SO's (uBPD) D19 is moving back in with us

[livednlearned]

Please come to my 2nd annual pity party. You are all invited.

We suspect SO's ex has finally moved in with her affair partner, so D19 can no longer sleep in her mom's bed ( ) on weekends and college breaks.

D19 was suicidal a while back and reading between the lines, "mom never has time for me anymore" and "mom ignores me," we put other details together and figured she is feeling separation stress and became suicidal after her mom attached to the BF.

Because it's hard to enmesh with your BPD mom when her affair partner is sleeping on your side of the bed.  

After a long, trying summer last year trying to adjust to moving in together with SO (it will be a year in April), and realizing (for me) that D19 is BPD (she's diagnosed bipolar, and meets 8 of the 9 criteria for BPD), I was relieved when SO said D19 planned to stay in college over the summer in order to finish her degree on schedule.

She recently learned that she can take those classes online and texted him today to say she plans to live here.  

She's the neediest, clingiest person I know, and she'll be here not having anyone her own age to interact with day in, day out, for three months! Which means she will cling hardest to me because I'll be working form home from June-August, the exact time she's here.

I am really, really, really, really sad about this.

I feel grief.

SO's oldest daughter (22) will be moving in with us this summer, too, and living here for 2 years while she finishes graduate school. D22 is pretty well-adjusted and we get along well. No problem saying yes to her being here, so it's not like I could say no to D19 even if that was an option.

I feel this sense of panic, like I have to get a bunker ready and prepare for more of what we went through last summer. I have learned a lot of skills here and they work, but at the end of the day, I just want some peace and quiet and not have to work so hard all the time.

Where's that beach house when you need it.

[Naughty Nibbler]

Hey LNL:    

I'm so sorry that D19 will be spending the Summer at your house.  Any chance of getting her involved in some volunteer work somewhere?  Can she hang with her sister?

Are there any other options for the June-August time frame:  Go into the office? Work from a relative or friend's house? 

Can you set some boundaries for certain work hours and that D19 can't disturb you during those hours.  (lock yourself in a room?)

A secret beach house sounds like it would be a dream.  You could leave each day, as if you were going to the office and even put in some overtime. 

[heartandwhole]

I feel this sense of panic, like I have to get a bunker ready and prepare for more of what we went through last summer. I have learned a lot of skills here and they work, but at the end of the day, I just want some peace and quiet and not have to work so hard all the time.

LnL,

I feel for you. I know in your shoes, I'd feel the same. Very understandable that you are panicking a bit. I'm sorry that you feel sad about this. I really get that. 

Is it fixed that this will only be for 3 months?

heartandwhole

[livednlearned]

Thanks NN and heartandwhole,

I felt myself resorting to old dysfunctional family habits, pulling away from SO to stew and churn, creating emotional distance.

That gold standard has never worked well  

So this morning I expressed how I felt to SO and we did ok. We decided to do couples counseling again, well before she moves in. And come up with house rules. I know the house rules will only stand up if SO can assert them. Honestly, he is a weenie with this.

@heartandwhole, yes it will only be for 3 months. I guess I should be grateful it's not longer term.

One thing SO and I discussed was to not make it so cushy for the girls. We have two rooms for them but decided that the girls can share one room, and the other one will be an office for both of them. There is exercise equipment in there, too, so it will remain as a common area and hopefully prevent the area downstairs outside our bedroom from becoming a place where they hang out all the time. This makes it sound like normal empty nester type stuff, but with BPD it's Defcon 1 when it comes to boundary busting around here.

@Naughty Nibbler, I can come up with boundaries and figure out ways to limit my time. There are some boundaries that are harder to manage than others.

I guess the deep weariness I feel is that I've been avoiding home for a big part of my life. First in my dysfunctional FOO with a uBPD brother, and then in my marriage to N/BPDx. Now it's happening again.

This morning SO asked me what about this hurts so much and I realized for the first time it's not the reality, it's the pretending that things are normal that I find so hard.

[Grey Kitty]

  This sounds like a difficult summer coming up for you. Wish there was some magic way to make it easier.

I guess the deep weariness I feel is that I've been avoiding home for a big part of my life. First in my dysfunctional FOO with a uBPD brother, and then in my marriage to N/BPDx. Now it's happening again.

You may not have a beach house, but you really should have some emergency escape plans for yourself. I know how it sucks to have your home be the place you need to avoid instead of the refuge you want it to be, but protecting your sanity and emotional well being is more important than wishing your home was other than it is.

Perhaps you can "work from home" at the nearest Starbucks or something like that when you need to?

This morning SO asked me what about this hurts so much and I realized for the first time it's not the reality, it's the pretending that things are normal that I find so hard.

You obviously need to treat SD19 with the best tools, and some of that will be making nice and pretending to be normal.

That said, there is a huge silver lining opportunity in this: You don't have to pretend ANYTHING around SO.

I know the house rules will only stand up if SO can assert them. Honestly, he is a weenie with this.

If *YOU* are strong, if *YOU* enforce good boundaries, and you stay above the fight, it will be painfully obvious that SD19 is creating chaos and SO is being an enabling weenie.   In fact, you won't even have to say a word, and might not even need to roll your eyes to make the point; I hope you can resist doing that, no matter how hard it is!

And I'm betting he cares enough about you to man up and do better.    Be the person whose example inspires him to do better, instead of the one whose nagging makes him guilty for failing.

[livednlearned]

Thanks GK. I was hoping you would chime in  

Sorry this is so long. It's helping to just get this out.

You don't have to pretend ANYTHING around SO.

I sort of do, though. He and I do not discuss D19 being BPD. SO has a mom with BPD traits, a sister he believes is BPD, and a uBPD wife. Once, I very very delicately broached the possibility of D19 having BPD and it was clear this is not a possibility he is ready to discuss. Yet, he knows she has something. He is not in total agreement with her bipolar dx, and questions it. There is something deeply emotional there blocking him from even discussing the possibility she is BPD.

In some ways, it's ok that he won't say BPD out loud because I can still talk about the behaviors and use language that describes the disorder, and suggest skills, and he's on the same page with me on all that. He can be remarkably open discussing how her behaviors affect him. Yet, there is a definite wall when it comes to acknowledging she has a personality disorder. The reason this matters is because recognizing the severity of her behaviors = being BPD means recognizing the severity, period. They are the same thing. And that means, by not acknowledging the severity, it feels like we're pretending and tiptoeing around the real issue.

Meanwhile, she was recently suicidal and reported to her pdoc (who, with D19's permission, called SO) that D19 is basically "chronically suicidal."  In our conversation today, I brought this up, and SO said she seems to be doing fine now. But she's chronically suicidal... .I asked if this is too emotional to discuss, and he just seems bewildered, like it can't be explained therefore can't be understood.

Honestly, and I mean this, if we could have an honest open conversation about her being BPD (versus me trying to convince him, which will just make us both miserable and won't work anyway), it would mean acknowledging the elephant in the room, and then dealing with the elephant and figuring out how to live with it. Somehow, not calling it BPD means treating it like it's a medium concern instead of a serious problem. Not just for me, but for D19!

If *YOU* are strong, if *YOU* enforce good boundaries, and you stay above the fight, it will be painfully obvious that SD19 is creating chaos and SO is being an enabling weenie.   In fact, you won't even have to say a word, and might not even need to roll your eyes to make the point; I hope you can resist doing that, no matter how hard it is!

SO has a very high threshold for tolerating D19's particular brand of chaos, and not in the good way. Today we talked about D19's clinging on him, and while he can admit that it's very awkward and uncomfortable for him, he is at a loss how to stop it. He walks in the door after work and she moves in for a long, long hug. Like minutes long, and the kind of hug that is controlling. He will try to end the hug and move past her and she will start hugging harder. He tries to gently laugh it off or move her arms to the side, or tries a martial arts move that they both learned, but then she catches his arm and holds onto him as he comes into the house. He can't even set his stuff down because she's got him in a death grip.

Do I say something? I'm not an eye roller but sometimes it's hard to not hide my repulsion when stuff like this happens because it is pretty weird! My T thinks this is hostile behavior toward me, that it's passive aggressive and SO needs to end it, for D19's sake as well as his. It may not be conscious on her part, and yet harmful to her anyway because when he gives in, it confirms that it's a strategy that works, something she takes with her into her other relationships (average lifespan of 3 months... .)

And I'm betting he cares enough about you to man up and do better.    Be the person whose example inspires him to do better, instead of the one whose nagging makes him guilty for failing.

He has been remarkable about remaining open and willing to follow my lead. I've also worked really, really, really hard at learning these skills -- they do work! I know he appreciates my efforts with D19 and I'm very gentle with him and not pushy. He is working on this in his own way, trying to get our home set up so that I'm not overtaxed.

Am I worried too much about being codependent here? Do I just put it on the table and say this is what I think is going on? So at least I'm not walking on eggshells?

Or, like we have discussed, see my T for couples counseling and let her bring it up?

The pretending is really hard. He's not even the one with the PD!

[Grey Kitty]

I sort of do, though. He and I do not discuss D19 being BPD.
[... .]
In some ways, it's ok that he won't say BPD out loud because I can still talk about the behaviors and use language that describes the disorder, and suggest skills, and he's on the same page with me on all that.

I've often said addressing the behaviors is more productive than getting a pwBPD to accept the label "BPD".

It is kinda weird that your SO is trying so hard to avoid the label with SD19... .but the same approach seems to apply. I'd recommend you TRY to let the concern about talking to SO about her BPD go as much as you can.

And what I said about not pretending really can work--you don't have to pretend SD19's behavior doesn't upset you. You don't even have to pretend that SO's codependence around it doesn't bother you!

Do I say something? I'm not an eye roller but sometimes it's hard to not hide my repulsion when stuff like this happens because it is pretty weird! My T thinks this is hostile behavior toward me, that it's passive aggressive and SO needs to end it, for D19's sake as well as his. It may not be conscious on her part, and yet harmful to her anyway because when he gives in, it confirms that it's a strategy that works

I wasn't saying you were and eye roller... .I just wasn't figuring you were THAT good at hiding your feelings... .and this clearly is driving some powerful feelings that are going to leak out one way or another... .aimed somewhat at SD19 but more at SO.

Hmmmm... .this might be a key for you:

You know how to use the tools to better interact with SD19, and you don't expect a good healthy adult relationship with her. You don't seem to be taking her bad behavior personally, and don't seem that upset with her.

You care more about SO, and you expect better from him. He's obviously struggling a lot more than you dealing with SD19... .at least from a practical "doing it right" point of view! And watching him flail around in this is really really distressing for you. (In addition to the more direct consequences of her passive aggressive efforts to wedge between you and SO)

Can we help you not take his codependent reactions to her chaos and provocations so personally?

[livednlearned]

I've often said addressing the behaviors is more productive than getting a pwBPD to accept the label "BPD".

Me too  

It is kinda weird that your SO is trying so hard to avoid the label with SD19... .but the same approach seems to apply. I'd recommend you TRY to let the concern about talking to SO about her BPD go as much as you can.

I need to let this go.

Last night we were talking about the spare room and he said, Maybe we just keep the futon couch in here and put the desks there, etc., and tell the girls this is a common area for studying and exercising. And I said, If that happens, if there is a futon in here, then one or the other will end up claiming this as a bedroom.

He looked really sad and tired. I see the codependent battle going on for him, and I feel bad and I also intend to stand firm on this. He wants to please all of us, and that's not possible. For me, this is BPD terra firma. It is much harder to violate a boundary if there is no bed in here in the first place. And if I don't stand firm now, then it will be next to impossible to roll things back after she gets here.  

I don't know whether it would've been easier in this moment if I could've just said, "I'm thinking that D19's BPD will mean she does xyz, and that's not healthy for her because abc... ."

Probably wouldn't make a difference.

Who knows.

That's not really the kind of scenario where it really matters, tho. It's more the bigger picture, the more serious patterns.

And what I said about not pretending really can work--you don't have to pretend SD19's behavior doesn't upset you. You don't even have to pretend that SO's codependence around it doesn't bother you!

I hear what you are saying, I really do. And I want to get there. I'm working on it, and there were stretches last summer where I was ok at this.

And yet, some of this behavior is so insidious and weird, it's hard to even describe because it's not externalized rage and abuse. And SO has his own way of normalizing it. Which means when I point it out, I feel like the source of conflict.

Maybe I am the source of conflict

this clearly is driving some powerful feelings that are going to leak out one way or another... .aimed somewhat at SD19 but more at SO.

I guess it is aimed, altho the big stuff I take to my T and share here, so SO gets a very measured, thoughtful response for the most part (other than at the beginning of all this last summer, when things were bumpier).

Sometimes, in the moment, it's just   because the behavior really is   and I can see friends responding with raised eyebrows, like what the what is this? We had a party last summer and D19 followed him around everywhere, standing a few inches from him, often her body touching his. She tried to hold his hand, kept hugging him while he was talking to people. Literally tugging on his sleeve while he's in a conversation. D19 turns into a toddler around him and no one helps her with this   .

You know how to use the tools to better interact with SD19, and you don't expect a good healthy adult relationship with her. You don't seem to be taking her bad behavior personally, and don't seem that upset with her.

She does upset me altho it's being in a step role does give me a small degree of distance, tho I see her making moves to get closer and attach to me.

You're right that I do seem to become more upset when SO plays down the behaviors.

Can we help you not take his codependent reactions to her chaos and provocations so personally?

I'm open to any and all suggestions on how to do this!

To some extent, I remove myself from participating when they are together because it's so awkward and uncomfortable and feels like work. My T thinks that is not really helping me, or the situation, and definitely not helping D19 in the sense she becomes emboldened to act in regressed ways knowing it will make me recede, and she gets to glom onto SO, which prevents her from individuating. Rinse and repeat.

When I do participate, if D19 regresses in ways that are kinda obvious, I say things in more or less skilled ways. Like, if I am trying to cook, SO will stand near me and be affectionate, and next thing I know D19 is right there tugging on her dad. I'll shoo them away and they'll shuffle out together and there are no hard feelings. If D19 follows SO into the bedroom, and I walk in I'll say to both, Ok you two, out.

Could I say, "Hey D19, when your dad is affectionate with me, does it make you feel left out? I know I used to feel that way about my mom and dad. I had a hard time in my teens when I realized I wasn't a kid anymore and my relationship with my dad became less affectionate after I went through puberty."

Too far across the line? She is not my bio child, so it's a bit weirder here.

Other awkward moments are things like: D19 gets needier at night, so when SO and I go into the bedroom, she will do things like drag the dog to our door (I can hear this!) and say he wants to come in. Then the dog jumps on our bed and D19 climbs on the bed too in order to cuddle him. When it's me, I say why not take the dog to your room. SO just opens the door and let's them in.

Maybe I need to focus more on taking care of myself and less on the nitty gritty of asserting these boundaries Maybe these boundaries are meaningless.  

Maybe SO and I pick a night each week where it's just us, with no phones (D19 texts constantly when we do this). Once a week couples counseling. Maybe I plan 3-4 trips to see friends over the summer, one a month to help me get through the summer. I don't have the money but maybe there are cheaper ways to make this work that I haven't thought of yet.

I can't tell if I'm making all of this worse than it really is.

[GaGrl]

How does she respond when told that her physical behavior is inappropriate? To me, some of this is simply bad manners.

[Grey Kitty]

And yet, some of this behavior is so insidious and weird, it's hard to even describe because it's not externalized rage and abuse. And SO has his own way of normalizing it. Which means when I point it out, I feel like the source of conflict.

Maybe I am the source of conflict

Conflict is when two people want different things. It comes from both of them. I 'spose you can blame one more than the other if one's desires are unreasonable. But the real problem is not having a conflict, but how the conflict is resolved (or not!) (If done badly enough there are more conflicts created to avoid the original one!)

SD19's response to conflicts really suck. (Hello, BPD    )
SO's response of normalizing / avoiding the conflict isn't as bad, but clearly you aren't impressed and neither am I 
Is your response to the conflict healthy?

Bringing conflict out into the open and pushing people to resolve it isn't the same thing as creating conflict--if you are doing this and believe it is the right thing to do, try to let go of feeling guilty for "creating conflict".

He looked really sad and tired. I see the codependent battle going on for him, and I feel bad and I also intend to stand firm on this. He wants to please all of us, and that's not possible.

 Oh honey, I feel for you. (My wife and I got involved with another couple. He was like this, and it made conflicts which mostly involved him and his wife, or my wife and his wife really painful to watch) It isn't healthy to LIKE conflict, but avoiding it can get toxic if you go too far!

You know... .thinking about it... .my situation was different as there was a romantic triangle, and I'm sure there is nothing romantic between SO and SD19... .but the conflict and competition you two have over your SO has a similar feel to it.

Unfortunately for you, the good/healthy options require your SO to stand up to SD19 better than he has been doing so far. What can you do when SD19 gloms onto SO, trying to wedge the two of you apart?

• Stand there being a polite third wheel, seething and watching her get away with it. NOPE!
• Politely leave or ask the two of them to leave... .you don't have to watch, but she gets her reward.
• Kick SD19 out, or take SO away from her with you, feeling like you are being a ___ about it, as you are the one taking a non-verbal passive-aggressive conflict out into the open.

I think you've mostly ruled out the first one, and you aren't happy with the second version either. And you sound rather reluctant or afraid of taking the third option.

Could I say, "Hey D19, when your dad is affectionate with me, does it make you feel left out? I know I used to feel that way about my mom and dad. I had a hard time in my teens when I realized I wasn't a kid anymore and my relationship with my dad became less affectionate after I went through puberty."

Yeah, I get how having this conversation with her would be difficult, and I'm not sure how well it would go. And better to find a time outside this immediate conflict to talk to her about it. It would be better for her to hear it from SO than from you--He can reassure her that he loves her and you aren't a threat to that which she needs to defend against. (OTOH, you are a threat to the codependent patterns she's got SO in, so perhaps she is more "right" than "wrong" about it)

You know... .I don't think you are going to have much luck without your SO's full support. One problem is what my wife used to do which I called the "I'm not doing anything wrong game". She admitted that when she was in middle school she stared at another girl throughout an entire class, getting the girl madder and madder. After the bell, the girl started to beat her up. My wife didn't hit or hit back, and tried to say she didn't do anything wrong--she WAS provoking the other girl, but tried to deny that she did it. This was a crude, extreme version of this game, but my wife was a master of it--she would do or say things that were provocations, and then if I (or anybody else) got upset, rather indignantly insisted she wasn't doing anything, or wasn't doing anything wrong... .because the subtle or non-verbal things had a veneer of deniability on them. Or aren't a problem if done once, but they are done a dozen times, and the denial is about how reasonable the 20th incident that somebody called her on when they ran out of patience was.

It sounds like SD19 is good at it, and SO plays into it. And you lose and it drives you nuts. (And SO doesn't like it either, he just feels helpless)


  Put your SO on notice. You expect him to defend you from those insidious attempts by SD19 to wedge him away from you. It is HIS JOB. Not yours.

And if he keeps falling down on his job, sooner or later you are gonna play the ___ card and tell SD19 exactly where she can stuff it, etc. That if he wants to keep the overt conflict down at a reasonable level, he's gotta stand up to SD19.

[livednlearned]

Unfortunately for you, the good/healthy options require your SO to stand up to SD19 better than he has been doing so far. What can you do when SD19 gloms onto SO, trying to wedge the two of you apart?

Don't I create problems for myself if I expect him to enforce what is essentially a boundary for me? And actually, in the bigger picture, this is why the BPD label matters. I am almost certain that if we talked about BPD openly, I could say, Hey, when you give into her merge fantasy and reciprocate her intense need, you keep her stuck. She regresses. And that's hard for me because she's making me part of her test, and that's not good for me, and it's not good for us.

I say this to him in less direct ways, and he does listen to some extent, but I suspect he is doing it for me more than he is doing it because it's healthier for her.

Kick SD19 out, or take SO away from her with you, feeling like you are being a ___ about it, as you are the one taking a non-verbal passive-aggressive conflict out into the open.[/li][/list]

I do this without the ___iness, to a degree. How would ___iness help? I mean that sincerely.

Proactive things I do to create boundaries for myself:

*I tell SO when it's time for a night with just the two of us. He appreciates me being proactive
*At night, the hour before bed, we watch TV in our room, something I have never done before and started to do because of D19's neediness.
*I've put my foot down about the girls sharing a room so that we still have the common area upstairs -- this keeps both girls out of my home office, gives them a place to study (keeps them out of the kitchen), and gives them a TV (makes it less likely they'll watch downstairs next to our room).

Policing efforts to enforce my boundaries:

*I kick her out of our room in a non-aggressive but firm way
*I do not directly engage in her crises, I validate and gently encourage her to talk to her T

Avoiding things to take care of myself:

*I rarely spend time outside the house if it's the three of us, so no walking the dog together or going on hikes as a threesome
*I minimize how much I eat with them, although it probably works out to 3 meals a week together
*When D19 is home alone, I stay busy

Things I do to include her:

*If it's a group event, like friends meeting at the pool, I'll invite her from time to time
*I will go for walks with her when it's just the two of us
*I'm good at including her in conversations when there is a group

Stuff that is difficult but challenging to address, with D19 directly, and SO to an extent:

*Excessive, toddler-like hugging of SO
*Excessive, intrusive texting w/ SO
*Disgusting table manners (I do address some parts of this)
*Filthy bedroom and bathroom
*Binge eating (I have to hide food  )

I know some of this stuff sound like bad manners or minor stuff, it's how it plays out in the big picture that is so distressing. My T said D19 is on an unconscious deeply hostile toward me, the passive-aggressive stuff, because I am a threat to her merger fantasy with SO, which she (also unconsciously) believes is what he expects. T repeatedly points out when I'm avoiding the issue instead of addressing it head-on, but I have yet to figure out a way to do that. Is that what you mean by being ___y?

How about this situation: I was showing SO how something on his phone works. I was behind him, my arms through his, holding his phone with him, while he was trying to learn something from me. I see D19 on the other side of the room get up, and know this is too much for her. She comes within an inch and is touching his arm, tugging it, stroking it   and then it gets to be too much and she starts hugging him while I'm holding him from behind   I let go because: weird! And SO is in an awkward hug with D19 almost pushing him over, draping herself on him.

What's the best way to respond?

Maybe I'm reluctant or afraid to be ___y because it generates more stress for me, and what will it solve? I guess I'm trying to imagine how it would make things better.

you are a threat to the codependent patterns she's got SO in, so perhaps she is more "right" than "wrong" about it)

She is definitely right that I am a threat to her role. This is common in step families (I had a step son with N/BPDx, and there was some of that with him in the beginning, but not anything like this). When he is at his most open, SO admits how challenging she is, how awkward she makes him feel. She's excessively needy. And super passive-aggressive about getting her needs met. The way you describe your ex wife staring at that girl is such a good description. I know enough about BPD to know that it won't help me to get locked in at her level, which is why I favor being proactive more than trying to win points in the moment. She wants to hold his hand while he's cooking? Ok. That's weird, but how do I make things better by letting her know it bothers me?

It sounds like SD19 is good at it, and SO plays into it. And you lose and it drives you nuts. (And SO doesn't like it either, he just feels helpless)

Yes. This is it in a nutshell.

 

Put your SO on notice. You expect him to defend you from those insidious attempts by SD19 to wedge him away from you. It is HIS JOB. Not yours.

And if he keeps falling down on his job, sooner or later you are gonna play the ___ card and tell SD19 exactly where she can stuff it, etc. That if he wants to keep the overt conflict down at a reasonable level, he's gotta stand up to SD19.

Isn't that an ultimatum?

[Grey Kitty]

You know, I'm not recommending you get ___y or aggressive about it. And I think you are making the very best of it in many situations. Here's the problem as I see it::

*Excessive, toddler-like hugging of SO
*Excessive, intrusive texting w/ SO

When he is at his most open, SO admits how challenging she is, how awkward she makes him feel. She's excessively needy. And super passive-aggressive about getting her needs met.

Part of it is the inappropriate / needy behavior. Ultimately you are going to have to let her figure that out on her own. Letting go will be hard, but you can do it.

The other part of it is how this drives a wedge between you and SO.

That's where I think you need to have a zero tolerance policy, where you simply do not let it work, no matter how uncomfortable it gets.

If she just reached for his hand while cooking once, you could and should let it go.

She's not doing it just once. It is a pervasive pattern of behavior. That's why it is driving you nuts. And if you are going to break it, you have to be consistent enforcing the boundary. Remember the lesson about intermittent reinforcement and extinction bursts!

You are already trying to do it kindly, firmly, without excess conflict... .I'd suggest you start by telling SO that this needy wedge behavior isn't something you can tolerate, and you would very much appreciate him shutting it down, but if he doesn't you will. With as much force as needed. And make sure he understands the patterns of behavior as clearly as you do.

And show SD19 the same thing through consistent actions--that no matter what she does, these needy clingy attempts to get SO's attention away from you aren't going to "work". That she won't get the reward of attention from SO that she wants that way.

I hope he can do other things to show her that he isn't abandoning her, that he cares about her and supports her... .while he expects better behavior from her.

Texting should be easier--when you and SO have private time, you expect him to at least mute her on his phone.

[livednlearned]

I think I see what you're saying... .I do get the principle (of setting boundaries) behind these changes.

I'm feeling a bit fuzzy on how things would work in practice.

So, for example these scenarios:

*SO and I want to take the dog for a walk, and D19 says, "You can come" sweetly (as though this is their thing and I'm allowed to join them  . ___y approach might entail me saying, "Of course I can come. Your dad and I live together and walk the dog every day!" Boom.

*OR, there are times when SO and I want to talk about things and have that time to ourselves. I could say, "Hey, SO and I are heading out together for some alone time. We need some time just the two of us. We can do something together later tonight, or you can have time with your dad after dinner."

*SO and I are cooking in the kitchen and D19 is stuck to him like glue. I can shoo her to sit on the other side of the counter and give us some space to cook.

*Or, if SO and I are cooking, tell her to arrange a certain night of the week when she and her dad can cook together in the kitchen. Say something about how cooking is harder when someone is standing right there, and encourage her to learn by doing and asking questions instead of holding onto people while they work.

*SO and I might hold hands while we are walking and if she starts to increase her own physical contact, tell her I find it awkward because she's an adult child and that kind of contact is usually reserved for romantic relationships.

*She comes to our door at night when we close it to go to bed, and she always has an excuse for why. "The dog wants in," or "I want to take the dog upstairs with me," or "I can't find my charger for my phone." Do I tell her, "When the door is closed, we are done for the night. Dog can stay with you, or dog is staying here, or look for your charger in the morning."

Or, am I telling SO that this is how I will handle things if he doesn't?

[Grey Kitty]

As for working this in practice, I've got some ideas, but first focus on the goal, make that 100% clear.

The goal isn't to stop SD19 from glomming onto SO  physically. It would be nice, but isn't your problem. And ultimately, a physically affectionate relationship with an adult child seems like a good thing; I hope they can have one with better boundaries someday.

The goal is to stop SD19 from wedging herself in between you and SO this way.

If they have father-daugther time, you don't want to intrude... .and if she pushes SO's boundaries during their time together, it really isn't your problem.

Anyhow, if that is the goal, I'd be very direct and clear at not letting her get away with this crap... .either with words, or actions.

I might also tell her that you are happy that she has a good and physically affectionate relationship with SO, but you won't tolerate her cranking it up any time she sees you and SO being affectionate. [Yeah, re-write that one with better BPD tools, but that's the message]

Can you apply that focus to the uncertain situations? (Or do you have a different goal in mind for yourself?)

[livednlearned]

Yes, 100 percent this is the goal:

The goal is to stop SD19 from wedging herself in between you and SO this way.

I feel the passive-aggression and want to handle it skillfully.

I might also tell her that you are happy that she has a good and physically affectionate relationship with SO, but you won't tolerate her cranking it up any time she sees you and SO being affectionate. [Yeah, re-write that one with better BPD tools, but that's the message]

Rewriting that one with better BPD tools... .now that I have let things slide, how gentle am I going forward? How direct?

"I am happy you have a good, physically affectionate relationship with SO. I notice that when your dad is affectionate with me, or spends more time with me, you seem to feel left out and want more contact with him. Is that right?"

Do I do it like that? Or do I take more of this approach,

"I am happy you have a good, affectionate relationship with SO. I recognize that when I spend time with your dad, or we are affectionate, this is hard for you. Feeling off center when a new person comes into your family is normal. ... ."

Gah. I don't know. I can't think of a skilled way to do this, to be honest. I don't want to create a test, if that makes sense. I want to shine sunlight on the behavior and give her a way to get her needs met that are healthier.

Can you apply that focus to the uncertain situations? (Or do you have a different goal in mind for yourself?)

I read in a book about passive aggression that humor can be an effective antidote. So in the uncertain situations, I can imagine saying things like, "Fancy you showing up at this late hour. Your dad and I are in bed and the dog is in for the night. So good you're here all summer so he can sleep with you another night."

Or, if it's the third night in a row, "You're late. I was expecting you at 9:10pm  like the last 3 nights."

I can't think of anything light-hearted for times like when he comes home from work and she body slams him first thing. In a book on step parenting I was reading, the author talks about how important it is to emotional and physical boundaries that instill respect for the step couple relationship, and one of the things is enforcing a boundary where the couple connects first before the kids when mom/dad comes home, even if it's just a quick kiss or hello. I guess I could go to the door and assert myself and gently tell D19 she needs to wait so her dad and I can touch base. And keep doing that until she backs off a bit?

[Grey Kitty]

Good, I thought that was your goal. I'd tackle it from a boundary enforcement point of view, and I'd recommend you do it in two parts. Your choice on the order... .

First off, you need to consistently protect yourself from the consequence of the bad behavior:

That means she tries to glom on / wedge in and push you out, and you prevent that outcome from happening. Being "nice" or "skillful" is a bonus. Results are what matter.

Be consistent.  And be ready for some sort of extinction burst. Power through it. (And warn SO that fireworks may be coming, like it or not!)

You don't need to tell SD19 that you are enforcing the boundary. All you need is the action. And all she needs to know is that her passive-aggressive attempts to wedge herself between you and SO won't work.

That said, what are skillful things you can try? I like yours, but I'd add one other option you seem reluctant to do:

Calling her directly on the game she's playing, identifying it when she does it. This takes a passive, indirect, deniable conflict and turns it into a direct (perhaps claws out) conflict. And not participating if she tries to start a "I didn't do anything wrong" circular argument".

You know what you did. I know what you did. I'm not playing that game with you or arguing about it anymore.

Second, you should have a conversation about what she's doing that you object to. (Best just the two of you when she's in a relatively peaceful, receptive mood, not just after you shut her down!)

As prep for this, start by letting go of the idea that you have any right to an opinion that her glomming onto her dad is inappropriate. That as an adult, she shouldn't be physically affectionate and clingy that way with her dad. That's not your problem. If SO doesn't like it, it is his problem, not yours) LET IT GO.

Tell her that you support her r/s with her dad. It is true--you do. Tell her that you support her and her dad having time together without you. (Also true, and you don't have to tell her that her clingy crap makes you want to   )

Tell her that you see her need for reassurance, that you understand her fears and her discomfort.

And tell her that you love her dad too, and that when she does certain things, it feels like she's trying to put herself in between you and her dad like a wedge, and you aren't OK with that.


Optional preliminary step--discuss this game plan with SO. Don't let him talk you out of it, but if (UNLIKELY!) he wants to take a more active participatory role to help you, welcome it. I think he could probably help you more with the explanation part with SD19 than you can expect him to on the boundary enforcement part.

Be clear that SD19 wedging between you and him is a problem you won't tolerate.

And that if she wants to cling to him like a limpet when you aren't around, you understand that it is his problem, and you will do your best to stay out of it.

Somebody here once said that a truly beautiful thing about validation is that it puts the responsibility for something exactly where it belongs. You can show that clarity to SO. It will be one of the worst things you can do that he will thank you for, if you know what I mean!   

[heartandwhole]

"I am happy you have a good, physically affectionate relationship with SO. I notice that when your dad is affectionate with me, or spends more time with me, you seem to feel left out and want more contact with him. Is that right?"

Do I do it like that? Or do I take more of this approach,

"I am happy you have a good, affectionate relationship with SO. I recognize that when I spend time with your dad, or we are affectionate, this is hard for you. Feeling off center when a new person comes into your family is normal. ... ."

Gah. I don't know. I can't think of a skilled way to do this, to be honest. I don't want to create a test, if that makes sense. I want to shine sunlight on the behavior and give her a way to get her needs met that are healthier.

This is hard stuff, LnL, and I admire your desire to do your best and give SD a chance. I know in your shoes I'd be scrambling to "make a plan," which is a kind of controlling thing that I do. (I call myself a "pre-crastinator" because sometimes I am so way ahead of things and I find out later my efforts weren't necessary.)

In this case, I think it's good to have plan in which you and SO are on the same page as much as possible.  

In the scenario above, I like your idea above of asking her how she feels ("Is that right?" Are you two close enough that you think she would be comfortable telling you how she feels about this?

Another idea might be to say something like, "You have a good, affectionate relationship with your dad, and I really support that/think it's great. When your dad and I are spending time together, just the two of us, we ask that you support us, too, by giving us some space to be affectionate with each other. Your dad loves you very much, and I know he has plenty of affection to go around."

I know how easy it is to come up with ideas when one is nowhere near having the same experience.    I am very confident that you will handle this with grace, as you have so many other situations.

heartandwhole  

[livednlearned]

You know what you did. I know what you did. I'm not playing that game with you or arguing about it anymore.

I am reluctant to be this direct, you are right. Bit of a weenie when I think about this stuff in advance. Other times, I can be very assertive. I admire the intention and delivery, and I know this is what has to happen. If I am not this direct, then she will be very slippery, and we'll be back to square one plus a few minuses for me.

I was also reading about how there is an "architecture" and stages in building a step family, so I'm mindful that I was building a caring foundation last summer. This summer will have the added variable of both girls living in the house, which could tip the dynamic in ways I haven't anticipated. I need to be flexible and also keep an eye on my own weenie-ness. 

Tell her that you see her need for reassurance, that you understand her fears and her discomfort.

And tell her that you love her dad too, and that when she does certain things, it feels like she's trying to put herself in between you and her dad like a wedge, and you aren't OK with that.

I can imagine doing this as part one, and then later, when the boundary busting is happening, being more direct and assertive.

Optional preliminary step--discuss this game plan with SO. Don't let him talk you out of it, but if (UNLIKELY!) he wants to take a more active participatory role to help you, welcome it. I think he could probably help you more with the explanation part with SD19 than you can expect him to on the boundary enforcement part.

That's a good plan, and likely to happen exactly the way you describe.

I can see how the key is to not let my resentment build, so that when I am direct with her, it doesn't blow up in my own face as well as hers.

[livednlearned]

I know in your shoes I'd be scrambling to "make a plan," which is a kind of controlling thing that I do. (I call myself a "pre-crastinator" because sometimes I am so way ahead of things and I find out later my efforts weren't necessary.)

  pre-crastinator

I definitely did not have a plan last summer, and things were pretty rocky.

In the scenario above, I like your idea above of asking her how she feels ("Is that right?" Are you two close enough that you think she would be comfortable telling you how she feels about this?

She is very, very passive. Honestly, I don't know that she is comfortable saying how she feels in any relationship. She isn't comfortable with herself.

Another idea might be to say something like, "You have a good, affectionate relationship with your dad, and I really support that/think it's great. When your dad and I are spending time together, just the two of us, we ask that you support us, too, by giving us some space to be affectionate with each other. Your dad loves you very much, and I know he has plenty of affection to go around."

I like that, too. I think SO has said something like this to her.

She is very sneaky, similar to how GK was describing his wife staring at the other girl's head. D19 is like that too. It's hard to put in words because on the surface it sounds so innocuous. Because of that, I feel like I might need to focus on what I will do and be more explicit. So more of this: "It feels like you are trying to put yourself in between me and your dad like a wedge, and I am not OK with that." And then when it happens, I am in a position to shine light on it. "You know what you are doing. I know, you know. I'm not playing this game, D19. You're an adult, and this something something something (isn't healthy? is not appropriate? makes me uncomfortable? is passive aggressive?"

[Grey Kitty]

Yeah, she is effective at using the ambiguity and deniability as a tool to get her way. Having seen my wife do it (and also seen her father do similar things, I can guess the next thing that will happen when you try to make it explicit and be direct.

The next thing will be a claim of innocence, insisting that the action she just took is a reasonable, and that you are in the wrong by objecting to it, due to (fill in the blank) ... .while totally ignoring the larger pattern which made it a problem, rather than an innocent act.

I experienced it more in a direct way than in triangulation as you are getting it... .but what I called this was doubling down on the invalidation: First do/say something invalidating [grab SO from you while you are cooking with him]. When you challenge, double down, invalidating your claim that she actually DID something!

Don't let yourself get trapped in the circular argument with the secondary invalidation, trying to shake her out of her denials, JADEing, etc.

You might want to mentally prepare "extreme" measures, for example, if she insists on glomming onto SO while the two of you are cooking together, and won't take "no" for an answer, having to bail mid-way through cooking the meal, with something like "SO, I'm not putting up with this. We're going out for pizza." Turn off the stove, maybe put food back away, maybe leave it sit and clean up when you return, grab his hand, get in the car and go.

I know that feels yucky and awkward to do it... .but letting insidious boundary busting is far worse... .and after an extinction burst, it will be much better.

Planning this out in advance with SO will be ... .uhm ... .weeeellllll ... .a good growth process for the two of you 

[livednlearned]

I am not sure I can do that, if I'm to be brutally honest with myself.

From how D19 has been in the past, I think if I tell her to leave the kitchen, she will be compliant, and then she will do something a little later to get even. I just can't see myself shutting down dinner and leaving with SO.

Last night, I realized (again) this is an issue with SO, not necessarily D19. I think I need to see the boundary busting as an SO issue, and treat it that way. The goal for me is to eliminate the discomfort I feel, and he is struggling to take action in the moment. If that's going to be an ongoing problem, then I will ask him to be proactive with me. Or, in uncertain situations, like the clingy behaviors, let him know I plan to address it directly and shine light on what is happening.

*I can tell SO that I would prefer he and I eat out alone, together, 3-4 nights a week.

*I can tell SO that if D19 comes to our door at night, I will answer and tell her we're closed for the night.

*I can tell SO that I will begin commenting on the excessive hugging, in direct and frank terms.

*I can ask SO to check in with D19 at 8 or 8:30pm to make sure she has asked all her questions before he turns in.

Knowing SO, when I really think about all of this... .he does not want me to be direct with D19. I think if I take a step forward and start to shine light on the behavior, he will get nervous and choose to move outside his comfort zone and handle things himself.

I am fortunate in that he is not defending her behavior, which, if the step parenting books and boards are any indication, is not uncommon. He knows it's weird. I know it's weird. Where I am unfortunate in that there is no consequence for letting her do this.

[Grey Kitty]

  Good to be honest with yourself about what you are wiling to do to enforce a boundary... .and what you aren't.

Knowing SO, when I really think about all of this... .he does not want me to be direct with D19. I think if I take a step forward and start to shine light on the behavior, he will get nervous and choose to move outside his comfort zone and handle things himself.

    SO's coping mechanism (be quietly unhappy but let SD19 get away with being clingy/needy) sucks. For everybody involved. But it "works" for him because he avoids the direct conflict he doesn't want to experience.

You can take that dubious coping mechanism away from him by directly challenging the behavior he is ignoring.

He's not mentally ill, so it won't be too hard for him to find better ways to deal with this.

And it will force SD19 to find another way to get her needs met, hopefully a healthier one as well.

[livednlearned]

I can't thank you enough for taking the time to walk me through this. 

I feel good. I was having a hard time seeing this clearly! I had to go slow and really imagine what I could and couldn't do, and how it would likely feel to pull this off.

SO called me a few minutes ago to say that D23 and D19 went hiking this weekend up where D19 lives, and they decided it was better if they had separate rooms this summer. 

Well played, D23!

The old SO would've rolled over and come back to me saying his girls weren't happy about the arrangement, and that he caved to their requests. Instead, he told D23 that it's temporary and not negotiable, and they can make it work in that small bedroom. Double high five! He was so pleased with himself.

[heartandwhole]

The old SO would've rolled over and come back to me saying his girls weren't happy about the arrangement, and that he caved to their requests. Instead, he told D23 that it's temporary and not negotiable, and they can make it work in that small bedroom. Double high five! He was so pleased with himself.

This is good news, LnL! Well done, SO 

[Grey Kitty]

Awesome!

You do your best, you use good boundaries... .and you inspire your SO to do the same.

Keep it up, and this summer might even be fun!

[DreamGirl]

Daughters and Dads are tough, even when there is not a mental health issue involved.

I like your boundary list and I'm loving that you're setting them with your SO rather then trying to change the relationships he has with his daughters. He's gotta want that for himself.

I work hard at giving myself a break too. I like road trips with my boys. And lots of alone time. I have that ADD component that plops me in a book store for 3 hours on a Sunday afternoon.

How's your son handling all the extra estrogen and BPD components in his space?

[livednlearned]

Daughters and Dads are tough, even when there is not a mental health issue involved.

Only one D is like this. D23 is my people, we are building a really nice relationship.

D19, who looks and acts and wears men's clothing, is the one playing out the typical daddy/daughter thing, totally upending my stereotypes of gender differences.

I like your boundary list and I'm loving that you're setting them with your SO rather then trying to change the relationships he has with his daughters. He's gotta want that for himself.

Yah. And the thing I realize that gets me in trouble is he keeps saying he wants these changes in his relationships. It's like a drug! I get hooked and want more. I need to realize that wanting it and doing it are different, and he's in charge of doing it.

I work hard at giving myself a break too. I like road trips with my boys. And lots of alone time. I have that ADD component that plops me in a book store for 3 hours on a Sunday afternoon.

Of all the things I do, giving myself a break is probably the one I do best, for better or worse. My T is saying to roll this back a bit and stay in the picture.

How's your son handling all the extra estrogen and BPD components in his space?

He ignores D19 -- he smells boundary issues on people a mile away, which is a whole other problem on the opposite side of the spectrum. Plus he's a pretty awkward teen ager, not very social and has his own issues with anxiety and depression that he is coping with.

Basically, all of our kids are messed up in one way or another. 

One sad thing is that I had this plan to try and re-establish contact with my dad this summer (narc traits) after 5 years of not talking. SO was going to travel back there with me for moral support -- my dad hasn't met him. But with D19 staying with us, that plan is off the table. D23 and S15 home together is easy. Having D19 in the picture feels (to both SO and me) too risky, for reasons that he cannot articulate. My hunch is that D19 would try to start something weird with S15 as a way to get back at SO for leaving with me. 

[livednlearned]

Kind of an interesting breakthrough.

I'm still trying to make sense of it.

SO and I managed to get super vulnerable with each other. Like really vulnerable.

We were talking about D19 being here this summer, and I fessed up to something. I don't know that the detail of it really matters, just that it was something hard to admit to after denying it. I wanted to be right.  

Maybe because I was vulnerable, SO felt he could be too. He said, choking up, that when D19 was little, she was his favorite. He described how cuddly she was, how it made him feel when she buried herself into him.

I think he felt emotionally lonely (BPDx) in his marriage and here was this child unafraid to be emotionally dependent on him.

I just kinda let it hang there in the air. I already talk too much   and if nothing else, I'm learning to let people have their feelings.

SO wants to be needed.
D19 is needy.

Bam.

Case solved.  

[heartandwhole]

Wow, that does sound like a breakthrough, LnL.   

How do you feel?

[livednlearned]

I feel empathy.

It's like the puzzle is solved. I guess I knew intellectually that he was getting something out of the needed/neediness.

Now I have empathy for the feelings that hold that relationship in its status quo.

SO would agree with what I was saying about D19 and her neediness and then not much would change. Now I have a better idea what's so hard for him to let go.

More important is that he recognizes this.

I haven't tried to help him connect the dots.