Setting Clear Outlines & Eliminating the FOG

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

I think I'm getting very clear on how to move forward with making decisions about my marriage. I love him, and I don't doubt that he loves me, but his abusive behavior and inaction toward getting a job are taking their toll on our marriage.

I'm writing everything down here for perspective, I guess, and feedback on my outlook. I no longer want to enable him, and, while I recognize that he has never in his life been required to bear any responsibility whatsoever, and that doing so is challenging, I have to honor my own building feelings of resentment, and understand that this is not a life I want to live, taking care of a grown man who wants to laze on the sofa, or hang out on social media all day long while I work 9-14 hours a day. I am recognizing that I'm losing attraction to him, and have lost respect for him, because I am in a caretaker role instead of the role of partner.

So, I have decided to communicate clearly my values and needs. I need to have a partner who is willing to develop a solid work ethic, who can go to a job, any job, consistently over time. I need to have someone who is willing to have respect for me and my family, and not call us names. I also need someone who is able to take care of themselves, to bathe regularly and take care of dental hygiene, as well as get adequate sleep and nutrition, in addition to mental health services.

If he is unable to meet these expectations, especially #1 within a reasonable amount of time, I will need to consider next steps. I think if I set clear goals and outlines, if he wants to work on the marriage, he will need to meet these. If he is unable and unwilling, then I can decide to opt to care for myself, and ask for separation.

Does that sound reasonable to set these "adult" expectations?

[WitzEndWife]

I think I'm getting very clear on how to move forward with making decisions about my marriage. I love him, and I don't doubt that he loves me, but his abusive behavior and inaction toward getting a job are taking their toll on our marriage.

I'm writing everything down here for perspective, I guess, and feedback on my outlook. I no longer want to enable him, and, while I recognize that he has never in his life been required to bear any responsibility whatsoever, and that doing so is challenging, I have to honor my own building feelings of resentment, and understand that this is not a life I want to live, taking care of a grown man who wants to laze on the sofa, or hang out on social media all day long while I work 9-14 hours a day. I am recognizing that I'm losing attraction to him, and have lost respect for him, because I am in a caretaker role instead of the role of partner.

So, I have decided to communicate clearly my values and needs. I need to have a partner who is willing to develop a solid work ethic, who can go to a job, any job, consistently over time. I need to have someone who is willing to have respect for me and my family, and not call us names. I also need someone who is able to take care of themselves, to bathe regularly and take care of dental hygiene, as well as get adequate sleep and nutrition, in addition to mental health services.

If he is unable to meet these expectations, especially #1 within a reasonable amount of time, I will need to consider next steps. I think if I set clear goals and outlines, if he wants to work on the marriage, he will need to meet these. If he is unable and unwilling, then I can decide to opt to care for myself, and ask for separation.

Does that sound reasonable to set these "adult" expectations?

[formflier]

Does that sound reasonable to set these "adult" expectations?

All very reasonable... .but... .

When it comes to implementation, I'm going to challenge you to shift the language to things that you can control.

Attempt to control yourself... .vice control him.  Understand that when you are asking him for things... that you are making a request.

I DO agree that this all has a lot to do with respect.  It also shows that once respect is lost, it can be hard to regain.

Focus first on the abusive talk... .  YOU have the ability to step away from that... .right now.  Are you doing this?

Do you understand the following concept.  People usually do what they do, because it works for them.

Few questions

Why doesn't he have a job?  Does he apply?  Interview?

How is his physical health?

I'm not familiar with your story... .so trying to get caught up a bit.

FF

[PFCI]

Does that sound reasonable to set these "adult" expectations?

Yes, but sadly you aren't dealing with a reasonable adult. 

The first thing you should do is understand that wanting to control or change your BPD partner aren't realistic expectations. All you can do is control your own behavior, feelings and reactions to the situation. 

Read about setting boundaries, and do it.  It will really help you stabilize the situation.  Once you've done that, you can decide what you want, and to proceeded.

 Good luck.

[ortac77]

I think that the problem with setting out your 'reasonable adult expectations' is that you can only do them for you. They may then form the basis for better boundaries?

I am going through the same process because I have slowly come to see that living with a pwBPD SO has over the years 'adjusted' my perspective on life. I too love my partner and equally am sure he loves me BUT by any frame of reference there is nothing normal or adult about our relationship - it represents classic care taking on my part and grudging tolerance rather than true acceptance.

My list of resentments looks very like yours - slowly I am taking stock and changing my behaviours to align them with my core values and learning to challenge my 'co-dependance' and see it for what it is. I am doing this with the help of therapy and, difficult as it is, keeping in the moment and letting go of the outcome.

Ultimately I have to work through this with a view to deciding if I want or am able to maintain the relationship, what is my level of acceptance and how to let go. Over the years I have taken on a lot and can see that this has damaged me - it is time to repair me. It is only then I can have the conversations with my SO that will determine the best way forward.

This process is allowing me to see the how my hurt leads to fear leads to anger and the suppression of that anger leads to pain. I guess I have had enough of this 'merry-go-round'.

Only my partner can work on his side of things, he is starting DBT soon, it may work - it may not. Of course I support his decision but for now my emphasis must be on me.

Any future us is going to take a lot of work and I am learning to accept that there may not be a future us, it takes two to tango!

All the Best

[WitzEndWife]

So, first of all, he is physically able to work, but he has never consistently held a regular job. His previous positions have been a weekly newspaper columnist and a freelance photographer. His mother basically paid for everything else. He does not have a college degree. When we met he was coming to the U.S. from Canada, and he was planning to stay there for a bit to work on his resident visa (which he was entitled to apply for in a special case). He moved in with me fairly quickly, and worked steadily at helping me around the house and fixing my cars. Beyond that, he consistently looked for cash gigs online, but there wasn't much available. Eventually, he stopped consistently helping me, and stopped looking for gigs altogether. He spoke about becoming a real estate agent, so my sister bought him a book on it for Christmas. He didn't once crack it open. I bought him a car because he BEGGED me for it, swearing that he would redouble his efforts to look for cash gigs to pay for it. He did not.

When we got married, we decided to apply for a marriage visa, as his other visa paperwork was taking too long. He received a work permit here in September, and started driving Uber occasionally, but not consistently. I was laid off in September, and we moved back in with my parents in another state in November, when I took another job. He swore up and down that he would study for his real estate exam once he got to the new state, but he has yet to crack open the book (again).

Simultaneously, living with my parents has triggered some trauma in him, and he is incredibly uncomfortable living there. He has raged and has been abusive to both me and my parents, who have bent over backward to accommodate him. He is begging me to buy a home or to rent an apartment, but I'm trying to pay down some of the debt incurred by both the car and my unemployment. I told him that, if he wanted to leave and get an apartment, he had to seek consistent employment, or wait for me to pay down the debt. I told him that I didn't think that it was fair that I should be the only one working and taking on financial burdens.

My boundary for abuse is that I will not listen to it, and, if it continues, I will not be with someone who treats me or my family poorly.

So, to recap what I will/won't do:

I won't rent an apartment until he finds consistent employment.
I will not listen to and engage with abusive language and behavior, such as name-calling, and I will ask him to leave, if he continues to be abusive.

[formflier]

OK... .my impression from reading your post is that you are starting to get a clear understanding of what you are working with here.   

Now I hope you (and your family) can change their approach a bit. 

Stop solving things for him...   Let him be an adult. If he makes bad choices... .let him feel the consequences.

He badly needs to mature... .let him do that.  It won't be easy... .  In 6 months... .it will be harder... .the longer you wait... the harder it will be.

So, first of all, he is physically able to work, but he has never consistently held a regular job.

OK... so... just to be clear... no physical issues... surgeries.  Has he ever applied for disability? 

and worked steadily at helping me around the house and fixing my cars.

Can he be a mechanic... .or work in a oil change shop?  Does he enjoy car work? 

  Eventually, he stopped consistently helping me, and stopped looking for gigs altogether. He spoke about becoming a real estate agent, so my sister bought him a book on it for Christmas.

Because... .?  He doesn't know where books are bought?  If he was really serious... he would have gotten his own book.

This is a version of "nagging"... .or "solving his problems... "   Stop doing this...

I bought him a car because he BEGGED me for it, swearing that he would redouble his efforts to look for cash gigs to pay for it. He did not.

So... .from now on...  

Express confidence that he will sort out how to make the money and get his own stuff.  Or... if you "make a deal" with him... .  get your end first.  Such as... .

"after all these rooms are painted... .I will buy you xyz"

He received a work permit here in September, and started driving Uber occasionally, but not consistently.

I do some ubering... .really more for contact with people than for the money.  ON some nights... .I've made some insanely good money as well.

Is he all set up to uber in the new location?   

He swore up and down that he would study for his real estate exam once he got to the new state, but he has yet to crack open the book (again).

When you ask him about this... .what does he say?

Simultaneously, living with my parents has triggered some trauma in him, and he is incredibly uncomfortable living there.

How did trauma get triggered?  What does he do?  What does arguments and abuse to your parents look and sound like?

He has raged and has been abusive to both me and my parents, who have bent over backward to accommodate him.

Exactly the wrong response...

They should set the standard for behavior for people that live in their house.  I'm assuming for free.

If he doesn't meet the standard... .he should no longer be welcome to live there.

He is begging me to buy a home or to rent an apartment, but I'm trying to pay down some of the debt incurred by both the car and my unemployment.

Good job not giving in.

I told him that, if he wanted to leave and get an apartment, he had to seek consistent employment, or wait for me to pay down the debt. I told him that I didn't think that it was fair that I should be the only one working and taking on financial burdens.

Stop telling him you will get another place.  Place it all on him.  "after you save X amount of $ to support a house purchase... .I will xyz"

My boundary for abuse is that I will not listen to it, and, if it continues, I will not be with someone who treats me or my family poorly.

Good boundary and value statement!   

FF

[WitzEndWife]

Stop solving things for him...   Let him be an adult. If he makes bad choices... .let him feel the consequences.

He badly needs to mature... .let him do that.  It won't be easy... .  In 6 months... .it will be harder... .the longer you wait... the harder it will be.

Yes, I realize this. I just learned from our counselor that she thinks he has BPD, so I've been learning how to deal with this -reading books, using tools, etc.

OK... so... just to be clear... no physical issues... surgeries.  Has he ever applied for disability? 

He has zero physical issues and has never applied for disability. In fact, he used to ride his bike 40-100 miles every day and never had any injuries.

Can he be a mechanic... .or work in a oil change shop?  Does he enjoy car work? 

I've suggested all kinds of things, such as car sales or working with cars, but he has turned his nose up at everything I've suggested for one reason or another, so I've stopped suggesting.

Because... .?  He doesn't know where books are bought?  If he was really serious... he would have gotten his own book.

This is a version of "nagging"... .or "solving his problems... "   Stop doing this...

I did not buy him the book, my sister did. I stopped "nagging" (I didn't do much of this anyway) about two weeks after we moved here and I realized that he wasn't motivated to do anything. I thought he could wallow for a while and he'd get good and sick of doing so, but, so far, he hasn't, and is just pleased as punch to do the bare minimum.

So... .from now on...  

Express confidence that he will sort out how to make the money and get his own stuff.  Or... if you "make a deal" with him... .  get your end first.  Such as... .

"after all these rooms are painted... .I will buy you xyz"

Agreed. I won't be suckered into anything any longer.

I do some ubering... .really more for contact with people than for the money.  ON some nights... .I've made some insanely good money as well.

Is he all set up to uber in the new location?   

Yes, he can uber here, but it doesn't earn him much money in our location, so he's gotten discouraged. Plus, he has to use MY car because his is too old.

When you ask him about this... .what does he say?

How did trauma get triggered?  What does he do?  What does arguments and abuse to your parents look and sound like?

When he was 14, his mother and stepfather sent him away to live in a foster home, and he was traumatized by it. He lived in a dirty basement and shared a brown, dirty towel with three other boys, who teased him and stole his things. He had to keep all of his things in his locker at school. So, he has some discomfort with being in a home where everything seems "normal" and he has a hard time trusting people. In addition, his childhood home was in the suburbs, and he has a deep distrust of the suburbs as a result. He believes that suburbia is evil (obviously not rational).

My parents are the villains in his story. He complains about where they live, the fact that they have carpet, the fact that they watch the news, that their political views are different from his, that they use the microwave occasionally, that they eat too much meat, etc.

He often belittles and bullies them, and has flat-out yelled at them and cursed at them during an argument. He spends days in his room, without leaving to eat or drink anything, because he doesn't want to see them.

Exactly the wrong response...

They should set the standard for behavior for people that live in their house.  I'm assuming for free.

If he doesn't meet the standard... .he should no longer be welcome to live there.

They are letting him stay because of me. They won't kick him out until I tell him to get out. However, he is aware that the meanness and abuse has to stop, and, right now, it's been managed and he's been reasonable.

[formflier]

Has he been to therapy?  Does he have diagnosis?

Tell me about the counseling situation where the T thinks he has BPD?

It sounds like your parents are supportive of you... .!   

That is good.  It is likely time for you to have chat with them and your sister and let them know to run "support" ideas through you first.

After you answer the questions about therapy... .I'll have some more suggestions about his behavior around the house.

How did the conversation go where you told him no more abuse?  What did you say?  What did he say?  Has he apologized? 

Am I correct that he has not raged anymore?  How many times did he rage at your parents?  You?

Lots of questions... .I know.  The basic strategy is to give him choices, respect his choice and let him sort out the consequences of his choices.

FF

[Grey Kitty]

If he is unable to meet these expectations, especially #1 within a reasonable amount of time, I will need to consider next steps. I think if I set clear goals and outlines, if he wants to work on the marriage, he will need to meet these. If he is unable and unwilling, then I can decide to opt to care for myself, and ask for separation.

I'm concerned about getting into a situation where you are treating him like a child, setting goals for him, and judging whether he succeeds at them or not. And I imagine him being a very badly behaved child in that situation... .

Instead, think about setting aside that desire that he be a responsible adult pulling his own weight for a while, maybe a month or two.

Let him "ride along for free" for a bit longer, but insist he stop being a ball and chain you have to drag along.

In other words, deal with his abusive behavior toward you and your parents. That's a big enough issue for this month... .and if he is behaving that way while otherwise acting like a high-functioning adult, do you want to stay?

[WitzEndWife]

Has he been to therapy?  Does he have diagnosis?

Tell me about the counseling situation where the T thinks he has BPD?

He does not have an official diagnosis from in individual therapist, but we went through a full year of almost weekly couples counseling with my therapist, and, about a month and a half ago, she said to me: "This isn't an official diagnosis, but I think he might be Borderline." And she gave me some resources to look into to see if that sounded like him.

The DSM outlines fit him to a T, and all of the books I've read so far have mirrored my interactions with him, as well as his traumatic childhood and abandonment issues. Because of his trauma, he is still 14 years old in many ways, and he harbors a lot of rage. He cannot bear to receive criticism, and creates false realities around his feelings all of the time.

I've finally gotten him to do individual therapy again, via a psychotherapist my therapist recommended, but he only sees her via Skype. Her goal will eventually be to get him to do more intensive, in-person therapy, but we'll see how that pans out.

How did the conversation go where you told him no more abuse?  What did you say?  What did he say?  Has he apologized? 

He didn't apologize, but he said that he was angry at himself, not me or my parents. I told him that I understood, but that it was hurtful when he took it out on us. He didn't say much, but he hasn't been terrible to any of us since. That's not to say that he won't be again.

The raging was quite regular, at least every few days. He hasn't raged in almost a week, so that's something.

[/quote]

[WitzEndWife]

Let him "ride along for free" for a bit longer, but insist he stop being a ball and chain you have to drag along.

In other words, deal with his abusive behavior toward you and your parents. That's a big enough issue for this month... .and if he is behaving that way while otherwise acting like a high-functioning adult, do you want to stay?

If he's acting abusive, I don't want to be with him. I don't want to be with someone who doesn't respect me and cannot care for themselves.

[formflier]

If he's acting abusive, I don't want to be with him. I don't want to be with someone who doesn't respect me and cannot care for themselves.

There is a bit of chance you missed the point of this post. 

1.  DO NOT TOLERATE ABUSE... .zip... zero... nadda.

that being said... there is no reason to punish him for past abuse... .focus on your future relationship.

2.  Assuming abuse is and stays set aside... .  instead of focusing on "making him do things"... .focus on "not doing things for him".  It will take him a month or two in order to fully understand that you are not solving his problems anymore... .(and hopefully your family can do this as well).

3.  Then... .you can step up your expectations of him.  Realizing they are requests and that you will respect his choices... .and allow him to experience the natural and logical consequences of his choices.  Don't save him   (assuming he makes "wrong" choices)  Express your sadness at his choices and your confidence that he can work through them.

If he makes a wrong choice... .wises up... .and makes a better choice... .praise and support him... .but don't go over the top.

Thoughts?  Do you see the "strategy" over the next few months?

FF

[WitzEndWife]

Honestly, I have been paying his expenses for so long, I don't really know where to start scaling back.

I pay for:
1) His healthcare (it automatically comes out of my paycheck)
2) His car (an automatic payment each month) and car insurance
3) Our groceries & toiletries
4) Entertainment (eating out, drinking out, etc. We go somewhere about once a week) and his mobile phone
5) Occasional new clothing items, cycling gear, etc. (only when things wear out completely -his favorite shoes had holes in them)

And obviously he has his residential situation taken care of by my parents. I guess I could stop paying for his clothing, and tell him that I'm going to set a timeline to stop paying on other expenses, such as his phone, so that I can better pay down my debts.

[Grey Kitty]

If he's acting abusive, I don't want to be with him. I don't want to be with someone who doesn't respect me and cannot care for themselves.

Does it seem like he's really stopped being abusive, hostile, or critical of you and your parents? As in a real change? If I am remembering correctly, you mentioned it being a week since his last rage. Is it better than that?

[formflier]

  I guess I could stop paying for his clothing, and tell him that I'm going to set a timeline to stop paying on other expenses, such as his phone, so that I can better pay down my debts.

I think you have the right idea to organize this in your head for what you will scale back on.

Understand he won't change overnight... nor should you change everything.

Perhaps even "flip" it on him.  Tell him you are going to start "matching" what he brings to the marriage for an area of the budget.

So... .if he spends $200 on clothes... .tell him you will put in a dollar for every 2 that he puts in.  Adjust the ratio as needed.  This was your money is "following" his... .he is in the lead and decides the amounts.

Realize he will push back... .don't counter accuse or add fuel to the fire.  Let him know he can respect your choice and your earning power... .and you will respect his.

You could also offer "in kind" services... .  So... .if he does xyz... .you fund budget with a certain amount.  Assuming he doesn't get paid for xyz.

Thoughts?

FF

[WitzEndWife]

Does it seem like he's really stopped being abusive, hostile, or critical of you and your parents? As in a real change? If I am remembering correctly, you mentioned it being a week since his last rage. Is it better than that?

He is still critical, but he has stopped short of being downright abusive so far.

He has started getting out of bed during the day, and has taken up being more active, which probably helps his mood. He got up at 7AM this morning and told me he was going to go on a long bike ride. It's interesting because this was behavior that used to annoy me, because he was avoiding looking for a job, but now the bar is set so low, that just having him get out of bed is a good day.

[formflier]

He is still critical

Can you do some he said she said on this? 

Between you and him... .and between he and your parents.

Is there a third option where you are tall together and he is critical?

I'm trying to get an idea of how many dynamics there are... .and how different they may be.

OK... .then... .how do you approach him when you would like something done.  How does he set his daily schedule?

How do your parents approach him about him doing things around the house?

Does he ever ask what he could do that would be helpful... .?  Does he ever approach you guys really about anything... .or (if my assumption is correct)... .is he a recluse.?

FF

[WitzEndWife]

Perhaps even "flip" it on him.  Tell him you are going to start "matching" what he brings to the marriage for an area of the budget.

So... .if he spends $200 on clothes... .tell him you will put in a dollar for every 2 that he puts in.  Adjust the ratio as needed.  This was your money is "following" his... .he is in the lead and decides the amounts.

Realize he will push back... .don't counter accuse or add fuel to the fire.  Let him know he can respect your choice and your earning power... .and you will respect his.

You could also offer "in kind" services... .  So... .if he does xyz... .you fund budget with a certain amount.  Assuming he doesn't get paid for xyz.

Thoughts?

FF

I think the matching idea could be motivating for him. I'll have to figure out how to best orchestrate it, but, that way, it gives him confidence without fearing the withdrawal of my support.

[WitzEndWife]

Can you do some he said she said on this? 

He usually does all of the complaining to me, about them. It's constant nattering, maybe about 4-5 times per day. Example:
"Wow, I can't believe that your mom got a membership to the botanical garden, but refused to buy a house in the neighborhood." (He HATES the fact that they live in the suburbs, 30 miles away from the city, so he's constantly harping on this).

or, "Too bad your parents live so far away. They must only get to the garden a few times a year."

Sometimes he says things TO my parents directly, like he was remarking to my dad how it was obvious that he'd been Americanized, because his brother, who still lives in his home country, was so well-dressed (clearly a dig at my dad's wardrobe). He also made a rude comment about my dad's weight last night. Things like that. SO nice.

OK... .then... .how do you approach him when you would like something done.  How does he set his daily schedule?

How do your parents approach him about him doing things around the house?

Does he ever ask what he could do that would be helpful... .?  Does he ever approach you guys really about anything... .or (if my assumption is correct)... .is he a recluse.?

When I would like something done, I usually frame it in the context of how I would feel if something gets done, such as, "It would really help me out if you could do X." If it's a one-time task, he does it willingly.

He has no daily routine whatsoever right now. He wakes up when he wakes up, and then spends most of the day on his computer or his phone. Sometimes he goes for a bike ride, sometimes he washes the car. Sometimes he runs errands. Other times, he sits in his room and doesn't engage with anyone, eat or drink. It totally depends on his feelings that day.

My parents never really ask him for anything. They pretty much ignore him, unless he speaks to them at this point, because most of the time he is so rude to them or prickly when they do engage. Again, if it's a one-time task, he does so without question. It's regular routine stuff that he balks at.

He never asks what he could do to be helpful. He's extremely selfish and reclusive.

[formflier]

I'll have to figure out how to best orchestrate it, 

Noo... .  

Spend time thinking about how best to "say it". 

Then let him figure out the rest.  Big picture:  Start the process of STOPPING figuring things out for him.

If you treat him like a person that can't sort out his life... .don't be shocked if he acts that way

FF

[formflier]

  He also made a rude comment about my dad's weight last night. Things like that. SO nice.

Can you elaborate more... .word for word if possible.  What is context... .what was being talked about ahead of time.

Big picture:  You guys need to ask him for clarification... .be tentative... hand the weird stuff back to him.

"Oh thanks!  Umm... did you mean that as a compliment?"  Be a bit bemused... .do NOT assume it is a dig.  Let him wrestle with how to clarify it.  If he chooses not to clarify... .move along... let him know you don't understand.

"It would really help me out if you could do X." If it's a one-time task, he does it willingly.

Very good!

I personally like "It would mean a lot to me if... ."

So... .take me to a time when you wanted to talk about "the routine" and he balked.  He said she said.  I see an odd dynamic I'm trying to understand better.

Ask him to do something specific and short term... .something "right now"... .and he seems to do it and be "OK" with it.  Yet... .talk about a routine and that's bad.

Do I have this correct?

FF

[Grey Kitty]

He usually does all of the complaining to me, about them. It's constant nattering, maybe about 4-5 times per day. Example:
"Wow, I can't believe that your mom got a membership to the botanical garden, but refused to buy a house in the neighborhood."

You've got two different situations.

One is him criticizing your parents to you. That's between him and you, it is triangulating (which you don't have to engage), and it is annoying. You can enforce a boundary easily if you need to.

The other is criticizing your parents in front of you. That's more difficult, because any efforts on your part to stop it/protect your parents risk you triangulating.

Either way, if he makes ONE snide/snippy/critical comment like that, then lets it drop, there probably isn't much to do but live with it. Or at best, calmly say something about that not being acceptable behavior. ":)ude, that's not cool."

If it escalates from there, taking more action is needed. Just don't let it turn into a circular argument and JADEing about whether he's being rude/disrespectful of your parents-that wont' help anything!


Some time when he's NOT making a snippy comment, when he's in a good/receptive mood, you might want to have a conversation with him about this pattern.

You and he are guests of your parents, living there for free, because they are doing the two of you a big favor. That won't continue much longer unless the two of you both treat them with respect, and these critical comments are disrespectful, even when they are true. (i.e. your parents do live in the suburbs, and your dad is overweight and not a snappy dresser, etc.)

[formflier]

Think about this idea for a bit... .as a way to have a conversation... .and get him thinking differently.

Ask him on a "one time" basis... .to go get a thank you card for your parents.  Perhaps you could identify an anniversary coming up.  Such as... .this weekend we will have been here x months.

Two things.

1.  That he take steps to be kind and thankful to your parents.  Have him get card and fill it out... .you will sign it... .add comments after him. 

2.  After card is filled out... ."You know... .since it's been x months.  I'd like to hear your thoughts on how you see the next X months going."

Very important you look to the future... .DO NOT discuss "how it has gone".  Leave the past in the past.

So... if you've been there 2 months... .you want to hear his thoughts about the next 2 months.

Very important that you let him go first... .get it all out.  Reflect back to him.  When it seems like he is done... .ask him... ."Got it... .anything else?" 

Then have perhaps two items to discuss with him. 

I'm going to suggest money and (what would be next most important).  Stay big picture here... .

FF

[WitzEndWife]

Can you elaborate more... .word for word if possible.  What is context... .what was being talked about ahead of time.

My uncle was speaking in French (which H doesn't understand) about how much Americans eat. I translated for him, "Oh, he was saying that Americans eat a lot of food," to which H responded, pointing to my father, "Yes, especially this one!"

So... .take me to a time when you wanted to talk about "the routine" and he balked.  He said she said.  I see an odd dynamic I'm trying to understand better.

Ask him to do something specific and short term... .something "right now"... .and he seems to do it and be "OK" with it.  Yet... .talk about a routine and that's bad.

Do I have this correct?

Yes. It's not so much that he out-and-out refuses to do things regularly, it's more that he might agree to do something, but then lets it lapse within a day or two. For example, I asked for him to please stop using my grandmothers' antique hand mirror because it was a sentimental artifact, and I didn't want it to be ruined. He stopped using it for two days, and then I found it back in his bag, among all of his sharp toiletry items.

When he balks, it's because I'm stopping him from doing something he wants to do. So, for example, he has been staying up til the wee hours of the morning. I have trouble sleeping through the night, and I usually wake up between 1 and 3AM. If I don't have any stimuli, I can fall back asleep, but he likes to leave the light on, even when he's not in the room, and it bugs me and keeps me up. Once I'm stimulated awake, I cannot go back to sleep for several hours. I wake up between 5 and 6 AM to workout and then go to work, so this is extremely disruptive. I have asked in many different ways for him to shut off the light when he leaves the room, but he never does. Last night, he was in the other room and I woke up at 1AM, with the bright light in my face. I reached over to his side and switched it off. Shortly thereafter, he came back to bed, and he expressed irritation at my having shut off his light.
I said, "It's disrupting my sleep."
He said, "I like having the light on."
I said, "It's keeping me awake and I have to get up at five in the morning."
He said, "Fine, I'll just go back to Canada then."
I said, sarcastically, "Oh, so you're going to leave me because I can't sleep with your light blaring in my face. Okay, makes sense."
He, recognizing the ridiculousness of his reaction, shrugged, and said, "Anyway, this is the first time I've ever had to deal with someone who has sleep problems."
I said, "Well, sorry. If it's bad for you, think about how it must be for me."
He reiterated, "I've never known anyone with that problem."
Me, "Whatever, I'm tired. I'm going to try to sleep with the light on, because I have to sleep."
Him, "Fine!" *click* (light off)

[formflier]

I'm going to give you a gut reaction.

I don't think he was "digging" at your Dad.  I think he was trying to be sarcastic... .funny... .and it literally got lost in translation. 

My take... .let that kind of stuff go... .  Reasoning... .there is context for a normal person to get confused and miscommunicate.  So... .someone that already has sensitivity and communication issues... .is going to have extra issues.


The sleep thing.

pwBPD don't respect sleep.  Ok... .maybe some do... but this seems to be a thing with them.

Mine used to not respect my sleep... .for about a year now... .it's been much better.

I DO have sleep issues, so my "sleep rules" are much more restrictive than a normal person.   That being said... .sleep is a basic human need.  Period.

"Hey babe.  We have different sleep patterns... .that's ok.  We both need restful sleep.  Here is a small flashlight.  It would mean a lot to me if between the hours of 10pm and 5 am if you could use this light when coming in and out of the room."

Perhaps you could follow up with... or lead with.  "I believe I'm a much friendlier person when I get adequate sleep.  Lighting is keeping me from the sleep I need."

Don't engage on sleep issues... .going back to Canada... .just leave it alone.

Or... .offer to talk about it separately.  "Hey... .if you want to discuss a move back to Canada... .I'm available tomorrow at 6pm.  Please let me know."

See how you "handed it back to him... ."

FF

[WitzEndWife]

So, this JUST happened.

He texted me (I'm at work): "Your parents have the A/C on." (He hates A/C)
Me: "You can tell them that you don't like it. Ask them to turn it off."
Him: "I turned it off. Your mom got pissed because your uncle is feeling ill from 'the heat.' Not sure if he tried changing into shorts and a T."
Me: "He is 80 and has had health problems recently. You might have to live with it."
Him: "I have breathing issues. When it's 80, I open the damn windows for some fresh air."
Me: "Go outside."
Him: "Can't take another month of this."
Me: "I'm sorry you're frustrated. There's not a whole lot I can do about that at the moment. What's your plan?"
Him: "What the heck kind of weirdo leaves their windows closed every damn day of the year? Let's take the rest of the savings and get a place."
Me: "I understand you're angry and upset, but I'm not prepared to do that."
Him: "It's the first F*cking day of spring and the A/C is on."
Me: "Because of my uncle."
Him: "I'm at the end of my rope. Real talk."
Me: "What do you want me to do?"
Him: "Sign a lease."
Me: "I can't afford that. Can your mom send you money?"
Him: "Yeah, to come home."
Me: "Is that what you want?"
Him: "I'm not living with people who don't open windows."
Me: "They always have opened windows in spring, except for when my mom's allergies were really bad. This is a special situation."
Him: ":)ude was probably wearing a sweater when he said that."
Me: "If you're really uncomfortable, come up with a solution. Maybe you can stay with your friend for a little bit."
Him: "I'm on my bike."

My mom was texting me simultaneously, telling me the situation. Apparently H has been downstairs in bed ALL day. She had all of the windows open in the house, and my 80-year-old uncle had awoken from a nap feeling terrible because it was 90 degrees inside the house. So, she closed all of the windows and put on the A/C to cool things down, and my uncle immediately started to feel better. Around that same time, H came upstairs and noticed that the A/C was on. He immediately shut it off and opened all of the windows, which upset my mom because of my uncle. She said that H basically made fun of my uncle because he couldn't manage the heat. My mom is very hurt and upset and angry. She said she feels like punching him in the face (she never would, she's not even an angry person, but that's how she feels right now).

I'm seriously heartbroken that he could be so cruel. I don't think I can take this anymore. This cannot continue. I'm thinking of getting him a hotel room for the night until we can talk about it. I don't know what else to do.

[formflier]

I'm thinking of getting him a hotel room for the night until we can talk about it. I don't know what else to do.

Please don't solve things for him.  He is not your responsibility.  This is big picture stuff.

Let me do some work on the text's that you sent... .perhaps I can show you a way to approach this.

Honestly... .you did well... .sure... .things can always be improved.

   

FF

[formflier]

He texted me (I'm at work): "Your parents have the A/C on." (He hates A/C)
Me: "You can tell them that you don't like it. Ask them to turn it off."  (do you see how you solved something for him... .he is an adult and can figure out what to tell them


Him: "I turned it off. Your mom got pissed because your uncle is feeling ill from 'the heat.' Not sure if he tried changing into shorts and a T."

Me: "He is 80 and has had health problems recently. You might have to live with it."
 (this is pretty good).  I would suggest a bit of SET format... .or some sort of "prep".  Remember... .his "heart (feelings)" need to be prepped to "hear".

Frustrating to be around people with limitations.  Sometimes seems downright unreasonable.  It would mean a lot to me for you put my uncles needs over your desires.  We are guests.  


Him: "I have breathing issues. When it's 80, I open the damn windows for some fresh air."

(is there truth to this?  What does his doctor prescribe him to do?)

Me: "Go outside." (no no no no... .guess what I'm going to say.  Stop solving stuff for him.)

Him: "Can't take another month of this."
(Perhapys "sorry you feel that way" is a good response.  your response below is a bit wordy... succinct is what to shot for )

Me: "I'm sorry you're frustrated. There's not a whole lot I can do about that at the moment. What's your plan?"


Him: "What the heck kind of weirdo leaves their windows closed every damn day of the year? Let's take the rest of the savings and get a place."

(I would suggest texting "can we pause this text discussion so we can talk about this in person"

Me: "I understand you're angry and upset, but I'm not prepared to do that."

This sort of goes on and on... .best that you end it... .vice keeping it going.

Him: "It's the first F*cking day of spring and the A/C is on."

(no need for a response)

Me: "Because of my uncle."

Him: "I'm at the end of my rope. Real talk."
(again... talk in person... .later)

Me: "What do you want me to do?"

Him: "Sign a lease."

Me: "I can't afford that. Can your mom send you money?"
Him: "Yeah, to come home."
Me: "Is that what you want?"
Him: "I'm not living with people who don't open windows."
Me: "They always have opened windows in spring, except for when my mom's allergies were really bad. This is a special situation."
Him: ":)ude was probably wearing a sweater when he said that."
Me: "If you're really uncomfortable, come up with a solution. Maybe you can stay with your friend for a little bit."

(again... .NOO>... .stop suggesting actions... .and solving things)

Him: "I'm on my bike."
 

Do you get the gist of what I think is a better way to communicate?

FF

[formflier]

       

Back to you for a minute... .

Living with such an entitled person has got to be exhausting... .

This is not your fault... .

But you can make it better.  We won't know how much better until we work with it for a bit.

Hang in there!

FF

[Grey Kitty]

  It seems like he is making his point: He cannot live with your parents in a reasonable and civil fashion.

Financially, you have been carrying his weight, and as I understand it, he doesn't have the resources to support himself, and really hasn't the entire time you've know him.

Are you willing to send him off to sink or swim on his own, or failing that, latch onto somebody else to support him (his mom?)

[WitzEndWife]

Thanks all for your help and suggestions. I think FF's responses were really helpful regarding the line-by-line text conversation. I do have to stop solving for him. Funny enough, I realized this as I was doing it, but it's a hard habit to break.

I returned home last night, and he was actually out of his room, showered, and on his computer in the middle of the house (around the people he hates -Wow). He acted like nothing had ever happened.

Something has to happen soon though. I need to make a decision for my own sanity. He has proven that he's not willing to put the work in to get a job. He's done anything and everything to avoid the job search. I cannot support him any longer. I think I should write him a letter about this, instead of telling him in person. I'm better in letters. Thoughts?

[formflier]

Something has to happen soon though. I need to make a decision for my own sanity.

 He has proven that he's not willing to put the work in to get a job. He's done anything and everything to avoid the job search. I cannot support him any longer. I think I should write him a letter about this, instead of telling him in person. I'm better in letters. Thoughts?

Notice what I bolded... .that is stuff that YOU CONTROL... .100%.  Your decisions.  He is affected... .but doesn't get a vote.

Are you ready to "take back your vote"?

I'm going to challenge you to create a new thread and put your letter there.  I love letters!  I've written many... and delivered very few.

The process of writing a letter... .and going through several drafts... .where you keep cutting the letter down... .to focus the message... .is very powerful.

Go through the process... .write what is on your mind... .don't assume you know what you will discover in the process.

Do you think you can write a letter on these board?

FF

[WitzEndWife]

FF - yes, I can write a letter here. I'll give it some thought and do so soon.

[Grey Kitty]

I cannot support him any longer. I think I should write him a letter about this, instead of telling him in person. I'm better in letters. Thoughts?

Write it and put the draft up here. Let us review it before you present anything.

I'd suggest you try to write it with one underlying thing in mind to communicate, either: "I need you to do 'X' to support yourself." or "I am unwilling to support you the way I've been doing. I will no longer be paying for 'X'" Consider putting a fixed time deadline into it as well.

There are communication tools to help a pwBPD be more receptive to your message, and we can help with that... .but you have to decide what your line is, and mean it... .or nothing will change; we cannot decide that for you...

[WitzEndWife]

Okay, here's my letter (I don't feel comfortable posting it in a brand new thread):

Dear H,

I wanted to write you a letter because it feels better to communicate this way. I don't forget things, and I can take my time and reflect on the things I want to say.

First, I want you to know how much I love you and how much I appreciate the little things you do for me, like taking care of the cars, and finding cool, fun things for us to to do together. I know that it hasn't been easy these past few months living in a place that's not yours, with people you're not used to living with. It definitely hasn't been easy for me to live so far away from work, or from some of the cool, fun city activities.

I think that both of us would like to be somewhere closer to the city, but I also see an opportunity for us to make the most out of the fact that we do not have the financial burden of living on our own, and pay down debts so that we don't always have to play "catch up" when it comes to finances. That way we can still put money in our pockets while renting an apartment.

Knowing that the current living situation is troubling and depressing to you worries me a lot. As such, I'm looking to cut costs as much as possible so that I can pay down debt as quickly as possible. This isn't easy to do, and I've had to look at our spending pretty closely to see what can be pared down.

1) Groceries. I'll need to keep spending to under $150 weekly. No more big, $300 days.
2) Eating/drinking out. I'll need to limit eating out to a budget of $100 a month.
3) Mobile phones. Our phone bill escalated to up to $300/month while you were driving Uber. I'm going to need to limit our spending here and cut back minutes.
4) Your dental bill. I know that we discussed this moving over to you, and I was the one who lapsed in handing over credentials, but I'd like to move this over to you in two months. It is about $100/month.
5) Clothing and extras. I'm putting a moratorium on new clothes or extra items for the next six months.

It's really important to me to get bills paid down and I am looking forward to your cooperation and support, as my partner, on this.

In the meantime, please know that I am trying my best to do everything I can.

Love,
Me

_______

My first impression after writing this is that it seems disingenuous to what I really feel. I don't want to pay less, or stop paying things, I want him to work. I want him to do something. I don't want him to lie around in bed all day. I feel like I can't ask for that though. Or, even when I have asked for that, even when I've told him that I needed a partner, and that it was important to me to have someone to share the load, he either went into "poor me" victim mode ("I'm worthless," "You should just leave me," etc.), or he agreed with me, promised to look for work, and then shirked his responsibility.

Typical day for him: Sleep until 2PM, get on laptop and read the news and bumble around on Facebook for hours, MAYBE (ambitious day) go for a bike ride for 1-2 hours, spend more time glued to the screen, reading and chatting, MAYBE hand wash the car (again, ambitious day). He might apply to a few jobs one day, and tell me about it, and then a couple of weeks go by and he does nothing.

It's depressing ME to deal with this. I cannot support this person who cannot help themselves, who wants to spend all day in bed, playing around, wasting their life. I feel like my life is wasted, and I don't have a partner, I have a child.

The problem is that, if I kick him out, if I send him back to Canada, he cannot come back, because he's still awaiting approval for his resident visa, and, without it, he wouldn't be allowed back in the country. So, basically, if I throw him out and want him to stay here, he'll be homeless. If I throw him out and he goes back to Canada, it's over for us. So I can't kick him out unless I'm good and done with this. That's just reality.

[formflier]

It's depressing ME to deal with this. I cannot support this person who cannot help themselves, who wants to spend all day in bed, playing around, wasting their life. I feel like my life is wasted, and I don't have a partner, I have a child.
 

While this wasn't part of your letter... .I think I have bolded your truth... .your value.  Correct?

You are obviously fond of your hubby... .(yeah... I get it ... stating the obvious)

But... many of us have realized after the fact that lines have been crossed... .and we are incredulous... .because it's so beyond the pale... .that we didn't think it through ahead of time.

And... .perhaps it's behavior that might be tolerated... .or even encouraged... for a few days.  Hey... I've blown off work here and there and been spontaneous... .had fun... .gone for bike ride... whatever.  

But... .when it has been going on for (how long?)... .you realize... looking forward... .that's not going to work for me

It really is that simple.  I also don't want to agree or disagree with you that his job habits (and other habits) should or shouldn't be deal breakers for you.

I do think you should figure that out, before you talk to him further about this

The best chance of getting him back to work, is when you are ready to "bet the relationship on it".  Honestly, that may not work.  Please don't see this as a manipulation... but as a truth.  

Or... perhaps you figure out that you are ok with him lazing around... .then it would be up to you to manage your emotions about his choices.

Thoughts?

FF

[formflier]

Your first draft was good.

I'm going to challenge you to shorten it... .attempt to get rid of half of it... .while conveying the same thoughts.

Then... .your list of issues... .can you redefine that list as problems to solve... .ask him to come alongside you  to share his thoughts... .and problem solve.

"I would like to hear your thoughts on how to get an additional $2k per month to dedicate to a move out fund.  So we can get our own place."

Thoughts?

FF

[Grey Kitty]

I think writing this draft of the letter was a good exercise, but there are two problems:

1. The letter should be to address YOUR issues, not HIS issues. (He's supposed to be an adult; he can bring up his own issues and probably will!)

2. You aren't ready to change the situation yet.

You say this:

It's depressing ME to deal with this. I cannot support this person who cannot help themselves, who wants to spend all day in bed, playing around, wasting their life. I feel like my life is wasted, and I don't have a partner, I have a child.

You say you cannot support him when he won't support himself. You didn't even ask him to pay all his expenses plus some of the shared expenses in the letter.

Then you said this:

The problem is that, if I kick him out, if I send him back to Canada, he cannot come back, because he's still awaiting approval for his resident visa, and, without it, he wouldn't be allowed back in the country. So, basically, if I throw him out and want him to stay here, he'll be homeless. If I throw him out and he goes back to Canada, it's over for us. So I can't kick him out unless I'm good and done with this. That's just reality.

Q1: How long will his resident visa take? (I know there is uncertainty, but you can guess, I hope)

  If you are stop supporting him financially in the US, there is a really good chance that it is done for good, whether he has a resident visa or not... .after you kick him out, he won't be able to get a good US job from Canada, even with the visa, so the only way you can take him back would be if you were willing to support him again anyhow.

What is it that makes you think he is capable of supporting himself financially? Am I remembering correctly that he's never done so in his adult life, or at least not during your relationship?

[WitzEndWife]

I think you're right that I'm not ready. I want to end things, to end the burden, end the stress, end the pain, but I'm not ready to just kick him out.

I did tell him last night that I couldn't handle the financial stress any more. He said that he would start Ubering again, but I said that Uber put wear and tear on the car. He said that he would continue to look for other work simultaneously.

So, we'll see what he decides to do. I know it's not a permanent solution to the problem, and he probably won't follow through on trying to get another job. We'll see.

[formflier]

When he makes an effort... praise and focus him on solutions.

Ask him to do some figuring regarding wear and tear... .versus what he brings in.  He will need to do that anyway to be ready for taxes.

In fact... .it might be a good tax strategy to have him pay you for the miles so that whatever is left is his "true net" income.   

 FF

[WitzEndWife]

In fact... .it might be a good tax strategy to have him pay you for the miles so that whatever is left is his "true net" income.   

 FF

Good idea! I like that.

[Tagurit]

I'm am new to this support community. This has been an excellent thread for me! This sounds so much like what I am dealing with in regard to my BPD 20 year old daughter. I just have to say thank you as I have gained some wisdom by reading this!
With appreciation,
Tagworth

[WitzEndWife]

I'm am new to this support community. This has been an excellent thread for me! This sounds so much like what I am dealing with in regard to my BPD 20 year old daughter. I just have to say thank you as I have gained some wisdom by reading this!
With appreciation,
Tagworth

So glad you're learning from the thread! Sometimes it's helpful just to read through. You get lots of tips and ideas on the best ways to use the tools that way! Welcome!

[WitzEndWife]

Update: Spoke with my therapist last night. She says I need to be clear to him that I want a partner, that I simply cannot continue in the way that we've been doing, and to set some crystal clear expectations, such as:

I need for my partner to not only find, but maintain a job.
I need my partner to take care of themselves, physically and mentally, which includes maintaining a regular schedule of personal hygiene, nourishment, and physical activity, in addition to in-person group therapy (he's doing Skype sessions now, but there are dbt classes in our area that I would like for him to attend).
Treating family members with respect (i.e. eliminating rude comments, being helpful and kind).

These are bare minimum things I need from a partner. If he is unable to follow through on these things, I cannot continue to be in the relationship. 

[formflier]

 
I agree with everything on the list... .I would likely add to the list for "bare minimums"... .

Does your T work with people with PDs... .BPD in particular.  :)oes your T have a PhD?  Years of experience?

Please understand I'm not at all trying to diminish the advice you are getting... . I am trying to clarify if the "method" of delivering the advice was presented to you, discussed... .and you understood the reasons why the "method"  is important.

Reasons:  Communicating with a pwBPD... .especially one that is in a "bad place"... .and/or "lashing out"... .is similar to talking to someone that uses another language.

That person has some command of your language "English", but their "native" language is completely different that yours.  They "think" in their native language... .they "look at the world" through the lens of their native language and when they get stressed out, their ability to use "English" (your native language)... .goes down... .or goes away.

Hopefully this analogy makes sense.

1. List is good
2.  :)elivery matters

Last:  I would never say the world "minimum" to a BPD man.  (sexist FF comment coming... . )  Men (in general) can tend to be minimalists.  Men with BPDish stuff tend to be more extreme in this.

Much better to focus on "taking the next step"... .with the expectation that there will be "another step"... .and then another.  A relationship is a process... .it doesn't really ever end where both parties sit in their hammocks and ignore it.

FF

[WitzEndWife]

Yes, my therapist has a PhD. She actually specializes in couples therapy (she actually had a TV show for a while, and has been a consultant for shows like Nancy Grace -which is funny bc that's not how I stumbled upon her). I have been working with her for about four years now.

She was the one who first suggested my H had BPD. She's not a specialist, but she has specialists on her team.

She has told me to heap lots of praise on him for the things he does well, and to frame it up as in, "I want nothing more than for our partnership to work, and for us to have a long, happy marriage." She wants me to focus on my feelings, and offer these things as solutions for how to make the partnership work.

I do realize that presenting all of this at once can be overwhelming for BPDs, but I've also presented small "steps" to him, and he uses that as an excuse to do nothing.

[formflier]

Good... .it sounds like you have someone with the right credentials and experience. 

Also realize... there is not just one way to solve this... .not just "one set" of rules.  The critical thing is that you are consistent with whatever approach your try... .and... .most importantly, whenever you set a boundary... .that you hold it.

  She wants me to focus on my feelings, and offer these things as solutions for how to make the partnership work.

So... I would ask her for her thoughts on you defining the problem and ASKING him how he can contribute to solving it.

"Hey babe, we have a common goal to get a place of our own.  Here are my calculations showing a need of $xx per month to get us ready for this next step after X months.  I'm interested in your thoughts on how you can contribute to this goal."

I would think this treats him more like an adult.  Now... .it may not work.  There is NOTHING any PhD or anyone can devise that would "make it work"... .it's all about "best chances". 

Along with "nuance" of the individual situation.  Perhaps there is something your T believes about you or your hubby that would lead her to push for her recommendation OVER mine.  That would be good information to know

I do realize that presenting all of this at once can be overwhelming for BPDs, but I've also presented small "steps" to him, and he uses that as an excuse to do nothing.

Help me understand the relationship between how much you ask of him and the amount he actually does?

Are you saying that there are times when you ask him for 1 thing... .and get nothing.  Yet if you ask him for 10 things... .you reliably get 2 things from the list?

Just want to be clear.

FF

[WitzEndWife]

He kind of works better if I overwhelm him a little bit. Like you said, if I ask for 10 things, I might get 2. If I ask for one thing (and that is something that I need him to do consistently), he digs in his heels, or "yes"s me and neglects to do it.

I think it's more about choice, or control. So, if I ask him to do something, and his only choice is do it or don't do it, he gets angry because he feels that I'm controlling him. But, if I give a list of things, and he does what he wants out of that list, he has made a choice to do them. It feels more like a compromise to him.

[formflier]

I think it's more about choice, or control. So, if I ask him to do something, and his only choice is do it or don't do it, he gets angry because he feels that I'm controlling him. But, if I give a list of things, and he does what he wants out of that list, he has made a choice to do them. It feels more like a compromise to him.

Which is EXACTLY why I don't like the method your T recommended... .and PRECISELY why I would want YOU to define the problem and let HIM decide how he can help... .

Again... she may have a reason WHY she recommended you do things the way she presented it... .I would want you to have a clear answer from her that you completely understand... .and how you apply her recommendation  Role play and that kind of thing.

You are on the right track.

Back to my idea.  I'm going to stay solid on 1 issue... .finances.  Let HIM decide how many options he wants to put in the mix... .

Last:  Stay open... .this is going to be different for you to let him stammer and stumble around and figure out things... .validate... encourage... ask questions.  Don't solve... .

FF

PS
Last:  There is hope.  My wife was not near as bad as your hubby... .she did work hard at home.  She promised to transition full time to the workforce as "part of a deal" we made to move closer to where she grew up.

Well... .she was underemployed for 1.5 years and for a couple weeks now has been a full time teacher with benefits and all that.  That lasts through the end of this school year.  Now that she is doing it, she likes it and I'm hopeful the job will continue next school year and beyond.

[WitzEndWife]

Thanks FF - I appreciate your help! I'll think through how I can present this to H. I want to make it clear that things cannot continue if he does nothing, but I'll give him options on how to solve the problem.

[formflier]

  I want to make it clear 

Not in the first go round... .or perhaps even the second. 

This is NOT about how we see the letter, it's about how he see's it.

For the letter where you tell him to poop or get off the pot...

https://www.christianbook.com/love-must-tough-hope-marriages-crisis/james-dobson/9781414317458/pd/317458?dv=%7Bdevice%7D&en=google&event=SHOP&kw=family-0-20%7C317458&p=1179710&gclid=CIL-75Kw8NICFYa4wAod0yEPYQ

Is the general idea.

FF