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Skills we were never taught
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A 3 Minute Lesson
on Ending Conflict
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Author Topic: Advice for a man who has feelings for a woman with BPD.  (Read 486 times)
BPDSponge

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« on: January 29, 2017, 06:19:11 PM »

Hi there,

There's a woman who I have recently crossed paths with a second time in my life. I had worked with her on a creative project (film) last year and over a 20 minute conversation, we got along very well. We had some things very much in common and she was very pleasant to talk to. I never followed anything up on her then as I was in a relationship. Currently I am not.

When I put out an online request for people interested to be involved in a new film project of mine, she was one of those who responded and I instantly thought of that conversation. She's very good at her creative field (Sorry, I just want to be too specific just yet), very passionate about her craft and deserves to have an opportunity to showcase her talents. I asked her to be involved.

I checked out some of her material online and being the rabbit hole of curiosity that is me and the internet, I had a bit of a look around through her social media accounts. The fact is, this woman (I'm just going to call her "B" from now on) is not only breathtakingly beautiful but from all that I have gathered online, she likes so much of the same things I do. I believe we would get along very well if we could get to know each other more.

We've maintained contact (Email, text, personal interaction) over the last couple of weeks as I've organised some meetings and workshops. She loves the project and has praised my work. All nice. In about a week or so, after B gets a little bit more used to my presence, I want to ask her to a movie and go out for coffee afterwards. Even in my mid 30's, I feel a little bit like a nervous 15 yr old again, I'm fast becoming extremely fond of her. I have no idea if she has any interest in me and that's the risk I will soon be taking when I ask to see her socially.

Now, there is an old social media post of hers where she answers sort of a small quiz to a friend. She said that she has BPD and that she hates it. Mind you, I didn't know what BPD stood for initially. I thought it might stand for Bi-Polar Disorder. I Googled BPD just to be sure which, revealed itself to be Borderline Personality Disorder, which I had known NOTHING about. The start of some research has led me here and to read up on Borderline Personality Disorder and the symptoms and effects it has. I'm no stranger to mental illness. It runs in the family a bit. My mum had depression and was diagnosed paranoid schizophrenic (She passed away 14 years ago) which the latter might have been an incorrect label/diagnosis in the end. Me, I've been going through depression/anxiety since 2002 and it comes and goes. The anxiety is kind of consistent but all in all, with medication, I would say my condition is for the most part, under control.

B fascinates me to no end. My feelings are growing very quickly and I know I need to be careful and take any step or approach slow and gently, for both her and also because I'm naturally a little fearful of getting shot down. It's been awhile since I have been in this position of having feelings for someone new. Noting that BPD can involve self harm, I've also found that B has two inner wrist tattoos and while I can't see the detail up close, (This is just assumption so I could be very wrong) I wonder if those exist to mask scars from previous bouts of cutting? I really don't know.

BPD is no doubt I am sure, an extremely sensitive topic. All I want to do is get to know B and earn her trust as we can hopefully become friends and something more. I feel anxious but also alive. There's a sense in me that wants to make her happy, to protect her and I don't know how that all sounds but there's just a genuine feeling of being attracted to her and that I am coming to care for her.

Her having BPD doesn't "scare me off" or make me second guess wanting to build a relationship with her and I think that's a good thing. I truly do not know anything about BPD beyond starting to read a few articles. I don't want to be naive, I want to understand her and her condition. I certainly have no intention of raising the subject of BPD with her, (Even though it is visible on her social media page) that's for B to do if and when she feels she can entrust me with that knowledge. But I want to be prepared I suppose in the background.

What kind of advice could you give me out there please? Those with BPD or those of you in a relationship with someone living with BPD, what can I do? I have nothing but good intentions and I'd like to have an awareness about what the future may very well hold if things could develop with B and I where we become closer, as I hope. I really, really like her.

Thanks.
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Tattered Heart
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« Reply #1 on: January 30, 2017, 07:53:15 AM »

Welcome to the board. I hope you can learn more about BPD here. I think it's important that you have a firm grasp of what BPD is if you want to continue to pursue this relationship with her. One of the first characteristics with BPD relationships is that the relationship evolves very quickly. You will both fall in love quickly and passionately. It's important with all relationships that you take things very slow.

I would highly suggest that you begin to read the lessons on the right side of the page so that you can begin to think about and practice techniques that will help you communicate with your pwBPD. These are intense relationships that are a roller coaster of emotions and it will take a lot of work, forgiveness, and most importantly taking care of your own mental well being to be in a relationship with someone with BPD. Setting boundaries is also important right from the start so that she knows what behavior you will tolerate and what you will not.

Here is an great article on how a BPD relationship evolves:

https://bpdfamily.com/content/how-borderline-relationship-evolves
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Hope deferred makes the heart sick, but a longing fulfilled is a tree of life Proverbs 13:12

gotbushels
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« Reply #2 on: January 30, 2017, 09:11:34 AM »

Hi BPDSponge  

I'll join Tattered Heart in welcoming you to the board.

I'll agree with Tattered Heart in saying that it's important to have a firm grasp of what BPD is about while you're considering a relationship with her.

I did attempt to move slowly with my own relationship with a pwBPD, but was still completely unaware of BPD--and unprepared, so I'll support that getting educated about this is vital.

Tattered Heart encapsulated what sort of relationship you may expect.

I encourage you to follow the link.



The background you share through your story--I relate to several aspects of it.

I Googled BPD just to be sure which, revealed itself to be Borderline Personality Disorder, which I had known NOTHING about. The start of some research has led me here and to read up on Borderline Personality Disorder and the symptoms and effects it has. I'm no stranger to mental illness. It runs in the family a bit.
I praise your desire to get educated about this and your honesty. At the same time, I'm getting the feeling from your post that you believe you understand what it means to caretake a pwBPD because of your family history and personal history. I encourage you not to assume that. I think to do so can be a costly mistake.

I hope you'll keep an open mind when you're on this board, both to the positive and negative aspects of these relationships. That way you'll have a broad perspective which will only benefit you.
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BPDSponge

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« Reply #3 on: January 30, 2017, 07:34:39 PM »

Thanks for the comments and advice.

I am very sure that there are great differences between the different conditions (BPD, Depression/anxiety, Paranoid Schizophrenia, etc) and don't mean to assume that because I have awareness and experience in one that I can take the same approach with BPD or that I know really what I'm doing. I just suppose that I have a sensitivity and empathy in regards to mental illness vie my background which hopefully gives me a little more equipping to learn about it and carefully build a relationship with this woman... .than coming in completely cold and never having encountered mental illness at all. Which... .in this day and age is kind of hard to do anyway.

I have a lot to read on. I think it is important for me to have a really clear grasp on what I could potentially be experiencing. And yeah sure, in that early crush/falling in love stage (I'm really not sure what it is yet myself) she seems totally perfect and wonderful right now and that's not always going to be the case and challenges will inevitably surface. I guess I also don't want a door to be shut on her finding someone who can care for her and love her and the same with me because of her having this condition. I know no one is asserting that, but let's face it, with the frustrating lack of awareness and stigmas that still exist, there are some people that would run for the hills when a mental illness in a potential partner arises... .and I'm not like that.

Thanks.
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gotbushels
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« Reply #4 on: January 31, 2017, 08:03:32 AM »

It's good that you're keeping an open mind BPDSponge. Some healthcare professionals also exercise higher caution around treating pwBPDs for a variety of reasons. These are individuals who are in this area professionally--so it's a good indication of what's involved.

Sensitivity and empathy are good skills to have. I think it's true that exposure to disordered persons can make you more aware of the array of feelings and experiences humans can have.

Do you have any thoughts on the article?  Smiling (click to insert in post)

Do excuse the wording--there's no judgment here, just curiosity. What overlap--if any--do you see between being a caretaker of a mentally disordered person and being a romantic partner?
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BPDSponge

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« Reply #5 on: January 31, 2017, 05:49:20 PM »

I found the article very informative. I can also see how for the non BPD partner, it could be a total whirlwind of emotions, greater so if he/she was not aware of the partner having BPD in the early stages to begin with. I can see that patience will be a must. Admittedly, patience is not often a strength of mine in life but from the second I started thinking about Brenda and wanting to get closer to her (Before BPD came into the picture) I had a conversation with myself about the need for patience with her. Part of this is because I'm very conscious of the cliche that is already involved in our current relationship (I'll have to reveal more info for context) because I'm a film maker and she's an actress. And I hope that she can fast understand (When I ask her out and thus my interest in her becomes known) that she's in the project on her own merits and not simply so I can "get in her pants". I just happen to want to work with her AND I'm romantically interested in her. This weighs on my mind and hope she doesn't mistake my intentions or sincerity of having two paths.

I did ask a mutual friend involved on the project how much he knew about Brenda and asked why, to which I revealed that I was fond of her. He did say he was aware of her having some mental health issues (Which "she might be past now" without going into detail about it. He only really said that she's a very nice person and to take things slowly and gently with her.

I think I was curious in the article over distinguishing I guess what's "rational" and "real". I mean, in love, what IS rational? But, I'll explain.

I know that a symptom of BPD is low self image. Brenda makes it very known on her social media how she's going to the gym and trying to lose weight and how she's not quite there. Personally, I don't think there's any issue with her weight but I respect that individually, we may have parts of us we're just not satisfied with, no matter what others may think. Even though friends of her tell her that she's beautiful and pretty, the responses she gives are humble and often "Not as pretty as you", etc.

Is it understandable (Maybe this is my own insecurity) that I wonder if she says yes, it's because she's simply getting attention (Which seems to be a big thing for BPD people based on the article) and less about a genuine reciprocal interest in me? Does that make sense?

I am genuinely worried of getting shot down and rejected and that relates to my own worry that she doesn't see me "that way". It isn't that I don't feel low self worth. And I am a combination of confidence and nervous awkwardness as well... .which which side appears is somewhat random. Although... .Brenda claims to be very awkward herself and never really knows what to say.

I guess what I am saying is that if she says yes to going out and there's interest, a positive response... .I only hope that it is genuine and that it isn't influenced by an element of BPD in her (Conscious or sub-consciously) that sees an opportunity to snare someone to "dominate" or be clingy on. I feel awful saying all of this, but I'm also referencing the article. And maybe if that element is part of it, I might not even be able to tell? Maybe I am overthinking... .another common trait of mine. But it is that overthinking which makes me plan several steps ahead of things and go to the effort of researching BPD to learn about Brenda, how to communicate with her and what could make her tick.

As for the overlap between being a caretaker and romantic partner, that's a good question and I'm not sure how to answer that exactly. Obviously compassion is there between then. The thing is that a mere caretaker has less personal stakes involved and finds it easier to create distance if things get too heated, "volcanic" and
"unreasonable". A romantic partner is so much more involved. Does a romantic partner naturally become essentially a caretaker? I think I need to think about that question some more to be honest.

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Mr.R.Indignation

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« Reply #6 on: February 02, 2017, 08:52:47 AM »

Hey Sponge!

I don't want to compromise the integrity of the forum but unfortunately I am going to be a little more biased. My entanglement had some similar features and thus I have a few thoughts on your current state of discombobulation.

Sometimes I have a whimsical thought about pirate ships. I love the idea of sailing a galleon from one continent's shore to another, just for a taste of adventure at sea.

But I will never sail on a pirate ship.

Under stormy conditions the sea is thrashing and unyielding, and a pirate ship, though full of whimsy, has little in place to prevent disaster, and what seemed as though it might be adventure can quickly turn to cabin fever. Despite the fact that I am a modern man in principle, there are the same risks at sea now as there were three-hundred years ago, and I can't be certain that I or the ship can weather the journey.

You can probably see what I'm getting at.

I also suffer with anxiety and while not especially depressed I have very low self-esteem which can lead to similar downward spirals. Despite our relative youth, my ex pirate ship is a make-up artist, I'm a bonafide writer, and we've both got a small amount of experience with film making and editing.

With those minor similarities in mind, looking at your responses you're doing as an artist does - creating perception.

I got into the relationship because my ex was raped repeatedly by her most recent narcissitic bumbag, who was harrassing her following the breakup. She felt naive, stupid and worthless. I attempted to comfort her by saying at least she'd learned from it and could prevent herself from falling into/staying in another abusive relationship. She’d told me about these occasions with sparse but cutting detail, and when she replied that she didn't think she would be able to stop it if it happened again I was heartbroken. She was a friend, I cared about her if not for her, I already felt like she was the most beautiful person I'd ever seen... .so, I figured that I should make a move. I genuinely liked her and I knew that if I was the person she was with, I'd never intentionally do anything to hurt her.

Like you I was worried about reciprocation, mainly about losing the friendship. Fortunately things went well, but right from the start I questioned her motivations as you're doing right now, and I don't think it was associated with insecurity so much as sense. I don't want to tell you jelly is concrete, but insecurity and overthinking don't necessarily equate to being incorrect, so try to figure out where the concern is really coming from and trust your judgement. In my case I did have more evidence than yourself in that I knew about her last relationship. Unfortunately, almost every single one of my initial concerns about being with her was made sediment later down the line.

Moving on, whether or not you believe you have the skills right now, this relationship may not account for errors. Eventually you will hurt her and she may not forgive you, no matter how minor the transgression. Like the storm at sea, you'll be dealing with something unpredictable and undiscriminating, and any degree of kindness, care and empathy will have as much impact on the course of the weather as a handheld mini fan.

Sometimes you won’t even have to do anything to damage the relationship, she may do it all on her own. As an example, my ex seems far more comfortable with people who actively abuse her, treating them with more trust than she ever gave to me. At one point, virtually at the end, she got scared that I was a serial killer (!) and if she allowed herself to 'fall for [me] completely' something bad would happen. There was no logic involved and while she's very capable of using empathy in certain scenarios she tends to be blind to context and motivations. Thus, even though lacking any negative indicators, she was scared of compromising herself and finding that this 'perfect love' was in fact a ruse.

While very circumstantial, just because you don't give her a valid reason to mistrust or hate you, doesn't mean she won't come up with one. All of this exposition is leading up to one lesson: Don’t doubt your mortality just because you’re decent. If you've ever noticed that your anxiety seems less prominent in situations where fight or flight are actually relevant, I feel that something similar can happen to a PD person in that when there is real evidence of threat, there is no fear of an unknown threat. This can result in a constant rotation between anxiety and waifdom. Something to consider.

Make sure to be aware that while she may appear pleasant at a glance, she has a career built on establishing fronts, and though that isn't to say that she's devoid of positives, she's presumably less likely to show any signs of frequent aggression or passive aggression in a public setting. I was a fairly close friend of my ex before becoming involved, but it wasn't until being moderately involved with her that I really started to see her (or more accurately feel her poking me with a pointy stick before promptly whacking me over the head with it).

You describe yourself as an empathetic type with a kind heart, so you have to acknowledge whether or not you can really be happy in a situation where your partner may be consistently doubting you, spitting on that kindest and convincingly acting as if you're causing their emotional distress and unhappiness. When you're a loving person you can tolerate a lot, but the idea that you're not doing enough and that you're actually causing harm can be hard to bear (whether true or not). If you enjoy making someone happy, you may have problems pretty soon down the line. Even the joy of giving compliments can not only be met with doubt, but may actually cause friction due to trust issues. If you're already worried about her feelings now, how will you feel encountering worse judgements?

Summing up: You know what you want, you know what you plan to do anyway, but you also seem doubtful that it's a wise decision.

Do you feel it's better to listen to your head or listen to your heart? You’ve come to the forum because you need support and affirmation that you’d be doing the right thing, and while poring over literature is a great move, presumably you must’ve come here out of instinctual doubt that you'd be making the right decision?

Know that whatever ideal relationship you're presenting to yourself, right now your perception is a whimsical idea and not calculation. As I once said to my ex about idealisation, it’s easy to be sold to if you’re looking to buy, but purchasing an idea won’t get you reality. Keep in mind that it's easy to feel vigilance is overrated just because it's quiet.

Finally, from a professional standpoint, would it really be worth running the risk of this relationship if you're going to be working with her? Not because of your concern of coming across as a Hitchcock, but that ye olde adage of 'don't hire people you're close to, especially if they may harbour deep resentment for complicated medical reasons.'

It's not always smart to weigh your own experiences up against other people's, but if you do get involved and feel conflicted, maybe keep stories like my own (make sure to read others) in mind to get a sense of reality. Keep an open mind, but if you decide that it's not prudent to proceed with a relationship, it probably isn't.

I apologise if this was a little blunt, but hey, hopefully it’s been somewhat beneficial to you!

Wishing you happiness with whatever you decide,

R . Indignation
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iceonthehorizon

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« Reply #7 on: February 02, 2017, 09:33:29 AM »

Hello BPDSponge,

 Go for it if you want to, no one can tell you who you should or should not get involved with. However if you do go into it expect the unexpected. First couple of loving bombing months will be amazing for you, maybe the best in your life experience, then once that stage is over (usually quite quickly) you get to finally meet the real person you are dating. It is at this point where your first crossroad choice will be experienced. If you continue then expect character assassination to trickle into your relationship. Eventually as you try more and more to make things right or fix things eventually bam she will reject you. You will be totally confused thinking over and over where have you gone wrong... eventually you will start getting over it then... .bam... .back she will come, somehow she will sense that something is wrong in the force as such. aka you are not caring about her anymore. Then get ready for the repeat cycle, love bombing again, then bam she is gone quicker this time... .and now you are really mashed up and looking all over the internet and talking to people trying to figure out is it you, is it her, you will be completely unsure and torn and wanting to get that initial person (the love bombing stage) back.

It's a pattern that will keep repeating and will break you, people with BPD yes it is a disorder but the damage they do to people is sickening and even worse is they don't truly understand just what damage they are causing. People with BPD have to control everything about the relationship, and I mean everything.

Good luck if you go into the relationship, at first you WILL think that what people have said to you is wrong but later you will realise you just weren't to know, there is a massive difference between reading about it and experiencing it... .
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« Reply #8 on: February 03, 2017, 08:20:55 AM »

Very interesting perspectives.   Smiling (click to insert in post)  Good discussion you have going on this thread BPDSponge.

Is it understandable ... .simply getting attention (vs) genuine reciprocal interest ... .
I think separate from BPD, many people--when reciprocating and interest--may feel good (attention received) and may also have genuine reciprocal interest. I don't know what she'll feel.

... .I only hope that it is genuine ... .isn't influenced by an element of BPD in her (Conscious or sub-consciously) that sees an opportunity to snare someone to "dominate" or be clingy on.
I understand these thoughts and the hope. Yes, definitely--pwBPDs may exert control consciously or unconsciously, or even a mix of both. Note also that pwBPDs don't show clear traits until a certain amount of closeness is reached.

I feel awful saying all of this, but I'm also referencing the article.
Yes, you may feel bad for looking at the unpleasant along with the pleasant. I would feel so too. If you're able to explore without judging yourself for having your feelings, I think that's a positive sign for your wellbeing.

If looking out for your interests in a long-term relationship includes understanding your potential partner's pleasant and less pleasant sides, then you're pursuing what's important to you. I think this is also a good sign for your wellbeing.

... .I might not even be able to tell? Maybe I am overthinking... .another common trait of mine. But it is that overthinking which makes me plan several steps ahead of things ... .
Yes, forming the why on behaviours is very difficult.

Sometimes things important to us merit an adequate amount of planning. If things do or don't go as planned, I hope you'll have the self-compassion to see that plans going arwy with relationships involving pwBPDs is quite common.

As for the overlap between being a caretaker and romantic partner... .Does a romantic partner naturally become ... .caretaker?
I like your exploration of this idea.

I think I need to think about that question some more ... .
I believe being a caretaker is central to being the partner of a pwBPD. I encourage you to read this board and the members that discuss on it. This board's where you're most likely to find people committed to the caretaker role.

pwBPDs have traits that are varied and unique, and many of the posts can be scary for someone in your position. I hope you'll form your own views and make your own choice. You may end up with a set of traits "easier" to handle or "difficult" to handle.

For more info about what it's like to live as a non (vs relationship evolution), I highly recommend reading this:
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=62266.msg591101#msg591101
I visited it often.

I did ask a mutual friend ... .
While perspective of others is important--and I encourage you to maintain healthy friendships--I don't think any input from my friends helped me deal with many special issues my relationship brought me. Many nons share this kind of opinion when it comes to others' understandings.
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BPDSponge

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« Reply #9 on: February 03, 2017, 10:11:17 PM »

I'm really grateful for this thread and would like to maintain it as things progress. Part of this is simply down to the fact that (I'm sure many people are like this) when you are in a crush or "falling in love" stage, you kind of want to tell the world and incessantly download your every thought and analyse every moment you have had with the object of your affection. And yet I normally value privacy with relationships!

To be completely honest too, there's that part of me that is "defiantly" heading into the unknown which is potentially fraught with danger and emotional turmoil. As one of you has said, "You know what you want" and yes, I do. Please don't get me wrong, you all have far more experience than me, I'm taking all your advice into consideration and I don't feel that there's doubt but more of a "I'm embarking on this quest (Pending her interest in me) and I just need to know what I could be in for". I value your thoughts and your warnings. Sure, sometimes they might make me gulp a little bit.

(Sigh) ... .And I'm not putting my hands over my ears and going "La la not listening" but... .I want her so bad. I see her tomorrow. I have a whole meeting planned out and things I don't to do or say that'll hopefully make a good impression on her, maybe even a bit of flirting... .which is something I hardly ever or know how to do!

If I can schedule another meeting with her and some others next weekend (She's filming something on Sat so I have to see if Sun is free) then I'll wait one more torturous week before I ask her out and figured out a good but low key way how to. If I don't feel I can fit anything in, I don't necessarily want to have to wait for two weeks and will probably bite the bullet after tomorrow's meeting. Hell... .I'm getting nervous again. She's in my head people.

It kind of feels like an Indiana Jones premise. The locals are warning me about proceeding into the cave as there are many traps that could kill me and here I am going "But... .but, the Holy Grail!"

This has a very strange hold on me, exciting and bloody scary. But like I have said, despite any inherent keenness about the woman and all that can entail, (EG: physical intimacy) I'm not looking to rush anything. I hope that puts things in my favour and is the correct way to go. I'm sure it is in any case, BPD or not. I'm willing to put in the yards.

Everyone wants an easy relationship. I've had my heart broken numerous times, endured betrayals, etc like anyone else and like anyone else... .you tire of it and hope it doesn't happen again. I don't know that blissful, perfect, conflict free relationships exist but in learning from previous girlfriends and mistakes, I hope that I can better manage to avoid a lot of issues, even if I'm coming in as a 'BPD newbie'. The fact that I know of it (Correct diagnosis or not) and am making the attempts to learn about it before we've really been able to spend a significant amount of time with each other, I think that says that I'm a strong person.

That doesn't mean a straight out acceptance (Or I'll just "wear it" of all the negativity that may be ahead but at least that I have an awareness that a storm will come one day and it'll come repeatedly.

I did have another question though. Dialectical behavior therapy (DBT). This is something that I also need to spend time researching given that it is a known treatment for BPD. I haven't started yet. But... .how common is it for a partner (Without BPD) to actively be involved in any form of therapy? If she saw a counsellor, at a time of her comfort level and her permission, could I ask Brenda to sit in/participate in a session? Could that help or would that be too much? Seeing how BPD people sometimes need space, (I guess sometimes we all do) should I not volunteer myself for that? This is all far future concepts here but... .whatever helps. That's just what it comes down to.
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« Reply #10 on: February 04, 2017, 12:47:11 AM »

Potential partners who "understand' mental illness and believe they have the patience and tolerance for it are commonly the type of people who get into trouble with a pwBPD. This is because they allow their boundaries to be shifted and compromised, under the banner of tolerance and understanding.

What is "patience"? It is waiting for things to get better, change etc. We all do this we think once this drama is over we will be plain sailing. Except it is not, nothing changes it just recycles. You can't "outwait" BPD. You have to deal with it as it is right at that moment, as it will be "at that moment" many times again. each time eroding your patience a little more.

One thing a a partner needs to be is emotionally strong as they are staving off anxiety and depression all the time. It is constantly knocking on your door. You need to be self assured and have confidence in yourself. If you have pre existing anxiety and depression it will make things so much harder for you.

If you do decide to take this further I would strongly advise driving with your brakes on. If she has BPD, and that is not a given at this stage, then you cannot fix her. The best you will get will be those first weeks, do not get dazzled by them, especially the apparent common interests.
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BPDSponge

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« Reply #11 on: February 04, 2017, 11:03:57 PM »

Still lots to think about... .

I just finished my meting with her and some others. I didn't ask her out yet. I just feel I need at least one more meeting for her to be a little more used to me before I do. Hopefully she won't be working next Sunday. Part of me felt confident but part of me felt very nervous around her, scared. We got along fine, made eye contact here and there, I smiled at her and so on and there's nothing negative to speak of but I think a little bit more time is what needs to happen and time for me to just try to relax somehow.

But an important observation which I think confirms that my thinking was quite true all along. I noticed that her forearms are covered in scars. 

Nevertheless, I don't even know if she'll accept my invitation to hang out. I'm going to offer her two options: movie and coffee later or a few rounds of pool and coffee later and present it in a way that either of her preferences should still result in a win for me. IF she shoots me down, then I feel that some of you would feel that it is better for my well being in the end, that I would save myself much future pain?

If she does say yes and things develop, then a unknown and probably difficult road is ahead. I feel what I feel. And I don't seem to know how to control it. I feel great affection for her. I feel like crying because there's just so much emotion wrapped up in me. I wish even I could find the right words and I'm the one going through it all... .and I'm a bloody writer!
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gotbushels
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« Reply #12 on: February 05, 2017, 05:29:26 AM »

But an important observation which I think confirms that my thinking was quite true all along. I noticed that her forearms are covered in scars. 

How do you feel about this?
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Mr.R.Indignation

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« Reply #13 on: February 05, 2017, 08:11:54 AM »

But an important observation which I think confirms that my thinking was quite true all along. I noticed that her forearms are covered in scars. 

Writing requires an innate perception. It's important to shape characters but also to reflect on the world and to make events logically shift from point A to point B to point C. So if you were writing a story about your circumstances, how would that timeline go? What would be the natural, uncontrived conclusions of each chapter, using only the limited knowledge you have available? Would the character pursuing the woman be making the right decision?

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BPDSponge

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« Reply #14 on: February 05, 2017, 08:40:24 PM »

Hi gotbushels and Mr.R.Indignation.

I've felt sad. Sad for her, empathetic, my heart felt for her that she's felt so much pain to go to these lengths. Even with that, it doesn't make me want to run away or put a halt to my wishes to get to know her/court her. It doesn't even seen to occur to me. Obviously there's a very real possibility that it still happens or she could self harm again if we get closer and that will be worrying and awful, etc. But in my brain, it's just as if I think, "Maybe she's not doing it right now, maybe she's getting treatment, maybe she's in a good place right now". That doesn't mean that it can't happen again but... .I'm only coming from a place of understanding and education. If she wants to fill me in on all the details, have me involved, yeah sure... .it's easy to say "I'm willing" while everything is so early and at a distance but it's true.

I can't recall if I have said this earlier but... .if I only lusted after her and just wanted sex, just wanted some "easy" gratification and was of a shallow nature, I would not be going to all the effort to learn about BPD and everything about her. It means there's something real in there I feel or feel something COULD be real.

You know, it gets more complex too as I've learned more about her since the last post. She has depression/anxiety too. Long ago in the past, she had Anorexia. AND I found out she's bisexual... .which actually kind of has me more "confused" (For lack of a better word) or stopped in my tracks, surprised... .than any of the mental illness she faces... .because I'm a straight guy with little exposure to homosexuality. I'm 100% fine with homosexuality and have a very casual gay friends, but I've never discussed or actively learned that much about that lifestyle and clearly never thought of a relationship with a bisexual person because, it just never occurred to me. And I value and desire a monogamous relationship, that's what best works for me but I don't know... .until those discussions ever happen between us, what bisexuality means to her. I get the impression she wants to find love and with one person.

Anyway... .AAAAALLLL of this is a brand new world for me. 

If I was to write a story (As Mr.R.Indignation suggests) then well... .I see it in a sense (Not too rigidly) that
A: I ask her out on Sun. She says yes.
B: Go play pool/movie then coffee, have a good time, bond, low key. I ask to see her again.
C: Something else low key, fun... .mini golf and that's a succession of "dates" that goes on for who knows, maybe 2-3 months.
D: Hopefully by then or somewhere in there, my feelings are reciprocated, we kiss. (I don't know where anything further factors in)
E: She opens up to me. I ask her what she's comfortable telling me. I'll ask questions. Hopefully she'll understand that I'm genuinely serious in how much I care about her and doing my best to be loving and supportive.
F: Perhaps I have some involvement in her therapy, if she has that going on and we're getting more serious. A proper couple (No rush to move in together, in fact for quite awhile it might be best to keep our own spaces and think about it later)
G: Oct/Nov is the period where my dad is having his 70th birthday, my sister gets married (Both simple interstate trips, get to meet the family) and "Brenda" has her 30th birthday, which I'd like to do something important for.
I haven't visualised too much further than that. Sure, I have entertained the notion in my mind's eye of marriage, kids, our mutual career interests that can make travelling "easier" than having two different fields completely... .but that's all been very brief, just to see if the image "makes sense". Otherwise I am not getting too ahead of myself.

I've been thinking more closely about how I see myself in this endeavour and identified a "narrative element" that I need to firmly understand. There is as I have previously said, a sense of wanting to protect her. I think it's that male provider/hunter/gatherer dynamic in a way, the idealistic romantic hero that sweeps her off her feet. Sounds nice in theory but can have drawbacks to a possibly crushing reality.

I want to be self aware... .even in the throes of this tsunami of emotions I am feeling and it's really hard. But I'm trying. I can't rescue her, I can't save her... .she might still be or go in and out of a bad place no matter what. Me providing love, support, adoration are not going to cure her and I realise it isn't that simple. But it can HELP. I'm sure it can make a difference. And yes, she will have her qualities that will be intense and destructive but she's still going to have the positive qualities that I effected me in the first place too.

You know what? Maybe I do get somewhere with my hopes for her and maybe it doesn't go so well. Maybe I will ultimately find it too difficult and hurtful. Maybe she rejects me. Same as it is with the merging of professional and pleasure... .it is a risk I am willing to take. I won't know how things pan out until I'm going down the road.

If I continue this path, (Probably more of a question directed at Mr. R. Indignation) do you think that I am going to make things harder for her? Am I being selfish because of how I romantically feel in the face of knowing what she has to deal with? Or do you think I'm just so unbearably naive that I have no idea what I am in for and the turmoil that is coming my way?

Sure, having such an early awareness of her mental health situation means that it is a big decision to decide "Yeah, I want her... .even with BPD, etc" OR NOT.

What IS the "right decision". I don't really know! How long is a piece of string?
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Mr.R.Indignation

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« Reply #15 on: February 06, 2017, 12:42:11 AM »

Just call me Indi. Smiling (click to insert in post) You can be Elsa, with ya dang grail chasing!

If I continue this path, (Probably more of a question directed at Mr. R. Indignation) do you think that I am going to make things harder for her? Am I being selfish because of how I romantically feel in the face of knowing what she has to deal with? Or do you think I'm just so unbearably naive that I have no idea what I am in for and the turmoil that is coming my way?

Bear in mind that I am opinionated (I mean my name is Righteous Indignation) and my standards tend to be pretty high. Despite those facts I'm not judging. Smiling (click to insert in post)

The last one definitely yes. Naivety doesn't have to mean that bad things will happen if you pursue them, it's more an aspect of not heeding signs. I can't say if you'd make it harder for her, but you will be causing her emotional distress, and she will be causing anguish for you. Those are facts. Maybe you could do something, but only temporarily. Personally I think my ex was probably happier with me than with most people, and I still believe that we could've had a happy life together ... .if she wasn't a deeply unhappy manipulator. Brenda is still cutting herself, so she still has issues, and if she hasn't come to terms with them on her own then she won't with you, you'll just defer them. Her insecurities will not go away just because you reinforce that things are fine.

In simple psychological terms, personally I think you're attempting to find a way to gratify the id by manipulating the ego and superego. I did it too. I think you really need to address what happiness means for you, in a relationship and otherwise, otherwise you fall into the same nihilistic trap as the pwBPD. You can't rely on someone else to be something more than themselves, so it's important to already have things that make you happy, things you like to live for, and to understand whether or not a partnership with a certain person is really something that will enhance life. Will it make things more enjoyable long term? Personally I feel that this would be more of a boost for you - your enthusiasm for Brenda despite apparent peril would imply there's an ulterior motive. You need to get some needs met yourself -- that's why a lot of us fall into these relationships -- therefor this is not the relationship you should be in. I'm not sure anyone expects you to stay away from the siren's song, but I think we're all hoping that you will.

And staving off sex? Not a solution in my case. In this relationship you will never be the equal, you'll be the master or the dog at different times. Therefor you will to some extent be taking advantage by proxy by being intimate with someone who's idolizing you. Never slept with my ex, did almost everything but, but if I'd pressed she would have, just not happily. Of course the frickin' irony is that she'd just ignore that fact later on, and presumably because we'd had sex end up applying more of an idea that I was special, because it has to have had meaning for her to do it, right? When it comes to mental conditions consent is a complex issue.

My ex spends a lot of time selling herself on imagery that is unequivocally a lie, generally positive stuff about her relationships with people and the specifics of the people themselves (including some stuff about me). She ends up in relationships where she feels used for sex, where she mostly has it unhappily as she's got a pretty low libido (although I get the feeling that she kind of enjoys giving head?), and where she totally resents her partners for forcing her into it, but continues for the sake of 'love' id est desperation. Putting that into perspective... .she will have sex she doesn't want to have, and continue to have sex with someone, if they lower her pants and grope her or hold her down. There is no pot of happiness at the end of a penis. But actually respect her boundaries, and she's never comfortable enough with herself for anything to happen. Well, not entirely true... .You'll have to read my story below to get a sense of it.

This was the most intense relationship of my life, it was mostly long distance, it didn't last particularly long (but long distance is like dog years) and like I said we didn't even have sex because I felt it was important she be given some time to heal up, get some power back and do things on her own terms. Also to clarify her feelings for me since I didn't want to use her. To some men this would be seen as being 'Beta,' to me it's a matter of integrity that supercedes silly gender constructs. I get my self-worth from self-respect more than anywhere, so y'know. In any case, we were both attracted to eachother, being frank I induced masturbation and so did she, but none of this involved showing skin or transcending the velvet curtain. She was too insecure, so I wasn't going to force anything although obviously when you get close with someone you want to be able to let yourself be vulnerable and connect. In a purely manly fashion.  Plus, I've never been more sexually attracted to someone.

She also had issues with showing her face without makeup, me being able to hear her eat, me being attracted to her in clothes because what if I was just imagining things as better than they are, me being attracted to her out of clothes (although obviously never witness to anything less than a bathing suit) because she lacked confidence in her body being good enough, would avoid emotional issues because they made her uncomfortable. There are plenty more, but you get the idea.

I tried to encourage a CBT type approach, I pushed her a little and tried to get her to open up, reinforced that behaviour positively, continually tried to get her to be comfortable not wearing makeup around me and realising that she was sincerely beautiful to me, yadda yadda yadda. I was achieving steady success and progress was made, although there was never any leeway on getting her to understand little things like her family saying 'it's just your anxiety playing up' was said out of support and they had good intentions (for some reason she'd get annoyed by it? Perhaps seeing it as an accusation of having a fault). Intentions and context meant very little to her - she was a vehement reductionist through and through.

I only ever blew up one time and it was because I was getting confused, irritated and insecure with the lack of trust, which I said was a turn off and immediately regretted... .I had no idea about BPD at the time, and I didn't understand why when I was offering all of this positivity, when she was attracted to me, when I was insanely attracted to her, she couldn't see that the only negative thing about her was that she was letting herself be uncomfortable when she had no reason. She kept saying 'I don't want to let myself be vulnerable and then feel stupid - I need to be sure that it'll last forever. I don't want to get judged and compared to someone else if things don't work out.'

I had insecurities but as long as I knew she loved me I was happy, so why couldn't she be happy when she knew I loved her? I blew up because I was feeling 'What's wrong with me? Why can't I help you? Am I not good enough?' For someone with BPD I think it's kind of similar, except more 'What's wrong with me? Am I not good enough? Why can't anything make me feel good?'

The point when she was actually ready to let herself be vulnerable with me, when we'd talked a lot about sex, boundaries, our bodies and insecurities, etc, and I was able to get her to successfully engage in conflict resolution and productive serious conversations, that was the point when she started turning on me completely. It was a lot of just becoming generally disagreeable at first; shooting my thoughts down, getting icy, being sarcastic in a belittling way.

Eventually she started explaining things to me as if I was a child, then complaining that she had to explain things to me as if I was a child, not realising that her condescension was unsolicited. Then she started digging up things I had said months ago - I realised just now that any time I indicated that I'm attracted to women generally, not even specific women, it was presumably seen as a threat to her - e.g I once got yelled at for saying that if I was going out with someone who was bisexual I'd be more guarded around women than men due to heterosexual bias, as I can't ever see men being more appealing than women.

Then she would argue about the fact we've been arguing and she doesn't want to argue. Then she got annoyed at me because I was still being friendly and she felt I should be taking things more seriously. A lot of the time inbetween she was annoyed at the time I was giving to her, the amount I was conversing, etc. She didn't like it when I gave any time to friends (friends I'd been neglecting) and could have been talking to her. I was supposed to be giving my constant attention. Later on she stated that conversations seemed one sided, but a lot of the time that was more because of her input than mine. As you'd well know, a writer can easily talk a lot, so the only issue was that it's hard to remain enthusiastic in a confusing long distance relationship where you're being treated as a second class citizen. I wasn't in good health at the time we were arguing so that didn't help. She started blowing up all the time, at basically EVERYTHING I said, no matter what it was, which was pushing me away further.

I told her maybe we should take a break from speaking for a week so that we could cool off and have our feelings renewed. I made it clear I'd miss her, and she said she thought it sounded like a good idea. Maybe three days in I get a text saying she's really red in the face angry at me because of... .something I don't remember, and because of not speaking. She said she didn't like being ignored. She said she was annoyed at the time she agreed, which confused me. I mean she said it was a good idea!

Then I patched things up very briefly before we had a huge four or five day philosophical/anthropological debate which ended with me sort of defending prejudiced people (she's reductionist, I'm determinist) and her swearing at me, comparing me to a racist, a rapist, a terrorist and a Nazi. All that just for saying that people aren't just stupid, they're ignorant due to upbringing, social groups, etc and would probably change if properly educated. Love the sinner, hate the sin. She did not like any of that, stated 'so people should be educated and stopped? You're ridiculous' and told me she never wanted to speak to me again. I have no idea how she got the impression that I was racist when she acknowledged I was saying it should be stamped out, but anyway!

One or two weeks pass, she comes back or I try to get her back. That is a very blurry time for me. At that point I got a lot of breakup style comments without actually saying we'd broken up. 'If you'd just let me get comfortable in my own time I'd be comfortable now... .' was among the first, but it never really made sense to me, especially since she'd always feel a lot better after we'd talked and even went as far as saying so; all those productive conversations were clearly productive prior to the disagreeable stage when she started refusing to have the conversations. From there it was 'I think it's good to have a sense of humour but not the jokey kind,' 'if we can just be friends for a bit and then pick up again when we can be closer,' 'I'd maybe be okay if we'd lasted a few more months,' 'we're complete opposites,' 'we're toxic for eachother,' 'things have been abusive - but it's only because you make me like this.'

That's the problem with thinking you can make things better and be a rescuer - for a little while you will be, but then you'll be the enemy for being a friend and a lightning rod for her redirected self-hatred. She can't have something good because having it means she can lose it, and by avoiding something that does make her happy she won't have to face the reality that she's still unhappy in all sorts of other areas, like with herself. She wants to be rescued, but she never will be, because she's the one who can do the rescuing.

Take all of that as you will. One final selection of points:

My relationship ended quickly because beyond the one blow up and another moment where I'd told her I didn't think it'd be a good idea for her to get cosmetic surgery (figured it'd just create more image issues instead of building confidence which was all she needed), I had done everything right. Not just in the sense of placation, in terms of standing up for myself and sticking to my guns where it mattered, attempting to set boundaries, maintaining the integrity of us as individuals and the integrity of the relationship, being good at conflict resolution, trying to promote growth. The way I was doing things was working. But the key word is was. Handling the relationship well would've been great if it was with a non-PDP, and it's a great way to test if a relationship will be functional since issues have to be overcome. Long distance is legitimately tough and painful, but it's survivable. However she kept getting her ankles caught in snares and could never get past things, and the fact I didn't compromise my principles meant that the relationship ended sooner. It wasn't premature, it was efficient. If you compromise, it's letting yourself be yielded a puppet. It's letting one lie pass to establish part of a bigger lie. You hold the anger and insecurity off for one day, but there's always the next, and the next, and the next, and eventually you realise you've been compromising just so you can be discarded later rather than sooner.


Sorry it's so, yeah... .yaknow. Hope it helps. I'd make it neater but disturbed night and it's 6, going on for 7am here.

Indi
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Mr.R.Indignation

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« Reply #16 on: February 06, 2017, 07:45:26 AM »

Just thought I should add - my story is incredibly mild compared to a lot of people's. I got emotional trouble and cancelling a move, while other people already had a house with their partners, and had is the operative word.

You look around the forums and you'll see people in custody battles, in divorces, fighting to keep money they earned and may lose because their ex suddenly underwent a drastic nonsensical change, but is convincing enough to others that the image of the non becomes tarred. The difference between entering the relationship aware or unaware is like the difference between driving drunk or driving sleep deprived. It's not impossible to have a relationship with a PDP, but it is highly inadvisable.

It is not just future trust issues and strife over your feelings. You can lose everything because of this relationship.
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gotbushels
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« Reply #17 on: February 06, 2017, 09:05:56 AM »

... .Or do you think I'm just so unbearably naive that I have no idea what I am in for and the turmoil that is coming my way?
It's not that your position is "unbearably naive". I think naive by the definition of having an absence of experience. That's not bad. I'm not implying many people here have heaps of it. I believe people who've gone through things like "... .custody battles, in divorces, fighting to keep money they earned ... ." have this certain understanding. An understanding that makes it hard to relate to what it was like without that understanding. When these people gained this information, they don't remember what or how they used to think before the bigger issues in the relationship started happening.

What IS the "right decision". I don't really know! How long is a piece of string?
You can assess a partner's compatibility before you date them. In fact, I'd encourage it. But I do think that you have to be honest in whether you want to "prove the yes" or really attempt to discover an answer you'd be glad to be responsible for.  Smiling (click to insert in post)

Any thoughts on waverider's response? I think it's packed with insight. I hope you'll look at the things he touched on. Specifically--boundary maintenance vs tendencies to shift boundaries because of a person's historical reasons; thoughts on "patience" and the cycling issue; staving off anxiety in this special relationship.
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BPDSponge

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« Reply #18 on: February 06, 2017, 09:14:49 PM »

Whew... .

Just to quickly add, I don't know if "Brenda" still cuts or not, I really don't. Nothing that I glanced on her forearms looked fresh. Whether she does it anywhere else on her body, I don't know that either.

I don't mean to keep harping on the social media thing but, it does feel like there's been a big difference in the patterns of what she was focusing on and what was her mindset. Longer ago, there were constant public references to her struggles and complaints about not being able to find a job, among other things. She's been working a day job for a good year or so and I'm sure that gives her a help in her self esteem and stability. And Hell, we all know about social media in that some of us portray this "great life" as the front, never showing all the troubles we are REALLY dealing with. Perhaps she has evolved to that, the discipline that she's still going through a rough time and simply not voicing it to everyone. OR, as the "impression" that I have, she doing generally OK, at least compared to the past. I don't know half of where she's at until I talk to her in a more in depth manner.

With staving off sex, I don't know... .I just mean I'm trying to take things slow out of consideration and respect for her. Sure, the urges are there but I also have to get us to learn about each other and trust each other. As BPD can involve impulsive behavior, it's very possible that she'll want to jump to something physical very quickly and no doubt that would be hard to resist but I hope by discussing things that we want and what is right for us... .we can agree to do certain things when it is right. I guess in my lack of experience here, my go to theory is to aim to take things slow and not go too fast, too soon. I think even without her disorders, that would be my mindset. My first "relationship" (Kind of a glorified fling really) moved waaay too fast. She was a gorgeous blue eyed blonde that practically seduced me and went right for the sexual jugular and at the time it was the most amazing thing ever but even so I knew that wasn't the "normal" way to go about things. I was kind of expecting a few more steps to come before that and she skipped all of that. I'm just trying to do the right thing or what I believe is the right thing.

Like I've said, I APPRECIATE the time people are spending and responding and warning me for my sake. I really do. And while yes, I have absolutely come here for advice and you all have experience in this area, ultimately... .every case and individual with BPD will be different. I guess it is tricky in that you're only getting information from me and my perspective, you can't do some astral projection to see Brenda and what she is like and how we are around each other... .or necessarily predict the future.

I'm a guy that tends to like structure and organisation. I think ahead and that sometimes leads to procrastination, missed opportunities and regrets. I don't often do things on impulse. It's that level of planning, for better or worse that leads me to forums like this. I can imagine some of you thinking already that the idea of a guy that generally prefers a semblance of order, wanting to embark on a journey with a woman who's going to be unpredictable... .is completely insane.

I suppose it's my heart vs. my head. I have seriously considered writing up a pros vs. cons list of continuing to see where this goes. Try somehow to be a little more objective. Maybe I should enlist a friend, a third party who is without so much bias to help me? Of course, asking her out later this week will be the turning point to know if that journey is viable or if it comes to a halt. My head is showing me evidence of problems that could and probably will come up, things that will cause stress and frustration. But my heart yearns so strongly to be closer to her and take a risk. I know that I'm here, repeatedly looking to justify to myself why I think it is worth going after her. I'm doing that to all of you and I'm doing it to myself with my constant self talk. It's like a Presidential debate or a court trial going on in my brain. Making the case, listing the reasons, motivations and analysing, analysing, analysing... .a somewhat irritating but core trait of mine.

By the way, I am able to figure out what some of the terminology and acronyms, etc are but what is PDP?

I think it's also been clearly easier for me to still go "Yeah, I still want her" because I have not seen the mood swings yet and as I've been told, that won't happen till further down the track. So until you've been able to get an early taste firsthand, it's easy to forge ahead anyway. If however I were able to see her when she's in full flight of BPD in these early stages, then I have more at hand for me to weigh up what I should do. Till then, almost all I see is what is good and great about her.

And we can talk for ages about how a person should ideally be secure and confident with themself (which everyone is surely on different levels on) before adding a partner because that partner isn't supposed to fill a void. But, even the more secure person can still feel that there is something missing in their life and want someone to love and share life with. I have confidence in some areas but doubts and awkwardness in others. It's not all bad and certainly not perfect.  But I do feel that Brenda and I could have a lot of fun and there's potential to be able to enjoys a lot of life and that's what enables me to still want to find out more about her and take those steps forward... .because I like the visuals. Even with future "trouble" looming. So yes it is a boost for me but I too think that I can add value to her life too. I'm not a rescuer, i'm not a savior. I'm just a guy that likes a girl and hopes he can help along the way and do more "good than bad" for her.



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Mr.R.Indignation

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« Reply #19 on: February 07, 2017, 07:51:04 AM »

PDP is just 'Personality Disordered Person.' I'm not sure anyone besides me uses it! Sometimes pwBPD seems like a mouthful so I go for PDP. Semantics.

The idea of just wanting to share an enjoyable experience with someone sounds optimistic in a good way, as long as it involves an acknowledgement that with a PDP it's unlikely to last (although as you've said, this can be true of many non-BPD relationships). If she's had therapy and made the progress then you may have an easier time, although that is still an if and a may.

A pros/cons list sounds like good thinking too. I think it's better if you force yourself to be unbiased than to rely on a friend to do it for you - if you can already figure out that you're a little biased then you'll know when to make things more realistic, right?

If you're going to go into the relationship, basically you just need what you're seeking - you need to be prepared for getting dragged through dirt. Being able to accept it if it happens will be immensely important to your wellbeing.
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« Reply #20 on: February 07, 2017, 08:14:31 AM »

Wow.  You are a brave and caring soul.  I have never thought of BPD through your perspective.  I never knew about BPD when I was young and fell deeply for my future BPD wife.

All I can say is that I have two wonderful kids and 17 years of wasted, anxious, unhealthy, tortured existence--and many years of lost dreams as a result of NOT understanding what I was getting myself into.

I myself will NEVER knowingly entertain dating a BPD or NPD person, ever again.  I will also run the other way very quickly should a love interest firmly begin to demonstrate these behaviors.

It is interesting to me though that you remind me of the 22 year old me... .caretaking, rescuing, wanting to make everything "right."  This is also the same type of person who my now former BPD spouse immediately jumped ship to.  Do not be surprised if this woman has already fallen for you hook, line, and sinker and you don't even know it.  If so, she will suck you in like an event horizon when you tell her you care for her.  It is also amazing to me how many of these people are beautiful types. It doesn't help either.  I'm worried for you my friend.
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Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: In the process of divorce after 12 year marriage
Posts: 1663



« Reply #21 on: February 07, 2017, 04:59:48 PM »

BPDsponge, it's good that you're starting to learn and ask questions about BPD. You're absolutely right to, at minimum, be very cautious about getting into one of these relationships. As I read your insightful description of yourself as a white knight rescuer type, I have to ask if you're familiar with co-dependency? People with strong co-dependent traits (as you appear to be) are extremely attracted to BPD types and suffer the worst relationships with them. Here's a workshop to get you started:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=111772.0
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BPDSponge

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What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Other
Posts: 20


« Reply #22 on: February 07, 2017, 08:55:32 PM »

You know, I'm coming to also feel sad and empathetic for the non BPD people here, for what they to have to go through. I can see that it's really not easy and very draining.

I know that for my dad, it was enormously hard for him, taking care of my mum with depression/anxiety, the paranoid schizophrenia diagnosis she fought so hard against, the repeated mental hospital stays and later the emphysema (And hospital stays) which eventually killed her. But he still misses her like Hell.

Remember, a lot really hinges on how this Sun is meant/will pan out. I can do all the research in the world and it's been valuable but I'm not going to know where anything is going till then. The problem is taming all the crap in my head, the worry, the curiosity, the pining and everything else.

I know that her beauty doesn't make it easy for me. I guess there's something about humanity that makes us feel compelled to go to great lengths for those we find attractive. Forgive the generalisation but, probably us men especially. There's a lot that draws me to her and there I am with my jaw dropped, a deer in headlights. And it's nice but also scary that someone's having that hold or effect on me. Sitting with the unknown and fear is very much a pain in the arse.

I regret mentioning the white knight rescuer description. My head has a lot going on and when I write sometimes i just go full on stream of consciousness with it. There IS an element in me that has this vision of the "romantic hero", I'll admit but at the same time, I've had many conversations with myself (angel and devil on the shoulders) to warn myself how dangerous that mode of thinking is. While it isn't a big part of this who thing, I'm working on combating this all too idealistic concept and delusion.

But you also have to realise it is also kind of part and parcel for a lot of guys that find a girl they like and then establish a mission to win her over. It's in our nature to want to sweep her off her feet and such. (Goddamn romantic comedies ruined everything for us!)

As for co-dependency, I know that it's not a great thing, it can cause a lot of problems. Despite our best intentions, do we sometimes fall into those roles? My ex-girlfriend needed to reply on my when she was going through a serious illness for a couple of years. I had to handle the groceries, the dishes, washing, bins. But as I'm terrible with maths and cooking, she handled finances and dinner and then I didn't have to think about it. But when we broke up, that crushing reality of having to pick up those skills I passed over to my partner, was very scary at first. But after a few weeks, I've adapted and found that wasn't so bad.

I don't want this potential relationship to be toxic or one sided and I'm sure you'll say it is unavoidable. I realise that a lot will be asked of me and I probably don't really foresee what's coming as clearly as those who've been there already. There's probably things about me that might be trying and overwhelming or vexing for her too. I've been a LOT calmer (Medication, monitoring and minimising my exposure to stimulus that will get me to react, improving my martial arts training regimen) over the months since my break up... .but I knew my anxiety and bursts of frustration were at times hard for my girlfriend to deal with. She supported me but I could see it sometimes pushed her buttons.

But I don't really know what "Brenda" wants and needs in a relationship yet anyway until I ask her... .sometime, if I can get to that stage. SO many unknowns.  I had a glance at the article link but will read it again and get back to this board.
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BPDSponge

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What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Other
Posts: 20


« Reply #23 on: February 12, 2017, 08:50:20 PM »

Well, to update, I asked "Brenda" out after our meeting.

Gave her the options of movie/coffee or play pool/coffee. She smiled. Preferred coffee, think she said she wasn't sure about a movie (?). To be honest, some of this who situation was a blur and I can't remember it all! It's not an easy thing to do. But I asked if we could play pool and she agreed. I asked if she's any good. She said no, "You'll have to teach me". But she hasn't locked in a time and date. One part where I went blank (Damnitt) was her explaining the reason why she couldn't lock it in yet... .has to check schedule maybe? She mentioned something about her job maybe coming to an end soon and I can't remember why that was either, even though I asked her why.

I'm usually a better listener than that but I guess I was also just trying to come down from the adrenaline of making my feelings somewhat known and taking the risk. And while I don't want to put too much thought into it, I think I did make reference in a previous post to the notion that she appears to be in a "decent place" and I'm sure the stability of having a job (Compared to her past lack of success) helped a lot.

We had a nice conversation in amongst asking her out, finding common ground over certain movies and geeking out. And in the last week we've had a few Facebook bonding conversations and she's liked and shared a  few of my posts, which kind of make my day.

The hardest part is in the tortuous wait of her getting back to me this week in actually organising a time to hang out. But... .it wasn't a no, so there's that. It's not exactly bad.

She wore her top up to her elbows again so I suppose she's not so totally self conscious that she can't allow her many forearm cutting scars to be visible. I might think that is a good thing, that maybe she is more accepting of herself. If so, good for her. Optimistic that we'll get to know each other enough that she can trust me to talk about her scars, reveal the BPD condition, etc... .it'll be interesting to see how that transpires.

Can I ask another question? For either BPD people or a partner of one, when it was revealed that you or the love interest has BPD, how did that go about, what was said? How did it go? What was the empathy/understanding level like? Reaction? Sadness? Confusion? Freaked out? Scared? Disgusted? Emotional? Mature? Caring?

... .Still waiting for a BPD For Dummies book to come in to the library. Still tying to learn. I know there's been attempts to dissuade me from embarking down this road. If it wasn't so unethical and a breach of our privacy (Something I value), I'd post a picture of her or show you what I see... .her interests or conversations. What I mean is that I sometimes wish people could be a fly on the wall. I know I haven't seen the "hard stuff" YET... .but my heart is so taken by her. Good or bad, she's iresistable to me.
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SuperJew82
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What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 301


« Reply #24 on: February 14, 2017, 12:07:56 AM »

She reminds me a good bit of my later diagnosed BPD exgf. Why on earth would you do that to yourself? After a year and a half of torture, it is taking me months to recover from the PTSD.

If I could have only stumbled on the info you have, I could have saved myself some major trauma. I'm getting better but she damaged me permanently in some ways.

When there are thousands of other choices out there, why walk into an ambush? If you had skin in the game ( marriage, kids, etc ) , I would consider sticking it out if she was religiously going to therapy and dead set on evolving, but this seems kind of rare.

You will have to make your own choice, but once the FOG, gaslighting, crazy accusations, cheating, push/pull ,recyling, etc start making your mind scramble it might be too late for you. The intensity becomes like crack, and you want more of it for some reason. I was a caretaker... .I can help her makes things better, show her how to be happy... .boy was I wrong... .
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BPDSponge

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What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Other
Posts: 20


« Reply #25 on: February 21, 2017, 10:25:15 PM »

It is interesting you say it is like crack, you want more because while I haven't got to the surface of seeing her BPD symptoms... .it feels like I'm addicted to this woman in some way and somewhat desperate to get closer to her, despite any problems, present or future that may be apparent or in store. This is a hard one.

And I have been reading further into BPD and you know, it is daunting. I will be honest. I'm really muddled.
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gotbushels
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Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 1586



« Reply #26 on: February 24, 2017, 08:55:06 AM »

(... .)
it feels like I'm addicted to this woman in some way and somewhat desperate to get closer to her, despite any problems, present or future that may be apparent or in store.
These are very strong words. Why do you feel how you feel? What do you think this relationship will do for you?

And I have been reading further into BPD and you know, it is daunting. I will be honest. I'm really muddled.
What are you interested in--in your life--besides this person?
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BPDSponge

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What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Other
Posts: 20


« Reply #27 on: June 15, 2017, 12:22:46 AM »

(Sometimes I had) and to be honest in my own depression state that "Maybe I am not strong enough to handle her and her conditions" and... .that's "OK".

I still find myself drawn to her beauty from time to time but the crush, the yearning is also fading and i'm increasing more distance for my own sake. It's a pity, it's too bad in a way that she couldn't see my value and tried to give me a real chance. It's too bad that the legitimate excitement I had way back when she suggested having a date in the future ultimately turned into nothing. It's too bad she's got so much going on in her life that is hard. It's not all necessarily her fault and I have compassion and empathy... .but I also feel, for lack of a better word... .that she has been oblivious and insensitive and that just doesn't help and they are not good signs. Maybe too much of an uphill climb. Would I spend most of my time worrying about where I stand with her (Had anything progressed) as opposed to simply enjoying her company and being happy? I truly think so now. In the end, I just don't think she's right for me. I thought with an open mind (On both sides) she could be, but... .this should not be as hard as it is and that kind of says it all.

Even though she still did end up working on my film project (Nearly edited and complete, ready to move on), a large part of me would just like to forget her and get on with life and other pursuits... .career, personal, relationships.
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