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Author Topic: The line has been crossed... what now..please advise  (Read 524 times)
allienoah
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« on: March 20, 2017, 09:15:20 AM »

Hello all! I just had the weekend from hell with my pwBPD. Friday night we had a great time together, all was good. UNTIL we started having a conversation about one of my close friends. My bf went on a rant as to how could she be a good friend when she knew about my less-than-virtuous activities prior to my divorce and didn't stop me. I replied that I had told her as a friend and she did not condone my acts, and guided me to resolution. I also brought up that his "friends" did the same to him. He went on to tell me that a past incident which was purely emotional, could not have been because "how could someone love you unless they were physical with you". I really took that as insulting as it is a sore subject. He refused to understand me and I proceeded to walk home and leave him. Saturday was a back and forth over how hurt we both felt. Not the most mature thing I agree. Then the kicker... I told him my daughter was coming to stay for the night, and as she intently dislikes him, if we were going to see each other, I would go to his place. Well-he got in his car, came to my house, made me call my daughter and tell her he was there and staying there. I am so ashamed to admit that he had me so brainwashed I actually told her he was staying and that she could get her stuff and go back to the city on the train! I literally almost got sick saying this as I knew it was wrong and that he was bullying me, I was too weak to tell him to kiss off. Well he then said he was going to the train station with me but as we were leaving, got in his own car, called me a liar and a hypocrite and that "my psychiatrist should have fun with me". I picked up my daughter, we were both very upset. I apologized, she actually understood as she knows he "brainwashes" me. I took her to dinner. When we got home, HIS CAR was in the driveway. He was in my house. I had given him a key as my bf long ago. He was in my bedroom,.had taken a shower and said he was staying over! I was shocked. He started yelling at me as to how could I go to dinner when we were fighting. My daughter came in and told him he was to stop yelling at her mother. He then yelled at HER-questioning her medical conditions, judging her behavior, you name it. Of course he was asked to leave. The next morning he calls me and asks why I wasn't answering the phone and was I going to a breakfast we had plans to do. HONEStLY? I blocked him on my phone. He then hours later sent an email saying he is sorry and he loves me and still wants to make this work. I have not responded. I know NC is the way to go right now but I am so very sick over this situation. Any advice will be greatly appreciated... I am at my wits end here.
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Lucky Jim
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« Reply #1 on: March 20, 2017, 10:15:53 AM »

Hey allie, Sorry to hear about your weekend.  It's all so familiar: the circular arguments, the yelling, the stalking, the insults -- all typical BPD behavior.  The problem, as I'm sure you are aware, is that those w/BPD will continue to cross the line.  I'm pretty sure this is not an isolated incident, right?  Only you know when it's time to get off the roller coaster.

LuckyJim
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    A life spent making mistakes is not only more honorable, but more useful than a life spent doing nothing.
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allienoah
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« Reply #2 on: March 20, 2017, 01:20:27 PM »

Yes I know this behavior will continue forever. He is an ill man and I can't cure him. This happens over and over again. I guess the kick for me this time was how he treated my daughter and me with her. It is something that is far out there now. There is no keeping this behind closed doors anymore. He never forced himself so angrily before, but this was scary. So now it is me I need to work on so I can stop feeling badly about this. I need to stop wanting to make him feel better when I feel so horrible.
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Lucky Jim
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« Reply #3 on: March 20, 2017, 01:52:13 PM »

Agree.  Suggest you return the focus to you and your needs.  Don't worry about making him feel better; he's an adult, and you're not responsible for his well-being.  No, you can't cure him.  Yes, his behavior was way over the line.  It is scary when a pwBPD become unregulated.  I should know, having been married to one for 16 years.  What are your gut feelings?  What would you like to see happen next?

LuckyJim
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    A life spent making mistakes is not only more honorable, but more useful than a life spent doing nothing.
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allienoah
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« Reply #4 on: March 20, 2017, 02:33:26 PM »

Thank you luckyjim! I thank you for listening and being able to tell me that it is ok for me to release and get away from this life-sucking situation.
My  gut feeling is that I am going to feel sad and lonely for awhile. He will sit in his self-righteous silence. Eventually he will contact me to say he wants me back. I want to be strong enough when that happens to be able to lovingly say no thank you. I need to work on myself. I have a great deal to offer anyone and he will never see that. I want to see myself live a life of peace and independent thought-outside of my obvious consideration for my children. My children are smart and independent people, so my life with my bf should never have come to this point. It is only through realizing he has BPD that I am able to see he will Never have empathy for me or them. I want him, but only the healthy him, which is unrealistic so I need to reconcile with that.
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Lucky Jim
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« Reply #5 on: March 20, 2017, 04:59:48 PM »

You're welcome.  Think you're on the right path.  Let me suggest that the "healthy him" is more of an illusion than a reality.  Yes, you need to work on yourself.  If I may make another suggestion, it would be to work on loving and accepting yourself just the way you are.  It sounds easy, but is actually pretty challenging for someone, like me or like you, who has been in a BPD r/s.  The goal, in my view, is to love yourself enough that you will never again allow yourself to be the object of someone's abuse.  That's my bottom line, my boundary.

LuckyJim
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    A life spent making mistakes is not only more honorable, but more useful than a life spent doing nothing.
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« Reply #6 on: March 20, 2017, 06:43:58 PM »

     

What a weekend... .



  Of course he was asked to leave. 

Who asked him to leave?

Bravo for getting him out... .

Can you give it a few days before you try to communicate with him?

FF
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« Reply #7 on: March 20, 2017, 07:45:20 PM »

AN--more immediately application of boundaries would have nipped this particular set of events in the bud, as I sense you see. You'd invited your daughter, period, and were honoring her known condition for coming (that he not be there). When he came over and asked you to call her, the right answer was no, of course not; I care for you but I've made a commitment to my kid. He would not like that, but the chips needed to fall where they may.

Why didn't you? Is it truly brainwashing or is there an element of physical fear? I think it bears further investigation what led you to make that phone call rather than telling him "no way." He needs to know such techniques will not work or you can expect to see them again and again.

I say this from the perspective of someone who pandered to and placated an angry abusive man for quite a few years, out of desire to make it momentarily "better" and avoid an explosion. One of the things that caused me to draw a line is that he wanted me to compromise my relationship with another dear friend. Somehow that was it for me. At some point, something will go too far for you. Maybe that's what you meant with the subject line of this thread. Deciding what you will not erode or allow him to erode is really important.  
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allienoah
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« Reply #8 on: March 21, 2017, 08:51:26 AM »

AN--more immediately application of boundaries would have nipped this particular set of events in the bud, as I sense you see. You'd invited your daughter, period, and were honoring her known condition for coming (that he not be there). When he came over and asked you to call her, the right answer was no, of course not; I care for you but I've made a commitment to my kid. He would not like that, but the chips needed to fall where they may.

Why didn't you? Is it truly brainwashing or is there an element of physical fear? I think it bears further investigation what led you to make that phone call rather than telling him "no way." He needs to know such techniques will not work or you can expect to see them again and again.

I say this from the perspective of someone who pandered to and placated an angry abusive man for quite a few years, out of desire to make it momentarily "better" and avoid an explosion. One of the things that caused me to draw a line is that he wanted me to compromise my relationship with another dear friend. Somehow that was it for me. At some point, something will go too far for you. Maybe that's what you meant with the subject line of this thread. Deciding what you will not erode or allow him to erode is really important.  


This was a situation where I absolutely placated him, at the cost of my own integrity. I wasn't physically afraid, I was emotionally afraid. I was afraid of the explosion, accusations, the threats to leave me-yes I am completely in codependent/caretaker role-and I didn't choose to stand up to him. It is crystal clear to me that I should have enforced my boundary from the start. What do I do with that info now? I blame myself for the whole blowup and feel badly that I "caused" him to dysregulate to such a degree. It's sickening actually.

   

What a weekend... .



Who asked him to leave?

Bravo for getting him out... .

Can you give it a few days before you try to communicate with him?

FF

I asked him to leave. I have been NC with him for 3 days now. I am sick to my stomach trying to make some sense of all of this.
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« Reply #9 on: March 21, 2017, 09:27:04 AM »

I hope you can be compassionate toward yourself here. It takes a while to stop being surprised that someone you love and who says he loves you and sometimes acts like it, would do something like he did when he pressured you to call your daughter.

His choice ultimately caused what happened; even if you could have shut down the chain of events earlier, it was not you who caused it.

 To apply the boundaries it sounds like you believe in (and I applaud them!), you'll have to have the intestinal fortitude to withstand his disapproval and relationship threats. What's odd is that once you accept that he will act like that and you aren't going to be deterred, and you are pleasant and matter of fact and sure of your own choice and decisive, his bluster and "retaliation" will lose a lot of its weight and scariness. But you'll only see that on the other side of trying it.
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« Reply #10 on: March 21, 2017, 10:04:06 AM »

Trying to cut myself a little slack here. I always expect he will act like an adult the next time, or he will understand my point of view. I get sucked in because with any other topic but my children and friends, he looks to me for guidance, and suggestions and completely honors my opinions. Too bad the taboo issues happen to be the ones closest to my heart. I admit that intestinal fortitude is not my strong point. I cower at the thought of making him angry. And I feel guilty because I actually did tell him I was making him a priority. He is just unable to compromise or understand how anything like this makes me feel. Am I wrong in thinking that going NC now IS in fact enforcing the boundary that he can NOT show up at my home and proceed to shout at me nor my daughter. I do not want to be manipulative, passive aggressive or anything. Honestly I know deep down if I reached out he would answer, but what he did is NOT ok.
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« Reply #11 on: March 21, 2017, 10:57:43 AM »

  I always expect he will act like an adult 

I think this is what you need to build on... .and take on as a core value... .or expectation of him... .and you.

When either of of those are outside of your expectations... .let's say you are having a bad day... or him... .pause the relationship and take some space.

That will help many of the issues.

This will also help you because your values and expectations are something you can succinctly communicate.

"I expect people in my life to behave as an adult.  Please stop... .xyz"  then based on his response... .evaluate boundary enforcement.

Finally:  I too want to encourage you to be kind to yourself.  Reach out when you feel ready... .your timeline... . 

FF
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« Reply #12 on: March 22, 2017, 09:14:28 AM »

So yesterday late afternoon, he reached out and I took the call. He was very apologetic and humble. Today is my birthday and we had plans to go out. He asked me if I would still go out with him to celebrate. As a result of his behavior this past weekend, and going NC I never expected to continue with our plans. My daughter asked me to go out as she knew I was hurting and didn't want to me to be alone on my bday. I agreed and we set plans. There is more to the plan-she is having 2 friends and herself stay at my house to be picked up very early tomorrow for a flight. I agreed AGAIN not thinking I would be seeing/talking to my bf. So of course he called me, and freaked out when I told him I had made other plans. He accused me of not giving him a chance to go forward-we all know I have done this a million times. He accused me of lying again, wanted me to cancel with her to prove I was committed to him. I refused. This is a boundary I am not allowing him over. I am NOT cancelling with my daughter. Of course he accepts no responsibility for why this whole situation arose in the first place. I'm sorry, but taking space and going NC doesn't mean keeping dinner plans. I calmly validated his feelings being hurt, told him I could just imagine how sad and disappointed he was. I told him I was keeping my current plan and we should both continue our "space" time. There's too much hurt. And truthfully, at my T visit yesterday, when relating the weekend story of how he showed up at my house and screamed at me and my daughter, my T told me I need to accept that I am in an emotionally abusive relationship, he was completely dysregulated, and she was afraid he would escalate. She was fearful for me as she heard how he was screaming at me on the phone when I was walking into her office. I am really confused. THis morning he wished me a happy birthday by text and told me he hopes I gain strength and commitment in my future. What the heck?
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« Reply #13 on: March 22, 2017, 09:38:19 AM »

Hey allienoah, I admire your courage and think you did the right thing by keeping plans with your daughter, which shows good boundaries.  Agree, suggest you continue with your "space time."  Abuse, verbal or physical, is unacceptable and that's something to remain firm, I mean really firm, on.  In my view his text this a.m. was just an attempt to draw you back in.  Suggest you disregard.  I understand you feel confused, but that's probably because you are changing a pattern and creating a healthier dynamic.  I think you'll adjust and find that it feels good to take care of oneself for a change.

LuckyJim
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« Reply #14 on: March 22, 2017, 10:40:56 AM »

He was very apologetic and humble.


  He accused me of not giving him a chance to go forward-we all know I have done this a million times. He accused me of lying again, wanted me to cancel with her to prove I was committed to him.


 She was fearful for me as she heard how he was screaming at me on the phone when I was walking into her office. I am really confused. THis morning he wished me a happy birthday by text and told me he hopes I gain strength and commitment in my future. What the heck?

For each of these things... .the answer to What the heck is that is how he felt... .in that moment  He was likely completely sincere and humble... .and felt that in such a powerful way... .he had little memory of something else.

Then... .he accuses you... .and has little memory of being humble.

Notice he tries to externalize his stuff... .he want YOU to do xyz to help the r/s.  What is he willing to do to help the r/s... .or more specifically... .to stabilize himself.

That would be "true humility".

OBTW... .Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)   on holding the boundary and spending time with your daughter.

FF
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« Reply #15 on: March 22, 2017, 11:17:22 AM »

Thank you luckyjim and FF for your words of support at a time when I am really questioning myself.
For each of these things... .the answer to What the heck is that is how he felt... .in that moment  He was likely completely sincere and humble... .and felt that in such a powerful way... .he had little memory of something else.

Then... .he accuses you... .and has little memory of being humble.

Notice he tries to externalize his stuff... .he want YOU to do xyz to help the r/s.  What is he willing to do to help the r/s... .or more specifically... .to stabilize himself.

That would be "true humility".

OBTW... .Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)   on holding the boundary and spending time with your daughter.

FF

Interesting, he is constantly asking me during these rages "what are you going to do to make this better"-
and that always means to give in to him/give him what he wants. It's never enough for me to say anything else. In this case the only thing that would make it better would be if I cancelled.
Thank you also for bringing to mind that in each phase of this situation he really means what he says AT THAT TIME--and we all know how quickly that can change. I should keep that in mind.
Truthfully I hope he does not reach out again to me today. I have had enough to last a long time in these passed few days. I'm emotionally exhausted. And I am having anxiety that he will "pull" something tonight when I am out with my daughter (show up at house again, bombard me with texts/calls)
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« Reply #16 on: March 22, 2017, 12:10:31 PM »

  "what are you going to do to make this better"-

So... .the solution (this is a general... big picture solution)  is to "hand it back to him".  Or at a minimum, make sure he knows you aren't going to "pick it up".

"I appreciate the humility you expressed about your role in our conflict.  Thank you.  It would mean a lot to me for you to also express the steps you will be taking to help bring us together again."

"I'm still hurt over our conflict.  I need time to process and think clearly.  Please respect my need to heal.  Can we plan to touch base via phone on Saturday afternoon?"

So... .this is you "gently" setting a boundary... .at the same time expressing that you want to come together... .  Do you see that?  You DO need to address the positive things he has done (which is in the statement)... .no need to nitpick every other thing he did wrong.

The healthy things he does gets a reaction  Ignore the rest... .completely.

Then... .take the space.  He doesn't have to agree


and that always means to give in to him/give him what he wants. It's never enough for me to say anything else. In this case the only thing that would make it better would be if I cancelled.

According to him... .

He doesn't get a vote in what you do... .  You should be a good partner and listen (while he is be respectful) and make sure you understand him... .  Perhaps reflect back...

"So... .let me make sure I understand.  You want me to cancel my current plans to do something with you?"   Pause... .listen... .

"I see... .I'm sorry to disappoint you about tonight... .I'm going ahead with my current plans.  Can I take you out for lunch on Saturday?"

Stay neutral... .let him do whatever.   When he gets abusive... .end the conversation.  Otherwise... hand the issue back to him... .or leave it on the floor.

Thank you also for bringing to mind that in each phase of this situation he really means what he says AT THAT TIME--and we all know how quickly that can change. I should keep that in mind.

Keep that in mind to soothe yourself.  Think of it like a thunderstorm... .with big thunder.  They can be scary... .you go inside for a bit and take care of yourself.  Then... .come out and enjoy the fresh air after the storm has passed.

Yeah... .storms can be frustrating... .they can change our plans, the critical thing is that we act appropriate for ourselves, when faced with a storm.


Truthfully I hope he does not reach out again to me today.

Then... .take steps to take care of you.  Don't look.  Block... .whatever. 

I have had enough to last a long time in these passed few days. I'm emotionally exhausted. And I am having anxiety that he will "pull" something tonight when I am out with my daughter (show up at house again, bombard me with texts/calls)

Think about it to figure out what you will do if he shows up... .then... .proceed with your day, with the understanding that he he does X... .you will do Y... .as you have thought through when things were calm.

FF
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allienoah
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« Reply #17 on: March 22, 2017, 02:00:17 PM »

So... .the solution (this is a general... big picture solution)  is to "hand it back to him".  Or at a minimum, make sure he knows you aren't going to "pick it up".

"I appreciate the humility you expressed about your role in our conflict.  Thank you.  It would mean a lot to me for you to also express the steps you will be taking to help bring us together again."

"I'm still hurt over our conflict.  I need time to process and think clearly.  Please respect my need to heal.  Can we plan to touch base via phone on Saturday afternoon?"

So... .this is you "gently" setting a boundary... .at the same time expressing that you want to come together... .  Do you see that?  You DO need to address the positive things he has done (which is in the statement)... .no need to nitpick every other thing he did wrong.

The healthy things he does gets a reaction  Ignore the rest... .completely.

Then... .take the space.  He doesn't have to agree


According to him... .

He doesn't get a vote in what you do... .  You should be a good partner and listen (while he is be respectful) and make sure you understand him... .  Perhaps reflect back...

"So... .let me make sure I understand.  You want me to cancel my current plans to do something with you?"   Pause... .listen... .

"I see... .I'm sorry to disappoint you about tonight... .I'm going ahead with my current plans.  Can I take you out for lunch on Saturday?"

Stay neutral... .let him do whatever.   When he gets abusive... .end the conversation.  Otherwise... hand the issue back to him... .or leave it on the floor.

Keep that in mind to soothe yourself.  Think of it like a thunderstorm... .with big thunder.  They can be scary... .you go inside for a bit and take care of yourself.  Then... .come out and enjoy the fresh air after the storm has passed.

Yeah... .storms can be frustrating... .they can change our plans, the critical thing is that we act appropriate for ourselves, when faced with a storm.


Then... .take steps to take care of you.  Don't look.  Block... .whatever. 

Think about it to figure out what you will do if he shows up... .then... .proceed with your day, with the understanding that he he does X... .you will do Y... .as you have thought through when things were calm.

FF

I hear you. I have to stop being afraid of him all the time and keep myself responsible for my actions only. Getting sucked into the tornado does no one any good. I will work on clearer validation when I do (?) speak with him. It makes me so sad that he is stuck in this place. However, I can't allow this abuse to continue.
I think a difficult part of dealing is that he goes on impulse. He wants to talk something to death -not leave until it is solved... etc When this happens I need to remove myself quicker-I know where it heads.
You are right though about pointing out the positives-I think this will go far with him
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« Reply #18 on: March 22, 2017, 03:34:12 PM »

You've got alot to process here, and seem to be going ofrward well, considering the chaos and conflict you are dealing with... .but I do want to address one thing:

When we got home, HIS CAR was in the driveway. He was in my house. I had given him a key as my bf long ago. He was in my bedroom,.had taken a shower and said he was staying over! I was shocked.

You gave him a key in good faith, for good reasons. He seems to be proving that he is NOT trustworthy in how he uses it. In your shoes, I'd say he's lost the privilege of a key to your house.

Fixing that would be another scary confrontation, potentially. I can see two ways to deal with it if you want to:

1. Ask him to return the key. (If you have a key to his place, offering to return it would be reasonable.)

He isn't likely to be happy about this, to say the least. He might get violent. He might refuse to return it. He might have made a copy and not told you.

2. Change the locks.

Obviously, that is even more of a provocation to him... .but it does guarantee that he won't have a key, unlike option 1. The conversation where you tell him you did this could be worse than asking for the key back.

You also have the option of asking for the key back, and changing the lock if you get any bad response from him, and especially if he refuses to return it.
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« Reply #19 on: March 22, 2017, 03:40:42 PM »


Is this an apartment?  Are the locks yours... or someone elses?

Boy... .wow... .I can't believe I missed the detail of him having a key... .and abusing it.

My recommendation on this is to change locks/rekey and never mention it.

If he ever confronts you... ."there was unauthorized access to my home and I decided to change the key"  It's honest... doesn't blame him... .and is succinct.

How many locks are we talking about.

FYI... .I would NOT trust him to return the key without making a copy. 

FF
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« Reply #20 on: March 22, 2017, 03:44:49 PM »

I  I will work on clearer validation when I do (?) speak with him.

Can you give us an example of how you validate?

Validation is great... .but done wrong, causes more harm than good.  Much more important to understand "invalidation" and avoid that like the plague.



It makes me so sad that he is stuck in this place

I know we are tossing a lot at you.  The big lessons come not from us teaching small details... .but mindset.  

pwBPD will toss whacky stuff at you that you are not prepared for.  The correct mindset will limit the damage.

Instead of "being mad"... .I would suggest "being confident" that he can sort this out himself... .then move on with your life.

Yeah... .when I first tried that on it seemed radical as well.  

You can still be sad... .but the dominant attitude is confidence in his adulthood... .and the fortitude to leave him alone while he sorts it out for himself.

FF
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What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Posts: 268


« Reply #21 on: March 23, 2017, 12:04:13 PM »

The key is to my house. And thank you for the suggestions about how to get it back. I'm new at this process of validating but I usually try to say something like (in this instance) " I'm sorry you are so hurt and angry, you must feel so frustrated with all this. I know you wanted me to spend my birthday with me to make it special for me. The scene at my house on Saturday threw me and as we weren't speaking, I made other plans.

Then he would respond with "you know we always fight and break up and we're back the next day"
And he would be right. but this time when he went off the rails, I acted for myself and he can't understand that.
As a note, he left me alone last night so dinner went very well and relaxed with my daughter. She is now more convinced than ever that I should leave him of course and started to speak ill of him but I shut that down. I do still love this man.
One other thing, after work yesterday he sent a text asking if I would go to couples therapy with him.
I told him I would think about it-that's all. We are still very LC.
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