I'm ready to learn the tools - IV

[Oncebitten]

This has gone on for months, she cannot/will not let this man go.  

She always says that if it comes down to it and she is forced to choose then its me.  There have been times where he seeminly has given her the same ultimatum (so she says)... .and he supposedly has told her that they can't be friends anymore, but something always brings him back around.  there are days where I wonder if this man really exists and if he does, does he really do/say the things he has... .there has been something off about him since he returned to her life.  one day she doesn't need him, the next she realizes how much she missed him... .

IDK, the whole thing confuses me.

[Grey Kitty]

IDK, the whole thing confuses me.

She tells you she would choose you over him. Repeatedly. (No idea what she tells him, and honestly, that doesn't even matter!)

And her actions are to keep both you and him around. Repeatedly.

You have two choices here:

• Be in a r/s with her, when she has something like an emotional affair with another guy. (Assuming that is all it is, and for now, that seems credible.)
• End your r/s with her, because you want somebody who can be more faithful to you / more monogamous than she is capable of being

You are confused because you truly, deeply WANT a different choice where she actually is in a r/s with you, and doesn't keep this other guy around.

But that choice doesn't really exist. And wanting it has you confused as !#$!

[livednlearned]

I wonder if this man really exists and if he does, does he really do/say the things he has

 

That's a pretty big gap in trust, OB.

[Oncebitten]

LNL

I know it is, its just hard.  I believe that he exists, and I believe her for the most part on what she says he says/does.  Its just really hard bc she confuses me.  Maybe its a level of FOG, I just can't understand a lot of what has happened in regards to him over the course of the r/s. Perhaps her emotions are just more complex than I can wrap my head around.  She told me once how she had gone to lunch with him, and he asked her if I knew she had gone.  She told him yes, OB is okay with it he trusts me (and I do). His reply to her was if it were me I wouldn't have let you go.   And in her mind that response is ok bc he said it but if I say it its not ok. 

I am not a big fan of ultimatums, but I am really at the point where I feel like I should see what happens if I tell her... .its him or its me. 

[Grey Kitty]

I am not a big fan of ultimatums, but I am really at the point where I feel like I should see what happens if I tell her... .its him or its me.

Based on what you've told us, here's what I'd expect out of that kind of ultimatum:

She would agree, tell you that you are more important, and that she chooses you.

And later (days, weeks, months?) she would be back in touch with him.

What do you think she would do?

[Meili]

Let's slow down for just one moment, OK, OB?

What is exactly is confusing to you about this? I think that it's hard for those of us not in your situation to see what you're seeing. As a result, it all looks really clear to us. But, our seeing it clearly doesn't really help you. So, tell us what it is that is confusing.

[Meili]

She would agree, tell you that you are more important, and that she chooses you.

And later (days, weeks, months?) she would be back in touch with him.

For what it's worth, what GK just wrote is exactly what I repeatedly did to my x with one slight twist, I would contact the ow when my x and I would split.

If I recall correctly, that's kinda what happens to you though isn't it? Your gf gets angry and does the whole "let's be friends" bit, reaches out to him, re-ignites that friendship, and then reconciles with you. He's now back in the picture and she feels justified in not keeping her promise because the two of you were not a couple at the time.

Of course, I may be projecting my own bad behavior onto her, so feel free to tell me that I'm wrong.

[Notwendy]

I think in general - ultimatums imposed on another person are not effective. Ultimatums- boundaries- on ourselves are. Saying to oneself " this is my limit" is more of an internal boundary- and acting on it.

An ultimatum needs to be enforceable- and that is hard to do with an adult- in a LDR especially. I think if you were to make one about this guy, she may just be more discreet about it- see him anyway.

You say ( and she says?) she loves you and wants to be with you. Those are words, but her actions don't coincide with them. Although this is confusing, I think it is important to consider actions as revealing what she wants. She wants to be with you, and him too.

Your choice is whether or not to accept this.

I also see a potential Karpman triangle with the three of you. I also wonder if the longing for something you can't have isn't part of the appeal/( addiction) of this woman. Emotional drama can have an addictive quality- the longing, the getting together ( high ) then the let down ( withdrawal) and craving again- which can mimic drugs. I also think we are naturally inclined to want what we can't have- and day to day life with a partner can get routine and not-dramatic. Some people like the drama and are bored with the ordinary.

Like a drug, the high/low intense patterns have their appeal- but also have consequences. This woman may like the drama of two uncertain guys wanting her.

[Oncebitten]

Meili

what confuses me is how someone who tells you they love you everyday, and goes on and on about how they want to be with you can keep causing the same hurt over and over.  She knows that he upsets me, has asked me if I would rather she didn't see him.  I tell her yes and she always says ok.  Then something comes up, often after weeks of not speaking to him and she tells me that she is going to do whatever with him.  Truthfully its always something innocent, lunch, or whatever.  But she knows I dont like him and dont want her with him. I am sure this comes off as a bit controlling, but I assure you this is limited to one man.

I really think this is an issue like you have Meili, she keeps him around bc he allows her to not be completely vulnerable with me.

Yes in the past she would run to him when we were bad.  She has quit doing that thankfully.  This last reconnect was bc of him, she tells me.  He had a family crisis and needed to talk to someone, she was already familiar with the situation.

Here's the odd thing, sometimes she asks me about doing stuff with him.  Other times she just tells me, about it.  I always object or growl about it a bit.  She gets mad tells me she should be able to do what she wants.  Then asks how I feel, when I explain it upsets me she then cancels with him or tells him no.  I guess thats whats confusing.  Why must we go through the whole process?

[Oncebitten]

I agree that ultimatums are bad.  I dont like giving them. I just get upset with the situation.  She seems completely unable to see how I feel about this.  I realize this is a trust issue on my part, but he is essentially an ex boyfriend, with whom she has a somewhat intimate relationship.  And he has never neen ok with just a platonic relationship.  He says he is now, but I really dont buy it. She feels I am being unreasonable, when I say I don't like you spending time with him bc he is in love with you, she always counters with but what about me I dont love him.   She seems to forget all the times she has used him as a threat... .She has quit doing this, but every time we used to have a fight, it was f u... .I will just call him, he knows how to treat a woman, h*ll he just lives right up the rd I can go see him and do whatever I want with him... .I got a long memory so all that replays in my mind when she talks about seeing him.

[Meili]

what confuses me is how someone who tells you they love you everyday, and goes on and on about how they want to be with you can keep causing the same hurt over and over.

... ./... .

I really think this is an issue like you have Meili, she keeps him around bc he allows her to not be completely vulnerable with me.

... ./... .

Why must we go through the whole process?

I think that you can find the answer to your own question in what you wrote.

I also believe that by reconciling the first two parts that I quoted, you can end your confusion.

It appears that you are looking at it from your own perspective and trying to understand how she thinks. Applying how you would do, think about, and view things won't work. It creates an unreasonable expectation on her which is neither fair to her, nor the basis for a stable relationship.

If you view things, based on what you wrote, from her perspective, it has nothing to do with you. It isn't about whether or not she loves you. It's about how she feels, her needs, and her comfort level. Does that make sense?

If that does make sense, and if it is in fact true (her actions seem to suggest that it's true), we go back to the question that everyone keeps asking you: Is this something that you can radically accept and tolerate in a relationship?

[Oncebitten]

Meili


I have come to realize what you are telling me is true.  And I do believe her, that its me she loves and wants to be with.  We actually had this talk, she recognizes that this all upsets me, and understands why.  She admits that if we weren't in a long distance relationship this wouldn't be an issue.  And I can understand that.  Like I said this issue is limited to one man, not sure if I can pull off radical acceptance or not.

[Meili]

She admits that if we weren't in a long distance relationship this wouldn't be an issue.

So, you don't think that it's a vulnerability issue then, but rather a proximity issue? That she's telling you that she needs another male in her life because you are so far away?

Now I'm the one who is confused.

[Skip]

... .not sure if I can pull off radical acceptance or not.

This is what you can know with some certainty. This is a love triangle. She has two men courting her and this is collectively meeting her needs. She has an emotional attachment (at some level) to both and wants to keep them in her life (we can love two people at the same time). She has mastered a complex balancing act to make this work and to make herself feel reputable (as opposed to lying and cheating). Both men have accepted this - if anything - they are more attentive because of it.

This is what you can't know - whether her characterization of the two relationships to you is completely accurate. There is truth for sure, but at the same time, she would be truthful in telling the other guy that this is a cyber-relationship and she asked you not to move to her town and she is not allowing you to visit her. There are three things that suggest that you don't have an accurate picture of what is going on and this is most likely what is confusing you. There is a significant disconnect in her words and her actions.

• She says the problem is distance, you have begged her to let you resolve it, but does not want to let you resolve it
• She continues to court her ex. She is relating to him in ways to keep him engaged (best to assume that he is not a hapless, idiot). He is begging her to resolve it - she won't.
• She knows this hurts you (it would anyone), you have begged her to stop, and she won't.

What is confusing you is that you are trying desperately to rationalize your feelings, and her words and her actions to create a narrative where you are her one true love - but the narrative doesn't really hold together. You keep trying and hoping... .but you just can't create a narrative where you are her one true love... .it only makes sense if parts of the verifiable reality are significantly changed.

Radical acceptance has been mentioned in this thread. Here are the exact words of the originator of the concept, Marsha Linehan:

So what's Radical Acceptance?  What do I mean by the word 'radical'? Radical means complete and total.  It's when you accept something from the depths of your soul.  When you accept it in your mind, in your heart, and even with your body. It's total and complete.

When you've radically accepted something, you're not fighting it.  It's when you stop fighting reality.  That's what radical acceptance is.

The first step to making this less heartbreaking for you is to accept the reality. Stop fighting it.

Once you let go of this very complex narrative that is based on accepting things you can't know for sure and don't line up with the things you do know, once you accept the reality, then you can better decide what is right for you.

[Oncebitten]

Meili


this is what she tells me... .she says its a proximity problem... .I feel that the real issue may be what you have experienced.

Anyways at least I am not the only one confused. 

[Oncebitten]

Skip

Heres what I know, her not wanting me to move there is not as simple as it sounds.  I have a kid still in school and she doesn't want me to move so far away and then regret it... .she fears and rightfully so that this would lead to me resenting her and thus tearing apart the r/s.  we are stuck in this odd dynamic until one of us can relocate... .that is the plan but a ways off.  As to why she keeps the ex around she says he is a friend and honestly there have been multiple times he has invited her to things, she asks and if I object she doesnt go.

I do believe that if we were closer this would not be an issue.

Like I said I realize that this is a issue for me.  I have to figure out how to be ok with this... .or I have to walk. 

[Skip]

... .she doesn't want me to move so far away and then regret it... .she fears and rightfully so that this would lead to me resenting her and thus tearing apart the r/s.

So she is concerned about creating resentments and yet she doesn't let you visit and she keeps an old lover around and you fight about these issues for months. Doesn't that create resentments that are tearing the relationship apart - now?

Can both of these things be true? A resentment narrative falls apart pretty quickly.

How about a commitment narrative.

• Having you relocate is a big commitment. She is not ready for that. That's sensible.
• Having you visit her routinely 1 weekend a quarter is a much lower commitment. She is not ready for that, either.
• Getting rid of the ex boyfriend is also a commitment. She is not ready for that either.

[Oncebitten]

both are true.  the visiting issue has been resolved.

the only point of contention for me in the relationship outside of distance  (which cant be changed yet) is the friend.

for her its almost a trust thing.  ie she doesn't love him and doesn't want a romantic r/s with him so why should I object to her seeing him on a platonic basis once in awhile.

[Meili]

she doesn't love him and doesn't want a romantic r/s with him so why should I object to her seeing him on a platonic basis once in awhile.

That's a very good question. Having been on both sides of a triangle such as this, I have two questions that may help you answer yours:

1. What do you think is happening now that makes you so uncomfortable?
and
2. What are you afraid will happen in the future that makes you so uncomfortable?

Those questions will probably be hard for you to answer because I'm betting that they require you to admit some truths that you've not been ready to look at yet.

[Skip]

she doesn't love him and doesn't want a romantic r/s with him so why should I object to her seeing him on a platonic basis once in awhile.

How much time was there from the time they ended until the time the two of you started seeing each other? Do you have any indication/suspicions that they have been more than platonic since you met her?

[Grey Kitty]

for her its almost a trust thing.  ie she doesn't love him and doesn't want a romantic r/s with him so why should I object to her seeing him on a platonic basis once in awhile.

YES. It is a trust thing. 100%

She SAYS these things. (Her past actions don't seem to match what she says--at best, she wants a platonic r/s with him but he pushes those limits against her wishes.)

Do you trust her to keep this a platonic relationship?

Not being able to trust her in this r/s is a real problem. If you don't trust her, that's a problem. If she isn't trustworthy, that's a problem too. Either one is very hard to overcome.

[Oncebitten]

Everyone,

I want to trust her, and I do.  But she has this bad habbit of running to him when we are bad.  My fear is that she hangs out with him, we have a brief split for whatever ridiculous reason... .and she sleeps with him.  It happened once before.  

Her thing is if you are in a r/s you stand by your partner.  If they dont like someone then you don't like them and you dont associate with them.  That rule applies to everyone on earth but that man... .she doesn't see it that way... .since she loves me and not him I should have nothing to fear.

If it didnt hurt so much I'd laugh at her warped since of reality.

[Notwendy]

OB, how often do the two of you see each other in person?

From what I can read- this man lives near her and you do not?

[Oncebitten]

Everyone,

we see each other every couple weeks.  Yes he lives fairly close to her, I am a decent ways away. I live far enough away I can't see her every day but could see her more often if she would agree to it.

[Grey Kitty]

This is another case where her words and her actions give you a mixed message.

She has told you that if it wasn't for this distance, your problems with her would go away.

I can't see her every day but could see her more often if she would agree to it.

Please resolve these mixed messages in favor of her actions.

She will deny it if you say it, but clearly she is unwilling to see you more, or is incapable of seeing you more, or (if she allowed it!) would really blow up the relationship if you lived closer to her. Note: I've read several stories here of people who had a pretty good long distance relationship for years, then moved in together, and then the BPD abuse and other bad behavior really exploded.

Yes, she WANTS the closeness and the intimacy with you. But she cannot handle it. I'm 99% sure that if she gets that forced onto her she will blow up the relationship. Given her history, most likely is to impulsively break up with you in a fight, then go sleep with her other "platonic" friend immediately.

[Oncebitten]

Everyone,

She has agreed that we can and should see each other more often.  But I agree she does send mixed messages in a sense.  She still contends that its really just a matter of fairness.  That I shouldn't have to come see her every time which sounds really sincere.  My thing is that right now I have the flexibility to come see her, she doesn't have the same flexibility with her schedule as I do.  Eventually that will change for her and she will be able to come see me.  I am content to make the trip to see her until her situation changes.  She seems to have this reservation that if I do all the traveling then she will some how owe me something, which isn't the case.  Also she doesn't like me coming to town for just the day, she would prefer that when we see each other its for a more extended time period.  Which I get, I am not the biggest fan of spending the entire day on the rd to spend a few hrs with her, but on the flip-side right now all our situation allows is that so I will take what I can get.    

[livednlearned]

Hey OB,

My T pointed out that I was very easily "bamboozled" (her words) by my ex. Same as with my dad.

Do you see that happening with your GF? She says great things! They are so reasonable and believable, and even seem kind and thoughtful.

I guarantee you that when someone is genuinely reasonable and believable and kind and thoughtful, their actions and words are pretty consistent. It feels drama free and easy. There are no mixed messages. Things aren't confusing. They aren't duplicitous.

What do you think about GK's comment:

Please resolve these mixed messages in favor of her actions.

Is there a history for you of someone saying one thing and doing another?

[Oncebitten]

LNL


I suppose I get bamboozled so to speak.  She asks for one thing then something happens that has nothing to do with me and then everything goes out the window.

No I dont really have a history of someone telling me something and doing something different, just her.

[Oncebitten]

It's amazing how everything can seem like its right, how all signs point towards the promise of a future.  How two people couldn't be more in love... .and then the rug gets pulled out from under you.

So apparently the other woman from the summer posted something online somewhere... .In reference to all the struggles she has had.  She made mention of me and what we had, another person brought this to the attention of my gf.  Now I am once again a liar, a cheater, a keeper of secrets... .and we are over.  She regrets she ever met me, I am spineless, classless,... .well you get the point.
I have been blocked and cut off... .I really have no defense bc I dont even know what she read or where she read it.   She refused to tell me where it was posted or who pointed it out to her.  All I know is there are a lot of people who make it a point to involve themselves in my love life.  I am truly at a loss as what to do.  From what she described there was nothing new in the post... .but it brought up all those old feelings.  I offered to address it if she would tell me where I could find it and was accused if playing dumb bc I should know where it was... .I am beyond sick about this, its been months since this happened, its been a long time since she brought it up... .and yet it's like it happened yesterday.  I love her... .but I really dont have an idea as what to do anymore.   She threatened to go sleep with her "friend" last night... .I guess out of spite... .I guess even if we work this out... .I will pay for this mistake for the rest of my life... .no matter how honest, how faithful, how loyal I am to her.  Its to bad, bc I know we are good together but I guess love isn't enough.

[Skip]

Once'

I'm one that believes that as your supporter we have three roles, 1) to stand by you, 2) to help you with perspective (its easier/clearer to outsiders), and 3) to educate of basic human nature.

Everything I say to you is to support you. I can see and relate to your emotional pain. You love her and are willing to do almost anything to stabilize this relationship.

Your perspective that this is a relationship between you and her with some outside interference is not a realistic perspective. Your perspective that all of her actions are "BPD" related and can/should be compensated for is not a realistic perspective.

Your girlfriend is still deeply involved in her prior relationship. This is like a marital affair. The base partner (her prior/current boyfriend) provides A, and B to her. You provide C. C is very important, but a relationship with just C doesn't stand alone. This is why husbands in affairs don't leave their wife (when that is the case) and why she doesn't walk away from boyfriend 1.

This is the infamous 3 legged stool analogy - neither relationship stands on its own.



You know that he (boyfriend 1) has made demands on her and she has responded by picking fights with you to open the door to be intimate with him and/or block you from spending time in her real world. You have been down this path many times. He has a place in her real world - so she isolates you to cyber world - that's how she balances this. She doesn't want your paths to cross. She gets A and B from him. She gets C from you.

This stuff happens all the time on the internet.

If you accept this reality, everything that seem inexplicable will suddenly make sense.  Try it. Go back in your own mind and look at what has happened with this filter on.

It would break my heart to hear this if I were you and it is painful to be the one saying it, but when a girlfriend hasn't shed the prior relationship, courts both of you at the same time, has been intimate with boyfriend 1 well into your relationship, and consistently rejects or sabotages face-to-face time... .

She has an emotional and physical relationship with boyfriend 1 and says forgive her and trust her... .and you are saying "I'll try".  You had a brief cyber-relationship with another women, and this can never be forgiven and you can never be trusted... .and you are saying, "she is right".

[Meili]

There is a lot of focus in this thread (and most of the others in this series) about what your GF is or is not doing. I'm curious about what you are and are not doing in this situation.

She threatened to go sleep with her "friend" last night

What did YOU do/say in response to the threat?

[Oncebitten]

Skip,

thank you for your support, and thank you to everyone here.  I know that I have tested everyones patience.  This relationship has been the hardest thing in my life.  And I haven't led a sheltered life without its share of difficulty.  For whatever reason  (mostly likely my own issues) I have bonded to this woman beyond reason and logic.  

I know what you are telling me is true.  I agree that what I did (while immature) was not done maliciously.  I also agree that her standards are completely out of line.  Her thing has always been how long she has known him, and that she was upfront about her indiscretions. Honesty does not abslove her of maintaining at the least a emotional connection to this man.  She can blame me for this need all she likes.  She insisted on keeping him around long before I did anything wrong.  While I times I am elevated to the position of center of her universe, it is never permanent.  There is always him in the background.  She asked that long ago I cut ties with all the other women in my life, even ones who were platonic friends.  I obliged, I cut ties with the other woman as soon as we started talking to one another again.  The only thing I have ever asked of her was to remove him from her life... .She has always agreed then back tracked on it... .yes I am tired of being the 3rd leg or legs 2 & 3.  I want her and I to be in this together.  And yet she cant do this, there always has to be a backup.  I am sure that once I dont chase her r/s with him will falter.  I suppose she needs more love, support, and reassurance than 1 person can give her.   I tried, I truly did.  But I am tired if the constant threat of "there is man right up the road who loves me"... .
I love her, and I gave her every ounce of myself a man could give... .just wasnt enough.  So now begins the process of peicing me back together... .sigh, thats not going to be fun.0a

[Oncebitten]

Meili

I told her not too, I tried to get her to stay on the phone with me.  Tried to reason with her about what she was doing.  Reminded her of our plans for the future. Reminded her that this new post was not new, not new info anyways.  From what I got from her the OW didnt write anything new, really cant say as she wouldn't tell me where it was at, and I could not find it.  So I can only go off of her raging at me. 

I suppose I could have said you sleep with him we are over for good... .not sure that would have accomplished anything given her saying we are over for good.  I tried to call this morning and I am blocked... .really no way to talk to her at this point.  And maybe thats best... .not sure anything good would come from it.
Her core issue is that there are essentially other people who know her business.  And its embarrassing, its embarrassing to me as well... .but I cant control what this woman writes... .h*ll cant even address it bc I don't know where it is.

[Meili]

Let's stay focused on you for the moment and your response to her threat.

The threat was abusive, pure and simple. It was specifically designed to elicit a specific response and cause you emotional pain.

The question that you must ask yourself is why YOU ALLOWED yourself to stay in that painful situation?

I have written on these boards before about how I allowed myself to say in an abusive relationship because the immediate pain of the abuse was easier to handle than the fear of losing my pwBPD. That somehow, in my mind, that my stopping the abuse translated into my not being good enough. It was very twisted and unhealthy thinking. That was my reason for doing it, what's yours?

[Oncebitten]

thats exactly why I have stayed.  The abuse is far less painful than being cut off or out.  I know that she is bad for me.  But her yelling and name calling hurts less than not being with her.
Yes I know she said what she said to hurt me. She was hurt by what she read, she blames me for that pain, and therefore wants me to feel her pain.  She knows that his name causes me pain, and she uses it when all else fails.  It is abuse, the worst part is she abuses us (me and the OM) both  with her actions.  Her running to him every time she and I hit a rough spot hurts both men.  It hurts me and gives him hope which she takes away swiftly.  She claims to care about both of us... .but clearly its herself she cares about.  She keeps us both around in order to not have to be alone.

[Skip]

She insisted on keeping him around long before I did anything wrong.  While I times I am elevated to the position of center of her universe, it is never permanent.  There is always him in the background... .// ... .yes I am tired of being the 3rd leg or legs 2 & 3.

Once, it's a big step to see this as what is happening. There are hundreds of references like this on the Internet.

You’re dating an amazing new man. Trouble is this amazing new man already has a woman at home. That’s right; you’re dating a married man. Every couple of days I get an email from another woman telling me they’re dating a married man, or a man who has a long-term girlfriend, but it’s OK because, “He’s going to leave her.”

The cold hard reality to all this, is this man will NEVER be yours completely. If you’re having sex with a married man, or sleeping with a guy that has a girlfriend, sure he has feelings for you during the sex. Yes, he has feelings for you in the heat of the moment, but if he hasn’t left his wife, children, and home, he isn’t going to.

It doesn’t matter what he promises. I don’t care how many trips he takes you on, or rings that he buys you. It’s all talk. So many women fall for the fairytale idea that somehow he’s going to leave his family behind, and ride off into the sunset with you. He has a wife, he has children, and he has commitments. All that’s happening is he’s not getting what he needs at home, so you’re giving it to him instead. He spends time with you, and then goes home to play Daddy. He loves his kids. His wife isn’t giving him what he needs. He has the best of both worlds... .

It’s always the same promises, and these women are deep into this thing. Some emails have come from women who have been “involved” with these men for months, sometimes even years. He’s not going to leave his girlfriend. He’s not going to leave his wife.

I suppose she needs more love, support, and reassurance than 1 person can give her. But I am tired if the constant threat of "there is man right up the road who loves me"... .
I love her, and I gave her every ounce of myself a man could give... .just wasn't enough.

Once', its a lot more complicated than this. It will take a while to sort that out. When people start a relationship long distance (vs relationships that become long distance because of circumstances), there is a reason. Both you and her had a reason.

When a love triangle forms, there are also dynamics on all sides that accept it. We've talked a bit about her reason. There is your reason, too. You have known for some time and you have been far more connected to the fantasy than the reality. There is a reason. In time, you need to uncover this.

What can you do now to make this better? Realistically, very little. You can profess your love and take your punishment for being a "bad boy" and the relationship will swing to him until they hit another bump. You can walk away and she will possibly swing in your direction for a while until he pulls on her, and she shifts back. My point is that this is a tug-o-war with no win. Both men are unhappy with the triangle - but accept it. She sees both men as insufficient (a partial stool) and can may try to pick one, but the imbalance that started this will inevitably resurface.

The hard truth, and this is one learned by many women, is that when the wife (or girlfriend) on the other end of the triangle exits - often the affair partner (you) is dropped after the wife (or girlfriend) has been grieved. The center of the love triangle is more likely to seek a complete stool, because its more exciting and because it is hard to recruit men to be in a triangle.

In the stool analogy, there is no solution because each relationship is too weak to stand on its own.

[Oncebitten]

What do I do?   Walk away from the woman I love?  A woman I am certain loves me.  I agree with your earlier post, not all of this is related to BPD... I simply viewed the recent event her reading this post as a BPD issue.  Its as if all of this just happened.   None of what she told me or said to me was new.  All the things the ow wrote she is aware of, all the things she said to me are the same accusations, the same names... etc.   I am at a loss... .does she, did she really love me... .is forgiveness impossible?  I dont bring up what she did, and that man still exists in her life... .I am reminded of him frequently.  And yet I have forgiven and moved on.  

[Skip]

If you agree with me - do you see that these relationship (both men) can only fail. It's just a matter of time. This is a very common dynamic - it's more often married man and single women, but the dynamic is the same.

Do you accept that partial stool theory. Neither relationship can stand on its own. No matter how much she loves that leg (or two legs), she could be crazy about them, but no relationship can stand on two of three legs.

Go to the Detaching board and find our members who are in affairs and see how they reason about their wife and their affair partner. You can go there and see the other side of this. There are many cases where the wife or the affair partner left the triangle and the remaining relationship was abandoned for failed shortly there after.

That's exactly why I have stayed.  The abuse is far less painful than being cut off or out.

You could accept what she has been offering you... .to be a friend. Agree with her. Tell her she is right. Edit the pain. I would insist on an agreement that there will be no more talk about your relationship with her, or her relationship with him, or your relationship with others (re-establish your values and boundaries).

You have been trying to convince her to do something else, and you can get her to bit the bait, but you never catch the fish.

Frankly, this is also the best move to make to recover the relationship - but honestly -  you have to think really hard about the stool and whether you think you can beat the odds.

"Friend" is less painful than the drama of being cut off or out. It stops the fighting. It gives you space to sort through this and normalize your emotions. It also let's water rise to its level. It accepts the reality - it abandons the fantasy.

I know it will hurt - a lot - but it is a stepping stone to a more sane life rather than jumping off a cliff.

We all will walk with you on this. It certainly won't be the last chapter in this book.

[Oncebitten]

I really cant do anything, she still has my # blocked and I have no other way of reaching her, short of driving there.  And I am tired of driving just to get her in front of me so we can talk.  

Just got a text from her, essentially I am dead to her, and I should go back to the trash I associate with.  I really dont understand why its like it just happened.  This "r/s" with the ow was over 8 months ago... .I haven't had any contact with her in 5, and the last time I contacted her was to tell her to leave my gf alone bc she was posting stuff about her. I have proven time and time again that I have no desire to be in any contact with the OW... .is this just something she can never get past?

Perhaps my question should be "what is wrong with me?"   after everything she has said and done I still want her... .WHY?

[Oncebitten]

I realize that this probably qualifies as a rant at this point but writing the absurdity of it does make  me feel better and give some clairty.  In a 2.5 hr time span without speaking to one another, we went from being in love and planning a future to being over... .and nothing new was revealed.

Just sad really... .she left over something that happened over 8 months ago... .something that she knows about... .not a new revelation... .left over old news bc she was reminded of it

[Skip]

If a brick wall with faulty cement mortar topples when the wind picks up to 5 mph, was the cause of the collapse the wind?  Would stopping the wind that day, make it a better wall?  

[Oncebitten]

excellent point... .Can't fix what I didn't break

[Oncebitten]

Skip

I guess what really upsets me is the whole scenario... .I spent months trying to work through this with her... .I know you and others are aware of that.  And now its all come back to ruin US once again and I am not even privy to what was written.  
Its like being convicted of a crime and not being allowed to see the evidence.

I have often thought about writing her a letter... .an apology for what happened last summer and an expression of my feelings

[Meili]

I really cant do anything, she still has my # blocked and I have no other way of reaching her, short of driving there.  

hhmmm... .I don't know that I agree with this comment.

First, there is a lot you can do. First and foremost, you can stop playing her game and stop allowing yourself to be abused. Define and maintain your boundaries.

You can mail her a letter saying that you agree with her that a lot of damage has been done and that the friendship part seems to work so the two of you should focus on that and let things play out as they will. Don't make it anything romantic. Don't send a card that is to elicit emotions.

No, I think that there are things that you can do if you choose to do them.

[Meili]

I have often thought about writing her a letter... .an apology for what happened last summer and an expression of my feelings

You've already apologized to her, haven't you? You've already told her exactly how you feel too, right?

Those things have not worked. There is no reason to keep doing them. If you want different results, you have to do things differently.

[Skip]

I have often thought about writing her a letter... .an apology for what happened last summer and an expression of my feelings

You made the point earlier that she started a fight over something silly and she slept with the other guy as revenge. Don't buy this. The most likely the reality is that she wanted to sleep with the other guy, and created the conflict to justify it in her own mind. Not accusing her of anything other than wanting the other guy and using dysfunctional coping skills. The point here is that the "something silly" was subterfuge.

My point - the love triangle (the defective mortar) is the issue - not what the girl said (the wind). Most likely that is what is going on here. The tug-o-war has shifted, once again, to the two legged stool.

You buying into these "something silly" arguments and apologizing and telling her how much you love her makes you look weak and of little value. Why? Because it looks like you have little value for yourself.

When you bought into the idea that your cyber affair during a breakup was worse than her sexual indiscretion during the relationship, you undermined yourself. Why? Because it looks like you have little value for yourself.

So sending her a self deprecating love note is only going to make matters worse for you - invite more  disrespectful behavior. Rule 1. Don't blame anyone for not respecting you, if you don't respect yourself.

You can mail her a letter saying that you agree with her that a lot of damage has been done and that the friendship part seems to work so the two of you should focus on that and let things play out as they will. Don't make it anything romantic. Don't send a card that is to elicit emotions.

Meili is right. Man up. Don't cower. Don't pout. Don't beg. Don't blow things up. Don't use bravado. Just be strong and confident.

Strength is something you need to see in yourself. It would be good for her to see it too.

Right now strength is not to be blown away by her subterfuge. Strength is to do what a strong man does when a women rejects him repeatedly. Back away with confidence.

OK. You said we should be friends. I respect that.But know that I will always love and cherish you, even though you are telling me the other guy is a better man, and I will be happy with whatever mood you are in that day. Love   Oncebitten

[Meili]

Many times in the past, OB, you've written about how much she likes it when you show strength. That falls in line with what Skip said.

What you wrote here is the opposite of that:

I told her not too, I tried to get her to stay on the phone with me.  Tried to reason with her about what she was doing.  Reminded her of our plans for the future. Reminded her that this new post was not new, not new info anyways. 

[Oncebitten]

Meili

I agree, being weak accomplishes nothing.  I know you have been here with me almost since the day I showed up here.  I think you would agree that I have done everything BUT show that strength by stepping back from her.  She has grown entirely to comfortable with raging at me, blocking me, saying hateful things, making threats of all sorts... and still have me chase after her.


She actually text me a little bit ago some nonsense about changing her #... .I told her if she had something to say she could call.  She did, and we talked briefly... .she was angry at first but much softer not more than 3 mins later.  So she has taken the block off already... .

I assume you advise I just leave her be until she reaches out ?

[Meili]

I assume you advise I just leave her be until she reaches out ?

Well, yeah. 

Seriously though, OB, she has told you and you have seen from her actions that being strong works. As you know, you have to be the emotionally strong one in all of this. Go back and re-read What Does it Take to Be in a Relationship. Give serious consideration to the part that says:

• Maintaining routine and structure
• Setting and maintain boundaries
• Being empathetic, building trust, even in difficult times
• Don’t tolerate abusive treatment, threats and ultimatums
• In crisis, stay calm, don’t get defensive, don't take it personally
• Don’t protect them from natural consequences of their actions - let them fail

You've done the opposite of those things over and over and achieved the same results each time. I'm not trying to criticize how you've been trying to do things. I'm trying to help you see a different way and support you.

It appears that you gather some strength, you take a step or two back, she comes to you and idealizes you, and you cave... .going right back to prior behaviors.

I know what that's like. I've lived it. I would cower down before my x and grovel at her feet in hopes of showing her how much I loved her. "The more you suffer, the more it shows you really care" was the way that I looked at things. I couldn't have been more wrong.

All that I showed her was that she didn't have to respect me because I didn't respect myself.

[Oncebitten]

Don’t protect them from natural consequences of their actions - let them fail

yeah haven't done that at all... .its tough bc she always makes me feel like if I don't try then she is out the door... .I guess she gets something out of me chasing after her.  

Don't let her know I am hurting?

Last question... .what do I do about this OW nonsense? 

Counter intuitive I guess... .walk away and hope she follows

[Oncebitten]

Ended up talking last night and she made me aware of the post that was upsetting her.   I validated her feelings after I read it which helped greatly.  She still wants me to address it... .I told her I would.

[heartandwhole]

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