Was my Text Offensive

[dacoming]

All, my wife and I have been in constant dispute.  She feels, I've cheated on her, have cheated on her before, and I'm only "faithful as my options."  We have gone years and are now to the point where these accusations are tossed about daily, in front of and to the kids.  I have had ED issues for at least 10 years.  I've spoken to several doctors and psychiatrists and had physical tests done any they all say I'm physically fine; my problems are anxiety and relationship related.  She feels that masturbating too much over the years is the real reason for the problem and accuses me of making up excuses whenever I suggest otherwise.  So I've still been seeing a therapist for the anxiety and not discussing it with her.  I feel things go to the left every time I don't agree with her point of view so often I don't say anything.  In turn, my anxiety seems worse.  I'm to the point where I never approach her for sex because at this point (1) I've lost all confidence and self-esteem in my ability to perform and (2)if I approach her for sex and then lose my erection, it makes her feel bad and upset and makes me feel worse about myself.  At this point, my psychiatrist feels the only solution is for us to go to marriage counseling and try to fix our marriage, particularly our communication and trust issues. 

My wife woke me up yesterday to talk about her feelings about how things are going.  She had woke me up in the middle of the night and I had an erection.  I started to lose my erection a little as she started touching me, feeling anxious some and also sleepy because I was sleeping kind of hard.  She suggested we wait so I agreed and went back to sleep.  She told me she had a hard time sleeping after that because I've never passed up sex before and do not make moves on her any more for sex.  She feels I've changed a lot and have shown signs of doing something else.  She accused me of cheating, called me a cold lying dirty dude among other things and threatened to hurt me emotionally (likely be hooking up with other dudes).  I tried to explain to her how the whole ED thing makes me feel and why I don't feel comfortable discussing the matter with her.  She got even more mad at me not feeling I can open up to her while at the same time justifying my feelings by shooting me down and calling me a liar who doesn't face the truth about myself because I'm "ashamed at myself."  She tried to get me to admit to cheating by swearing on the Bible and my mother's life which I told her I was not going to no longer do.  I've done this multiple times and was still accused of being a liar.  Also, I've been trying to read the Bible more and it says not to swear against God or anyone else and let your Yes be Yes and No be No or be condemned.  She took that as admission of guilt.

This morning she sent me a text saying after what she found out yesterday, I no longer have to call to tell her where I'm going anymore... .that I can't be the man and husband I need to be and I show no remorse on top of that.  She said it's too bad that I feel the need to be that type of man because I think I'm getting away with stuff, especially seeing how she stood by me through ED, masturbation, lack of communication and other things.  She said this tells her what type of man I really am and I'm going to regret not appreciating that God blessed me with a loyal wife, good kids and a beautiful granddaughter who I took for granted.  She said God is going to bring me to my knees and my sex sin and adultery will be the death of me.  Here is my response:

"I truly have remorse for the times I’ve lied to you over the course of the marriage.  Lying and keeping things from your spouse is never right, no matter the reason for doing it.  It damages trust and causes severe problems in the marriage.  I also have remorse for shutting you out and not communicating all of the feelings I have bottled up regarding my ED.  This problem is affecting both of us and opening up might have helped things.  Masturbating and leaving you without was very insensitive to your feelings as well.  I maintain that I have never cheated on you or committed adultery in our marriage and never will.  I understand that you believe that and I’m sorry that I’ve made you feel that way.  I’m not sure what I can do to change those feelings within you but I’m willing to keep trying.  I will continue to inform you prior to me going to the gym, the store, lunch, etc as you stated that would make you more comfortable.  I cannot avoid the meetings or conference calls at work but I will tell you prior to.  I will open up more about my ED, my feelings, everything.  I Love you and our family and I apologize for taking you for granted."

She called me back raging that my text was insulting to her feelings and that I have no remorse for the pain I've caused her and minimize what I do.  I told her I was showing remorse but I guess since I would not "own up to" my cheating, I'm a no good dude who she is going to have to hurt emotionally because of how I am.  I tried to tell her I was showing remorse for the things I did but have never cheated on her.  I said she was reading the text the wrong way.  She said she can read it how she wants, called me the B word and hung up in my face.

Was the text offensive?

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[dacoming]

All, my wife and I have been in constant dispute.  She feels, I've cheated on her, have cheated on her before, and I'm only "faithful as my options."  We have gone years and are now to the point where these accusations are tossed about daily, in front of and to the kids.  I have had ED issues for at least 10 years.  I've spoken to several doctors and psychiatrists and had physical tests done any they all say I'm physically fine; my problems are anxiety and relationship related.  She feels that masturbating too much over the years is the real reason for the problem and accuses me of making up excuses whenever I suggest otherwise.  So I've still been seeing a therapist for the anxiety and not discussing it with her.  I feel things go to the left every time I don't agree with her point of view so often I don't say anything.  In turn, my anxiety seems worse.  I'm to the point where I never approach her for sex because at this point (1) I've lost all confidence and self-esteem in my ability to perform and (2)if I approach her for sex and then lose my erection, it makes her feel bad and upset and makes me feel worse about myself.  At this point, my psychiatrist feels the only solution is for us to go to marriage counseling and try to fix our marriage, particularly our communication and trust issues. 

My wife woke me up yesterday to talk about her feelings about how things are going.  She had woke me up in the middle of the night and I had an erection.  I started to lose my erection a little as she started touching me, feeling anxious some and also sleepy because I was sleeping kind of hard.  She suggested we wait so I agreed and went back to sleep.  She told me she had a hard time sleeping after that because I've never passed up sex before and do not make moves on her any more for sex.  She feels I've changed a lot and have shown signs of doing something else.  She accused me of cheating, called me a cold lying dirty dude among other things and threatened to hurt me emotionally (likely be hooking up with other dudes).  I tried to explain to her how the whole ED thing makes me feel and why I don't feel comfortable discussing the matter with her.  She got even more mad at me not feeling I can open up to her while at the same time justifying my feelings by shooting me down and calling me a liar who doesn't face the truth about myself because I'm "ashamed at myself."  She tried to get me to admit to cheating by swearing on the Bible and my mother's life which I told her I was not going to no longer do.  I've done this multiple times and was still accused of being a liar.  Also, I've been trying to read the Bible more and it says not to swear against God or anyone else and let your Yes be Yes and No be No or be condemned.  She took that as admission of guilt.

This morning she sent me a text saying after what she found out yesterday, I no longer have to call to tell her where I'm going anymore... .that I can't be the man and husband I need to be and I show no remorse on top of that.  She said it's too bad that I feel the need to be that type of man because I think I'm getting away with stuff, especially seeing how she stood by me through ED, masturbation, lack of communication and other things.  She said this tells her what type of man I really am and I'm going to regret not appreciating that God blessed me with a loyal wife, good kids and a beautiful granddaughter who I took for granted.  She said God is going to bring me to my knees and my sex sin and adultery will be the death of me.  Here is my response:

"I truly have remorse for the times I’ve lied to you over the course of the marriage.  Lying and keeping things from your spouse is never right, no matter the reason for doing it.  It damages trust and causes severe problems in the marriage.  I also have remorse for shutting you out and not communicating all of the feelings I have bottled up regarding my ED.  This problem is affecting both of us and opening up might have helped things.  Masturbating and leaving you without was very insensitive to your feelings as well.  I maintain that I have never cheated on you or committed adultery in our marriage and never will.  I understand that you believe that and I’m sorry that I’ve made you feel that way.  I’m not sure what I can do to change those feelings within you but I’m willing to keep trying.  I will continue to inform you prior to me going to the gym, the store, lunch, etc as you stated that would make you more comfortable.  I cannot avoid the meetings or conference calls at work but I will tell you prior to.  I will open up more about my ED, my feelings, everything.  I Love you and our family and I apologize for taking you for granted."

She called me back raging that my text was insulting to her feelings and that I have no remorse for the pain I've caused her and minimize what I do.  I told her I was showing remorse but I guess since I would not "own up to" my cheating, I'm a no good dude who she is going to have to hurt emotionally because of how I am.  I tried to tell her I was showing remorse for the things I did but have never cheated on her.  I said she was reading the text the wrong way.  She said she can read it how she wants, called me the B word and hung up in my face.

Was the text offensive?

[Wrongturn1]

I don't think you said anything that a reasonable spouse would find offensive in your text.  Here are my comments on the text (most of which are related to apologizing vs. not apologizing):

"I truly have remorse for the times I’ve lied to you over the course of the marriage.  Lying and keeping things from your spouse is never right, no matter the reason for doing it.  It damages trust and causes severe problems in the marriage. I also have remorse for shutting you out and not communicating all of the feelings I have bottled up regarding my ED. This problem is affecting both of us and opening up might have helped things."

Seems okay to apologize and take responsibility for the wrong things you have done.

"Masturbating and leaving you without was very insensitive to your feelings as well."

I'm not sure of the details here, but if your masturbating was to a point where it affected your ability to have sex with your wife when you both wanted to, that would be worthy of an apology.  If it didn't actually affect your ability to have a healthy sex life with your wife, I would not see any need to apologize.  If your wife treated you horribly to the point where you preferred masturbating instead of having sex with her, that would be her fault and not something for you to apologize about.

"I maintain that I have never cheated on you or committed adultery in our marriage and never will."

You're JADE-ing a bit here, but I think it's fine to get your truth out there.  This might be the part she found emotionally invalidating because it conflicts with her feelings that you've cheated.

"I understand that you believe that and I’m sorry that I’ve made you feel that way.  I’m not sure what I can do to change those feelings within you but I’m willing to keep trying."

This part was my least favorite of the whole text.  Never apologize that "you made her feel that way".  Her feelings are her own problem to deal with, and changing those feelings are not your responsibility.

"I will continue to inform you prior to me going to the gym, the store, lunch, etc as you stated that would make you more comfortable.  I cannot avoid the meetings or conference calls at work but I will tell you prior to."

If you have a chance to gracefully back out of this commitment, I would suggest doing that.  You're an adult, and there's no reason you should have to constantly check in to reassure her.  She'll likely accuse you of some kind of wrongdoing no matter what you do b/c that's caused by her dysfunction, not your actions.

"I will open up more about my ED, my feelings, everything.  I Love you and our family and I apologize for taking you for granted."

This part was okay I guess.  You opening up more is not likely to change anything b/c you're not the problem in the relationship.

Hang in there!  You sound like a kind and patient spouse who is doing all that anyone could do in your situation.

[formflier]

Was the text offensive?

Yes it was... .to her.  That is the only audience that matters.

It was also "ineffective"... .which matters to you.

I would stop discussing this at home.  Offer to discuss this types of things with a marriage counselor.

Seriously... .if you are digging a hole... and don't want to go deeper... stop digging.

FF

[Skip]

She isn't reacting to what you wrote... .

Imagine that you were married to a women who got nauseous every time you took your clothes off. She went to the doctor and he said nothing was wrong with her physically... .But she was having a wild party with herself when you weren't home.

The porn/masturbation thing is very hard on the partner. It's not just the sex... .its the flirting and the foreplay and the fantasy.

There is rejection implicit in what you two are going through. She certainly doesn't want to think it is her that is causing your "shrinkage" so she is looking for another reason. Surely a video screen can't be better than a real women... .

The flip side is that you feel immense performance pressure and that is a killer for the problem you are dealing with.

I'm not saying that any of this is fair (for either of you), but I think the problem is situational, serious, and in the events that led to the text exchange, not the exchange itself.

What do do? That is another discussion altogether.

Does this seem right?

PS: The note was very vulnerable and very honest. She didn't respect that or see it as a starting point. I think you missed the target - it was mostly about you and not her real issue. You both need to work on this more.

[Skip]

I'm not sure of the details here, but if you're masturbating was to a point where it affected your ability to and there are problems having sex with your wife when you both wanted to, that would be worthy of an apology.

This is the backstory, right?

[dacoming]

Yes it was... .to her.  That is the only audience that matters.

It was also "ineffective"... .which matters to you.

I would stop discussing this at home.  Offer to discuss this types of things with a marriage counselor.

Seriously... .if you are digging a hole... and don't want to go deeper... stop digging.

FF

I've suggested counseling several time; she refuses to go.  She says I'm a liar and all I'm going to do is go to the counselor and lie.  You know the definition of a lie... .anything that differs from how she sees things!  I don't feel we can fix anything without help so I'm about at the point where I'm asking myself... .should I just give up?

[formflier]

 
Then... .you go. 

The key is that you do NOT engage with her on these subjects outside of a MCs office.  Period.

Let her do... .react... .however she wants.

She will either eventually tire of it... .or get curious and show up.

After several no shows... .probably you can then give it up... .

Focus less on what she says and more on what she does... .

My wife has threatened to no show several times... .she shows up.

FF

[Lalathegreat]

Reading your text through the goggles of a non I see nothing offensive. Unfortunately FF is absolutely right. For whatever reason SHE thinks it was and in the context of this situation hers is the opinion that matters.

It is SO hard to approach emotionally charged subjects without triggering the BPD enchilada - I hope that you are able to seek the counsel of a therapist who can help.

[dacoming]

I'm not sure of the details here, but if your masturbating was to a point where it affected your ability to have sex with your wife when you both wanted to, that would be worthy of an apology.  If it didn't actually affect your ability to have a healthy sex life with your wife, I would not see any need to apologize.  If your wife treated you horribly to the point where you preferred masturbating instead of having sex with her, that would be her fault and not something for you to apologize about.

I've always masturbated some, even early on when things were going well and we used to have sex all the time.  I'm still "physically" attracted to her so that is not the problem.  I usually get an erection and lose it during intercourse when the anxiety kicks in. 

If you have a chance to gracefully back out of this commitment, I would suggest doing that.  You're an adult, and there's no reason you should have to constantly check in to reassure her.  She'll likely accuse you of some kind of wrongdoing no matter what you do b/c that's caused by her dysfunction, not your actions.

You are right, I've done this and loads of other things that she said "would make her more comfortable" but nothing lasts.  On top of that, she doesn't acknowledge anything I've tried to do for her.  She tells me almost daily about how I haven't made an effort to change any of the things she has issues with while she has changed several things.  Me just going to work makes her uncomfortable.  I don't do anything else.  It's like I'm in jail on a work release program.


Hang in there!  You sound like a kind and patient spouse who is doing all that anyone could do in your situation.

[dacoming]

She isn't reacting to what you wrote... .

Imagine that you were married to a women who got nauseous every time you took your clothes off. She went to the doctor and he said nothing was wrong with her physically... .But she was having a wild party with herself when you weren't home.

The porn/masturbation thing is very hard on the partner. It's not just the sex... .its the flirting and the foreplay and the fantasy.

There is rejection implicit in what you two are going through. She certainly doesn't want to think it is her that is causing your "shrinkage" so she is looking for another reason. Surely a video screen can't be better than a real women... .

The flip side is that you feel immense performance pressure and that is a killer for the problem you are dealing with.

I'm not saying that any of this is fair (for either of you), but I think the problem is situational, serious, and in the events that led to the text exchange, not the exchange itself.

What do do? That is another discussion altogether.

Does this seem right?

PS: The note was very vulnerable and very honest. She didn't respect that or see it as a starting point. I think you missed the target - it was mostly about you and not her real issue. You both need to work on this more.

How do you address the cheating thing appropriately when you are and have not cheated?  This is a DAILY thing and it works my nerves.  I try not to respond, she get's mad at that too.  She constantly attacks my character; however when I tell her how it bothers me, she does it even more by insulting my manhood as well.

[dacoming]

Reading your text through the goggles of a non I see nothing offensive. Unfortunately FF is absolutely right. For whatever reason SHE thinks it was and in the context of this situation hers is the opinion that matters.

It is SO hard to approach emotionally charged subjects without triggering the BPD enchilada - I hope that you are able to seek the counsel of a therapist who can help.

Thanks for your response.

[Grey Kitty]

First off, I think the text was honest, open, and vulnerable.

Second, I wouldn't expect it to improve your r/s with your wife at all. (And it didn't!)

She's long since proven that if you try to be vulnerable with her, she will take advantage of it and do something hurtful instead of supportive. Stop trying things that long experience tell you don't work well.

Back up a bit and look at the "problem" with your sex life. I see two stories here:

Your story (supported by your doctors and psychiatrists): You have ED due to anxiety and relationship stress. Your wife has been very abusive and hurtful toward you.

Your wife's story: You masturbate and cheat, causing all the problems in your sex life.
You didn't cheat; I believe you.
I don't see a problem with masturbating; It doesn't cause ED, that's for sure. If you choose that over sex with your wife, I could see it causing r/s problems... .but that doesn't sound like what you did either.

I don't believe your wife's story here. I don't think you really do, although you sound like you have some doubts. Here's my practical approach on what to do about it:


1. Don't stick around for the abuse. When she launches into you like this, remove yourself from it. Listening only makes your anxiety worse, and that is the source of the problem. (We have tools to help you get out of those situations if you need them.)

2. Don't JADE. Dont Justify-Argue-Defend-Explain with your wife. All these things are invalidating to her, which just winds her up more and makes the abuse worse!

You won't convince her that way anyhow--it hasn't worked for the last 10 years. It won't work in the next 10 years.

How do you address the cheating thing appropriately when you are and have not cheated?  This is a DAILY thing and it works my nerves.  I try not to respond, she get's mad at that too.  She constantly attacks my character; however when I tell her how it bothers me, she does it even more by insulting my manhood as well.

Simple, but NOT easy: When she mentions cheating (At least from the starting point that you DID cheat and ARE cheating, which aren't true), tell her you aren't discussing that with her, and end the conversation. Whatever you have to do to accomplish this. Say goodbye and hang up. Mute or block her texts. Walk out of the room. Leave the house if she follows you into the next room.

She's entitled to criticize you and rage all she wants to... .at the wall, but not when you are there. Remove yourself.

[Skip]

How do you address the cheating thing appropriately when you are and have not cheated?

You are chasing the wrong solution!

I don't know what the right solution is, but I might guess is that she wants an intimate relationship (not just sex), not apologies, and she really resents that you are having a relationship with yourself, by yourself.

When the relationship's romantic intimacy is gone, all parts from flirting to sexual innuendo, to intercourse, big problems follow.

I think it might help a lot to dump the self-servicing (that is making matters worse physically and relationship wise), and start romancing your wife, and looking for a solution together.

She was most likely upset about your note because it didn't offer solutions to her needs (the relationships needs) but rather, defended why things are the way they are.

Your note was sincere, deep, and cooperative. I'm sure your heart was in every word. It probably isn't the right message at this stage of the problem. The right message would most likely needs to be said in the moonlight with some Prosecco - not a text message.

Just thoughts... .speculation.

[Skip]

I don't see a problem with masturbating; It doesn't cause ED, that's for sure.

I see this mentioned a couple of times. As an alternative opinion, I think this is big problem.

1. It's a competing sexual environment in your relationship, not an adjunct environment.

2. Its creates a psychological problem in the relationship because the above.

[formflier]

I have had some success... .from time to time, with approaches like Skip proposed.

There is only one way to find out.  Give it a shot.  

I would commit yourself to "several shots", with the understanding in your mind that you will continue, regardless of her pushback... .accusations... .whatever.  I would suggest that you come up with a plan for a night... .event... .whatever for you to approach your wife.  Post it here and we can help tweak it.  

You need to be ready for it to go really well... .and you get seriously laid... .or it could be an epic trainwreck.  Focus on remaining calm and not engaging in accusations... .whatever the outcome.

   

Accusations used to be central to my relationship... .it was bad... .really bad.  I played a part in making it worse  Essentially, by "proving" my innocence I invalidated my wife, so the next accusation got bigger... .and bigger.

Once I stopped invalidating... .and stopped addressing the accusations, things slowly improved.

Secondary issue:  I would shy away from discussing your medical stuff with her anymore.  I used to be very open with my wife.   She would go to appointments with me.  There was an element of me trying to "prove" or "show" things to my wife in there.  "See honey... I really am disabled.  See honey... .I really do have a sleep problem... "

Taking back medical privacy took a lot of things to argue about off the table.

Literally... .I have been in a doctors office and listened to my wife argue with a doctor about what a certain drug did... or did not do.  The doc was incredibly patient.  

Thinking of it from an emotional point of view, try and empathize with your wife about how scary it is for her lover to have ED.  She gets it... .I doubt having a doctor explain it to her will help lessen her emotions.

The explanation is not the issue, it's her ability to regulate her emotions about the subject being explained.

FF

[Skip]

Accusations used to be central to my relationship... .it was bad... .really bad.  I played a part in making it worse  Essentially, by "proving" my innocence I invalidated my wife, so the next accusation got bigger... .and bigger.

Once I stopped invalidating... .and stopped addressing the accusations, things slowly improved.

Exactly. Address the problem, not the rhetoric.

[Grey Kitty]

I've spent some time reading sex advice columns, particularly Dan Savage's, and have a couple things to offer.

One way to address ED, especially psychological ED is to spend some time building confidence by having sex that doesn't require an erection. (I don't want to be graphic, but you have fingers, you have a tongue, and they work the same either way.)

If you try this, you might even get an erection part way through, but the recommendation is not to put pressure on by expecting you to do anything with it, at least at first.

Another thing Dan has suggested is that pot can be a helpful libido enhancer at times like this. I don't know if it is legal in your state or not.

If your wife still views this as rejection, lying, or failure on your part, she may continue to criticize you and berate you... .which really isn't sexy at all... .in fact it is the source of the problem.

None of this will help if your wife isn't willing, no, make that eager to try it.

[isilme]

The insecurity that seems tied to BPD is obsessed with cheating accusations... .geez.  H likes to imply all the time I've cheated (he actually is the one who did years back).  It hurts, but I just state he's wrong, he's my only partner ever, and refuse to listen to more. 

ED.  We are fighting this at the moment, too.  It's hurting H a lot to feel he can't do things even if he thinks he wants to.  I'm concerned in his case it's physiological (he's got a lot of nerve damage type issues going on at the moment).  I think it was healthy88, maybe hcmbart who recommended checking viatmin b12 intake.  Lots of people are deficient and it's hard to catch, and could assist.  I know in the OPs case it really sounds like he's reeling back from an abuser that causes the issues, and the abuser won't hear it, but maybe some b12 won't hurt to try out.  We are also trying alternate ways to be close that don't rely on that proud bit of flesh to cooperate.  If it does, great, if not, I try to make sure neither of us is frustrated.  But this is messing with his mind a lot, and drags him down even more into a depressed state, which in turn (IMO) makes it even worse.  Feedback loop

Regarding the text - continuing a conversation with an irrational person is beating a dead horse.  Why do it?  BPD is an emotional disability.  It can make a grown person act like a toddler, with a toddler's communication skills, a toddler's executive control, a toddler's selfish expectations of being the center o everything, and a toddler's fears of abandonment.  So you have grown up issues being tackled in a childish manner. 

Like everyone has said - disengage as needed.  You will never explain your feelings at this point.  You will never be able to use logic, or other opinions to support things.  Your W's emotions set the stage for her reality.  Nothing else.  If she's mad now, she's always been mad and always will be mad.  That's how it FEELS.  And tha'ts all she can make herself care about.  Empathy for you?  Not a strong point.  It's not impossible, and can get better with time, but really, takes a lot of time and new reactions from you to get to anything like that. 

[dacoming]

All, thanks for the great input!  I plan to take all of it into consideration and welcome any further input.  Yesterday when I got home as expected, the drama continued.  As usual, she decided to discuss the issues (minus ED, at least in front of me) in front of and directly to our girls.  She started getting insulting a little and placing blame so I disengaged but continued to sit there.  She asked me to complete and file divorce papers and stated she was done and basically told the girls that I am a drunk with declining mental capacity.  I told her I would get the papers done but did not comment on anything else.  Then she addressed the girls specifically... .telling them to take note of how heartless and emotionless I am and how I'm taking her through a bunch of stuff and not even fighting for the marriage and our family.  She told them to never stick around with someone like me who does that and went on and on.  At that point, I said good night to everyone, grabbed my pillows and went downstairs to sleep.  She followed to continue the "discussion" when I told her I was angry at the fact that she keeps involving the girls in our marital issues, which she replied that they hear everything anyway, etc etc.  She kept playing the blame game and talked about how she hung in there with me through all of my issues and she's never given me any problems or anything to worry about to which I replied I've hung in there too.  That triggered her because "I'm trying to make myself even with her" to where she went on a tirade, calling me the B word multiple times, coward, and other choice words.  She then threatened violence against me and promised to hurt me and bring me to my knees by hooking up with other guys and bringing them in our house, daring me to do anything about it.  This morning, in order to keep the peace, I apologized for minimizing her struggles and all she's stuck around to deal with.

Just another day in the household... .

[formflier]

This morning, in order to keep the peace, I apologized 

Please look at my post... .I "fed" a negative dynamic... .a "death spiral" that keep getting worse and worse, the more I fed it.  Yet... .in my mind "I was keeping things calm... "  "keeping the peace"... ."showing her love... .etc etc".

 

I'm got some things for you to consider.  Many of these are boundary type issues.  As such, they will be made MUCH worse if you don't "hold" the boundary when you attempt to set it.  Please be deliberate about NOT changing your r/s dynamic... until you can hold it.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=85479.0

I am so thankful that senior guys on here "got to me" and emphasized this point before I "put up" my first boundary.  I held... survived my first extinction burst... .and found hope again

That being said... .suggestions.

1.  Make a decision about the in front of the girls thing.  My suggestion is to send them to their rooms.  "Kids, your Mom and I have adult things to discuss.  Go to your rooms." 

I would decide a place in your house that you will "discuss things".  Not your bedroom. 

2.  "I'm going to grab us some ice water and go to the office where we can discuss this".  Make sure there is an exit plan... .hopefully several... .for when you need to put up further boundaries and leave abusive talk.

3.  Stop agreeing or acknowledging that you will take any action to end the marriage.  Honestly, others are better at this phrasing than me (hopefully they can add to this).  "I don't want to end our marriage."  Don't discuss further.  Perhaps you say... "You can end this marriage without me" (because she can)... .but this could be like waving a cape at a bull.

More later.

How does all this sound to you? 

FF

[dacoming]

  formflier 

The girls actually are grown.  Knowing this, am I wrong for feeling a certain kind of way because she involves them?  Almost every time we have an issue, she calls them in or makes comments to them like ":)ad doesn't want us around... .he's moving on with the new chick" or similar statements.  We can't have an issue without her saying something to involve the kids like it's them against me or something.

[Grey Kitty]

If your girls are grown, let it go; as adults, they can hear what two adults say, and make their own decision as to what they think about it. (They will anyways).

If they were minors, you have an obligation to protect them from this sort of stuff as a parent, but once they are adults, you don't.

Anyhow, when you sit and listen to your wife berating you for this or that without comment, you are making things worse.

First off, you are impacted by this stuff more than you care to admit. Protect yourself by leaving.

Second, you are harming your relationship--You are invalidating your wife. If she says something horrible to you and you don't react at all, you are treating her as if she doesn't exist, and that is invalidating. [NOTE: Arguing with her is also invalidating; it isn't better!]

Yesterday when I got home as expected, the drama continued.  As usual, she decided to discuss the issues (minus ED, at least in front of me) in front of and directly to our girls.  She started getting insulting a little and placing blame so I disengaged but continued to sit there.

This is the point I would have left the room. And if she followed leave the house.

That is a toxic situation. Don't participate in it.

[dacoming]

If your girls are grown, let it go; as adults, they can hear what two adults say, and make their own decision as to what they think about it. (They will anyways).

If they were minors, you have an obligation to protect them from this sort of stuff as a parent, but once they are adults, you don't.

Anyhow, when you sit and listen to your wife berating you for this or that without comment, you are making things worse.

First off, you are impacted by this stuff more than you care to admit. Protect yourself by leaving.

Second, you are harming your relationship--You are invalidating your wife. If she says something horrible to you and you don't react at all, you are treating her as if she doesn't exist, and that is invalidating. [NOTE: Arguing with her is also invalidating; it isn't better!]

This is the point I would have left the room. And if she followed leave the house.

That is a toxic situation. Don't participate in it.

I've left the house several times with the most recent being about a month ago.  She considers this a "deal breaker" and a definite disrespect to the marriage and says she's going to start leaving the house too but she'll be in the company of another man because she "could" think that I'm doing that with a woman.  However, she follows me around the house to argue.  The last time, our daughter called and talked to me after I left and told me how she felt the same way as her mom and felt that was disrespectful.  Technically, she's my stepdaughter but I consider them mine.  Their mom has drilled this into their mental since the first time I did it years ago.  My wife used to keep me up ALL night preventing me from getting any sleep at all before having to go to work and at times things were about to get violent.  Our son (blood) feels it's probably best I leave for a little while if the situation escalates. 

[formflier]

There are a lot of dysfunctional things swirling about here.  I still say step 1... .let's think about this for a week (or some other period of time)... make a plan... then do it.

OK.

GK has nailed it with the grown girls (adults).  Leave the room... let them do whatever.  Side question:  Have you ever talked to them in private about this.  "Hey girls (or whatever you call them), I'm trying to improve the r/s with mom.  If I ask for privacy, would you guys feel comfortable going to another room?" 

What would happen if they did something like that?  Would they tell their mom if you asked?

I keep going back to big picture to help you organize and then deal with your FOG. 

If she wants a divorce... .she would have filed papers long ago.  There is NO reason she needs you assistance to get a divorce.  She DOES want your assistance dealing with her feelings about the subject.  Or perhaps better to look a divorce as a dysfunctional tool to deal with bigger feelings.  Until you let her deal with her own feelings... by not taking them when she "hands" them to you... .she will keep letting you deal with them.

big breath...

If she wants to have sex with another man... .or woman... .or become a swinger... .she can do that without you.  So it's not about that.  It's simply a tool that "works" for her... .at least in her mind. 


I'm a bit of a "take a stand guy"... so I hope others will weigh in on the wisdom of leaving the house, versus going to a room and locking door.  Make sure you have things to do in there.  Make sure she doesn't have a key.

Think this through.  A couple weeks ago was my last use of a door.  I have to stand behind the door... .lock it... and wedge my foot at bottom.  Wife has unlocked them before and came in.  However... .I know from experience that give it 5 minutes... .the energy dissipates... .poof... .it never happened.

Since you have never "boundaried" your wife on this... not sure what she will do.

Thoughts?

FF

[Grey Kitty]

I've left the house several times with the most recent being about a month ago.  She considers this a "deal breaker" and a definite disrespect to the marriage and says she's going to start leaving the house too but she'll be in the company of another man because she "could" think that I'm doing that with a woman.

I'm going to be really harsh here.

You have a choice: You can stay and subject yourself to verbal abuse, and nothing will improve. Or you can leave and protect yourself from it.

And your wife gets to decide what she will do if you leave.

My guess is that if she wanted to go see another guy, she probably would have already. Or if she does it "because you left and might be with a woman", then she was going to do it anyways.

Instead she is using the threat with you... .because it worked. You tried leaving. She threatened. You aren't doin git anymore. She gets what she is used to getting--she gets to handle her feelings by using you as an emotional punching bag. You are staying there for it.

My advice is to call her bluff. And if it turns out not to be a bluff, that tells you how much she really valued your marriage.

[dacoming]

There are a lot of dysfunctional things swirling about here.  I still say step 1... .let's think about this for a week (or some other period of time)... make a plan... then do it.

OK.

GK has nailed it with the grown girls (adults).  Leave the room... let them do whatever.  Side question:  Have you ever talked to them in private about this.  "Hey girls (or whatever you call them), I'm trying to improve the r/s with mom.  If I ask for privacy, would you guys feel comfortable going to another room?" 

What would happen if they did something like that?  Would they tell their mom if you asked?

I keep going back to big picture to help you organize and then deal with your FOG. 

If she wants a divorce... .she would have filed papers long ago.  There is NO reason she needs you assistance to get a divorce.  She DOES want your assistance dealing with her feelings about the subject.  Or perhaps better to look a divorce as a dysfunctional tool to deal with bigger feelings.  Until you let her deal with her own feelings... by not taking them when she "hands" them to you... .she will keep letting you deal with them.

big breath...

If she wants to have sex with another man... .or woman... .or become a swinger... .she can do that without you.  So it's not about that.  It's simply a tool that "works" for her... .at least in her mind. 


I'm a bit of a "take a stand guy"... so I hope others will weigh in on the wisdom of leaving the house, versus going to a room and locking door.  Make sure you have things to do in there.  Make sure she doesn't have a key.

Think this through.  A couple weeks ago was my last use of a door.  I have to stand behind the door... .lock it... and wedge my foot at bottom.  Wife has unlocked them before and came in.  However... .I know from experience that give it 5 minutes... .the energy dissipates... .poof... .it never happened.

Since you have never "boundaried" your wife on this... not sure what she will do.

Thoughts?

FF

The one time I locked myself in a room, she disassembled the door knob, took it off and came in and really harassed me.  This woman respects NO boundaries. 

[formflier]

The one time I locked myself in a room, she disassembled the door knob, took it off and came in and really harassed me.  This woman respects NO boundaries. 

OK... .this is why planning is important.  Make sure the lock is better... .perhaps a hook on the inside... .and be prepared to call the police.

Or... .decide that leaving the house is best options.

About boundaries... .she doesn't have to respect them... .you have to "hold" them.  She gets to "bang up against" them all day long.

If this doesn't work, then the boundary itself needs to be examined... .and the method of "enforcement".  In other words, she doesn't have to agree or participate in you protecting what is really a boundary.

So... .what happened after she came in the room... .did you leave the house then?

Have you ever called police on her?

FF

[dacoming]

I'm going to be really harsh here.

You have a choice: You can stay and subject yourself to verbal abuse, and nothing will improve. Or you can leave and protect yourself from it.

And your wife gets to decide what she will do if you leave.

My guess is that if she wanted to go see another guy, she probably would have already. Or if she does it "because you left and might be with a woman", then she was going to do it anyways.

Instead she is using the threat with you... .because it worked. You tried leaving. She threatened. You aren't doin git anymore. She gets what she is used to getting--she gets to handle her feelings by using you as an emotional punching bag. You are staying there for it.

My advice is to call her bluff. And if it turns out not to be a bluff, that tells you how much she really valued your marriage.

You are absolutely correct, this is what I needed to see.  If she follows through and hooks up with another man, I don't need her or this marriage anyway.  I worry so much about how she is spinning everything around on me and attacking my character to the kids.  But they are grown and I should give them more credit to see for themselves.  She is very manipulative and it seems it's working, unless they are going along with her to stay out of her crosshairs too.  They don't say much but do comment back to her at times, which is usually in her favor.  I guess I can't control how they see and handle it either.  

[dacoming]

OK... .this is why planning is important.  Make sure the lock is better... .perhaps a hook on the inside... .and be prepared to call the police.

Or... .decide that leaving the house is best options.

About boundaries... .she doesn't have to respect them... .you have to "hold" them.  She gets to "bang up against" them all day long.

If this doesn't work, then the boundary itself needs to be examined... .and the method of "enforcement".  In other words, she doesn't have to agree or participate in you protecting what is really a boundary.

So... .what happened after she came in the room... .did you leave the house then?

Have you ever called police on her?

FF

She started antagonizing me and trying to get me to hit her.  I stayed that time and it went on through the middle of the night/morning.  I have threatened to call the police before because I left the room to get away from her, she followed.  She started poking her finger in my face, insulting me and daring me to hit her.  I went downstairs, she followed with the same stuff.  As she continued to threaten me, I stop and turned towards her and said do it and that I would call the police.  The girls were in the room.  She turned this into me threatening her... .saying she felt I was getting into her face and trying to make her hit me so that I can have her thrown in jail.  I did leave the house this time and came back.  When I came back, the kids, including our son who was not in the room at the time, were all mad at me for trying to "provoke" their mom and have her thrown in jail.  Then came the insults from her that I'm less than a man to call the police on my wife when she has to look out for the kids and was just talking to me.  I told her and them that I wasn't going to call the police; I just wanted her to leave me alone.  She refused to believe that.