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Author Topic: Will I go through normal grief stages or will it generally like this?  (Read 631 times)
MissyG

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« on: February 08, 2017, 03:38:50 PM »

Just want any warnings or heads up - will I go through normal grief stages or will it generally be 'blah' like this?

Should I spend the money to go overseas to the funeral (I moved abroad to get away from her)? I have the experience that rituals are powerful and sustaining but because of her I went no-contact with everyone in the family except 1 sister so it would be quite an unpleasant experience.

I have to admit I feel a tiny bit of relief as I don't have to worry about her stalking me any more but I also feel like an alien / robot for feeling that.

Anyone with experience in this, I would welcome your reflections! And thank you in advance.
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Basenji
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« Reply #1 on: February 08, 2017, 04:13:57 PM »


Anyone with experience in this, I would welcome your reflections! And thank you in advance.

I can only speak from own experience. My mother is uBPD and my father was subclinical sociopath - they split when I was 8 years old leaving me alone with mother until I left home to go to college at 18 years. I moved from the UK to Australia at 26 years, which, in retrospect was the best thing I ever did.

I have kept contact with uBPD mother, but rarely see her (she is not allowed to visit me in Australia after several disaster-laden trips and I never stay with her in the UK, preferring short lunchtime meetings).

My father died 2.5 years ago and I never felt any sadness ever. No grieving. I had to fly from Australia to Uk and retrieve his remains from Germany (he died on holiday) and resolve his affairs as executor of his will on a subsequent trip from Australia. Nothing. No emotion.

It has been long enough that I feel that grieving will never come - in fact I think it already happened since we fell out 2 years before his death (and just communicated by email) after I finally summoned up the courage to challenge him on a number of legacy issues: in that period he changed his will and substantially disinherited me to the tune of many $100,000s which is the ultimate insult.

My theory is I have already grieved the loss of that relationship in those 2 years before he died. and subsequently had to deal with the anger and insult of the partial disinheritance. It was then I had to finally face the fact that this parent was not the idealised parent I sought and imagined, but rather emotionally disconnected and only tangentially committed parent firmly stuck on their own agenda with little regard or respect for me.

Maybe you have already grieved the loss of your parent in the time you have been NC ? That said, obviously grief could be delayed. Maybe you just have to let the thoughts be - it is happens it happens - if it doesn't maybe it had already happened for you?

I now consider my responses to mother dying (she is 85 years old). I don't expect to feel anything either when that happens, except enormous relief. I have no interest in spending the money travelling to the Uk to attend a funeral - of course, if I am executor of the estate I would have to go the UK to sort out her affairs (she refuses to discuss the estate or set up a power of attorney), but would find any excuse not to be at a funeral with her few friends pretending I'm grieving for an abusive parent. If I do feel a need to grieve - I'll find a way that suits me at that time (I'm not religious so any church / faith ritual is of no value in my personal case, but may be significant to others who hold personal beliefs).

In short, I suspect I have also substantially grieved the loss of the idealised "mother" figure in my life and finally recognised this person who calls herself parent is behaving entirely in self interest whilst declaring she was the best mom in the world and I had a perfect childhood. I have had to accept that I don't love her, don't like her, don't like spending time with her, and only have a sense of most basic ethical responsibility, which I rationalise as slight at best.

There may also the issue of any friends / relatives who think they have right to judge the choice to live overseas with minimal contact - "why weren't you there for her" - "well actually, mate, she was a child abuser"... .etc... .can't be bothered with that when she passes... .

Anyway, only personal experiences and reflections at best... .!

Good luck and take care of yourself as number one!
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MissyG

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« Reply #2 on: February 08, 2017, 04:38:28 PM »

Maybe you have already grieved the loss of your parent in the time you have been NC ?

Thank you for your thoughtful response. It was very related to my situation because of the overseas part and the no-contact part. Glad you took the time.  

I think what you said about already having grieved feels like the closest to what could be causing this lack of response in me.

And what you said about not going to the overseas funeral because of cost and unpleasant / judgemental company - somehow when you said that I realized that I would just be trying to please those very people by putting on the show of 'good family member.'  I wasn't present for a (narciccisstic and abusive) sibling's recent wedding so I guess they can all just chalk it up to my general unavailability.

I did offer to help my sister with arrangements but since I'm so far away and she is a very competent person (with a much stronger financial portfolio thanks to the decades of my mother, with a freshly minted nursing degree and entry into theworkplace after being stay-at-home while my dad worked for years, verbally declaring that she would not use her income to support me, only my sister)... .I'm thinking she doesn't really need it. She was favored by my mom but not as much as our brother was favored. They didn't have a 'nice' relationship but it was cordial and they did get together for holidays (sister lived a few states away from mom). So I think her grief might be more real but I don't think it will be debilitating and I suppose my other two siblings (who lived in the same town as our mother) could help.

Well! This has been helpful. Thanks again.
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Basenji
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« Reply #3 on: February 08, 2017, 04:52:30 PM »


I think what you said about already having grieved feels like the closest to what could be causing this lack of response in me.


Please may I offer a further thought:

I am determined in my own case to reject any misplaced feelings of guilt that may raise over any decisions: the best option to be determined by logic / pragmatism with the main  goal of looking after my own personal interests (given the family history). Were I to go to a funeral it would entirely be motivated by convention / guilt / sense of duty, which I all reject as not being in my self interest. I also have zero tolerance for folk acting / behaving in ways that may not be true (acting out the role of grieving friend or relative at a funeral). If some folk have genuine need to grieve, let them do it!

But that's me... .and I've jettisoned much of my natural empath responses over time to arrive at this position... .

 
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Naughty Nibbler
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« Reply #4 on: February 08, 2017, 05:10:11 PM »

Hi MissyG:   

I'm sorry for what you are going through.    Some people go to funerals out of respect to the surviving family, others to process their own grief/mourning.  This is a decision you will have to make.  There isn't a right answer, just the best answer for you.

It might be helpful for you to look at The Survivors Guide for Childhood Abuse (in the right hand margin).  Sounds like you have worked through a lot of the steps already. Do you think you might be in the "Healing" stage?  Perhaps your mom's passing will facilitate completing the process. 

If visiting your mom's final resting place would bring you closure, that is something you could do at some future time, when you might want to visit the area and have the money and time.

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MissyG

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« Reply #5 on: February 08, 2017, 05:33:57 PM »

reject any misplaced feelings of guilt that may raise over any decisions
Thanks for the further comment. This is similar to how I feel now. Sadly my internal threshold for violative / betraying interactions between me and various family members was crossed long ago so I do put my safety and health first in all dealings with them.


 :)o you think you might be in the "Healing" stage?  Perhaps your mom's passing will facilitate completing the process.  

That is such a hopeful thought - thank you! I have gone through many of the phases with various kinds of help and yes, I think I am in the Healing stage. Somehow not having the paranoia that she will show up at my job or contact my friends / colleagues / clients in further crazed attempts to contact me against my will makes me feel more willing to approach the next forgiveness exercises in the therapeutic program I'm currently using. Forgiving finally felt like letting my guard down which now... .I can because she can't hurt me.
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Turkish
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« Reply #6 on: February 08, 2017, 10:50:46 PM »

It seems like what Basenji said,  that maybe you've already grieved this. 

Deciding how much to get involved could be complicated, but do what's best for you.  In my opinion, without causing harm to the living,  but respecting your own boundaries all the same.

Not to wish my mother into an early grave, but I can relate to your feelings. 

Having let go,  it's hard to re-engage when a parent has passed.  The standard response is "I'm sorry for your loss" (I am) but it's tough to deal with given unanswered and unvalidated grounds. 
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MissyG

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« Reply #7 on: February 09, 2017, 03:12:30 AM »

  it's hard to re-engage when a parent has passed. 
Thanks Turkish for taking time to comment and for your suggestions. As I consider what you and Basenji said, I realize that at this point it would be ungenuine and not good self-care for me to put on a show of concern that I don't feel. 

As far as showing reasonable concern, I am emailing the sister with whom I am in contact to help her find contact information for the other estranged sibling but I won't contact the estranged sibling directly myself - she  has a history of energy-draining intrigue (no need to rehash this now).

Anyway this board is the only place where I feel safe discussing my mother's death because of how she was. You are all angels in  my life. Thank you.
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Notwendy
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« Reply #8 on: February 09, 2017, 06:13:51 AM »

I think your sense that this would be disingenuous of you is the key to your decision.

My BPD mother is alive and I am not NC with her. However, I don't feel close to her or her FOO.

I did feel a bond with my father.  Once he was gone, I felt there would be nobody at his funeral that I felt a connection to. It was mostly my mother and her FOO and friends. They were no comfort to me. I didn't want to go to the funeral and be surrounded by them. The main reason that I went was because my kids wanted to go to pay respect to my dad so I felt it was important to honor their feelings.

I did grieve- a lot, but that would have happened with or without attending. It was a miserable occasion. I sat by myself- away from BPD mom and her crew, because I couldn't even think of dealing with them and their drama.

I think grief is something that occurs in its own time and its own way. If a funeral has meaning- can be of comfort- then it becomes important in that sense. What I found though was that a certain song on the radio, a movie, a TV show- could remind me of my father- and I would grieve- in the moment. It's an ongoing process.

You may grieve - or you may not- with or without the funeral. From my own experience- putting yourself through something that isn't going to be of comfort to you- and could be stressful - won't change the grief process.
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MissyG

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« Reply #9 on: February 09, 2017, 08:32:12 AM »

I did grieve- a lot, but that would have happened with or without attending.  

Thanks for that reflection, Notwendy. I can see that, for sure. How whether I put myself through the ordeal of the funeral or not, my grief will still take its own course.

I think the part of me that wants to go crazy with raising funds and putting life on hold to go back there, the part that wants to soldier through one awful encounter after another horrible confrontation after another teeth-gritting ordeal with unbearable family and community members (she put on quite the lifetime show to lead them to believe she was a sweet lady and good X-ian), is a part that wants to manufacture the appearance that yes, I had a bond with my mother like a normal person! So it's pathetic and unworthy and I'm not going to do it. Better to do more therapy and heal on my own, reconcile to reality fully. That is the true value and opportunity of this moment.
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« Reply #10 on: February 09, 2017, 01:15:53 PM »

Hello MissyG  

You seem to have a fairly good insight in what you want by now, so I will give you my point of view only for what it's worth.

I have a very dysfunctional FOO too. Last summer the only real family I had left, my grandma, died. I did not go to her funeral, although I loved her a lot. My grandma was not religious but did not want to be incinerated. She wanted to be buried. Her children did not respect that wish. There was also no real ceremony either. They just went to the graveyard and put grandma's ashes next to grandpa's. But even with a ceremony I would not have attended. I felt guilt for just a moment, when I was deciding not to go. But than I thought... .those people, they already judge me - because of my mum talking bad about me. Why would I go, only for pleasing them ? Why would I deal with the stress of seeing people I don't even like ? My grandma is dead. I am having enough on my plate already.

I did go to see grandma after she died, just to make sure both me and my daughter would 'understand' she was dead. And then we had our own ceremony. We put on candles every night the first week after she passed. And we went out for dinner, just to celebrate she had been in our life for so long.

It's a different case from you and your mum, because your relationship was not good. But if you think it would be good for you, you can have any kind of ceremony you like - or not. It can be anything at all.
In case of people dying who were not good for us, we can have conflicted emotions. For what it's worth, I'd like to tell you that for me, I think I will have strange feelings when my parents will die. I don't think I will feel grieve. So please never feel guilty about that. Like other members pointed out already, we sometimes grieve the loss of someone while this person is still alive. There is absolutely nothing wrong with us if we don't grieve at the moment they are dying. And to be frank, I think it is perfectly possible that I would feel some relieve, too. Who knows maybe I will feel guilty about that, if it would occur. But now, from a distance, purely theoretically spoken, I don't really see something wrong with that.  So what I mean is, you can even have a ceremony to celebrate that now a huge stress has fallen of your shoulders. There really are no wrong emotions.

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« Reply #11 on: February 09, 2017, 02:00:40 PM »

Hi Missy G,
The subject of my last post is "visiting eldery uBPD Mom in the hospital". I am dreading the time when I have to make a decision to go or not to go, and if this relatively new NC is sustained, what will I do when I get word about my Mom's imminent or recent passing. I found the replies to my post and to your posts extremely thoughtful and helpful. Even though I haven't gone through what you are currently going through, it is paramount on my mind and I have come to the decision that I will do what feels right for me, Too long have I done things out of obligation, and was bullied by a dysfunctional parents to respect your elders. Was told repeatedly that respect was one sided, a child must always respect a parent and not the other way around,. I am an inherently strong person but always second guessed myself. I'm so glad you came to this site for support. I truly hope it helps you to find the answer that works best for you.
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Basenji
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« Reply #12 on: February 09, 2017, 05:43:25 PM »

the part that wants to soldier through one awful encounter after another horrible confrontation after another teeth-gritting ordeal with unbearable family and community members (she put on quite the lifetime show to lead them to believe she was a sweet lady and good X-ian), is a part that wants to manufacture the appearance that yes, I had a bond with my mother like a normal person! So it's pathetic and unworthy and I'm not going to do it. .

I had a strange realisation when attending to the aftermath of my father's passing - how in these situations we may assume we are doing the right thing for ourselves and others when maybe we are not!

Being the next of kin and executor of his estate, I had to go and fix things up. Fortunately he had written that he wanted close family only at his funeral and he had died overseas: evil stepmother (who divorced him 22 years earlier) came out of the woodwork and tried to arrange a grand funeral back in London and presented herself as next of kin to the insurance company, German authorities (where he died) etc and had to be very quickly shut down by me and my lawyer. Luckily she had interfered to the extent that his body had been held by the German authorities for two weeks pending proof of next of kinship and my own presence in Germany. This enabled me to arrange a very low key "funeral" at the local funeral home since no "close" family were inclined to fly to Germany! So exGF and I sat with his ashes in the memorial room in a  state of numb abandon and changed the music from the funeral home staff's choice of Bolero (!) to Jerusalem from my iPhone, read Tennyson's Ulysses and the job was done.

Problem was that left his close friends without an avenue of remembrance, so I set about arranging a party to celebrate his life.

Anyway, one day sitting having lunch with his two best friends at a London pub and discussing the options for the event flushed with a fine red wine they confessed they were seeking to support the event for my sake because they found that typically helped close family to grieve when other friends / colleagues had passed! OK, so the easy choice was to enjoy another bottle of red and drop the whole idea! I had been planning the event for them and they had been supporting the event for me and none of us really needed to do it anyway! There was a subtext in that evil stepmother was trying to undermine the event anyway and had been badmouthing me on the corporate blogs of where she and father used to work (a very famous broadcasting company), which would have been very embarrassing for all, especially, since quite a number of well known TV folk would be on the invite list... .such relief and then chance to focus back onto the everyday issue of selling property, etc.

Some quiet days of reflection on the way back to Australia routed through Bermuda, Hawaii and Guam were all what was needed!

The true quality (or lack of it) of the supposed family members (nephew, niece, estranged stepson) was revealed when they were paid out some money from the estate and couldn't even manage to thank me for arranging the payment - in fact once they had their cash I never heard from them ever again.

Now the benefit of such experiences it shows the pathway of how to handle what the future may bring as my uBPD mother ages and passes based on my own needs and my own perceptions of the people and world around me!
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« Reply #13 on: February 10, 2017, 04:03:06 AM »

I do not agree with most of the arguments in this exchange. Your parents are those who gave you life and even if they were horid in their lives we should have a shred of gratitude to the fact that we exist because of them illness does not make a person unworthy of respect. So if i were in your place I would certainy say a final farewell to my parents. Forgiveness is one of the most noble vales we all need to treasure more. I am not religious but have a humanistic attitude to life.
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MissyG

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« Reply #14 on: February 10, 2017, 05:48:47 AM »

Thanks madeline7. I will read through your other thread. I'm glad I came here, too. It has really helped me feel acknowledged and given me courage to take care of myself and be honest with myself...

And Basenji it's funny I just read an article about how we don't come off to others the way we think we do and we are mostly assuming what other people think based on our own values or previous notions.  

Fie, after your comment I searched for some rituals and found one that felt right to me which I will do this weekend when I get some privacy.

Also it's not true any more that I feel nothing. Yesterday I felt like... .no more excuses for holding back. I had used my fear of her as a reason not to be as public with my life as I thought she would try to ruin my reputation (which she has so why was I still so hung up but whatever). It was a kind of regret for my own reactivity to her.  I also felt sad for her that this is really the best she could do. All the opportunity of her long life and now... .this is it. She left four adult children in their late thirties in  various states of recovery from her, various states of arrested development. None of us has had kids out of a terror of repeating what she did. And that's her legacy - she can't fix it and she can't fix herself. That is sad.

Jcw127 although I had to struggle with what I perceived as condescension and judgement in your tone in order to find the compassionate part of your comment I do see the value of saying goodbye and I think Fie's suggestion of a private ritual suits me best.

Anyway. Thanks again to you all for your thoughts and time.
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« Reply #15 on: February 10, 2017, 05:58:07 AM »

I understand this, and have struggled with this consideration from a religious standpoint. I believe that gratitude and respect for the gift of life is essential to me. So is forgiveness.

This becomes a dilemma when the same parent (s) who helped to give you this gift of life are also a threat to one's emotional or physical welfare.

A funeral is a moment in time to show respect but it isn't the only moment or way to do so. If attending a funeral isn't feasible or is emotionally detrimental, then there are other ways.

One poster mentioned a private ceremony. The question didn't go into this- but there are other ways to honor her mother if she chooses. One might be to make a donation in memory of her mother to a charity- even a mental health one- so that there may be more research to help people like her mother. Or a domestic abuse center, or any charity that helps others.

There could be other suggestions on how to do this, but I think making an assumption that not attending a funeral is disrespect isn't always the case. There are other ways to commemorate a parent.

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« Reply #16 on: February 10, 2017, 06:10:46 AM »

Hi MissyG

Also it's not true any more that I feel nothing. Yesterday I felt like... .no more excuses for holding back. I had used my fear of her as a reason not to be as public with my life as I thought she would try to ruin my reputation (which she has so why was I still so hung up but whatever). It was a kind of regret for my own reactivity to her.  I also felt sad for her that this is really the best she could do. All the opportunity of her long life and now... .this is it. She left four adult children in their late thirties in  various states of recovery from her, various states of arrested development. None of us has had kids out of a terror of repeating what she did. And that's her legacy - she can't fix it and she can't fix herself. That is sad.

It is sad indeed. As long as a BPD parent is alive, deep inside we can still have the hope that one day our parent might still change and turn into the loving parent we so desperately longed for. Now that your mother has passed away, the hope of any redemption of this kind is gone too. When you have a disordered parent there are many things to grieve and let go of. Not just the fact that our parent has BPD, but also how it affected our and their lives, the consequences can permeate nearly all aspects of our lives. The past can indeed not be changed, but perhaps you can find a way to move forward and break this state of what you perceive as arrested development. Take care and know we are here for you

I do not agree with most of the arguments in this exchange. Your parents are those who gave you life and even if they were horid in their lives we should have a shred of gratitude to the fact that we exist because of them illness does not make a person unworthy of respect. So if i were in your place I would certainy say a final farewell to my parents. Forgiveness is one of the most noble vales we all need to treasure more. I am not religious but have a humanistic attitude to life.

Every person is different and will deal with things differently. Honoring life itself and being grateful for our existence certainly has tremendous value. Being raised by a disordered parent can cause for a very complex situation and mixture of conflicting feelings and thoughts. This discussion is not necassarily only about forgiveness and showing the final respect, but also about finding the right balance and coming to terms with an abusive childhood that can leave people traumatized. Finding the right balance between honoring a parent and honering oneself can be quite challenging after a lifetime of abuse by that same parent. This process of healing from the trauma can take time and will be different for everyone.
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« Reply #17 on: February 10, 2017, 06:52:14 AM »

I do not agree with most of the arguments in this exchange. Your parents are those who gave you life and even if they were horid in their lives we should have a shred of gratitude to the fact that we exist because of them illness does not make a person unworthy of respect. So if i were in your place I would certainy say a final farewell to my parents. Forgiveness is one of the most noble vales we all need to treasure more. I am not religious but have a humanistic attitude to life.

On reading your posts you seem to have done amazing job in an effort to support your daughter. So perhaps you might agree that when we are faced with complex decisions, perhaps the answers are not easy, nor are they clean cut.

Of course you can disagree with my posts and those of others. Vivre la difference!  You are entirely entitled to your opinion. But maybe not to judge without the full facts. There are always other factors at play... .your suggestions that there is no gratitude and no respect is entirely misplaced and bordering on profoundly insulting.

I wonder if your statement would apply to your daughter's partner?

In my own case, my parents are not my blood.

They adopted a child to try to correct a marriage which was already broken (father was having multiple affair within a couple of years of marriage and mother was an undiagnosed psych case and a gender dysphoric). That placed me, the child, in a no win situation, particularly when they separated and spent 13 years bickering about the divorce settlement. They never let me forget it.

I am not religious. I regard myself as humanitarian with a strong influence from Buddhist concepts (which is non theistic = no god), which has a central tenet based on on compassion. I have always given freely to genuine friends in time, money, and friendship. They deserve it. They earned it.  

Here in Australia many thousands of cases of sexual child abuse have been revealed by a royal commission most perpetrated by catholic priests - what are you suggesting - that we let these people off with no justice?
No accountability?

In my case, my abuser was my mother! Is she exempt from the law because she is legally a "mother": a role incidentally that she FAILED to execute by any UK legal or UN humanitarian definition?

Is respect endowed by birthright or earned through compassionate action? I fell out with my father because he assumed my respect and did not earn it - his position was he had a right to my respect because he was technically my father and my elder but throughout my life he betrayed that respect. What - I am supposed to suck that up and get down and kiss his memory when he abused me? I don't think so. Even then I did the right thing in his memory - continued to support the charities he favoured - continued to support a school-age child he sponsored, kept in touch with his friends... .I even tried to scatter his ashes at his school (which he provided a $500,000 in bequests) but they refused because it was inconvenient. Pricks.

Now let's talk about the concept of illness. You can be ill but still accountable (legally). So... .my mother has an illness. Granted. But she is still legally accountable because she retains the power of volition (the ability to decide whether to do something or not) and has the ability to determine the difference between right and wrong. Bottom line - she is still accountable.

Now consider her self responsibility. She has messed up her relationships with her sister, her father, her husband, her son and multiple bosses at work. Has she accepted she has a problem. No. Has she accepted she needs help. No. Does she continue to abuse even though I'm a 54 year old adult (the other day she gave me lecture about how I never do anything for my friends - yeah right, I'd just bought a first class ticket for my best friend to fly UK-Ausytralia in honour of 30 years of friendship and a retirement gift to her). Yes. She may well be ill but she is not stupid. She knows she's a player. She refuses to make sensible and reasonable plans for her end of life, which will just create unnecessary drama for the rest of us.

Now in honour of the one good thing she did in her life towards me - fight for a good education - I continually provide praise - she deserves that. But that is all she deserves.

On the issue of a final farewell to parents. Why does that have to take place in the formality of a funeral possibly attended by folk with no genuine concern? If you read the posts the debate is about how people may individually engage in their grieving process. Isn't that the point? The funeral or whatever, isn't for the poor sod that just died, it is a vehicle for the living to grieve and deal with their passing?

And on the subject of forgiveness. The concept of forgiveness is not simplistic. It is about the abused finding peace. If the abuser is dead anyway - what the heck - it isn't about them!

And finally, on the subject of "gift of life" - from my point of view (a biologist with multiple research degrees) I would say - so what? Every living organism on the planet shares the common attribute of reproduction. Everything from algae, to jellyfish, to bacteria to sharks, from cats to daffodils. So what? Nothing special. Nothing to see here. Maybe... .just maybe... .if a child is born of genuine love it could be special. I would suggest such circumstances is the rarity not the norm. And in any case my conception was a "mistake" and certainly not a gift of live and I was "stolen" from my birth mother because of some stupid religious nonsense and ironically handed over to a supposedly blessed couple. Gift of life? An illogical phrase posing as some pseudo-noble quasi-religious righteousness = blah!

With the greatest respect, you are not in our position (a uBPD parent).

Your post is somewhat insulting in that it implies that myself (and others herein) have come to our conclusion without due empathetic, humanitarian, and logical process. Of course we have. Read the posts! Witness caring and thoughtful people wrestling with issues with they never deserved to face in their lives.

Apologies in my reply is somewhat forthright - you are entirely entitled to your opinion and presumptions - please be more open minded and less presumptuous. To be honest you have rather pissed me off by questioning my ability to fashion a well considered response to the life challenges I have faced.

Please do keep learning and please keep an open mind.

Ironically, it is the very response you have articulated which concerns myself and other posters when faced with a BPD parent dying in dealing with those family and friends around us who may judge us on ignorance and ill conception.

We are victims. They are abusers. We grieve for us - not them. We forgive for us - not them. We heal for us. We protect ourselves. We heal and move forwards.






 
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« Reply #18 on: February 10, 2017, 07:20:13 AM »

Yesterday I felt like... .no more excuses for holding back.

Go girl! I'm so proud of you! Love and peace, sister! 
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« Reply #19 on: February 10, 2017, 09:27:48 AM »

Basenji I will not comment on YOUR judgemental reactions to my comments. I will just say that if one cannot find in oneself the strength to forgive and bring closure to bad experiences in life, then so be it. Resentment for past injustices will just ensure that we never heal and find closure.

I have experiense with dealing with a BPD SIL. If I were to die tomorrow, I know he will be celebrating. That does not worry me at all because I do not need any endorsement by anyone to respect myself.

What i know as a fact is that many regret not having said a final farewell to a deceased parent even if he or she may have not been a good parent for whatever reason. Of course, you have every right to keep venting your anger until your last breath. I happen to think that such a solution is not for me.
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« Reply #20 on: February 10, 2017, 10:00:10 AM »


Kwamina , I like the perspective that now is a possibility to move forward. Thanks also for recognizing how complicated and very individual this experience is. Lack of recognition for this and the resulting lack of helpful care is the reason I don't discuss it with 'normal' people who don't have experience or knowledge of BPD -disordered parenting. So it means I am getting less support 'in real life' than I could really use.  But the other perk of being raised by a BPD parent is that I know how to take care of myself with less support than other people have. The ongoing irony!

Jcw127, I suspect your preachy over-reaching is a waste of energy you could better spend on understanding and repairing your own relationship with a BPD. I don't see how your comments help anyone in this conversation. They reflect a lack of education on this topic and a lack of kindness towards the OP (me). I feel it is combative and not necessary. If you're new to the message boards on this site, why not read through a few more topics and the educational links on the right before inserting yourself into two people's  grief?
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« Reply #21 on: February 10, 2017, 10:09:32 AM »

Dear MissyG,

As much as I understand how you feel, don't be discouraged in your own opinion, and don't judge your own emotions.
Not going to your mum's funeral first of all has nothing to do with having respect, or a lack thereof. Really, nothing.
Since the beginning of time the real purpose of a funeral was *not* to pay respect to the deceased / to the remaining family and friends (?), but simply to process the death of this person. The dead person has always been in our life. And then, in a second, he/she is gone. Our brain naturally has trouble understanding that. That's why we make a ceremony around it : to force us deal with the truth. Not to pay respect. We don't organize a funeral for the dead. We organize a funeral *for the ones who are still alive and have to move one without the deceased*.

Secondly I sincerely think people who were not raised by BPD, just don't get it. Of course that should never be a reason to be offensive. But maybe the lack of insight sometimes makes us say things that to others sound really harsh but were not really meant in a harsh way.

Again, don't go judging your own emotions. You can feel any emotion you want because they are yours, and no one has anything to do with them. And there are no wrong emotions. 
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« Reply #22 on: February 10, 2017, 11:27:42 AM »

Staff only

I'd like to remind members that the mission of this forum is to support each other while respecting differing and diverse viewpoints. Please keep the following guidelines in mind when posting:

2.4 Divisive Exchanges: All members should feel safe in their expressions; we are all here to heal from abuse. Please keep in mind that the membership is comprised of diverse experiences and backgrounds; this is a great strength of our community. Forum is healthy when conducted in a respectful, and tolerant manner. Under no circumstances shall members be permitted to engage in divisive or abusive exchanges or be judgmental of other members.

2.2 Advising and Supporting Others: Members should offer advice as peer opinions targeted directly to the host of the thread. Members shall offer only compassionate, well founded and fact based advice. Members critiquing, or challenging the advise of others should offer their comments in a respectful, positive and constructive manner. Members should respect and embrace the opinions of others, not deride them, and recognize diversity is an important part of the learning process.

For more information about our guidelines, click here.
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« Reply #23 on: February 10, 2017, 02:50:07 PM »


Since the beginning of time the real purpose of a funeral was *not* to pay respect to the deceased / to the remaining family and friends (?), but simply to process the death of this person... .We organize a funeral *for the ones who are still alive and have to move one without the deceased*.

Great perspective Fie - thanks. I am trying to let my feelings just be without judging and today I allowed quite a few moments of feeling appreciation for her that I hadn't been able to let myself feel before.  I bought some flowers and a candle - put a tag on the flowers with her years of life and marked  the candle with golden marker, "I am on my way" and "I am not afraid any more". I am burning it every day for a couple hours til it burns out.  I feel quite peaceful and hopeful tonight. Thanks again for the idea of a ritual celebrating being free.

Notwendy sorry I missed your comment. I will consider which organization to donate to in her name.

Thanks Basenji for the pep-comment

Another good thing to come of this is communicating more with the sister I have contact with.   Showing concern and such. I was reading about the Bowen Family Systems perspective on death in the family and they suggested that even estranged family members should take death as an opportunity to make healthy contact. I'm doing my best / what I feel is best for me.

Also thanks heartandwhole for intervening - I was starting to feel unsafe / unsupported and I"m glad you said something.    
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« Reply #24 on: February 10, 2017, 06:27:35 PM »

Basenji I will not comment on YOUR judgemental reactions to my comments. I will just say that if one cannot find in oneself the strength to forgive and bring closure to bad experiences in life, then so be it. Resentment for past injustices will just ensure that we never heal and find closure.

I have experiense with dealing with a BPD SIL. If I were to die tomorrow, I know he will be celebrating. That does not worry me at all because I do not need any endorsement by anyone to respect myself.
It's a fact is that many regret not having said a final farewell to a deceased parent even if he or she may have not been a good parent for whatever reason. Of course, you have every right to keep venting your anger until your last breath. I happen to think that such a solution is not for me.

Please may I share some thought bubbles? They may or may not apply or be on interest to others!  Thought

Dealing with a BPD person in one's life is very challenging for all of us. In that regard, I think we are all here on this website to learn and heal and support and we are united in that challenge.

Yes, you are absolutely right, developing "forgiveness" and taming our emotions (including anger) are key parts of the deal (and obviously part of the 21 step healing process presented on this website): I think many, if not all, would agree!

That said, the dynamics of a child handling a BPD parent are likely very different to a parent handling a BPD child / in law.

The former case may involve intrusive abuse with extensive impacts lasting well into adulthood: the latter may raise issues of frustration in trying to help and support the next generation and possibly issues of perceived disrespect flowing from the younger to the elder generation.

Whether you are the parent or the child coping with a borderline person obviously lends a difference in perspective. In my opinion, it would be awful to watch a loved one come under the influence of a BPD person and try to find ways to be supportive of the loved one.

Ironically, in terms of anger, both myself and the OP were surprised by the lack of emotion (i.e. absence of anger / grief, etc) upon the loss of a BPD parent.

With the greatest respect, the relevant corollary would be how you felt if in very tragic circumstances your SIL was lost to the family. How would you feel at that time - that the man deserved any respect having caused so much upset in the family and so much worry about helping your beautiful daughter and granddaughter?

The question is how we might feel compromised or conflicted when we lose the borderline person!

No doubt my uBPD mother has profound feelings of abandonment  - she may even feel I am very disrespectful. Yet it is her expectations that are unreasonable and her view of the world (generated by her psychological "illness" which is out of whack and creating the perceptions of disrespect. As the adult child I have no doubt that I am doing the right thing to draw boundaries to protect myself! Obviously, my boundaries will cause her a sense of hurt and to feel disrespected. But those boundaries are necessary - I have a right to protect myself from her abuse and it isn't going to help her by rewarding bad behaviours.

As the child of borderline parent we may have to "say goodbye" to that person on the psychological and emotional level way before they might pass away - ironically, as part of the process to generate forgiveness and purge negative emotions such as anger we might have those goodbyes early. The funeral itself may be meaningless to us.

Notions of "respect" can be powerful in the perceptions of some. A close family friend who is 85 years old has fallen out with his eldest son who was adopted at 5 years old from a orphanage. The reason was that the son did not attend his mother's funeral a few years ago. The father has refused to attempt to reconcile and refuses to contact his son and has even completely disinherited him to the tune of many millions of dollars! The father's rationale appears to be largely based on a perception that the son had disrespected his mother by not attending her funeral.

No doubt the son has compelling reasons for his behaviour. He is not a trouble maker, a bad person, etc., but maybe has struggled in life emotionally due to his childhood.

Strangely his own father has become so attached to a perception of disrespect that he won't even try to reach out to his son in case the son is struggling through some deep hurt or issue - which may simply be that he loved his mother so much that he couldn't face the formality of the funeral day and has his own personal way he wants to say goodbye to his mother and say thank you for the goods things she did for him... .who knows!

Anyway, we all see it differently and each need to reconcile our own personal points of view... .

Like I said, just thought bubbles... . to you and our family in such trying times... .

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« Reply #25 on: February 11, 2017, 05:54:06 AM »

Ironic / funny - This thread is so emblematic of my life! Flashes of distant support, then intense floods of disregard. I don't have any friends away from the keyboard, not anybody I can discuss this with. So I came here to get some emotional resources. What a mixed bag. 

Even though my grief is not 'normal' the death of my uBPD mother  is still putting me in a very reflective place about my life and energetically all deaths in the family have impact, again even if not presentationally 'normal.'

It's okay because I'm prepared but man - what a reminder. Nobody said life was easy or even nice. I will move forward and without bitterness.
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« Reply #26 on: February 11, 2017, 06:58:27 AM »

Hi again MissyG

So how are you feeling today after having had some more time to (start to) process the news of your mother's passing?

Even though my grief is not 'normal' the death of my uBPD mother  is still putting me in a very reflective place about my life and energetically all deaths in the family have impact, again even if not presentationally 'normal.'

I think it's all a matter of perspective. For an outsider looking in, at first glance your current grief process might not seem normal. However, when you consider what has come before, a difficult childhood with a disordered parent, followed by 18 years of no contact with that parent, it makes sense that your emotional response to receiving the news of your mother's passing, could be different from someone who had a different background.

Nobody said life was easy or even nice.


Indeed, life just is. Whether it's good or bad, life just is.

Ironically, in terms of anger, both myself and the OP were surprised by the lack of emotion (i.e. absence of anger / grief, etc) upon the loss of a BPD parent.

I think that what Basenji says right here, brings it all back to your initial post that started this thread. In the title of your post you said you feel nothing and asked if you would go through normal stages of grief. I can imagine that the absence of an emotional response to receiving the news of your mother's passing would be somewhat unsettling. I read your post as experiencing the total absence of emotions, neither joyful ones nor sad or angry ones. A lot has already been said about how in many ways you might already have started the grieving process long ago because you in many ways found yourself in the situation that you had to let go of your mother. I can imagine that being NC for 18 years in a way would feel like not having a mother at all, to cope it might have been necassary for you to live your life almost as if you did not have a mother at all. Now hearing that she's passed away is then quite strange and surreal. Her leaving this physical world forever, is also a reminder from a distant past that though you needed to let go of the 'fantasy' loving mother in order to cope, your real BPD mother was in fact still living in this world. This is kind of like living with two different and seperate realities and now these realities have come together again.

Grief can take many forms and the fact that you experienced a near total absence of emotions (no joy, no sadness, no anger etc., just nothing) can also be seen as a sign of all the grief you had already experienced in your life, a sign of the coping mechanisms you had to develop to survive, a sign of the distancing that you needed to do both physically as well as also mentally and emotionally. In time more emotions may yet follow.

If you would like to further explore the topic of grief and all the many layers and stages it might have, I also encourage you to take a look at this thread: Grieving our losses

Take care and wishing you peace and strength as you deal with this

The Board Parrot
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« Reply #27 on: February 11, 2017, 07:35:46 AM »

Hi again Kwamina!   Truly appreciate your kind and understanding words.
So how are you feeling today after having had some more time to (start to) process the news of your mother's passing?

Today I am feeling a bit sluggish, not as speedy in sending the emails and making the posts that will earn me the cash to take up responsibility for the simultaneous crises in my life. Just so happens I lost the lease to an apartment, lost renewal for an academic fellowship, and broke up with a financially supportive significant other just in the three weeks prior to this news. Somehow (not rationally, obviously) I think hearing this news made me feel even less supported in a difficult time, even though in reality my mother and my family offered no significant support, emotionally or materially. Which connects to your other words:

This is kind of like living with two different and seperate realities and now these realities have come together again.

Yes, indeed. And today I am feeling some self pity, like, why me? Why am I the little wretch who had to settle for never really having a mother and now truly, really never will? Fie told me not to judge my feelings so I will keep trying not to. Will just have them and be with them, not judge them.

If you would like to further explore the topic of grief and all the many layers and stages it might have, I also encourage you to take a look at this thread: Grieving our losses
 

Great link - I will read through that and take what comfort and illumination I can. I think by tonight or tomorrow I will be back in go-get-em mode.

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« Reply #28 on: February 11, 2017, 10:48:59 AM »

Hello MissyG ! 

Excerpt
Ironic / funny - This thread is so emblematic of my life! Flashes of distant support, then intense floods of disregard.

Try to accept this. As Kwamina said, life is as it is. Support comes and goes, disregard comes and goes. Luckily we can concentrate on the support and like that the support even comes to seem a lot bigger, and the disregard then also suddenly doesn't seem like disregard anymore.

We all have our own backgrounds. Comments here and in real life are always made by real, not perfect people who have an own background. People who probably in most cases don't mean harm when they say something that we still can percieve as unfair or as disregardful. And also we have our own colored glasses, like them. A comment may be very hurtful for me, while it could be entirely harmless for you.
Everything depends on how you look at it.

   
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« Reply #29 on: February 11, 2017, 02:31:42 PM »

Just so happens I lost the lease to an apartment, lost renewal for an academic fellowship, and broke up with a financially supportive significant other just in the three weeks prior to this news. Somehow (not rationally, obviously) I think hearing this news made me feel even less supported in a difficult time, even though in reality my mother and my family offered no significant support, emotionally or materially. Which connects to your other words:

Yes, indeed. And today I am feeling some self pity, like, why me? Why am I the little wretch who had to settle for never really having a mother and now truly, really never will?

I do hope you are feeling better today... .oh my... .why is it that those challenging events in life seems to come in batches? By the same token I tend to find that life seems to get back on track as I attend to one issue and then the others fall back into line! Courage!

I have been sharing thoughts with my exGF, who was herself abused as a child (her step father did some creepy psycho-sexual stuff whilst her brother was physically molested by the local catholic persist and the mother refused to intervene in either case).

We have come to look at ourselves as adults who are still carrying our "inner child": sometimes our thoughts / reactions / behaviours are that child in us that is screaming out for love and attention. In her case she cedes her power as an adult to others (e.g. scared to stick up for herself with a boss at work when boundaries are crossed) in my case I can get a mental blockage about doing something I need to do. We both have come to recognise a pattern in response and go about unstitching the steps in our typical responses when required and otherwise observe and let be.  

I had a dream quite recently that I had met this little boy and was hugging that boy to provide comfort - I regard the dream to be symbolic of my attempts to nurture my inner child (I don't have children of my own or any nephews / nieces, etc).  

Even though I have little / controlled contact with my uBPD mother, maybe I am still carrying my inner child and seeking to understand, nurture and re-align that part of myself - in short support the inner child.

When an event happens that inner child screams out again and we need to nurture. I made come notes on reading the book "Silent Partner" - nurture your abandoned inner child (maybe carry an image, speak to the child within - reassure, affirm, encourage).

In short the BPD parent failed to provide that nurturing support (actually the reverse happened - you nurtured the parent!). There is still an unmet need. Your adult side needs to carry and nurture the unmet needs of the inner child and unstitch the patterns of behaviour accrued to survive / self protect the childhood experience. As a child you didn't get the support you needed and deserved from your mother - maybe the event of her passing has brought that child out again!

Strangely enough, I had news from the UK just yesterday that a close friend and somebody integral to the support structure I created for myself as a child had passed away in her mid 40s. I can see that news is going to initiate a period of reflection on aspects of my childhood and perhaps help (despite the tragedy of the news) to work through some of the events of the time (good and bad).

Anyway, my reflections on inner child may or may not apply to your situation, that's what came up reading your post.

Stay strong!  
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