Furious and looking for a reality check.

[Depression = 72% of members]

i'm feeling pretty furious and thinking about writing a message to the organizers of a meditation retreat i attended. The theme was using meditation to overcome feelings of anxiety and depression. The 'teacher', a white women in a buddhist robe, instructed us that depression was a choice, that it arose from our negative karma, and our selfishness. I already have had many harmful experiences around being shamed and guilt tripped around meditation- and my lack of meditation being used to justify someone's harmful, abusive and traumatic mistreatment of me. I am human, and I am imperfect, and yes at times I can be negative and harmful to others. Yet no one deserves abuse, assault, or to be violated. Not one regardless of their moments of selfishness or negative action should tolerate anyone mistreating them. If anything my self sacrificing and selflessness had been taken advantage of and caused me harm.

I think that the root and foundation of healing from depression, abuse, trauma, etc is self forgiveness, self acceptance and self compassion. That guilt and shame are the things that leave us wounded, isolating, and prevent us from making progress. I felt that the message sent at the retreat was counter to was is needed for healing.

I do believe that empathy, compassion, unconditional positive regard, and mindfulness are key to living a loving and kind life- to be loving and kind to ourselves first so we can offer that to others. I don't feel like the messages conveyed at the retreat support that.

I wonder if my anger is rooted in a reality in which the messages that were conveyed are inherently harmful, or if I'm being triggered of feeling furious and associating this entire topic of mindfulness with a toxic spin based on what I experienced with my personality disordered ex.

[tin]

i'm feeling pretty furious and thinking about writing a message to the organizers of a meditation retreat i attended. The theme was using meditation to overcome feelings of anxiety and depression. The 'teacher', a white women in a buddhist robe, instructed us that depression was a choice, that it arose from our negative karma, and our selfishness. I already have had many harmful experiences around being shamed and guilt tripped around meditation- and my lack of meditation being used to justify someone's harmful, abusive and traumatic mistreatment of me. I am human, and I am imperfect, and yes at times I can be negative and harmful to others. Yet no one deserves abuse, assault, or to be violated. Not one regardless of their moments of selfishness or negative action should tolerate anyone mistreating them. If anything my self sacrificing and selflessness had been taken advantage of and caused me harm.

I think that the root and foundation of healing from depression, abuse, trauma, etc is self forgiveness, self acceptance and self compassion. That guilt and shame are the things that leave us wounded, isolating, and prevent us from making progress. I felt that the message sent at the retreat was counter to was is needed for healing.

I do believe that empathy, compassion, unconditional positive regard, and mindfulness are key to living a loving and kind life- to be loving and kind to ourselves first so we can offer that to others. I don't feel like the messages conveyed at the retreat support that.

I wonder if my anger is rooted in a reality in which the messages that were conveyed are inherently harmful, or if I'm being triggered of feeling furious and associating this entire topic of mindfulness with a toxic spin based on what I experienced with my personality disordered ex.

[tin]

To clarify I feel like the assumption and implication in her message was that depression arises from our own wrong doing. And I don't feel that is the case. I think we do have the power to leave, to set boundaries (even with people who are incapable of abiding by them), and we have the power to heal. We have the power to take on healthier habits. To eat healthy nourishing food, cultivate healthy nourishing relationships, to live healthy, active nourishing lifestyles. But sometimes we are harmed and there are emotional consequences. Sometimes just being more and more selfless doesn't do us any good, and in fact does us harm. Sometimes the chemicals in our brain wear us down, tire us out, mislead us, and drain us of our motivations. Sometimes the experiences we survive leave us in a place of needing a great deal of healing. And that the solution is not to simply become less selfish. Sometimes we need to remember how to be selfish. How to care about ourselves first and foremost, so we can be our best version of ourselves and be of benefit to others in the long term, in a sustainable way. Yes behaving selfishly and harming others can impact our mental health and emotional health negatively. But we are all imperfect. We will all have times where we are tired, triggered, angry, emotional, and lash out. That does not mean we are deserving of depression, anxiety or mental illness. In fact the way to become more resilient and recover is to forgive ourselves. To acknowledge we are more than our behaviors and accomplishments and ability to abide by our values and principles 24/7. Being kinder to ourselves will help us to cultivate and develop our capacity to do better. Not guilt and shame. Guilt and shame do the reverse.

I'm really struggling with the emotional ties from my ex around all things related to self care, health, and healing. He weaponized these tools to be used against me, and I am working through reclaiming them back in a gentler, kinder, and more self-accepting way. But I just felt like the messages conveyed are harmful and that I wonder how it impacted all the other people at the retreat. And whether others found them to be painful, and damaging.

[once removed]

I wonder if my anger is rooted in a reality in which the messages that were conveyed are inherently harmful, or if I'm being triggered of feeling furious and associating this entire topic of mindfulness with a toxic spin based on what I experienced with my personality disordered ex.

i dont like black and white messages either. i dont believe "depression is a choice". grates on my nerves. medically inaccurate.

it does sound like the message struck a nerve. i can understand why. at the same time, i have to ask, is "depression is a choice" the same thing as saying someone deserves abuse, assault, that youre a bad person?

I'm really struggling with the emotional ties from my ex around all things related to self care, health, and healing. He weaponized these tools to be used against me,

what happened here?

[tin]

i dont like black and white messages either. i dont believe "depression is a choice". grates on my nerves. medically inaccurate.

it does sound like the message struck a nerve. i can understand why. at the same time, i have to ask, is "depression is a choice" the same thing as saying someone deserves abuse, assault, that youre a bad person?

what happened here?

Yes good questions.

I feel like saying "your depression is your choice" is placing the blame and responsibility on the victim of an abusive situation for their pain- because I felt my unhappiness in my relationship, it was my fault (and of course I was blamed and told it was my fault). I think this prevented me from seeing the ways the relationship was emotionally abusive and unhealthy. I kept trying to communicate and set boundaries etc for years and years of my life before finally coming out of the fog and learning about BPD, NPD, emotional abuse, etc. were applicable in my situation. Before I realized that regardless what I do or try I would be subject to the highs and lows, extremes in idealization and being demonized.

I also feel like it's a dangerous message because it makes it seem like being 'selfless' is always the right way to go. I was overly selfless and self sacrificing. I shouldn't have been so selfless in the relationship, it was taken advantage of and caused serious damage in my life and well being.

 I guess because my ex knew about my goals around self care, and that I wasn't always 100% on them, he would take advantage of those insecurities to blame me for his behaviors and actions. If he was verbally and emotionally abusive and I would get upset it was always 'my fault'- because I wasn't meditating enough, healthy enough, practicing enough self care- that made him angry and frustrated and him feeling that way was his justification for mistreating me.

There are various causes of depression. Being selfish could be one of them. Being overly empathetic, selfless and catering towards others could be unhealthy too. Because there are unhealthy people out there who willfully take advantage of that. I felt like the messages around mindfulness that my ex (a mental health therapist, meditation teacher etc) utilized to groom me. If I had a complaint, or wanted to be treated better, etc I was told I needed to be more accepting, forgiving, unconditional positive regard, compassionate, etc. Twisting my values and goals around mindfulness to suit his needs and keep me entrapped in the abusive dynamic.

All the 'shoulds' and shaming around self care and being belittled and insulted and blamed around my goals made it even harder to focus on myself. To have enough self worth and self acceptance to believe I was deserving of my own time, energy and attention. And to not feel my motivation coming from a place of self loathing- unless I practice 100% healthy practices I am not worthwhile, in alignment with my goals, or something.

I'm not even quite sure why I'm so angry and I am kind of rambling nonsensically trying to work through whether or not my anger is justified and if I should say something to the meditation center about the messages they are putting out to people seeking helpful tools to overcome depression and anxiety.

I've spoken to my therapist about feeling these associations between my goals around improving my health and self care routines, and the repeated attacks from my ex on the topic. Him shaming and judging, rejecting, and harming me around those topics. But I still feel the same and struggle with cultivating self compassion and self acceptance.

[Skip]

Sounds like it was not a very rewarding session... .

The 'teacher', a white women in a buddhist robe

I assume the implication is that you were expecting a tibetan buddhist monk?    There are many trained meditation instructors who are operating at a level significantly below that of a monk, but are qualified to instruct. I would look more to the background of her training to evaluate her credentials.

... .instructed us that depression was a choice, that it arose from our negative karma, and our selfishness.

Not knowing what was said (or defending it), I will say two things. Therapy and retreats like this are very different. Therapy is compassionate - at time too compassionate - everything is OK. Faith based support tends to be more, stand strong, lean into it, let your faith guide you.  Behavioral therapy is in the middle.

You might want to try that. CBT. They will push you. And they will tell you that the way out of depression is to push yourself out - that we have full control over it.

Yet no one deserves abuse, assault, or to be violated. Not one regardless of their moments of selfishness or negative action should tolerate anyone mistreating them. If anything my self sacrificing and selflessness had been taken advantage of and caused me harm.

Do you think it is helpful to separate "depression" and "anxiety" from the deeds and events that cause it? Grabing depression and fighting your way out has no bearing on what caused it or if it was fair - it decouples it (all Behavior therapies do) from the wounding event and pushed you to focus and deal with your reaction to the event.

Does that make sense?

[once removed]

I feel like saying "your depression is your choice" is placing the blame and responsibility on the victim of an abusive situation for their pain- because I felt my unhappiness in my relationship, it was my fault (and of course I was blamed and told it was my fault).
... .
I also feel like it's a dangerous message because it makes it seem like being 'selfless' is always the right way to go. I was overly selfless and self sacrificing. I shouldn't have been so selfless in the relationship, it was taken advantage of and caused serious damage in my life and well being.

i think theres a middle ground here.

"depression is a choice" is someones philosophy, someones theory. it has struck a nerve with you, understandably so. i think exploring that fully has a lot of value.

i havent forgotten how badly i was wounded after my relationship. i was deeply hurt. i was betrayed by someone i trusted. at the time, people close to me would (very gently) probe and challenge my feelings and perceptions, which were colored by my wounds. i couldnt handle it at the time. i would spin into rumination for hours on end with what ifs and a lot of self "blame". to counter those feelings, at the time, i would lean really hard in the other direction, put it back on my ex. i was pretty far gone. when i wasnt putting it on my ex, i would literally ruminate on what the weather, what the season change might have had to do with it.

at a certain point, i just wasnt in a balanced place where i could see my relationship as i do now, and it was going to be a while before i got there. i needed to fully grieve the relationship first. today, my perception of my ex, who i was at the time, how my relationship played out and broke down are very different.

i suppose what im suggesting is that while "depression is a choice" is some black and white medically inaccurate nonsense, as you heal, lean into the parts that challenge you the most, find the kernel(s) of truth.

we can move from victim, to survivor, to thriver. it isnt as simple as "a choice", of course. no one gets there magically or over night. but to me, where i hear a kernel of truth is that if we lean into the role of victim, we remain stuck in bondage and pain. acknowledging our hurts and pains and injustices done to us are part of healing. as we heal, its leaning into the uncomfortable stuff, the challenging stuff, the painful stuff, that furthers healing, the journey of growth, becoming a "thriver".

victim to survivor to thriver chart: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=56295.msg12888740#msg12888740

what do you think?

[1stTimer]

To eat healthy nourishing food, cultivate healthy nourishing relationships, to live healthy, active nourishing lifestyles. But sometimes we are harmed and there are emotional consequences

This is all very true. We can do everything 'right' and still experience physical and emotional harm. Correct me if I'm wrong here, but it seems as if you are interpreting 'depression is a choice' in a few ways that are causing you anger. Believe me I'm with you on the (somewhat) knee-jerk reaction as I have a 'spirituality-du-jour' sister who would say things like 'Dad attracted his dementia to himself'.  But if I read you correctly you are upset because it sounds a) as if you are being weak and/or self-indulgent for being depressed ("just stop!") and b) you did something wrong to cause it. You didn't eat nourishing enough food or cultivate healthy enough relationships or set proper boundaries and are suffering depression because of that. In other words (as my sister would say) you "chose" depression by the choices you made.

It sounds like you feel you made for the most part the right choices and have made hard choices to move to some point of understanding.  So I can see how the message could rub you the wrong way. But I think (and I could be wrong) her point was deciding to hold on to depression is a choice, that regardless of why or how you got there you can concentrate on healing, forgiveness, learning, moving forward. I'm guessing what she might have meant is 'wallowing in depression is a choice'. And certainly no one should take away our right to do that for awhile, it is an important part of the process IMHO, for awhile at least. So no you cannot choose to be depressed or not, to be hurt or not. You can only choose whether you want to move through or past it or not. If you're on the cusp of having come out the other side after the work it appears you have done and expected the retreat to help move you through it, perhaps you saw the 'mantra' as a criticism or lack of acknowledgement of the work you have clearly done? It seems to have sort of back or triggered the early ruminations and self-bame you moved through early on. Perhaps however she was simply acknowledging you and other people for being there and choosing the tools to move past it and not implying any sort of criticism?

[Turkish]

I'd bristle at what that teacher told you too. Very invalidating.

Grabing depression and fighting your way out has no bearing on what caused it or if it was fair - it decouples it (all Behavior therapies do) from the wounding event and pushed you to focus and deal with your reaction to the event.

I had never thought to think of it this way, but to me it's empowering. We are ultimately solely responsible for our mental health, and it helps to separate what we are responsible for from others.  I personally don't like karma (a term most often misused) because that implies that I have no power to change given impersonal external forces. The Survivor's Manual that once removed linked may be a good guide to gauge where you are and where you want to go.  

[love4meNOTu]

I had CBT a few years ago, and was in group therapy as well with people who suffered from both depression and anxiety. During that time I was dealing with a pretty deep depression.

What struck a chord with me was this explanation of Depression and Anxiety.

Depression is guilt/ regret from the past, or focusing on the past. Anxiety is focusing on a future negative consequence that may or may not happen.

I'm sorry you had to hear that depression was selfishness, however it sounds like you instantly rejected that inaccurate statement.

Good for you. 

[tin]

Thanks all for your feedback.

I think I perhaps got furious about the statements because I interpreted what was said about "our negative karma" and "selfishness" causing our depression and anxiety, in that it felt like we were being punished and this was the justice we were inflicted on, for being bad and deserving these devastating struggles with anxiety and depression as a result. The reality is that no one 'deserves' to feel this way or go through this. But we do have the power to make healthy choices and get professional help to cope with these illness and move towards healing. To be fully self centered and lack compassion and empathy for others suffering, and to fixate solely on our own suffering is not good for our mental health. I know that suffering from anxiety and depression makes it so so hard, near impossible to take the steps we need to get healthy. Every step, every goal, every action is so exhausting and intimidating and we torture ourselves. However, we also have the power to change. To focus our willpower away from external things and distractions and unhealthy coping mechanisms and do something, however small, to start to feel better. No one thing causes it and no one thing solves it. I think the oversimplification and the shame/blame way I interpreted the message had a lot to do with why it was so triggering to receive those messages.

[Turkish]

That's helpful rather than what you were told.  You should teach that class.