Crossing streams between church and P I need to be careful

[formflier]

I would ask that you guys read this from the point of view of a "pwBPD" and what you know of my wife... .and give me your opinions about how she is likely processing this.

In the past week or so she has taken things to a level that can't be ignored.  Several discussions with P.  P has established contact with BC, likely they will meet and consult next week.

I'm going to be deliberate about not posting my goal in this, I'm interested in your "first impressions" of this email... .  Let's say two first impressions.  Yours... .as you would react if I sent it to you and then see if you can imagine how my wife would react.



FF


(start of response from my wife)
I forwarded to (mentor). Babe, you have to understand you are dealing with a sinner here.  I am a work in progress. I am doing my best to grow in this area and (mentor) is helping point me in the right direction... .Thank you for being patient with me. Love, FF wife
(end of response)

On Jan 13, 2017 12:09 PM  FF wrote:

FF wife,

Perhaps you see the privacy and structure that I gravitate to in communications as a bit "off the charts"... ."over the edge"... ."excessive".  I certainly get that impression from you sometimes.  I ask for your grace in this area while we communicate, pray and find the right balance with regards to your mentor.

In my own (likely unique) way, I am thinking of you and privacy of your relationship with your mentor (mentors name).  I continue to pray that your relationship with (mentor) brings the peace you are seeking in your life.

Please forward this email to your mentor (mentor name) for her consideration.

In prior communications you indicated displeasure with me asking... .or instructing... .you to discuss a matter with your mentor.  I certainly understand and likely would feel the same, if roles were reversed.

I hope this email and your discussions with (mentor) will give you a better understanding of my request.

Not sure how to be concise about this, so I'll just jump right in.

1.  In the past couple weeks, you have made choices that concern me.  Choices in areas I consider bedrock for a Christian household.  Since (mentor) is mentoring you in your role as a Christian woman and wife, it seems appropriate for YOU to bring up your choices with her.

2.  I have no interest in being a "tattle tale" or "informant" and going directly to (mentor).  The picture I am seeing is:  "Hey... my husband and I disagree on xyz.  We've talked and he has given me some verbal and written guidance for clarity.  After considering my husbands communication, I made this choice.  What do you think?  What has God called me to do?" 
 
3.  After reaching your conclusions and making your choices going forward, I would like to hear back from you verbally and in writing about those conclusions and choices.  I'm not interested in "(mentor) said this" or such and such author said that... .therefore XYZ is my conclusion and choice going forward in this matter".

My hope and prayer is you will invite me to read certain passages in the Bible and so I may prayerfully consider your conclusions and choices going forward.

such as:

"FF, I focused generally on the first two chapters in the book of X.  I was particularly drawn to verses 1, 2 and 3.  After prayer, my conclusion is the Bible teaches Y, therefore my choice going forward in the matter you raised is Z."

4.  Last thought:  I will refrain from asking you to bring up issues generally acceptable for Christians to disagree on.  I realize many Christians disagree about many things, to include the list of what can be disagreed on... .sigh (likely we all agree on that sigh... .).  To the best of my ability, I will only bring up issues fundamental to Christian faith and a Christian household. 

In summary, I ask that you forward this to your mentor (mentor name).  I would like to hear back from you, in a couple days, with your thoughts about the appropriateness of my request.  If you have other ideas, please share those as well.

Is Sunday evening too early to request a response?

Love,

FF

[formflier]

So... .things that have led me to "take action"

1. Instructing my kids that Daddy is not a Christian.
2. Asking forgiveness for instructing kids Daddy is not a Christian in a ridiculous insincere way... .it was quite a show...
3.  Warning the kids that I was "taking kids hostage" in the kitchen when I didn't immediately hand over D6 to go to "Mommy's Bible study".  She physically started to move table to she could get access to D6.  I held table in place.  My wife's eyes were wide... .face typical of "full dysregulation"
4.  The last time I asked her for forgiveness for something she laughed at me, used the Lords name in vain, and then gave me a whacky theory of what it was I was asking forgiveness for.  She denied laughing... .fully admits using Lords name in vain and explaining "what I actually thought".  Apparently see's nothing wrong with that.


I could list about 10-20 other things... .but none of those are what I would consider "bedrock" to Christian faith.  

Since this applies to my kids... .not really sure if it is appropriate to call this a boundary.  I do believe that I will be held to account for how I have taught my kids "in the Lord".  By extension I believe that if I "allow" or don't "correct" certain teachings that are given to my kids (by anyone... to include my wife)... .I will be held to account for "not being a steward of what God has entrusted to me" (my kids).

Dealing with BPDish stuff can seem to bring all kinds of compromises.  There are some things that I won't compromise on.

So... .while I might overlook my wife not "edifying" someone or the kids when yelling at them, when she starts to mock God or present an example of judging other Christianity... .I'm not going to "let that go".

Thoughts?


FF

[KateCat]

My immediate thought is that waiting for a report from the psychologist following her meeting with the Biblical Counselor might be the wisest course of action before embarking on any others. (Do you gather that the psychologist's mission is to attempt to help the church mentor-ship understand that your wife suffers from a mental illness?)

Have you and the psychologist had a chance to discuss privately what you can do about accusations against you leveled when the children are present? I wonder if this is real "boundary" stuff in the case of mental illness--for instance, you telling your wife that declarations that you are not a Christian may lead to the end of your marriage--or if this is something that is best handled between you and your children in times when their mentally unwell mother is not present.

[formflier]

The quick version of what the P suggested is to have the church "teach" my wife the proper responses.  Basically... .my wife will from time to time... .view the church as an authority figure.  She values what they think of her.

We'll see if it works in this instance.

The P has a goal of "getting the church on our team"... .however... .will have to play that by ear.

There is zero chance that church will teach her to respond by continuing this behavior... .and it has to end... .one way or another.

More later.

FF

[formflier]

Oh... .P gave clearance for me to initiate contact... .

My impression is that she saw severity of acting out and potential impacts of letting it continue were bad.

However... .if we "box her in" too much... .she could feel trapped.

Likely I will ask her to discuss 1 issue at a time with her mentor.

FF

[Sunfl0wer]

It is possible you two have some understanding of one another that she will comprehend this... . However, for me, I would not know what you are talking about.  I only know what you are talking about because of your second post.  Yet the original email feels too vague, kinda confuses me, and then what follows feels controlling and telling me what to do throughout.  

Seems like a laundry list of demands addressing a vague, unspoken concern.

1. Send to mentor, am asking, even though I know you don't like that
2. Reply orally
3. Reply email
4. Reply using scriptue to back up your choices as I assume you based your decisions biblically

It feels a bit like a veiled accusation that I did not consider the bible in decision making.  It feels so strict, firm, that I would feel boxed, and it is too unclear for me to feel I accurately understand the issue, (i cannot hear the tooic you are presenting) that I would get anxious about responding so I feel trapped into failing.

It would feel very much like an attack, to which you are outlining how I can must JADE back to you... .in a very specific manner.

I would fail by engaging in this.

[KateCat]

I see a family that has stark episodes of conflict, which occasionally spill into domestic violence. A wife with mental illness who openly accuses the husband of things like adultery and having another family. And now tells her children that their father is not a Christian.

And this has been going on for a long time.

It's not clear to me how you can look to complicated agreements with your wife to help bring order to the family. Maybe she will be able to understand clear prohibitions against certain statements and actions. If you work with the psychologist and the church to develop formats of behavioral help for your wife, that might be your best bet.

I think you are inviting confusion and additional struggle with your wife when you ask for either oral or written agreements of general principle, as well as when you ask her for verses and authorities to justify her actions.

[flourdust]

I think KateCat makes a good point. I would add one thing to that ... .the in-the-moment nature of BPD, and the discontinuity between moments.

Moment 1: Your wife acting out in front of the kids.

Moment 2: You and your wife exchanging civil messages.

Moment 3: Your wife meets with her mentor.

Moment 4: Your wife acts out in front of the kids again.

There isn't enough emotional carry-over between these "moments" for you to try to steer toward some lasting change. She's angry at you in Moment 1, friendly in Moment 2, who knows what in Moment 3, and angry at you again in Moment 4. (That one hasn't happened yet, but you know it will... .)

You can't get her to make an agreement in Moment 2 or come to an insight about her behavior in Moment 3 that will carry over to modulate her in Moment 4. Dealing with BPD, as I've learned it, is about the non using skills to manage the moment during the moment. To get continuity of change, your wife would need to be developing her own skills, as in DBT.

I think you've done really well at learning how to handle these moments when they come up. I sense your frustration that they keep coming up and may be getting worse, and you'd like to be able to proactively prevent them from happening. I'm not sure you can do that.

[empath]

My reaction to the email is that it is vague and unspecific and somewhat accusatory. Do you know that she hasn't talked about her choices with her mentor? The reason that I ask is that my husband was talking with his T about his choices based on what he believed about me which were not true. Of course, he was also misrepresenting his choices to his T; this was made clear when T suggested that I talk with her. He also has done this with his pastor - which is the reason that I started meeting with his pastor. Expecting that he can be open and honest about his choices and my thoughts/beliefs/attitudes is an unrealistic expectation. I think it is probably unrealistic for you as well.


What did your P give you clearance to do?

[formflier]

What did your P give you clearance to do?

Reach out to leadership in church to confirm what my wife is being taught.  In "secular" circles I get that this is a conflict of interest.

In conservative Christian circles, I am "over" my wife's Biblical teaching.  (likely saying that in a bit of an odd way... .).    Let me try again... .a bit tired at the moment.  

Just as I am responsible for guiding my children, I am responsible for guiding my wife in Biblical matters.

P agreed the best way was for my wife to go to church about this matter.  To her credit, she says she forwarded this to her mentor.  

I'll be specifically raising a couple of issues in a day or two for them to discuss.  

This email was setting boundaries and expectations and was honestly a shot across the bow that attention will be brought to things she "brings up".  

My P, like me and many of you... .have all sorts concerns about the impact of all of this.  On the one hand she advises to not go looking for trouble (basically leave minor things alone... she is likely never going to be "normal" again).

On the other hand... .she says other things "can't be ignored".  Remember... .my P is Christian.  She is adamant that what my wife is doing with "competing Bible studies" and these public pronouncements about me (and others) is teaching my kids to "hate Christianity".

When we had 1 family devotion and we all were there, it was generally a good thing.  Especially for the kids.

The Ps goal is to maximize stability for the children.  Realizing that is a relative thing... .normal is not achievable. 

Sigh

FF

[formflier]

 and you'd like to be able to proactively prevent them from happening. I'm not sure you can do that.

I would love this... .however I do understand it is not a likely scenario.

Motivations

1.  Maximize stability for kids.
2.  Minimize enabling type of therapies. (much like empath).  However, for this one... .I'm going to try to "pick battles".
3.  Certainly there is a desire to have others "see clearly" what is going on.  I try to tamp this down... ."check my motivations"... .but it's there

Update:  Just exchanged some texts with P.  Meeting moved up to tomorrow morning... .vice Tuesday.

If you guys have specific questions for me to discuss... .let me know.  One thing my P has been trying to get me to do better at is spend more time on the "strategic" level of the r/s... .rather than getting caught up in normal BPDish stuff.  My guess is that she is going to advise me to handle the "big picture" stuff with her going to her mentor (don't teach your kids your hubby is not Christian)... and then back off.

FF

[Grey Kitty]

I'm not much help on biblical questions, so I'm skipping them, and trying to reduce the situation to simple behaviors that you can address. Here's what I've seen:

1. Your wife says crap that is out of line to you.
2. Your wife says crap that is out of line to your kids.
3. Your wife uses the kids in power struggles with you.

In all these cases, I think your best answer is boundary enforcement to stop this at the time it happens if you are there. Not "easy" but simple, and you are doing better.

I'd stop there, and not do anything more about these after the time and event has passed. Don't bring up the topic with your wife. Don't get in theological debates with your wife. Don't bite on circular arguments here.

If your wife tries to pull others into these battles, refuse to participate that way. Anything which starts out like "Person X says that you... ." or "Person X says that I... ." isn't for you to participate in. If you will accept Person X for mediation or guidance, only do it when you are present with the person. Otherwise it is a circular argument.

If your wife is pulling crap with the kids when you aren't there, that is one of the few times you have to discuss it with her even partly on her terms.

[KateCat]

3.  Warning the kids that I was "taking kids hostage" in the kitchen when I didn't immediately hand over D6 to go to "Mommy's Bible study".  She physically started to move table to she could get access to D6.  I held table in place.

Would the psychologist have any advice for situations like this where the confrontation begins to turn physical? (And things like your wife trying to get to you through a closed door, or blocking your path?)

[empath]

Reach out to leadership in church to confirm what my wife is being taught.  In "secular" circles I get that this is a conflict of interest.

In conservative Christian circles, I am "over" my wife's Biblical teaching.  (likely saying that in a bit of an odd way... .).    Let me try again... .a bit tired at the moment. 

Just as I am responsible for guiding my children, I am responsible for guiding my wife in Biblical matters.

Yep, I get it. The church is also opposed to 'secular' psychology from what I gather.

I don't think you want to have your wife being the source of your information about what the church is teaching her; she is likely to twist and distort it to mean whatever she wants it to mean. I'm a bit concerned that they may actually think that if the father is teaching the children things that are contrary to their views (regardless of what 'Christians can generally agree on' - which is actually pretty limited), the children should not obey and wife should not submit because their own salvation is on the line.

I would suggest that you talk to your P about how to ask directly what she is being taught and what the options are if they actually are teaching what she claims they are.

[Notwendy]

I have to admit, I find these posts to be confusing. I understand Christianity- but the practice is varied and includes your branch.

Yet it basically seems to come down to an agreement between husband and wife to follow the rules of your church. It also seems that agreements between you and your wife seem to break down- she doesn't follow through.

I've mentioned before about the idea of "religious abuse" that has been brought up in ACA groups where parents were dysfunctional, and their practice of religion was dysfunctional too. Dysfunction affects all aspects of a person. If your wife has dysfunctional behavior- then it isn't a surprise that religion is affected.

Triangulation is triangulation. It's power. A secular person may tell the kids their father is a jerk, or dishonest. A religious person may say ":)addy isn't a Christian"- this just gets you because I think religion is an area most meaningful to you- so it has a punch to it. But for someone else, it might be their career, or hobby, or something meaningful to them.

I'm with GK here- religion or not- it is unwanted behavior. How to deal with the behavior? It seems the religion aspect complicates things.

To me, kids learn more from what they see their parents doing than what their parents say. If your wife is saying you are not a Christian, and they see you taking them to volunteer in a soup kitchen- then the message is clear without you saying anything.

[formflier]

 
I'm off to see P in about 30 minutes.


I wants as far away from a Triangle as possible... .that was why I wanted this to be directly between me and my wife... .then my wife goes to her mentor.  When my wife comes back... .she doesn't discuss what mentor told her... .or different authors.  The authority is the Bible.  If she references her choices to the Bible, much of this gets somewhat better.

The question that remains... .it will soon become obvious to anyone that is looking that my wife doesn't keep agreements.  At that point will my wife "toss over" this church that she puts on a pedestal... .or will she keep the agreement.

This church "hammers away" at "growth" in the Christian life.  So, once it is obvious that someone is not "growing" (same issue... .over and over... .or worse)... .it will get lots of attention.

Thanks for bringing up other points of view... .very helpful.

FF

[Fian]

One other observation from a Christian perspective.  It seems to be that your wife's logic is the following.  Christian wives need to submit to Christian husbands.  My husband is not a Christian.  Therefore I do not need to submit to him.  The flaw in her thinking is that you being Christian or not does not change the dynamic.  Her role is still to submit unless you are doing something overtly against God's commands (honey please drive the car to help me rob this bank).

[formflier]

Good session today with P.  She listened to a couple of the events.  She remains adamant that "something must be done" and "what is happening right now will teach them to hate the church"

There is a tentative meeting set up later this week between her and the BC.  That they will meet has been agreed to, I think there are some minor details about which day works best that are still being worked on.

She wants to have in person meeting with him to see if there is any way they can work together and to make sure she understands some of his teaching.  

The goal is bringing stability to the household.

She has a list of things that she wants to discuss with him.  

She has asked me for prioritized list.

The basic conundrum that she is looking at goes like this:  My wife has chosen a belief system and church that support "headship" of the husband, yet she attacks that system at almost every opportunity.  

P understands how my wife has come to believe this.  Very sad actually... .both male grandparents were loosers (cheating, booze, multiple affairs... .really bad) and near as we can figure her father worked all the time and "abandoned" my wife to the whims of my mother in law (way worse BPDish than my wife)

She will be asking how BC addresses issues when it appears "religion" is being used as a weapon.

Trying to stay neutral on this.  :)on't want to get my hopes up.  I do agree we need to get an answer if there is a way to work together... .or not.

FF

[Larmoyant]

FF, you asked for our opinions and I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but all of this is coming across as very controlling. Can I ask is your wife aware of this meeting? Will you be informing her of it? Is there a danger here that she may perceive that you, your P and BC are trying to control her and her choices? Given that pwBPD have issues with control is this likely to bring stability to the household?

[Notwendy]

Is this stream of Christianity your choice too? The woman submitting to the man, the church monitoring someone's spiritual growth?

To me, my spiritual growth is between me and my Creator, and its path isn't necessarily the same as someone else's.

I understand the submission aspect,( it isn't my cup of tea)in the spiritual sense,  but this can be interpreted in different ways. A wife is a partner, not a child.

You have the right to choose your church but this focus on who is a Christian or not, and declaring oneself a sinner feels so negative to me.

I agree with the P, this might make your kids hate the church. Some members of my ACA group who experienced abuse of religion have either left their church altogether or changed denominations to be able to experience their own spirituality as they choose.

[formflier]

Personally... I'm a bit more liberal than this church and my wife.  I see it as a matter of nuance... .not something we would "separate" from other believers on.

Um... .this is very controlling on my part.  I'm not going to allow this type of thing in the household that I am responsible for.

Also... .my wife is making a conscious choice to put herself under the teaching/authority of the church.  The church (BC as a representative) made a choice that he would no longer allow me to "receive counsel" from the church, yet offered for my wife to continue to receive it, my wife has claimed on some of the whacky things that she is carrying out what she has been taught (about zero chance she is actually being taught this).  

Anyway, at times in the past when my wife has made progress it was, in large part, due to the church (BC) clamping down on her.  Had she not followed their direction... .she would likely have been booted from counseling.

For several weeks,  after 10pm she was only allowed to read her Bible and talk to God.  That was one of the ways the "sleep deprivation" thing got solved... .so that she would not wake me up and to the BPDish thing.  It worked.

Who knows if any such thing will come out of this contact.  Who knows if there is anyway for P and the church to "cooperate" in stabilizing our family.  The only way to find out is to try.

 Much like "the sleep thing" was something that had to be solved, I see the issue of the mockery my wife is making of family devotions being one that "can't go on".

To be clear... I don't think there should be any focus on who is or isn't a Christian.  I also don't think "sin" or "who has sinned" should be dwelled on.  My wife claims this is what is being taught to her (about zero chance it is).

I do appreciate the opinions and totally respect this isn't everyone's cup of tea.  

FF

[empath]

To be clear... I don't think there should be any focus on who is or isn't a Christian.  I also don't think "sin" or "who has sinned" should be dwelled on.  My wife claims this is what is being taught to her (about zero chance it is).

Based on your descriptions of the BC and the issues that were raised in that experience, there may be a chance that she is being taught that those who are not acting "like Christians" are probably not. I'm far more familiar with these types of beliefs than I would like to be, but it is helpful sometimes. One of their characteristics is separation from those who are 'not Christians' (or who do not follow their beliefs); another is a rejection of anything that is viewed as coming from the 'secular' world, especially psychology.

They have identified a few 'reasons' to have decided that you are not a 'Christian' based on their own understandings and legalistic mindset - along with the idea that you aren't submitting to their direction.

So, I'm concerned that they may actually agree that the kids should not be receiving biblical training from you, and that they should not be obeying you in these 'spiritual' matters because they have judged your spiritual state. Your experience with BC seemed to show that they were not reasonable or accepting of differing points of view. If that is the case, do you have a plan about the way forward if they reject you as the spiritual 'head' because you don't play by their rules?

[formflier]

If that is the case, do you have a plan about the way forward if they reject you as the spiritual 'head' because you don't play by their rules?

I suppose this could happen, but I find it very unlikely. 

I know all too well about the different groups that "separate" from and "reject psychology".  This church does "stiff arm" psychology... .I would not say that they outright reject it.

They are very open about what they would and won't separate from... .it's a fairly reasonable list.

So... .for instance, while this church has an all male group of deacons, they do associate with those that believe women are allowed to be deacons.  If people tried to claim that "works" could get you to heaven, they WOULD separate from them.

They are also big about "openness" and practice church discipline.  There is about zero chance that they could listen to my wife ranting and raving during family devotions and issue any kind of  "ruling" that my wife should be followed and I be ignored.

But... .here is the thing.  Big picture:  I need to understand if and how the church may be an ally (part of the solution) or if they are going to be "against" me, might as well clarify that.

FF

[Fian]

I don't know too much about counseling, but isn't it unusual for a psychologist to enter the world of a patient to try and resolve something?  For your psychologist to talk to your wife's BC so that he can then make changes in the guidance he gives her seems strange to me.  I thought psychologist interaction was limited to counseling in a session and meds.

[jonmnemonic]

But... .here is the thing.  Big picture:  I need to understand if and how the church may be an ally (part of the solution) or if they are going to be "against" me, might as well clarify that.
FF

Are you talking to the senior pastor on a regular basis?  What has their position been on your marriage so far?

[Larmoyant]

.I would ask that you guys read this from the point of view of a "pwBPD" and what you know of my wife... .and give me your opinions about how she is likely processing this.

.

It’s my understanding that pwBPD are often in states of emotional distress. Their perception of others is often skewed and they fear abandonment from the people closest to them. Having little ability to self-soothe may cause them to act out when their emotions get overwhelming causing them to feel out of control so they then attempt to control others in unhealthy ways. This appears to be happening in your home and is playing out with issues around the children and spiritual beliefs.

You are engaged with this power struggle too. In an attempt to bring stability to your household you have recruited the help of a P who has arranged a meeting with your wife’s BC apparently without her knowledge. The goal appears to be to ‘persuade’ her to follow the churches rules that she is to follow your guidance as the adult male in the home.

I hope I'm not upsetting you, but from the outside it appears to be clandestine and controlling behaviour. pwBPD have issues around control. If your wife perceives your behaviour, as well as the P and the BC, as controlling then I would imagine this might exacerbate her emotional distress. 

I am far from an expert in BPD, but it doesn’t seem to be a productive way to go about things, nor kind to your wife at all, but maybe I’m missing something.

I would imagine that a good goal might be to help your wife learn how to self-soothe with the help of a professional enabling her to cope with overwhelming feelings and then perhaps things might settle down at home?

[formflier]

Yes, having a P consult with the religious counselors (BC) is unusual.  It is not unprecedented.

My wife has had several joint and individual sessions with the P and P has long standing relationship with me. 

Basically, P has pretty good handle on the dynamics that are playing out in my household.

There are some examples (I don't know details, P has a bit better handle on that) of the secular community working with this church successfully.  There are also examples of people under care of
secular Ps going to this church and "attending prayer groups and getting off meds"... .with disastrous results. 

So... .back to big goal.  Is there a way that P and church can cooperate on stabilizing the family?  If so... .then explore those avenues.  If not, then we know and can spend no further time and energy exploring that avenue.

Notification of my wife about meetings:   Written releases were signed a while back so P and BC can talk to each other about each of us individually and about the marriage.  In fact, my wife was the one that brought it up and "demanded" it.  Then she "forbade" it... .  After a week or two, and apparently some talks with her mentor, she settled down and signed off.  Again... amazingly (yet typically BPDish) this was her idea... .that she then fought... .then got ok with.   

P told me that should put something in the email asking BC to notify anyone that he believed needed to know about the meeting. 

Contact with pastors:  I have had limited contact with BC since counseling ended.  My primary worship pastor is a different guy.  That pastor got brought up to speed last week on details.  Releases were signed so this guy can be aware.  My wife is aware of this development. 

If I didn't answer any questions... .let me know.  I'll try to get to all of them.

I understand that my family's belief system is perhaps not the best for a pwBPD.  It is what it is.  I've certainly made compromises that I feel uncomfortable about in the past, but nothing that "kept me up at night".

I believe that one day I will answer for how I led my wife and my family.  My wife has made a choice (albeit likely an emotional one) to go into an area where I'm not willing to compromise.

That is... .what it is. 

Being a leader is ultimately about using your judgment and making a choice with incomplete information.  It's not about being popular or "keeping people happy".

I understand that from a certain point of view the best course of action is to reduce tension in the home vice "take a stand". 

Please understand I have made a value judgment that events of recent weeks, specifically my wife's mockery of family devotions and (what I consider) bedrock issues of the Christian faith are worth taking a stand and paying the associated cost.

I've done this before on other issues... .and honestly the marriage and family has taken a turn for the better.  This doesn't mean I should take a stand on ALL issues. 

Please keep the comments coming, even ones contrary to my choice.  I certainly don't want to assume that I have looked at all angles.

Thanks

FF

[empath]

Since you asked how a pwBPD would react, I'll share a part of my story because I think it relates.

Several years ago, my h and I were attending a church and he was seeking ordination. He needed the pastor to set things up for that to get underway, and he had been going to the pastor every 6 months or so for about 5 years. Pastor had some unexpressed concerns about h - and h was getting extremely frustrated about the whole thing. I was serving in a leadership role and encouraged the pastor to tell h what the concerns were. So, all three of us sat down and talked about the pastor's concerns: h didn't listen to previous direction, was unstable, and there were concerns about h's role in our family life. Pastor encouraged h to wait several more months. We left that church a couple of months later for a church that wanted to start the ordination process quickly.

The way h interprets the events is that the pastor and I ganged up on him; he thinks I betrayed his trust again. He did take the instruction to heart and has been trying his best not to be unstable - but in reality, he most likely cannot do that. It makes him feel judged, accused, criticized, ashamed and not good enough.

Unfortunately, some of that prevented him from acting on things that he needed to do and his job performance, employment and health have suffered in the aftermath. His current church is aware now of the impulsiveness and instability - and the people don't quite understand why he seems stuck there.

[formflier]

Something similar could happen here.

However... .this church is "THE" church in the field of Biblical Counseling.  At least in the eyes of my wife.  There is truth in that view.

So... .if the high ranking BC is ok with doing things this way... .then... .

If the mentor goes along with this then... .

Remains to be seen, but... .I need to figure out where my family stands with this church and BPDish stuff.

A previous church, that provided input for this BC, got to the point where my wife could ask me one question... .I gave one answer... .then she was to "trust God" with the outcome.  Result:  Relative stability for 6 months or so... .perhaps a year.  In fact... that pastor was the first person to label "paranoia". 

We'll see...

FF

[empath]

My h believes the church has authority, too. His P also has told him that he is emotionally labile on a personality level - that's what he told me... .  Thankfully, I wasn't involved in the P's sessions until once much later.

It feels 'like an affair' to him. Regardless of what they consent to, their emotions are driving the train.

The other part of this is that he was also told that some of his 'self-medicating' behaviors were seen as bad, so he couldn't do those either. He knows and agrees intellectually they are bad. His emotions remained the same, but he couldn't do anything with them. 

If this plan further destabilizes your family by painting you permanently black, have you thought through what to do?

[formflier]

If this plan further destabilizes your family by painting you permanently black, have you thought through what to do?

Live the best life that I can. 

You would think... .but you never can tell... .that after surviving the CPS report and stopping my wife from using corporal punishment... .that "stopping" my wife from extreme religious stuff (lecturing kids that I am not a Christian... .etc etc) wouldn't be near as bad.

Listen... .I'm sure that she will feel completely controlled and there will be a consequence for that.  Occasionally there is still fallout from calling CPS.  But that is not the point

No child in my house has had corporal punishment for a couple years.  That's a win in my book.  Looking back, I should have done something sooner.

Anyway... .the religious thing has been brewing for a bit.  Now it's popped.  If I can that behavior stopped... .another win for the family.

I'm under no illusions that the dysfunction will go away.  Likely just pop up somewhere else.  However... .with more practice with boundaries and self care... .I should be able to adjust fairly quickly.

FF

[jonmnemonic]

I don't know the full extent or context of your situation but a lot of what you've written in this thread seems to suggest you are doing everything in your power to change your wife.  Others have called this out as controlling and I'd tend to agree with that; although, I don't doubt your motivations are good. 

Some positives:
1. Sounds like your wife is willing to be in counselling and has acknowledged she has issues that need to be worked on
2. You have a good support network that is able to communicate with each other to work most effectively
3. You love your family and want to lead them according to the Bible

I guess my real concern in all of this is the effort you're putting into it won't be rewarded with the wife you want and namely how that will impact you and your family.  Leadership can be a lonely place when nobody is following you, especially when you know you're doing the right thing.  Ultimately your wife is an adult and makes her own decisions.  She will answer to God for the choices she makes just as you will answer to God for how you led your family (ie. you aren't responsible for your wife not following your leadership).  Her submission to your headship is a reflection of her submission to Christ.  Bottom line is you might be able to force your wife to go through the motions but you should be most concerned with her heart and her relationship with Christ.

[jonmnemonic]

I'd suggest you pray about and then love you wife according to 1 Corinthians 13:4-8a.  Make a point of living that out in every interaction you have with your wife every day.  If you don't already, get a spiritually mature man in your life to keep you accountable to that.

[formflier]

My brutally hones answer is I am more worried about my kids hearts... than my wife's.  Perhaps someday she will do something more than go through the motions or surface compliance on an issue.

Understand my definition of "victory" is "surface compliance"... .stop sabotaging family devotions with her outbursts.

FF

[Sunfl0wer]

Idk, seems like the "function" of your dynamics with each other.
It repeats.
She pushes and pushes
Then some type of intervention occurs to "set her back in her place" (i hate how that sounds but had not nicer phrase)
Then she "behaves" for a bit
Then it builds again

Seems like part of what keeps you two functioning is that she pushes the boundaries, sees how far they go, then you do a good job being pretty clear in certain boundaries, she gets told/shown, etc.  and things go on.

Makes me think of the board game Trouble where you can return an opponents piece to home, they gotta advance from that position again.

(Just saying, I think your current approach has RA in it)

[empath]

To my husband's credit, he has not gone out and bought a new car after his broke and he can't fix it right now. The debt was something that the church told him was bad, and they made him take a course on financial responsibility. He doesn't like it, but he complies because they have something he wants. I wasn't part of their decision about that, though, so I'm not at fault in his mind.

That was a win for us, too. He complains about it and thinks they are completely unrealistic, still.


It seems to me that concrete and well-defined limits are the easiest for them to understand and comply with. Areas that are subject to interpretation are more confusing (gray-zone). So, what are the concrete limits that you want?

[formflier]

  So, what are the concrete limits that you want?

Good question... I've been kicking this around... .likely need help organizing this into a "final answer"

People in my family may speak about their religious experiences and beliefs, they may not speak about the experiences and beliefs of others... .for that... they listen.

Note... .the above thing can be extended to feelings and thoughts... .although I think this could quickly get lost on the church.

If you don't want to talk about your emotions... .that is fine... .others in our house are free to talk about their feelings, ESPECIALLY with regard to Biblical matters. 

It's ok to disagree with your spouse.  It's not OK to discuss that with your kids.

I'll hush for now... .I need to think more about this.

FF

[Fian]

I guess I would put it as it is not ok to denigrate your spouse to your kids or undermine their authority.  Issues between parents are not discussed in front of kids.  The point of saying you are not saved was not some concern for your soul, but to tell your kids that they didn't have to listen to you.

[Grey Kitty]

My brutally hones answer is I am more worried about my kids hearts... than my wife's.  Perhaps someday she will do something more than go through the motions or surface compliance on an issue.

Understand my definition of "victory" is "surface compliance"... .stop sabotaging family devotions with her outbursts.

  Good answer. As an adult parent, you are responsible for your children in a way you are not responsible for your wife. So it should take priority.

From my (secular) perspective, I don't fully get "headship", but I'm pretty sure that the responsibility placed onto you for your wife's spiritual development is still less than that placed on you for your children's, and that in situations where you have to choose, giving your children priority is right, isn't it?

Surface compliance from your wife seems to be enough. Especially if the alternative is a circular theological argument with her, which I don't see as any more beneficial than any other kind of circular argument!

[formflier]

Especially if the alternative is a circular theological argument with her, which I don't see as any more beneficial than any other kind of circular argument!

Or a public contradictory argument.  Such as my wife teaching kids about respect to those placed above you, and then publicly disrespecting those put above her.

I get it that we are all flawed people... .but as y'all know all to well... .the BPDish part of it puts things on steroids... .with seemingly no ability to see "their" part in it.

Headship:   I serve my wife as Christ served the church.  If there is a disagreement, I am the tiebreaker... .as long as it is not a sinful command or request. 

So if there is a disagreement about what our kids should be taught about the Bible today... or this month... .I'm the decider.

Just for clarity... .in "normal" Christian marriages this authority is rarely asserted.  More often than not a husband will "serve" his wife by deferring to her and putting her needs first (just as Christ did for the church). 

I'm sure that you can see how "always" putting the needs of a BPDish person first is a recipe for disaster.

FF

[Larmoyant]

With all due respect, maybe the problem here is how you are going about getting her to ‘comply’ with your wishes. It sounds disrespectful to recruit others to help you do this ‘without her knowledge’ and possibly will fuel the fire of this power struggle. In turn your children may well suffer the consequences. Assuming you are successful and get her to comply this time. What about next time? What are the likely long term effects for your children? Can I ask how much experience your P has had with pwBPD?

[formflier]

  Can I ask how much experience your P has had with pwBPD?

Quite a bit.  I don't have numbers... .she is PhD type... .in he 60s (I don't know her exact age.)

This P and prior Ps have all agreed that my wife is likely more in the PPD spectrum... .than BPD.  Perhaps another way of saying it is paranoia is central.  Fundamental distrust of men is central due to FOO background.  I struggle to find one "good" example of a man in her family.

Ummm... .how I am going about it.  Likely I've not been clear enough... .or focused on that enough.

I'm asking her to take these issues directly to her mentor... .vice me "going around her" to her mentor. 

Compliance... .we've talked several times, exchanged several emails... .several texts.  I believe looking at the record, any "reasonable" person would see clear instructions for how things were to go, while a bigger picture discussion was going on. 

Granted... .my wife may or may not see it that way.

This is about choices.  I have a choice to continue the power struggle... .or not.  As does my wife.  I've chosen to continue the power struggle... and win... on this particular issue.  Biblical teaching of our children, in our home.

Big picture BPD strategy:  Try to not "pick" fights.  Make sure the ones you pick really matter... .and make sure you win.  Very similar to boundary enforcement, consistency is key... .if I am a flip flopper... .that will be exploited.

FF

[empath]

I'm asking her to take these issues directly to her mentor... .vice me "going around her" to her mentor. 

I'm a bit concerned about you relying on her to accurately portray the issues to her mentor and back to you. I'll admit that comes from my own experience of my husband twisting the things that I have said and telling others about what he thinks I want/mean/believe. He has a difficult time even reflecting back what I have said in my conversations with him.

Does your wife have a decent track record of being able to accurately relay information?


The issues about speaking about feelings and disagreeing seem a bit gray to me.

[formflier]

 
I wrote her an email... .that she forwarded to her mentor.  At some point she is going to do some writing in response and we'll have a conversation or two about it.

Big points.

1.  She is making judgments about my and others Christianity.  Judgments about my Christianity are made to my kids.

2.  She has not been showing up to family devotions.

Likely outcomes.

I was clear about what I was looking for... .paraphrase "hush and show up", which is likely all I will get.  I'll count that as good enough.

I did put in the email that I hope she and her mentor could talk through "heart issues" that would lead her to do and say such things.  I'm doubtful that will go anywhere.

Not sure if other peoples pwBPD are like this, but I rarely get all of what I ask for.  But... .I rarely get nothing either, especially after some big event or wrongdoing. 

I expect to get the easy stuff... .what I call "surface compliance".

We'll see.

More later... hopefully later tonight.

FF

[formflier]

Guess who was perfectly pleasant this morning... .and showed up to family devotions... .on time?


FF

[empath]

FF, can she continue her own Bible studies with the kids?

[formflier]

FF, can she continue her own Bible studies with the kids?

At this time... .no.  Family devotions as a family unit... .no splits or "camps".

We're going out to lunch tomorrow and my hope is to talk through how to coordinate individual Bible study.

History:  She started demanding that kids "had to" do individual Bible study and that turned into her leading it (at least it sounded that way).

More later.

FF

[Fian]

So was the meeting held?  Did you see any results from the meeting?

[formflier]

So was the meeting held?  Did you see any results from the meeting?

The meeting between P and BC has not happened yet.  They have exchanged some email about it.  Perhaps this coming week, I'll find out more on Tuesday.

My wife has discussed the "teaching her kids that her hubby is not a Christian issue"... .my wife seemed rattled when she came home... then went into the uber nice mode for a couple of days. 

Today at lunch was the first "nasty moment" we have had in several days.  I succinctly stated my issue and disengaged.  She huffed and puffed for a minute or two and seems to be "seething" since then.

I'm doing my own thing.

She has showed up at most family devotions and seems to be going for "surface compliance".

FF