How to tell the kids?

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

I've been searching some time for information about how to tell kids about coming separation.  My H is uBPD/NPD and definitely on the higher functioning side.  He doesn't have friends or close contact with his family, so the pressure has always been on me to be "everything" and when I want to do something for myself or by myself, the anger and accusations come.  

The notion of separation has him saying things like this is going to totally mess up the children (D5 and D8), especially our elder daughter, that he is doomed, that I am betraying him, that I never helped him (!), etc.

I'm very concerned about his ability to talk to kids about separation in a neutral yet honest way.  We've tried to work things out, but we just don't get along, etc.  I remember being a child hearing those words, and probably telling my parents I wanted to stay together.  I know I used to ask both of them from time to time if they were getting back together.  He will take these kinds of questions as a sign of sure pathology and damage.  

We have an appointment with a new MC, mainly because he refused to keep going to the old one, who was pretty clear on H needing to check is cognitive distortions, but with care and validation of feelings.  H was mad that it didn't seem like I needed to do anything except 'wait for him to change.'  Meanwhile I was trying hard to not be defensive in the face of his accusations, stay calm, etc.  Well, anyway, I've told him my intention on going to the new MC is to talk about how best to manage ourselves through the separation for the children's sake.  I believe he will be back to trying to guilt/obligate me into staying in the relationship in session.  

Are there readings here about how to tell the kids, or threads I'm just not seeing?  Any help is much appreciated!

Nicke

[Nicke]

I've been searching some time for information about how to tell kids about coming separation.  My H is uBPD/NPD and definitely on the higher functioning side.  He doesn't have friends or close contact with his family, so the pressure has always been on me to be "everything" and when I want to do something for myself or by myself, the anger and accusations come.  

The notion of separation has him saying things like this is going to totally mess up the children (D5 and D8), especially our elder daughter, that he is doomed, that I am betraying him, that I never helped him (!), etc.

I'm very concerned about his ability to talk to kids about separation in a neutral yet honest way.  We've tried to work things out, but we just don't get along, etc.  I remember being a child hearing those words, and probably telling my parents I wanted to stay together.  I know I used to ask both of them from time to time if they were getting back together.  He will take these kinds of questions as a sign of sure pathology and damage.  

We have an appointment with a new MC, mainly because he refused to keep going to the old one, who was pretty clear on H needing to check is cognitive distortions, but with care and validation of feelings.  H was mad that it didn't seem like I needed to do anything except 'wait for him to change.'  Meanwhile I was trying hard to not be defensive in the face of his accusations, stay calm, etc.  Well, anyway, I've told him my intention on going to the new MC is to talk about how best to manage ourselves through the separation for the children's sake.  I believe he will be back to trying to guilt/obligate me into staying in the relationship in session.  

Are there readings here about how to tell the kids, or threads I'm just not seeing?  Any help is much appreciated!

Nicke

[Freeagain2017]

I have been struggling with UstbxNPDH about the same issues. He refused telling the kids for months.
This is what I prepared based on online resources, and talking with our couple T and the kids T.
I also had several books to explain them the change which I read them several times.
There are many good books and online posts, like this one, www.lianalowenstein.com/explaining_separation_divorce.pdf

You know mom and dad have been arguing a lot lately, and we always seem to be in a grumpy mood when around each other.
You have probably noticed we do a lot of things separately.
We decided after a long time of trying to make things work better that we, the parents need to separate.
We, the parents, are not going to live together in the future and we will figure out a plan to make sure you see both of us a lot during the week and weekend.
It is our decision and it is not your fault.
We are really sorry that it happened, but it is nothing to do with anything you have done or said.
You also cannot do anything to bring us to change this. It is our decision.
We decided that we will be happier and could take care of you better that way.
But we will always love you and you still always see us, and can talk with us, even if mom and dad are not together. We will love you forever and nothing can change that.
We are still a family – we are just changing. We will still be your mom and dad, and we will love you forever.
You may feel a lot of different feelings — we all will feel sad, angry, worried, and maybe curious about the future — all our feelings are normal.
We will also tell your teachers, so if you feel sad at school, you can let your teacher know your feelings as well.

I hope it helps.

[livednlearned]

Hey Nicke,

It's a hard conversation, made more difficult by BPD behaviors.

I told my son it was my job to keep him safe and I felt I could not do that if we stayed living with his dad.

One thing I learned after the fact is that kids have real-world questions that we tend to overlook in favor of the big emotional stuff. Like, where will there toys be, do they have to take their underwear to school, will they still take the same bus, do they have to change their last name, etc. It's good to give them a chance to ask questions, and to let them know change is weird and hard and that you'll be there for them every step of the way, plus other people who are there to help.

I told my son his job was to be a kid and also paid close attention to how he was feeling and then validated it. If he felt mad or glad or scared or pissed, I validated those feelings, even when he said things that broke my heart  Kids who have a BPD parent often feel emotionally lonely so the key is to build bridges between you and them as much as possible, without judgment about how they feel.

Like a lot of people, I also focused on alleviating the feelings of distress about separation and telling S15 (9 at the time) it wasn't his fault, which, in my experience, is a throwaway sentence because it didn't describe the catastrophic feelings that were really behind his feeling that he might not be worthy or lovable by both parents. In other words, saying it almost came across as invalidating, as though saying it could come close to soothing him over something that intense and devastating. Intellectually, he might know it wasn't his fault. Emotionally, it's a different matter.

Probably the most important thing is to validate how they feel and avoid saying, Dad really loves you. Because if they don't have a good relationship with dad, then it just confuses them about what love is and how he shows them. I let S15 figure that out on his own and come to his own conclusions, and as painful as it is, it's true and real and that is better than pretending otherwise.

My ex is N/BPD and honestly, I do not really know his capacity for love, nor do I know whether he loves his son in a way that really makes a difference. He is no longer in S15's life and there is no point trying to convince him that his absent father is someone who loves him. S15 has figured out on his own that random texts with selfies from his dad's travels aren't from a guy who can really connect.

Depending on ages, you may also want to meet with the family specialist and counselor at school, get a feel for whether you trust them, and then bring the kids in and say, I trust this person and if you ever feel like you need to come in here and put your head down, or talk, or cry, or get mad, this is a safe place for that. Help them develop that relationship or at least show them it's ok to ask for help.

I'm not sure about the benefits of telling the kids together. There are pros and cons and it depends on your particular situation, and the severity of your soon-to-be-ex's BPD traits.

Sadly, most of the books I read seemed to not fully explore the challenges of telling a child with a BPD parent, especially a dad.
I remember reading My House, Our House envying people who get to have a normal divorce. Mine was anything but.

Your ex is likely to say to the kids exactly what he is saying to you. This divorce is your fault, you are betraying him, you are messing the kids up.

You may want to read Divorce Poison proactively just in case that kind of talk gets out of hand and turns into parental alienation.

[Torched]

Nicke,

I'm sorry.  I experienced this seven months ago and it was the worst experience of my life.  I knew I would not have any help from my BPD wife in this matter so I told my kids after having them both sit in my lap in a big outdoor chair, holding them.  It was awful but I did it with some grace because I love them so, and I know you will too.  They were 9 and 12 and they both cried uncontrollably for about twenty minutes while I consoled them.  They needed a lot of consoling and a lot of reinforcement about their safety.  I then told them they could ask any questions they wanted... .and there were a lot of questions that I did not anticipate for their simplicity... ."will we have two birthdays?" "What about the dog?"

Other than that, it was quite simple... .until my wife began using my daughter as her emotional crutch and co-sleeping with her.  There was some parental alienation starting and it was something I had to push hard to stop.

I'm still a mess and making decisions as I go along.  It isn't easy and I have a lot of work to do making all this right.  I made my mistakes too that I have to somehow deal with for the kids' sake.  Don't expect perfection, but speak with love and affirmation and your kids will hear you.

[Nicke]

Thank you all for your helpful comments.  I am most inclined to tell them myself at this point, even though I don't feel great about it.  He is back and forth between denial and anger, so I'm not even sure how to get him out of the house yet.  He basically says he refuses to leave when he is angry, and then he'll say he just can't afford to go anywhere.  And he is not so bad or abusive that I need to have him removed. 

So we're both living there just kind of co-habitating, and much of the time he is trying to be super nice and accommodating, thinking I will change my mind.  But I agonized over this decision for, well, years, really, mostly feeling resolved to keep going given the children.  So when I got to the point where I was done, it was because his insidious behaviors had driven me over the edge.  I cannot be his romantic partner. 

If he cannot really accept it, or when I am forcing him to face it he yells and puts me down, how are we supposed to talk to the kids?  Admittedly at this point I have been avoiding being alone with him because both the last times we talked about this turned into him yelling at me and belittling my attempts to make the separation easier for him.  For instance, he was yelling mad about how he'd have to sell all his many bicycles because he'd have nowhere to put them and nowhere even to work on them.  I suggested he could maybe arrange with me to use the garage at the house.  He was incredulous, yelling that I was crazy, how dare I kick him out and then tell him he could use the garage, that's treating him like a dog, making fun of how I wouldn't let him use the bathroom... .ugh.  Probably a bad idea to offer him any access to the house in the first place?  I want it to be a smooth separation, but from what I see here, that is just a dream.

Anyway, yes, I suppose I will tell them myself and then deal with the consequences.  Thanks again to all of you.

Nicke

[Yleesor]

My heart goes out to you, I dealt with this 8 months ago. I ultimately told the kids together with her but it did not go so well. Their ages 12,11,9,6 they cried for a while and I just tried to hold them. NPDxw was crying too and acting like a huge victim. That has lot changes 8 months later but after a huge war in court, we have a custody settlement and things are starting to heal. There is No right way to do this, just try to answer as many question as you can for the kids and make them feel as safe as possible.

I will always remember it as the worst day of my life. But from there it can only get better!

Hugs!
Rooting for you!

[Panda39]

I was not married to someone with BPD (I'm here because of my SO's uBPDXw) but I was married to an alcoholic.

My DS16 (at the time) unfortunately was witness to a lot of arguing.  I told him shortly before I told my husband that I was planning on leaving and he was not surprised.  In my case (and this could have been a big mistake but I thought I knew my husband pretty well) I told my son he was going to live with me, and still see his dad and that he was not going to have to change schools. I wanted to keep things as stable for him as I could.

My ex was always selfish about material things so I made him an offer he could have our car (we only had one) and I was to have primary custody of our son.  Sadly, but not surprisingly he took the deal.  My ex had weekends with my son and really could have seen him more if he had ever asked or wanted to.  Since my son turned 18 contact has been very minimal on both sides.  In my case my ex had never really ever been a "dad" so my son didn't have much of a bond with him in the first place.  It's hard to bond with drunk dad.

As you can see from the posts here everyone's situation is different but you've  gotten some great tips here that you can use.  You know your kids best and your situation best trust your instincts.

Panda39

[Nicke]

I appreciate the boost of confidence here.  I do need to trust my instincts, and I have too often thought he would appreciate something I took the time and consideration to do, and he takes it totally differently, negatively, accusing me of wild things.  I need to remember that as I go forward.

Thank you all.

[livednlearned]

It's hard to bond with drunk dad.

Isn't that the truth.  

Nicke, it might help to write down what you want to say to the kids. Get your ducks in a row. And I'm sure the peanut gallery here will gladly help if you want some feedback 

If the kids are bonded with you, it will make complete sense to them why you are telling them on your own. They'll see you as the adult parent, and adults take care of kids. If you have a child who is on the fence (e.g. golden child), it might require a little more sentence finessing.

And your H will be mad at you no matter what, like you said. Might as well do what's best for you and the kids.

Watch for parental alienation to start building. With my son, who was very bonded with me, his dad's attempts to alienate had an effect. It raised doubts in my son's mind about whether I was credible. Some of this stuff is just coming out now, 2 and 3 years later, mainly as a result of being in therapy once a week for 2 years.

The toxic allegations can go underground and slowly contaminate our kids. You may find Divorce Poison and Warshak and Don't Alienate the Kids by Bill Eddy to be helpful. Craig Childress also has a blog and book out on the topic of PA. It may not get crazy bad in your situation, and it could be that some essential skills prevent the PA from getting hooks into your kids.

LnL

[Nicke]

He certainly will be mad no matter what.  I've had to talk to him a few times about the inevitability of our separation because, since we still live together, he becomes very angry when I bring it up, and goes straight into denial afterward.  I explained my intention clearly and calmly again yesterday, having visited my lawyer and planned to file papers.  He doesn't want to work with me and sees that as doing everything my way.  It seems he'd rather fight out of spite.  Even though he doesn't question for a moment that the kids should be with me the majority of the time, he started saying how he should get the house, not the kids and I, because he likes it better than I do!  I asked him to put the kids ahead of his feelings, but he seems unable.  

He already said he isn't comfortable talking to the kids unless he tells them that he doesn't want the separation, that it's what I want.  So I am definitely going to talk to them without him.

I will definitely look into these resources as I think H lacks the self-control to avoid PA behaviors even is he says it's his intention.

Trying to hang in there but can't wait to get him out of the house.  He won't go willingly.

N

[Panda39]

Hi Nicke,

You might also want to check out Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder by Bill Eddy & Randi Kreger.

Also, post over on the "Legal Board" you'll get a lot of good advice on developing a divorce plan, selecting an attorney, how to build your case and strategies that could be helpful. 

Panda39

[Nicke]

I did read "Splitting" and it was extremely useful.  I'll go check out the Legal board.  Thanks again, Panda.

N