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Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse... Have you considered that being critical, judgmental, or invalidating toward the other parent, no matter what she or he just did will only make matters worse? Someone has to be do something. This means finding the motivation to stop making things worse, learning how to interrupt your own negative responses, body language, facial expressions, voice tone, and learning how to inhibit your urges to do things that you later realize are contributing to the tensions.
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Author Topic: BPD ex-spouse and my current SO  (Read 531 times)
Francesca22

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« on: February 06, 2017, 12:09:06 PM »

I have been separated from my BPD ex-husband for about 3 1/2 years, divorced for 1 1/5 years, and with my current significant other for over 2 years. Current SO lives with me and is a big part of my kids' life.

My ex can't handle it when my current SO goes to events for my kids: performances, games, that kind of thing. BPDex won't sit anywhere near us and has actually gotten up and walked out when my current SO arrived (though he did come back in later).

BPDex found out that my SO might be at an upcoming event and emailed me that this is "inappropriate." Told me all of the delusions he has about this.

Is he ever going to get over this? It's just tiresome. My SO and I are expecting to be together for the long haul, and he's going to be at events. My ex, meanwhile, tells everyone who will listen how "dangerous" my SO is, and how he's my "accomplice" in ruining my ex's life.

He's never even had a conversation with my SO except to say "I don't want to talk to you." I don't expect them to be friends or anything, but common courtesy doesn't seem a huge thing to ask. Bare minimum, I wish he'd keep his delusions to himself when he learns that my SO will be somewhere to support my kids.
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Slate78

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« Reply #1 on: February 06, 2017, 12:49:08 PM »

Why are you expecting common courtesy from a BPD? He is triggered by your new SO being there. There is no reason he needs to sit near you. There is no reason for you to have to entertain his delusions. If your SO wants to go and you want that too, then have him go. Your ex is probably never going to get over it, and if he does get over this, he will will have a problem with something else. It doesn't end with BPDs. So just do your own thing and let him have his own reactions, you can't control it and you don't have to deal with it. Once you realise this, and let him throw his tantrums or whatever, life gets much easier.
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Francesca22

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« Reply #2 on: February 07, 2017, 03:51:35 PM »

Thanks, Slate. I hadn't thought of it being a trigger for him, but that puts it into a different perspective.

You're right; there's no reason he needs to sit near us. But another worry is that he'll act morose and angry, and that will put a damper on the activity for the kids. They know he doesn't care for my SO; they're going to figure out that their dad becomes unfun when my SO is around. And if my ex has any say in it, they'll place the blame for their dad's behavior on my SO for showing up and "making" him act that way.
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« Reply #3 on: February 07, 2017, 06:08:09 PM »

Thanks, Slate. I hadn't thought of it being a trigger for him, but that puts it into a different perspective.

You're right; there's no reason he needs to sit near us. But another worry is that he'll act morose and angry, and that will put a damper on the activity for the kids. They know he doesn't care for my SO; they're going to figure out that their dad becomes unfun when my SO is around. And if my ex has any say in it, they'll place the blame for their dad's behavior on my SO for showing up and "making" him act that way.

This is actually something I have wondered about... .I am pretty sure that even though my ex BPDw now has a BF, when she starts seeing my GF a few months from now, she'll make sure the kids are not happy about having to go home and listen to her.  My S13 is old enough to make decisions on his own about whether or not he likes someone and will ignore mom but not my D10... .she is very prone to this type of alienation.
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takingandsending
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« Reply #4 on: February 09, 2017, 02:31:57 PM »

I have to remind myself very often that for my STBuBPDxw, feelings=facts. Aiming for civility, hoping for reason, laws of physics, logic or other recent inventions of the modern world don't win out when it comes to BPD feelings.

So, if your ex is somewhat cooperative and you have maintained some form of civil communication with them, consider validation of their feeling (possibly fear, insecurity of being replaced as father or mother), and then express your truth, what part is meaningful to you (perhaps that you both love and support your children). It won't change their behavior or illness, but it can diminish the tension, which ultimately is a win for you and your children.

I certainly am not excited when I see my STBxw's possible BF playing with my kids. It's not that he is a bad guy or bad influence on them. So I think it's a pretty common feeling, not unique to pwBPD. Difference is, I can be nice to him, engage in conversation and still know that my kids will love me.
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Francesca22

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« Reply #5 on: February 10, 2017, 08:20:43 AM »

Well, my SO decided not to go to the event in question this weekend, but now my ex also says HE'S not going. So it's just going to be me.

I don't understand the game he's playing.
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Francesca22

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« Reply #6 on: February 10, 2017, 08:38:06 AM »

I have to remind myself very often that for my STBuBPDxw, feelings=facts. Aiming for civility, hoping for reason, laws of physics, logic or other recent inventions of the modern world don't win out when it comes to BPD feelings.

Thanks for this. It actually sheds some light on some arguments we had in our marriage where logic and reason didn't help, but outpouring of emotion did. It also gives me insight into some of his bizarre claims about what he thinks I did to him. They don't make sense, and he won't see reason--but to him, his feelings are facts.

It's unfortunate, because he and I and our children and everyone around us all live in the real world where facts are facts, and not everyone realizes he's operating in a universe where facts can change based on how he feels. But this really puts things into perspective for me. Thank you.

So, if your ex is somewhat cooperative and you have maintained some form of civil communication with them, consider validation of their feeling (possibly fear, insecurity of being replaced as father or mother), and then express your truth, what part is meaningful to you (perhaps that you both love and support your children). It won't change their behavior or illness, but it can diminish the tension, which ultimately is a win for you and your children.

Good advice. It's hard to validate his feelings because they are so outlandish and based in delusion. Still, it's worth trying to contemplate a more validating approach.

I certainly am not excited when I see my STBxw's possible BF playing with my kids. It's not that he is a bad guy or bad influence on them. So I think it's a pretty common feeling, not unique to pwBPD. Difference is, I can be nice to him, engage in conversation and still know that my kids will love me.

Good for you!
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takingandsending
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« Reply #7 on: February 10, 2017, 01:15:48 PM »

Francesca22,

Good advice. It's hard to validate his feelings because they are so outlandish and based in delusion. Still, it's worth trying to contemplate a more validating approach.
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takingandsending
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« Reply #8 on: February 10, 2017, 01:37:50 PM »

He may have cancelled because he got what he wanted. pwBPD create drama as a means of coping with (avoiding) their feelings. If we engage in that drama, it reinforces that method of coping. So, how to not engage in the drama?

You could try, "I know how important attending the kids events are to you. It's important to me too. We both love and want to support our children. Let's agree to not sit together if we both attend an event. I agree to give you time with the kids by yourself afterwards, if you agree to do the same for me."

If your ex tries to create drama by pulling in your SO, don't engage but return to boundary statement above. By refusing to enter the drama, wrongs and hurt feelings, you consistently establish a pattern that the "create drama" means of coping with feelings is not going to work with you. Maybe it will reduce his attempts to try that approach. At a minimum, it creates a go to wall where you don't have to try to figure out what he is after. But, you may also want to read on extinction bursts before you try this. That can be a common result.
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Francesca22

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« Reply #9 on: February 10, 2017, 02:45:58 PM »

Now I feel kind of confused. On one hand, I want to try to validate my ex's feelings, as one commenter suggested, to perhaps ease tension. On the other hand, I want to stop his behavior of being delusional, which on consideration I think I may actually reinforce by asking him questions like "why do you think it is inappropriate for my SO to be there?" and then trying to explain logically why the bizarre things he says do not apply.

Actually, maybe what I want is not attainable. What I want is for him to snap out of it and see logic. Even though he's shown me over and over he won't, I don't seem to get it. Maybe my attempts to make him see logic actually strengthen his devotion to his delusions.

Thinking back on the most recent email argument we had, he started off simply stating his position, that it was inappropriate for me to bring my SO to the event. Then I went off on a long, detailed email saying why I didn't think it was, trying to convince him. I was polite, and I tried to validate his feelings. But that kicked off a long tirade from him that was filled with his delusional ideas--which I then had to respond to because they contained serious, baseless accusations that I couldn't let stand unchecked.

So clearly, my wordy approach didn't get the job done. Maybe I would have been more effective if I just said to the first message, "I don't agree" or "it is not inappropriate." Period. I want to stand up for myself; that's ok, right? But is it better if I do it as simply and with as few words as possible?

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Sunfl0wer
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« Reply #10 on: February 10, 2017, 03:01:21 PM »

Excerpt
Thinking back on the most recent email argument we had, he started off simply stating his position, that it was inappropriate for me to bring my SO to the event. Then I went off on a long, detailed email saying why I didn't think it was, trying to convince him. I was polite, and I tried to validate his feelings. But that kicked off a long tirade from him that was filled with his delusional ideas--which I then had to respond to because they contained serious, baseless accusations that I couldn't let stand unchecked.

Help me understand... .
What would be the result if you disengaged from hearing his delusional ideas and left them to sit with him?
Would anyone/anything be harmed? (Literally asking because idk)

Excerpt
So clearly, my wordy approach didn't get the job done. Maybe I would have been more effective if I just said to the first message, "I don't agree" or "it is not inappropriate." Period. I want to stand up for myself; that's ok, right? But is it better if I do it as simply and with as few words as possible?

I am not sure what you are standing up for or defending?
Why not allow him his own reality and simply not invalidate it?
Would you be ok with simply disengaging from him when the conversation is not about the business of exchanging of the kids?
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takingandsending
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« Reply #11 on: February 10, 2017, 03:49:58 PM »

Now I feel kind of confused. On one hand, I want to try to validate my ex's feelings, as one commenter suggested, to perhaps ease tension. On the other hand, I want to stop his behavior of being delusional

It certainly is confusing. The basis for validating ex is primarily to reduce tension/conflict. But be brief and remember that validation does not equal agreeing with ex - you are validating what he is feeling, not that you agree with his feelings. And I don't think that validation and maintaining your boundaries are mutually exclusive. They can go hand in hand. Validate, express boundary, out.

What does not work is justifying yourself, arguing with his reasoning, defending yourself, or explaining your reasoning. Lengthy e-mails or communications tend to do one of these four things that antagonize pwBPD.

And as Sunfl0wer notes, you don't have to do any of it if it's not serving you, your children or your SO.
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Francesca22

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« Reply #12 on: February 10, 2017, 03:50:27 PM »

Help me understand... .
What would be the result if you disengaged from hearing his delusional ideas and left them to sit with him?
Would anyone/anything be harmed? (Literally asking because idk)

We haven't had one of these arguments in a while because the situation hadn't arisen in several months, and I guess I maybe wondered if he had calmed down about it. When this one came up, I mentioned my SO might be going to the event, and my ex said it was inappropriate. I guess I launched into engagement because I wanted to know more about why he thought that, partly to know what sort of situation we might be dealing with if my SO went to the event. If my ex could respond rationally, my SO and I would feel more comfortable with his going. If my ex responded with vitriol and delusions, my SO felt less interested in going. (SO feels he'll have stronger footing as someone who has every right to be there in the future when we are married; then he'll be my husband and my kids' stepfather, not just "mom's boyfriend." So even if my ex acts out at an event, it will be hard for anyone to see that behavior as being justified.)

The reason I then felt compelled to respond to the delusions once he told them to me (I've heard them before; everything he said, he's said before) is that he implies possible abuse of my kids. I feel like I have to address that in case he ever tries to make the argument that he "warned" me my kids were in danger and I didn't deny it. I also worry he would increase in his delusions, make them more extreme, if I don't contradict them. Or that he could attempt to influence the kids to believe in them. Or that he would manage to get some third party (like the kids' teachers or therapists) to believe in them, which could have consequences from a legal perspective.


I am not sure what you are standing up for or defending?
Why not allow him his own reality and simply not invalidate it?
Would you be ok with simply disengaging from him when the conversation is not about the business of exchanging of the kids?

We exchange emails weekly to say what the kids have been up to at each of our residences, so we are pretty engaged above just the business aspect of exchanging the kids, but we don't talk about anything else. It's probably a good idea to disengage from the alternate reality, though, when it manifests itself. I would have to try to be more "ok" with it, though, because it feels unjust to let him accuse me of things without telling him he's wrong.

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Francesca22

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« Reply #13 on: February 10, 2017, 03:56:11 PM »

It certainly is confusing. The basis for validating ex is primarily to reduce tension/conflict. But be brief and remember that validation does not equal agreeing with ex - you are validating what he is feeling, not that you agree with his feelings. And I don't think that validation and maintaining your boundaries are mutually exclusive. They can go hand in hand. Validate, express boundary, out.

What does not work is justifying yourself, arguing with his reasoning, defending yourself, or explaining your reasoning. Lengthy e-mails or communications tend to do one of these four things that antagonize pwBPD.

And as Sunfl0wer notes, you don't have to do any of it if it's not serving you, your children or your SO.

Ok, I've definitely experienced this. I've done all of those things and gotten nowhere good!

So... .when he said "it's inappropriate for you to bring him," what would be the right response, if any? "I understand you feel uncomfortable with his being there, but he will be"?
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takingandsending
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« Reply #14 on: February 10, 2017, 05:20:46 PM »

Take a look at the communication tools on this website on JADEing. I still do it. It just doesn't help at all communicating to pwBPD. Even for people without BPD, if we are upset, we don't really want someone JADEing to us because all we are looking for is understanding. Same for pwBPD but on steroids and add in the fact that what they are saying they are upset about is seemingly 99% of the time not accurate.

There's no right response. Maybe a better response. You had a visceral response to the suggestion that your SO attending an event was inappropriate. What is it about that statement that rankles? I find I get triggered when something I really care about is being trampled. You mentioned that you don't think it's fair to be accused of something that you aren't doing. Totally agree, and this one is still a sensitive spot for me when I talk with my soon to be ex wife. When I think about why it bothers me, I have a strong belief that we should treat each other fairly and with consideration. I have tried to make this a boundary in communication with my wife. I can't control how she chooses to communicate, but I can be clear to her that I won't engage in blaming, shaming or otherwise one sided communication.

Try to give this a shot. What would one validating statement be? What would one boundary statement be? It won't cure things. But it can reduce the conflict. And, it sounds like you are still both engaged in sharing your experience of the kids you made together, which frankly is really awesome and all that I hope for with my wife. You must be a pretty strong person to stay engaged, even though it is difficult. But you have to protect yourself enough that it doesn't become a detriment to you or your children. Keep what's important to you foremost.
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takingandsending
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« Reply #15 on: February 10, 2017, 05:37:23 PM »

"I understand you feel uncomfortable with his being there, but he will be"?

Incidentally, the start of that statement is on the money - it shows that you hear and get what he is feeling. Maybe "We (you and ex) both want what's best for the kids. SO and I agree to give you time and space with kids at event. I expect you to do the same for me." End. If your ex chooses to go into nonsense, you interrupt, repeat and then disengage. Be firm and consistent.
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Sunfl0wer
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« Reply #16 on: February 10, 2017, 06:22:46 PM »

Something really neat about paroosing the Improving board is there are members working on the skills on how to engage in conversations with another person. It may be a good idea to peek around there.

Honestly, it sounds like you guys are entangled in battles that distract from child rearing and are better served via disengagemnet and further detaching.

Imo: If you are finding yourself so compelled to react to try to persuade someone's sense of reality, especially of one you say is delusional... .(and I do not doubt this ) then I say, you are way too involved.  

Suggestion that I have gained from reading Improving:

1. Before you begin throwing yourself into practicing validation... .START with NOT validating the invalid.  

You do this by following  Bullet: contents of text or email (click to insert in post) takingandsending's advice on using the tools.  Learn about JADEing!  (Your replies here demonstrate JADEing  )

Start with walking away from circular arguments. (That is here somewhere too, I am not good at finding folks links, apologies)

... .

Imo, you need more detaching so that you are able to respond vs react to him.
You need to let go of caring what his reality is because the truth is that you have NO control whatsoever over what he believes!  Anyway, it is not your job to manage his outlook, motivation, delusions or mental health in anyway! It simply cannot be done.  Time to let go of these thoughts if you want different results.

Fyi: also love other advice by takingandsending re boundaries.
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Sunfl0wer
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« Reply #17 on: February 10, 2017, 06:30:36 PM »

Fyi: I am not a "co-parenting regular" and realized you are quite new. So just wanted to say...
Often in the beginning I see coparenting regulars chime in with things such as:

-Less is better.  Keep all communications as minimal as feasible.  See BIFF lessons. This is because any "more" can be used as ammo for dysfunction.

-Parallel parenting is the goal, NOT coparenting. Dispite the board title. (Someone correct me if I am wrong). The point is that you can not expect the pwBPD to cooperate, therefore, there really is no coparenting possible.  So really, lowering expectations to parallel parenting gets you ahead of the curve way faster.
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RiseAbove

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« Reply #18 on: February 10, 2017, 08:01:28 PM »

I have been separated from my BPD ex-husband for about 3 1/2 years, divorced for 1 1/5 years, and with my current significant other for over 2 years. Current SO lives with me and is a big part of my kids' life.

One of the things that got me thinking was I also have been with an SO for over 2 years, and divorced for 5 yrs. My xBPD remarried 100 days after the divorce (not exaggerating, that is a literal number) and has known about my SO since we started dating a few years ago. There wasn't "terrible" problems until last Thanksgiving. I have shared parenting with my children and I picked them up from the ex's house on our way to a party that day. I can't be sure, but it seems like the moment my ex saw my SO in what might be a mother-type role, she blew mental gasket. Next thing I know my kids and I are being investigated by Child Services for alleged abuse, and then she tried to have the court institute child support payments (though our shared parenting plan says we won't request it, and, she makes more than I do). In a nutshell, the xBPD was trying to take the kids away from me, and extort as much money as she can-- basically the nuclear option for hurting someone.

Over the years I have been trying many of the techniques you read about-- BIFF, setting boundaries, documenting everything, ignoring whenever possible etc. but I have to admit being shell-shocked at how quickly off-the-rails the xBPD went. I hear people say you need to essentially grin-&-bear it, but I can attest that even if you think you are prepared for the abuse it can still surprise you. I'm at a point now where I'm wondering two things: 1) how much worse can the xBPD make things, and 2) how do I interact with someone that we are all describing in similar ways-- they won't listen to reason, they won't see how much worse they are making things, they don't see how much they are hurting the kids, etc.?
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Francesca22

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« Reply #19 on: February 13, 2017, 09:16:38 AM »

All of these responses are so incredibly helpful. Thank you all for your thoughtful replies. I'm so glad I found this site; I've learned a tremendous amount already and see that there are lots of resources that will be very valuable to me going forward.

I have a lot to study and think about. I'll be revisiting this thread before the next time I respond to an over-the-top message from him.

BTW, the contentious event this weekend passed without incident. Ex didn't go; SO didn't go; DS6 didn't seem to notice or care. I did feel weird because I know that my ex has passed on some of his crazy ideas to some of the adults who were at the event, but nobody acted overtly judgey. I'm calling it a win.
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takingandsending
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« Reply #20 on: February 13, 2017, 10:19:46 AM »

DS6 didn't seem to notice or care.

That is a win! You and SO did helped your son do what he is supposed to do: be a kid! Very cool.
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