Desperate to save myself and my marriage

[Grey Kitty]

Well that was quick. A couple of conversations later, my wife is now asking for a separation.

FIRST: Take that seriously, and believe that you may be in for a legal battle. Prepare yourself for it. I'd suggest two things:

1. Post on the legal board here with your legal situation, especially what you want in the way of custody if you do separate or divorce. You'll get a lot of good, practical advice there from senior folks who've been through it.

2. Talk to / interview a lawyer. Possibly more than one.  Ask your lawyer about their experience with "high conflict divorce cases". That is the industry term for what happens when a pwBPD uses lawyers and the legal process against you in a dysregulated rage.

SECOND: Has she made threats like this before? Has she acted on them? Some pwBPD are very big on threats but never or seldom follow through. I don't know your wife.

[misterblister]

@insideout77 - From the bottom of my heart, thank you. Your two recent replies are invaluable to me. I am going to keep reading them so I can remember. Some of what you said already rings very true, and having one's instincts confirmed by somebody who's been there is very comforting and encouraging.

MB- I'm not sure I can offer much sage advice.  But, can I share a few minutes sitting next to you as we huddle in the trenches?
1. I am discovering that I'm mad at myself for letting me get to where I am now.  I look back and say that no self-respecting man would have put up with what I gave into, and worked around - even from the start.  It was bad, I knew it on some level, but I just stayed in it. And look where I am now.  Deeper.  So, I get your first point.

A nice hot cup of coffee with a splash of whiskey is just what I need in the trenches.

As for Why, www.gettinbetter.com/needlove.html hit the grand slam for me when I stumbled upon it a few years ago. It was like open heart surgery. May not apply to you, but many of her articles hit me with a piercing insight I find nowhere else.

I haven't earned my sage medal yet. I have been thinking about marriage as a many-layered cake that requires two chefs contributing the proper ingredients for it to avoid becoming a teetering inedible monstrosity. One chef's sugar can't fix another's toxic frosting.

All I know for sure is that I willingly married a woman who appears constitutionally incapable of real trust, real forgiveness, and real emotional intimacy with me. Why I failed or refused to recognize this before or soon after the marriage is for me to unravel, and for me to own.

Fueled by commitment and duty and hope, I put myself into automatic and held on for dear life. When children arrived, I doubled-down, ignoring my instincts. My self-trust and self-confidence eroded, but I chalked that up to self-sacrifice for family stability. I had an ideal of marriage and of my children's happiness that made divorce the Great Satan. It was literally unthinkable to me.

I have to forgive myself. I had no idea that anything as profound as BPD existed, and I did love my wife and believed we would be soul mates.

2. Right there too.  I hit a point at which I couldn't determine which was worse between death, marriage, or divorce. I got much better, but at what point am I going to live my life?  Which goes back to point 1, above.  Get busy living or get busy dying.  Am I going to spend the next 20 years like the last - making sure my wife is having a decent life?  At the cost of my own?

I don't know you or your wife, but my wife is high-functioning. I have no doubt that her adult side is participating in this, realizing the futility and anguish is not worth enduring for these precious remaining years. I imagine some BPD spouses are more content being in the eye of the storm and will hang on until you die from it.

insideout77 has far more wisdom than me at this stage so I would listen to him.

[SamwizeGamgee]

These last two pages of posts have drilled right into my soul.  I could have written half of it because I lived it, but my writing would not be coherent.  I thank you all.

[insideout77]

@insideout77 - From the bottom of my heart, thank you. Your two recent replies are invaluable to me. I am going to keep reading them so I can remember. Some of what you said already rings very true, and having one's instincts confirmed by somebody who's been there is very comforting and encouraging.

All I know for sure is that I willingly married a woman who appears constitutionally incapable of real trust, real forgiveness, and real emotional intimacy with me. Why I failed or refused to recognize this before or soon after the marriage is for me to unravel, and for me to own.

Your welcome. Your on to something. Keep it going.

There will be very down and dark days, yet there is something I wished knew earlier which I will share.

The light at the end of the tunnel does not mean that life will become perfect and all your challenges will go away (fantasy only) rather what will happen is, unlike now - you will know that you have the free choice to make the right decisions, clarity of mind to overcome them and a healthy respect of yourself to not let it all get to you as it has in your marriage. The soontobeEX will always be around as long as your kids are under 18, but you will come to just giggle at her crazy vs letting it effect you.

Don't worry or focus too much on why you got into this in the first place. There will be a time for that. Once the FOG starts clearing (as little as 2 months after no-contact) you will start having a clear head looking back. But first you need to focus on yourself and getting safely away from her.

You can read it everyone on these boards and I can't stress it enough:  Exercise consistently, make ME time for you only, daily, weekly etc. start training yourself that what you want and what you care for always comes first.

I agree with you on Gettinbetter dot com, It what was i discovered at first (6 years ago) and was very helpful. Some people find her insensitive, but she minces no words and says it as it is. One things that sticks out in my memory was an article in which she says "Love is an ever-expanding sense of trust in another, along with admiration and respect for their character, attributes and qualities." something you likely never had with your wife. recognize that and there is little holding back

You may want to check out Shrink4men dot com which also some very clarifying articles a even some dry humor.

[insideout77]

These last two pages of posts have drilled right into my soul.  I could have written half of it because I lived it, but my writing would not be coherent.  I thank you all.

You have the directions and the desire now comes the hard part, put the car in drive and connect the engine(brain) to the wheels(action).

[Lucky Jim]

Fueled by commitment and duty and hope, I put myself into automatic and held on for dear life. When children arrived, I doubled-down, ignoring my instincts. My self-trust and self-confidence eroded, but I chalked that up to self-sacrifice for family stability. I had an ideal of marriage and of my children's happiness that made divorce the Great Satan. It was literally unthinkable to me.

Hey Mr. B, I did the same thing and followed the same compass points, until the wheels came off and I could go no further.  It all came unglued.  I was just pretending that things were OK.  :)eep down, I was miserable and couldn't admit to myself that I was in an abusive marriage.

I have to forgive myself. I had no idea that anything as profound as BPD existed, and I did love my wife and believed we would be soul mates.

Who knew?  I had never heard of BPD until 9 years into my marriage.  Yes, you do need to forgive yourself.  I thought my Ex and I were soul mates, too, until BPD proved too much for me.  For a while, I operated under the premise that I could break the BPD Code, which proved unrealistic.

LJ

[misterblister]

SECOND: Has she made threats like this before? Has she acted on them? Some pwBPD are very big on threats but never or seldom follow through. I don't know your wife.

She's done this about four times before (and talked about it more) but historically I patched things up in ways that I am sure in hindsight were unhealthy. Last time she did it, it was more preemptive due to me being depressed and mad at her for some crazy and incredibly hurtful behavior. She was clearly assuming I was leaving, and she took up battle stations.

This time her fuse was much shorter and I think the wildcard is her family, who is closer to her now, and who may be coaching her. I don't think they want to see her so unhappy. This could help or hurt things.

I wish we could part amicably and both recognize that despite much good and shared life together, the love part ain't workin' but pointing fingers won't help. That's where I am at. Heck, after me doing this for so long, if she simply treated me as nicely as she does the average stranger, I could probably continue living with her. I don't understand why it's so painful simply to be around her.

Custody and my children's mental health is my main concern. We have few assets left between us. I gave up hope long ago of ever saving money. Money conversations are impossible with her.

[Grey Kitty]

She's done this about four times before (and talked about it more) but historically I patched things up in ways that I am sure in hindsight were unhealthy. Last time she did it, it was more preemptive due to me being depressed and mad at her for some crazy and incredibly hurtful behavior. She was clearly assuming I was leaving, and she took up battle stations.

OK, given your history, I'd suggest you take a two-pronged approach:

1. Without tipping her off, make a legal plan for separation, divorce, and a custody battle. Consult lawyers, post on the family law board here, make sure you have your own bank accounts without her name on them so you are ready to transfer half the joint assets, and shut down joint credit lines in a hurry if you need to... .but don't pull the trigger without good advice and a good plan... .at least not until she does something similar and you need to protect your own interests.

2. I don't recommend starting a conversation with her about separation, but she may well bring the subject up again. I would be prepared to say something along these lines to her, if you are willing to work on the marriage longer with her:

I don't want to separate from you, but I cannot stop you from leaving. I love you and I'll miss you terribly, but I recognize that it is your choice.

(You can both love her and believe that she's tearing you apart at the same time, so that doesn't have to be untrue in any way... .and you know that sharing truths about how she's hurting you aren't going to have any good results in either your marriage or your divorce!)

[misterblister]

My wife spent a few days sleeping in another room after the separation threat. She cold shouldered me for a while but never spoke about it again and never apologized. She now seems back to "semi-normal" leaving me as confused as ever.

I don't understand why my love is not enough for her to open her heart and eyes to her behavior, recognize it as harmful and abnormal, and seek help? I've given so much of my life for her. My vows still mean something, but I cannot love a partner who will not trust me or forgive me, or who appears to experience an entirely different reality and assumes the worst about me. Even if she cannot trust me, why won't she do it for the children's sake?

My children want to see me take Mom out on more dates and show more affection. I feel almost physically incapable of this under these circumstances. I cannot fake it, nor can I say things like, "Even though you insulted me, rejected my apology, and never apologized yourself, I can't help but do everything I can to make you feel loved and cherished."

Is this because I'm a flawed person/spouse? Thing is, if I could manage that, I'd feel that much more humiliated and guilty of normalizing her behavior for my children.

There must be some secret phrase or gesture I can muster that will make her feel safe to self-examine and consider the terrifying possibility that she is sabotaging any chance of closeness between us? Surely some BPD sufferers do become self-aware?

Despite all my confusion, something is changing in me. It's like my toes are touching the cold deep end of the pool for the first time. I don't quite trust it, but at the same time I seem to be able to tread water there. I look about and see shimmers of hope, and once in a great while I taste a splash of true happiness of a sort I've not felt since my wedding day.

I suspect I'm slowly growing stronger and wiser, and learning to let go.

[BeagleGirl]

There must be some secret phrase or gesture I can muster that will make her feel safe to self-examine and consider the terrifying possibility that she is sabotaging any chance of closeness between us? Surely some BPD sufferers do become self-aware?

Misterblister,

If you find that phrase, LICENSE IT!  You will be a millionaire. 

All kidding aside, I have asked myself this question over and over.  I started asking it LONG before I had even heard of BPD.  I think I've been asking it for about 24 years in some form.  The answer, as far as I can tell, is "There is a chance that they could change, but you have NO power to effect this".  This is the pesky free will that is imbued in each of us and those of us who believe in God believe that even He has no ability to MAKE us do anything.  So if God can't do it, good luck.

So next question is WHY?  Why would someone choose a path of destruction when offered paradise?  As Dr. Phil and my therapist (and probably plenty of other people) say "There must be some payoff in it for them".  About all we can do is remove any payoff that we are personally giving them for the destructive behavior.  The rest is up to them.  We can woo them, but they have to choose. 

Since my faith is a key part of how I see the world and choose to interact with my BPDh, I have been studying (with help from my pastor and Christian therapist) the relationship that I am supposed to model -
 the relationship God has with us.  The thing that I've been trying to learn is that the God I believe in, a God of infinite love, does not chase the ones He loves.  He does not change who He is or His standards to make it easier for them to be in relationship with Him.  He is who He is and offers paradise to those who choose to move towards Him and be in relationship with Him.  I don't know if that is helpful to you, but it is what I hold onto when I feel like I need to DO something to fix the relationship.  I remind myself that if God can't force me (or anyone else) stop doing destructive things and love Him, then why waste my time trying to do something that God can't.

[Grey Kitty]

There must be some secret phrase or gesture I can muster that will make her feel safe to self-examine and consider the terrifying possibility that she is sabotaging any chance of closeness between us? Surely some BPD sufferers do become self-aware?

That 'quest' is something that keeps you stuck in this cycle with her. As long as you are chasing after this, you are working hard to keep BOTH of you stuck in this.

You are correct--she doesn't feel safe. You are correct--what she does when she doesn't feel safe sabotages your marriage and closeness between the two of you.

And she does tell you that you are doing it wrong, that it is your fault, and she probably believes it. She's not correct about that part, and it is time for you to stop believing it. (Without trying to convince her, 'tho. That would just be JADEing all over the place... .)

Instead, there is an emotional black hole of need inside her... .and it will suck up and absorb anything you pour into it, without changing, at most a brief pause as what you throw in is consumed. Nothing will change until/unless she works on this from the inside.

Unfortunately, if you continue trying to fill that void (the way you have been, at least), she won't even start to look for ways to deal with the real problem... .or even look for better coping mechanisms than using you as an emotional punching bag.

It is really hard, but the best thing you can do is to remove yourself from that position when she attacks you like this. In your case, since there is already talk about/threats of separation, making a change like this will probably result in more of them, and could result in her acting on them.

[Lucky Jim]

I look about and see shimmers of hope, and once in a great while I taste a splash of true happiness of a sort I've not felt since my wedding day.

Hey Mister B, Those "shimmers of hope" sound encouraging, yet don't lose sight of the BPD cycle.  A dark cloud can appear out of a clear blue sky.  Periods of relative tranquility tend to be followed by turmoil and drama, so be prepared to use your Tools.  Forewarned is forearmed! 

LuckyJim

[SamwizeGamgee]

About those glimmers or hope, or those memories of the good old days... .
If you read about the abuse cycle, there are periods of good (otherwise why would a victim stay?).  During that time, there might be remorse and apologies for the past episode, or it might be a more sinister pathological intent to lure the victim back.  However I don't think that really applies to BPD in every case.  I would guess that pwBPD don't really have remorse for their past behavior, nor do they calculate that it's time to be nice to get you back.  I believe that they just don't think beyond the moment and the occupying feelings they have.  They may regret getting mad or bad, but I really don't think it's something they feel responsible enough to apologize for.

That said, the abuse cycle works fine for them.  They are bad, doesn't matter. They are good and we stay. 

One thing I do, and this has cooled off my relationship immensely (for better and worse), is to keep in mind the whole person.  When I see my wife on a bad day, I try to balance it with looking for the good, when I see her on a good day, I respectfully remember that all is not as it seems, and remember the rages and black abyss of her heart.   Might not be the most positive marriage advice, which should probably say something like always look on the bright side.  But, keeping in mind the dangers of the person I married, keeps me on safer and saner ground. 

[insideout77]

I don't understand why my love is not enough for her to open her heart and eyes to her behavior, recognize it as harmful and abnormal, and seek help? I've given so much of my life for her. My vows still mean something, but I cannot love a partner who will not trust me or forgive me, or who appears to experience an entirely different reality and assumes the worst about me. Even if she cannot trust me, why won't she do it for the children's sake?

 Surely some BPD sufferers do become self-aware?

, and learning to let go.

My Friend,

 read your post. your going in Circles...  

 A BPD doesn't do anything for the kids sake ever. you have given so much of your life for her...  when are you going to cut your losses? when are you going to put half the investment in you that you put in her?  when will you step up for your kids. they need you and as hard as this is a living hell, the kids don't know different and will never have a chance if you don't jump into the deep end to and protect them. its their only chance.

I honestly don't know what to say,  been there and done that and I know that when your in the FOG you can fathom what its like outside the FOG...  its like trying to describe Chocolate to someone who hasn't ever tasted it.    

just know while you wait for the right moment to finally get rolling, that motivation does not come first, rather Motivation comes after you take action. People that wait for motivation in life never get it. Courage is a muscle and by working through your fear and anxiety, you can build it over time!

hugs

  

[insideout77]

Misterblister,



So next question is WHY?  Why would someone choose a path of destruction when offered paradise? 

What I believe your missing here is, chaos IS paradise for a BPD. Thats what they live for and thrive on. Its all the they know.  They think they have it and your the one missing out.

On a God note:  I think many Clergy totally do not understand the issue's of BPD etc and preach love and acceptance etc... .I'm pretty sure they wouldn't do that if a person was being physically abused.  Its a shame as often they are in way over their head.

 I'm not saying you suggested that, but as a Rabbi I'm semi qualified to comment :-)

[misterblister]

Thank you all for your wisdom and encouragement. Since your replies my wife packed a suitcase and is staying with family after I offended her again (which was just another layer atop the kitchen sink pile). The pattern lately seems to be:

1. She splits or says something very hurtful to me.
2. I limp away but try to apologize and mend.
3. She refuses to mend or apologize.
4. I withdraw and tiptoe, which she perceives as being mean or neglecting her.
5. She splits again.

The difference now is my tolerance for #1 and #3 is fading. Like literally the tank is almost empty.

I will try to reply to all since my last post.

@BeagleGirl: I appreciate you sharing your story. You seem to have found something I could not. My wife wants us to be a happy church-going family. Over the years I could no longer stand pretending to be that, tagging behind to church on mornings she wouldn't even talk to me or forgive me, so we can all sit down and hear a sermon on forgiveness. It sickened me to think my children were learning that was normal. We also tried pastoral counseling early on and my experience was the burden was entirely on me to make my wife happy and my household peaceful. If she wasn't, it was my spiritual failing. As @insideout77 pointed out, my experience is that most pastors are clueless about profound disorders like BPD. Since then my faith river seems to have dried to a trickle, and I'm sure this is part of why she's feeling less secure with me than ever.

@GreyKitty: Your description of the "emotional black hole" really helped me gain my distance and look at this from the outside. It's just so unnatural feeling to look at my partner of so many years and see this "thing" that they do not, and realize I can't make her see it nor can I fix it.

@Lucky Jim & @SamwizeGamgee: I was not clear when I wrote about shimmers and happiness. What I was really talking about was realizing I could survive a separation/divorce and maybe--just maybe--thrive in life again before old age takes me down. I never imagined it being survivable (much less thriveable!) before.

@SamwizeGamgee: I do try to keep the whole person in mind. I wish I could tolerate her refusal to apologize or forgive. I am guessing if I could stomach it, she would be happier and my kids would be happier. Maybe this is me failing to apply true forgiveness, but I feel I'll just lower myself closer to the ground and make it easier for her to kick me the next time she splits.

@insideout77: I cannot stomach that my wife doesn't do things for the kid's sake. I know she loves them. She is "high functioning" but I can say when she's splitting, all bets are off and she can hurt them and be seemingly unaware of the effects of her behavior.

You comment about "chaos IS paradise" does ring somewhat true for me. She seems happiest when she's just split and I'm bent over in pain and she is somehow "safe" at that point. Not sure what the internals of that are, but it's been a consistent pattern. What really seems to upset her is genuine closeness and normalcy approaching. One thing that increasingly bothers me now that I think about it is that I don't recall ever seeing any genuine remorse from her for hurting me. It's hard to reconcile that with someone you believe is an overall good person. I have to believe she genuinely despises me at some primal level.

@all: Had my wife left the house 10 years ago I would have had a mental breakdown. Recently I am much stronger but in some Zen-like way. Realizing I can only really control myself has freed me. It's very difficult maintaining that levelheadedness when I know I am being misunderstood, falsely accused and misjudged by her and her family, but it's also freeing. It seems like a path I can walk.

Your comments on this board have been vital to this growth. I don't seem to learn much from reading books but when I get answers in the context of my own situation, it can be profoundly helpful.

I don't know what is coming but I'm going to try my best to keep my powder dry, avoid doing things I'll regret, and be a good role model for my children.

[SamwizeGamgee]

Quick aside about faith and organized religion: @MB: I think I get it when you say you feel sick going to church and trying to be "normal" for the kids and others to see.  

I got and stayed married, most of all, out of a sense of religious dogma. I actually broke off what was, in hindsight, my best relationship ever with a girl since we were of different faiths.  And, it's not that I felt the need to be right, rather, I wanted to respect her need to fully follow her faith, and be herself.  I really loved her, and didn't want her to have to change or feel she should.  How bizarre.  So, I soon found a girl of my faith, and I blindly went on "Faith" - after getting some really damaging advice that two people equally dedicated to God can make a happy marriage. I used religion-in-common as a rubber stamp over the red flags.  I stayed, and stayed, and still stay, in spite of all the pain, and quiet internal sadness.  I have since gotten to the point that I consider myself spiritual - and I understand, and truly believe, parts of my religion, but, I no longer feel like a "company man" when it comes to religion. I attend and teach at church, and importantly, I feel that I understand compassion, suffering, love, and God, a whole lot more because of my marriage.  This hard marriage - maybe that was it's purpose after all.  But, I can't back up all the beliefs anymore.  I cannot look someone in the eyes and say marriage is good, or ordained of God anymore.  
I've become a self-appointed Judeo-Christian Pagan Buddhist and I'm making out better this way.  
Misterblister, I get it. My wife still sees me as the problem. Sorry you have to go through this.  And if I dare say, I think we are both a whole lot stronger than we were many years ago.  

End of last year I went to counsel with my clergy.  At this point I had found my peace with what to tell God.  I was looking for more than anything to advise my clergyman of my situation rather than ask for guidance.  I expected the usual boiler plate responses of "pray together, let God heal you, ask for forgiveness," etc.  But to my surprise he said that my situation sounded serious, and God does not want us to be hurt or so unhappy.  He also astutely recognized that this was not his field of expertise.  I respected that.  So, there are clergy out there who understand that other people got PhDs in psychology for a reason

[insideout77]

[javascript:void(0);quote author=misterblister link=topic=304722.msg12876373#msg12876373 date=1497146347]
Thank you all for your wisdom and encouragement. Since your replies my wife packed a suitcase and is staying with family after I offended her again (which was just another layer atop the kitchen sink pile).

[/quote]

OH MY ...    if you have your LAWYER...   now is your chance , FILE NOW, assuming kids are home and she moved and try to KEEP HER OUT...   the turkey is on the table...   much easier if she left the home already!

@religion...    HAHA can relate...  my Ex is/was a saint, ofcourse it all fell on me to fix and mend my ways.

@hates you ...  she doesn't hate you at all... She simply doesn't think about you . She is singularly focused on her and her perfect image to the exclusion of everyone around her, kids and you included.   As I saw elsewhere a great quote "she lives in a Narco-dome, This is like a bio-dome into which reality cannot permeate"

You may not know how people will respond and its not your problem , You can know whats Coming, take charge of your destiny by putting one foot always in front of the other.  To use a running analogy, if you start the marathon and think about miles 23-26 you will be exhausted in the first hour and won't be able to move forward...  goal is to focus on the present , and only the step your actually doing and the general direction you are going, what you will actually find around each corner, you will discover when you get there.  

To some extent you likely don't trust yourself to make big decisions. The little secret is, the only way you ever will is when you start making them and realize that you can. Courage is like a muscle. You must use it and exercise it to make it strong. Get out and start strong!

[insideout77]

Quick aside about faith and organized religion: @MB: I think I get it when you say you feel sick going to church and trying to be "normal" for the kids and others to see.  

I got and stayed married, most of all, out of a sense of religious dogma. I actually broke off what was, in hindsight, my best relationship ever with a girl since we were of different faiths.  And, it's not that I felt the need to be right, rather, I wanted to respect her need to fully follow her faith, and be herself.  I really loved her, and didn't want her to have to change or feel she should.  How bizarre.  So, I soon found a girl of my faith, and I blindly went on "Faith" - after getting some really damaging advice that two people equally dedicated to God can make a happy marriage. I used religion-in-common as a rubber stamp over the red flags.  I stayed, and stayed, and still stay, in spite of all the pain, and quiet internal sadness.  I have since gotten to the point that I consider myself spiritual - and I understand, and truly believe, parts of my religion, but, I no longer feel like a "company man" when it comes to religion. I attend and teach at church, and importantly, I feel that I understand compassion, suffering, love, and God, a whole lot more because of my marriage.  This hard marriage - maybe that was it's purpose after all.  But, I can't back up all the beliefs anymore.  I cannot look someone in the eyes and say marriage is good, or ordained of God anymore.  
I've become a self-appointed Judeo-Christian Pagan Buddhist and I'm making out better this way.  
Misterblister, I get it. My wife still sees me as the problem. Sorry you have to go through this.  And if I dare say, I think we are both a whole lot stronger than we were many years ago.  

Maybe Judaism is just different b/c there is divorce and its clearly built into the system. We are human and and if anyone understands the Crappy marriage we have had its God. If he doesn't get it and cut us some slack then what is his purpose in the first place.

Essentially saying: If god is like a father/mother, then he loves us like a father/mother and the love can't change no matter what we do. If we make bad choices or we get stuck in a quagmire like many of us have, his love doesn't change and if anything he gives us the biggest pass of all.  

Not to turn this into philosophical discussion but im sure there are many parallels in all religions to some extent.  In Jewish legal literature there is a discussion about what to do if someone is face with a life & death decision and it entails violating the Sabbath. The Legal conclusion says: That since saving your life & violating this Sabbath means that you will be able to keep MANY more Sabbath's in the future,  it is clearly a worthwhile investment. :-)    My point here is: Don't worry so much about God and your spiritual connection right now, let God worry about it. You focus on YOU and your kids and get all of you to a healthy and secure space, there is no question in my mind that God will be smiling & watching  you the whole way as you come to visit as a happier and healthy person!

[SamwizeGamgee]

@insideout77 - I married a saint too.  Maybe I shouldn't have aimed so high :/

I like the running analogy.  Running is my thing.  I know also that when you're done, you're done.  No energy drinks or pep talks can put back the energy and get you back running, when you have hit a certain point of exhaustion.  I think that once we reach that point, we may not know it right away, but, it becomes clear.  We can't take one more step. It's time to stop, rest, recover, and run again another day.  In a race, you enter and didn't cross the finish line, the official rating is DNF (Did Not Finish).  I think it's not good, but, it happens even to the best runners.  I think my marriage is looking like a DNF.

[insideout77]

@insideout77 - I married a saint too.  Maybe I shouldn't have aimed so high :/

I like the running analogy.  Running is my thing.  I know also that when you're done, you're done.  No energy drinks or pep talks can put back the energy and get you back running, when you have hit a certain point of exhaustion.  I think that once we reach that point, we may not know it right away, but, it becomes clear.  We can't take one more step. It's time to stop, rest, recover, and run again another day.  In a race, you enter and didn't cross the finish line, the official rating is DNF (Did Not Finish).  I think it's not good, but, it happens even to the best runners.  I think my marriage is looking like a DNF.

thats awesome ! I Started running 6 years ago and it saved my life and got me where I am today.  Now im dreaming of a BQ in Oct.

I strongly disagree with you on your DNF...   all of us on this board are cheering for you at mile 23, and we on this thread are jumping on board the course to pace you through the last 3 hard miles. But only you can actually run the miles, if we carry you , then you will be stuck with the DNF.   The finish line is in sight and there is LOADS of great food in the hospitality tent! lets roll!  The medal will be the smiles on your kids faces in 20 years all because you had the courage to save them from this madness

[SamwizeGamgee]

Insideout77 - I'll follow your tangent, and apologize for going off topic.  Ironically, the girl I spoke about, [and I'm speculating based on all the information I have, that I'd never have needed to consider divorcing] is Jewish.  Alas.  

There is a provision in Christianity that I read now as an accommodation for divorce, based not in the selfishness and sinful nature of the abuser, but, rather for the relief and rescue of the victim.  It's a doctrinal thing I missed for far too long.  I just was dogmatically against my own divorce.  Somehow, I completely accepted other's divorces and understood - I just couldn't see myself in the same compassionate way.  


I'll side with you on the viewpoint you share on divorce, and most of all with God loving us, and knowing perfectly how much we suffer.  I thank you, and value your point of view.  It's what I feel is right.  I'll include that in my Judeo-Christian Pagan Buddhist reflections.

Lol.  More apologies to BM for taking this tangent,  and for "running" with it.  I think I can look at this marriage-marathon, as a DNF.  Trying will kill me.  As for the greater "finish line" I can make it.  I might not see how, but I do hear the cheering.   

[insideout77]

Lol.  More apologies to BM for taking this tangent,  and for "running" with it.  I think I can look at this marriage-marathon, as a DNF.  Trying will kill me.  As for the greater "finish line" I can make it.  I might not see how, but I do hear the cheering.   

the issues your missing is that your marriage isn't the marathon, your LIFE is the marathon! Your marriage is just some Rocky really steep uphill climb. Let go of that past thinking... this is NOT your life, its just a part of your story. you have soo much possible joy and resulting happiness around the corner and you must run there to get it.

[Grey Kitty]

In a race, you enter and didn't cross the finish line, the official rating is DNF (Did Not Finish).  I think it's not good, but, it happens even to the best runners.  I think my marriage is looking like a DNF.

This is my view, and I'm unaware of any religion which supports it, but as I see it, marriage doesn't have a finish line, and end point where you "win" or even get a formal score, like a race does...

That would be like saying that it doesn't matter what you do in your marriage, how you treat your partner... .but marriage is defined to be a "success" if it ends because at least one of you died, and a "failure" if you end the relationship in some way that doesn't involve death.

My parents have been married over 50 years. I cannot imagine their marriage ending any other way than death. And there are *SOME* aspects of how they treat each other that I would be truly horrified if I found myself putting up with them for months/years or especially decades! I'm not calling their marriage a failure because of that either... .I'm just saying that if I was living in it, I wouldn't accept it as good enough to call it a success either.

(I'm done with this digression; back to helping MB in more specific ways)

Since your replies my wife packed a suitcase and is staying with family after I offended her again (which was just another layer atop the kitchen sink pile).

That's not completely bad... .I'm assuming that you aren't being subjected to a constant firehose soaking of blame, anger, and bile over your phone while she's gone. (If you are, time to turn it off, block her, etc.) and (if your kids are there), you get to be a good father without an obstacle.

OTOH, I'm betting that her FOO is quite a piece of work, and most likely their influence isn't good for her mental health or encouraging her to make good choices... .

The really good part is that you let her go and be with her feelings/mood, instead of chasing after her. Is this new progress for you?

Not sure what the internals of that are, but it's been a consistent pattern. What really seems to upset her is genuine closeness and normalcy approaching.

The nature of BPD is to be driven crazy by both a fear of abandonment and a fear of engulfment. There *IS* no comfortable, safe place between the two--instead, it is like balancing on the edge of a razor... .and the result is that at one moment she's driven by the fear of abandonment... .and reacts badly, pulling you closer... .then with intimacy, the fear of engulfment takes over, and she reacts badly (again), driving you away or running away... .until the fear of abandonment takes over again... .

And the more YOU react to her push-pull, the worse the cycle will be. The more you stay in your center, leaving her to her own crazy feelings and reactions, the shorter and milder the cycle is.

One thing that increasingly bothers me now that I think about it is that I don't recall ever seeing any genuine remorse from her for hurting me. It's hard to reconcile that with someone you believe is an overall good person. I have to believe she genuinely despises me at some primal level.

My experience has been that the genuine hatred is directed inward, not at you. ('Tho the lashing out at you when she blames you for her own feelings and thinks you 'deserve' it is genuine, at least at the time it happens)

The lack of genuine remorse or a genuine apology is also typical of the disorder. And she really has limited capacity to do this. Perhaps NONE, unless she has some real moments of clarity, which some self-aware pwBPD do have. In order to feel remorse or apologize, she has to have empathy and actually understand the hurt you felt. Her own feelings are loudly screaming at her, and she's trying to run away from them, really hard... .and this just doesn't leave her any room to be able to understand that you have feelings of your own. Instead, she's projecting onto you and blaming you for having these awful feelings she doesn't want to acknowledge, and hurting you for it because you 'deserve' it for having those awful feelings.

For years, I got apologies which weren't didn't help. They were mostly "I'm sorry I'm such a horrible person." or "I'm sorry you feel 'X'." Never "I'm sorry I hurt you by doing 'Y'".


Understanding this does help you not take the bad behavior personally--since it really has very little to do with you. It can help you use better tools, and improve your marriage. And there is one silver lining in that--when you stop participating in her messed up dynamics the way you used to, they stop working for her as coping mechanisms the way they used to. That is very likely to drive her to find a new way of coping than what she was doing.

It is her choice, and she has two general paths: 1--Leave you and find somebody else who will ride the dysfunctional roller coaster with her the way you used to... .2--Pick some healthier coping mechanisms, ones that will let her heal a bit, and stay with you in a healthier (albeit still far from perfect!) marriage.

You don't have the ability to choose her path... .your choice is whether you stay in the current mess, accepting abuse, and make certain she won't ever have to chose... .or stand up to the abuse, disconnect from her insanity and let her make her own choice.

[misterblister]

Can anyone recommend resources here and elsewhere for coping during this phase? I do have Stop Walking on Eggshells.

This is the first time in my marriage where I feel strong enough to have boundaries and enforce them, but I am clumsy at it. Paradoxically (though not to people here), it's making my marriage worse, not better. But I feel better and stronger.

I know that I cannot continue the passive dysfunctional way, but I still don't want this marriage to end. I can forgive my wife and love her if she'll let me and if she'll forgive me. I think this is what pains my oldest child so much too, because she knows things aren't that bad so why can we just kiss and make up.

It feels just an inch away from me. I am ready to do it. But when I reach out, it's a chasm of confusion, pain and contradiction from her that tangles me up. It has been for ~14 years, and I almost accept deep down that it won't change.

I think what I am asking is he how can I be healthy during this? That means strong, vulnerable, honest, fair to myself, my wife, and my children.

There might come a time for No More Mr Nice Guy in order to protect my children and myself, but until then I want my children to see a strong and kind father, and a husband who has tried hard and taken risks.

Also, if you have any advice for marital counseling, please let me know. Past experiences taught me it is a platform to accuse me and paint herself as a victim. I get tangled up and deflated simply defending myself. There must be some way I can communicate my side without falling into that trap, that will hopefully help the counselor correct the steering wheel.

You've probably all told me things already that will help but I'm a slow learner. The fog is thick right now.

[Lucky Jim]

Hey Mr. B, Do you have your own T?  That helped me more than marital counseling, to be honest.  I pretended a lot in my marriage, in part because it felt like I was walking through a mine field (I find that more descriptive than walking on eggshells!).  Now I strive to be authentic, and suggest the same for you.  I also suggest learning to love and accept yourself, just the way you are.  I'm human, and so are you, and it's a good thing to accept that one is less than perfect.  If you love yourself, in my view, you won't put up with abuse, which is why I suggest learning to love yourself first and foremost.  Boundaries, in my view, flow from self-acceptance and self-love.

LuckyJim

[SamwizeGamgee]

I'm so sorry that you are in this spot, misterblister.  The old joke goes that it takes just one psychologist to change a light bulb, but the light bulb has to want to change.  That was just a joke to me until a few years ago, when I realized how potent that idea is.  On that same note, we all want to change, or want something around us to change.  How to do that though, is very individual.  

While most BPD personality traits all have some things in common, and perhaps a few critical causes, each expression is individual.  Therefore, our own path of coping and recovering can be individual too.  You asked about reading.  Learning about BPD was one thing.  I read about BPD in books like "I Hate You, Don't Leave Me" and recently one important one was "Understanding the Borderline Mother."  

In addition to learning about BPD, which might help on a cerebral level, I found I just plain needed to heal and get better.  Books that are invaluable to me include: "The Emotionally Abusive Relationship" by Engle; "The Verbally Abusive Relationship" by Evans; "Stop Caretaking the Borderline or Narcissist" by Fjelstad; "Emotional Blackmail" by forward.  These books were for me the individual help I needed to recognize abuse.  By being aware, I was able to direct my life better, and identify what went on.  A warning though, like the proverbial Red Pill in the Matrix movie, once you see the abuse and dysfuntion, and you see your wife as a hurt, fearful, angry, abuser, you can't really un-see it.

For my healing path, I doubled down on distance running, as well as getting back to some old hobbies that get me out and with other people.  That's healthy.  Books that have touched me and became a lifeline for me have been "The Gifts of Imperfection" by Brown, and "Radical Acceptance" by Brach. Actually, anything Buddhist helps me.  Ironically, my religion isn't a big help, since it advocates marriage and family so dogmatically and one-sided.

Just a side commercial for male depression awareness.  I think any guy living for very long with a BPD wife should be aware of it.  I found "I Don't Want to Talk About It" by Real, to be a truly inspiring book, and perspective.  Required reading in my opinion.

I also read a metric ton of books about kids and divorce, but that is a subject all on its own.  
I recently started MC - not for hope of saving the marriage - if that happens it would be a by-product.  Rather, I am trying to establish good working relationships for a divorce and co-parenting at worst and a better working marriage at best.

[Grey Kitty]

LJ's suggestion of individual T for you instead of couples T is an excellent one.

And if she resists you going to individual T... .you could point out that you know you need help to do the right things in your marriage, and that is exactly what you are trying to do.

Hard for her to argue with that 

But *IF* you do it, make it clear that your individual T for you, and is between you and the T, and won't be discussed with her. Refuse to go there with her. Nothing good is likely t come from "My therapist said... ." with her.

[Lucky Jim]

I echo GK: make it clear that individual T is for the benefit of your marriage, but that it has to be private between you and the T in order to work.  Don't give her any opening to participate in the process, is my suggestion.  LJ

[misterblister]

Fantastic advice, all! Taking it all and running with it. Affording a T will be tough. Have to make MC a priority for now, but I definitely need a T. Wish I had done it 10 years ago. Regrets... .

I'm sure you know how much your advice means to somebody in my situation. There must be countless souls without therapists out there who never got the "ah hah" spark that led them to search out resources like this. Sharing your hard-earned wisdom is priceless--even sanity-saving--to those who find it.

Who knows, if I come out the right end of the tunnel I may become a wise old soul myself.