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Author Topic: Revelations, realizations and insights... PART 2/ My Search for Meaning  (Read 754 times)
Harri
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« on: February 18, 2017, 01:28:43 PM »

Hi.  Continuing a thread started back in November 2016.  Original thread is here for anyone interested: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=301481.0;all 

A very belated thank you to everyone who posted and was vulnerable in sharing their thoughts and experiences.  You all are having such a positive impact on my life and how I think, I don't really have the words... .yet here I am turning to you all for understanding and support and to challenge my beliefs and warped thoughts once again... .or maybe still.  I will warn you that I talk about suicide (No I am not going to harm myself) and am very negative for much of this post.  It is all real but some part of me is determined to work through this and find purpose and meaning.  So if you care to join me, I would really like some company.

So I ran/ took a hiatus/ whatever you want to call it after the thread was locked.  It was a combination of things including all the kind, accepting and supportive things people were saying to me.  I could actually feel the support from you all *and* the pain from the subject matter.  I was both relieved and disappointed when the thread was locked.  The subject seems too big at times and is so emotionally charged for me.  See, I am used to being very logical and almost stoic when talking about my past but progress in therapy has brought the emotions to the forefront and I can no longer separate my intellect, such as it is, from the emotional part of me.  Progress.  Healing.  It hurts.  I can't block it.

I rarely dissociate (numb out/ go blank) in therapy anymore unless my T says something positive to me or tries to show me a more positive interpretation of myself and my actions, etc.  My T is pushing this though.  Just a bit and it is upsetting to see that positive things are just as scary and elicit the same sort of response that abuse elicits.  It is pretty damn twisted.

Two weeks ago, at the end of the session, my T asked me if I had plans to harm myself.  See, I had missed two weeks of therapy; one because I had the plague (aka flu but that is not a fitting description for how truly awful I felt-- so I am calling it the plague!  meet the drama queen in me!   ) and then the following week he was not in (he had warned me ahead of time).  I missed him.  I missed going to my one truly safe place and meeting with my one safe person two weeks in a row.  I did not like seeing how dependent I have become on another person for my own stability.  So anyway, after a hesitation, I said No and then there was a long pause while I looked at the floor.  I remember taking a deep breath in and then lifting my head and saying No again.  I was able to say it truthfully the second time.  It was my promise to him.  He paused, nodded to me with a small smile, and I thanked him for the session and left.  It threw me.  While I have no immediate plans to harm myself, I have been thinking of taking care of things in the future... .but then I push it away time after time.  I don't want to die, but part of me does. 

*Please do not report this thread.  I am not going to do anything, my T is aware and we are working on it.  I am posting to get a better handle on this tho we have it covered*

So last week, I brought up his question at the start of our session.  I had to explain that I had not really lied to him but I had not been 100% honest either.  Gosh, I feel like such a loser writing this.  I explained I just have plans for the future in case things get worse, specifically with my physical health.  I also realized that a big change in my personal/social life has had an impact on me as well. 

Just before New Years eve, I invited a friend to move in with me.  I've known her for 16 years tho the last 5 she was living out of state.  Anyway, she fell on really tough times and was essentially homeless, sharing her sons rented room, bouncing between two friends and actually sleeping outside a couple of nights.  Having her here has been a breeze in many ways and she is helpful to me too so there is mutual benefit.  The thing is, having such close contact with someone just brings home how much more work I have to do.  As easy as she is, I find myself waiting for the worst to happen, analyzing every word and action she makes, feeling anxious that some of her poor choices (who am I to judge!) will have a serious impact on me, especially financially.  I took a risk with her, and I am glad for it, but I am struck by the anxiety and pettiness I see in me.  I get so annoyed with people here talking about red flags in others... .and here I am so aware of her red flags... .and then I slam up against my own belief that while red flags are important to notice, what truly matters is how I respond to them... .and here I am being neurotic about them and annoying myself with my red flag paranoia and negative judgement of another person who has a similar history!

So much work, so little time.  I am tired.

Seeing how anxious I am, how paranoid and frozen I become just with simple everyday things involving another makes me so aware of how deep the damage is and how much work I have left to do.  When I feel this way, I hold back, well aware that I am responsible for my own reactions and that most of my feelings are rooted in the past... .it just takes a great deal of energy to sit still and sort things through.  Again, I am tired.

Appropriate cliches that spring to mind:
It's a marathon not a sprint.    (Well, I hate getting all sweaty anyway)
It's a journey, not a destination and one with no time limit.   
Time heals all wounds    --- I call total BS on this one.  Time heals nothing. Time dulls.
Suck it up buttercup. (a personal favorite of mine)  Smiling (click to insert in post)
This too shall pass.  (quick, gimme a gun so I can shoot you) 

So part of me wonders what the hell am I fighting so hard for?  Seriously.  All of what I wrote above leads me to this:  I can find no meaning or purpose in doing this anymore.  I no longer have the spiritual belief that I chose this life and every event in it is to teach me something on a spiritual level.  Those beliefs are what has kept me going and given me the drive to wake up with excitement and wonder what I am going to learn this day and the next and so on.  Well, I don't believe those things anymore.  There is no purpose.  None of what happened to me was supposed to happen and what has happened to me has not enlightened me nor have I grown from it.  Instead, I am stunted emotionally, stuck between the past and a very questionable future in terms of quality of life both physically and emotionally.  I am tired.

I told my T I am having a hard time finding meaning and purpose in my life.  This is important, vital even.  I know the crap I wrote above is just that, crap.  But I see no meaning and I am floundering.  I know the meaning and purpose of life has to come from within me.  It has to be based on my values but I am not even sure what those are.  The one rule I consistently hold onto is ":)on't be a jerk".  Its a good rule, but it is hardly sufficient.

I don't have a loved one to keep going for nor a child.  I can no longer work so I get no sense of purpose or fulfillment from that.  I can't profess a great love for humanity, though I do care deeply.  Spiritually I am a bit of a mess right now.  I'm no longer convinced there is something greater out there and that fills me with a sense of meaninglessness. 

Yet there is still a part of me that is hanging on to a fine thread of hope... .I am just not sure what it is tied to. 

What keeps you grounded?  What is your value?  Your purpose?
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Panda39
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« Reply #1 on: February 18, 2017, 07:32:18 PM »

Hi Harri,

I'm sorry you are struggling but appreciate your updates I'm always curious to hear where you are on your journey.  I also appreciate you asking the questions below and enjoyed thinking about my answers.  I hope they help.

Excerpt
What keeps you grounded?  What is your value?  Your purpose?

What keeps me grounded... .

Learning new things
Pushing through fear to expand my horizons
Spending time with friends and my son
Better understanding of myself and my relationships... .growing emotionally/self improvement
Helping and caring for others (that want to help themselves)
Making things... .Art, quilts, crafts, Food... .
Growing things/nature/walks outdoors

What is my value... .

Is in how I take care of myself... .the example I set
Is in how I care for others... .give support but not enable
Is in taking responsibility... .walking the walk... .doing what I say I will... .owning what is mine
Is in loving well
Is in my sense of humor
Is in my willingness to listen

My Purpose... .

To make those people and things I come in contact with better in some way after knowing or coming in contact with me. To try and do no harm.


Panda39

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Kwamina
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« Reply #2 on: February 19, 2017, 06:09:52 AM »

A very belated thank you to everyone who posted and was vulnerable in sharing their thoughts and experiences.

Well, better late than never Harri! Smiling (click to insert in post)

So if you care to join me, I would really like some company.

I care so here I am, yes the Board Parrot is still around

I don't want to die, but part of me does.

What part of you feels like it does want to die? Are you referring to the situation with your physical health, or also to something else?

Your physical problems are a significant issue and I am very sorry you have to deal with them on top of all the other things you are dealing with. As you know, I have certain chronic health issues of my own and have struggled with them too. What makes it difficult is that living with my mother felt like being imprisoned, but these physical problems also felt like a prison because they limit me which also made it harder to 'escape' from the 'prison' my mother was holding me in. After moving out of my mother's house, the physical problems remain an issue, healing the emotional and spiritual wounds is already challenging enough, but on top of that also to be running into a wall of physical problems makes it even more difficult. It is what it is though and I try to remain in Parrot Mind and deal with everything to the best of my abilities. (Parrot Mind is a special form of Wise Mind with feathers)

I also realized that a big change in my personal/social life has had an impact on me as well.  
... .
So much work, so little time.  I am tired.

That is a big change indeed, having your friend live with you. This new living situation has shone a spotlight on some remaining issues or vulnerabilities you might have. I can see how this can be very uncomfortable, another way of looking at it is perhaps to see this as a new opportunity to grow and heal even more. The positive thing is now you actually have a support network, not only  bpdfamily but a therapist who based on what you've shared seems quite awesome. So much work and perhaps so little time, but as unsettling as this new reality might be, it can actually be a catalyst for further and accelerated growth. How do you feel about this?

I can find no meaning or purpose in doing this anymore.  I no longer have the spiritual belief that I chose this life and every event in it is to teach me something on a spiritual level.
... .
I told my T I am having a hard time finding meaning and purpose in my life.
... .
I don't have a loved one to keep going for nor a child.
... .
What keeps you grounded?  What is your value?  Your purpose?

"If I can stop one heart from breaking,
I shall not live in vain;
If I can ease one life the aching,
Or cool one pain,
Or help one fainting robin
Unto his nest again,
I shall not live in vain." -- Emiliy Dickinson


To find purpose and meaning it perhaps can help to look beyond our own lives:
"And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect."

You once posted to another member about how you sometimes can get a bit 'mother-hen-ish' when trying to help members on here. Spirituality is important to you and to relate this to the spiritual world, I can tell you that in many ways I actually look at you as a spiritual mother on the Coping & Healing Board. You have been very important to me and my own healing and as the Board Parrot always looking around here, I also know how important you've been for other members as well. The experiences you've had and all the painful lessons learned were perhaps not just or not specifically for you, but also for other people you would encounter in your life. By sharing your story and journey, you are also helping others heal. Just look at part 1 of this thread, it seemed like a big 'coming out', members and staff members left and right including me were sharing some of their experiences for the very first time. This indeed does not make it right what happened to you, nor does it make it right what happened to the other members. What it does hopefully do is make the pain and burden a little bit easier to bear as you now no longer have to carry it all alone. We might not be able to take all of our own pain away, but we can help others carry their burden so they won't get crushed by it. Your therapist is also helping you carry your burden and quite possibly also helping you lay some of your burden down. By taking in your friend you are helping her carry her burden and have made life a bit easier for her.

I remember when you first arrived at  bpdfamily. From the very start you were responding to other members, supporting and guiding them. Your love and care were very evident. Only after a few months did you for the first time on here really start to explore your own past and experiences. This sequence of events to me also says a lot about your character. You've been through a lot, yet when you came here the first thing you did was help other people.

I recently read a book inspired by the painting 'The Prodigal Son' which in its turn was inspired by the parable from the bible. In the book the author chronicles his own journey and first envisioned himself as the youngest son coming home to receive unconditional love from his father. However, at a certain point the author realized that he actually might resemble the oldest son more who had been doing all the right things all his life, yet felt like he never really got the love and appreciation he wanted and longed for. At the end of the story the author came to another realization. He realized that his life and life in general was not about receiving unconditional love and support, but his purpose was to become a source of unconditional love and support for others just like the father in the painting and parable. No matter how much pain you've been through yourself and are still going through, you being 'mother-hen-ish' when responding to members is what I consider becoming like the father from the story and being a source of unconditional love and support to help heal and guide others

Take care

The Board Parrot
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Oh, give me liberty! For even were paradise my prison, still I should long to leap the crystal walls.
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« Reply #3 on: February 19, 2017, 02:30:50 PM »

Dear Harri,


I am happy to hear from you. Sometimes I think of you and I was wondering how you had been. I was wondering if I should post something, but a day or so after that you opened this new thread.

I was too sad yesterday to respond. Like for Kwamina, your presence here means a lot to me.  There’s quite some wisdom in the things you are writing about yourself as well as in the advice you give other members, including myself. And the empathy in your advises is very obvious.   I am dealing with a lot of emotions too at the moment and upon reading your post I just got so incredibly sad. Why do parents treat their children so horribly sometimes. Why did you and all of those other children have to go through such things. I just don’t understand. I really don’t.

Well my sadness about it is probably not helping you, so I will *try* to say something useful.

All those emotions floating up in you is of course a sign of healing. But I guess you’ve figured that. Since you are someone who’s more of a thinker, probably partly as a coping mechanism also, this must be very unsettling. Even if the emotions were positive it would probably be hard and confusing.

But of course your emotions are not positive, they are extremely negative because you are now trying to make sense of your painful past….this makes everything so much worse. You probably have the feeling you are trying to swim in a sea of emotions. It makes very much sense to me that your intellect wants to take control of that uncontrollable sea. Your intellect tells you that “now maybe it’s not really necessary, not really, but well Harri, if it all becomes too much, all of those emotions; you can always just escape everything”. Does that sound like a possible explanation to you ?  Your poor brain was in control all of your life. That was your coping mechanism.  And at times it was a very good one ! But the old situation with your mum does not exist anymore. And you are finding better coping mechanisms now, for your new situation, with the help of your therapist. Your brain is trying to  regain control. It’s in alarm phase. It does not understand yet the new way you are handling things now. Give your poor brain some time, it will adjust.


  
Excerpt
I get so annoyed with people here talking about red flags in others... .and here I am so aware of her red flags... .and then I slam up against my own belief that while red flags are important to notice, what truly matters is how I respond to them... .and here I am being neurotic about them and annoying myself with my red flag paranoia and negative judgement of another person who has a similar history!

 Just to make sure I understood correctly. You don’t want to judge others because they have ‘red flag’ behaviors, is that it ?

For me it’s not only important how I respond to ‘red flags’. I try to avoid people who exhibit the behavior. Not because I want to be / am selfish, but because I think it’s a healthy approach. For years and years and even without realizing, I was a magnet to BPD.

BPD attract codependent partners. Healthy people, also nice, empathic people, don’t stick around. I really am convinced they don’t. When they see the first red flags, they go. We can help a friend, sure, but why insisting on helping others who don’t really want to be helped ?

I think it’s wonderful how you want to help other people. And I’m sure you have your reasons to say that there is mutual benefit of your friend living with you now.

But taking someone in our home goes pretty far. I’m not saying you should not do that, of course. I just mean, between discarding someone because of red flags (one extreme) and taking someone in (the other extreme) there’s probably a lot of other possibilities.

When we are trying to heal we don’t always want unhealthy behaviors around us. At least I don’t. And I notice the more I heal, the more I tend towards healthy people – or at least people who *want* to be healthy.
Does that make sense to you ? Or do you think I’m a little harsh now ?


I think your value ‘don’t be a jerk’ is one of the best values one can have. If this was everyone’s value, the world would be a better place.


What keeps me grounded …. Lately I have been thinking that my purpose in life maybe just is : leaving this world a little less messed up than I was. Hope that doesn’t sound too freaky.
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« Reply #4 on: February 19, 2017, 08:18:59 PM »

Hi Panda.  Thank you.  Your answers have helped in that they have given me a place to start.  From what I can tell many of your answers seem to focus on self-improvement and how that will allow us to help others (also echoed by Kwamina and Fie).  It is interesting to me as I have been hearing "do it (fight through) for you and who you want to be" in the back of my head but I was hesitant as I immediately told myself it was self serving and selfish when applying it to myself.  Once again, I believe I am not worthy.  For others though, it seems perfectly natural, healthy, noble even and it is something I can admire.  Noticing that discrepancy between my self value and that of others lets me know I am caught up in the mind fu*k of being special once again.  That pisses me off, but even more, it once again drives home how deep the damage is.  Rude awakening #1749    It is what it is right? 

Wonderful answers Panda.  Thank you.  You have helped me clear away some of the haze of despair that has been obscuring my vision.   

Excerpt
yes the Board Parrot is still around
That makes me happy.  Thank you.

Excerpt
What part of you feels like it does want to die? Are you referring to the situation with your physical health, or also to something else?
It is every part of me, physically, mentally emotionally.  The worst is the mental fatigue.  Everything has to be a fight.  Fight through the abuse, the despair, the physical pain and illnesses and treatments.  I want to run for real.  I can barely walk more than 20 feet without having to sit for a couple of minutes.  What the fu*k kind of life is that?  Add to that the financial stress of being on disability and the knowledge that that too is a red flag that tells other people to stay away from me.  I haven't even gotten to the emotional and sexual abuse that has resulted in my diagnosis of c-PTSD  Red flag/bad  (click to insert in post) major depression  Red flag/bad  (click to insert in post) and binge eating disorder  Red flag/bad  (click to insert in post) .  Then I read posts here that outline red flags like:  bad relationship with family, few/no friends, anxious behavior,  not liking going out, bad in crowds... . 

So no fie, I do not want to judge someone with red flags as I have so many of my own.  It is not about the baggage one has it is how one carries it... .and I am not carrying it well.  I am all lopsided and off balance.  As messed up as my friend is, she can deal with her emotions.  She has friends and she has family who care about her.  No, they could not let her move in but they did bring her clothes, food, send her money.  I have no one who would do that for me.  Not one person. 

In a T session, it became quite clear to me that my definition of being healthy is having friends.  My first T session I said I just wanted to get to the point where I had a friend I could sit with on the couch and watch TV with.  Nothing grand.  It seems unobtainable.  To have someone here who wants to be with me.

I know we are all damaged here to one extent or another and it hurts.  What really hurts?  There are people here who have similar histories who have friends.  They are healthy enough to have relationships, kids even!  Hell, even if the relationship breaks up, they had one.  My one relationship was a freaking sham with a guy who wanted weird crap from me and I was too damn dumb to know it.  I read about the BPDs here, some whose spouses tried so hard to make it work and who love them despite doing horrible things and I wonder what the fu*k is wrong with me?  They have done things I can't even conceive of doing and yet someone loves/loved them.  I don't even want a husband... .just a friend who accepts me, who sees beyond the red flags and does not not-so-secretly-mock me or who is not scared to let me watch their kid because they know my history, and not even all of it, but enough that they do not trust me.  My so called friend, call her Chris, who I have known for 17 years and thought I could trust is the one who did that to me.  And of course I was so messed up that I thought I deserved it and I was lucky to have someone like her.  I thought I was blessed to finally have a friend.  Fu*k. That.

It is all self pity.  all of it.  I am so raw and hurt and angry and so freaking tired.  so yes, when someone says something nice and positive about me it hurts.  I do not trust it.  I do not like it.  It makes me angry.  I actually feel resentment.  I have to fight through all that just to be able to say thank you. 

I know why.  Being praised, being deemed good, smart, charming or pretty guaranteed my mother touching me, arousing me and kissing me.  It could happen other times, but was just about guaranteed when positive stuff happened or was said. 

Have a relationship with someone with all that?  Where to begin with the explanations?  What to disclose?  I can just imagine telling someone that my first sexual partner was my mother!  Total conversation killer and pretty much guaranteed to drive people away.  Tell them too soon and they run, wait too long and they feel bamboozled and trapped.  Misread the person and the next thing you know your most private and shameful secret is being passed around and laughed at or is used as a reminder to stay away and who can blame them.  I understand.  So I say nothing.

So I am to fight through for what?  What purpose?  I want to learn to be able to be in the presence of others.  I want to reach the point where my past does not dominate so much of my present.

It is too big. 

I can't tell if this is self pity or truth.  My brain is saying it is a horrible display of poor me.  I can't really tell from here. 

Fie, I think you are right that my brain is looking at ending my life as a way to deal with the new too intense emotions.  You hit it.  I don't know how to work through this. 

Where is dissociation when I need it? 

Many thanks to Kwamina, Fie and Panda and much love to you all.  Sorry for the emotional puking.  I don't know who to express this crap without self-pity.  I will figure this out if only because I can't stand this poor me crap.  I may not know what kind of person I do want to be but I know for sure this is not a part of it. 

It is what it is. 
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Harri
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« Reply #5 on: February 19, 2017, 09:29:05 PM »

Good Lordie!  Fie, I was so wrapped up in my own misery and self pity I lost sight of you.  I am sorry.  I am also sorry that you are struggling and that reading my post added to your sadness.  What is going on with you?  What made you so sad?  Share if you want.  Feel free to post or even PM me.  anytime.  
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« Reply #6 on: February 19, 2017, 10:21:21 PM »

Quote from: Harri
Once again, I believe I am not worthy.

As John MacLaine said in Die Hard, "welcome to the party pal." But then you've been here long enough to know this... .is it love for which you don't feel worthy?

I'm not going to glad handle you by saying that the support here as well as being brave enough to share of yourself like inspires so many people here.  Oops, I guess I just did  Smiling (click to insert in post) But like the others,  I'm sincere.  

I see,  despite you struggling with yourself,  that your strength is love.  Yes, love. Despite being horribly abused,  you still have that spark within you to love others. It does speak to your character, the core love that your parents didn't destroy.  That's Herculean strength in the Wolf Book. (Yes, I have a book)
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« Reply #7 on: February 20, 2017, 01:36:36 AM »

Rude awakening #1749    It is what it is right?

Well it could have been worse, could have been # 1750!  Just thought I'd start out with some parrot humor before I entered full Analytic Parrot mode again. So here I go:

Add to that the financial stress of being on disability and the knowledge that that too is a red flag that tells other people to stay away from me.

Why do you believe that being on disability and having financial stress as a result of it, is a red flag that tells others to stay away from you?

If you would encounter another person with your exact same disability, would you then also consider this to be a red flag?

You did not choose to have this disability, this was out of your control. Or do you deep inside perhaps believe that this actually is something that was caused by you? Do you perhaps blame yourself for having this disability and if you do, where do you believe that thinking comes from?

 I haven't even gotten to the emotional and sexual abuse that has resulted in my diagnosis of c-PTSD  Red flag/bad  (click to insert in post) major depression  Red flag/bad  (click to insert in post) and binge eating disorder  Red flag/bad  (click to insert in post) .

What you describe here are consequences of the abuse you suffered. They are signs that something happened to you and you are now working on healing yourself and managing all those difficult thoughts and emotions. I think that's probably not only a more comppasionate but also a more accurate view. I hope you in time will also be able to look at yourself with a bit more self-compassion

Then I read posts here that outline red flags like:  bad relationship with family, few/no friends, anxious behavior,  not liking going out, bad in crowds... .

I think the bad relationship with family as you classify it, is a direct result of the way your parents treated you. Your parents destroyed the possibility for a loving family dynamic, that's on them and not on you. This is also true for me. In fact all those other points you list are also true for me, few to no friends, struggles with anxiety... .I also don't like going out that much and don't feel very comfortable in a crowd. Red flags maybe... .but it's only part of my story because I'm also the Board Parrot. And it's also only part of your story because you shown many more sides of you in your posts.

It is not about the baggage one has it is how one carries it... .and I am not carrying it well.  I am all lopsided and off balance.  As messed up as my friend is, she can deal with her emotions.  She has friends and she has family who care about her.  No, they could not let her move in but they did bring her clothes, food, send her money.  I have no one who would do that for me.  Not one person.  

In a T session, it became quite clear to me that my definition of being healthy is having friends.

I think what may be an issue here is the definition of what success is. I think you are measuring yourself by a certain standard that only takes certain aspects of you into account, namely the aspects that you feel are missing in your current life. Measuring yourself against that standard is like applying a mental filter to your entire life and/or playing the binocular trick by magnifying any deficiencies you believe to have. Can you see any distortions in your way of thinking here?

 My first T session I said I just wanted to get to the point where I had a friend I could sit with on the couch and watch TV with.  Nothing grand.  It seems unobtainable.  To have someone here who wants to be with me.

Not being alone and being accepted is definitely a wonderful feeling. Perhaps a first and perhaps even more important step would be to sit with yourself on the couch and try to be your own friend. The question would then be, do you like yourself when you are alone or do you feel you are only likeable when someone else is around who likes you?

I know we are all damaged here to one extent or another and it hurts.  What really hurts?  There are people here who have similar histories who have friends.  They are healthy enough to have relationships, kids even!

I can relate to the pain you describe here. It might help to consider what Pete Walker says about unfair/devaluing comparisons to others or to one’s most perfect moments: I refuse to compare myself unfavorably to others. I will not compare “my insides to their outsides”. I will not judge myself for not being at peak performance all the time. In a society that pressure us into acting happy all the time, I will not get down on myself for feeling bad."

Everyone is different and will deal with things differently. Also I think that superficially stories might look alike, however, we only see what people show us and as a result it is easy to compare our inside world to their outside world. We are basiclly comparing apples and oranges then or parrots and canaries

Having friends and having kids does not necessarily have to mean that people are healthy. Based on all the stories on here, I think it's fair to say that many people talk about unhealthy friendships and also worry about how their own issues might be affecting their children.

My so called friend, call her Chris, who I have known for 17 years and thought I could trust is the one who did that to me.  And of course I was so messed up that I thought I deserved it and I was lucky to have someone like her.  I thought I was blessed to finally have a friend.  Fu*k. That.

Yeah I remember that friend, you have posted about her before. Is this the same person that you have now invited to live with you or is it someone else?

Is this friend moving in a permanent situation or did you just invite her to stay a while to help her get on her feet again? What does your therapist say about having your friend living with you as you are processing all these difficult memories, thoughts and emotions?

I know why.  Being praised, being deemed good, smart, charming or pretty guaranteed my mother touching me, arousing me and kissing me.  It could happen other times, but was just about guaranteed when positive stuff happened or was said.

So the challenge now would be to find a way to separate feeling good about yourself in the present from what would happen to you in the past when you experienced positive feelings. It sounds like feeling good about yourself and/or being praised triggers old and difficult memories and emotions in you which in turn opens the door again to the inner critic. To again quote Pete Walker: "Emotional flashbacks are especially painful because the inner critic typically overlays them with toxic shame, inhibiting the individual from seeking comfort and support, isolating him in an overwhelming and humiliating sense of defectiveness."

Can you see this dynamic in what is going on with you when you are being praised in the present?

Have a relationship with someone with all that?  Where to begin with the explanations?  What to disclose? Total conversation killer and pretty much guaranteed to drive people away.

Perhaps another place you could start is building a true relationship with yourself. Trying to love and accept yourself, all of yourself. You are internally already having many conversations with yourself and it seems you are telling yourself some negative things. Do you think there are perhaps some other things you can tell yourself in that conversation? Or perhaps just stop telling yourself negative things about yourself? Positive things are a trigger for you, but perhaps just stopping saying negative things can already help you. How do you feel about this?

Misread the person and the next thing you know your most private and shameful secret is being passed around and laughed at or is used as a reminder to stay away and who can blame them.

Who can blame them? Well, I can. If anyone would do that, that person isn't behaving in a decent manner at all. They might not be bad people, but when people behave this way I would say they are definitely behaving badly and would be treating you badly.

"I turn shame back into blame and disgust, and externalize it to anyone who shames my normal feelings and foibles. As long as I am not hurting anyone, I refuse to be shamed for normal emotional responses like anger, sadness, fear and depression. I especially refuse to attack myself for how hard it is to completely eliminate the self-hate habit."

I want to learn to be able to be in the presence of others.  I want to reach the point where my past does not dominate so much of my present.

It is too big.  

I would advise you to start with trying to be in the presence of yourself first. What do you tell yourself when you are sitting alone on the couch watching tv? Do you perhaps feel that the company of another is needed to make you feel worthy?

The Analytic Parrot is still right here with you

PS. Yeah, I know I ask a lot of questions but you know that's just my style when I go into Analytic Parrot mode.
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« Reply #8 on: February 20, 2017, 02:43:51 AM »

About red flags.
When you (try to) look at the topic really objectively, and relate it to others, not to yourself. Then, would you say that if someone does not have a good relationship with his parents because they emotionally/physically abused their child is a red flag ?
Is having financial troubles a red flag ? A poor health ?

If you are really honest, wouldn’t you say that those are not red flags ?
Aren’t poor behaviors towards others the red flags ? We want to watch out for red flags because we don’t want to be treated badly by others. Especially for us, since we were already treated badly enough in our childhood. And because we know we were groomed to accept red flags – somehow we are drawn to them.
If someone is in a bad shape, both physically and mentally, has financial trouble, a bad relationship with his parents, no friends, etc., I don’t consider this the red flags. Those *could be* indications that I have to watch out not to be treated badly by this person, who might not have awareness about his emotional life. (and face it, most people don’t. Most people just live their lives without ever questioning anything they think or feel – regardless of having had a lovely childhood, or a bad one).
The real red flag is when a person would start treating me bad.

What do you think ?


About not having friends (except for us, then !), please take a look at this :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6sC4GK93_4&t=4s


For what it’s worth, I would without any hesitation leave my daughter alone with you. If I am completely honest I would trust you more than the average person, you seem like a very caring woman who would have the best interest of my child at heart.

Excerpt
Excerpt
Misread the person and the next thing you know your most private and shameful secret is being passed around and laughed at or is used as a reminder to stay away and who can blame them.

Who can blame them? Well, I can. If anyone would do that, that person isn't behaving in a decent manner at all. They might not be bad people, but when people behave this way I would say they are definitely behaving badly and would be treating you badly.

I completely agree with Kwamina. Sharing things like that and even laughing about it is in no way decent behavior. I would never want to be involved with people who do that. Is it possible that this might happen less than you think, and it is more of something you fear *could* happen, than something that is actually real ? This seems so horrible to me I really wish you never will get involved with someone who would do that. Now, *that* would be a red flag for you !


Thank you for your caring message btw. I am truly sorry if I gave you the impression that I got sad because of your post. I am ok though.
I am working through a lot of emotions about my past with my therapist. I think I have an issue with seeing children who are unhappy or who I suspect to be unhappy. I think I am oversensitive because sometimes I see parents talk a bit too loudly to their children and I’m already thinking ‘poor child’. I know this is something I will need to get a grip on. Working on it.
And Harri, it’s ok to have your own thread. I so much appreciate you reaching out to me, but this thread is for you 
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« Reply #9 on: February 20, 2017, 06:57:40 AM »

Hi Panda.  Thank you.  Your answers have helped in that they have given me a place to start.  From what I can tell many of your answers seem to focus on self-improvement and how that will allow us to help others (also echoed by Kwamina and Fie).  It is interesting to me as I have been hearing "do it (fight through) for you and who you want to be" in the back of my head but I was hesitant as I immediately told myself it was self serving and selfish when applying it to myself.  Once again, I believe I am not worthy.  For others though, it seems perfectly natural, healthy, noble even and it is something I can admire.  Noticing that discrepancy between my self value and that of others lets me know I am caught up in the mind fu*k of being special once again.  That pisses me off, but even more, it once again drives home how deep the damage is.  Rude awakening #1749    It is what it is right? 

Wonderful answers Panda.  Thank you.  You have helped me clear away some of the haze of despair that has been obscuring my vision.   
That makes me happy.  Thank you.

Harri,

I wanted you to know that my answers today would not have been the same a few years back I too internalized a lot of messages received from my (not BPD but very critical) mother.  You were special and I was never good enough, two sides of the same coin... .not simply loved for who we actually were.

It took me a long time and some special people that I crossed paths with to finally realize that I was lovable, had value, and mattered just as much as anyone else.  It took a long time to get to the place where I can look at my mother and see the flawed person she is and let her critical comments and behaviors roll off.  It took a long time for me to realize that I will never be who she wants me to be but that doesn't make me a bad person.  The issues she has with me are her issues not mine.

I wish I could tell you what worked for me... .what got me to a healthier place about myself, but it was a million little things that are particular to me.  Your journey is yours and I'm glad it has passed through this site where you can pick up some of those little things that help you down your path.

Turkish just gave me one of those little nuggets... .

... .is it love for which you don't feel worthy?

Turkish this just smacked me right between the eyes, I always thought it was just my mother's love that I wasn't worthy of but it was love from anyone... .the sensitive, caring girl, took natural inclinations to the extreme and the caretaker emerged... .I was worthy of being loved if I took care of you... .loved for what I could do for you not loved simply for who I was  Wow. Explains a lot about my relationship history.

Thanks for that  Smiling (click to insert in post)

Panda39
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« Reply #10 on: March 04, 2017, 10:59:35 AM »

Hi Harri

How have you been these last 2 weeks?

So I ran/ took a hiatus/ whatever you want to call it... .

Not that I'm implying that you took a hiatus again of course  Healing and processing all these things takes time. Don't worry though, I won't say time heals all wounds  , what's really important for our healing is how we spend the time. You have been dealing with some very difficult thoughts and emotions and I hope you'll be able to navigate your way through them

The Board Parrot
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« Reply #11 on: March 05, 2017, 09:07:34 PM »

Hi Harri!

I'm late to the party because I had the flu too. Only feeling better the past few days after two long weeks. Even missed 6 days of work!

I have thoughts to share, but I need to do some wool gathering first to get them neatly carded and in order... .do you know how disorderly wool gathering can be?  Smiling (click to insert in post)

And a hug especially for you.   I would sit next to you on the couch and watch TV, and I'd even bring the popcorn. You are a kindred spirit.

 
Woolsie
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« Reply #12 on: March 06, 2017, 03:44:12 PM »

Hi.  Kwamina, I ran like a chicken   .  I had to back off as it was overwhelming for a bit.  I am doing, thank you for checking in.  We chickens need a poke sometimes.  I logged in a lot during my break as if to say I'm here and I'll be back as a promise to myself.

Before I get into my over-due reply, I do want to report that last week I was confronted with a medical situation and rather than ignore it and let it progress, I sought medical help.  So yeah, when my face was up against the glass, I chose to fight.  A week and a half out, all but fully recovered, and I still do not regret my choice.  Progress.

Turkish, you... .you... .turkey!      You see love?  In me?  Thank you.  That hurts. 
Excerpt
is it love for which you don't feel worthy?
Yes, I think so.  At least it is a big part of it.  Things are still shifting after the realization of what being deemed 'special' did to me.  I have to stop and remind myself that I am not worth less than anyone else.  Telling myself I am not special is quite liberating but scary too.  What scares me the most is love.  I am not sure what it looks like or if I have a healthy idea of how to express it.  I've also come to realize that what I have seen as indifference and a lack of compassion in myself are even more falsehoods, this time born from my coping strategies of shutting down.  It comes across as cold and uncaring to others because it is.  Some people who know me from a distance will tell me I am harsh, cold, one even said heartless.  I am none of those things deep down, but on the surface I can be seen that way very easily (new realization and new view of me).  I understand now the disconnect between what I feel deep inside vs what some people see on the outside.  A necessary defense at one time, but not anymore.  It is time to let go. 

So yeah, ummm... .I got distracted.  Love.  Am I worthy of love?  Logically I would have to say yes as I am no different than anyone else and I can no longer have a double/lower standard for myself.  I am not certain though that I am loveable at this point.  Nope, not fishing, just thinking out loud.  Emotionally, do I feel worthy of love?  No, but I can now admit that I want to be loved. Assuming I am loveable (cuz I am no different than anyone else right?) I want to allow someone to be genuine with me and not stifle who they are or what they feel because of my fear.  My fear not only shuts me down, but it shuts others down and out. 

Yikes, this worthy of love business got away from me.  More thinking and feeling needed here.  Definitely more work too.  So you think love is my strength?  Funny, just thinking about love in me brings me to my knees.  Hardly a place of strength.

Okay, I am ending this here for now.  I will respond to the rest of the comments and answer the questions asked.  Just need some time.

Thank you.
 
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« Reply #13 on: March 08, 2017, 07:56:56 PM »

I do want to report that last week I was confronted with a medical situation and rather than ignore it and let it progress, I sought medical help.  So yeah, when my face was up against the glass, I chose to fight.  A week and a half out, all but fully recovered, and I still do not regret my choice.  Progress.

I am glad you chose to get help for your medical situation. I also don't regret your choice to keep fighting Smiling (click to insert in post)

I logged in a lot during my break as if to say I'm here and I'll be back as a promise to myself.

I noticed! Smiling (click to insert in post) Not that I'm following you around here of course, but as Board Parrot I too have some mother-hen-ish tendencies
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« Reply #14 on: March 09, 2017, 05:09:10 AM »

Excerpt
I noticed! grin Not that I'm following you around here of course, but as Board Parrot I too have some mother-hen-ish tendencies wink

I must admit, I did the same. Also not following you around, but I needed some reassurance ;-)
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« Reply #15 on: March 12, 2017, 02:28:33 PM »

Okay, well, I let this get away from me... .not quite deliberately, but I knew I was avoiding.  I did not mean to worry anyone and hoped logging in would help that.  I can relate to the fretting after posts like this.

Kwamina, thank you for the centering and on target questions.  They act as a beacon when I am in the storm of an emotional flashback, not that I actually recognized my state at the time.  I am slowly coming out of it and recognizing that while I thought I was good at dealing with the 'smaller' flashbacks, I either am not dealing with them well enough and letting them build or I need to do a lot more work on recognizing them and the warped thoughts and distortions.

I still have suicide as a hopefully far in future back-up plan in my head.  I can see that it has been a part of my thinking for a very long time, so I imagine like all the other stuff, it will take a bit of time to unravel.  We, my T and I, are still working on it.  I am hopeful.  I am also getting closer to understanding, emotionally, that my worth and the meaning I attribute to my life is for me to decide.  I was basing value and purpose on externals as if looking for recognition in a way.  Not accolades, but perhaps external validation, which seems separate from value and meaning.  Funny, I thought I beat the quest for validation, but it is a sneaky and slippery little guy to deal with!  I am not sure where hope that another will see and embrace who I am of their own will crosses over into an unhealthy reliance on external validation but I think there is a line there and that I have been crossing it.  Kwamina, your questions and comments about learning to sit with myself and be friends with me helped me to realize that I was trying to speed through this and was missing a couple of steps.  Thank you.

Kwamina, your kind words to me and sharing how you see my presence on this board in your first response feels uncomfortable but also good too.  The feeling good part is what I wrestled with, but I think you knew that would happen!  So anyway, I ignored that part and avoided... .but I find that I have been invaded by a parrot and can't quite get him out of my head, dammit.  Thank you.  Thank you for sharing yourself here and opening up with me.

Excerpt
What makes it difficult is that living with my mother felt like being imprisoned, but these physical problems also felt like a prison because they limit me which also made it harder to 'escape' from the 'prison' my mother was holding me in.
Yes.  It does feel like a prison.  I feel trapped am limited just like you said.  When I let myself feel all that, and it is rare that I do, I can also feel resentment, at whom I am unsure.  My father who gave me the genetic disease?  God who allowed it?  The surgeon who botched a surgery and changed my life?  Fate in general?  My mother who is at the root of almost all the other things? Probably all of the above.  Regardless, resenting all of this gets me no where good.  It is like putting up a battle flag and looking for war.  I can't seem to radically accept my illnesses without stuffing my feelings... and that is not RA now is it?  That is me blowing rainbows and glitter around.   Thought  Thanks.  So, what to do with resentment other than acknowledge it, sit with it and release it?  What do you do Board Parrot?  Anyone?

Kwamina and Fie, you both had comments, questions and concerns regarding my friend moving in with me.  I knew what most of the issues were prior to her moving in so nothing is really a surprise.  Like I said, I have been triggered (hate that term cuz I feel like a victim but can't think of another right now).  As difficult as it is, it is a huge benefit to me to see my thinking and behaviors in daily real life situations rather than trying to remember them from the past or the rare social interaction I had before having a roommate.  She also helps by doing the shopping, the heavy cleaning and errands for me as partial payment, all of which I either have to pay others to do which I can't afford or do on my own which is not always possible.  She does pay me some money now that she is working which helps a bit with expenses.  We are making it work.  Those are all big positives for me.  She is easy to talk with and we have solved a few issues without problems.

BTW, this is not my 'friend' Chris who I have posted about before.  I would never have Chris move in with me.  My roommates red flags look horrible on paper but she handles her own emotions without projections, put-downs, smirks, etc.  

There was an incident with Roomie after I came home from the hospital that has given me a lot of insight and gives me lots to work on in terms of acceptance and internal boundaries.  I had been in the hospital for several days.  A different friend took me home as Roomie was working.  She got home  a couple hours after me and proceeded to tell me all about work issues, her aches and pains, how her days were, etc.  It was about a half hour convo.  I then found myself saying to her "So, Roomie, did you know I was in the hospital for several days?  Would you like to hear how things went?"  

Okay, now that is totally new behavior for me.  I am not sure it was the right thing to ask or say what i was trying to say, but the fact that I did not just sit there and be invisible and then feel bad and wonder what's wrong with me that I do not matter enough to ask about like I used to do, I was shocked to hear myself speak up saying "hey, I am here and I matter too".  Total shock.  Talked with my T and he was happy I spoke up and we talked about how I let people like Roomie into my life but in the past kept trying to get them to see me even though they were incapable of doing that... .and then i would keep banging my head against a brick wall.  With Roomie, I broke the pattern.  She can't see me in some areas and I know not to expect it from her.  Now if this were a different kind of relationship, I would change things, but it is fine in a friend and a roommate who is otherwise pleasant and easy to be around.

So I can see benefits from the work I am doing here and in therapy and by watching and learning as I interact with Roomie.  

Fie, I understand your concern and desire to be around healthy people.  Maybe in the future that will work.  I think, for me, at this point, if I were around someone healthy it would provide too many chances of putting myself down and comparing my insides to others outsides as Kwamina so aptly pointed out.  That is some thing I need to work on too though.

Okay, will be posting a part two... .right after I write it that is!
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« Reply #16 on: March 12, 2017, 05:10:24 PM »

Excerpt
Why do you believe that being on disability and having financial stress as a result of it, is a red flag that tells others to stay away from you?
Good question.  So when I dug around I found that having a job with a good salary was a big part of how I defined me.  Being self-sufficient meant freedom, more of my "I don't need anybody, I can do this on my own" thing. 

You also asked if I blame myself for having this disability.  Well, I discovered I do.  I think the fact that I have so many health issues is directly tied to bottling up emotions like anger, sadness, etc. and I have been running from dealing with them for a long time.  So yes the degree of my issues, is I believe, at least  partly my responsibility.  Warped thoughts?  I am not sure.  When I was in my early teens in the fantasy world I had in my head I used to pretend that in my world I was sick and fighting through but people could see me and cared without smothering me or dishing out abusive love.  In that world, I wanted to be sick.  In that world, it was a way to be seen.  It worked for my mother, though she never got medical help, she got attention, love, became an even bigger presence... .and here I am decades later dealing with my fantasy in reality and still not being seen by some.  I have no idea how to talk about it either.  But yeah, I can see, hazily though, how twisted my thoughts are on this.  Not sure what to do or how to get to having more compassion for myself like you said.  I think it will come as I tear through even more of the 'special' facade.  Not sure what else to do to get there.  I did just realize that there is a disconnect in my thinking.  I want them to see me, but I do not want my illnesses to define me... .yet here I am defining myself by my illnesses.  Crikey!

Kwamina said:
Excerpt
What you describe here are consequences of the abuse you suffered
Okay.  Why does that apply to me and not the pwBPD we all talk about here?  I am sure you read the Detaching, Conflicted, Improving boards even more than I do... .red flag paranoia abounds from newbies and vets alike.

I can see where I am letting others define me, even indirectly, with their opinions about other peoples red flags.  I think too there may be a bias against people with red flags here on this site.  But I still get tripped up by all the hype.  It hurts.  I think it taps into too many of my fears that everything my mother taught me about myself is true and I am worthless.    So maybe I should treat this like all the other fears I have that stem from my past and simply recognize it, sit with it and feel it and then remind myself that those beliefs are from the past and I know they are lies.  My mother no longer gets to define me.  Is that a way to get to the place of self compassion on this?

Excerpt
I think you are measuring yourself by a certain standard that only takes certain aspects of you into account, namely the aspects that you feel are missing in your current life. Measuring yourself against that standard is like applying a mental filter to your entire life and/or playing the binocular trick by magnifying any deficiencies you believe to have. Can you see any distortions in your way of thinking here?
Yes, I can see the distortions and how I have pushed away the positive as a defense.  Thanks for calling me on this. 

I had a bit of a breakthrough on seeing the positive in me at my last session.  I attribute the progress to this thread and the responses and challenges you all gave me on my thinking.  While I ran from this thread, I did not stop working on things.  So anyway, I was able to say 1 positive thing and reframe 2 negative self-views into positive ones... .and then I dissociated for a bit.  LOL  But I did it.  Kwamina, I do try to stop the negative conversations in my head, but I needed the reminder.  It is hard when they are so automatic... .the beliefs tinge the words and set the tone... .it is not always an obviously negative thought or phrase.  Another reminder of how deep and broad the damage is.  I guess I have to respect that.

Excerpt
What do you tell yourself when you are sitting alone on the couch watching tv? Do you perhaps feel that the company of another is needed to make you feel worthy?
Hmmm... .I am mostly just aware of how often I am alone or how long it has been since someone called.  I am usually the one who has to reach out, or so it seems to me.  I don't really know how to have a friendship or how to retain friends.  Roomie was the one always reaching out to me which is why we stayed in touch.  If it had been up to me, my self loathing would have led me to assume that she did not want to be around me.  Interestingly, with Chris, I was the one to reach out to her, at least in the last 4 to 5 years (yes, it really does take that long for me to get a clue).  I haven't contacted her since late November (and just to notify of a death of a mutual friend) and prior to that it was back in July.  I think the difference is that with Chris, I was tied to her through the emotionally abusive dynamic (for both of us) and that was comfy for me so I kept going back.  It was never abusive in any way with Roomie... .hmmmm... .

Thank you very much Analytic/Board Parrot for joining me, pushing me and helping me.  You are making a difference in my life.

Fie, I agree with what you say about red flags.  I generally do not look at red flags in others the same way as a lot of people here do, but again, I have a negative view of me and a double, though negative, standard for myself.  I can see the warpiness!  Being 'special' strikes again!

Excerpt
Is it possible that this might happen less than you think, and it is more of something you fear *could* happen, than something that is actually real?
Well, no not really.  My mother did that to me all the time before I learned to keep my mouth shut.  Then it happened with several friends over the years.  In the last decade or so it happened with my ex (he had/has issues) and my friend Chris.  Just like when looking for validation or to be seen, I kept going back for more time and again with these people before learning to keep quiet and not talk about private things (though with my ex it was too late).  For me though, keeping things private meant actually shutting down and putting on a tough facade.  Each time it happened it is like a bit of my twinkle died off.  Hardening my exterior to remain unflinching to what I now see as betrayal.  Accepting that I was lucky to have people like those friends and my ex and Chris in my life and it was not in the cards for me to be treated the same way I treat others because I was, you guessed it, special.  I often say I have a bit of a martyr complex and a degree of arrogance that borders on hubris and this is a prime example.  Being special meant I could and should take this sort of behavior from them, that I could handle it but others could not.  As such, it was not my place to point out their flaws as it would hurt them too much and they would not be able to handle it.  yeah, really.  Hubris.

When I did say something to try to defend myself it came out wrong or they were so surprised to hear me speak up after basically allowing them to treat me like crap, that I would then be accused of being harsh, angry, attacking them (cuz look out, when I am angry my words can cause a lot of pain.  I am expert at that and do not give warning or hold back when in a 'fight'.  Add to that the fact that having any sign of anger was proof that I was evil... .add to that the fact that over the years I learned to be stoic and close off my emotions and basically learned to strip down my words to the barest most sharp and efficient when angry and hurt... .and it all added up to me being tough, harsh, difficult.  A couple of people said they felt attacked by me, allowing their emotions to define me... .  It was okay for them to treat me like crap, but not okay for me to defend myself.  Granted, my methods of defense were not exactly healthy or the smart choice but it all served to keep me the victim and keep me caught up in the illusion of my mothers definition of me.

I did not know how to control or stop that dynamic so I stuffed my hurt and anger, hiding it yet letting it build until even the smallest hurts or 'lesser' betrayal would elicit a response from me that was far greater than warranted.  This dynamic served many purposes for me including as a tool to push people away from me so I do not hurt them and they can't get close enough to hurt me.

Meet the ugly, defensive, rageful, mad as hell and not gonna take it any more Harri!  
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« Reply #17 on: March 12, 2017, 05:47:53 PM »

Hi Harri I'm tired so I apologise if Ive got the gist of things wrong. It sounds to me as if your not living for yourself but for others or their opinion of you. I can be like that. I used to be a lot worse until I discovered the word no. I used to get paranoid about what people thought of me and over analyse my every action.

Selfishness I have found to be very liberating. Doing what I want instead of putting others first was an alien concept but it gets easier. Ive found people to be less demanding now.
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« Reply #18 on: March 12, 2017, 07:19:44 PM »

Hi Panda

Excerpt
You were special and I was never good enough, two sides of the same coin... .not simply loved for who we actually were.
Yes, two sides of the same coin.  I always feel like I am being heard and understood when you post to me and I think this is why.  Thank you Panda.  Knowing that the negative can be overcome is a relief.  I think part of me does want this to be fixed with just a few major insights as it seems much more efficient LOL, but thanks for the reminder and the realization that it is the small stuff that will fine tune and make the big things even more significant.  So here's to fine tuning! <cheers!>

I too am glad that my path has brought me through here.  Posting has been a huge help both when I was not able to see a T and now that I am.  Thank you for being a part of that.

Woolsie!  Wow, six days out of work!  Glad you are feeling better.  No hurries on the wool gathering.  I would love to sit with you on the couch, watch a movie and eat popcorn.  It really is a dream of mine to do that.  Seems so simple on the surface.  In the meantime, keep with your wool gathering and sorting.  It is a lot of hard work and you are worthy and valuable (just read the thread you posted).   

enlightenme, hello!  You surprised me by relating this to healthy selfishness.  I can see the connection and I think it fits.  Healthy selfishness = self-care, valuing myself and my needs?  Interesting.  You are right that I look to externals as a gauge of my value, though like you, I have improved.  I still need a lot of work and reminders though. 

Excerpt
Doing what I want instead of putting others first was an alien concept but it gets easier.
Yes.  alien is an excellent word to use.  Of course it will take time and repetition before it becomes the new comfortable state.   Thought 

Thank for joining in enlightenme!  Now go get some rest!

PS, Fie, you get free kid sitting from me next time you are on the east coast of the US!
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« Reply #19 on: March 12, 2017, 07:53:23 PM »

Hi Harri I'm tired so I apologise if Ive got the gist of things wrong. It sounds to me as if your not living for yourself but for others or their opinion of you. I can be like that. I used to be a lot worse until I discovered the word no. I used to get paranoid about what people thought of me and over analyse my every action.

Selfishness I have found to be very liberating. Doing what I want instead of putting others first was an alien concept but it gets easier. Ive found people to be less demanding now.


I relate to this too.  Not with all people but with some people in my life. After years of being shut down by my mom when she disagreed with me, I worried about what people thought but worse yet particularly when it came to people that I saw as "in authority" (my boss is a good example) I lost my ability to ask for what I wanted or needed  My own inability to say no would build into resentment.  Part of what I learned is that my opinion does count... .does matter (because I matter) and then I learned from a friend how to be less blunt and more diplomatic in my approach when asking for what I want making me more comfortable asking.  I still have strategy sessions in my head on the best way to ask for something or decline (say no) something but I do act now instead of letting resentments build.

Panda39
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« Reply #20 on: March 13, 2017, 05:31:06 PM »

Hi all. To continue on the topic of selfishness I realised that I saw my exgfs selfish behaviour as awful. I now wonder if it wasn't jealousy on my behalf. Maybe I was jealous because she could say no and do what she wanted where I saw myself as the selfless one who always put others first.

Maybe its the co-dependant in me like many others here. That said even though others still see me as the go to guy if they need help they now realise that help is on my terms and if it fits into my plans. Its quite liberating and I can see why my ex behaved that way (although she took it to the extreme). Next time someone asks a favour try saying no and instead of going out of your way to help them do something you want to do.

I'm not advocating being totally selfish but am advocating enforcing a boundary and putting yourself first from time to time.
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« Reply #21 on: March 18, 2017, 02:15:46 PM »

Kwamina, your kind words to me and sharing how you see my presence on this board in your first response feels uncomfortable but also good too.  The feeling good part is what I wrestled with, but I think you knew that would happen!
  So anyway, I ignored that part and avoided... .but I find that I have been invaded by a parrot and can't quite get him out of my head, dammit.

Nope, I had absolutely no idea that would happen... .ok the thought might have crossed my mind Smiling (click to insert in post) An inner parrot voice is probably more pleasant than an inner critic anyway Smiling (click to insert in post)

So, what to do with resentment other than acknowledge it, sit with it and release it?  What do you do Board Parrot?  Anyone?

I think you already mention the best strategy here. Acknowledge it, sit with it and let yourself truly experience your feelings and then let go of them. And then repeat this process over and over again whenever necessary. It is hard and something that requires continual work for me and I too am still trying to come to terms with this. That's why I like what Dr. Marsha Linehan says about radical acceptance, she is honest and says that reality acceptance of painful things is very hard, it has been hard for her and is hard for nearly everyone she knows. Yet if we keep practicing these skills, she does believe we will get better at them.

BTW, this is not my 'friend' Chris who I have posted about before.  I would never have Chris move in with me.

I am very glad this roommate is not your 'friend' Chris.

Talked with my T and he was happy I spoke up and we talked about how I let people like Roomie into my life but in the past kept trying to get them to see me even though they were incapable of doing that... .and then i would keep banging my head against a brick wall.

Do you perhaps feel that you deliberately sought out people who were not able to see you so you could in a way recreate the dynamics you always experienced with your parents? Did you perhaps hope before that if you were able to get them to really see you, that this in some way would be like finally having your parents truly see you? Or perhaps like proving your parents wrong because these new people actually were able to see you?
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« Reply #22 on: March 26, 2017, 06:12:18 PM »

Hi.  I am not avoiding or running from this thread this time, I promise.  Been hospitalized 2x since my last post and now home on IV antibiotics.  Just not feeling well.  Hope to be back to post at end of this week.  Will continue to log in and read tho and will be thinking of you all as always.
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« Reply #23 on: March 26, 2017, 06:39:15 PM »

Feel better 



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« Reply #24 on: March 27, 2017, 12:31:18 AM »

Hi Harri,

Thanks for the update. Sorry to hear you were hospitalized again though. I too hope you will feel better soon
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« Reply #25 on: March 27, 2017, 02:18:30 AM »

Hello Harri,

How frustrating for you 
Thanks for letting us know and thanks for logging in. You are a sweetheart.
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« Reply #26 on: April 07, 2017, 09:36:22 PM »

Hi.  Thanks for the get well wishes.  I'm finally off IV antibiotics and no longer have my PICC line in!  <does happy dance>

Hi Kwamina.  Ok, so I sit with my resentment with no judgement and let go.  I find resentment very tricky to deal with, even more so than anger.  I can often, but not always, use my anger to motivate me or do something constructive.  Resentment is like a pit of thick sticky glue.  I find it hard to even see it sometimes, I just feel like I am being dragged down and drowning in it sometimes.  That feeling does not last for long but I think that is because I push it away so much.  <sighs>  :)o you find it to be an especially hard emotion to deal with?

Yes, I think I unconsciously sought out people who can't see me and recreated the dynamics with my parents.  It was all I Knew for such a long time.  I keep reminding myself that I was enmeshed and still being abused into my late thirties before finally moving out of my parents house.  I then had to learn how to just Be without them.  So I am giving myself some slack in terms of how old I am and the fact that there is so much I do not know and have never experienced... .and that is what I resent the most.  The choices I made... . So yeah, having people in my life who can't see me and are incapable of looking at their own self was comfortable.  Not any more though.  I have turned a point where I can now see that maybe I have been surrounding myself and listening to the wrong people.  I had a huge part in this though by just going by gut instinct which in my case had me acting in unhealthy ways and subconsciously asking to be treated that way... .and then getting angry and hurt when they gave me what I wanted.  Blurrrghhhhh!

I have been able to really see this play out in terms of interacting with Roomie.  The difference is that I can see what is going on and I do not keep setting myself up for hurt and failure.  I've been able to talk about this a lot with my T.  Roomie is a light version of my mother (the plus is that, unlike my mother, she never tries to crawl into bed with me!  haha)  I practice internal boundaries, work through some triggers and identify areas I need to work on more and I get frequent lessons in radical acceptance.  Call me crazy, but I see this living arrangement as a plus.  Granted, I did not realize what I was doing back at the end of December when I invited her to move in, but I still do not regret my decision.

Hi enlightenme!
Excerpt
I now wonder if it wasn't jealousy on my behalf. Maybe I was jealous because she could say no and do what she wanted where I saw myself as the selfless one who always put others first.
I can relate.  For me there is a sense of wonder at the other persons self-confidence and self-worth mixed in with envy.  Working on the 'being seen' issue or selfishness (I am seeing them as being the same issue... .not sure you would agree though) has been humbling.  I realized that I was helping others and giving myself in a desperate desire to have the same returned.  When it was returned, and a few people did try, I did not notice because I was either too busy trying to push people away so i did not hurt them or trying to get other people who are incapable of seeing me give me what they could not.  

I am learning though and have put myself and my needs first several times without guilt or calling myself selfish.  The interesting part is that is is mostly automatic.  More progress?  My T thinks so.

On the suicide front... .I am mostly off thinking about that as an option.  I still need more work there though. There is a lot of despair and resentment when I think of all the damage from my mother, father, my own choices, various events where I have retreated and withdrawn from life.  Radical acceptance... .yeah.

I also realized that my search for meaning and value will become more clear when I start believing that I am worthy just because I am.  I think I am getting there.
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« Reply #27 on: April 08, 2017, 04:35:30 AM »

Hi Harri

Glad to hear the suicide option is getting less appealing. I went through thoughts of dying but not so much suicide. More if I was killed in an accident everyone would be better off. I now think how ridiculous that was. My life is fairly mundane now but it is the happiest and most relaxed I have been in years. My jobs hard physically but theres no responsibility as such so no stress there. My biggest drama is what to cook my boys that they will both eat. Both my uBPD exs don't even phase me even with the prospect of my ex wife taking me back to court I'm not stressed.

Don't push things. Take time and find your comfortable place. once you have life seems to flow.
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« Reply #28 on: April 13, 2017, 01:26:27 AM »

I find resentment very tricky to deal with, even more so than anger
... .
Do you find it to be an especially hard emotion to deal with?

I definitely find it hard. I also find myself resenting the fact that am in a situation in which I am having to deal with such dififcult emotions. This of course only leads to more resentment. For me resentment is very much related to radical acceptance, or to be more precise non-acceptance of reality. What I have found helpful lately is what Dr. Marsha Linehan says about Turning the Mind. We need to notice when we are not accepting, then make an inner commit to radically accept and then repeat this process over and over again. Though the idea that we have to keep doing this isn't necassarily that appealing, I like the steps this approach offers to try and manage a deep pain that often feels and seems unmanagable. It is and remains hard, but like Dr. Marsha Linehan says, if we practice it will get easier. Our reality might not change, but applying the tools will become easier and our ability to refocus away from resentment, non-acceptance etc. and back towards radical acceptance will increase. My pain is still there, I am learning to better manage it, but it is still there.

Call me crazy, but I see this living arrangement as a plus.  Granted, I did not realize what I was doing back at the end of December when I invited her to move in, but I still do not regret my decision.

I would never call you crazy! I only say positive things that would make you uncomfortable so I'll call you smart instead Smiling (click to insert in post) I understand where you are coming from though. It's like when people are NC with their BPD familiy-members or living in another country. Not having to deal with them can also mean that your coping skills will become rusty or make it easier to forget or deny how much healing we have to do ourselves. Being exposed to your friend on a daily basis now requires you to really apply all that you've learned and is also a real test to see where you are in your healing.
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« Reply #29 on: April 22, 2017, 07:31:20 PM »

Hi enlightenme!  Thanks for the words of encouragement.  I am very happy you were able to get through the rough spots and have found a place of peace.  I also have the suicidal ideation but that has been present since I was a teen.  Like you said, it is different from what I was recently experiencing, but still difficult in terms of having the energy to keep up the motivation and fight to get better.  Thanks for sharing.

Kwamina!  Thanks, it is good to know I have support in my decision.  I think we may be in the minority in terms of looking at the situation with Roomie as a positive opportunity though.  BTW, I will forgive you for the compliment... .see, I am improving already!

This morning, I was having my coffee and Roomie came out, sighing and looking grumpy (she is not a morning person at all!).  I usually ignore her, though the sighing is annoying as hell (lots of memories attached to my father... .it is a whining sort of sigh).  So anyway, I could feel myself getting tense and angry and I rolled my eyes
(she did not see me thankfully).  My annoyance had nothing at all to do with her, but boy did I want to ask her to stop doing that (she does it frequently).  I caught myself though and reminded myself my reaction is mine to deal with and she really is not doing anything wrong.  I was taking it personally, almost like it was a cry for help just like it was when my father sighed or when my mother made it clear she was unhappy.  My anger faded, and my annoyance was reduced quite a bit.  Before I would not have caught myself and realized it was my issue and I would have said something non-productive and unsympathetic <*sighs!*>.  I am not sure I will ever be completely comfortable with someone who wears their emotions on their sleeve *all the time* like Roomie, but I don't have to let it affect me and I certainly don't have the right to make my 'trigger' someone else's problem.  She gets to be her even if I find it annoying and even though it 'triggers' me quite a bit.  Avoidance (or NC in the case of my family) would not allow me to see the problem and deal with it.  It is hard though and I really had to sit on my hands and keep my mouth tightly shut while my stomach turned and I started shaking.  Trigger management... .not fun but so worth it.

The above example is what I meant when I said earlier that I am disappointed with the pettiness I see in me and just how much work I have to do still.  It is the more subtle things like this that I find most frustrating. 

It seems there are so many layers to radical acceptance.  I reach a point of RA, then something happens, a shift occurs and I get a new view of the past and my history and then I have to start over again, not just with the healing but with the acceptance.  Yeah, it is hard, thanks for the reminder.  Right now I am in a place where I can accept that and I can accept that this will be a lifelong process.  Will I feel the same tomorrow?  I don't know... .but I guess that is the point.

Be well friends.
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