Dbpdw wanting our kids to walk on eggshells…

[thankful person]

Our eldest child is D6, she is too mature for her age and definitely parentified. My dbpdw (Mummy) has recently been more dysregulated due to pressures of studying and having new friendships. D6 and D4 generally understand that Mummy doesn’t like to not be involved so she doesn’t want them telling me or showing me things when she’s not around. (It’s more often that she’s not around as I’m working less to care for the kids when she’s at college).

There have been a few incidents recently but this was the worst. D6 told me excitedly one morning, “My friend drew me a picture, can I show you?” I said, “yes but do you think we should wait until Mummy gets up?” (She was still in bed, I get the kids ready every morning). D6 said, “I’ll show Mummy when she comes down..” And I thought, ok on a good day dbpdw might be fine with that but we’ll see.

Dbpdw was very angry (upset) that D6 had shown me the picture before her. She screamed at D6 making her cry. I stood up for the child, saying it wasn’t fair to  treat her that way as we both thought it would be ok. My wife then turned on me as to why I didn’t say anything to D6 about how Mummy would feel. I said that I had told D6, but we both thought Mummy would be ok with this. D6 then lied to Mummy saying that she didn’t understand what I had meant. I am fully ashamed to say I then lost it and shouted at D6, “How dare you lie?” making her cry again. I apologised to D6, saying, “I’m sorry Mummy isn’t ok with many things most people would be ok with”. My wife was seriously triggered by this (as I wanted her to be in that moment), screaming at me to “get out!” Just as I thought I might arrive at work at a good time she challenged me to make up with her before leaving by saying I shouldn’t leave after an argument etc, which is a nice idea but we’ve never done that in our marriage before. Anyway we had a normal conversation and she agreed that certain things upset her that wouldn’t upset most people but that’s ok she’s just different but we should still all think about her feelings etc. and try not to upset her.

I feel terrible at how I reacted towards D6. In future I will be wary of this and do better to understand the child lied about me because she was scared of Mummy. But my question is.. do I encourage them to “walk on eggshells” to some extent… because they can start to understand somewhat that their mother is mentally ill and needs special consideration? I know that walking on eggshells is not encouraged. But when parenting, surely it’s better to face this situation by saying, “Your mother is not normal” rather than pretending she is? I found it interesting that my wife even is on board with this to some extent, she denies still having bpd symptoms, but knows she is “not like other people”.

That afternoon I asked D6 how her school day was and she told me, “I forgot to tell Mummy so I better not tell you, I don’t want Mummy to get angry again”. I let this go, but again, what would the advised response be?

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[CC43]

Hi Thankful,

OK, I know that living with someone with BPD means walking on eggshells all the time, but my opinion is that the scenario you describe is absolutely over the top.  Basically your wife got upset because of the timing when your daughter shared something that she was excited about.  Good grief.  From my perspective, the only thing that matters is that your young daughter wanted to share something she liked with BOTH her parents, and she did just that, at the first opportunity with each parent.  Whether your daughter shared her excitement with one parent "first" and the other parent "second" shouldn't matter one bit.  Yet with BPD, your wife not only felt slighted, but she lashed out at her own kid and made her cry over utter nonsense.  That must be terribly confusing.

What your spouse is demanding is for her kids to show remarkable restraint and maturity, always to consider Mum's possible feelings and reactions ahead of their own, even if it means quashing a kid's natural enthusiasm and closeness with the other parent, even if it means that the kids feel they always have to patiently wait and defer to someone else.  Not only that, she expects her kids to be mind readers.  I think this is utterly backwards--the mom should put the kids' emotional needs ahead of her own, especially at such a young age.  To throw a fit because she didn't see a picture first is so inappropriate it's actually making me angry.  If she's throwing a fit over something so inconsequential, I can only imagine her reaction to things that are actually important.

Now, it may be that your spouse is stressed out over the extra work of college.  She may start to resent you for growing closer with the children.  Maybe she feels "displaced" or "demoted" in status vis-a-vis the kids, rather than to be thankful that the kids have a loving relationship with BOTH parents.  If these are issues, then I understand that, and she may need some extra counseling and support to deal with these changes.  She may also need constant reassurance as she's working towards her goal of finishing her education.  But to lash out at her family because she got to see a picture as soon as she got out of bed--that's out of line.  I'd say it's her fault for staying in bed so late!  My guess is that she should really be getting up when everyone else in the household is up.  I bet she's complaining all the time about how tired she is, even though the adults around her are putting in more hours working and caregiving!  On top of that, your spouse probably expects her kid to be in school full-time (kindergarten or first grade), which means getting up early in the morning--and yet your spouse can't be expected to follow the same schedule?  She's demanding "perfect performance" from her young child, while needing extra downtime for herself?  If that's the case (which sounds typical of pwBPD), then I guess I'd say that a full courseload is probably too much for your spouse right now.  If I were in your shoes, I'd recommend a lighter courseload until she proves she can handle it.  In my opinion, "handling it" includes staying on a schedule that is healthy for her own children, and that means getting up with them on schooldays.

As for handling your dear daughter's questions, I guess my response would be, Yes darling, I'd love to hear what happened in school today.   [If Mum seems angry, I promise that she's not angry with you.  Let me worry about that.]

Just my two cents.

[thankful person]

Hi CC43,

Thanks for the validation and very perceptive response. Yes her behaviour makes me incredibly angry but you know how it is, anger is never going to be a productive response with a pwbpd. Don’t get me started! Despite my own dysregulation towards D6 that horrible day, at least I can be proud that I do stand up for the kids at times like these. We have four kids and the youngest is nearly 1 year old. Because my wife has co-slept and breast fed them all, she uses that excuse why she needs to sleep later in the morning. You are right, I get them all up and ready in the morning, nappies/toilets, dressed, breakfast, hair, teeth, shoes, I also get their school bags and water ready etc.Tbh I like getting them ready cos she’s not there to stress me out hahaha. She also has a dog boarding business which I do most of the care and she just meets the owners and sends them selfies with the dogs I look after for her. The annoying thing in the morning is if she comes downstairs and I forget to say good morning beautiful or something and talk about the kids or work or something else then sometimes she flips out over that. So atm I work two days and she does college two days. She seems to be doing ok but needs lots of help academically as she has dyslexia and her education was poor. She has already gone from splitting her amazing new friends from white to black which is almost funny as it’s so predictable and I’m just like, yeahhhh… and do you notice who’s actually still here for you? As always? Yes that would be me. I will take on board what you said about the situation and I think if such a thing happens again I can kindly remind the kids, Mummy wouldn’t like that (as in, we need to remember Mummy is not normal and as they grow up they will learn what mental instability is…) I hope I can support them through all this, I know their mother’s behaviour will affect them but the last thing I definitely don’t want is for them to end up as adults with controlling and disordered partners.

[mitochondrium]

Hi, thankfull person,

I am sorry to read about your problems. However I strongly feel it is not good for the kids to always have to take their  morher into consideration. They are too young to understand that and they should not be forced to be caretakers. I think this could scare them for the rest of their lifes and force them to be cartalers of fillings of others and rob them of asertivness and being able to voice their needs and wants. I think it is time for  a boundary! From what you wrote I get a feeling you are afraid of your wife (which I get, dont get me wrong), but I think this will be damaging for the kids.
I grew up with a father who  demanded walking on eggshels (however not for such small things as you describe) which was also suggested by my mother as it was the easiest way to get by with less arguing and fits. I am in my thirties now and I still have a lot of problems with being assertive, comunicate normally, outing my feelings. I find this is a huge dissadvantage for me, not only in communication itself, bit also in stress levels I encounter because of it.

[thankful person]

Hi mitochondrium,
I really appreciate your perspective, thank you. I’ve been in bpd fam nearly 5 years now and I’ve read all the books… made lots of progress. But yes. I’m still scared of my wife. And she is still in control. It has definitely made things more complicated with having kids (not that I learnt about boundaries before having kid, but it’s easier when it’s just my battle to fight…) I am now comfortable with my wife being angry or upset or whatever, I mean, I’m happy to head off to work and spend the day without her and don’t worry about how she’ll be, like I used to be upset all day if she was angry…I also get a lot of validation at work as they know exactly what she’s like. But I feel like the mission with the kids is harder because it’s nicer for everyone (and feels more healthy) if my wife stays calm. So when D6 got the picture out of her bag… I gently reminded her “Mummy might not like you to do that without her”. She obviously didn’t realise how angry Mummy would be whereas I knew she might be fine or very angry. But my question for you is.. what am I to do next time I feel I should warm the kids in order to avoid my wife’s anger. I know I am to positively support them and could have said nothing except joined D6’s excitement about her friend giving her a picture. Ok if something similar were to happen again and my wife is downstairs and screeching at D6 and also me about what a terrible thing we have done here… Please tell me how best to respond next time. I will never rest, I know there is always work to be done… I want to be a better parent despite these ridiculous challenges.

[thankful person]

I think I am going to have to deal with something in a couple of hours so probably before I get any more feedback, but I’ll do my best! So D4 has only spent a couple more nights back in her own bed after a long stint in Mummy’s bed which is actually our marital bed but the single spare bed is currently fine by me! The first night back in her bed, D4 woke up scared and I heard her crying and went to her and took her back to mummy’s bed which is the “correct” procedure in our house. Last night, D4 woke in the night and came in to the spare room to see me. She didn’t seem scared, but she knows Mummy would want her to go to her and not me. I asked D4 if she wanted to go to Mummy’s bed and she said no. I took her back to her own bed and tucked her back in and left her to go back to sleep. I did not wake my wife. I did not even text my wife. So I will have “done wrong” in her eyes. If D4 does not mention any of this then Mummy may not find out any of this happened, though dbpdw is a light sleeper and she would normally text me, “what’s going on!” If she heard anything. But I wonder if D4 will tell Mummy about it… to get me in trouble? Create some drama? D4 is a bright little rebel full of love, nothing like D6 who is also full of love but more serious and always wanting to follow the rules and please everyone. I love that D4 came to me in the night and I think I did a “normal” thing which was to ask if she wanted to go to mummy’s bed (as that’s the norm for her), give her a cuddle and take her back to her own bed without disturbing mummy. But I guess in a “normal” marriage this info would get passed to the other parent tomorrow morning whereas I intend to “forget” unless D4 mentions it or Mummy somehow knows it happened. I’d appreciate anyone’s thoughts, thank you!

[thankful person]

Just thought also, knowing what children are like with their night habits… this may not have been a one off! So if she does the exact same thing tonight… do I do the exact same thing and still not go out of my way to tell my wife?

[CC43]

Hi Thankful,

From your post I can see you are a loving, deeply caring and considerate person.  I know you want what's best for your family, and you are struggling to minimize outbursts from your loved one with BPD.  I think everyone here who lives with someone with BPD (or BPD traits) struggles with "walking on eggshells," trying to prevent or minimize outbursts.  Oftentimes we need to "pick our battles," which sometimes means doing things that are expedient rather than ideal.  It must be extremely hard for you to juggle and balance the needs of young children, while at the same time catering to the needs of your spouse.

I think you have a good read on what seems to be happening with your oldest.  You yourself said she's being parentified.  That would mean that she's expected to take on things which are well beyond her maturity level.  Parentification could mean that she's doing household tasks, such as helping younger siblings dress or eat, cleaning the home or folding laundry.  Now there's nothing wrong with being assigned chores--I'm a big believer in chores building competency, responsibility and togetherness--but they should be age-appropriate and not be so physically or emotionally burdensome that the child doesn't have time to play or feel free to be a normal, care-free kid.  By the same token, parentification can be the emotional kind, too.  That's when adults unload their emotional baggage onto their kids and expect them to listen to it, empathize, and oftentimes feel responsible!  I think topics like marital stress, fighting, financial stress, paying bills, mom's worries about school, etc. should not be something a six-year-old has to listen to, let alone worry about.  Worse, having to worry about how Mum might react to completely mundane things such as seeing a picture or who comforts her or tucks her in at night should not be a child's concern in my opinion.  I'm not saying that kids shouldn't learn to take other people's feelings into consideration--they need strong rules and firm boundaries, such as "We don't hit or bite people in this family, it's not nice."  But the rules need to be reasonable and age-appropriate.  What it sounds like you're trying to do is expect your dear daughter to walk on eggshells full-time and never be allowed to do anything without obtaining the express prior approval of her Mum first, lest her Mum have a hissy fit over every miniscule detail of her life.  I see this as parentification because the six-year-old is expected to be more mature than her own mother, and the six-year-old feels responsible for her mother's emotional well-being!  That is backwards in my humble opinion.

To date, maybe your approach has been to do everything in your power to reduce stress for your wife, in the hopes that she avoids a meltdown.  It sounds like you've been doing an awful lot, from handling your wife's business to doing more than your fair share of childcare.  Maybe bending over backwards has bought you some temporary peace in the household, which is good for the kids.  But if I were in your shoes, I think I would focus on trying to change the environment and your wife's routine, rather than expect your children to change their behavior to accommodate your wife.

The way I see things, handling the household might feel a little easier if you think in terms of stress management.  I've observed that pwBPD do not handle stress very well.  They need a lot of logistical support, reassurance and downtime.  I think that's why many people with untreated BPD have difficulties holding down a job.  Now I know there are other variables with BPD, such as emotional dysregulation, unrealistic expectations, feelings of emptiness, unstable self-image, etc., and you can't be expected to deal with those issues yourself.  But I think what you might try is to create a realistic and stable household routine, together with your spouse, that is designed to reduce stress for everyone.  In my humble opinion, having a strong routine increases predictability, and that alone reduces stress!  You might say, Look, I'm feeling stressed out, and I think you are too.  I feel like we have so much going on that we're tired and fighting a lot, we're arguing over wake times and night routines.  I think we need to re-assess and maybe cut back on non-essential obligations right now . . . and then we'll have more time to be happy together as a family.

Again, from what you've written, it sounds to me like pursuing a degree is just too much for your spouse right now.  My suggestion would be to take BABY STEPS towards getting a degree.  Maybe next semester she could try just one course.  That way, she probably wouldn't struggle as much academically.  She would be able to stay awake whenever the kids are awake, and she'd be prepared to get up at night to attend to a fussy child, if she thinks it's critical that she (and not you) take on that responsibility.  Once she demonstrates that she can handle one course, as well as her primary obligations to her family, she might be ready to add another course.  But it seems unfair to the family that because she's studying at school, she's too tired to wake up on time in the morning, she expects her spouse to do more than her fair share around the house, and she expects her children to wait for her and defer to her on everything, even when she's in bed.  That isn't balanced in my opinion.  Rather, that sounds to me like she's another kid in the family.  In a way, her behavior is childish.  I guess that's why I'm saying you need to take back some control and enforce a healthy household routine, for everyone's sake.  If your wife is peeved she's not consulted enough regarding the children, then she ought to be participating fully in the getting-up, dinnertime and bedtime routines.  If she's not participating fully, then she needs to delegate it to you (if you choose that) and not beat you up about it.

[ForeverDad]

I recall a time not long before our eventual blowout when my spouse briefly went to another city for some certification, life was calm and I and my preschooler relaxed.  It was so peaceful.

Then I called the police one weekend when my spouse was on a rampage...

It makes me sad to say it, really sad but I usually have the most relief and feel the most relaxed when my wife is gone, especially when she goes to visit family or girlfriends and is gone for a few days or a week.

Even my son, a preschooler at the time when we first separated in 2005, noticed.  When I felt I ought to be "fair" - Warning, Will Robinson! - and mention her, he redirected me back to the chocolate chip cookie batter we were mixing.

I too recall when my spouse was gone.  I recall writing here that the silence was deafening.

My point is that with you bringing up your child's all-consuming parent to appease your spouse, you're reinforcing a problematic issue in your lives.  You don't have to mention her mother so much.  Just be a parent, comfort your child, soothe whatever awoke her and then just take her back to her bed and let her fall asleep.

In the final months of our marriage my ex stopped sleeping in our bed and started co-sleeping in our son's bed and locking the door too.  It was yet another sign things were getting intolerable.