I'm ready to learn the tools - III

[Oncebitten]

Mixed signals

I constantly find myself at a cross roads with her.  

Things come up and I know in my heart she needs me, she needs me there with her.  My instinct is to simply go to her, ride in and save her.  

And yet she tells me don't come here, I don't need you to do that, I haven't asked for that.  

And then she turns around and says you have never just showed up when I needed you.

She constantly sends mixed signals, I know if we lived closer it wouldn't be an issue.  But we aren't, its a days drive to be with her... .and that's what leaves me perplexed.  :)o I be brave and go... .and if she won't see me so be it?  If I just go am I being selfish since she told me not to come or am I being chivalrous?  Going bc she needs me, no matter if she sees me or not.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[once removed]

I constantly find myself at a cross roads with her. 

you have gotten a lot of advice on this, the dynamics of your relationship, and what is needed to affect a change.

rather than us be redundant, it will help us better support you if you can clarify which bits of advice make sense to you, and which dont.

[Oncebitten]

I understand that I cant let her run the show so to speak.  And that I have to live my life and not allow her to dictate what I do.

I feel like this is different, this isnt just a trip or a vist... .she is in distress... .my instincts tell me she needs me... .even if she says she doesn't.

I guess my question is do I listen and respect her wishes or do I do what I feel is best... .she tends to appreciate those brave acts I guess youd call it

[once removed]

what distress is she in?

[Oncebitten]

family turmoil... .I just want to be there for her... .I know she hates for me to drive all that way just to give her a hug so to speak... .she even got upset and said my coming was selfish... .to me its selfless... .going to the one you love bc they are upset... .expecting nothing in return

[once removed]

she even got upset and said my coming was selfish... .to me its selfless... .going to the one you love bc they are upset... .expecting nothing in return

so you already know how this will go.

you are expecting something in return. you want to see her. interact with her. move your relationship forward.

from her perspective it is selfish, smothering, and not respecting her wishes.

its the opposite of the direction needed to achieve your goal. you already know that too.

[DreamGirl]

Putting the discussion of the relationship aside, for a minute.

Your love interest has (1) asked you not to visit and (2) expressed displeasure last time you made an uninvited visit. To visit her against her will or unannounced is harassment and could possibly rise to "stalking".

Stalking - People characterized as stalkers may be accused of having a mistaken belief that another person loves them (erotomania), or that they need rescuing. Stalking can sometimes consist of an accumulation of a series of actions which in themselves can be legal, such as calling on the phone, sending gifts, or sending emails, but cumulatively, are harassing.

The members are advising you, unequivocally, that to visit her without an explicit invitation is not appropriate and that any indirect expressions should not be interpreted as an explicit invitation.

This is undoubtedly hard to hear, but we saying this, this way, so here won't be any mixed messages coming from your support group friends. Everyone needs to be feel safe.

[livednlearned]

I agree with Skip.

Why not put the ball in her court?

You have to find a way to unload the responsibility for her mixed signals from your shoulders onto hers.

She wants to see you? She can make arrangements to come to you.

Be confident that you are worth the trip 

[heartandwhole]

You have to find a way to unload the responsibility for her mixed signals from your shoulders onto hers.

She wants to see you? She can make arrangements to come to you.

Be confident that you are worth the trip 

Totally agree with LnL.

Once, what about saying something like this to her: "Sweetie, I am worried about how much stress you are under right now and would love to come and be with you to help in any way I can. Since you've said that you don't want me to come, please tell me how I can best support you from here. I care very much about you."

That way, you've clearly expressed your desire to be with her, but have also respected her wishes. Ball in her court.

[Grey Kitty]

$.02 about mixed signals:

Maybe that is the best she can do. Maybe she can't give you a clear signal, or at least can't give you a clear "yes" signal.

My new attitude about mixed signals is to interpret the back-and-forth-maybe as "Nope". I want more than that in a partner, or even a friend. If you cannot be unambiguous that you want to be my friend, I'm moving on, and will look for good people that can be clear about it instead.

[patientandclear]

My new attitude about mixed signals is to interpret the back-and-forth-maybe as "Nope". I want more than that in a partner, or even a friend. If you cannot be unambiguous that you want to be my friend, I'm moving on, and will look for good people that can be clear about it instead.

 

Me too.

[heartandwhole]

Me too.

Me three 

[Oncebitten]

I decided to simply make my trip for work and not force her to see me.  Once I was done with my meeting I called her and told her I was done and that if I would love to see her if she liked if not I was heading back home.  She decided that it would be a shame to not see one another giving how close I was.  We went to supper together and had a wonderful time, she apologized for being so difficult about me coming to town.  Marveled at how comfortable we were both this time and asked when I would be able to come back.  I think it removed the unobtainable fantasy from her mind and helped her to realize that the last visit wasn't as bad as she had made it out to be.

[livednlearned]

Nice 

What is the takeaway for you?

[Oncebitten]

that the things we talk about, the things she says she wants when she is emotionally neutral are her true feelings... .not to say that her feelings aren't real when she is in distress, but they tend to be short lived.  I have come to realize that I simply need to remain consistent in my behavior, the less I react to her moods the better off we both are. I have come to realize that she will have outburts and they can be bad... .but as I have started using the tools consistently the r/s has improved dramatically.  I have simply started to let her vent about all the old wounds, listen activily but not really participate.  It no longer escalates to a fight... .simply a dispersal of emotion which I can appreciate

[livednlearned]

Those are good takeaways!

It may also be true that she stepped toward you when she sensed you were not coming there just to see her. You were doing something for yourself.

That's attractive to her.

Many people with BPD externalize their emotions. Your GF may too, where she feels secure and confident when you feel that way too.

The catch is that it can't be an act. 

[Oncebitten]

Yes she takes a lot of comfort in my certainty about things.  I have noticed a couple of times when I was very distressed/depressed about the r/s and spoke with a noticeable degree of uncertainty she got very upset. Most of the time I am positive about the r/s and its not an act.  I know the love is real and I feel that as long as I manitin a positive outlook and stay consistent with what our goals are we will be good.

[Grey Kitty]

  You handled it well. You were focused on what you wanted, instead of what "she might be thinking", which works much better. You can provide stability on your side ofthings; it won't be coming from her!

Anyhow, I'm glad it worked out. 

the things she says she wants when she is emotionally neutral are her true feelings... .not to say that her feelings aren't real when she is in distress, but they tend to be short lived.

I'd *mostly* agree... .except that I'd suggest that you consider all of what she says/does equal weight, believing it to be true at the time it is said. Try not to discount the bad/unpleasant ones as the "only" temporary ones so much.

[Oncebitten]

Grey Kitty

Im beyond glad that it worked out well too.  We are still on track for what we want.  And being calm and consistent on my side is a big reason why.  I know her fears are real and I dont discount them. I guess I just feel like at times she puts more weight on a single event than she should... .ie one bad meeting means we dont have real chemistry... .not the case and I was certain of that... .its real and I am glad she allowed me to see her and that I removed that fear

[Grey Kitty]

I guess I just feel like at times she puts more weight on a single event than she should.

Not arguing that she does this... .Just sayin' that she's probably going to continue doing this, and the recovery from it could be better or worse than it was this time.

[Oncebitten]

GK

she has always done that... .I guess its comes from being in the moment with her feelings. 



Everything has been going so well, yesterday she told me that she had called her friend the guy who has always caused us some problems.  They had a falling out a while back and she hadn't spoken to him in weeks.  Long story short, they patched things up and she told me she that she realized how much she missed his friendship.  She knows I dont like him, she knows how much he has always upset me.  He can't just be her friend, he always has to get his digs in about me and tell her how I am not right for her.  He has no desire to be her friend, he is just holding out hope they end up together.  She knows this, and she knows it upsets me, yet she seems incapable of letting go of him permanently.  He is her eternal fall back, a man who loves her and is dedicated to her and requires nothing back... .not even her to tell him she loves him, she claims she has never done that.

I never know how to handle it.  She aways says if forced to pick its me, but if thats true why does she have to keep him around? Does she do it just to triangulate me? or is she just scared to put it all into me?  I bothers me greatly and when I bring it up, and bring up how he feels about her... .her answer is always "what about me"... ."what about how I feel, I don't love him, never will, its you I love so why do you get mad that I talk to him or hang out with him once in a while?


Am I wrong for being upset?  Is this my issue or hers?

[Grey Kitty]

I never know how to handle it.  She aways says if forced to pick its me, but if thats true why does she have to keep him around? Does she do it just to triangulate me? or is she just scared to put it all into me?

First off, I'd avoid assuming she stays in contact with this guy BECAUSE of you in any way.

Second, I was in a somewhat similar situation with my stbexwife, actually a couple times, and I'll tell you what my experience was:

She would (usually) agree to cut contact or stay within the limits I insisted upon.

Then later (weeks or months usually) , she would re-connect or blow past my limits, when a different feeling/mood struck her, and her earlier "promise" didn't seem to apply, be worth it, or whatever.

This repeated many times.

Are you willing to put up with this if she keeps on doing it like this forever?

[Oncebitten]

GK

IDK anymore... .I don't feel like he can just be her friend.   Thats not what he wants, and I feel like as long as there is that dynamic, she and I will have problems. 

we always have, I have this jealous view if him, and she knows it and despite my objections she cant seem to cut him loose permanently.

[Oncebitten]

I feel as though I am loosing my mind... .I have my days with her and everything is perfect, we talk and make plans for the future.  And then it all flips around, she has to go spend time with her "friend" despite the fact that she knows I hate him.  All because he is there and he has the freedom to see her whenever she wants.  And I am here, I offer to make adjustments to my life, so that we can spend more time together but she doesn't want that.  I dont know how I endure this much longer.  The distance, the time apart, her spending time with him.  And as she put it, "I can't know what she does when she is with him, anymore than she can know what I do when I am not with her physically or on the phone".   I feel like I am still being punished for what happened this summer.  I times I can be mature about it and accept that he is her friend... .but then she says something like that and it eats at me... .I am losing control of my emotions.  I find myself breaking down into tears with her far more than I like... .Is there any solution to this pain?
I feel like I cant breathe without her and yet its driving me mad trying to be with her.

[patientandclear]

OB--sounds like there is a degree of distance she is comfortable with, and with both of you, she makes sure to insert the distance to keep you at arm's length. With you, you're long distance, she resists seeing you, and when you do have time together, she immediately drops the "friend" into your awareness. She is creating distance as a sort of safety valve. Put on his lenses for a moment and you can see the same is true. He's there, they're so close she can't not see him despite what she says to you ... .Yet from his perspective, she won't let go of the other guy (you).

Do you see how the system works? She is comfortable with this and it's happening for a reason, a reason that's not likely to just resolve itself.

My heart goes out to you. The pwBPD whom I loved could be very close to me--so long as there were certain barriers to prevent complete union. After a time, one of those was other women. The closer we got the more insistent he became that this was necessary and important to him. Over time the pattern became clear: we were very close, he was seeing someone else, there was a woman married to a good friend of his he was very close to, and there were probably other people. This was how he made himself feel safe. With only one of us, he would have felt unsafe for complex reasons: he would be too dependent, too vulnerable, too completely known. This was how he managed complex fears.

Making it harder to accept, like the woman in your life, he would idealize single partnership as his goal. He wasn't describing himself as a guy who wanted an open relationship. He was just living that way consistently over time. I was confused for a while, but then I had to accept this is what he does and he has no intention of changing and lacks the skills/insight to change.

Eventually the only question became whether I want to participate in that. I didn't and so I'm not a part of his life anymore. Some people can tolerate such an arrangement. You eventually will need to decide if you are one of them. If you're crying and in constant tension because of the barriers to complete intimacy that she puts up, including this guy, that's a good sign that you are not presently comfortable with how she is.

Knowing who YOU are here is paramount. I recommend assuming she is going to continue as she is now, and spending time figuring out what that means about how you want to proceed.

[Oncebitten]

PandC

That is exactly what she does, she tells me how badly she wants me, how she wants to get married as soon as we can... .we are forced into this LDR bc of circumstances right now but the goal is to be together, to have a life together.  But then she tells me how she needs to be able to go do things and have fun and that she can't just stay at home and wait for me to call... .which I understand, but why does it have to be with him?  Why, can't she have fun with her friends, why must it be this guy who has been in love with her for so long.  She wants us to remain exactly as we are, but doesnt want to give him up.  They had a falling out and had NC for several weeks... .the most peaceful time we have had in forever.  When we are together, everything is great.  I know that if we can get to that point where we can be together and remove the distance, so many of our problems will fall away.  I understand the condition and realize there will always be issues, but these issues are the worst.  The idea of her spending time with him makes me sick... .I have no idea what to do other than say the h*ll with circumstances and close the distance.

[patientandclear]

I think you may be misunderstanding. The distance is desirable and she will work to maintain it. Not in her fantasy of the life she wants, but in actuality.

The guy there is attractive because he is not you. If you "close the distance" it has the opposite effect. I don't think you are perceiving the safety valve function that both the physical distance and the other guy play (with respect to you). You may also consider whether you play the same role in his relationship with her. It may be that everyone is made to feel primary. Except for there's this one little fact that doesn't fit.

In your response above you say "this is exactly what she does," but don't seem to be hearing the point that she wants it this way. If you erase the distance you are NOT solving a problem she wants solved. Or at least, that is my best guess based on similar behavior by the man I loved, and from what you've recounted.

She injects distance and obstacles: she doesn't want to meet in person for whatever doesn't-make-much-sense reason. She sees him, even though she knows you don't want her to. She isn't sure about you because you saw someone else when you were broken up with her. Different details, same pattern. She likes to be a fraction of a full relationship with you and talk about the potential of more, but not really allow that to proceed. That feels good to her.

You are on Improving so I will just say that, to improve your state of mind and stay in this relationship, you'll need to stop expecting the distance to be removed or resolved. You would need to be OK that she uses these various devices that are currently painful to you and absorb a lot of energy and consternation, to achieve her desired distance. (Again, desired perhaps subconsciously; she may not be fully aware.)

[Oncebitten]

why keep me here if I am who she loves but allow herself to spend time with a man she has never had strong feelings for... .she has known him for years and has never been in love with him

[patientandclear]

I think you may be too credulous in accepting her description to you of what goes on with this other guy.

My ex wBPD and I were "friends" for several years after our overtly romantic relationship ended.  He would probably say to others about me what your person is saying about this other guy ("not in love, never in love".  Yet I can tell you that our relationship was deeply romantic and intimate in all but name.  And as to never in love, he said he was in love like never before at the beginning, etc.  He also always describes other women I later learned he passionately recruited for romantic relationships as "friends" who mysteriously got the wrong idea about his intentions.

Him denying that we were "in love" was more a feature of his dysfunction than an accurate description of our relationship, if that makes sense (and you're just going to have to take my word for this about what the deep "truth" was of our dynamic).

My guess would be that your person compartmentalizes and gets something quasi-intimate out of both relationships, and that works well for her.

[Notwendy]

I agree with PAC- that if all you know about this other guy is what she tells you, then that is all you know. There may or may not be more to the situation.

Why does she keep someone who is in love with her hanging around when she isn't reciprocating his affection?

This could apply to both you and this other guy. She may be paying enough attention to him to keep him hanging on in hope.

There could be more than emotionally safety in this. It is pretty flattering to have someone love you so much that you can do what you want and he would tolerate it- even at the cost of his own emotional pain- just to be able to love you. This could be a source of self esteem for someone.

As a general rule- the reason for any kind of behavior, even behavior that has an emotional or financial cost- is that the payoff of the behavior is higher than the cost. If this were not the case, then the person would not engage in this behavior.

Why is this woman doing what she is doing, when she proclaims she wants to be with you and she can? The simple answer is that there is a payoff to this behavior- she chooses to do it. Some payoffs might be safety, self esteem.  Is there a cost? Possibly, but not much risk of being left alone when there are two guys willing to tolerate it.

What is the end point of this? I want to be clear I am not telling you to end the relationship. But anyone who enforces boundaries in a relationship- he/she takes the risk that the other person may not like the boundaries and choose to end the relationship. That risk is really always there in any relationship- people have choices and we can only control our own.

I think one possible end to this is when you pay attention to your own feelings and decide what you can accept and what you can not. She's making her choices, and you can't change them. But so long as you hang in there no matter what, she can do this with no risk to her relationship with you. Establishing a boundary also gives her the choice to choose you or not. But that is a scary risk for you.

I think this can possibly end when you feel you can be OK with or without her. That is actually a better situation in or out of a relationship. We choose to be with someone because- we want to, not because we can not exist without them. If we feel OK with ourselves, then we can maintain boundaries better and not fear the risk of them so much.

It could also end when you decide that you have had enough of this kind of emotional pain, when the emotional cost of this relationship exceeds the payoffs.

Or you could arrive at accepting the fact that this is who she is, and choose to be there anyway, without wishing she was different.


I don't know how this will evolve for you. I can see you are hurting and how difficult this is for you. But the patterns between you two are not likely to change unless one of you chooses to interact in a different way- and she seems to have things in such a way that she doesn't want to change them.

 

[Oncebitten]

I absolutely take your word as to what you are saying about your relationship.


I only know what she has told me and what he has said given our handful of interactions.  She tells me she has never loved him and he even confirmed that too me.  She has an unhealthy attachment to him, in him she has a man who loves her acknowledges that they will never be together in a romantic sense, openly dates other women but is still shows her love, affection, drops everything for her.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Oncebitten]

NW

I agree that she gets something from it... .he is a safety net.  I truly believe that its me she loves, and wants to be with, but I know she knows I am a lot less toleratant than he is and she will be the first to admit, I have seen the worst of her, the outbursts, the rage, etc... .I dont think he has been exposed to that so short of him just moving on he's not going anywhere.

I also think she uses him as a way to move me off center, she knows what kind of reaction he elicits and she might act angry when I over react but I believe that is exactly what she is looking for

[Grey Kitty]

P&C and NW have suggested that she actively does things to maintain distance with you.

I concur.

There is a good chance that she doesn't really understand it or realize it herself. So she will continue to tell you things like you are the one she truly loves and wants to be with.

And yet she continues to act in one way or another to create distance. Whether it is keeping this "friend" around. Whether it is being far away physically.

I suggest you accept that this is who she is, and this is what she does, and experiencing this is the cost of being in a relationship with her. You may not be able to understand why she does it. You might have a clue. You might be completely baffled. Whatever, she's likely to continue.

[livednlearned]

OB,

The bottom line is that she is keeping this guy in her life despite how much it hurts you (knowingly).

Maybe because she needs the validation, maybe because it creates some emotional intensity that she craves (e.g. makes you jealous).

Either way, like P&C, and NW, and GK have mentioned, this is who she is.

She isn't likely to change.

If so, what's your plan?

[Oncebitten]

GK & LnL


To me it always seems to come back to the abandonment thing with her.  I really feel like she continues to keep him around as this sort of safety net, he provides her with a backup, she hates the idea of being alone so the fact that there is a man out there whom she likes, and knows cares about her provides her with some comfort. 


As far as a plan goes I really don't know what to do at this point.  She only brings him up occasionally, typically when we have been good for a long while.  She brings him up, I get upset, then a few hrs later after I have gotten all worked up she lets it go and reminds me its me she loves etc... .I feel like she uses him as this prod of sorts.

this is how it appears to me "I will mention the other man and see what he does... .ok he got all upset and it still bothers him a lot so he does still care and want to be with me"... .I realize I can't read her mind, but the things she says afterword make me wonder if she does what she does just to elicit a response from me.

As far as the physical distance thing, she has been far more receptive to spending time together since our last meeting.  That seems to have fallen by the wayside, truly believe it was just a matter of the previous meeting not living up to the fantasy. 

Truthfully the only issue I really take with her is her "friend" and her resistance to getting rid of him.  She seems to have forgiven me for what happened over the summer, can't remember the last time she brought it up. 

[Grey Kitty]

As far as a plan goes I really don't know what to do at this point.  She only brings him up occasionally, typically when we have been good for a long while.  She brings him up, I get upset, then a few hrs later after I have gotten all worked up she lets it go and reminds me its me she loves etc.

So your plan is that she will continue to do this, you will continue to get upset, and you will forgive her, and this will repeat every now and again?

[Meili]

I can't speak for her, OB, but I can tell you why I have kept other women in my life at an intimate, albeit non-physical, level when I have been in a committed relationship.

It is no secret that I wanted to marry my uBPDexgf (my x), but I maintained a relationship with my other ex (the ow) while with my x. I repeatedly tried to explain to my x that I kept the ow because I felt safe with her... .because she was like family... .because she was my best friend. Those things were all true.

It didn't matter to me how much it hurt my x that I maintained that relationship. I watched her beg, cry, and scream at me over it. I still maintained my position citing my freedom to be friends with whomever I chose as a defense.

Here's the underlying reality of that situation for me though:

I have kept other women in my life when in committed relationships not as a fall back plan or safety net, but because I would not be completely open and intimate with the person that I as in a committed relationship with. That would make me too vulnerable. The other women were not in a position to hurt me emotionally - to make me feel that I was not good enough.

I truly had no romantic interest in them, I just wanted a safe person to talk to with, not feel pressured, and relax. Because of my insecurities, I could not feel that way with the person that I was committed to. If I did something to upset the other woman, it didn't matter as much as if I did something to upset the person to whom I was committed. Losing the friend relationship was far less important to me; losing the love relationship would devastate me.

Having both in my world meant that I was never truly open and vulnerable to either. One kept my secrets while the other got the best parts. Neither got the complete me. It kept me safe.

It was also extremely unfair to both women. I justified and rationalized it ever time it was brought up. I felt so confident that what I was doing was just fine because I didn't hide it from anyone... .everyone always knew about the friend and the gf. For some reason, in my mind, that made it acceptable. It wasn't.

In the end, with regard to my latest relationship, all three of us got hurt and damaged as a result.

Could any of my exes ever made me feel safe enough for me to completely reject intimate relationships with other women? Probably not. I'm just now starting to realize the reasons behind all of this and am dealing with it in therapy. It all stems from the initial hurts of my FOO. Your gf may require the same and what you are seeing may stay that way until she does. You'll have to decide whether or not it is acceptable to you.

I tell you all of this only to provide one possibility of what might actually be going on. I cannot possibly know what your gf is doing or thinking.

[Grey Kitty]

Could any of my exes ever made me feel safe enough for me to completely reject intimate relationships with other women? Probably not. I'm just now starting to realize the reasons behind all of this and am dealing with it in therapy.

In other words, "It isn't always all about you, OB"

Meili's point is that what he did in that situation was pretty much an unavoidable consequence of himself, and his own issues... .which he's now working on... .so his next r/s someday later will have much better potential.

In Meili's case, I recall his postings about this mess as it was happening, and I'm pretty sure that neither of his exes WAS safe enough for him to be that fully intimate with, even if he didn't have those issues... .if he had been able to do so, they wouldn't have been able to handle things well without blowing something else up, I'm pretty sure.

OB, I'm pointing the finger at your GF, not you. She is showing you by her behavior (not her words!) that she isn't capable of being in a r/s with you, without keeping this other guy hanging on at some distance or other.

My guess is that even if he were to really give up on her, and end contact with her, she would probably find some other hanger on, or series of them, and keep on doing the same thing.

[Meili]

She is showing you by her behavior (not her words!) that she isn't capable of being in a r/s with you, without keeping this other guy hanging on at some distance or other.

My guess is that even if he were to really give up on her, and end contact with her, she would probably find some other hanger on, or series of them, and keep on doing the same thing.

This is exactly what I was getting at about how I handled things. When my x demanded that I cut ties with the ow, and I did it, I ran to another woman to fill the same role. The x demanded that I cut ties with her... .enter the next woman.

I've been that way in all of my adult relationships. There is always another woman that I connect with on an emotionally intimate level so that I didn't have to completely be vulnerable to my partner.

I think that accepting this about your gf is going to part of making it work for you OB. There was nothing nefarious about what I did from my perspective. I never looked at it as cheating. But, they all could be classified as emotional affairs.

[Oncebitten]

I can't speak for her, OB, but I can tell you why I have kept other women in my life at an intimate, albeit non-physical, level when I have been... .

I tell you all of this only to provide one possibility of what might actually be going on. I cannot possibly know what your gf is doing or thinking.

I think that this is probably her issue... .she has a man who she is not attached to therefore he cannot hurt her.  He loves her so she knows he wont hurt her... .

I guess this is my issue then?  Is it just jealousy?  thats what I feel it is, she thinks that I am in a competition with her friend.  That's all it really is, I just want to one up this man.  The thing is I know for me all of my anxiety is specific to him.  She mentions other male friends from time to time, even the occasional ex boyfriend that she runs into... .none of them elicit this kind of response.  Should I be okay with her doing things with him on a platonic level?

Am I wrong or is she?

[Oncebitten]

GK

she keeps telling me if I was closer then we wouldn't have these issues and she wouldn't maintain any contact with him.  I guess what upsets me the most is that "this" issue upsets me but she doesn't seem to care.  She tells me I am being selfish bc I dont want her spending time with him.  But then the next day she will profess her love, and tell me how she doesnt want me to share her or her time with anyone else, she wants me to have all of it.

Should I just be ok with her doing whatever with her friend?  At times I think she does this to elicit that jealous response... .I think she likes it, strokes her ego to still have me working for her attention.

Any time she acts jealous she tells me how its ok, and she is just territorial and has to protect whats hers... .I guess I am not allowed to feel the same way

[once removed]

Should I be okay with... .

Should I just be ok with

im not sure these are "should" questions, certainly not ones we can answer for you.

the question, as i see it is are you? theres no right or wrong answer.

[Oncebitten]

Once


well I am not okay with it... .I guess the reason I ask is I want to know if I am being immature?  Am I being unreasonable by fighting this "friendship"

[Grey Kitty]

I guess this is my issue then?  Is it just jealousy?

$.02 on "just jealousy", from my perspective. I'm not normally a jealous guy.

In the last ~7 years of my marriage, there were four guys I felt jealous about. I would note that my wife is an incorrigible, unstoppable flirt, and there were dozens of guys she flirted with that I wasn't jealous of. I'm not prone to irrational jealousy.

In each of these instances, there was something more going on with the guy. One was an emotional affair. The next was a sexual encounter (even though they kept their clothes on), followed by months of my wife obsessing on the guy, whom I respect and came to find him as a close friend. The one after that was part of a complicated, messy open r/s, and I chose to let my wife get involved with him, but I still had twinges of jealousy a few times during the r/s. The last was one that she chose to have sex with despite my telling her it wasn't OK, and that plus later fallout ultimately blew up our marriage.

Perhaps more than you needed to know, but I came to appreciate something about my jealousy: That FEELING was important. It was telling me "Hey, GK--there is *something* going on with wife and (guy you are jealous of), and you need to know about it!" The feeling was also very accurate in my case. It was pretty obvious for the last three, but with the first one (the EA), I didn't realize until later how accurate my jealousy was.

That said, my feeling of jealousy wasn't telling me WHAT to do about it. Merely that there was something going on, and that it mattered.

I don't believe that monogamous relationships are the only ones that work. I've personally been successfully monogamous for a decade, and been in an open r/s that worked for a year+. Some people cannot be monogamous. Other people cannot be in a non-monogamous r/s. I don't believe that there is an absolute "right" answer.

Instead, the question for you is this -- Can you make this r/s work with this woman, the way she is? And here's how I think she is:

She will keep this guy on a string, and if he gets away or she cuts him off for you, there will be another one. NOTE: Her actions and her words don't match on this. Resolve the conflict by believing her actions. And feel free to tell her that when she tries to reassure you with her words!

Any time she acts jealous she tells me how its ok, and she is just territorial and has to protect whats hers... .I guess I am not allowed to feel the same way

She won't let you do the same thing, or at least not without a big blowup fight over it, one which may or may not end your r/s with her.

Nope, it isn't fair. Personally, I ended up letting my wife do these things (mostly, depending on circumstances, though)... .and also ended up standing up and not letting her shut down my intimate friendships with other women.

But you have to choose what you can live with.

[once removed]

Am I being unreasonable by fighting this "friendship"

i would say youre being unrealistic by fighting this "friendship", and setting yourself in the karpman drama triangle.

thats different than being unreasonable for feeling uncomfortable with it, or it being a deal breaker for you.

fighting it is not accepting it, one way or the other.

https://bpdfamily.com/content/karpman-drama-triangle

[Grey Kitty]

(cross-posted with my longer reply, but I've got two cents for you on it)

well I am not okay with it... .I guess the reason I ask is I want to know if I am being immature?  Am I being unreasonable by fighting this "friendship"

$.01: You are who you are, your feelings are real, and calling yourself "immature" or "unreasonable" to talk yourself out of your feelings isn't going to work.

$.01: Expecting her to change and drop this friendship to make you feel secure and safe in your r/s with her is unreasonable on your part.

[Turkish]

This topic has been locked due to reaching its post limit.  The discussion is continued here:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=305964.0