She crossed a line... sent more money to her family

[formflier]

Over the years she has unilaterally taken between $35k and $40k and sent it to her family... .in one form or another.

It's been a while.  I just discovered that she sent about $400 to her father yesterday.  Leaving our joint account for paying bills... .with 15 cents.  And bills to pay.

Very troubled... .trying to be wise.

Thoughts?

FF

[sweetheart]

ff if I remember rightly from before you don't use certain accounts for bills and another for spending etc?

Is it possible there was some kind of emergency with her father, as you say it's been a while and her relationship with her family is a complicated one?

I would want to know what the back story is here, your wife earns her own money, I don't tell my husband what I do with my money, how I choose to spend it etc but I wouldn't leave us short for bills either.

My starting point would be to find out why, was it emergency, did she forget about the bills, is everything ok with her dad.

[Fian]

Is there any flexibility in sending money to her family?  If she knows that the answer is always no, then it is not surprising that she went behind your back.  It is a hard place to be where your choices are disappointing your family or disappointing your spouse.  I understand your frustration in this, but she is probably in a no win situation as well.

[formflier]

Is there any flexibility in sending money to her family?  If she knows that the answer is always no, then it is not surprising that she went behind your back.  It is a hard place to be where your choices are disappointing your family or disappointing your spouse.  I understand your frustration in this, but she is probably in a no win situation as well.

We have sent several hundred dollars to her family over the past 6 months to a year for various things... .pay half for a mower that our son ran over... .etc etc.

All by mutual agreement... .before the money was sent...   All  This was clear agreement made in Biblical counseling to reconcile prior financial misdeeds.

The reason (likely) that she didn't ask is that she understands I would have said no or asked some uncomfortable questions. 

Apparently there has been further mismanagement (by her father) of funds at a rental property (1 property jointly owned by her father and I).  Rather than ask him to cover it from his personal funds... .or ask me ahead of time... .she decided by herself.  Same pattern as before.

The earlier funds were sent when the father and brother decided they needed "early profit" from the property... .instead of waiting for it to be sold. 

Yep... .you understand right... .they wanted a "share" of profit from a potential future sale... .so... my wife stroked the check.

About zero chance there is a legitimate emergency... .

FF

[formflier]

After a quick chat on the phone with my P... .

I've prepped the following draft.


FF wife,

Please put the money (approximately $350) taken from our joint account, back in our joint account.  This money was taken without my consent and without regard to our prior agreements about sending money from our joint account to your family.

In addition, please forward this email to your mentor and ask for guidance on this matter.

Love,

FF

[sweetheart]

How about 'without mutual/joint consent' rather than 'my consent'?

[formflier]

My wife has her own account where about $45k per year from me is deposited.  All of her salary from teaching is deposited there.  She makes her decisions from this account.  I have no oversight at all.  Purposeful decision by me... .couple years ago.

Anyway... she buys food and clothes... .and pays life insurance from this account.

There is a joint account, that I manage and she rarely uses, where rental money and my disability is deposited.  

Mortgages, light bills, household expenses, medical... .etc etc are paid from there.  I have purposefully kept little money in this account... .because of the possibility of things like this.  

I found out today because when I went to pay at doctors office... .the debit card "bounced".  There was 15 cents left in the account.  

I have my own account where I have some savings.

All of the above is fluff.

We have an agreement that joint money is joint decisions... .and have held to that for about a year...

FF

[formflier]

How about 'without mutual/joint consent' rather than 'my consent'?

That is perfect!  Thanks!

[formflier]

FF wife,

Please put the money (approximately $350) taken from our joint account, back in our joint account.  This money was taken without mutual agreement and without regard to our prior agreements about sending money from our joint account to your family.

In addition, please forward this email to your mentor and ask for guidance on this matter.

After the above steps are taken, I believe we should attempt to find a mutually acceptable way forward.

Love,

FF

(Is there a better way to say "without regard"... .the meaning is "in violation of"... .but that is likely too strong language... .

[sweetheart]

'and no consideration for our prior agreements'

[formflier]

What I sent.  Talked with P on phone.  Then some texts.

She said send it first.  Then stick to message... .don't get distracted by other arguments.  Stay simple.  Let her work her way out of an undefendable position... .or... .she will stay there.

But... .my job is to be succinct... .and not give her ammo... .

Thanks for the help on this.

What is sent is below.

FF wife,

Please put the money (approximately $350) taken from our joint account, back in our joint account.  This money was taken without mutual consent and no apparent regard to our prior agreements. 

In addition, please forward this email to your mentor and ask for guidance on this matter.

Then we should seek a mutually acceptable way forward.

Love,

FF

[empath]

FF, sorry that the financial issues came up again. I'm dealing with that area with my h, too.

It sounds like a 'broken record' technique -- bringing it back to the same point again and again.

[love4meNOTu]

Formflier...

Said somewhat tongue in cheek... .

Is this payback for the mop?

[formflier]

Formflier...

Said somewhat tongue in cheek... .

Is this payback for the mop?

  ... .I laughed outloud at this... .thanks! 

Her responses are below... .I could use some help "interpreting"

FF

[formflier]

Her first email to me

Sure thing sweetheart, then please make sure that $500 gets put in the (name of bank) account tomorrow. My parents name is on that loan. Just as we make our rent payment for (address) from our joint account each month on time so that your parents credit will not be damaged by a late payment (their name is on that loan) we also need to make sure my parents credit is not damaged by a late payment as well.  What is the plan for putting money in the (name of bank) account? Why not pay it from our joint account the same as we pay the loan your parents name is on?  In your email about the house in (name of state) you asked if my dad or I had already contacted the renter... .if it's OK to do that without your permission why can I not draw money from our JOINT account and move it to the suntrust account as needed? Love, FF wife

Then another one fairly quickly

I would also like to know why it is OK for you to transfer large sums of money from our joint account without speaking to me ($600 to cover (address of house) but it is not OK for me to do the same to for the house in (initials of state)? Why do we have two separate accounts and a joint account? We agreed in counseling to have only one joint account and no others. (my wife uses her initial here, vice her entire name)

My response

I appreciate the response.  I will be ready to discuss a way forward after the money is returned and you have sought out guidance from your mentor.

Please forward all of these emails to your mentor for accurate guidance.

Love

I'm going to leave out any explanation... .because even with my knowledge... .I'm not following some of her "reasoning".

Anyone want to try and interpret?

FF

[love4meNOTu]

So in an attempt to not JADE, you stuck to your initial request, basically repeated your first email.

I use this technique as well, but SETcould apply here.

I can appreciate your need to help your parents.

It must be tough to be in the middle of their financial issues.

I feel our family comes first before our parents, and the account now has no funds in it to pay our bills.

Good luck ff... keep fighting the good fight

[empath]

She says, "not fair". You can, why can't I?

Is she trying to compare paying rent (to your dad) with giving her parents money?

[Grey Kitty]

Q: I really don't understand your wife's point in the other emails... .and I don't want to... .just be clear--is there something valid in there that you need to respond to or not? (I'm assuming not so much, or at least not something related to the money she sent to her family from the joint account which you objected to.)

If there is something valid about those amounts she mentions, you should probably address it.

Otherwise, I'm seeing two things here:

1. You made an agreement with her about use of the joint account, and she decided that she didn't need to follow the agreement, and you are calling her on it. She's not happy, and she's trying to throw some other !@#$ on the wall to obscure the issue. (And I remember a long and unsatisfactory history of how agreements work out with your wife)

2. She's upset and nearly dysregulated; any idea what is really going on with her, and are there some other feelings/issues you might want to validate?

[formflier]

I don't think there is anything valid there.

I thought there might be over the $600 issue.  She obviously saw something... .and then assumed a lot.

What she saw (cut and past from online)

WAY2SAVE CHECKING BILLS MINUS MORTGAGE FOR (address of house)   $600.00   

What this means... .$600 was transferred from our "deposit" account to our "billpay" account to cover the bills "except for" the mortgage for (I had note about address for that house).  The renter for the house in question hasn't paid yet, so there is no cash sitting there to pay it.  So... .I paid the other periodic bills that we pay via billpay... .and left out the mortgage.  I put the note in there to remind me... .

I also sent her a quick email after doing this letting her know the rent for this... .and one other property was missing... .(the one property has paid on time for over 4 years... .so it was unusual to not have that money).  :)etails:  This means one deposit of $1048 and another deposit of $1200 that we were counting on... .were missing.  

Important info for my wife to know and be aware of... .since these properties are in her name and funds are joint.

No... .turn on her "BPD blender"... .and this is what you get... .

I would also like to know why it is OK for you to transfer large sums of money from our joint account without speaking to me ($600 to cover (address of house) but it is not OK for me to do the same to for the house in (initials of state)?

I'm not sure how to "effectively" tell a pwBPD that my reason is:  Because I do it every month and have done so for past year or two... .since you told me you would not manage money any more.

History:  She demanded to "run finances"... .alleged she would find all the hidden money.  I said ok... . Honestly... .she did an acceptable job.  In my opinion, she figured out it was a pain in the a$$... .there is no hidden money... .and she wanted to do something else... .

Big picture:  We have an account number that is given out fairly liberally to renters.  I hate "the check is in the mail"... .so I have people stop by the bank and deposit their rent there.  They text or email me... .I confirm the deposit... .and promptly move the money to a different account.

That way... .large sums aren't sitting there... .to be taken... .if someone wants to exploit those bank account numbers.

That part of the way we run our real estate business... .has been going on for 10-15 years.  Well before she started dysregulating.

I know that is likely TMI for most of you... .but above is the info I have in my head when I decide to NOT answer the email.

Plus... .I want to stick closely to my earlier emails.  I'll discuss it further when money is back and she has sought guidance from her mentor.

In the back of my mind... .I'm obviously considering what to do if she doesn't.  My current plan is to say nothing to her... .and do some sort of boundary enforcement... .by enacting further steps of some sort for her to get to funds.

Sigh...

FF

[formflier]

Stuff that I am aware is going on... .any one of which could dysregulate her... .

Father appears to be living back her again full time with her mother... .he had been living with my wife's older sister.

Apparently older sister is getting a divorce... again... .  To my knowledge this is third divorce... .I say it that way because the "fact" that she is/was married to this guy is touchy subject.  He was the affair partner that broke up marriage number 2.  It was never "publicly acknowledged" that they were married. 

She has been offered a promotion at work... .appears to be taking it.

I bought a mop appropriate for laminate flooring and appropriate spray cleaner.  Floors have never looked better... .

(I don't think I posted about this one... )  She threw a broom across the kitchen (I don't believe at me)... .it hit a wall and landed on me.  I asked her to be more careful as the mop landed on me.  She started screaming "liar" over and over... .  I walked out of house.  Incident has not been spoken of since.

It's been about a week since she slept in bed with me.  I've not mentioned it... .

Couple kids have gotten some bad grades... .a bit iffy if they are on the path to fix them.

Some letters have been sent regarding the every two year inspection of the rental property (Section 8 thing) that I own with my father in law.  Apparently he has done nothing... .nor let me know about the letters.  Yesterday and today several letters have showed up at my house... .several a month old... .those letters reference non response to previous letters of a month prior to that... .   sigh.

I could go on... .

FF

[Grey Kitty]

Hmmmm... .

Are you funding the joint account, or is she funding the joint account?

Honestly having $350 disappear from it is disturbing, but seems like small change compared to past offenses. (You said $35~40k)

Hows about standing firm on this... .to a point.

And if it doesn't work, decide whether this is big enough to take harder steps, or small enough to ignore and move on.

The bigger step would be to inform her that the two of you seem incapable of managing a joint account together because you cannot agree with her on how to spend money from it. (Clearly avoiding whether you or she is right; that doesn't matter.) And consequently, you won't be using joint accounts with her anymore.

You will probably have to split joint real estate you manage into yours and hers somehow to manage this.

[formflier]

The only thing that she funds is her personal account.  That comes from her working and earning W-2 income.

In a way... .she does fund some of the joint account... .because rent (and some owner held mortgages... .but basically a monthly house income payment) show up.

Over the years she has done quite a bit of work on those properties... .but... .in typical BPD style tossed up her hands a year or two ago and basically said... .I'm not doing it anymore.  They are YOUR properties and YOUR problem.

Sigh...

For that joint account... .I fund around 2/3rds (a bit less... .2/3rds is close enough) that come from sources of money that I control and are in my name.

Anyway... .when we "reconciled" our differences over previous money issues... .the agreement was NEVER   AGAIN will money be taken without mutual agreement and sent to her family.  Never.

I believe I have previously mentioned some money has moved that way by mutual agreement... .so... .for a while... .the agreement was working.

Yeah... .my wife and agreements... .I know... .

I believe the thought of "obviously we can't do joint accounts anymore"... .is likely the healthiest way to go.

Avoiding any talk to right and wrong and agreements.


Any agreement would likely have to be transactional or short term.  Such as... .sure honey... .here is $500 for xyz.  If xyz doesn't show up... .I stop discussing money until it does... .

FF 

[Notwendy]

I agree with addressing the breach of trust with money - but also that you reconcile it with taking it back from the 45K you deposit for expenses.

Is there a way to set up a spending allowance for the two of you- where each of you can do whatever you want with the money without asking the other? This can be depending on budget- but I do think some self determination with money for each person is a good thing.

You may not understand why she does this or approve of it. My H and his siblings paid for something for his parents- while they sat on a pile of savings in their bank. This made no sense to me. We are looking at college expenses, and this wasn't something his parents could not afford. But it was emotional for the children- to do this. So, I didn't intervene so long as we could still have what we needed for expenses.

I don't know why your wife does this, but it is hard to have complete control over this- she is going to do it. Is there some way to budget for personal expenses and also take control over the joint account- maybe she just has access to her own?

[formflier]

Notwendy,

My wife is completely "sovereign" over about $40-45k per year that is deposited into her account from some of my income.  Basically one of my income sources gets direct deposited there.  That is more than she makes as a teacher.  She deposits all of teacher money in her account as well.

I have no password or access to that account or money... .no spending card.

Be mutual agreement she handles "the majority" of clothes shopping, grocery shopping and she pays a monthly life insurance bill from there.  Also by practice, but not agreement, she puts her own gas in cars.

After she emptied the joint account, I know there was money left in her account because of purchases made on Amazon.  The card to her account was charged... .and went through.  The card for the joint account "declined".

It appears purposeful and willful that the money to her parents "come from me".  Same pattern as before.  Not just that her parents needed money... .she could have solved that without me knowing.

Furthermore... her parents made a choice to not collect rent they were owed... .nor let anyone know they needed help.  This is typical behavior in her family.  Somehow they have determined it's not their responsibility.



FF

[formflier]

So... .she texted me that she would put the money back yesterday.  She didn't.

Then she texted me today that she had deposited the money back.  She put $300 in via electronic check deposit.

Then... she texts me that she realizes that it was $350... .and she will deposit another $50 after work.

I thanked her for letting me know.

Sigh.

FF

[iceonthehorizon]

Reading through your problem I can see why you would be frustrated but then I don't have that much sympathy in this instance. She is taking advantage of you and you know that really. You are enabling her actions because you are afraid of the consequences of properly standing up to her and dealing with the issue at hand.

I know first hand what it is like to have a partner trying  to take advantage of your financial circumstances however understand it will never change while you continue to act the way you do.

I've seen this time and again where the partner earning so much more than the other bends over backwards to try and appease the lower earning pwBPD just to keep the peace.

If you cant accept this is the situation you are in and that it is NEVER going to change to something you feel safe and is fair in your opinion then prepare for more suffering in the future. Your BPD partner will always bend the rules to be advantageous for her. So you choose to be with her, now this is what being with her entails.

Don't want to come across harsh but people being nice about your situation might make you feel temporarily better but the underlying problem is still there and I suspect it will not be resolved till you grow a set of balls and start caring about yourself, even if that meant leaving your partner.

Yes we all have suffered at the hands of a person with BPD but there comes a point where your actions are what continues that suffering. You will ALWAYS have money issues with your partner, it's just how you partner is wired in the head you cannot change that.

[formflier]

Direct deposit has been changed.  Doubtful it will take effect for March 1st. 

FF