Re: The Good Days are the Worst - II

[SamwizeGamgee]

Every once in a while I catch a wave of what maybe is excitement and joy, coupled with fear of the unknown, when I think about being divorced.  It's like I'm the crazy guy who's about to go on a solo journey, and only I know why, and how important it is.  I feel like I'm about to go against all other wisdom and advice and launch.  And live again.

It's probably not the adventure I might have thought I wanted, or what most people would consider, but, it remains that lost continent and uncharted seas.  Dangers await, but so does the rest of my life. 

I'd hate to list YOLO as the reason to divorce, though.

[flourdust]

One nice thing Samwise... .at the moment I divorced, there were MANY others who stepped out of the woodwork who commented about things they had seen in past years and they KNEW what I had been dealing with.  These included my uncle, my high school football coach, two satellite friends who are now best friends of mine, and plenty of women who have ulterior motives but at least "saw" things and knew it was messed up.  I didn't have to set up a support structure thanks to these people.  I am forever in their debt as they all checked in on me and supported me constantly.

This is exactly right. You may think that you are presenting as a perfect couple, and you may think that nobody knows what your experience is like -- but it's more likely that your friends and family are simply not talking to you about it. My own friends and family members shared their own bad experiences in relationships, as well as letting me know about concerns they'd had about my wife.

You may end up kicking yourself for being the last one to know... .

[Cat Familiar]

Add me to the list of people who've experienced heartfelt disclosures from friends about a former BPD spouse. Apparently people do see more than they necessarily let on, no matter how much one tries to present a good front.

Now my current BPD spouse is much less wack and I don't feel the need to hide the reality of our relationship from my friends. I don't go into detail about the BPD stuff; I save that for here.

Nevertheless, I've been amazed at the acuity of some of my friends in seeing the weaknesses and blind spots in my husband, especially with very little contact with him. Either I have exceptionally perceptive friends or people see more than one thinks.

[KateCat]

It's like I'm the crazy guy who's about to go on a solo journey, and only I know why, and how important it is.  I feel like I'm about to go against all other wisdom and advice and launch.  And live again.

One might almost think you were a character in a Tolkien novel!

I think I've read most of your posting history (my only excuse being that I admire good writing), and I haven't been seeing confusion or indecision as defining characteristics of your struggle. Not even in the beginning, really. Only you can know, but I sense great pain, always, through this journey, and also the inevitability of further change.

 
 

[empath]

I've had friends to whom I've confided, even just a little, say of course, he seems like a difficult person to live with. Others with more information are not that shocked when I talk about the control and abuse. It makes sense to them if they have known us for a while.

[SamwizeGamgee]

Thank you all. I'm not so alone on this journey with you all having been on these roads.
And I guess it crosses with the real Samwise of Tolkien.  He was certainly the altruistic friend, if not caretaker.  Thanks Kate  

[formflier]

you may never pull the trigger, but you should take the gun safety class.

This is great analogy... .!   

[formflier]

  I know I'll get backlash if I ever think of divorce.  No one else can understand what it's like. 

SamwizeGamgee,

I appreciate your openness in these posts and I hope my "pushback" on some thinking doesn't "clam you up".  Stay open with us... .evaluate for yourself is my "pushback" is appropriate... .or if I'm off the mark.

Take a deep... .thoughtful look at what I have quoted above.  What does that indicate about your "thought processes"?

To me, it indicates someone making decisions for yourself, based on what others think about your decisions.

I think we can all understand and identify with the need/desire to have others understand and validate our experiences and decisions in a BPD relationship. 

Do you think the people in your family that you wish to validate you ever actually will?  Do you believe they can gain the knowledge and insight that you are gaining here at bpdfamily?

Does it really matter what they think? 

Now that I know your story better... .and understand your religious point of view better... .I will challenge you on your thinking with some scripture.

When I see concepts presented in old and new testament... .I especially think we should sit up and take notice.


Genesis 2:24
Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.

Ephesians 5:31
Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.

When I think about the concept of "leaving" a father and mother, I translate that as "my primary focus will be... ." on my marriage relationship.

To me, that means the decisions you make are based on what's best for that marital relationship... .and by extension... .the children that come from that relationship.  Parents... .aunts... .uncles... .friends... .all of that takes a distant 4th or 5th place.

Does this help?  See the point?

Thoughts?

FF

[SamwizeGamgee]

You're taking me to task, I am with on this train of thought with you.  However, I should complete my sentence that you quoted. Here goes: I know I will get backlash [if I decide on divorce] and no one else can understand what [my marriage is] like, ... ..and I accept that.  I've flown in the face of backlash and unpopularity.  I've made tough calls and gone it alone in my life before.  

I'm aware that the unwitting in world of the nons have no idea what it's like.  In considering divorce, and catching myself trying to explain why I would even think of divorcing a "good and nice" wife, I have settled on either saying that I like meatloaf and she doesn't, or that we are just different on a core level.  My answer might depend on how deep the audience is thinking.  As for divorce, I'm looking for a decision from within, not validation from without.

I don't bring up BPD, or verbal, and emotional abuse, or blackmail.  If anything, I've seen that in circles where a man says his wife has Borderline Personality Disorder, for those who even have heard of it, it's more as a punch line.

[Grey Kitty]

I'm aware that the unwitting in world of the nons have no idea what it's like.  In considering divorce, and catching myself trying to explain why I would even think of divorcing a "good and nice" wife, I have settled on either saying that I like meatloaf and she doesn't, or that we are just different on a core level.

The people who matter will understand.

The people who don't understand aren't the ones who matter.

Really--people who will stay in your life, people who care about you will believe that you did the best you could in a difficult situation, even if they don't know exactly what went on in your marriage that you chose to end it.

And people who conclude that there is something wrong with you and write you off without being willing to hear your side of it aren't going to have much of a place in your life. Yes, losing them will hurt, and I'm sure that family members choosing sides will be awful... .but it will work out in the end.

And most people anywhere near your age have been through a divorce or breakup, and if not, they have close friends or relatives who have; They KNOW that 99% of divorces aren't between one angel and one devil, so they won't conclude that something must be wrong with you for ending this "perfect" marriage.

Certainly your children have seen what both you and your wife are really like and will draw their own conclusions.

I think you are letting that fear go, and making your choice for yourself and your children. I trust you will make the right choice.

[formflier]

Great response!

Back up a bit and look at the big life lesson in your thinking... .please note that I keep trying to direct you "back to your thinking"

I would much rather you "think"

"How am I going to manage the inevitable backlash that will come from a divorce decision"?

You wisely know that many will speak "uninvited".  Perhaps over the years you have "allowed" this... .when you shouldn't have.  Perhaps this is a general way of thinking and behaving that you need to focus on right now instead of waiting for a divorce decision... .that may or may not ever get made.

Asked another way  "How do you respond to people asking or commenting about things "inside" your boundaries?"

Keep up the good responses!

FF

[flourdust]

"How am I going to manage the inevitable backlash that will come from a divorce decision"?

I would disagree with "inevitable backlash," unless SG happens to know a bunch of his friends and family are judgmental busybodies who routinely shun people in their inner circles. In which case, it might be better to wipe the slate clean of them!

My experience is that about 90% of friends treat your divorce as if you had experienced an illness or job loss. They express sympathy, they ask how you're doing, they may offer to help, but mostly they stay out of your business. The other 10% share their own experiences to help you feel not so alone.

[formflier]

I would disagree with "inevitable backlash," unless SG happens to know a bunch of his friends and family are judgmental busybodies who routinely shun people in their inner circles. In which case, it might be better to wipe the slate clean of them!
 

A much more well said version of what I was going after in my post... .when I was discussing how he had reacted to "backlash" before.

To me the steps after a backlash (about any subject) would be... .

1.  Thank someone for having concern enough/valuing you enough to speak up... .followed by an assurance that at the moment you need their support... .and that if anything further is needed... you will let them know.  (Basically a polite way of letting them know they are potentially overstepping).

If they provide verbal support and stop "backlash"... .then likely it is best to keep them in your camp.

If they continue to provide "backlash"... .

2.  Move your camp... .or get them out of your camp. 

FF

[SamwizeGamgee]

I've been contemplating this topic.  I realize that I am quite unconcerned with backlash as it happens outside of the home.  I am aware that it will be there, and it might create a stir, but, I am not invested in anyone or anything that relates to it.
 
I also am not looking to fix the marriage, or dissect it as to what motivates my wife, or how BPD may, or may not, be present.  I thrived after learning about BPD.  It gave me rules to live by, and a greater understanding of how and why things are how they are.  That said, I don't think I'm at a stage that I need to plot a recovery or maintain a "camp."  @FF I get the idea that you're trying to look for the thinking, the reason, the problem, and perhaps a solution, next step, or a fix.  All of which I appreciate.  The viewpoint of others is priceless in this situation, especially after so long in this marriage where my awareness of "normal" is long gone.  I can't thank you enough.  However, I just don't feel I can invest the effort.  A car analogy; Let's say it would take five gallons of gas to get to where I could do something to learn more about BPD, help my wife, and my marriage.  It also takes five gallons of gas to get to a safe place.  I've got a twenty gallon tank, and it's down to 1/4 full. 

I accept what is happening.  I am aware of my struggle, my predicament, and pain - mostly at my own hand for staying stuck for so long.  I am only changing myself at this point. 

[formflier]

  I am only changing myself at this point. 

 

Time and effort well spent!

FF

[SamwizeGamgee]

FF - true!  If my travail with BPD produced anything positive, it was the requirement to do work on myself.  So, yes, effort well spent.

Here's a catch up and an example of what is happening.  Last Friday, I feel calm and resolved that this marriage has to end for me to survive.  Friday night, I sponsor a pizza movie night with the family. Thing go pretty drama free.  Saturday morning I take my son to a scouting fundraiser activity, in the afternoon I play with the kids and get chores done.  My wife goes out for groceries - again, drama free (though I picked up a sense that she felt "abandoned" since the kids didn't want to go with her into town, and I was busy).  Sunday was church, then in the afternoon, a video call to my college kid, board games with the older kids, and a good time in all.  Wife was mostly on her own.  Last night my wife invites intimacy.    So, it seems the more I carry on with life and ignore my wife, the better things are.

... .And, I'm driving to work this morning wondering out loud why is it that "the good days are the worst." Because they hide all the dysfunction, and repeats what I realized in this thread - that I can survive and make my own happiness.  

The problem is, that in spite of a good day, a good week, or year even, - the fear, anxiety, long term lack of fulfillment, blackmail, core unhappiness, and my wife's harmful behavior in parenting - all take a toll.  It's like feeling fine when you're still really sick.  

[flourdust]

The problem is, that in spite of a good day, a good week, or year even, - the fear, anxiety, long term lack of fulfillment, blackmail, core unhappiness, and my wife's harmful behavior in parenting - all take a toll.  It's like feeling fine when you're still really sick.  

As someone who's been in your position and is now divorcing, let me just say this: I have those good weekends all the time now, and without the fear and anxiety of what my wife has done/might do lurking overhead like a storm cloud.

[SamwizeGamgee]

Yes.  I value peace now.  And the solidarity it brings to feel my own feelings.  I just feel so mean for considering divorce when there are good days, and I think she's trying.

[formflier]

  @FF I get the idea that you're trying to look for the thinking, the reason, the problem, and perhaps a solution, next step, or a fix.  All of which I appreciate.   

"Fix"... .I don't like.  With human reasoning and emotions... .it's better (IMO) to stay away from that kind of thinking.

I love the thinking of "next step".  Seems much smaller and more manageable.

Plus... .looking to see if there is a better way for you to show... .or more rightly said... for your wife to feel... that you have more empathy for her.

FF

[SamwizeGamgee]

FF - I just have to accept that my wife has an extraordinarily high need for validation.  It might be unreasonable, abnormal, and nigh impossible to meet, but, I accept that's how she is.  I try  and remember (sometimes too late) that's just the way she is.  I normally am considerate, and at least an average person for giving validation.  Myself, I don't think I need it as much as most people - I've been marching to my won drummer for a long time.  But, I do try to put it on thicker than most with her. 

One problem is that I have detached so much from her, I don't empathize much  - and it's hard to extend a validation "olive branch" to her when I am so lucid about our past, and how badly I feel about our relationship.  There is still more for me to work on, but, at some point it feels like a lost cause pouring effort into the abyss.

[Lucky Jim]

One problem is that I have detached so much from her, I don't empathize much  - and it's hard to extend a validation "olive branch" to her when I am so lucid about our past, and how badly I feel about our relationship.  There is still more for me to work on, but, at some point it feels like a lost cause pouring effort into the abyss.

Hey Sam, Agree, her needs are a black hole.  No matter how many hoops I jumped through, it was never enough.  I thought that if I jumped higher and tried harder, I would reach a plateau of tranquility in my marriage.  That plateau proved to be a mirage, however, because I never attained it.

Detachment leads to disengagement, as you note, and pretty soon if you're like me you may stop sharing any personal information with your spouse.  I declined to discuss my feelings, in order to protect myself from abuse.  Yet at that point it wasn't much of a r/s anymore.

LJ

[ACObound]

One problem is that I have detached so much from her, I don't empathize much  - and it's hard to extend a validation "olive branch" to her when I am so lucid about our past, and how badly I feel about our relationship.  There is still more for me to work on, but, at some point it feels like a lost cause pouring effort into the abyss.

Right there with you.  Could have written the exact same sentences.     I have been in this relationship for almost 40 years.   I think I saw in one of your posts, like me, you learned about BPD way later in the r/s.  Is that what keeps you from making the final decision?     

[MovingOn23]

I can identify with a  lot of this. Last November, following some of the most detached times we've ever had, my BPD wife sat down and began the "we need to talk" discussion, saying she thought she needed to be "on her own." We filed for divorce together at the courthouse, which began a mandatory 60-day waiting period. Then on Christmas day, she moved out into her own apartment. There were many tearful times between us during this timeframe, lamenting the end of our 25-year relationship.

Then around New Year's, when I went out of town for a trip without her, she said she never meant for us to head straight for divorce and, for the first time, talked about a willingness to go to counseling and work on things - even the things that we had not been able to bring ourselves to work on before (both individually, and as a couple).

We are a little more than a month into counseling (both individual and couples counseling) and I have seen some positive changes. That said, part of me is just waiting to see how long it lasts - whether real, lasting change is possible or not.

In the meantime, we are truly having the best time together that I think we ever have had. We are anything but detached - communicating far more completely and effectively, and the more I don't "walk on eggshells," the better she seems to respond. It all feels very counter-intuitive to me, but so far it seems to be working.

But don't think that I am so naive to think that it's all just going to be sunshine, lipops, and rainbows - I know better. And remember, we aren't living together, so a lot of the everyday stresses that would exist if we were just aren't there right now.

But this "separation honeymoon" phase is absolutely making me evaluate whether or not I want to end the marriage or not - in that respect, I totally get how "the good days are the worst." In some ways I feel like maybe I'm in denial, but on the other hand I'm seeing us interact in ways that I've never experienced before. And it isn't just her stuff (which she is definitely working on and making noticeable changes to how she approaches, or doesn't approach, situations), but my piece of things too - the validation, the boundaries, which do make a difference.

[ACObound]

We are a little more than a month into counseling (both individual and couples counseling) and I have seen some positive changes. That said, part of me is just waiting to see how long it lasts - whether real, lasting change is possible or not.

hey Movin, so glad you are you are feeling some success in the couple counseling.   My experiences(we now have blown through 2 different ones) was not so good with couples counseling.   First month was great. some progress in helping us communicate better.     My goal in going to couples(I have been going to individual 2 + years) was to hopefully have a trained therapist, observe and hopefully suggest that she(pwBPD) needs some individual counseling.  Low and behold he recognized the need and suggested to her in two different sessions that she should see a therapist.  2 sessions later she quit with a lame excuse for not continuing.
I am interested how were able to get your pwBPD to got to seek help through a therapist?

[Grey Kitty]

The problem is, that in spite of a good day, a good week, or year even, - the fear, anxiety, long term lack of fulfillment, blackmail, core unhappiness, and my wife's harmful behavior in parenting - all take a toll.  It's like feeling fine when you're still really sick.  

You know... .given how you struggle with the "good days", stop trying to make sure you have more of them.

What I mean is this--we are afraid to confront bad behavior on "bad days" for fear of making them worse, for fear of having "worse days" or not having a "good day" tomorrow.

If you act as if you have nothing to fear... .you can get REALLY GOOD at enforcing boundaries against all the bad behavior... .and you will discover that your fears really were worse than the reality was.

And some of those boundaries are that we choose to make a life for ourselves that has things we love and value unrelated to our spouse... .and that we won't let our spouse take away from us.

Give that a try... .and see how you feel about staying after that becomes the new normal.

[SamwizeGamgee]

Thanks.  Once again sage advice. 
I have noticed that I feel better as a result of the times I've been myself.  I have learned that if I stay calm and keep a simple script about what I want, how I feel, it kind of sets things straight.  It seems like the more I consider her feelings, needs, wants, the more twisted and unhappy we both are.

Some of that happened when I did stop caring.  I remind myself that when considering divorce, I should not worry about hurting her feelings by something small but important - and possibly helpful.  So, I think I'm applying your advice already.  And it hasn't made staying too much more possible or tolerable.   

I think you mentioned in a previous post too that it's me and my feelings that are at issue.  It's not a question of her crazy and possible damage on her side.  It's me evaluating me, for my sake. 

Thanks again.  Your comments are highly valued.

[formflier]

My tweak is that I would be deliberate about considering your wife's feelings... and attempting to empathize.   That means there is a limit. 

We all know there is a black hole of need that can't be filled.  That doesn't mean we shouldn't try to empathize

So... .practically... .really listen... focus... reflect back... .spend 5 minutes in her horrible world.  Because you are being deliberate... .you know it will end in 5 minutes.  So pour everything you have into being with her... .in her world... .then... .wish her well and go about your day.   

None of this suggests staying in a dysregulation or abuse.  Just as validation won't be effective when the flamethrower is out... .neither will empathy and listening.

Leaving her with an assurance you will revisit the issue with her later and will be thinking about her.

Note... .she gets to react however she wants to react.  You do as you have planned.

We get into trouble we when feel the need to fix... .or to stick with them until its over.  We know it will never be over.

Last thought:  This can be on your terms as well.  If "right now" is not good... .then set a time.  You are in charge of your empathy.  Not her.

You SHOULD empathize with her... .on your terms... .that are healthy for you.

Thoughts?

FF

[Lucky Jim]

We get into trouble we when feel the need to fix... .or to stick with them until its over.  We know it will never be over.

Agree, FF.  As her spouse, I thought I had a duty to listen until it was over, which could take hours and hours.  I lacked boundaries and had to learn how to set internal time limits.  It wasn't totally effective, because then she chased me around the house for hours, but it was better than taking a tongue lashing.  So I took late-night walks and kept an overnight bag in my car for trips to a motel, when necessary.

The need to fix is unhealthy, in my view, as you note.  I had to learn to let go of that need, because it was so ingrained in me.  Who doesn't want to fix a problem and be the White Knight?  It's tempting, but leads to codependency.

LJ

[Grey Kitty]

I have learned that if I stay calm and keep a simple script about what I want, how I feel, it kind of sets things straight.  It seems like the more I consider her feelings, needs, wants, the more twisted and unhappy we both are.

Her feelings and needs matter, but they aren't your responsibility. 

There's a key element here. Making "I statements" instead of "You statements" is much healthier. You're doing it. Again, this is great progress.

Just guessing... .but when you hear about her feelings, her needs, her wants, they are expressed as "you statements", about what she is demanding YOU do to manage HER feelings.

And nothing you do or say about that directly will do any good; don't engage her at that level, as you've figured it out.

Yes, it is a double standard--She's not capable of living up to it, and that leaves you. It doesn't make what she's doing OK in any way... .it is simply that expecting her to "get it" is gonna leave you disappointed.

[Lucky Jim]

I have noticed that I feel better as a result of the times I've been myself.  I have learned that if I stay calm and keep a simple script about what I want, how I feel, it kind of sets things straight

Samwize: I like what you're saying.  I'm probably repeating myself but, after leaving my marriage, I made a resolution to be as authentic as possible.  In other words, I strive to be myself.

Seems like that's what you're doing, too.   

LuckyJim