingly improved greatly, I still struggle as what to do when she pushes me away from what I assume are her fears of engulfment.  Yesterday we were talking, everything was great as it had been for days. Then something caused her to ask a question, as soon as she asked I knew where it would lead.  I had done nothing wrong but I knew telling the truth would be a trigger, I told her the truth anyways.  She got very quiet and essentially stopped talking.  I asked what was wrong, she said she would just talk to me later.  I simply said ok and stepped back.  She told me to call later.  I did and she was cold when I called, thoughts of my past transgressions had come flooding back, eventually she finally said, what I knew was on her mind. We talked, for a bit and she told me how we needed to step back, everything was too much... .we had made plans to take a trip together, now canceled.  It's just upsetting, I feel like we take 2 steps forward, make plans, serious commitments to one another... .and then she pulls it all apart, blaming me of course.  Its always something I did.

What do I do when she gets like that, how do I handle her pulling back and tearing apart plans that we had made together?

[Meili]

I think that you should recognize her emotional state and allow her to pull back so as to go back to neutral. Chasing her would probably intensify her feelings of engulfment. Running the other direction would trigger abandonment.

From what you've told us, it looks like she has a lot of trust issues. In her mind, you have destroyed what little trust that she had to begin with. There is no quick fix to that. You have to slowly rebuild the trust, and it has to be at her pace.

[Oncebitten]

So I should just be patient?  Allow her to make plans with me then cancel?  She has essentially done this since we began.  Loves me more than anything, can't get enough of me, something happens, it all goes to pot.  Then she goes cold, withholds I love you's.  Backs away, I know if I chase she gets angry, if I don't pursue in some fashion then I am accused of spending my time with someone else.  I am in this terrible catch 22, I know I have destroyed her trust in me, although I believe I have regained some. 

I guess its just a matter of riding it all out?  Going with the flow? 

Worst part is when I do that eventually I get accosted for simply going with the flow, never relaying my needs or wants.  Bc as she will tell me it can't be all about her. Until it is remotely about me then I am selfish.

Sorry for the pitty party, just depressed this morning, had our trip all planned and booked... .now its off. 

Do I dare allow her to know that I am depressed right now... .or just try and be my normal self.

[Meili]

I don't see it as a pity party at all. It sounds incredibly hard and frustrating! I can understand the need to vent. I lived through a lot of that also.

So I should just be patient? ... ./... .I guess its just a matter of riding it all out?  Going with the flow? 

What else can you do?

Allow her to make plans with me then cancel?

I'm not sure this is the best thing. It will teach her that is an acceptable way to treat you. You should probably, when she emotionally neutral, use the communication tools and let her know how you feel about her canceling plans. Don't be blunt or curt about it though as that will most assuredly trigger her. But, with a well thought out way to address it, you can minimize that likelihood. Which communication tool do you think that you should use? Why don't you try writing it out here first to get feedback?

The same goes for how you are feeling. You are just as important in this as she is. Your feelings matter just as much as hers. She needs to know, but it needs to be handled in a way that does not come across as an accusation to her. It is one of those situations where "you statements" will cause a great deal of harm. Timing is also important. Maybe something like, "I'm sad about our plans getting cancelled."? Notice that there was nothing in that statement about how she makes you feel? Or, that she did anything wrong? It's all about you and how you feel.

I wouldn't expect an apology, much in the way of validation, or for her to try to make it right; but, she needs to know at some point.

[Oncebitten]

I can write it out, as to what i would say to her when she is back to neutral.

Part of the issue is that the last time we saw each other it didn't go perfectly, as she puts it she felt like I was a stranger.  I was admittedly a little tired and distracted.  She has this need for these fairy tail time meetings, I simply enjoy seeing her in person.  She has no idea how happy it makes me to just hold her hand (for those who don't know its a long distance relationship).  And so if we have a quiet moment where things aren't perfect its fine.  Life's not perfect, but an awkward day should not be the reason to cancel plans.  Basically she says the last time we were together I looked uncomfortable and that made her uncomfortable and she is in no hurry to do that again.  


Here's what I want to say once she returns to neutral:

Honey I am disappointed that we had to cancel our trip together.  I know we were both looking forward to it. I know our last meeting didn't goes as we had hoped, and that is bothersome. I don't want to rush things and if we need to wait until we are both comfortable I am willing to do that. I just love you and want to spend time with you

[Meili]

Honey I am disappointed that we had to cancel our trip together.  I know we were both looking forward to it. I know our last meeting didn't goes as we had hoped, and that is bothersome. I don't want to rush things and if we need to wait until we are both comfortable I am willing to do that. I just love you and want to spend time with you

Wait, is there some connection between the cancelled trip and the last meeting?

[Oncebitten]

yes and no.  Not exactly sure why she cancelled our upcoming trip.  But as she started to dis-regulate she brought up the last time we were together... .and how my behavior made her feel uncomfortable, and she has no desire to do that again anytime soon.

So I really don't know what the core issue is.  I asked and got 10 different reasons.  Essentially I feel like she is feeling insecure about the relationship so she will bring up every issue as a reason to back away from it.

[livednlearned]

She could be acting out a rejection fantasy.

This would allow her to maintain a form of equilibrium that is familiar and therefore safe, even though it is maddening for you and unhealthy for her.

She experiences the fantasy of being intimate, and then can push away before intimacy occurs, blaming you for causing it.

[Oncebitten]

LNL

So she fears that if we see each other again then I will reject her?  (am I understanding you correctly?)


She gets to keep me at arms length on the phone where everything is good and comfortable... .

How do I address that?

[Oncebitten]

Here is my current issue... .I feel like I am being strung along.  This started as a online r/s and we planned to meet months ago.  Something came up and it didn't happen.  She has always been ready to meet me and spend time with me as long as its a month out or so.  But once we get close she comes up with some reason we can't.  Sometimes it seems legit sometimes I swear she picks a fight so she can blame me and call it off.   The only reason we met in the first place is because I showed up.  She thanked me repeatedly for being brave enough to do  it.  She is upset by the fact that she feels I was distracted and distant while I was there.  Like she didnt know me.  Perhaps all we have is this online r/s and nothing more she says.  Everything was fine we were taking a trip together, something triggered her and now its off... .and this, this me being detached is the reason.  We need to wait until she is comfortable again, until she recaptures that feeling of want and desire to see me... .thing is here in a couple of days she will complain how I am not there, how she needs to see me again etc... .its this constant back and forth.  She needs me to be with her until it gets close to being real, then... .she pushes me away.

[once removed]

Honey I am disappointed that we had to cancel our trip together.  I know we were both looking forward to it. I know our last meeting didn't goes as we had hoped, and that is bothersome. I don't want to rush things and if we need to wait until we are both comfortable I am willing to do that. I just love you and want to spend time with you

i think a lighter approach is going to further - im not sure she will hear anything more than "i am disappointed, that is bothersome, i want to spend time with you".

how about something like:


Hey, wanted to say something about the trip cancellation. I want you to know that it is fine to change plans for any reason. Things happen. Doing it at the last minute is the only thing hard - can we work on that?

cool. confident. and she will likely hear your request - a big part of achieving the goal.

[livednlearned]

It's safe for her, it's how she manages her anxiety about the intense emotions intimacy creates for her.

Part of being in a relationship with her is radical acceptance that this is how she is.

I know it's tough.

If you do not chase her, she is more likely to seek emotional closeness, though it will likely be temporary if her feelings intensify and she has to maintain equilibrium. There is a big aspect of fantasy here for her -- she fantasizes the perfect merger with you and then discovers the fantasy falls short (which it always will, because it is not sustainable nor realistic).

You can only manage your own behavior. If canceled trips cost you money and are aggravating, perhaps shift some responsibility to her. Figure out a way to make it low-risk for her to make those arrangements -- maybe give her the name of a travel agent, and let her know dates you are available so she can pick from some when she feels ready, or something along those lines, whatever is workable for you.

If you are the one shouldering the full cost, tell her you will know she's ready when the bill arrives or something (altho I would hope she is footing some part of the trip, otherwise there is truly no consequence for canceling the trips on short notice).

[heartandwhole]

Oncebitten,

I feel for you. I really understand how frustrating this can be. And exhausting. It's obvious that you care very much for your gf. I know it's hard, and there are no easy answers.  

She gets to keep me at arms length on the phone where everything is good and comfortable... .

There might be an element of this in it. It certainly felt like my experience (I had a long-distance relationship as well). That way, pwBPD could have more control of access, communication, etc. He had time to think things through and deal with triggers if they were present before communicating with me. It often didn't work, though.  

How do you deal with it? I'm not sure I have an answer, but I would recommend using the time that she pulls away to focus on you and your needs. Really. It can only help your relationship. Then you come back into the next phase more centered and maybe better able to listen to her needs and articulate your feelings/needs (especially since you have been practicing communication tools). That second part is very important, too.  

heartandwhole

[Oncebitten]

Onceremoved

I can try it that way, its just upsetting bc we canceled bc of how she feels in the moment... .not bc something forced us too.


LNL

How do I manage the fantasy then?  I said we just need to spend more time together so that she can see what we have is real, and that its not just online.  She feels that is foolish, that more time in real life solves nothing... .we should wait until she feels that way again then meet.  I think she has spent so much time building the perfect meeting in her mind I will never come close

[Oncebitten]

Heartandwhole


My needs... .sigh I need to be with her, spend time with her.  Sad part is we arent oceans apart... .far enough to be a pain yes but within a days drive.  IDK at this point, part of me says just go with the flow, let her emotions guide us so she is comfortable (but that is all I have ever done on this and its gotten me here).  Part of me says just show up again, the h*ll with the consequences... .even my T applauded me the last time... .force her off center.  Part of me says never bring up seeing her again... .hope that she asks for it... .IDK I really dont know what to do.

This trip was OUR plan, WE were going to stick to it no matter what... .her words... .just crushed right now... .I know how I have to be the one to carry us... .but really just want to kiss her again... .