Assessing the physical threat...

[Lalathegreat]

Went on a hike and to dinner with a friend this evening that I haven't seen in months. I confided in her maybe HALF of what has been going on with pwBPD. She looked terribly worried and said point blank: "I am SCARED. I have no doubt that given the perfect storm of circumstances he could lose control and KILL YOU."

And yeah, so it got almost physical that one time. I will never forget what I saw in his eyes that night. Hatred. And yeah - absolutely no control.

He phoned during dinner and while I didn't take the call, I could not get him off my mind the rest of the evening. The anxiety of "should I call tonight or will a text suffice? What could he possibly WANT?" Friend noted this telling me that my entire demeanor had changed, that it hurt her to see me so unlike myself.

I guess our conversation made me truly afraid in a way that I never have been before. It doesn't help that there really has been nothing positive in weeks. Every conversation eventually winds it's way to a conflict, no matter how innocently it begins. And still all my fault. Everything my fault.

I think I'm close to making a decision. I just don't understand why it's so hard. Why should leaving feel as challenging as scaling Mt. Everest when there is so little good left?

[Lalathegreat]

So my friend ran a background check... .domestic violence assault from 2005.

Somehow I am not surprised.

[AllNightLong]

Went on a hike and to dinner with a friend this evening that I haven't seen in months. I confided in her maybe HALF of what has been going on with pwBPD. She looked terribly worried and said point blank: "I am SCARED. I have no doubt that given the perfect storm of circumstances he could lose control and KILL YOU."

And yeah, so it got almost physical that one time. I will never forget what I saw in his eyes that night. Hatred. And yeah - absolutely no control.

He phoned during dinner and while I didn't take the call, I could not get him off my mind the rest of the evening. The anxiety of "should I call tonight or will a text suffice? What could he possibly WANT?" Friend noted this telling me that my entire demeanor had changed, that it hurt her to see me so unlike myself.

I guess our conversation made me truly afraid in a way that I never have been before. It doesn't help that there really has been nothing positive in weeks. Every conversation eventually winds it's way to a conflict, no matter how innocently it begins. And still all my fault. Everything my fault.

I think I'm close to making a decision. I just don't understand why it's so hard. Why should leaving feel as challenging as scaling Mt. Everest when there is so little good left?

You should be very proud of yourself that talking to your friends about this. Remember that it's better to take actions before violence occur.

Just follow your gut feeling and it will make you happy.

I'm in a marriage with my wife and she has been violent for almost 10 years against me and I wish so bad i had done many different choices.

Take care of yourself, YOU are the most important person in YOUR life.

[Hopelessandlost]

I feel your fear. I was in a 26 year marriage that had violence in it from long before we took the marriage vows. I thought loving him could change him, make him feel more secure. It all backfired terribly... .I had five children with this man and now I live in fear of my own son who is an exact copy of his father.

I know that look you speak of when they are angry. And I know I have lived my life taking blame for everything... .I also will be having some tough decisions to make regarding my son and although I understand it should be an easy decision to make since my own safety is involved, it isn't ... .

[allienoah]

My friends, too are afraid the emotional, verbal violence will turn physical. there is something in my bfwBPD's demeanor when he is raging that becomes almost surreal. I truly worry about his health, yet I need to protect myself. He gets out of control, and truly can't stop his impulses. what if next time that impulse is to hit me?

[formflier]

Lala,

Does your friend know him?  Has she spent much time with him?

If I remember correctly... .the one time he got physical was at the end of a fairly long episode of circular argument and dysregulation... .correct? 

deep deep breath... .

Please don't read any of this as blame for "causing" him to do things... .even violence... .Please DO read that we (nons) have a responsibility to "not pour more fuel on the fire"

So... that being said, I would caution you to not base to many decisions on your friends worry that he will murder you. 

Especially as you become more self aware... and step away from arguments... .and avoid putting fuel on the fire.

Are there things about your story that concern me... and should concern you.  Yes... absolutely there are.  Time and application of tools will better inform us about how those risks can be managed... .or not.

I would suggest you be thankful for your friend... .and hopefully avoid putting to much thought into her more extreme warnings.

I would tend to suggest that you DO focus on her observations about how you have changed... .  I would also remind you that YOU can change back.  Don't hand a disordered person the power to change you outlook on life... the way you interact with others.  I realize easier said than done.

Step one is a decision to change.  Then start baby steps after that.

Last:  Was the DV a charge or a conviction.  Don't ask him about that... .until you get more facts on what the record says.

FF

[patientandclear]

Lala,

Does your friend know him?  Has she spent much time with him?

If I remember correctly... .the one time he got physical was at the end of a fairly long episode of circular argument and dysregulation... .correct?  

deep deep breath... .

Please don't read any of this as blame for "causing" him to do things... .even violence... .Please DO read that we (nons) have a responsibility to "not pour more fuel on the fire"

So... that being said, I would caution you to not base to many decisions on your friends worry that he will murder you.  

Especially as you become more self aware... and step away from arguments... .and avoid putting fuel on the fire.

Are there things about your story that concern me... and should concern you.  Yes... absolutely there are.  Time and application of tools will better inform us about how those risks can be managed... .or not.

I would suggest you be thankful for your friend... .and hopefully avoid putting to much thought into her more extreme warnings.

I would tend to suggest that you DO focus on her observations about how you have changed... . I would also remind you that YOU can change back.  :)on't hand a disordered person the power to change you outlook on life... the way you interact with others.  I realize easier said than done.

Step one is a decision to change.  Then start baby steps after that.

Last:  Was the DV a charge or a conviction.  :)on't ask him about that... .until you get more facts on what the record says.

FF

I have no idea what the exact trajectory will be with this person; I don't believe there is one inevitable trajectory toward greater physical violence.  (Though honestly, I'm not sure that there is any evidence on which to base my skepticism about that.  In my own case, it did progress from verbal violence to throwing objects near me and breaking my stuff toward greater and greater physical violence.)

Depsite those caveats, I caution against thinking that one can manage someone else's established instinct to gain control through physical violence through some set of skills.

The first time my exH (again, not the BPD man I usually post about here) seriously hurt me, he'd locked me out of the house while I walked our dogs.  I had to get back into the house by crawling through our back window.  My 1 year old daughter was in the house with him.  I couldn't just leave or stay away.  (I realize that without co-habitation and without a baby, there are often more choices, but this is an example of how you just can't know.)

I did NOTHING to pour fuel on any fire.  I re-entered my own house.  A few minutes after I got back in, my exH appeared and hit me so hard I could hear my neck snap.  I thought he was going to kill me and I think he would have had he not been so incapacitated by alcohol and sleeping meds.

Why did it happen?  He was terribly by hurt by something he thought I said. I didn't say that thing.  He interpreted my actions as abandoning him.  I wasn't.  He hurt inside, and I didn't cause it, and I could not have prevented it.  The idea that the person hit could have prevented it is pretty dangerous in most cases.  You just don't know what will set someone off, and once you know the person has previously tried to make himself feel better by physical violence, there is no good reason to think it won't happen again.

[Larmoyant]

So my friend ran a background check... .domestic violence assault from 2005.

Somehow I am not surprised.

If someone gets physical with you even once please be cautious. It’s not about you throwing fuel on the fire. It’s about them not being able to control themselves. Your instincts are telling you something, your friend is helping you and you now have factual information to back up your fears. Please be careful.

[formflier]

Your instincts are telling you something, your friend is helping you and you now have factual information to back up your fears. Please be careful.

Yes yes and yes... .

Please don't hear my downplaying any of this... .All of us face threats... .my point is to put them all in the correct context... .and give them the correct "weight".

I do think there is a time to consider bringing up the DV charge (or conviction... .the details matter)... .that would be after gaining more facts.

If he turns out to be honest about it... .that is a good sign.  If he obfuscates... .  

FF

[patientandclear]

Talking with someone about the fact that they use physical violence to try to achieve control or feel better isn't likely to achieve change. With BPD one can add in the component of shame, a feeling of being investigated, etc. I think the value of that information (the prior DV charge) to you, Lala, is that you have some indication that what you experienced is not some once in a lifetime fluke.

I would not get hung up on conviction versus charge in that past case. You'll never know for sure what happened; people get falsely convicted and people who are guilty get charges dismissed. I work in that system for a living and see little value in going down that rabbit hole.

I am not trying to tell you what to do Lala. I don't know how to weigh the physical violence you've experienced (if I recall correctly) with the other factors. For me, and I've heard this from other DV victims, the words actually hurt more, and the FACT that he would hit me, if that makes sense. The fact that he viewed me as a frustrating object.

But I really don't want to support the idea that you can always manage that kind of rage by exiting at the right time, tip toeing around his triggers, or using some skill set. There was a member here, AlliBaba, who did a valiant job of using the tools with coaching from people here for quite a while; her now-exH just kept getting more and more committed to taking his bad feelings out on their home (broken doors, smashed kitchenware) and there were lots of threads of worse. The skills were not effective no matter how hard she tried. ... .pwBPD are different. Some don't attempt physical control (including the guy I loved with BPD--he acted differently on his bad feelings). But if yours does have a tendency to try to make himself feel better through physical control or lashing out, it's a mistake to think you can manage that by your own choices and actions.

[formflier]

Said another way... .if you get to the point where you are wisely using tools that we teach... and the result of that still seems to be "pouring fuel on the fire... "... .then 

My wife has done some whacky things in the past.  It's not my fault... .but I did play a part.  I can see that now that I look back with knowledge I now have.

By and large she has responded to tools and boundary enforcement.   That is very different than me saying she is happy about it... .

Listen... I like to keep driving you back to the big picture.  Bigger than any one thread.

The threads are important... .evaluating risk, learning tools... .etc etc.  I think you are doing well in many of those.

How would you complete this sentence... ."I am pursuing this relationship because... ."

That's big picture stuff.  Once you sort that out for yourself... .we can help you focus your direction, tools and energy.

Especially because... .as Patientandclear pointed out... .some things are rabbit holes and can take a lot of energy.  You have a limited amount of energy... and I hope you don't waste it on activities that don't directly support your goal.

Thoughts?

FF

[Lalathegreat]

Thank you everyone for weighing in. I think my new fear is twofold. 1) I was pretty carefully cherry picking how much I confided in my friend and she still had that response. Probably more telling is that I really began to see how dysfunctional, frightening, and crazy this all is and I was well aware how much I was leaving off. 2) the domestic violence arrest that was apparently reduced to "malicious mischief" established in a real way that the incident with me was not an isolated incident. And how many other times has it happened? I could have called the cops but didn't. How many other women didn't call?

FF - yes, there had been circular arguing earlier in the evening. But the conversation leading to the spitting and chasing was relatively brief and happened (I believe) because I was trying to physically leave before "he felt heard".

Honestly though, the reality is that I recognize for myself how much this situation has changed me. I know that it's my responsibility to stand up, take control, and Be in charge of my life and happiness. I'm realizing that it will be impossible in a relationship where I've been painted black, vilified, and made to take blame for being abused. Being physically afraid is the frosting on top of all the rest of it.

[formflier]

Honestly though, the reality is that I recognize for myself how much this situation has changed me. I know that it's my responsibility to stand up, take control, and Be in charge of my life and happiness.

There is some duality here that I would hope you would look at.  Perhaps it is just in-artfully written... .

What is the difference in a person that says "this situation has changed me... ." and a person that says "I changed to fit a situation... ."?

Note:  I'm much MORE interested in your answers to that question... than whether or not you stay or go in the r/s... .whether you consider the previous DV charge an issue or not... .or exactly how you employ tools.

It's about mindset... .outlook on life.


FF

[Lalathegreat]

I think more than anything I have changed to fit the situation. I was myself. Then I started walking on eggshells. Did it work? No. Than I started trying to open myself more because that's what he claimed to want. Did it work? No. Then I tried shutting off all the emotions and responding very minimally and only in validating ways. Did it work? No. Then I tried physically walking away. Did it work? No.

I'll grant you that I may not have given any one strategy enough time to be effective.

I think the part that probably most indicates "the situation changed me" is the self doubt that I never had before. I spend such a large amount of time trying to figure out how things are the way they are because of what I did or did not do. Then I have to remember all over again that I didn't cause these things, that my reactions were likely unhelpful, but did not cause pwBPD to be the way he is.

But it's true - I used to go out in the world and just BE. And generally me just being was well received. I just want that feeling back.

[Lalathegreat]

Hmm, I'm reading my response and thinking that it is quite likely that I'm confused on this point. It feels very "chicken or egg" to me.

It's clear that once we were past the honeymoon phase and the conflict began to become more frequent, I began to change my responses and behaviors in an effort to change what was happening. It is probably worth noting that I grew up in a home that pretty classically set me up to be a codependent enabler (only sibling of an autistic brother, always put needs in the back burner, was praised and reinforced for my help in caring for him, carried the expectation of being the only child capable of carrying on the legacy of my super driven high achieving father but always falling short, blah blah blah) so I'm not certain I am capable of standing far enough outside the forest to answer this question.

Did I change in an effort to adapt to the situation? Or did I become so beat down by the situation that it caused me to change? Hmm... .

[allienoah]

Hmm, I'm reading my response and thinking that it is quite likely that I'm confused on this point. It feels very "chicken or egg" to me.

It's clear that once we were past the honeymoon phase and the conflict began to become more frequent, I began to change my responses and behaviors in an effort to change what was happening. It is probably worth noting that I grew up in a home that pretty classically set me up to be a codependent enabler (only sibling of an autistic brother, always put needs in the back burner, was praised and reinforced for my help in caring for him, carried the expectation of being the only child capable of carrying on the legacy of my super driven high achieving father but always falling short, blah blah blah) so I'm not certain I am capable of standing far enough outside the forest to answer this question.

Did I change in an effort to adapt to the situation? Or did I become so beat down by the situation that it caused me to change? Hmm... .

Geez lalathegreat--we are so similar it is scary! I definitely changed my responses to fit the situation. To the point where my closest friends were asking me who I was, and my bfwBPD would tell me I was being who "I was deep down, because I found true love". And there was basis in truth for both. I had never had many bf's and never had the complete (and engulfing) closeness I had with him. I loved the attention, the devotion, the oneness-until it changed. The neediness on his part started surfacing slowly, the control, the whole thing. And I tried everything to placate, support, apologize, make up for the wrong I did (?) it only escalated more and more. There was always another hoop to jump through. So yes I have been beaten down so much that it caused me to doubt who I am and any decision I make. I do miss the old me in a lot of ways.

[Grey Kitty]

But it's true - I used to go out in the world and just BE. And generally me just being was well received. I just want that feeling back.

If you don't like the person you are when you are with a particular person, that is a pretty powerful indication that something is very very wrong.

And if you cannot change yourself back into a person you want to see in the bathroom mirror every morning, that tells you more.

I personally saw myself becoming a shadow of myself that I didn't like during my abusive marriage. And I personally saw myself stand up, and behave in ways that I was proud of within my marriage. It was hard. Incredibly hard. I was lucky in very may ways--Don't feel that there is something wrong with you if you cannot do what I did--You aren't me, and my wife isn't your bf, and what I did may not be possible for you. It also may be too high a risk to even try any more, given the escalation toward physical abuse.