What are the advantages of marriage?

[SamwizeGamgee]

Alright, I am asking a ridiculously dumb question.  I don't mean it sarcastically either.  I realize that in order for me to numb myself from the negatives in my marriage to my uBPDw, I have numbed myself to the positives also.  I can only ask myself the question "what was I thinking, why did I get married?" so many times.  I've been a caretaker far too long.
I consider myself married as a contract right now.  I don't feel love or longing for my wife or marriage.  But, I'm trying to be fair to the decision I am making, whether to stay or go. 
Can someone remind me what's good about a marriage?
Although this is a little light-hearted, and even though it sounds like I'm joking, I wonder if I really am.  What's good?  What's in it for me?
Thanks to all for some guidance! 

[formflier]

There is some sort of structure to your life... .your family.  Can you remind me again about the size and ages of your family?

A marriage is usually the adult way of maturing yourself.  Except now you don't have parents, you have a spouse and yourself.  You get to use all of your life lessons to evaluate your life, make decisions, evaluate your life, rinse... repeat...

Can you remind me again if you are particularly religious?

FF

[Fian]

Off the top of my head  :

• Frequent sex, low risk of STD
• Stable environment to raise children
• Someone to take care of so that you aren't always focused on yourself
• Someone to help you in areas that you are weak
• Someone to call 911 when you can't do it yourself
• Division of labor for household chores
• Financial support when you are sick or infirm
• Someone to share life with, cry with, lean on

[SamwizeGamgee]

FF - D18, D15, S12, D9, D6. Stable family, all same parents, first marriage.
I get it that marriage, and any close adult relationship, is a refiner's fire, so to speak.   I've matured and learned for sure.  Unfortunately, suffering has been my teacher in married life.
I'm religious in that I hold Christian teachings as true.  I am a strong believer, but, have a very open attitude to all.  I regularly attend church services on Sunday and work with kids and youth in Sunday school and one day midweek.  I chose my bride since she was of the same faith - something I consider(ed) important.  All that glitters is not gold, however.

@Fian - well, I think that might be an issue.  I'm only hitting on a few cylinders then - maybe that's why I am missing the good news message in marriage.
- mostly sexless marriage for 18 of 20 years, better a bit now since I've pretty much said my needs weren't met.
- stable for the kids on my part. Mom's around, but alternatingly pious and devoted mom, with overwhelmed depressed and snide mom at other times.
- taking care of someone, hmm. I have five kids and various pets.  I'm trying to give up my caretaker role that I had with my wife. 
- someone to help my weaknesses.  I'll grant that.
- call 911. I'll grant that. I think she would
- division of labor.  Well, she picks what's important to her and is hurt if I didn't do it her way / time.  I did majority of meals, as much as child care as possible when home, and all the home upkeep care.  She does some laundry and vast amounts of picking up.
- financial support - it has been me, for me, by me.
- share life with - nope. I have to close all door hatches and windows around her emotional storms.  I wouldn't cry or lean on her to save my life.
In sum, I guess there are some things good about a marriage.  I will keep trying to seek out and count my blessings.  I'm hesitant a bit because the good things are looking like "sugar that helps the poison go down."

[formflier]

So... .What happens when you ask for sex?

Ff

[SamwizeGamgee]

So... .What happens when you ask for sex?

I'm not sure I'd be exaggerating to say I got an 80 to 90% rejection rate.  Off the top of my head,  I think her primary answer is "we'll see," if it's not an excuse or denial.  It's  not usually in a negotiation way, more like more hoops to jump through.   I noticed recently, as I'm paying more attention, that if I mention sex or anything to do with it, I'll catch a quick microsecond of her expressing something in between a sneer and rolling eyes. She doesn't realize it, but, I think the nonverbal message  leaks a little truth.  I used to have a saying that " she's not happy unless I'm not happy."

[formflier]

 
Have you guys ever done joint counseling? 

Have you ever asked her directly about her expectations of YOUR sex life... .?

What does she expect you to do  with 80% rejection rate.  I'm a metric guy... .I would hazard to guess that "normal" is about 25%.

Personally... .my rejection rate is very low.  However, lately I've not been much in the mood.  I don't find the rages and BPD attitude to be very attractive.

We all find a "normal" in our "abnormal" relationships.  I'm sure many look at my stories and wonder "how I put up with it". 

I have a hard time seeing myself in a r/s with that high of a sexual rejection rate. 

Does she offer... .um... ."other services" when she doesn't want to have sex?

Do you think if this number moved to a 50% reject rate... .that your outlook on the r/s would improve dramatically?

FF 

[Fian]

In sum, I guess there are some things good about a marriage.  I will keep trying to seek out and count my blessings.  I'm hesitant a bit because the good things are looking like "sugar that helps the poison go down."

Yeah, I was guessing that you would be saying a lot on the list you were not receiving.  On the other hand, you did see some benefits from marriage that you weren't counting before.  I remember a woman who had just gone through a divorce with a loser husband, who after the divorce missed some little things that he had done for her.  Even in a dysfunctional relationship, there is usually something you get out of it.  On the sex side of things, how much sex were you getting before you met her?  In my case it was 0 as I was waiting for marriage, and it would be 0 after unless I remarried.  So while 20% sounds pretty low, on the other hand it is still higher than 0.

[SamwizeGamgee]

FF -
joint counseling. No.  Up until her awareness increased recently, everything wrong was my fault, in her eyes, so there was nothing joint counseling could do.  Ironically, when I felt I could trust her with a little openness, and finally told her I had been going to T sessions - she was devastated  as though I had betrayed her at the core.
Sex life - Recently I disclosed that I thought (after much denial while trying to cope) that sex was after all maybe a need in marriage, and my needs weren't being met.  Until then it seemed like sex was to placate me, but more usually withheld to manipulate me, and then it happened when she wanted.  I am not sure what she expected, or what she thinks would happen in a sexless marriage.
Other services - not really.  Every so often she may do manual work.  But, being with someone who is that begrudging and dispassionate about any sexual 'services' is not conducive to the mood.  In fact, if it wasn't so scarce as it is, I would comment that sexual boredom is a huge problem.  She has no real imagination, or seems to have no drive or desire (unless it what she wants at the moment - which is rare).
I actually think that if our sex life was closer to what I wanted, I might be fine managing this marriage, even with the BPD baggage.  Not as it is though.

Fian - True!  I guess from that point of view, even bad sex is good sex.  Based on religious convictions, we waited until marriage for any sexual contact.  Years prior, I was in a long-term, very satisfying physical relationship that stopped short of intercourse, but, was great in all regards.

[formflier]

OK... .so your religion drove both of you choices about sex before marriage.   

Somehow... .I would figure out how to ask her if her religious view drive her choices about sex after marriage.

1 Corinthians 7:4
The wife does not have authority over her own body but yields it to her husband. In the same way, the husband does not have authority over his own body but yields it to his wife.

Lately I have been finding my wife very unattractive... .due to the BPDish stuff.  She is a very attractive woman.  Not really sure how I'm going to move past this... .  For a long time we have had a very full sex life.

The last few times she has asked for sex... .we had sex.  I rarely reach out to her anymore.

FF

[Lucky Jim]

Hey Sam, Perhaps we should make a distinction between "marriage" and "marriage to a pwBPD"?  The usual rules don't apply, in my view, to a BPD marriage.  It took me years to realize that there was something "off" in my marriage which was way beyond a normal, healthy r/s.  So, maybe your question should be rephrased as follows: "What are the advantages of marriage to a person suffering from BPD"?  Tough question, I know.  

LuckyJim

[SamwizeGamgee]

Now that the whole internet knows about my sex life, I had different ideas too.
I can talk about, and quantify, the sex life, at least the physical portion.  But, I have clearly missed the emotional and spiritual relationship.  Maybe I should have addressed that.  It seems to me that would be as important as a physical relation.  So, on this matter, I can't track when I last felt emotionally intimate with my wife, or ever. 

And that goes to LJ's point.  Perhaps there are not emotional advantages of marriage to a pwBPD traits.  On second thought, my suffering has brought me great maturity and perspective.  I'm on my way to being a survivor, and hopefully can have compassion on others who suffer.  Maybe I can inspire and give hope to others as well. 

There, I found an advantage to having a harmful marriage. 

[SamwizeGamgee]

Somehow... .I would figure out how to ask her if her religious view drive her choices about sex after marriage.

1 Corinthians 7:4
The wife does not have authority over her own body but yields it to her husband. In the same way, the husband does not have authority over his own body but yields it to his wife.

Lately I have been finding my wife very unattractive... .due to the BPDish stuff.
... .

Oh, I almost laughed in spite of myself when this made me think of using scripture to talk about sex in an encouraging way.  Oh my, that would be an interesting event.  She's kept most of her saintly martyr persona, between the self-loathing breakdowns anyway. 

I get it when you say you find your wife unattractive.  After my enlightenment, I learned to see my wife as the whole person.  I see our dark history and remember it.  I keep this perspective to help me cope with the lack of intimacy. 

[formflier]

Oh, I almost laughed in spite of myself when this made me think of using scripture to talk about sex in an encouraging way.  Oh my, that would be an interesting event.  She's kept most of her saintly martyr persona, between the self-loathing breakdowns anyway. 
 

Here is the thing.  Why would you not choose to do this?  There is history to support this.  It appears you both used religious belief to modify your sexual behavior prior to marriage, why would you no attempt to use religious belief to modify sexual behavior after marriage.

Especially if you are deeply unhappy about your sex life... .

Is it your job to only have conversations with your wife about "non-triggering" topics?  Hmmm... .bonus question... .what do we call that around here?  (serious question to answer)

Let her deal with uncomfortable feelings.  If she wants to self-loath... .let her.  Use boundaries to protect yourself.

Thoughts? 

FF

[SamwizeGamgee]

OK. I see what you're saying.  I like to catch my own double standards when I can, and see how they make me stuck. 

Given that, especially when it comes to highly personal and intimate things like sex, I am _very_ cautious about avoiding the feeling that I am coercing, preaching, persuading, or enticing, someone to do something they are the least bit uncomfortable with.  I would want it to be willing and free - or not at all.  Further, speaking of double standards, I desire to be with someone who is more like me in sex drive and interests.  I think that stuff comes from deep down.  If she does something that I want, and not because she wants, I feel that I am making her do it. I'm very independently minded, and I have the utmost respect for everyone being able to do what they feel good about. 

There was a movie I watched a long time ago, I think I remember it starred Jennifer Aniston.  In the movie, it depicted the arc and final failure of their relationship.  One "argument" and discussion had Aniston's character tell the guy that he should to the dishes. He said, "I do the dishes." She said, yes, but I want you to want to do the dishes. The guy said, "but I will never want to do the dishes." 

So, though I may want something more from intimacy, and she can have sex with me, I doubt she will ever want what I want, or that we will connect, or have that in common.

Plus, there was a psychotic eruption about two years ago in which she basically said that she had been having sex unwillingly over the years.  In essence, my interpretation of what sex meant to her, went from a chore, to sin, to a crime - in my understanding of her mind.  I'm not really able to recover from that.   We didn't have sex after that for about 10 months or more, and only got back to it when she basically pleaded.  I'm not thinking religious teachings are going to modify this.

[Fian]

Here is the thing.  Why would you not choose to do this?  There is history to support this.  It appears you both used religious belief to modify your sexual behavior prior to marriage, why would you no attempt to use religious belief to modify sexual behavior after marriage.

Especially if you are deeply unhappy about your sex life... .

Is it your job to only have conversations with your wife about "non-triggering" topics?  Hmmm... .bonus question... .what do we call that around here?  (serious question to answer)

Let her deal with uncomfortable feelings.  If she wants to self-loath... .let her.  Use boundaries to protect yourself.

Thoughts? 

FF

In my case, I have used the verse whenever she suggests that we stop having sex, but I use it slightly differently.  I don't use it to tell her that she has to have sex with me.  I use it when she proposes that we stop having sex, and I say I don't think it is a good idea because of the verse.  She is still free to not having sex with me, but I would be sinning if I refused to have sex with her.

Sam, I am on the other side of the "I want you to want to do the dishes."  My wife does not give me credit for doing the right things, because I am only doing them because she asked, not because that is what I wanted.  I hate it.  One, my thoughts are my own, she usually can't read them correctly, and two, I can't control my heart but I can control my actions.  I find it to be a defeatist attitude in a relationship.  Since you are perceived at having the wrong thoughts and are therefore intrinsically bad, your actions no longer matter.  You are just defective, and in my wife's mind she is justified in pulling away in the relationship.  Toss in perfectionism, and if things aren't perfect then they are awful in my wife's mind and she pulls away.

In regards to my own situation with sex right now, it has become weaponized.  If she is not fully satisfied with the sex she gets angry or cries.  It is at best a 50/50 proposition.  It often works out like this.  We have a great day together and I think that maybe she will say yes to sex.  She agrees but is fearful of the outcome (I am too).  We have sex, she deems it a failure, and gets angry or cries.  Now the day has turned from great to awful.  We avoid sex for a few weeks, but due to FF's verse we try again and the cycle repeats.

[SamwizeGamgee]

Fian, I am sorry to hear this about your situation.  I know that real intimacy, a connection though sex is an early casualty in a disordered relationship. Weaponized is a good way to describe it.
My wife was mad at me when I made her really good omelets (her favorite) and brought them up to her in bed as a nice breakfast in bed, with no implications, strings attached, or whatever (I had been up for some time, and didn't sleep in the same room at the time anyway).  She was mad because in her words I "did it to be nice, not because I loved her."  :)amned if I do, damned if I don't.  So much for wanting to wash the dishes!  

It sounds like your scripture verse isn't working the way it was intended.

[Grey Kitty]

Being sexually compatible is an important part of a marriage for most people. (Aside: I believe this from a pragmatic perspective; I'm not qualified to say whether it goes with, against, or alongside any scripture!)

That means finding each other attractive.

That means wanting a similar amount of sex. Usually one partner wants it more than the other; If there is a middle ground which works for both partners, I'd call it compatible. If one wants it ~once/year and the other wants it ~twice/day, it clearly isn't compatible!

That means wanting the same kind of sex, or at least close enough that you both enjoy it, even if there maybe *something* that one of you likes and the other doesn't, or doesn't nearly as much.

Sexual incompatibility doesn't mean that either partner is "wrong" any more than it would be for one partner to want 5 kids and the other to not want any--Just that for the two of you to stay together, at least one of you is going to have to choose to give up something important.

Sexual incompatibility does mean that it will be much harder to make your marriage keep working, though.

In essence, my interpretation of what sex meant to her, went from a chore, to sin, to a crime - in my understanding of her mind.  I'm not really able to recover from that.   We didn't have sex after that for about 10 months or more, and only got back to it when she basically pleaded.

I hope you can let go of some of that, perhaps by understanding that for a pwBPD, immediate mood and feelings will change history to match. In other words, at the time she said that, she believed it. Then later (i.e. when she was begging), she didn't. And she's incapable of really seeing the contradiction in that.

[formflier]

  I would want it to be willing and free - or not at all.

    Here comes that FF... .challenging you again.  Can you see how this is black or white thinking?  

Listen... .2 or 3 times ago that I had sex with my wife.  I can honestly say I would rather have skipped it.  I have declined several times and she was ok with it... .sometimes she is not ok with it.  Here is the thing... .I had no "real" reason other than I didn't want to.  I DID know that our "amount" of sex was a bit lower as of late, so I made a choice to value the relationship over an above my personal desires of the moment.

I'm well aware that my wife has done the same for me.  Yes... .sometimes she plays martyr before hand... .(rarely after)... .and sometimes even after she plays martyr I still press ahead.  Other times I validate and skip it.

The last time she offered to "have sex if you really want it... .and you are willing to do the work" I knew that she was starting to feel bad, and that many others had sore throats in the family.  So... .I validated... .rubbed her neck some... .wished her a good nights sleep and skipped sex.

I'm typing all this to "show" that there are a variety of types of sex or reasons to skip sex I would encourage you to use all of them

 I feel that I am making her do it. I'm very independently minded, and I have the utmost respect for everyone being able to do what they feel good about.  

Frankly... .I think this is your issue to work through.  I would caution using "extreme language" like "making her do it"... .when in reality you are advocating for your own desires.

Trust that she is an adult... .that as an adult she realizes that NO means NO and if she really wants to turn you down... .she will use the word NO.

As will you... .if it ever gets to that point.

And to be clear to all reading this... .I do believe a clear NO should be respected... .in all cases.

So, though I may want something more from intimacy, and she can have sex with me, I doubt she will ever want what I want, or that we will connect, or have that in common.

Again... .your issue to solve.  If she values the relationship enough to "take one for the team" when she doesn't "want" to... .I think you need to count that as a win and move along to other issues.

Plus, there was a psychotic eruption about two years ago in which she basically said that she had been having sex unwillingly over the years.  In essence, my interpretation of what sex meant to her, went from a chore, to sin, to a crime - in my understanding of her mind.  I'm not really able to recover from that.   We didn't have sex after that for about 10 months or more, and only got back to it when she basically pleaded.  I'm not thinking religious teachings are going to modify this.

So... .given what you know now from lessons and such at BPD family.  How should this be handled... .assuming she said it today?

Follow up question.  Given what you know about BPD... .what is she "really" asking when she proposes/asks "I think we should stop having sex... ."?


I'm glad to be learning more about your story.  Thanks for being so open about such intimate issues.

FF

[SamwizeGamgee]

Good point GreyKitty - There are so many things that are hard enough in marriage between two average, healthy people!  Adding sexual incompatibility to it is just asking for more conflict.

I do get a sense of peace when I accept that things are what they are. Rather than contorting through what I can do to be better, or change things, when I pause to accept that there are fundamental differences between my wife and I, it just sounds right.  We aren't compatible. No blame, responsibility, right or wrong, no history or excuse needed, it just isn't making either of us better at this point.  

Now, I have to take that acceptance and evolve it into action.  The BPD is just an accessory to that motivation to act.

[SamwizeGamgee]

@FF - our responses crossed in the internet.  I'll give more thought to your post. Thanks.

[Grey Kitty]

We aren't compatible. No blame, responsibility, right or wrong, no history or excuse needed, it just isn't making either of us better at this point.

Yup, but given how many children you have and how many of them are still young, you may still choose to stay married as the best thing you can do for your children, despite the incompatibilities.

Hard question: Can you live with these? (Including sexual incompatibility) And if you prefer to stay together despite them, what do you need to find for yourself to make it work?

One bit of advice I've heard, especially in a situation where splitting would harm your children is ":)o what you have to do to stay married and stay sane."

It may help you to (mentally) explore those options in as much detail as you explore options of ending your marriage.

[Lucky Jim]

when I pause to accept that there are fundamental differences between my wife and I, it just sounds right.  We aren't compatible. No blame, responsibility, right or wrong, no history or excuse needed, it just isn't making either of us better at this point.  

Well said, Samwize.  Ideally, a marriage is greater than the sum of its parts.  To me, that's the advantage of marriage.  Yet my marriage was making me miserable.  I once said to my T that I yearned to flourish again, which I deemed impossible within the confines of marriage to a pwBPD.  Maybe others can do it; I couldn't.

LJ

[Wrongturn1]

Here is the thing.  Why would you not choose to do this?  There is history to support this.  It appears you both used religious belief to modify your sexual behavior prior to marriage, why would you no attempt to use religious belief to modify sexual behavior after marriage.

Years ago, during the period in our marriage when I would ask for sex from my wife pretty much whenever I wanted it, she would reject me probably 70 to 90 percent of the time.  She would still reject me this often or even more if I still asked every time I am in the mood, but my acceptance rate is much better these days because I have learned to only initiate on the approximately 5 days per month that she is likely to be receptive based on her cycle.  So these days she rejects me only about 40 to 50 percent of the time, which feels like an improvement over how things used to be. 

But regarding "the verse", I don't use it on my wife (we are both Christians).  She knows the Bible, including the verse, so she knows that withholding goes against scripture.  We both know it.  So if I quote the verse when she turns me down, to me it comes across as coercive and manipulative, and I would be concerned about alienating her from both me and the Bible by doing that. 

For that matter, if I started quoting scriptures to her every time she does something that's out of line with scripture (refusing to forgive, gossiping, worrying, negativity, judging, dealing harshly with our kids, etc.), I would be figuratively beating her over the head with a Bible many times a day, every day.  So for me to selectively pull out the verse when she refuses to give me the sex that I want/need(?) would not likely result in a positive outcome for either of us. 

Reading all this that I've just written also makes me think, gee, Wrongturn1, you're not much of a spiritual leader for your wife, so that's something I'll be considering as well.

[SamwizeGamgee]

I spent 2016 mostly in peace as I worked on myself internally.  I immersed myself in hobbies and kid activities also.  I avoided conflict and reached a point of acceptance having worked through the "grieving" of my marriage.  I did all I could to accept marriage as what it was and be happy.  The happiness is sticking, that's good.  The satisfaction and hope for the marriage has gone.  So, I think I have explored was to manage indefinitely, and I think I'm finally shaking off the stupor I was in.  Inside, I'm starting to move again.  Given the kids, and the finances, and the physical stability, I should just find a way to stay married, but, I'm not sure that's going to work out. 

There is also one practical matter, in legal precedent, a 20 year marriage has been traditionally the cut-off for lifetime alimony in my jurisdiction.  The courts are reforming a little bit, to where each case is considered on its merits, and they no longer expect a divorced woman to be helpless in the work world.  But, it's a big gamble if I know the marriage is done. I should do it, and get on with restructuring.

I distance run as a hobby.  I know from experience that at some point, on some long runs, you are just done.  No water, energy gels, massage, food, pep talk, caffeine, walking, no nothing can bring it back. 

[SamwizeGamgee]

... .
One bit of advice I've heard, especially in a situation where splitting would harm your children is ":)o what you have to do to stay married and stay sane."
... .

That's the crux, I'll suffer as long, and as much as needed, to do what's best for the kids.  In honesty though, what is best for them?  I think they sense more than they let on.  Would splitting help? or hurt?

[formflier]

  In honesty though, what is best for them?  

Only you can answer this.  There is so much nuance in every relationship.

I would encourage anyone that is considering splitting... .to thoroughly understand the legal system and if you do split... .work every angle to your advantage... .and the advantage of your kid.

My opinion is that most BPDish people get more unreasonable... .especially in the first year or two. 

Sometimes after divorce is final and "real" boundaries are established... .there can be a calming.

Usually... .it seems to me... .is that a split results in worse things for the kids... .for a while. 

But again... .every situation is so different. 

Do you have any idea how divorce is handled in her family?

Likely that will be a good clue

FF

[Grey Kitty]

What would splitting do to your kids, and would it be better or worse for them?

Well, if they end up with your wife full time, and you had no chance to see them, raise them, or influence them, I imagine that would be worse for them. From what I know of custody, some are old enough that the courts would probably honor their choice of which parent to be with, and some aren't. You and your lawyer can speculate on how likely that outcome is.

Even if that doesn't happen, nobody will enjoy the stress of the splitting period.

After the legal battles are done... .or mid-way but when you have split custody, it is up to you to figure out what you can do to make your kids life better.

You might want to post on the "Co-parenting after the split" board, asking what it is like.

You could also read or post on the board for children who had parents with BPD, and compare people whose non- and BPD parent split with ones where they stayed together in a frozen loveless marriage, or cold war marriage... .to see what sort of things impacted them and how.

You can educate yourself, but ultimately, you have to choose what you think will be best for your kids, and you will never  know what the other path would have been like.

[SamwizeGamgee]

Thank you all.  A long while ago, I followed and asked questions on a board for children of BPD parents.  I saw very personal, and attentive answers - without the clarity of whether it's better to have split or stayed.  It seems we are all human after all, and all unique.  There are so many variables.  I found the adult children's responses very valuable.  I'll look into the co-parenting lists too.  I read and post occasionally on the divorcing boards too.

As to the sub-topic here of religion.  I relied on my religious belief set when I dated and courted my wife.  I believed that with someone of the same faith, and importantly the same conviction, we would make a good couple.  I think the decision was more rational that emotional.  Immediately after the wedding, I was hit by remorse and regret.  I realize now that just having faith, even strong and shared, does not mean the union is going to work.  I actually feel a bit down on religion for that.  I feel like I did my part, followed the counsel, and ended up here regardless.  I am not inclined to reach again for faith in religion to fix this marriage.  

It's a good philosophical discussion about whether this was God's plan for me all along, to marry into such a one-sided and difficult marriage so that it would make me a better, stronger, more compassionate person.  But, that's a whole different side-show discussion.

[formflier]

I am not inclined to reach again for faith in religion to fix this marriage.  
 

It's been 6 months or a bit longer since I've been in "Biblical Counseling".  More my wife's idea than mine.

In deciding to go down that path... .and afterwards... .I've done lots of thinking about faith and our marriage.

It is my belief that if two people share the same faith... .that helps a bunch in marriage.  The unfortunate thing with pwBPD is that what they believe can change by the moment.  Their ability to consistently turn their stated beliefs into consistent... .relationship building action is quite limited.

As well all know... .it's frustrating (to put it mildly)

I would encourage you to continue to think through the roll of your faith in your life, your marriage... .and your wife's life.  I would encourage you to reach out to your faith to "improve" your relationship... .I would stay away from terms like "fix". 

I decided that it was not my job to "save my wife" from the inconsistencies in her beliefs.  I shouldn't persecute her either.

Practically speaking that means that if she uses faith to "get" me... .and it ends up boxing her into an uncomfortable position... .that's her problem to solve... .not mine. 

I am under no illusions that faith will "fix" my wife... .but I think it can be one of many different things that may take us a step in the right direction.

FF

[Lucky Jim]

In honesty though, what is best for them?  I think they sense more than they let on.  Would splitting help? or hurt?

Hey Samwize, I would take the opposite tack from GK and suggest that Staying can also be harmful on children.  While still married to my BPDxW, I used to ponder what sort of an example I was providing to my kids.  I like to think that I demonstrated that one need not remain in an abusive situation and that change is possible in life.  Whether any of this will sink in with them (they are teenagers) remains an open question.

LuckyJim

[SamwizeGamgee]

Yes. I'm trying to be aware of impact on the kids.  In fact, that's the sum of my reasons for staying at all.

I don't want to be a role model as a selfish ass who got a divorce because he wasn't "happy."

I accept that staying might provide stability.  Although kids might have deep thoughts at some point, school kids are likely concerned with "what about me?"  Who picks me up, can I stay in band, who feeds me? Who disciplines me? what can I get away with?

Two unhappy parents at home fighting will still at least feed them and shuttle them to activities and pay for stuff.  My wife, for all the manipulation, projection, internal fear and despair still shuttles kids, checks homework, dresses them, and occasionally cooks.  I bet a lot of kids aren't so well off.  Which makes it hard to solidify reasons to leave the marriage and not feel like an oversensitive, unhappy, mid-life crisis, bored guy.

I don't fight anymore.  But, the point is, the kids have a home base that is not threatened.  They don't need to know that I'm dying inside thinking about spending time with my wife. They don't need to know that my marriage is unfulfilling.  However, I know something is wrong since I usually have to talk to their mom as though I'm coaxing or sidestepping a toddler. There's no love, no married happiness, no connection.  I am completely blank on positives about marriage (well, somewhat, as we discussed in this thread).  So I know I'm not setting a role model for a meaningful adult relationship.  What the kids have to look forward to, I don't know.

A phrase I like is that it's better to be from a broken home than in a broken home.  I think that was Dr. Phil, but, I don't recall. I'm with you LJ, on thinking that I can demonstrate better behavior by getting out of this relationship and focus on me and the kids.  I am haunted by my own admission that if my kids were in a marriage like this, I would drop what I was doing, if they asked, and help them move out right then and there.  I am an advocate of divorce when necessary these days.

[Grey Kitty]

I don't want to be a role model as a selfish ass who got a divorce because he wasn't "happy."

That isn't a fair description of anything you are considering doing. What you experience with your wife is far more than just not being "happy" and you know it. We've lived it; we know it too.

I don't fight anymore.  But, the point is, the kids have a home base that is not threatened.  They don't need to know that I'm dying inside thinking about spending time with my wife. They don't need to know that my marriage is unfulfilling.  However, I know something is wrong since I usually have to talk to their mom as though I'm coaxing or sidestepping a toddler. There's no love, no married happiness, no connection.

You shouldn't be talking to kids about this. Not fair to them.

But they notice anyways. They are aware. Those are the unwritten but followed rules of your house, and they live them, and will form their idea of what a marriage should look like from watching yours. (They may aim for the opposite instead of the same, but it will have an impact, for sure)

Anyhow, I also want to clarify that I'm aware that there are costs to staying as well as to leaving, and deciding which is worse is hard. There really are no easy choices here.

[SamwizeGamgee]

GK - I know you're in the right place.  And I made the first statement you quote as an extreme overstatement for effect.  I don't want to be that guy.  But, I also put that out there as a way my actions could be spun for those who don't know (i.e. mom to the kids in a worse case scenario).

 I appreciate that you see it's no easy place to be in.  That's for all of us suffering second-hand BPD.  The choice sometimes seems like a choice between cancer or amputation. 

[formflier]

  That's for all of us suffering second-hand BPD.  The choice sometimes seems like a choice between cancer or amputation. 

Change suffering to "affected by"... .I think it will be more productive in your thinking.

I think you are getting great advice.  I'm less interested in the decision you make than I am in your mindset about making a choice... .

Frankly, either choice made with "victim mentality" or with any thinking that "you had no other choice"... .or "you were made to do this"... .is not going to do you well in the future.  Again... .that thought applies to staying and going.

Either choice made as a conscious decision on your part... .will likely turn out much better.

Emotionally... .I get what you are saying about "suffering".  Emotions do play a role in making your decision, but... .in my opinion... .they should play a minor role.

Thoughts?

FF

[Grey Kitty]

The choice sometimes seems like a choice between cancer or amputation. 

Try not to make this choice worse than it is. If you focus on it that way, it helps you get frozen in indecision. (Yes, I know that feeling all too well!) I once had a therapist call that kind of thing "awfulizing"... .

I'd suggest you work out and write down as detailed a description as you can of the a couple likely scenarios if you start divorce proceedings. Really try to imagine what it will be like to go through it, and to get to the other end, and how it will be for your kids. And try to compare that to staying. Perhaps work on some "what-if" questions as to what it would take to make it worth taking action. And anything you can do to improve things.

Please remember that many long-term stayers have found it possible to pretty much eliminate the abuse in their marriage, and when it does show up, shut it down immediately. That is pretty achievable, even without your wife working with you. (You will not get a full emotional partner in a marriage that way, as you already know)

[formflier]

Please remember that many long-term stayers have found it possible to pretty much eliminate the abuse in their marriage, and when it does show up, shut it down immediately. 

This is me and my r/s.

I would say I'm about 90% there. 

Every so often... .the "other woman" shows up and we have a good time for a few days.  I am careful to "not get too close", but I do "lean in" some.

I have a long list of self care activities I can turn to... .when it's needed.  I am 100% unapologetic for taking time for myself... .when I need it.

And... .I can't emphasize this part enough I have a really good support structure.

The issue below popped up today... .out of the blue.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=305986.0

I wrote a draft... .texted my psychologist.  Then posted here.  Then spoke with my P for 10-15 minutes...

I was generally in the right direction without my support system.  However... .P knows me... .made me use less words.  No drama.


Then I sent the email soon after.

I'm going to go to the gym and de-stress... .in about 10 minutes. 


FF

[SamwizeGamgee]

Thanks all for the responses.  I have developed a lot of habits and skills that make living with my uBPDw almost undetectable most of the time.  I know what you mean about being able to do the right things and live "comfortably" with BPD.  Unfortunately it involves very rigid filtered speech on my part, total bulllet-proofing of my feelings, suppression of my wants and needs as it concerns marriage. On the good side, I run a lot to cope, and do my therapy thinking, meditation, and really doing a stand up job of parenting.  I also am super aware of validation and listening.  A great deal of good comes out of my learned good behavior as a result of living alongside what I found out much later was BPD behavior.

GK I'll accept the challenge to write down scenarios, and steps with the possibilities ahead. It will give my rational mind something to do to take a load off my feeling mind.
I kind of think the sleeping giant of my psyche is waking, not to save a marriage but to end it.  This will let me forecast better.

[Lucky Jim]

Hey Sam, Let me add my two cents to the mix: don't rule out greater happiness, which I think should be a goal whether you decide to stay or leave.  I'm currently in a healthy r/s with a kind and caring woman who is quite supportive.  It's night and day from my marriage.  Not saying it's perfect (I don't look for that), but I'm a lot happier and relaxed when I'm with her.  We have fun together, which makes everything else seem lighter.

Of course it's been rough sledding with my kids, and separation & divorce was extremely stressful.  I don't want to sugarcoat anything.  Divorce is hard on all involved.  Yet staying is hard, too.

I concur w/GK: you are not a selfish ass!  So don't put yourself down.

LuckyJim

[SamwizeGamgee]

I'm making a chart now.  There are too many "what ifs" to make it smooth.  But, it is bringing up some points to ponder. 

I think I have the life skills to stay functionally married, but, it would be through force of will, and not happiness, unity, or purpose.  It would be me accepting my sentence, as far as I can tell.

I would like to know from those staying and doing okay if they have benefits to the marriage.  I can't dig up any special love for my wife, and I can't think of what to rekindle.  It never was there very much.  There's not a time that I can think of that I'd like to go back to, sort of like I have nothing to shoot for if I tried staying.  The chart on the "staying" side of things is pretty much "more of the same."  I've defused the triggers, and can avoid huge blow outs.  However, I can't last like this.  I have two tracks for staying - staying long haul to the visible end.  And, staying for a few more years to keep things together for stability with the kids.  Staying married makes financial planning easier, with clear variables as to housing, and major purchases, and retirement later. 

On the proceeding down the divorce route, there are two major branches.  First I go unilateral and push it my way.  Second it goes bilateral in which we reach some agreement and make our peace. 

The surprise attack and hard-line divorce might be most effective, in that she will probably breakdown and shut down long enough for me to make big legal gains.  But, she won't stay down forever and that will probably end up with an adversarial relationship leading at least to parental alienation, if not constant legal and personal grudges. 

The unclear way is how to get to a peaceful split that would help with productive co-parenting.  This is an enigma.  I don't know what will happen or how to get there.

I reminded myself to advocate better for myself, and I'm trying to repeat the phrase that "I can live" a few times.  Given that, I can't fill up the staying side with a life mission plan.  Am I too down to see the good?

[Grey Kitty]

  Good work!

I've got one suggestion for each path:

The chart on the "staying" side of things is pretty much "more of the same."  I've defused the triggers, and can avoid huge blow outs.  However, I can't last like this.

I believe you when you say you can't last like this. I think you need more in your life than this provides. Make a list of the things you DON'T get in your marriage that you need, and see if there is a way to get what you need from some source other than your wife. That doesn't have to mean cheating. I'm guessing it would include an intimate, trusted friend or perhaps several that you can talk to and "be yourself" around... .and I'm sure your wife won't approve, so you may have to keep this private and/or enforce a boundary to keep it.

On the proceeding down the divorce route, there are two major branches.  First I go unilateral and push it my way.  Second it goes bilateral in which we reach some agreement and make our peace. 

Please post about this on the Family Law, Divorce and Custody board... .whether you have the option of a peaceful/amicable agreement has a lot to do with how your wife responds to conflict. Read a bunch of stories there and figure out which ones are acting the way your wife is likely to act, and plan accordingly.

[Lucky Jim]

Hey Sam, Well, I took a third path as you know which involved staying for the kids and then crash landing after running out of emotional fuel.  The price of staying proved too high for me.  I don't recommend this path, though it made my choice easier, if that makes sense.  I guess what I'm saying is that it's worth considering whether "more of the same" is actually in your best interests.  I'm sure you'll figure out what is the right path for you!  LJ

[SamwizeGamgee]

LJ, I'm following you.  On the rational side, it makes financial sense to stay married and ride it out. To provide a stable place for kids to live, stay married. To plan for the future, stay married.  To avoid living alone, stay married.  And so forth.  And absent some blatant egregious behavior, the ordinary solution is to just stay married and learn to live with it. 
But, I am looking at that solution, and there's something wrong with it - I feel on the inside.
I have been holding on, and floating in indecision for so long, I think I'm learning that, like you, I cannot make it - even with all the nice band-aids from working on healthier behaviors and mindset for me.

[formflier]

  I feel on the inside.

I hope you can turn that feeling into action on the outside.  So there is consistency

That you take action on feelings that are stable (vice flash in the pan feelings).

I certainly would advise to take action first "inside" the marriage... .individuate... .advocate for yourself... .live you life.

If you ever get to the point where you are not sure about anything else you can do "inside" the marriage... .then seriously consider "outside" options.

How does that seem to you?

FF

[Lucky Jim]

But, I am looking at that solution, and there's something wrong with it - I feel on the inside.
I have been holding on, and floating in indecision for so long, I think I'm learning that, like you, I cannot make it - even with all the nice band-aids from working on healthier behaviors and mindset for me.

Hey Sam, Right, there is something fundamentally wrong with that solution.  On some level I knew it, but couldn't admit it to myself.  Took two kind friends and a family member to bring me to my senses.  I can't take credit because they had to conduct an intervention on me.  Not suggesting that you follow in my footsteps; rather, I'm encouraging you to listen to your gut feelings and come up with a plan that is consistent with your core.  Nothing wrong with lists and charts, but they can get in the way of shooting the arrow.  What arrow?  Well, to find out you have to read Zen in the Art of Archery!   

LuckyJim

[formflier]

I'm encouraging you to listen to your gut feelings and come up with a plan that is consistent with your core.  

 

[ACObound]

On the rational side, it makes financial sense to stay married and ride it out. To provide a stable place for kids to live, stay married. To plan for the future, stay married.  To avoid living alone, stay married.  And so forth.  And absent some blatant egregious behavior, the ordinary solution is to just stay married and learn to live with it. 
But, I am looking at that solution, and there's something wrong with it - I feel on the inside.
I have been holding on, and floating in indecision for so long, I think I'm learning that, like you, I cannot make it - even with all the nice band-aids from working on healthier behaviors and mindset for me.

Been following this thread ... .what great advice... .I am at the exact same place, with the exception my 2 kids are now young adults and I would change only to provide a stable place for them to come and visit.  For what its worth... .I look at my kids and think the damage is done. the whole time I was trying to hang in there with my uBPDw was to provide a "stable" place for kids accomplished just the opposite.   I am trying to go with my gut, this conversation  is helping me get there.

[teapay]

The fact that your W is fairly high functional is a plus whether you stay or leave, otherwise she is baggage.  You'd do yourself a big fat favor getting her back to work before you initiate divorce.

Your mental and emotional needs seem to be your biggest driver right now, not necessarily craziness run amuck in the home.  Bear in mind, separation won't necessarily meet those needs or guarantee you will find it in the future.  It does at least make it more likely, though, since it is unlikely you will find it in your current situation. Those unmet needs can place your in a vulnerable position as you try to meet them.

[SamwizeGamgee]

I'm going through this thread again, it was packed with my feelings, and good feedback. 
I am making visits to a T again, and I'm trying to get (back) to a decision I am sure of. 
I have tapped into some deeper feelings of how long I have regretted this marriage. 
I'll keep working on the steps to the right ---->

[Lucky Jim]

Hey Sam, Keep us posted.  You seem to be acknowledging and addressing your deep feelings, which is part of being true to oneself.  My suggestion: strive for authenticity.  Become who you are.  LJ

[SamwizeGamgee]

Thanks LJ.  I have been trying to slow down my process of feeling and then stuffing away my feelings.  I have gotten so good at being happy and keeping on going that I'm missing my life -or at least some of it.

I also have been so focused on BPD as the elephant in the room that I'm forgetting to just get in touch with myself and say that I'm not fulfilled in this marriage - wouldn't matter if it was to Mother Theresa -- of course, being married to a nun would be a whole new set of problems
But, my point is that I have bitten into BPD and figuring out all this healthy living around it, that I'm drowning out my inner voice.  Or, so it seems.

[Lucky Jim]

Hey Sam, Right, listen to your inner voice.  For me, that voice is akin to a pilot light on a gas stove that is unseen but always on, even when the stove is off.  When I hit bottom in the aftermath of marriage to a pwBPD, I discovered that my personal pilot light was still on.  Yours is too, I'm sure. 

As I've said before, I don't recommend my path to anyone but me, yet I can confirm that there is life after a BPD r/s if you determine that is the right course for you.  And in my case, greater happiness, which in my view is what it's all about.

LJ

[Huh?]

Well, considering that over 50% of marriages end in divorce; 80% of divorces are initiated by the woman... .not sure what the point of marriage is in modern society, except financial I guess.  And then, most men lose everything in that regard when it comes to the end of their marriage.

I don't think being married "for the sake of not being alone" is a good idea... .because I know plenty of people who did that, then got divorced due to being incompatible.

Marriage for the sake of regular sex? That goes away eventually... .with todays empty hook up culture... .getting sex is easier than buying a gallon of milk.

Comedian Bill Burr said (paraphrased), "Almost 3/4 of marriages end in divorce.  What if I told you only 3/4 of parachutes for sky diving will fail and not open... .would you still do it? Of course not! Yet people still get married!"

Ironically, he just got married... .so take that joke with a grain of salt.  We have been programmed from the time we were born to believe we need to be married in order to be happy.  Sure, maybe 50 years ago... .but times are different now.  People have to many options... .cheating is an epidemic. Marriages are cast aside like yesterday's garbage

Believe me, I would have loved to honor God and get married myself, I tried several times myself... .but now that I've wasted so many years, endured cheating woman after woman because they were "bored" or wanted more money, gifts, and trips from me... .I'm done.  

In my experience, when the intimacy (physical, emotional) dries up... .the "marriage" is over.  It becomes like a house of cards, everything else eventually follows.

I'm 40 now, maybe I'm "cynical" and "bitter... .but  life moving forward is about me... .no more trying to give to woman love like a bucket with a hole in the bottom of it... .futile trying to fill it. Maybe I'll date, maybe I won't. I don't really care.   You touch a hot stove enough times, you learn it's better to stop while you're ahead and not get burned.

I'm never going to go through a divorce... .I've seen it ruin to many men who never recover.

[SamwizeGamgee]

I hear you.  There are plenty of reasons to feel down on marriage.  I've even described trying to love my wife as filling a bucket with holes in it.  On the upside, I've been blessed with five great kids and a marriage contract that helps provide stable care for them.

Although I'd like a meaningful and satisfying sex life - which my marriage doesn't provide, I am not going to go on flings and hookups.  I'd feel safer and healthier licking toilet seats at the airport.  I'm disaffected by marriage enough now to avoid women for a while.