Up at Early O'Clock

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

So I'm sitting here at a very early hour where I am, currently "kicked out" of the bedroom by my pwBPD. Our D3 was woken up by some noise outside we think, and she started crying and shouting for ME, not her, which is often the case. My pwBPD says she's hurt, because I'll always be the one she calls. I will go in for "any little thing" and my pwBPD won't.

What I'll probably do is that in another minute I'll go back in, admit to being a hurtful person for spoiling my D3, and be back asleep within the next hour or two. What I SHOULD do is refuse to back down from what I know is true, and when she says "she NEVER calls me" say something like "that must really feel horrible"... .

But I guess I'm not quite there yet.

Thanks for listening.

DB

[DaddyBear77]

So I'm sitting here at a very early hour where I am, currently "kicked out" of the bedroom by my pwBPD. Our D3 was woken up by some noise outside we think, and she started crying and shouting for ME, not her, which is often the case. My pwBPD says she's hurt, because I'll always be the one she calls. I will go in for "any little thing" and my pwBPD won't.

What I'll probably do is that in another minute I'll go back in, admit to being a hurtful person for spoiling my D3, and be back asleep within the next hour or two. What I SHOULD do is refuse to back down from what I know is true, and when she says "she NEVER calls me" say something like "that must really feel horrible"... .

But I guess I'm not quite there yet.

Thanks for listening.

DB

[Grey Kitty]

First off, there's a parenting question, when do you comfort D3, and when do you let D3 feel scared/upset, but work through it herself without running in to rescue her?

I've got no parenting experience, and no idea how to answer that question... .and your wife isn't addressing that question either. She's reacting to her hurt feelings that D3 called for you!

If you aren't sure, try to find some other parents, or resources on how to raise small children, but one way or another, but don't get distracted by the emotional manipulation/abuse your wife is throwing around... .figure out what the right thing to do raising D3 is.


Now, what do you do about your wife's behavior? (I'm guessing this will happen again, even if it is too late for anything different this morning!)

Long-term, I suggest trying to have a conversation with her about how being a good parent means NOT reacting to the feelings that D3 provokes in her, unintentionally (calling for you instead of her!), or intentionally (especially as children grow up they get REALLY good at pushing buttons!).

Immediately, I'd suggest that you tell her that you are going to comfort D3 when she needs to be comforted. Without further discussion (aka JADEing).

Next, if you are now feeling awake, alert, and calm, you could validate her feelings. "Are you upset that she called for me instead of calling for you?" (which could lead to a really good, validating conversation)

OTOH, if you are still groggy, grumpy, or fearful of her dysregulation/raging, your validation isn't going to be good enough/sincere enough, so don't try.

Or if you gave validation a shot, but she didn't open up, and started attacking/criticizing/berating you instead, time to cut your losses.

In that case I'd try something like "I'm too tired; I need to get back to sleep now." (Possibly followed with an invitation to snuggle, if you think there's any chance of her accepting that!)

And be ready to head for the couch and sleep for a few hours peacefully on your own, if she doesn't accept that.

Or just head to the couch in the first place if you aren't up for the conversation, instead of heading back.

[DaddyBear77]

Thank you Grey Kitty - as always, your advice seems spot on.

First off, there's a parenting question, when do you comfort D3, and when do you let D3 feel scared/upset, but work through it herself without running in to rescue her?

I rescue. My default, gut, "hair on the back of my neck" response is to leap up, see what's wrong, ask questions, reassure, comfort, and help bring things back to calm.

Long-term, I suggest trying to have a conversation with her about how being a good parent means NOT reacting to the feelings that D3 provokes in her

These conversations have historically been unsuccessful. My uBPDw / uNPDw tends to use a particular technique whereby she attacks my credibility in various ways. I believe it's a frantic effort to prevent anything negative from "landing" on her (e.g., she feels guilty that maybe D3 DID need to be comforted, but instead of acknowledging that, she'll blame ME for "creating" that feeling. At that point, she'll usually try and discredit my parenting skills, which hits me at a very personal level, and then it's all down hill. Even if I don't JADE (which I usually do), the possibility of productivity has now dropped to near zero.

Immediately, I'd suggest that you tell her that you are going to comfort D3 when she needs to be comforted. Without further discussion (aka JADEing).

Once or twice I actually did this - just went into D3's room when she was upset despite pwBPD's objections. Each time, she would come into the room right behind me, grab D3 out of my arms (if I was holding her), and with her in my arms, told me to leave them alone. It was very effective on her part - I quickly learned it's better to convince pwBPD, either through honest conversation (preferred) or manipulation (i.e., putting the needs of D3 above my need for honest, constructive dialog)

Next, if you are now feeling awake, alert, and calm, you could validate her feelings. "Are you upset that she called for me instead of calling for you?" (which could lead to a really good, validating conversation)
... .

Or if you gave validation a shot, but she didn't open up, and started attacking/criticizing/berating you instead, time to cut your losses.

We've had some good conversations exactly along these lines - problem is, they're (a) only possible after a long period of soothing and calming, and (b) even if it starts out good, it is the classic eggshells situation where the calm often gets shattered quickly by the wrong inflection / the wrong tone of voice, etc, etc.

All too often, it's a "cut losses" situation.

In that case I'd try something like "I'm too tired; I need to get back to sleep now." (Possibly followed with an invitation to snuggle, if you think there's any chance of her accepting that!)

And be ready to head for the couch and sleep for a few hours peacefully on your own, if she doesn't accept that.

Or just head to the couch in the first place if you aren't up for the conversation, instead of heading back.

So here's where I need to get a much better exit plan.

Most of the time, I sail through every single one of your suggested steps and nothing works, so I end up on the "or just head down to the couch" plan. My phone buzzes. Then it rings. Then I turn it off. Then pwBPD shows up. She shouts, she cries, she pleads. Once I actually managed to lie there unresponsive / minimally responsive for 45 minutes. And yep - here's the thing - she learned to just try longer and harder and go right for the stuff that works.

So, yeah, I guess one thing I'll say is that this is an awesome outline of some very good steps to take BEFORE I bail out and regroup. I think I've learned that I can't expect a positive, reasonable response, so I need to just accept that and work on my OWN actions and reactions. Maybe if I repeat that to myself 1,000 times it'll eventually sink in ;-)

DB

[Grey Kitty]

Once or twice I actually did this - just went into D3's room when she was upset despite pwBPD's objections. Each time, she would come into the room right behind me, grab D3 out of my arms (if I was holding her), and with her in my arms, told me to leave them alone. It was very effective on her part - I quickly learned it's better to convince pwBPD, either through honest conversation (preferred) or manipulation (i.e., putting the needs of D3 above my need for honest, constructive dialog)

Put D3 first, ahead of your conflict with your wife.

If you believe D3 needs comfort/support and your wife disagrees, go do the right thing by D3.

If she takes D3 from you and comforts D3 / takes care of D3's needs properly, you don't have do anything more, and are free to leave when she asks you to. The problem (D3 upset) is being addressed.

If she treats D3 badly upon taking D3 away from you, that is a whole 'nuther game!

Most of the time, I sail through every single one of your suggested steps and nothing works, so I end up on the "or just head down to the couch" plan. My phone buzzes. Then it rings. Then I turn it off. Then pwBPD shows up. She shouts, she cries, she pleads. Once I actually managed to lie there unresponsive / minimally responsive for 45 minutes.

You obviously need an additional level to protect yourself in that situation. You told her to leave you alone, and went to the couch. (I'd suggest you start by turning your phone off when you head for the couch!)

When she shows up, tell her you need to sleep, and if she won't let you sleep, you will go elsewhere to have peace to sleep. Then leave to spend the night in a motel, sleeping in your car, or on somebody's couch or in their guest room. Even if it is the middle of the night.

She probably threaten you with all kinds of things as you are leaving. Let her make threats, and leave anyways. (Unless she threatens harm to D3, or harm herself, in which case, you may need to call 911!)

Plan ahead--you KNOW it will come to this sooner or later. So when you head for the couch, make sure you have your phone, charger, keys, wallet, whatever you will wear on your drive, and a change of clothes for the morning ready to grab (if not already packed in the trunk or hidden in the garage!)

Plan ahead for sleeping options too. Know where the motels are. Ask friends or family ahead if you can crash on their couch at 3am on short notice due to a conflict in the middle of the night. If you think you will sleep in a walmart parking lot, have a sleeping bag in the car.

If you think she will follow you in her car, be ready to drive to a police station first.


FYI, I'm aware that this kind of ordeal won't result in a peaceful, restful night of sleep for you, especially the first time--That's not really the point though--if it becomes a regular occurrence, you may get rest at it eventually, but for now, you need change the dynamic--she has figured out that if she chases you down to the couch, she can get what she wants from you, that you will cave.

[Notwendy]

This is tough.

My first thought when reading this is who is the 3 year old? You are trying to sleep and both your daughter and wife are waking you up for attention. But only one of them is acting age appropriately.

I don't see this stopping until you are ready or willing to stand up to her- for your sleep, for your right to care for your D. Yes, 3 year olds will push the limits, but that is normal for a 3 year old.

It is good that you understand your part in this in giving in. But this is going to perpetuate the behavior in the long run.

[Notwendy]

I know that I have taken the path of least resistance in the moment- to get some sleep at night- both with a spouse and child. I think we are vulnerable to this when we are tired, or hungry, or irritable. While the parenting advice is to let the child learn to calm him/herself down at night, I know that I have given in - knowing it is the quickest way to get back to sleep.

I think it helps to look at this through the question- is this the loving thing to do? If we continually appease and soothe- whether it is a child or an adult- we interfere with this necessary skill- to learn to calm themselves. We risk making them dependent on us- which makes them dependent. The most loving thing may be the hardest for us- let them learn to manage their feelings.

With a child, it is a process. We calm an infant, develop bedtime rituals, use transition objects like a blankie- all with the goal of the child learning to sleep through the night on their own. We have to learn to manage our own distress when they are distressed. We may think we are rescuing them from their own bad feelings, but actually- we are rescuing ourselves- and diminishing their independence when we jump to soothe them. Is this acting out of love or is it self serving?

IMHO, trying to be the "good guy" is self serving. Sometimes, we are the bad guy for someone's own good. Sometimes our kids and spouses are truly angry at us. For kids, it is because you didn't say yes to candy before dinner, the toy they saw in the store, the car keys, getting grounded because they missed curfew- you get the picture. To be a good parent, and perhaps husband to a pwBPD- you will sometimes be the bad guy.

Yes, you are going to give in in the middle of the night- cause you want to sleep and if your wife is constantly pestering you- you have to sleep. Other posters have mentioned sleep disruptions and how to set boundaries. This is a tough one- when we are tired, it is hard to enforce boundaries.

I think GK's suggestion to leave to enforce your sleep boundary is good. Be careful that this isn't construed as "abandonment" legally. I don't think going to a hotel a few nights is this. I know other posters have done this. We need sleep to function- and so think of this as not about her, but about you and getting the sleep you need. Keeping a packed bag in your car with a change of clothes and toiletries so you can do this is helpful. 

[AllNightLong]

Hey Daddybear!

I feel for you and recognize the situation all too well.

My wife can wake up cranky in the middle of the night as well and start an argument and i've learnt that it's so not worth it.

I think you should talk to her about this in daytime and keep comforting your D3 cause the children IS the most important person in this situation.

Trust your instinct and keep on doing what you think is right...    

[formflier]

Ahh... .gotta love parenting discussions with a pwBPD... .good luck finding compromise... .   


I do think you should try... .and I think you should start off by listening to what she wants to happen... .and why... regarding bedtime and a child waking up in the middle of the night.

Look at this as a series of conversations... .first couple... .don't fix anything... .just listen, reflect back... make sure you understand where she is at.

So... you are a rescuer... .  A lot of us are... .or we are a fixer... .helper... .  All on the same spectrum...

I'm glad you see this.  Put this in context of raising a child.  Your goal is to train them to rescue themselves... and not need you.  That is a tough place to be... .to work yourself out of a job.


After you have listened to your wife... .some tips.

Talk with your kid about it during the day... .randomly... .normalize talking about things... .especially things they are scare or anxious about.

Identify their feeling/help them identify it.  If they get it wrong... .don't correct right away... .  Describe what you see/or saw at night... ."Oh baby... your eyes are all puffy... .are you sad?" 

Then... .ask them what would be helpful.  That will tell you where they are at... .your job is to gently and wisely wean them down from that.

So... ."Oh... Daddy... it would be great if you would come sleep with me for the rest of the night... ."  You:  "Wow... I could see how that would help... ."

"You know... .let's try Daddy coming in for a few nights and giving you a kiss and drink of water... ."

then... .

"Hey listen... .we're going to try letting you go back to sleep on your own for a few nights... .  We'll talk in the morning about how it went... "  Pretty soon... it will be a non issue.

Very important to keep the talk going... .because that will help you identify "normal anxiety"... .from something really happening.

Many of the things you will be doing to help your kid... .are good for your pwBPD as well... .don't aim them at them... .but don't hide it either.

Parenting is a tough place for boundaries... .because... .by definition... you share the boundary with someone else... who happens to be disordered. 

"letting them cry it out" is a perfectly valid parenting style...   Personally... .I think more involvement/guidance is better.

FF

[DaddyBear77]

This is awesome advice everyone so thank you. I've followed a lot of it, and things have gone OK the past couple of nights.

Co-parenting with uBPDw is a big issue - we differ on parenting philosophy in some key ways, so this "cry it out" and "sleep training" stuff has been a major source of conflict since D3 was an infant. I believe my philosophy is based on love and compassion but also by a personal need to be the rescuer and hero. Balancing those is one of my biggest challenges as a parent.

But focusing back on the pwBPD and the issues I have with her - pwBPD has concluded that my difference in philosophy is based on a desire to "prove her wrong," to "punish her for standing up against my parents," "just to be contrary, because how could a dad have any REAL ideas about parenting?"

I CAN be the best dad I know how to be, and I can learn how to teach my D3 the skills she needs, and I can do it all with love and compassion.

But can I do all that while things stay the same with my pwBPD? Probably not.

[formflier]

But can I do all that while things stay the same with my pwBPD? Probably not.

Hey... .I'm going to disagree with you here.  I'm also going to challenge you to focus your love and compassion.  I'm glad you have a lot of it.  Frankly... .you're going to need it... .as will your family.

Listen... your pwBPD is a bit "short" or "inadequate" (by worldly and your standards)... .in the love an compassion department. 

So... .you two can be a good compliment to each other.  Since you are the one with the excess love and compassion... .it's YOURS TO STEWARD.  My hope for you is that you can continue to gain wisdom in healthy ways to express this AND to continue to gain insight into your need to rescue.

Last thought for now... .an example of focusing love and compassion.

Focus on listening and understanding your wife's values and desires... .then... .

"Hey babe... I'm hoping there is a way we can come together on bedtime.  What do you think is a reasonable compromise?"

See how you offer to "come together".  Realize she will "push apart"... that is her natural instinct... .be patient and don't react.  Let her deal with the comfortableness that creates.

Thoughts?

FF

[DaddyBear77]

Hey... .I'm going to disagree with you here. 
... .
Thoughts?

Good call out, FF - on the level you're speaking about, I certainly CAN be the dad I want to be / need to be. Maybe it's harder work than it would be in other circumstances, but I get your point.

There's one important thought that comes to mind: I am allowing my pwBPD / pwNPD to say some really nasty things to me. I look her in the eyes while she describes this horrible, monstrous person, and as much as I try and depersonalize it, it's ME she's talking about. And words hurt a lot more than I ever realized they would. And I am full of anger and resentment and pain and hostility. So much so that it comes across every day now at my job. And I'm isolated from friends and family so I rarely get context from them. And I work at my home office a lot.

So when I say "... .while things stay the same with my pwBPD," THIS is what I mean. With so much hurt following me every day of my life, I'm not sure I can do what I need to do.

Just FYI, this is the essence of what I spend most of my T sessions talking about.

[AllNightLong]

Good call out, FF - on the level you're speaking about, I certainly CAN be the dad I want to be / need to be. Maybe it's harder work than it would be in other circumstances, but I get your point.

There's one important thought that comes to mind: I am allowing my pwBPD / pwNPD to say some really nasty things to me. I look her in the eyes while she describes this horrible, monstrous person, and as much as I try and depersonalize it, it's ME she's talking about. And words hurt a lot more than I ever realized they would. And I am full of anger and resentment and pain and hostility. So much so that it comes across every day now at my job. And I'm isolated from friends and family so I rarely get context from them. And I work at my home office a lot.

So when I say "... .while things stay the same with my pwBPD," THIS is what I mean. With so much hurt following me every day of my life, I'm not sure I can do what I need to do.

Just FYI, this is the essence of what I spend most of my T sessions talking about.

Wow you are describing my own feelings and thoughts. I don't know about you but for now My wife is just getting darker and darker in My eyes for every fight we have.
I know the pain you are feeling and remember, you might feel isolated but there will always be people willing to listen.

Take care!

[formflier]

I look her in the eyes while she describes this horrible, monstrous person, and as much as I try and depersonalize it, it's ME she's talking about.

Just FYI, this is the essence of what I spend most of my T sessions talking about.

Let's break this down to it's simplest form... .

So... .help me understand the location of your eyes... .when such things are coming out of her mouth.
 
It seems apparent that there is no shock that things like that come out of her mouth...  My guess is that you can pretty much guess the content... .perhaps 15 seconds in... .1 minute tops... .correct?

FF

OK... FF hint... .one of the bolded things in the quoted area is healthy... .one is... .

[DaddyBear77]

help me understand the location of your eyes... .when such things are coming out of her mouth.

For scenarios where we "wake up and fight", we're side by side lying in the bed.
Sometimes I'll just lie on my back and stare at the ceiling, or close my eyes. This tends to keep me more calm.
Once I start feeling more awake, more aggressive, angry, insulted, hurt, or if I feel in the moment there's some strategic advantage, I'll roll over and look her straight in the eyes. Very primal. If I try and signal further dominance by sitting up, getting up, etc, she'll counter it with her own moves.
Once I realize I'm not going to get anywhere, or once her moves have broken me down to the point where my tail is between my legs, or maybe for some other reason it's just necessary to end the fight, I'll usually lower my eyes, start to have less eye contact, and just generally signal that I'm the weak one. I'm backing down.

It seems apparent that there is no shock that things like that come out of her mouth...  My guess is that you can pretty much guess the content... .perhaps 15 seconds in... .1 minute tops... .correct?

It's a little more complicated than that, depending on the scenario. The hurtful / painful content is usually interspersed inside semi-productive, important content related to the supposed subject of our discussion. Example: "It's really important to me that our D3 learns to sleep through the night. I believe the best way to do that is to let her cry it out. You're so weak and brainwashed by all this BS on the internet that you'll never be a reliable parent to D3. It's best if I just go in and tell her there will be consequences (punishment) for continuing to call out your name in the middle of the night! I will never be OK with you going in there alone again because I don't trust that you will do the right thing."

Thanks for the questions - it was really important for me to write that stuff down.

[Notwendy]

While these conflicts and discussions may focus on D3 getting up at night, they probably reflect a general pattern of conflict and discussion between the two of you. So as each situation arises, this pattern of dealing with a difference of opinion or wishes prevails.

I think every couple has their differences and disagreements. It makes sense as no two people are exactly alike in their ideas and feelings. However, what is different in a dysfunctional relationship is how these differences are discussed and agreed on. This seems to be a pattern where she gets her way, or else. Her way or there is no peace in your home. I am well familiar with this pattern, played out in my FOO as well as my marriage and it persisted until I was able to say no, I don't want to do this to my H, or be honest with him, and allow him to be upset about it. I do admit that the issues in my marriage are much milder than the ones between my parents, but we are influenced by our FOOs when we choose partners and tend to act out the dysfunction we learned growing up.

Another issue in child rearing is consistency between parents. It may be that both of your ideas are OK forms of dealing with this behavior issue, but the inconsistency and conflict is another element in child rearing that isn't a good thing. One idea is allowing a third party to help you. There are courses- one good one is Parenting with Love and Logic. You may not have access to classes where you are, but maybe there are online resources, books, that the two of you can read together. Approach this as lets both learn parenting techniques- not my way or your way. Perhaps that can help.

She may say things that she feels about you- you are weak, whatever, but the issue you have is to believe them or not. Someone can have any opinion they want about you- but does it make it true? One aspect of good boundaries is to assess what people say about you and decide- is it true or not true, and you can discard what isn't true. Defining someone's reality and feelings is also a form of verbal abuse. She may say what she wants. Your task is to decide to not believe it if it isn't true. Just because she is close to you doesn't give her the right to define who you are. I would bet if I told you you were a bank robber, you wouldn't be wondering "hmm does she have a point here, is this something to take to heart, how can she think that, I need to prove I am not a bank robber?" or would you be thinking- that's not true, I have not robbed a bank, she doesn't know me, she must be making that up. Practice deciding what is true about you and what is not.