Therapist and other marital frustrations

[Non-bpd husband]

My wife and I are separated currently, with no guidelines whatsoever. She has had my phone number blocked for 11 days straight, and refuses to communicate with me. Also, a month ago, our couple's counselor instructed us to each see an individual therapist (which I was already doing at the time), and my uBPD W has not scheduled that yet because "she doesn't have time," which is complete BS (though obviously I have not verbalized that so harshly or even accused, just asked questions).

So those are the two things I was wanting to discuss in our session with our couple's counselor this evening.( Side note: our couple's counselor had one individual session with each of us, and she is the one who  introduced me to the possibility of BPD in the first individual session I had with her)

So I brought up the first point. The counselor asked her why she had my number blocked, and she said "because I set a boundary that I didn't want to talk about anything until our next session, and he couldn't respect that, so I don't feel safe." She never set this boundary, in fact, she blocked me after reaching out (blowing up my phone) to me. The counselor said she could keep my number blocked and we should communicate via email every other day because that's safe. What the heck? That is so freaking impractical, you're not telling her that this behavior is abusive and not at all okay, and what the hell does this solve other than giving her the power that she is desperately grasping at?

The second point, I brought that up. My wife said that she has tried to get into individual counseling with the counselor's referrals without any luck, and that she'll agree to go to individual counseling if the couple's counselor can give her more referrals to contact. I do like how the counselor diffused this one, our counselor gave her another referral, and said that if she couldn't get something with this new referral set up for this week or next to contact her (our couple's counselor, which I'm going to refer to as CC from now on) and that CC  would personally get my wife an appointment with a good counselor.

So even though  this CC  is the one that made me aware of the possibility of BPD, during our session, she said that in our individual sessions she was hearing two VERRRY different stories and that she doesn't know what to believe. (She then stressed the importance of us each being in individual counseling, here forth referred to as IC, so that she can communicate with our counselors to mark progress) and in my mind I'm like, NO SH@& YOURE HEARING TWO DIFFERENT STORIES. All the while, my wife is making subtle jabs, stabs, and telling flat out  lies throughout the session. I'm just kind of baffled. I don't understand what this therapist is doing, and I'm on the brink of divorcing my wife. I felt hopeful, but I don't know what I feel right now. I'm hopeful that she will actually begin individual counseling, but will she continue? Will she keep making excuses? Will she continue to blame me for every problem that exists?

Another thing is, our counselor at the beginning of our session asked both of us, "what is it about the other person that causes you to want to stay married to them?" Here were our responses:

Me: I fell in love with her for a reason, and I still love her for the same reasons. I know that she still feels the same way about me, but she is hurt, and sad, and angry, and what has happened to her is totally unfair, and these reactions are all a result of this ocean of emotions. I see the way she speaks to others, she affirms them, she's kind to them, she shows empathy, and she's incredibly sweet to them. I know that she has it in her to be that to me again, and she is so worth fighting for.

Her response: I'm just giving him the .05 of a chance to actually show that he is actually for me and is going to stop treating me the way he does. (She is convinced that I am going to all of my friends and her friends and spreading lies about her to make them hate her. Not true. She is basing this off of me telling a friend about how sh*tty our sex life is almost a year ago)

So, nothing positive was said about me, she just avoided the question as usual, and got away with it. And worse, the counselor seems to be falling for it. SEEMS, key word, maybe she really truly gets it and is trying to make my wife feel like she's on her side. I don't know, but if that's the case, she's also convincing me she knows nothing, and she's a really good actress. I have noo idea what to do, I feel so torn. I feel like if my wife doesn't have an appointment set up with an IC by 02/14 (which is when our next session is) that I am going to file for divorce. But even if she does have an appointment set up by then, how do I know she'll set up another one? Or that it will be timely if she does set up another one? I know that I am free to leave at any point, but I feel that as long as she is making progress, I want to give her the chance she deserves. Any insight at all into this situation would be helpful. I think I just needed to rant, and feel heard, because I certainly didn't feel heard by (what appears to be, I could be wrong) this sh*tty CC.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Healthy88]

Hello Non-BPD Husband, and welcome to the group. It sounds like you are going through a very stressful time right now with your wife, that you are willing to divorce, but ultimately would like for things to work out... .if they could. I am also physically separated right now. The distance, I feel, helps me to be able to separate emotionally more easily and really just observe what is going on more than react to it.

As for your counselor, it sounds like she accurately diagnosed your wife fairly quickly and BPD can be hard even for counselors to diagnose, if they are highly functioning. She has also commented on hearing two different stories. That is pretty common in r/s wpBPD. Generally what is going on, is that there is reality by one party and distorted thinking by the other. Nons, generally base their reality on facts. BPDs alter their reality to match their emotions so for them reality = feelings. Often when conversing with them, we need to pay more attention to what they are feeling rather than what they are saying. They are often very emotionally sensitive and their feelings are very real to them at that time. Your counselor also seems like she is not buying your wife's excuses for not beginning counseling yet and has called her bluff on it.

As for communicating through emails only, I suspect your counselor is protecting you from unnecessary abuse while holding your wife accountable for any communication she has with you. It will now all be documented, which may actually end up helping you if it does goes to divorce.

Being separated without any guidelines is very hard. I suggest you may want to do some research on therapeutic separations with guidelines and possibly have your counselor help the two of you agree to the terms and length of time for your separation and revaluation of marriage.

It is great that you are doing your individual work with a therapist. This site is a wonderful resource. You will learn a ton from just reading others' posts. You can also begin learning the tools to improve your r/s wpBPD from your side, it is the only part you can control right now and the only way you can have a positive effect on your r/s.

Finally, I would suggest you read a book or two to learn as much as you can about BPD. I am fairly new to all of this myself, but have learned so much from this amazing group in the last month. I am currently reading "I Hate You, Don't Leave Me", which has been very informative (if you know very little about BPD) and plan to read "Stop Walking on Eggshells" next. Continue to post, ask questions, read and learn all you can so that you will feel that no matter the outcome, you gave your marriage time and all you had. Personally, that is the only way I can do it so that I will have no regrets or what ifs in the end.

You did not mention how long you have been married and if any children are involved, if you are comfortable sharing those details.

I did a lot of research on the treatment of BPD and knew my uBPD H would probably never take medicine. I came across two small studies, which indicated Omega3s may be very helpful in treating BPD. It can take 3-4 months to really see changes, however. I asked my H if he would commit to taking them for 4 months for the kids and I. He said he would. I figured out dosage based on the studies and bought him a 4 month supply. His mood actually began to improve after 3 weeks. I have posted the studies and information on other threads under this topic.

I hope, you at least feel like you are not alone anymore and are in the right place.

H88

[Hmcbart]

I am currently in this same situation except for the separation part.  We are both seeing the therapist for individual needs and also for couples counseling.  The part I like the most is the therapist is the same for all of it. 

I do find it interesting that you are being told the same thing that I have been told.  The therapist said she hears the same thing from both of us on an individual basis but we have completely different versions. 

I have had 2 emotional breakdowns in the last 2 months dealing with all of this.  Two weeks ago I asked the therapist if I'm am just completely insane.  I journal a lot every day about what is going on.  I try to write down everything that happens and what is said by my wife and myself to be as accurate as possible.  I asked if we are saying the same thing but it's different for each of us and the truth is supposed to be somewhere in between, then does that mean I have over 800 pages of made up fictional accounts of what I believed was said or happened? If that's the case then I am completely delusional and have been for years.

Most of the complaints I have all deal with our sexlife or lack of one, 1-2 times a year does not qualify as a sexlife to me.  I hear Day in and day out how she (my wife) feels sex is import to our marriage and it's important to her.  She will say it everytime the subject comes up but she never acts on it or does anything to change it.  She just has more reasons why she can't or won't. 

I was close to another emotional breakdown yesterday after waiting once again for her to prove to me that it's not just words and she really feels the way she says.  Our homework from our last couples session was for her to initiate sex and tell me what gets her in the mood.  The CC was last Friday and nothing happened or was even brought up.  My wife recently started working out and has been very sore from it so I get that she can't right now.  For me though, all I see is another reason or excuse.  I feel like if it really was as important as she says then she would find a way.  If she can find the strength to get up and go workout 3 days a week even though her muscles ache then she can find a way to do what she claims is important. 

I had asked the therapist after my last breakdown about hypnotherapy to help me remove the thought of sex with my wife.  The therapist was against it and when I brought it up in our couples session my wife didn't like the idea at all.  That was 2 weeks ago and still nothing but excuses.  I came to the decision yesterday that I am going to find someone to work with me on the hypnotherapy.  I don't know if it will work but the number one reason we fight us over sex.  It has been for years.  I told my wife this last night and it lead to a very long conversation that lasted until around 2:00 am.  She kept saying that my doing this was not going to help us and she wants sex to be part of our relationship.  I just told her that I can't believe anything she says when it comes to sex and this is my decision.  I told her that I didn't get a vote in the decision for us to have a sexless marriage and that was all her.  She does not get a vote in this decision because the choice is mine. 

I don't want to divorce and I love her more than anything in the world but the resentment that builds week after week when she says it's important to her but does nothing at all to allow  it to happen.  I don't know what else I can do at this point.  Divorce isn't an option and I am never going to cheat on her so this is my last resort.  This is the only way I can see to keep our marriage together.  I can't change her and she hasn't been willing to offer anything but words and empty promises.  I can only change myself. 

[Non-bpd husband]

Healthy88, and Bart. Wow, thanks so much for sharing. Healthy88, I'm going to reply to Bart and then address your comments.

 Bart, that sounds incredibly frustrating, and I hate that you're going through that. Having a terrible sex life sucks, I feel your pain, and it's amazing that you have stayed faithful. I unfortunately did not stay faithful, and I cheated on my wife via a sexting relationship that lasted about a week. This happened in July, and is what caused her behavior to get even worse. However, it also got us into therapy, which in turn opened my eyes to the abuse, and has led us to where we are now. Me in individual counseling, us together in couple's counseling, and my uBPD wife on the verge of individual counseling. Individual counseling has helped tremendously, and I have been once since I posted this. I'm fortunate to have an incredible counselor that actually cares about me, and helped me get out of a cycle of shame which occasionally caused me to feel suicidal. I never feel suicidal anymore, and I no longer hate myself. My wife however, used to go to my individual counselor with me. It started out as couple's counseling, and when things got too vulnerable for her, she stopped going to him and found an excuse in her mind as to why he shouldn't even be allowed to have a license. Lol.

In regard to hypnotherapy, I understand how f@*ing infuriating it is to have such a lack of a sex life. Mine has been more like once every two months, but sometimes she's grumpy while we're doing it and I lose my boner. Being real. It's a miserable place to be in, and I can't imagine how much more frustrating your situation is with the empty words and constant disappointment. Man. Don't shoot me when I say this, and I haven't heard your wife's thoughts, but I would question whether or not she might have a valid point. That is definitely your choice, don't get me wrong. However, in my opinion, for what it's worth coming from an internet stranger who has no degrees in any sort of anything, is that hypnotherapy would only offer a short term solution to a deeper problem. I agree, that if your wife really cared about sex, she would act on her words. I do wonder though, if there is more that she isn't telling you. I would ask questions, and validate her feelings even if what she's saying is wrong. For instance, she might say "I want to have sex but I'm just too sore from working out." And, as impossible as this is, respond with "you know, that makes a lot of sense. If I had been working out as much as you I could totally understand being too exhausted for sex. You're so important to me, and being intimate with you is so valuable to me." And leave it at that. Even if she has some bull___ excuse, validate her emotions. This won't work the first time, and it will require you staying calm and not arguing with her or bringing up how I unsatisfied you are with your sex life. This isn't easy. If you want something easier, go run a marathon. Just kidding, but seriously, it's really damn hard. No pun intended. I promise, if you start to validate her emotions (and maybe you already do, which makes me a false promiser! So, I don't promise, but I'd bet on it) and learn to not react to how much this sucks, or let her see that it bothers you, she will feel accepted. Ask lots and lots of questions, framed like "ooh, tell me more about that." Or, "can you give me a couple more sentences about that?" Or "wow that makes so much sense. What happens for you when I say/do that?"

I hope this is helpful. In a nut shell, validate the valid, (very seldomly) invalidate the invalid, don't validate the invalid, and don't invalidate the valid. If that makes sense. I hope that's helpful

[Non-bpd husband]

H88, you response is very well thought and formatted. I'm jealous of your ability to form such cohesive thoughts and paragraphs that flow into each other and make sense! My response, though I try, will probably reflect my ADHD tendencies and bounce all over the place causing you to have to piece things together. Haha. Here goes.

It sounds like you're on a great path of self discovery and you're taking a very healthy approach. Kudos! You're doing awesome. I totally agree, being separate does also help me to step back and depersonalize the negative behavior. The danger for me though is becoming too detached from my love for her, because if I get over that, we're doomed, as I'm the only one holding us together. Though there is no real structure, and against our marriage counselor's advice, I still reach out to my wife to affirm her. Which actually seems to be helping (I really don't like our marriage counselor).

I have been married just under two years. I'm 24, and my wife is 32 (woohoo!). We have no children, but we own a house and a business together. Not at all the same thing, but, it's kinda like a child to us that I'm not allowed to touch cause it's her thing and fear etc etc... .

I too am relatively new to this, and reading, watching videos, and this website, have all been essential, paired with my incredible therapist. i recently read Walking On Eggshells, and it was great! Also, read the extension of it, which might be difficult to find, called "Love and Loathing" by Randi Kreger. Some other books I've read (I've been binge reading this past weekend) "The Subtle Art of Not Giving a F*ck," this one is my absolute favorite, it is full of colorful language, but it has been key to helping me be more secure in myself and depersonalizing, resetting unhealthy values (unhealthy value: everyone I meet will like me. Healthy value: I'm going to have a healthy and happy social life. Gives you the option to expel people who don't meet that criteria). Another one I read and liked, was "why won't you apologize?" Which helped me understand some unintentially invalidating subtle language we use in apologies or other people use that can leave us feeling "icky" and like we don't know if it actuallly helped anything at all. I read another self help book, like "be the most self confident person in the world" or something like that. It was terrible, not worth it. I took a couple things away from it, but apparently not the title, cause I don't even remember it. Also, watch some videos on YouTube of Dr Fruzzetti speaking about Dialectical Behavioral therapy, and the power of validation. That has been the most recent useful thing for me. I honestly feel like I'm on cloud nine, and my relationship sucks a big fat D. Pardon my French. Working on myself, like you said (I think) is the best thing I could possibly do for my relationship.

An update on my current situation: I showed up to our business today - it's a salon - because I was getting a haircut from a different stylist, when the front desk receptionist let me know that my wife just took an emergency phone call. I went outside as she was getting off the phone, and I asked if she was okay. She broke down crying and said no. I immediately held her and consoled her by hearing her and affirming her feelings, and she was having a not-too-terrible-but-pretty-bad family emergency. I offered to clear her schedule for the day, she politely (WOW) declined, and I just affirmed the ever living sh*t out of her. Eventually, she came to me to ask me something and I took the opportunity using this unfortunate situation to ask her if we could set our (her) differences aside, and unblock my number to keep communication open, and she agreed. It was so nice to hold her and actually be there for her and feel like she really needed me. She even responded with "I love you too" a couple times. These are the moments I long for. Deep, loving, intimacy with this incredibly complex woman. I'm so lucky for the opportunity to experience growth in a way that I never might have had, even if this ends up in the dumps. But I'm convinced, that with unconditional love, not reacting to the horrible things they do (that doesn't mean not feeling it, just having discernment about what you should really take personally), and consistent validation, she can be taught to manage her emotions, through dealing with the underlying childhood trauma, past relationship traumas, and other live traumas. I believe BPD is actually curable. All it is is an emotional dysregulation, and they need to be taught to self regulate through validation and limiting invalidation. It needs to be modeled, and taught, by a therapist who actually cares, and I'm shaking a hornets nest with this, not using CBT (cognitive behavioral therapy) as a long term solution. I think a combination of EFT (Emotionally Focused therapy) and DBT (dialectical behavioral therapy) are the most effective options. Wow, I feel like I probably look crazy and have just been rambling, but I warned you up front!  curious to see what the hell kind of response I get on this haha

[Healthy88]

It is late. I will try to respond tomorrow night. I will say that you seem incredibly mature for your age. You have definitely been doing your HW and are working on the one person that you can change right now. If you truly feel your marriage counselor is not right for the two of you, I would discuss it with your wife to see if she agrees with you. If you both feel that way, discuss it with your counselor and request a referral from either her or possibly your individual counselor. The relationship needs to be right to be most helpful.

[Hmcbart]

Thanks for your post Non-BPD husband.  I am sorry if I hijacked your thread.  Sone days I feel like I'm screaming at a brick wall that's all in my head. It's encouraging to see someone else being positive and trying to focus on improving.  I've been married close to 20 years now and was so deep in the fog for the first 17 that I never knew what was happening and accepted the blame for everything.  I am glad you figured things out sooner than I ever did. It sounds like you are on the right track or st least way ahead of where I was 2 years into the marriage.

She did initiate sex last night with me.  As badly as I wanted to say no, I couldn't.  I have zero willpower to say no to sex with my wife even after everything I've gone through. I am holding off on the hypnotherapy for now but I am still going to work on ways to lower my need and longing for sex with her.  Last night was great and I feel much better about things but I still have those lingering doubts.  I have to work on myself to get past everything I've been taught about how this part of our relationship has always been. The trust is still not there for me but the fear that the next time I want to be with her she will do what she's always done is.  Those are my demons now.  It doesn't matter if she helped create them, I'm the one who has to fight them. 

Thank you again for letting me hijack your thread for a bit.

[Non-bpd husband]

Bart, I was fortunate to have a counselor help me figure it out. I felt that everything was my fault too and that I was crazy. I would encourage you, that your sex drive is completely normal, and I would say you don't need to suppress it, as hard as it is to manage. I understand wanting to say no too. You have been rejected a hundred thousand times and it hurts like hell. Can you help me understand more about why you want to say no? I'm making a guess here so please correct me if I'm wrong. Is it that you want her to experience that rejection so she knows how much it sucks? If that is the case, this is very counter intuitive, but I would encourage you to actually have the opposite reaction. Let her know how validated you feel, "you know, when you initiate sex with me I feel so valued and loved, and it's incredible that you trust me with such a deep level of intimacy." Otherwise, she might feel something similar to what you probably have often felt, which is "well I tried and he doesn't even want to. What's the point of trying." It also gives her the power to manipulate the situation and hold it over your head in the future if you bring up being upset about your lack-of-sex, "well whenever I try you don't want it so I'm just not going to try." I'm basing these responses off of my own experiences, and yours may very well be different. But if things with my wife weren't as damaged as they currently are, in your shoes where there has been no infidelity, I feel confident that this approach will help you. As damn difficult as that is

[Hmcbart]

At first I thought I wanted to say no just to get back at her for all the times I've been turned away.  I have actually told her no before.  She didn't take it very well and yes she used it as amunition for why she wouldn't the next time.  This time I wanted to say no for me.  I wanted to feel like I was in control for once when it comes to that part of our marriage.  I wanted to say no so that I could prove to myself that it wasn't important to me and I could live without that being part of our relationship. 

We have discussed how important it is to me and that to me it's not just sex. It's everything that comes with it.  The feeling of closeness and feeling desired by her.  The feeling desired is the biggest since it's usually many many months in between.  I struggle with my own emotions around this as well.  For 20 years, I have only been told I was the reason why she couldn't or wouldn't.  I've always considered myself fairly intelligent but when you hear it enough times you start to believe it.  Then the really negative thoughts hit and sometimes I just can't get them to stop. All I hear is "she does not find me attractive and is not attracted to me sexually", "I am not man enough for her to desire me.  I have only caved and accepted fault for every thing, I have allowed her to control something that I feel so strongly about and haven't fought for what I want or need, I would be attracted to me either."  It fills my head until I don't hear anything else. 

It's so dark in my head most days that my therapist is gonna need a flash light, extra batteries, and a change of clothes to go in there.  I don't even want to go in there and I'm the one who created it. 

Sorry if I got a little side tracked.   I do have a touch or a lot of ADD.   Oh look a SQUIRL!

[Healthy88]

Hi Non-BPD H,

You are definitely using your time apart wisely. Hats off to you for being so willing to work on yourself, while trying to learn all you can about BPD. You seem to be a quick study.

What is equally impressive is that you actually had or created the opportunity to put your new skills into practice with your wife. What occurred was when you changed the way you interacted with her, she changed the way she responded to you. Incredibly nicely done.

I still feel that you may want to find a new marriage counselor. After all, if you aren't going to listen to her advice... .why pay for it?

Finally, you can help your wife manage her emotions till the day you die. In order for her to truly get better, she is going to need to admit she has a problem and work hard at it herself. Sounds like you are more than willing to do your part, but only time will tell if she is. Trying to force her to get help will most likely not work, unless she agrees to it as part of a therapeutic separation since you are working on yourself too?

As for BPD being curable, naturally we all wish that. Especially, those of us who have been living with it for a long time. I think managing it is more realistic than curing it. My understanding is that their brains have actually shown to be different in scans. That it is possible for BPD to go into remission, but stress can always cause it to resurface. If the marriage does work out, it is more than likely something you will be dealing with off and on for life. You may often have to be the emotionally mature or adult one in the r/s.

Keep up the great work!

H88

[Non-bpd husband]

Bart, so sorry you're dealing with all this. I feel you 100% on the feelings of inadequacy. I had those exact same thoughts, and it is such a miserable feeling. It's so easy to feel that way when it's continually reinforced by your s/o. I also felt the same way about going to a therapist, but it actually ended up being the best thing that ever happened to me. It is somewhat dependent on the therapist. I have no doubt in my mind that your sex drive is normal, and to suppress that would be denying yourself. If I can offer some advice, I would try to find a personal therapist that does Emotionally Focused Therapy, and/or dialectical behavioral therapy. It probably feels exhausting to think about having to explain 20 years of all this, and it is, but not nearly as exhausting as dealing with it on your own. I think there is still hope for you, and it sounds like you are an incredible person who has the tenacity to do what it takes. Working on myself is the best thing I've done for our marriage, and it sounds like we have the same underlying issue, self worth. If you don't mind a book with strong language, I highly recommend you read "the subtle art of not giving a f*ck" as it was so helpful for my self worth. Paired with a counselor who pays attention to your emotions and doesn't just offer bandaid solutions like "come to an agreement on how many times a month you will have sex" because that doesn't actually fix anything long term. I hope this is helpful, but you're worth being happy and I think even though it seems impossible, you can be happy, and with time, you can help your wife find happiness and eventually have the loving relationship that you desire

[hope2000]

Hi non BPD-husband

I share many of the difficulties you are going through now. Is not easy I know. I'm not going to add advice as they have already been soundly suggested. The important thing for you is to care for yourself. Do plenty of exercise and find a few friends to air your frustration out to as well as continuing seeing your counsellor.

Hope 2000

[Non-bpd husband]

H88, thank you for being so encouraging and affirming! I really appreciate your heart, being so kind and understanding to a complete stranger, that says a lot about you. In my relationship, things are continuing to improve. The family emergency I referenced earlier was that her brother got a DUI. I dropped everything and drove 3 hours to bail him out, help him fix up his car (as much as we could) and drive him to where we live. Long story, but he was training for a Job that is where we live and was planning to move here - this just happened to push the timeline and he moved here sooner than planned. Anyway, my uBPD wife was happy about that. I got back to town with her brother, she came and stayed with me at my parents' house where me and her brother were staying, and she opened up to me just a tad, and I validated her successfully. The other thing, we are renovating our house on HGTV, and have been filming through this whole process (since November we've been filming, me messing up and escalating things happened in July). Friday was the day they filmed the reveal, and our house is freaking gorgeous. My wife however, was unhappy with the cabinet color (she's high functioning though so nobody knew she was unhappy). She knew the cabinet color before hand (another long story I'm not going to get into), and was assuming that the whole house was going to be terribly done. The morning we filmed before we got there, she was saying things like "we told them what we wanted and they didn't execute, and we paid for it and they're doing everything as cheap as possible and I'm going to hate it and I'm mad that you didn't look at comps so we can list it immediately and sell it as soon as we're done" (side note, I'm a realtor). I validated her "wow, yeah that's a lot. I can't imagine waiting 2 months not being settled in a home giving up design control and feeling like it was all for nothing. I hate that you're going through this." She responded well, still agitated, but appeared a little bit relieved. It was just enough. We filmed, she seemed excited, she decided she actually liked everything, I was so happy. Then we went to dinner with friends and my parents and her brother. After dinner, me her and her brother were in my car, and I remembered that we're supposed to go to Florida for a wedding. I asked her, "hey when are we going to *anon friend*'s wedding?" She said, "me and *close girl friend* are driving down Wednesday and I'll be back sunday."

Me = shattered

Things were going better for us than they had been in months. We shared a bed. I was successfully validating her. She has responded to "I love you" with "I love you too." And then this. Such a f@%ing bummer. I was sad for the remainder of the night. We got to my parents' house, and she said she was going to change into pajamas. I went into our room and fought back the rejection based high emotional reaction and said "sorry I've been in a mood." She responded with "yeah what's going on?" I said "well, I'm really sad that I don't get to go with you to the beach." She said "yeah I know you're sad, but with the way things are going I can't risk you fighting with me and ruining her wedding." (We haven't been living together for over a month, I don't react to her any more, I have grown exponentially in that time, but she hasn't been around me enough to feel any sort of safety). I said "I understand." She said "are you going to come out and watch this show with *brother*?" I said I think so, but I need a minute. She left the room, and I cried for a good while. I'm so sad. I want to go with her and continue to validate her and rebuild trust. She is staying in "our" room with one of her girl friends at the beach instead of with me. She has never genuinely apologized for anything, but after I came out to watch the show she did kind of put her arm around me for a minute, which is like the closest to an apology she can get. I feel awful. I want to say "You're a f@xking heartless b@tch. You would give me hell for months if I went on a trip without you." But it won't do any good. I just hate how inconsiderate she can be without ever acknowledging it, and how ridiculously mad she can get at me for accidentally drying a $5 shirt (idk the only example I could think of right now). I love her so much, but it's so damn hard. I just want her to genuinely care about me and admit that what she is doing is wrong and hurtful. I understand why she's doing it, but you can't argue with emotions.

Anyway, fast forward to today. She hates our house again. She's like "the cabinets are brown and everything is warm tones and I clearly told them charcoal and marble. They don't give a f*ck about anything I have to say and they're spending my money not there's. I'm ready to sell the house." I validated her, went to the house, addressed her concerns, and she felt better but was now stressed about work and didn't have the capacity to hear the good news. Also, she has an individual counselor session set up for Monday! Yay! I'm excited about that. I hate my situation, I love my house, I love my wife, but I just wish so badly she was capable of caring and showing me love. Also, being real, I'm so GD tired of jacking off. Seriously. No sex is the worst. It also doesn't help that I waited until marriage to have sex (she didn't). For real, I wish I could just have sex with her and bone away our sh*tty feelings, but she's withholding because "we can't just pretend like things are okay when they're not." Uh, who the hell is pretending? They suck but I still love her and intimacy doesn't hurt anything? I get her emotional logic, but real logic says she makes no f&cking sense. Ughhh. Sorry haha. I'm ranting and rambling, and it feels great to do. I wish my wife was normal, because she's hot AF.

[Hmcbart]

Wow, dude you are super human as far as I can tell.  I won't even paint the kitchen because of how bad she gets.  Very nit picky about every tiny detail.  There is no way I would do an entire renovation project with my wife.  We just moved last year and this time I didn't give her a whole lot of options about the house.  We've moved 3 times in the last 15 years due to my job.  The first 2 houses I have up even having an opinion after realizing it didn't matter what I wanted.  This time I was at the point of DGAF and pretty much took over everything.  She wasn't happy but at that point there wasn't anything else she could do to me.  I had already shut out all emotions.   

I have already found the book you suggested.  I plan on downloading it tonight.  I am out of town all week for work so it's a much needed break.  I can definitely understand the feeling of being shattered emotionally.   I've been through it 3 times in the last 2 months.  I keep plugging away and I always seem to find a reason to keep going and moving forward.  Progress is slow but still progress. 

I saw where you said you're a realtor.  I have been in sales for close to 20 years now.  I used to joke and say I was really good at my job because being told no didn't really bother me after hearing it so often at home.  Turns out that's not why I'm really good at my job.  It's because I've learned so much over the last 20 years how to listen.  I have to be able to think about everything I'm going to say and the hundreds of different outcomes from my words.  I've learned to read the body language and facial expressions so well it's scary.  It's like playing chess every day of my life having to think 20 moves ahead.  I sucked at it in the beginning but over the years have gotten really good st it.   

She once told me, in an argument of course, that I would be knowwhere without her. That I'm where I'm at today because of her.  She was referring to hervstaying home watching the kids do I could work.  She was very correct in her statement, though not because she stayed home and watched the kids. I could hire a nanny for that.  I'm very good because I learn how to do it from dealing with her. 

Hang in there.   Enjoy the new house even if she doesn't like it.  Most likely she does like it but she just won't allow herself to be happy. 

[Healthy88]

Wow Non,

You did a great job expressing yourself and your feelings. After being married to a man who seems to have none for others, it is also refreshing to know that men do exist who care, have the ability for reflection and insight, can express their feelings and even cry.

You are doing a great job with your effort of listening and validating. Unfortunately, the more pwBPD sometimes get, the more they sometimes take. Anyone can cope short term, but the question is... .if your wife does not change or put forth any effort can you do this day in, day out for the rest of your life and do you want to bring children into the mix?

Most cannot sustain this long-term without reaching a breaking point unless they have a wonderful support group who loves them and can validate their feelings in appropriate ways, that their spouse never will. Self care and having other healthy outlets is how someone manages this for life, which is why I cautioned you that it most likely is not curable.

Obviously, you all have had some stressors with your house and being displaced. Glad "you" are at least thrilled with the outcome. I hope your wife comes around in time? You have done an amazing job validating her and maintaining your composure through all of this. Not sure I wouldn't have lost it myself in the end. I always found it easier to yell than cry. I admire you for not blowing your top, yet also not holding your feelings in. Another job well done!

Also, very glad your wife is starting individual therapy. Now, it will be a matter of time to see if she sticks with it and makes progress herself. I don't know that I would rush back into reconciliation, until you have some more time to see where the direction of your r/s is headed.

Sorry about the wedding, I know that is both disappointing and hurtful. I also understand your frustration at the lack of intimacy, especially at your age! At some point, the two of you will have to discuss the terms of your separation. I don't believe that a separation means you can see each other, date and continue to work on your r/s during this time. It is more about improving oneself and gaining clarity into what your future will entail if you remain in your current situation or at some point, decide to exit it.

I still see my H and we do things together as a family. Of course, we have children. He just has no desire to work on himself right now so we are trying an alternative approach, where he doesn't have to and I don't have to live with his chaos day in and day out. After all, a healthy r/s requires both parties to put in effort, at least in my book.

[Non-bpd husband]

Thanks you two. H88, I feel you. Before I got a grasp on what was going on in my relationship I thought to myself "I'm never getting married again if we split up. I'm just going to sleep around uncommitted because this is what commitment with a woman looks like." Fortunately, I don't feel that way any more. I hear you on doing too much for pwBPD, and long term this give and get sh*t on in return setup we have is definitely not sustainable. This is how it was for the first year and a half of our marriage, which is what led me to my breaking point which led to me sexting another woman. I'm using it as a stop gap until she gets into counseling. The fact of the matter is, she has years of unprocessed emotions that she just holds in, and she doesn't have room for mine when she can't even manage her own. With that said, I'm currently helping her manage her own emotions and managing my own emotions at the same time, so that she can even think about getting into counseling to deal with her own. She has an appointment tomorrow (thank God), and if she doesn't continue, that will be the point where I will have to strongly reconsider continuing with our relationship. As things stand, I will definitely not have kids with her. If she can learn to manage her emotions (remember, she is uBPD, and other conditions can in extreme cases have very similar symptom - severe depression for example) over time she will be at the very least better than where she is now. My counselor said in his marriage he used to be just like my wife, and his wife helped him out of it, and now he's counseling people! I have hope that she can change. Only if she's willing. If she's not, I'll move on. I used to blow up in response to things like this, but I've learned some valuable tools.

1. Be self aware. In regard to the wedding, at first I thought: if she cared about me at all she would bring me with her. That was ME being dysregulated, so I recognized that, and acknowledged my own emotions. I asked myself, what am I feeling? I feel sad. Why do I feel that way? Because you were supposed to go on this trip and now you don't get to, and she rejected you. Is it normal to feel that way? Of course it is, no sh*t you feel sad and hurt by that. Ok, I'm sad and I'm hurt, arguing with it won't get anywhere, telling her won't get anywhere, it's out of your control, what are you going to do with it? Choose to move on and understand that it's normal that I feel this way. - that's kind of how I'm having to program my brain to process things.

2. Ask questions, don't assume things. I assumed she didn't want me to go because she hates me and wants to hurt my feelings (ish). I didn't ask a question, that was a mistake, I said "sorry I'm in a mood" and lucked out that she asked me. That could have ended horribly. She could have been like "yeah you're being weird" or something and walked out of the room leaving me even more rejected and probably furious. What would have been ideal is if I had asked "so babe, it was my understanding we were going to be going to this wedding together. Can you help me understand what I'm missing there?" Or something along those lines. Anyway, didn't do that, she explained that she doesn't want me to fight with her and ruin her friend's wedding.

3. Read their mind. Kidding, but not really. "Fight and ruin the wedding." Ask myself, what is she feeling? I hear what she's saying, that's kind of a jab, but what emotion is actually behind that? Fear. She probably does want me there, but based on our past she is feeling fear. Fear that she'll do something (or that I'll do something more likely, in her mind) and we'll go back to our room and fight, and she'll be a mess and her friend will ask her what's going on instead of being in the moment and enjoying the biggest day of her life.

4. Be bold, and take a stab at acknowledging whatever emotion you think it is. In this case, I thought it was fear. So I should have said, "oh wow that makes a lot of sense. We have fought a lot, especially on vacations, so I can totally understand how that's scary for you. That would suck if you felt like we ruined your friend's wedding."

5. Continue to validate myself and work through the sh*tty emotions I'm left to deal with, and don't wallow in self pity. Accept that it is what it is (in this scenario) and continue to live life happily and not let it get me down. That's a choice, not any easy one, but it is my choice to be happy or wallow.

This does a couple of good things. It's a super healthy way to work through your emotions most importantly, it also shows emotional stability to your pwBPD. They subconsciously know they are out of control, and that's so scary, they need stability in their lives because they have none themselves. It validates their emotions, and it sets an example of how to treat one another. They might not pick up on it, but they'll feel a lot better, and it will help prevent further outbursts and arguments if they feel heard and like their non-BPD partner is emotionally stable. This is very new for me, but it's working wonders. Over time, with consistency, with her going to individual counseling, this will help tremendously.

I brought up the marriage counselor to my individual counselor, and he recommended that I counsel her in our sessions ool. No joke. He was like, do for her what you do for your wife. When she says something helpful, validate her. She has been helpful in getting my wife into individual counseling, and my wife (for now) still likes her. She gives really bad advice, well, honestly it's not bad advice, it's just not helpful. She's trying to have us do things that normal married people can do but it doesn't solve any root issues and will most likely only cause more drama. My counselor said to go along with it just so my wife doesnt have ammo to say that I'm not trying. Also, there's no way I could convince my wife to go to a different counselor because that's too big a task for her, and I can't pick the counselor because she'll manipulate that as an excuse to stop going to counseling "you picked him/her, I didn't want to go to them. They're not helping us" is the response I would get, because that's what I got last time. Anyway, I'm excited that she has someone to vent to, and luckily the person she picked (unintentionally) specializes in working with people with BPD. Yaaaay. I hope this is helpful! Also, I was a little tipsy typing my last post, which is why I had no inhibition at the end haha. Thanks you guys for being awesome. Love that we all get to share this with each other. Super helpful to talk to people in similar situations that are capable of actually hearing and validating each other!

[Non-bpd husband]

Also Bart, back to sales. I love sales. Real estate has been incredible. I've been licensed for 3 years now. First year I sold 1 house. Second year I sold 5 houses. 3rd year, I sold $3M in volume. Since January of this year, I have sold $1M in volume and have $1.5M under contract currently. So this will be my biggest year yet, and I'm stoked. That's awesome that your unfortunate situation has helped you with sales. I haven't put enough thought into what my butt hole of a marriage has done for my business. I know that everything I've made has gone toward things she wants hahaha. Last year I bought her a car, this year I'm buying myself a car. If I can make $250,000 this year I'll buy myself a new car. I do have about $100,000  in debt I've accumulated over the last year that I'd like to pay off this year ($19,000 investment into our salon, $38,000 equity line for renovations, $30,000 borrowed portion of our down payment from a family member, and $13,000 left on our 2014 4Runner). After the sale of the two houses I have under contract I'll be able to pay off the down payment and the salon investment, then I have another listing I need to sell that will take care of the equity line. So anyway, if I can do $250,000 this year, after paying off debt, I can comfortably buy a new car and pay off a chunk of our mortgage.

What kind of sales do you do? You opened Pandora's box, I'm a sucker for business and find it very interesting to know what other people do!

[Hmcbart]

Non- real estate is a booming business where I'm at. I am a consultant and trainer for the automotive industry.  I work mainly on the finance side of the business which is kind of funny because I hate math.  I majored in Anatomy and Physiology in college because you're walking around with the answers.  My ADD and insomnia helped me teach myself how to do just about anything with a computer. That has helped me over the years because most sales people are good at talking but completely illiterate with technology.  I have created several programs that help bridge that gap.  

Sadly I never wanted to be a workaholic but found less and less reasons over the years to come home for other than my kids.  So I got really good at my job at the cost of paying attention to what was happening in my marriage.  I think that's what kept me in the FOG for 17 years.  I had the guilt of not being home and she used that to her advantage.  I wish I'd known more about this stuff 20 years ago like your. I won't say I would have made different choice because I am who I am today because of my choices good and bad.  I just have to figure out how to live with the me I've become.  History is the greatest teacher but it's unforgiving and nothing will ever change it.  At 45 I have a lot of history to live with.  I just trying change my future now.  As ugly and painful as it can be most days it's the only thing I really have any control over.  

[Non-bpd husband]

Man, thats awesome. You hit the nail on the head, I am so illiterate when it comes to computers/technology. I have a real estate program for documents that is supposed to do everything for me (the program is dotloop), but instead of the sharing component that it comes with I download a PDF and email it to other realtors to sign on their own haha. I don't know if that makes sense, but basically, I'm probably making it way more complicated than it should be because I haven't taken the time to try to learn it. My 94 yr old grandad has had to call my brother to restart his computer, my dad types slowly with one finger on a computer keyboard, and with me, the apple doesn't fall too far from the tree.

I'm the youngest of 5 boys at 24 years old, and all my brothers are two years apart. We're 24, 26, 28, 30, and 32. All married but one, and we all have marriage issues. Mine are the worst. I grew up in a middle/upper class home with Christian parents who are still married, with a mostly healthy family dynamic, but seeing that my brothers have their own struggles was eye opening to me in helping me see that I probably contribute a good bit to our own marital issues. My dad is the sweetest man ever, and everyone loves him, but he's probably pretty high on the OCD scale and is emotionally manipulative: example, "Sunday I'm speaking at church and it would be great if one of my sons would show up." When in the only son available to be there... .so... .I inherited some of that, recognized it a little too late, BUT, corrected it in myself. Honestly, I'm only 24, but I feel like I'm growing up so fast. I feel like 45 will be here in no time, and I want to accomplish as much as I can. Btw, 45 is still young. My dad switched careers at 60. He has had his own law practice for 33 years, and I got him into real estate investing, and now he hardly takes on any new clients and is making way more than he was (and he wasn't hurting). All that to say, you still have time to do whatever you want to do in life. It's not too late.

My wife went to counseling today, she said it went well, then she stabbed me over the phone, I validated her (so f*cked up, stab me and let me validate you plz!), she plans to continue counseling. Her words "I've wanted to go to counseling this whole time and I told you that but you accuse me of using not having enough time as an excuse and you  just don't understand anything so I can't talk to you about it." My emotions at that moment = level 9,000. I responded with, in a slightly agitated, very slightly compared to what I was feeling, tone, "I don't understand? Let me try. You're stressed about everything, you're working all the time, you're overloaded with emotions, you're moving your schedule around for traveling for work, you're going to a wedding, you have laundry to do tomorrow but you're working all day, and you hardly have time to find a place to shower. Am I close?"

Her: "yeah, but you come at me with accusations of having enough time and using time as an excuse and you only want me to have fun with you and work is more important than fun."

Me: "oh, yeah I have accused you of that (in regard to not having 10 minutes in a month to respond to an email), I should have been more understanding. I only want you to have fun with me? I definitely don't think fun is more important than your business but please help me understand that."

Her: "every time you ever want me to hang out is to go out drinking"

Me: "every time ever? Wow, that's a strong statement."

Her: "well, yeah. Either that or hang out drinking on other people's porches."

(In my head: we haven't been to a bar together since early December, and that was because you decided on your own you were going to come join me, without an invitation. And drinking on other people's porches? I have no idea what she's talking about. I guess we did that one time so obviously that's all I ever want to do. Silly me)

Me: wow, yeah maybe you remember the last time I asked you to go to Bar with me, but I'm having a hard time even remembering the last time I wanted to do that.

Her: do what?

Me: go to a bar. Anyway, what's important to me is what you already told me you're going to do, which is go to counseling.

Her: yeah I told you that already

Me: ... .right.

So damn frustrating hahaha. Ahhhhhghggghhhhhh. Anyway, she has her next appointment set up. i look forward to this thread every day. I'm actually fine with people highjacking it, I just like to have discussion about what's going on for people in similar situations. This is so freaking hard, and this is probably my most ADD post yet.

[Hmcbart]

It didn't seem too ADD to me but then again I'm ADD so I could have just been able to follow it better. 

It sounds like you did a good job of validating even when you were dealing with your own feelings.  I have gotten the same things from my wife before about not having time.  I never really tried to validate it because she's a stay at home mom and our kids are 14 & 10, not like looking after toddlers.  Add to it the fact that she hardly ever cleans and I do 90% of the cooking.   I just couldn't find a way to validate something that had me boiling just to hear it.  I would not have handled it as well.

My wife is in counseling as I am.  We are also in MC.  I have noticed over the years that when she goes to therapy things get a bit better.  She does however start to use things the therapist says against me.  But if I say anything I'm using it against her. It's always bad for me to do but ok for her as long as she apologizes after I call her out on it.  My apologies don't matter and I'm still on the hook for anything I say or do.  She feels that she should get a clean slate just because she said she was sorry or admitted she shouldn't have said something.  However if I'm still upset even after she apologized then I am even more in default.  That's when I get to hear "that was in the past and I can't dwell on that because I'm moving forward." And "you can't move forward because you won't let go of the past".  Trying to explain that I can't let go because I have no closure is like trying to talk to the wall.  Trying to explain that I can't move forward because everything that's happening has already happened so many times before and the past is just repeating itself.  How can I move forward when I feel like I'm stuck in "Ground Hog Day"?

[Healthy88]

Hey Non,

I have a few thoughts now that you have shared as much as you have. Step outside of the BPD and your personal flaws for a minute and just look at some of the differences.

Wife is 32, you're 24. Everyone is different and some people are just more social or extroverted than others. Some are more introverted and home bodies, etc. Often, the drinking, bar hoping scene is from HS through mid to late 20s. After awhile, it gets old for some. Been there done that for X number of years, now ready to mature and do something different. You may still enjoy the heck out of it, your wife maybe not so much?

Work. She works at a Salon. It is a physically & emotionally demanding job. She is probably on her feet using her arms and hands most of the day. She also has to either listen or talk with her clients all day, whether she is in the mood to or not. What would I want to do after work, if that was my job? Possibly shower, put on comfy clothes, eat dinner and sit quietly somewhere with my H to unwind. Out to dinner or watching TV on the couch maybe. Real estate, I am guessing, a lot of alone time on the computer or doing paperwork unless meeting with clients. What might I want to do after work, if I spent most of my day alone? Possibly, go out and socialize with people.

Due to both the difference in your ages and the different nature of your jobs, how you enjoy spending your time after work may be entirely opposite. I have no idea if your personalities are similar or opposite too. So long term, do you see settling down and enjoying quiet evenings at home or never because that is not you? Is there any future compromise in all of that?

My H will probably still be sitting in a bar conversing with strangers when he is 80. We married later and he is almost 6 years older than I am. His point is that I went out a lot when we were dating. My point sure, that is what you do when you date. We also spent a lot of time with my family and extended families at their homes while dating. He hardly ever drank when we were dating because I wasn't a big drinker. He knew I was very family and home oriented. I expected because he was older, for him to be more mature. He was 32, when we married so I assumed he had had plenty of time to do his thing and was ready to move on to the next phase of life, as I knew I was. He, however, was not. 20 years later, he still is not. I am sure you get my point.

On a side note, which brother isn't married? He is the one I would have been interested in because clearly he is the smartest of you all! Just kidding. Also, please give your Mom a hug for me. 5 kids and all boys in her house with her? I imagine she is quite a special lady.

[Non-bpd husband]

H88, haha, yes my mom is a saint. Yeah, that definitely plays into it. I'm extroverted, she's a social introvert. I do see myself spending quiet evenings at home, and we (used to) have a pretty healthy balance of going out and staying in. I think where we clash is, I'm tired of doing nothing other than watching TV when we're home together, with no connecting or intimacy, and she's tired of activities that revolve around drinking. The work and personality differences definitely play into that. The bummer is, if I'm networking while working, my wife says "you're out having lunch with your friends while I'm working all day." Networking and social activity in my work day helps her chances of me wanting to spend a night in, but she gets mad when I do it and holds it against me. Another part of me going out is that we sold our condo downtown in September, bought a new house, and are just moving into it this week. From September until now we have been alternating staying at my parents' house and staying in the upstairs of  our salon. So we don't have a place to entertain. She is much more into people coming over to our space where she feels comfortable, has some control over who is there,  and can go to bed whenever she wants. That's often the best compromise for us. And age, it means nothing. I'm married to someone who is probably 12 years old emotionally. The only factors are that she gets tired more easily, and the biological clock is ticking away but I'm not getting her pregnant until we're more relationally healthy. Also, you have to have sex to get pregnant, and that doesn't happen right now, so... .there's that.

I have a really exciting update though! She has scheduled out individual counseling appointments every Monday, AND she acknowledged me doing something good in marriage counseling. I guess you could say I'm painted white right now. The MC had us fill out a worksheet that shows us our cycle (which I was already aware of, but was stoked for my wife to see), and showed us how we each play our own role in the cycle. She gave some good advice for once! She suggested in our individual counseling we each focus on only the things that we do that contribute negatively to that cycle, and learn a healthier way to respond. THIS IS ALL IVE F*CKING WANTED. Ahhhh. So, it's hard not to have high expectations, and I need to come down off that a bit haha, but I'm just very excited that she is in counseling, and both our individual counselors have signed releases from us to communicate with our MC, so there is a pretty good chance that they can help her stop treating me like sh*t.

[Hmcbart]

I know how you feel about the kids.  My youngest is now 10, figured out what caused it and got that taken care of, LOL.  When we were taking about having another child 11 years ago, I was thinking "YES!, I get to have sex and often" because she had a goal of another child.  Turns out I am not that lucky. I got 1-2 practice swings and then hit it out of the park.  The trip around the bases took 18 months before I got another swing. 

Then her PPD hit and things went from bad to worse.  I buried myself in work again which didn't help. 

As far as going out. She and I are both more into staying home.  We used to go out drinking a lot when we were younger but other than work functions, we never do anymore.  I'd like to have friends we can do that with but she doesn't really have a whole lot of friends, mostly acquaintances with no real relationship invested.  I have gotten the same way after so many years.  Dealing with the criticisms that come from doing anything even by myself just caused me to stop trying.  It's hard to make new friends when you can't or won't go and hang out with them.

Not sure what I'm even talking about.  My ADD IS kicking in now. 

[Non-bpd husband]

No I feel you, I had lots of friends before marriage, and I still have a good deal of friends, but I have a hard time making new friends because of exactly what you're talking about. Hanging out with new friends is most of the time not worth getting b*tched at. I'm hopeful that things are looking up right now though. She acknowledged that we both contribute to our marital problems, and she is committed (it seems) to individual counseling. For me, those were the two biggest hurdles to get past. I just hope she's open enough with her counselor that her counselor can actually see the issues she has that need to be addressed. I just don't know how she can deal with her own stuff if she hides it and only talks about "how terrible I am." Time will tell. I have an individual session scheduled today and I can't wait to hear my counselor's thoughts on all this.