How to not become resentful

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

New to the board... .hello.

My fiancé (we have been together for nearly 3 years) and I have blended our families (12 boy mine, 10 girl his, 8 girl his) pretty smoothly. We have great routines, fun vacations, structure intermingled with play time, etc. I think we are generally pretty happy at our house.

His ex wife, over the course of the last 3 years, has become bitter, angry, and hateful with all of our happiness:
- She used to send emails/texts on an hourly basis of everything we were doing wrong to mess up her life -- not returning Tupperware containers from lunches, not buying the right shoelaces for a pair of tennis shoes, being slave drivers by expecting them to do their homework before playing, feeding them unhealthy snacks (i.e., not organic potato chips, but an orange that may or may not have been organic), etc.
- She is a catastrophiser (always worried she will be attacked by Muslims on the train, won't fly because the plane might explode, at the sign of a cough, she has the girls into the doctor for strep tests and they come back with antibiotics even though it "may or may not be strep" and projects all of these worst-case scenarios onto us by forbidding us to ride the train, forbidding us to travel, and yelling at us when we don't keep the antibiotics on ice at every moment in case they become bacterially infested (I wish I were kidding).
- She is insecure -- whenever the kids are at our house, she is constantly texting them to get reassurance that they aren't having much fun over with us, and they are reassuring her that they still love her in subtle ways because, I honestly believe, they subconsciously know that she needs it.
- She is a victim -- things that are outside of her control merit language like, "They screwed us over" and "We got screwed!"
- She cannot set boundaries with the girls -- Older one was diagnosed with an LD and needs to be reading daily for 45 minutes. "I just can't get her to read at my house. Can you have her read double at yours?" (But then we become slave drivers for having them read AND do homework at our house. *eyeroll*)
- She is an avoider -- Really has a hard time dealing with real world items and escapes regularly to tabloids, holes up with her sister/mom to watch TV, and only has a couple of friends because all of the others have "screwed her over" in one way or another (i.e. probably called her out for being extreme). An example of this: she wouldn't admit that her daughter has an LD and wouldn't even listen to the reading instructor and principal that she needs summer tutoring.

Her behavior has not been diagnosed, because "therapy is for people who have problems." Based on our feedback from my therapist, my fiancé's therapist, his daughter's therapist, our couples therapist, and friends who are both therapists and social workers, they independently have identified her behavior to fall onto the NPD/BPD spectrum. They speculate that she must have been through some sort of trauma as a child and is incapable of processing emotions beyond a certain degree.

She is always pointing fingers at us for what we are doing wrong. I could literally list hundreds of times we have done something worthy of a 9 paragraph ranting email threatening legal action (we took our kids in for a city festival, which could have turned into a terror attack at any moment), ruined things for the girls (didn't have an Easter Egg hunt on Easter, but the Saturday before), or put them in grave danger (wanted to get them a passport so we could take them to Ireland.) At the beginning, I was stressed about it -- after all, she's the mother and she deserves to have her voice heard in how she wants to parent the girls.

Over time and through lots of external guidance, I've learned that she is actually very sick, and to feel sorry for her. But it still doesn't help that every time one of those emails comes in, I prepare for the worst.

My question is this: How do you, as the step-parent of kids whose other parent is BPD/NPD, not become truly resentful:
1) That you're taking on a huge responsibility to raise good kids who are independent thinkers and don't become severely codependent on their mom who takes them through rollercoasters of emotional incest,
2) While helping your partner maintain the boundaries you have set together with the ex (because he is quick to succumb to them -- second nature, which he is working to overcome)
3) That a large portion of our spare time is dedicated to thinking about how to respond to emails in the most diffusive, boundary-set way?

I realize that I will constantly be the one taking the blame for all of the "horrifying" things that have happened in her life (i.e., she is no longer the star of her daughters' show), but it still doesn't make it easy to know that I am being scapegoated for manufactured crises.

Thanks in advance for your help, and for listening.

[travelgirl2912]

New to the board... .hello.

My fiancé (we have been together for nearly 3 years) and I have blended our families (12 boy mine, 10 girl his, 8 girl his) pretty smoothly. We have great routines, fun vacations, structure intermingled with play time, etc. I think we are generally pretty happy at our house.

His ex wife, over the course of the last 3 years, has become bitter, angry, and hateful with all of our happiness:
- She used to send emails/texts on an hourly basis of everything we were doing wrong to mess up her life -- not returning Tupperware containers from lunches, not buying the right shoelaces for a pair of tennis shoes, being slave drivers by expecting them to do their homework before playing, feeding them unhealthy snacks (i.e., not organic potato chips, but an orange that may or may not have been organic), etc.
- She is a catastrophiser (always worried she will be attacked by Muslims on the train, won't fly because the plane might explode, at the sign of a cough, she has the girls into the doctor for strep tests and they come back with antibiotics even though it "may or may not be strep" and projects all of these worst-case scenarios onto us by forbidding us to ride the train, forbidding us to travel, and yelling at us when we don't keep the antibiotics on ice at every moment in case they become bacterially infested (I wish I were kidding).
- She is insecure -- whenever the kids are at our house, she is constantly texting them to get reassurance that they aren't having much fun over with us, and they are reassuring her that they still love her in subtle ways because, I honestly believe, they subconsciously know that she needs it.
- She is a victim -- things that are outside of her control merit language like, "They screwed us over" and "We got screwed!"
- She cannot set boundaries with the girls -- Older one was diagnosed with an LD and needs to be reading daily for 45 minutes. "I just can't get her to read at my house. Can you have her read double at yours?" (But then we become slave drivers for having them read AND do homework at our house. *eyeroll*)
- She is an avoider -- Really has a hard time dealing with real world items and escapes regularly to tabloids, holes up with her sister/mom to watch TV, and only has a couple of friends because all of the others have "screwed her over" in one way or another (i.e. probably called her out for being extreme). An example of this: she wouldn't admit that her daughter has an LD and wouldn't even listen to the reading instructor and principal that she needs summer tutoring.

Her behavior has not been diagnosed, because "therapy is for people who have problems." Based on our feedback from my therapist, my fiancé's therapist, his daughter's therapist, our couples therapist, and friends who are both therapists and social workers, they independently have identified her behavior to fall onto the NPD/BPD spectrum. They speculate that she must have been through some sort of trauma as a child and is incapable of processing emotions beyond a certain degree.

She is always pointing fingers at us for what we are doing wrong. I could literally list hundreds of times we have done something worthy of a 9 paragraph ranting email threatening legal action (we took our kids in for a city festival, which could have turned into a terror attack at any moment), ruined things for the girls (didn't have an Easter Egg hunt on Easter, but the Saturday before), or put them in grave danger (wanted to get them a passport so we could take them to Ireland.) At the beginning, I was stressed about it -- after all, she's the mother and she deserves to have her voice heard in how she wants to parent the girls.

Over time and through lots of external guidance, I've learned that she is actually very sick, and to feel sorry for her. But it still doesn't help that every time one of those emails comes in, I prepare for the worst.

My question is this: How do you, as the step-parent of kids whose other parent is BPD/NPD, not become truly resentful:
1) That you're taking on a huge responsibility to raise good kids who are independent thinkers and don't become severely codependent on their mom who takes them through rollercoasters of emotional incest,
2) While helping your partner maintain the boundaries you have set together with the ex (because he is quick to succumb to them -- second nature, which he is working to overcome)
3) That a large portion of our spare time is dedicated to thinking about how to respond to emails in the most diffusive, boundary-set way?

I realize that I will constantly be the one taking the blame for all of the "horrifying" things that have happened in her life (i.e., she is no longer the star of her daughters' show), but it still doesn't make it easy to know that I am being scapegoated for manufactured crises.

Thanks in advance for your help, and for listening.

[Nope]

I really have a deep empathy for what you're going through. I know what you mean about how feeling sorry for her only goes so far. I am also very familiar with dealing with explosive raging emails out of left field. I really like the BIFF approach to email. (Brief, Informative, Friendly, and Firm.) Though I admit that sometimes "Friendly" goes right out the window. But I really do try to keep it cordial, if only because it lets her know she isn't getting under anyone's skin. But my favorite part is "Brief" because I have to write earch email as though it'll be read out loud in court. The less sentences, the less time and energy I usually have to spend. The only thing we say in response to an accusation is that it isn't true. Getting into all of the details makes for a much longer interaction than is necessary.

Sometimes it's impossible not to get bitter for a little while. But bitterness isn't a place you want to live. If she knew she could take your joy away it would likely only give her pleasure​. The best revenge is living well and being happy. So if you need some self care time because the ex is driving you nuts then go ahead and take it.

[soundofmusicgirl]

travelgirl ... oh how I absolutely understand you.

Have you ever read the book: understanding the Borderline mother ? It was the very first bookt that was recommended to us by a therapist and that was the "eye opener" for us to the Borderline world. What you describe is what they describe in the book as a "hermit" borderline mother. She sees the world as a dangerous place and that is also conveyed to her children.
We are in the same boat. My husbands BPDxw is also a hermit. Everything is dangerous: trampolines, riding a bike, flying, walking bare foot, swimming etc. She has also forbidden us to go swimming with the kids and told the kids the beach is dangerous and whatever other activity we wanted to do with them.

I also know the nasty emails. BIFF is a very good method. However for the most part we simply ignore them.

I am resentful towards her. I am angry. Many times I just can´t believe how a mother can do "this" to her children. They are afraid of everything and anything. They could have a wonderful life. But no, instead they can´t even play outside in a fenced in backyard without freaking out because "they will be stolen by strangers". (my ss´s are 10 yrs old now).

My husband also struggles to keep boundaries with her. He is simply afraid of her. Sometimes he succumbs to her "reasoning". It is difficult and sometimes the biggest struggle between us.

So here we are on the road to learning how to deal with all of this and to learn radical acceptance.

[travelgirl2912]

The only thing we say in response to an accusation is that it isn't true.

Thanks for your comment. Do you find that replying to an accusation is actually helpful in the interaction with the ex? Or is this strictly strategically for if you need written context in court?

[travelgirl2912]

Have you ever read the book: understanding the Borderline mother ? It was the very first bookt that was recommended to us by a therapist and that was the "eye opener" for us to the Borderline world. What you describe is what they describe in the book as a "hermit" borderline mother. She sees the world as a dangerous place and that is also conveyed to her children.
We are in the same boat. My husbands BPDxw is also a hermit. Everything is dangerous: trampolines, riding a bike, flying, walking bare foot, swimming etc. She has also forbidden us to go swimming with the kids and told the kids the beach is dangerous and whatever other activity we wanted to do with them.

Yes! Exactly this. They can't wear flip flops when biking, they can't run in boots, they suck at riding their bikes if they fall, so shouldn't be riding them at all. We live literally 5 houses away from her in a very suburban subdivision, with no busy traffic. But they can't walk over to grab a sweatshirt or a pair of shoes -- she DRIVES them. (And then scolds us for not participating in parenting the way she does -- i.e., we don't enable the girls; instead, we try to teach them responsibility and consequences.)

Question: Conversely, does she allow for the most ridiculous things?
For example: They should be allowed to have totally public social media accounts (Snapchat, Musical.ly, Instagram - where their faces, names/locations/ages are completely visible to anyone and everyone) at age 8 and 10, to boost their self esteem; They shouldn't have to read a single book all summer, because summertime is for kids to have fun (even the one with the LD whose tutor specifically told her that she needs to read a minimum of 45 mins a day); They shouldn't have to do homework on a school night because they are too busy going shopping for Halloween costumes in September?

Thank you for recommending the book. There were a series of other books that looked interesting on the suggested reading list, so I appreciate that recommendation very much!

My husband also struggles to keep boundaries with her. He is simply afraid of her. Sometimes he succumbs to her "reasoning". It is difficult and sometimes the biggest struggle between us.

My fiancé is much better at this than he was previously, but he occasionally still falls to her bait. I understand -- he has 20 years of learned behavior (they started dating in early college) during which he developed a deep fear of her -- she legitimately is a controlling, abusive person -- and she uses the girls to get to his heart. Man, she's a sneaky little manipulator sometimes. #vent

[livednlearned]

It sounds like she is micro managing your household a bunch, through the kids. That would make me feel resentful too.

Are you and H mostly on the same page when it comes to dealing with her?

What do the boundaries look like when it comes to her communication?

[travelgirl2912]

It sounds like she is micro managing your household a bunch, through the kids. That would make me feel resentful too.

Thank you for the validation. This is exactly right, although I had never articulated it as such. You are 100% on point.

Are you and H mostly on the same page when it comes to dealing with her?

We are now, although it took quite a lot of work and untangling of past habits on his part to get there. It took a good friend (who's a LSW) to point out the very traits of BPD and helped us identify that this is likely a good portion of what we are dealing with. Consistency, boundaries, and not engaging on every point (he is an attorney, so this is difficult for him, but after reading BIFF, he has come a very long way.)

What do the boundaries look like when it comes to her communication?

- Initially, she was texting him over 50 times a day with directives/the need to connect with him - "Girls need to take a shower tonight." "Can you bring daughter's bathing suit over?" ":)id daughter have peas for dinner or corn last night?" "It's going to be 40 degrees tomorrow -- I'll bring by their winter coats."

- He had a conversation with her that this all needed to change, and she acted out, obviously. But eventually they settled on her only emailing him (was supposed to be limited to 1x a day, but she emails more than 15x a week with her micromanaging directives), and having a once-a-week conversation over the phone.

- The 1x a week conversation has since phased out since she didn't show up half the time ("I forgot because it's President's Day" or "I have a meeting so I can't make it", so fiancé said that he would not be participating any longer.

- She has stopped showing up randomly at our house to "see the girls because I just miss them" and doesn't let herself into our house anymore.

Does this help give any context?

[livednlearned]

Wow! That was some real boundary busting on her part. 50 texts a day 

You and your fiancee have done a great job rolling things back. That's not easy to do with a BPD ex.

One email a day is still a bit much. Does your fiancee respond to every email? Does he need to?

What is the custody arrangement?

[travelgirl2912]

One email a day is still a bit much. Does your fiancee respond to every email? Does he need to?

He doesn't; he only responds to relevant things although I know it's difficult for him not to respond either 1) defensively, or 2) to point out she's flat-out wrong. (He never does, but it takes every ounce of willpower not to.) She obviously doesn't like his lack of interaction, and becomes hysterical when he doesn't respond. "I HATE WHO YOU'VE BECOME IN THE PAST YEAR" is something she screamed at him after he started sticking to the boundaries they discussed.

When she gets REALLY volatile (read: every 4-6 weeks or so), she threatens legal action. Most recently, she is threatening to take him to court because he won't "share in the responsibility of transporting the girls' belongings between the houses." (She is mad because he won't hand-deliver their iPod touches to her house; he instead has the girls put it into their backpack -- and is threatening mediation with ultimatums.)

It's always her way or no way. There is no negotiation.

What is the custody arrangement?

They have a 50/50 agreement, we live 5 houses away from each other, and he also doesn't pay child support beyond paying for the girls' activities (which they don't participate in because they might be outside of their comfort zone and be sad, or they might die. Depends on the day. *eyeroll*).

[Panda39]

He doesn't; he only responds to relevant things although I know it's difficult for him not to respond either 1) defensively, or 2) to point out she's flat-out wrong. (He never does, but it takes every ounce of willpower not to.) 

Only responding to relevant things is totally the way to go, good job on his part!  She's looking for him to engage in the drama with her... .even negative engagement is engagement.  We talk about something called JADE (Justify, Argue, Defend, Explain) on this site.  Jading with someone with BPD will lead you right into a circular argument that goes no where for the person without BPD and leads right to the engagement that the person with BPD is looking for.  So again kudos to your fiance 

She obviously doesn't like his lack of interaction, and becomes hysterical when he doesn't respond. "I HATE WHO YOU'VE BECOME IN THE PAST YEAR" is something she screamed at him after he started sticking to the boundaries they discussed.

Of course she hates him because he is no longer dancing the dance they did when they were married.  This sounds like an Extinction Burst. It's like a temper tantrum when a boundary has been set she can't boundary bust her way through.  A link to more on Extinction Bursts in the link below... .

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=85479.0

... .beyond paying for the girls' activities (which they don't participate in because they might be outside of their comfort zone and be sad, or they might die. Depends on the day. *eyeroll*).

This just made me laugh  Soo been there done that!  We used to have an eyerolling emoji I wish they'd bring that back 

I'm really glad you've found us this site has helped me get my anger under control... .I arrived here too just completely puzzled by my SO's uBPDxw's treatment of her children.  Sounds like your fiance's ex is similar to mine in that she can be both neglectful and indulgent at the same time, however is never able to the stable parent her kids need.

You might want to suggest this site to your fiance too.  My SO and I are both members it really helped us speak the same language and work as a team to come up with strategies to deal with his ex and by extension some of the issues with his daughters.

Hang in there,
Panda39

[Nope]

Thanks for your comment. Do you find that replying to an accusation is actually helpful in the interaction with the ex? Or is this strictly strategically for if you need written context in court?

Strictly for court purposes. Parallel parenting is the way to go! His uBPDex lives several states away and only sees the kids a few times a year, so if it wasn't for the ever-looming possibility of court we probably would never respond to anything that wasn't specifically tied to the kid's visits with her. But that is probably the most frustrating thing for me. She'd take up 0% of the space in my head if it wasn't for the ever present possibility that I'll have to defend myself or DH against random nonsense accusations in court.

[travelgirl2912]

This sounds like an Extinction Burst. It's like a temper tantrum when a boundary has been set she can't boundary bust her way through.  A link to more on Extinction Bursts in the link below... .
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=85479.0

Wow, what a great thread. Thanks for the link.

I'm really glad you've found us this site has helped me get my anger under control... .I arrived here too just completely puzzled by my SO's uBPDxw's treatment of her children.  Sounds like your fiance's ex is similar to mine in that she can be both neglectful and indulgent at the same time, however is never able to the stable parent her kids need.

"Neglectful and indulgent." Perfect description. Swings from one extreme to the other extreme, and small minded at that. Is she also a totally functioning professional that's able to conceal it at work? I just don't understand how that's possible, but obviously she has had a lot of practice "managing" all of this.

You might want to suggest this site to your fiance too.  My SO and I are both members it really helped us speak the same language and work as a team to come up with strategies to deal with his ex and by extension some of the issues with his daughters.

Great idea. I've already sent a few screen shots, and I know it's helped him feel less crazy. Like, "I'm not the one who's completely wrong all the time!"

 

[livednlearned]

People with BPD tend to be overly focused on what is happening 2 inches above the ground. They don't have a lot of skills seeing the big picture, everything is a reaction to feelings perceived as facts, and resentments are logged and archived, rarely resolved. That makes it super hard to solve problems for them. Everything is a crisis.

With a BPD co parent, you have to keep pulling back to the 30,000 foot view, otherwise like you said, you can become consumed with how they see the world, and this breeds resentment.

One way to establish some boundaries for yourself is to decide how much of the BPD ex drama you are willing to engage. I ended up telling my SO that I don't want to discuss anything to do with his ex after dinner, and if we do talk about her, it's limited to 10 minutes and problem-solving only. It's better for him if I don't get burned out on his stuff, and if I'm in a good head space, I can help him more. When he does bring her junk up, I know it's something pretty important to him.

This might be harder for you to do because the ex lives 5 houses away. That has to be so tough. It would make me want to move  

Here's a related thread about disengaging:

TOOLS: US: Do not allow others to 'rent space' in your 'head'

Many of us have been habitually "renting out" the precious space in our minds to totally undeserving, and sometimes quite malicious, people for many years. So long, in fact, that it can actually be very tough to simply "turn off" this type of ultra-self-defeating behavior after all this time and practice. This gives others a considerable amount of emotional power and control over us. Don't let them rent space in your head! Read more.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=74749.0

[travelgirl2912]

People with BPD tend to be overly focused on what is happening 2 inches above the ground. They don't have a lot of skills seeing the big picture, everything is a reaction to feelings perceived as facts, and resentments are logged and archived, rarely resolved. That makes it super hard to solve problems for them. Everything is a crisis.

With a BPD co parent, you have to keep pulling back to the 30,000 foot view, otherwise like you said, you can become consumed with how they see the world, and this breeds resentment.

How do you not allow them to drag you into their BS? She threatens, and my fiancé doesn't engage, and she keeps pressing. Just let her keep pressing on until she wears herself out? What are some practical tips to stay out of it? (I realize I need to stop allowing her to occupy space in *my* life as well, which I am constantly working on. Fiancé is better with this -- more practice, I suppose.)

One way to establish some boundaries for yourself is to decide how much of the BPD ex drama you are willing to engage. I ended up telling my SO that I don't want to discuss anything to do with his ex after dinner, and if we do talk about her, it's limited to 10 minutes and problem-solving only. It's better for him if I don't get burned out on his stuff, and if I'm in a good head space, I can help him more. When he does bring her junk up, I know it's something pretty important to him.

This might be harder for you to do because the ex lives 5 houses away. That has to be so tough. It would make me want to move  

We have started to do this (putting on a timer and saying we will deal with her nonsense for 10 minutes, tops), but often, we get ensnared in the minutia of it all, like, "If we respond this way, what will the consequence be? If we say this, how will she take it?" I have been reading a few other threads on this board and it seems like we just need to be consistent with maintaining OUR boundaries, not fearing HER reactions. Is that kind of the right track?

And yes, living 5 houses away is loads of fun.  (Side note, and mostly irrelevant, she's selling her house to move in with her boyfriend in May, to which fiancé and I both said, "What happens when she destroys that relationship too?" Anyway.)

Many of us have been habitually "renting out" the precious space in our minds to totally undeserving, and sometimes quite malicious, people for many years. So long, in fact, that it can actually be very tough to simply "turn off" this type of ultra-self-defeating behavior after all this time and practice. This gives others a considerable amount of emotional power and control over us. Don't let them rent space in your head! Read more.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=74749.0

I appreciate this link. I did read through it, but how do you "evict" someone with whom you have to coparent? We can't have a "goodbye ritual" every time she pops up, because we'd literally be having rituals every 4-6 hours. Some sources say to approach with kindness and empathy, listen to her fears to try to defuse them while maintaining your own boundaries --  but I tend to side more with the notion that any attention/acknowledgement given to her feeds her. If we never had to deal with her ever again, that would be too soon - but in reality, we will be dealing with her multi-paragraph emails at least every other week for the next 10 years, minimum. How do you "evict" someone like that?

Even practical advice (i.e., we recently started auto-filtering her emails to a separate folder to read once a week and respond as appropriate) is absolutely welcome.

[Panda39]

For me it came with "radical acceptance" she is going to do what she is going to do and I can't control her actions. We do what we do at our house and she does what she does at hers. Do I always like what she does at her house? Heck no!  But she's gonna do what she's gonna do.  Yes she will try to infiltrate your life that's why boundaries are so important.  (Good news about her moving that creates more of a physical boundary). 

One of the first pieces of advice I received when I came here was focus on the kids not on the uBPDxw and that was really good advice, it was a shift in thinking for me that pointed me in a healthier, less obsessed, less angry direction. She no longer took up as much head space as before. Was I magically able to do this in one day?  No way, but it put me on a path where I was more conscious of my ruminating on her and I worked to break the habit.  You're right though just when I would get myself in a better place she would shake things up again... .it's not easy particularly when she does something that triggers you, but stick with it.  When you catch yourself ruminating re-direct your thinking to something else.

Below is something I said in another thread that I think relates... .

 

I knew I had finally arrived at some kind of understanding when my SO's uBPDxw (undiagnosed BPD ex-wife) took D (then13) with her to drop D(then18) off for her first year of college.  This was a trip across the country over a weekend.  So off they all went to Vermont and the day they were to return we get the call from the ex... .We missed the plane, because of traffic, we won't be home today.  (Really? I'm sure traffic is horrendous on a Sunday in Vermont  ) In the past I would have been freaking out and angry and would have engaged in the drama... .my old thinking would have gone something like, anger because she was cutting into my SO's time with his daughter and she was missing school to Wow is she being kidnapped?  But instead by then my SO and I had learned more about BPD and better ways to respond. Rather than engage in the drama he just told her to send him her new flight information once it was arranged. No drama we didn't take the bait.  D and uBPDmom arrived home the next day.  Yes, mom's behavior sucked but engaging in drama was not going to change anything, sometimes letting go is a good option.

At the most basic level get a good understanding of BPD (I read all the books in my library system before I ever found this site). Then "Radical Acceptance" of the ex and her behaviors, Boundaries, self awareness & control of my own thoughts have all been helpful for me.

Panda39

[livednlearned]

How do you not allow them to drag you into their BS? She threatens, and my fiancé doesn't engage, and she keeps pressing. Just let her keep pressing on until she wears herself out? What are some practical tips to stay out of it?

It does take a lot of front end effort to think of boundaries that you logistically have control over. It sounds like you are asserting boundaries, but are they ones that you have control over, or are you hoping she will comply based on polite requests?

What kinds of threats is she making?

I tend to side more with the notion that any attention/acknowledgement given to her feeds her.

To be honest, she sounds like she is so far up in your stuff that it's time for a reset, just to get things more manageable. Maybe take advantage of her move in May to restart the relationship on terms that work better for you.

There may be a drama bomb coming your way if she doesn't handle transition well. If she is susceptible to excessive anxiety, she'll start defaulting to bad coping skills and you might be the target. That may actually be an opportunity to implement some bullet proof boundaries.

Once you get some distance, there are skills like asking validating questions, which have the added benefit of putting accountability back on her shoulders. She wants you to solve all of her problems, and that's not going over well. The validation part helps moderate the emotional arousal (to avoid things escalating), and the question part is like whacking a tennis ball back over the net.

[soundofmusicgirl]

Panda: I love the "she is going to do what she wants to do"

I have arrived at that conclusion a while ago. But DH still feels he needs to walk on eggshells or "minimize the trauma for the children".  His latest idea was: if we don't press visitation then the kids will suffer less.
I told him that she will find other ways to inflict pain and trauma on them and that nothing we do will change how she behaves towards the kids.

The problem that we face and why I feel BPDxw is taking up a lot of space in our lives is that almost every week there is something happening with the kids that we are trying to catch up on. Kids missed school, so we have to figure out if they went to the doctor and get copies of the reports, or kids had an appointment with a care taker (therapist or councillor) that we had no idea about and only found out after the fact, so now DH will have to try and find out what is going on and wether he can get in touch with that councillor, or the school will be asking for meetings or contact us to tell us about the latest issues they are facing with the kids.
All of this "catching up " of course is part of BPDxw hiding all information about the kids and making sure that they don't tell us anything personal about their lives. We have come far with being in touch with all care takers of the kids regularly. But it takes up a lot of time and space in our lives. My DH is not proactive about things like that, so very often I feel like I need to prod him to make a call since care takers are not allowed to hand out information to me and it of course does not look great if the first contact they have with us is with me (stepmom) and not Dad.

[travelgirl2912]

For me it came with "radical acceptance" she is going to do what she is going to do and I can't control her actions. We do what we do at our house and she does what she does at hers. Do I always like what she does at her house? Heck no!  But she's gonna do what she's gonna do.  Yes she will try to infiltrate your life that's why boundaries are so important.  (Good news about her moving that creates more of a physical boundary). 

I think this is something we don't see often because she frequently uses the children to get at us. "The girls feel this way at your house, and they can only talk to me about it because they're so stressed at your house. I'm only telling you because I care so much about their well-being" is something she says often.

This board is helping me a lot in realizing that 90+% of her rants are not actually vindictive attacks at me. It's also helping my fiancé see that he doesn't need to be afraid of her anymore, and that "dance" that they had for 20+ years of dating/relationship/marriage have locked him into a pattern of fear, which he needs to consciously work to break.

(As an aside - my therapist has said that it's important to call the kids out gently when the ex says stuff like this, because if they really ARE running to mom and "tattling" on things they don't like without talking about them with us (splitting), then that is also an issue/early sign of personality disorder.)

At the most basic level get a good understanding of BPD (I read all the books in my library system before I ever found this site). Then "Radical Acceptance" of the ex and her behaviors, Boundaries, self awareness & control of my own thoughts have all been helpful for me.

WOW! How long does it take to get "well enough versed to deal with the BPD person in your life" certified?

[travelgirl2912]

It does take a lot of front end effort to think of boundaries that you logistically have control over. It sounds like you are asserting boundaries, but are they ones that you have control over, or are you hoping she will comply based on polite requests?

What kinds of threats is she making?

An example:
She wants to take my fiancé to mediation (and possibly court in front of a judge) because he wants them to put their iPod touches into their backpacks to take to Mom's house on transition day. Ex is a coddling mom who drives these things back and forth for them (she lives 5 houses away in the same subdivision, and she DRIVES. What the heck) and directs that they shouldn't have to be responsible for these things, that the parents should share the responsibility, and of course he isn't sharing in the responsibility because he doesn't turn on his car and drive them over. Daughters say, "Mom gets so mad at you when you FORCE us to take our devices with us instead of driving them over."

She also "called the mediator to get legal advice and he agreed" with her, according to her email. (Side note: fiancé is an attorney and knows this not to be true, since the mediator cannot give independent legal counsel, so basically, he knows she's full of it.)

Fiancé set a boundary by saying consistently three times that he stands firm in teaching the girls responsibility for their devices (which are a privilege that they choose to take between the houses). She continues to say, "You shouldn't put the girls in the middle. Do you want mediation or to drive them over?". Finally, tonight, he sent one final email saying the following:

-----
It seems in your previous three emails that the primary concern is making sure that responsibilities are shared, which I am happy to do, as I have with all aspect of the girls' lives.

However, I will not participate in conversations (email or other) in which you tell me there is only one way of operating (and that is the only way you will allow me to operate). I have always been open to negotiations with you, but am choosing to set a firm line with your directives.
-----
Do you have any advice on how to set boundaries that we have control over vs. hoping she complies?

There may be a drama bomb coming your way if she doesn't handle transition well. If she is susceptible to excessive anxiety, she'll start defaulting to bad coping skills and you might be the target. That may actually be an opportunity to implement some bullet proof boundaries.

Do you happen to have any resources for establishing and enforcing these "bullet-proof" boundaries?
BTW, "if she doesn't handle transition well" is the understatement of the year. Bwahahaha #dramabombqueen

Once you get some distance, there are skills like asking validating questions, which have the added benefit of putting accountability back on her shoulders. She wants you to solve all of her problems, and that's not going over well. The validation part helps moderate the emotional arousal (to avoid things escalating), and the question part is like whacking a tennis ball back over the net.

Googling this now. Thanks so much for your help!

[travelgirl2912]

I have arrived at that conclusion a while ago. But DH still feels he needs to walk on eggshells or "minimize the trauma for the children".  His latest idea was: if we don't press visitation then the kids will suffer less.
I told him that she will find other ways to inflict pain and trauma on them and that nothing we do will change how she behaves towards the kids.

Yes, this! Thank you for inspiring a conversation with my fiancé that called out his fear of her, and that we need to work to set our own boundaries that we are comfortable with. I am very familiar with the ex using kids to control my fiancé, and he is working really hard to not bite the bait every time, but it's hard for him.

The problem that we face and why I feel BPDxw is taking up a lot of space in our lives is that almost every week there is something happening with the kids that we are trying to catch up on. Kids missed school, so we have to figure out if they went to the doctor and get copies of the reports, or kids had an appointment with a care taker (therapist or councillor) that we had no idea about and only found out after the fact, so now DH will have to try and find out what is going on and wether he can get in touch with that councillor, or the school will be asking for meetings or contact us to tell us about the latest issues they are facing with the kids.
All of this "catching up " of course is part of BPDxw hiding all information about the kids and making sure that they don't tell us anything personal about their lives. We have come far with being in touch with all care takers of the kids regularly. But it takes up a lot of time and space in our lives. My DH is not proactive about things like that, so very often I feel like I need to prod him to make a call since care takers are not allowed to hand out information to me and it of course does not look great if the first contact they have with us is with me (stepmom) and not Dad.

Wow, I feel your pain. I'm so sorry that she hides stuff from you. That is unacceptable and so damaging to the kids' overall well-being. LivenLearned said earlier, "People with BPD tend to be overly focused on what is happening 2 inches above the ground." So true.

Totally get how dealing with the school is uncomfortable from a stepmom perspective, particularly if the ex-wife uses you as a scapegoat for anything that goes wrong at school. That you continue to do it says a lot about you. The kids are lucky to have you. (I keep reminding myself of this as well).

Do you have a strategy for making sure that this doesn't take up your entire life? It's so hard to keep it from consuming ours. Partly because of my personality (I'm constantly thinking of ways to solve problems -- entrepreneur, so it's what I do). I need to do a better job of letting her BS not affect me. This board has helped put things into perspective for me quite a bit, which I appreciate. How do you make sure that it doesn't become everything you and your husband talk about?

[livednlearned]

The threat of mediation is coming from a place of feeling extremely powerless -- she is losing ground to your fiancee on the iPod topic (maybe others things too) and needs to bring in reference to an authority because she feels she has none.

That's how I would read that.

It seems in your previous three emails that the primary concern is making sure that responsibilities are shared, which I am happy to do, as I have with all aspect of the girls' lives.

However, I will not participate in conversations (email or other) in which you tell me there is only one way of operating (and that is the only way you will allow me to operate). I have always been open to negotiations with you, but am choosing to set a firm line with your directives.

He is being firm here, altho he's also engaging her in a circular argument. If she asks him to do something that is not adversely impacting the girls, he can choose to not answer her. Or something super brief: "The girls can get their iPod touches when they see you next." If she escalates and threatens mediation, so what. Let her.

As an aside: If she does pull herself together enough to drag in a mediator, then bring your laundry list of issues and solutions and look at it like it's an opportunity to clear up some of this ambiguity.

Also, if things go to court, judges are more likely to rule in favor of people who bring solutions to the table. You and your fiancee can do that, whereas BPDx cannot. Plus, in my experience, judges hate quibbling. BPDx is quibbling.

When she sends emails stating what she wants, all that is needed is a crisp brief email explaining what he will or will not do. "The girls have coats here at the house. They can pick up their other coats next time they see you."

The less he writes, the smaller the target.

Do you have any advice on how to set boundaries that we have control over vs. hoping she complies?
Do you happen to have any resources for establishing and enforcing these "bullet-proof" boundaries?

Setting boundaries over which you have control is, in many ways, harder than hoping she will comply. This is where you can be helpful as the SO -- it's possible your fiancee has a FOG (fear, obligation, guilt) hangover that may even have predated his BPDx. Setting boundaries may also trigger issues he has about being a rescuer/fixer/savior to the girls. You can help him identify what is driving him nuts, come up with reasonable boundaries, and then be his reality check when he feels tugged to relent on a boundary.

Your fiancee is doing a good job of this already -- that's a good sign! He does this when he refuses to drive/deliver the iPod touches. That's a boundary he has control over.
If he refuses to respond to texts, that is a boundary he has control over.
If he only responds to emails once a day, again -- a boundary he has control over.

All good!

Another one might be that he doesn't want the girls to deliver messages from mom. His boundary might be to tell them, "I know you girls are smart and capable. These are issues from moms and dads to sort out. Your job is to be kids, so let's make a deal that mom and dad will talk about mom and dad stuff and you guys focus on being the kids."

Another boundary might be for you.

You might tell fiancee you will talk about BPD x between the hours of 6-7pm, that's it. With my SO, we are now at a place where he will ask me if he can run something by me, and we'll go out for a walk. It's ok if I say no. We're a lot more lax now because I was able to model sanity   and now that's the tone in our home.

The drama can be really intoxicating in an awful way. I got sucked in a lot in the beginning because it weirdly made me feel better about myself. Then I realized the trade off was giving up a big chunk of my mental health. Same goes for SO's D19 who also has BPD traits -- I have to be vigilant about how I want to engage her.

It's way better like this -- my head is clearer and my cup is full when SO does come to me with something. It took a long time to get to this place, but it's way better than feeling jacked up all the time, wondering how BPDx was going to mess things up. And I think my better boundaries helped SO grow a pair  

If you do change behavior and assert some of your own boundaries, know that there is almost always a small push back in the beginning when people adjust and need to test to see whether the new boundary is legit and find the edges of it. Sometimes, it's necessary to do stuff in phases too. Like being super rigid in the beginning and then letting things slide when you're in a better place.

Also, this work can bring up strong emotions. I had to do a lot of processing with my T so that I didn't feel the need to do it with SO. It was just too overwhelming for us if I tried to play T for things that were so complex and directly affected me. Now, the only time I really get involved is to help him problem solve, or point out loopholes in any boundaries he is trying to assert.

Half the time he actually listen to my advice  

[NorthernGirl]

Hi travelgirl - I am another in a similar position, although over time my challenges have changed. I thought I was a patient person until all of the chaos hit. I have had to learn many new skills and take very good care of myself to get through the crazy days.

My DH's ex is very likely BPD; a hermit - she thinks the world is a scary place except when she it is inconvenient for her. Understanding the Borderline Mother was the first big eye opening reads for me. A therapist who saw her bizarre behaviour confirmed the BPD traits.

I have leaned on many on this board to help with boundaries, not the least being the boundaries I needed to set for myself. DH was reluctant to put boundaries in place but when he saw them working, he got better. For example, he stopped taking her phone calls and his stress levels went down.

One thing that helped us was to recognize the projection - many of her emails made sense when DH turned them around and substituted 'I' for 'you'. Her rants of "You are a horrible parent" become "I am a horrible parent" and then make some sense.

She has had a horrible impact on all 3 sons, which has been the hardest thing for me to watch. DH likes to believe that the boys will be better because I am a good influence, but I know I can't make up for the harm she has done. I can be a better role model so I try to do that. One son is an addict and she enables him so his struggles are big. He likely also has a personality disorder and lives with her so she will pay his bills. The youngest (22) has developmental delays, anxiety, etc so is ill equipped to deal with her manipulating. SS22 lives with us full-time but tries desperately to keep her happy so I see her impact daily. The oldest is doing better but despite her horrible treatment of him (she tells him he caused his parents' divorce, his brother's addiction, etc.) he wants desperately for her to just apologize and tell him she loves him.

I have sat in a courtroom, police station, jail, plus numerous therapists and lawyers offices because of the role I have chosen to take on. Some friends think I am the crazy one, and frankly they are probably right! But I have a wonderful husband who adores me and fights hard to make our marriage work, and it is why I do what I do.

Some of the best advice I've gotten on this board - set boundaries, look after myself, don't take her rants personally and don't believe I can make things better. Keep coming here and you will get the help you need!

❤️

[Klera]

There is a site called Shrink4men.com which my husband found useful:

https://shrink4men.wordpress.com/2009/09/17/10-reasons-you-cant-communicate-with-a-narcissistic-or-borderline-woman/

www.shrink4men.com/2011/05/17/does-your-wife-or-ex-wife-have-a-golden-uterus-complex-15-characteristics-of-the-golden-uterus/


cheers

[Panda39]

... .All of this "catching up " of course is part of BPDxw hiding all information about the kids and making sure that they don't tell us anything personal about their lives. We have come far with being in touch with all care takers of the kids regularly. But it takes up a lot of time and space in our lives. My DH is not proactive about things like that, so very often I feel like I need to prod him to make a call since care takers are not allowed to hand out information to me and it of course does not look great if the first contact they have with us is with me (stepmom) and not Dad... .

We went through this kind of thing too and learned to go straight to the source on things, teachers, doctors, girl scout leader etc.  You might try to talk with the adults in your kids lives, let them know that you aren't always getting information from the ex and could they send duplicate communications to you/your husband.  Ask teachers to provide duplicate homework information and ask the doctor/counselor notify husband of any visits etc.  They may or may not be willing to do this but it's worth a try to get a better handle on things.

An example:
She wants to take my fiancé to mediation (and possibly court in front of a judge) because he wants them to put their iPod touches into their backpacks to take to Mom's house on transition day. Ex is a coddling mom who drives these things back and forth for them (she lives 5 houses away in the same subdivision, and she DRIVES. What the heck) and directs that they shouldn't have to be responsible for these things, that the parents should share the responsibility, and of course he isn't sharing in the responsibility because he doesn't turn on his car and drive them over. Daughters say, "Mom gets so mad at you when you FORCE us to take our devices with us instead of driving them over."

She also "called the mediator to get legal advice and he agreed" with her, according to her email. (Side note: fiancé is an attorney and knows this not to be true, since the mediator cannot give independent legal counsel, so basically, he knows she's full of it.)

Fiancé set a boundary by saying consistently three times that he stands firm in teaching the girls responsibility for their devices (which are a privilege that they choose to take between the houses). She continues to say, "You shouldn't put the girls in the middle. Do you want mediation or to drive them over?". Finally, tonight, he sent one final email saying the following:

-----
It seems in your previous three emails that the primary concern is making sure that responsibilities are shared, which I am happy to do, as I have with all aspect of the girls' lives.

However, I will not participate in conversations (email or other) in which you tell me there is only one way of operating (and that is the only way you will allow me to operate). I have always been open to negotiations with you, but am choosing to set a firm line with your directives-----

No longer respond to the iPod Touch topic. Your husband has told her what he is going to do, he is not asking his kids to do something inappropriate.  She will probably try to escalate things (extinction burst) make more threats etc. Don't respond to it.  She is trying to get him to engage in the drama with her don't feed the drama.

Do you have any advice on how to set boundaries that we have control over vs. hoping she complies?
Do you happen to have any resources for establishing and enforcing these "bullet-proof" boundaries?

Below are several links on boundaries... .

https://bpdfamily.com/bpdresources/nk_a120.htm
https://bpdfamily.com/content/values-and-boundaries
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=167368.0

My advice when it comes to boundaries is be consistent. It's like the little kid in the grocery store that wants candy and mom says no (boundary), the little kid starts to whine and mom still says no (boundary), and then the little kid starts to scream and have a tantrum... .what happens if mom caves? The little kid learns if she screams loud enough she will get what she wants.  If the "no" is consistent the little kid will eventually figure out that they are not going to get any candy. Be aware the ex will come on like a FOG (Fear, Obligation, Guilt) blower... .recognize it for what it is.

WOW! How long does it take to get "well enough versed to deal with the BPD person in your life" certified?

This is and always will be a work in progress and in my case my SO and I have gotten some help from his daughers (D16 & D20) about 2 years ago their mother did some horrendous things to each of them D20 barely has contact with her mom at all and D16 is low contact talks to her on the phone but doesn't see her too often.  Both girls voted with their feet to live with their dad full-time the end of 2015.  This doesn't stop their mom from trying to stir the pot when she gets a chance but things are more peaceful these days compared to when I met my SO almost 7 years ago.

Use this site as a sounding board it's a great place to get ideas and suggestions when dealing with tough situations.

Panda39

[soundofmusicgirl]

The threat of mediation is coming from a place of feeling extremely powerless -- she is losing ground to your fiancee on the iPod topic (maybe others things too) and needs to bring in reference to an authority because she feels she has none.

this is so true. My DH´s BPDxw used to write us emails about how unreasonable he is and how "all the professionals" agree with her. She tried it again last christmas when it was time for the kids to fly to us. She once again said that "all the professionals agree with her that the boys cannot fly". Made me and hubby chuckle, because we actually had two written reports (one from their pediatrician and one from a psychologist that had recently evaluated them that they saw absolutely no problem with kids flying.
It became clear to us that she just was hoping that my husband would cave to the:"if you tuly love your children you will not make them come and see you" thread.

[FamilyLaw]

Your Ipod Touch issue reminded me of one of the ways we've been able to disarm UBD Mom over the years -- making DSD17 responsible and capable.  Her mom, at least in the past, tried to make sure that DSD thought the world was dangerous and that she needed Mommy at every turn.  We got those emails on how to bathe a 9 year old.  I was a horrible abusive stepmom because I made DSD empty the utensil bin of the dishwasher.  Mom's psychosis worked until DSD was about 13, even though she had previously been a pretty brave little girl.  She even gave up riding her horse because it was dangerous.

But as she got older we made sure she saw a lot of the world (trips, visits to the colleges her stepsiblings went to, camping, etc.) and that she had things that she was competent at.  We fought all the way to the Court of Appeals to make sure she went to the most rigorous middle school in town.  We sent her by herself on the plane to visit her older brother.  She's responsible for her own laundry.  As she's gotten older we've let her go out and explore on her own. We pretty much ignored Mom's rants.  Fortunately DH is better at this than I am.

Its taken a long while, but now she is very independent and is talking of going out of state (and maybe even the country) for college.  She has even told her mother that she's going to do this.  I hope that giving DSD the opportunity to prove to herself that she is competent and capable of taking on the world has helped neutralize her mother's crazy.  So the moral of the story is, the more that mom tries to do the things that the girls should be learning to do, make sure they have things they are responsible for and make sure you acknowledge and praise how self-sufficient and independent they are.

[doublejeopardy]

Travelgirl, I must remind myself constantly that my husband's HFBPDxw has likely been suffering since she was a child.  My H and I married in 2012 and live in a neighboring state. She'd nearly destroyed H physically and emotionally before demanding divorce; attempted "case-building" with multiple marriage therapists as part of her 10-year divorce prep (had to keep switching as they invariably eventually found some small fault with her behavior); controlled all the money and decisions; got him fired on false accusations about a week before filing her papers so he couldn't afford to hire an attorney; lied and cried to great effect in destroying his reputation in all their social, church and professional circles... .and of course this masterful SP/bully has convinced countless minions that she is the victim.

After we married,  a few weeks after the dragged-out divorce, she flipped out. She was enraged that we married before her boyfriend's own divorce was final: said it made her look bad. Our wedding made her look bad? It was in another state and could not have been more humble. It involved the two of us, the pastor and his wife, $10 steel rings, a $5 vintage dress and the next day off, modestly spent at home, for a honeymoon. We managed a small honorarium for our pastor, and that $100 was our biggest wedding expense.

She soon retaliated in her favorite arena: Out of State Court. She refused to refinance their home to buy out equity, pretending that H wasn't cooperating, then filed contempt motions complaining that he wouldn't sign over the house in advance. She told the children they'd have to move, change schools and lose all their friends because their daddy was selfish. Told them he wasn't paying support when he was--he cashed out his fairly meager retirement at great tax penalty to continue paying it during 10 months of unemployment.  Made false claims that we threatened not to return the children after the first of the only 2 scheduled visits she allowed in the past 4.5 years. (We actually returned them a day early, precisely to her instructions.) I've scarcely had a single conversation with this woman, who is hateful in private and effusive in public. Very high functioning executive in public, which gives her a veneer of credibility until one actually looks for any proof of her outlandish accusations.

Your H-ex beats mine on boundary-breaking, given her proximity and the fact that she still communicates with you. She called and texted constantly during the only 2 times H got to see his kids since marrying me. Both visits were within 8 months of divorce/remarriage--the 2nd was last-minute, after she learned we'd borrowed $ for an attorney to address her visitation interference. The day after the children were returned to her (exactly as instructed, after no incident other than her phone harassments), she filed an ex parte, malicious no-contact TRO based on multiple false accusations that even if true still wouldn't merit a TRO, much less no-contact. I've learned it is the custom for judges here to err on the side of caution--that is, to sign any TRO presented, as they expire in 30 days unless their need can be proven... .OR unless the mother has verified beforehand that her victim cannot take time off to appear without losing his job, and cannot borrow any additional funds to fight the TRO while seeking a stronger visitation schedule. We were served the TRO about 10 days after it was filed, about 2 business days before its hearing in court.

It gets better. We may never know what gaming-the-system threats her attorney made to exasperate our borrowed-money, flat-fee visitation attorney, but our guy was hopping mad at the bad-faith exhibited by the TRO stunt during his attempts to amicably resolve the visitation out of court. So our guy quit. No refund, of course: said her attorney had wasted enough of his time to use up what we'd paid him, and gave us all the sympathy required to ease his conscience for abandoning our case. He told us her attorney planned to milk her for all she's got, knowing she could easily outspend us, and we couldn't come up with any more money. He also gave us some "free" (HA!) advice that the TRO couldn't be extended more than 15 days without a NON ex-parte motion (i.e., we actually have to be served with 30-days' notice) for another hearing at which the burden of proof would be hers to extend it any further. That. Never. Happened.

Instead, both she and her attorney have maintained ever since that the judge extended the TRO for 18 months AND awarded her sole custody in court for the TRO hearing-again, a mere 2 days after we were served her "secret" (ex parte) temporary restraining order barring any contact with her or the children. That. Also. Never. Happened. Asked why we never received any notice of any custody award, TRO extension or ANY other subsequent ruling whatsoever, and why there is zero documentation of ANY such in the court record, her attorney that "dismissively said it wasn't required," and that if we called the children to say Merry Christmas, we'd be arrested. WOW, anyone? The bigger WOW is how sadly common this costly garbage is in US family courts. We tried each year since to make peace and reconcile out of court (we had no money for that), but it is hard with a HFBP/N/SP one cannot contact directly--only through her intensely hostile attorney.

I'm going to forego trying to describe the next three years of isolation. The sun still comes up each morning. We soldier on. We learn to forgive. We paid down most of our enormous expenses, then had to replace our aged vehicles with slightly less aged vehicles. We saved what we could, laughed when we could, cried when we had to. Every day since we married seems to have revolved around this woman, these children. The grieving never ever ever stops. Nor the wondering what the children have been told, what they are thinking, what they are doing, how they are growing... .We learned through relatives that there's been some cutting (self-harm), there's been some gender confusion, major academic issues, even emergency surgery for one child's stress-related ailment.

Last spring, we managed enough to hire a better attorney, at greater cost but with far more promising results. He filed a motion for custody (daring move for estranged an out-of-state, falsely vilified dad) June 2016. Her attorney failed to show up and couldn't be reached by phone. He didn't even bother to tell his client! We did get to see them for a few hours while we were in town, for the first time since 2013. God be praised, they were still eager after all these years to see us, and it was a joyful reunion. In court, all parties were all ordered to participate in a custody evaluation by a mental health professional (MHP), and now in March 2017, we're still waiting on the report. The mother of course told the kids that only me and their dad were being evaluated... .that way, it's our fault that a month later they were forced to comply, too.

I've encouraged my H as best I know how. It worked great for the first 3.5 years of this hell. But a few months ago, stressed over his very high-stress job and this pending MHP report, and the children's coolness to him after the MHP evaluation intruded into every shred of privacy they've ever had... .well, his behavior has recently plunged into a mirror of his ex's BPD. I'm at a loss. That's where I'm at. I can't even be sure if he's suddenly morphed into full-blown BPD is a temporary condition from the strain of this horrid 4-year illegal custody interference, or if he's always had it and I never noticed because his exw's behavior overshadowed it. There's indicators favorable to either interpretation, but I am definitely in an eggshell minefield since the holidays.

One thing I do know. I'm not alone. You're in my prayers and if you pray, please spare one for us, too. Thank you for sharing your story, and for hearing mine.

[Panda39]

travelgirl2912,

I hope you will pardon me for responding to doublejepardy in the middle of your thread but I feel like I must.

doublejeopardy,

               

Girl, you have been through the wringer, my SO's and my battle for the kids was only 2 years, but 5! That has got to be beyond exhausting. Have you thought about telling your husband about us?  It might help him to know he's not alone, he might get some help with some coping strategies and the legal board might be able to help with some strategies in terms of court. 

Would he consider Therapy?  It might help both of you if he has a person outside the situation to talk to and give you a break from having to support him alone.

You might also want to read Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder by Bill Eddy, Randi Kreger if you haven't already.

Sending a special prayer to you, your husband and the kids.

Panda39

[bunny4523]

wow this all hits so close to home.  I came on this website because of a breakup with my ex whom I did not know at the time has traits of BPD. Discovered it after the break up when I returned to the counselor we were both seeing together.   Now I wonder off to this board and bam... .this is exactly what we have been experiencing with my husbands ex wife.  At first I thought she was just bitter and resentful and I immediately adviced my husband not to engage.  The less he engaged, the worse she got in the moment because she wasn't able to control him to get him to blow up back at her... .but the less intense the next episode was.  Without knowing it, we were using the tools members on this post speak about and it really helped. 

She is still all over the place but we try to weed through the discussion.  If it's our issue, we let her "vent" about years ago how he did this or that and once she starts to run out of energy, we bring her back to the issue.  If it is her issue, we let her vent and then we say something like, "what is it you want to see moving forward?"  My poor husband, he listens to the words she says and gets upset, wants to call BS and set her straight which never works.  I have a different approach (a technique I learned from raising teenage boys... .haha)  I only listen to the issue or for something that is true that I can validate.  If she is just saying mean lies to hurt us, I disregard because it isn't true, it is just her feeling.  And there is no  point in correcting her feelings even if she is presenting them as facts.  What she wants to keep in her own head about us is her concern not mine.  My job is to keep the lies out of my head and to remind my husband to keep them out of his head so we dont' buy into them. 

If she says, well you are always changing the schedule and you have no respect for my plans. (when in reality we just asked to trade one day a couple months away if she happened to not have any plans already) We validate her by saying "we completely agree, you shouldn't have to change your plans to accommodate our request.  Not a problem, we can plan it for another time.  (and we always leave an opening for her) Just let us know if anything changes."

The weirdest thing once we leave it like that... .she almost always gets a hold of us to make the trade.


I have a simple rule of thumb that seems to work for me.  I do what I think is in the best interest of the girls and I stand behind it.  If she gets upset and wants nothing to do with us ever again blah blah all the mean things she says.  That's ok  because next week or tomorrow she will act like it never happened.  Once I started looking at her like I did my teenagers,  when they would argue either side of the coin with me in order to get what they wanted, I learned short and sweet statements and a big PERIOD at the end was all I really needed to do.  She is entitled to whatever feelings she has about that and can choose to react however she wants.  I'm not going to walk on eggshells but I am also not going to put fuel into the fire.  My husband wouldn't walk on eggshells but he would just ignore her... .that seem to make things worse.  She seems to need to be heard.  She once talked for 17 minutes straight without even a word coming out of my mouth.  She does better with being straight forward but you have to keep it short and repetitive. 

She will tell me that she never needs to talk to me about anything.  These are not my kids and I have nothing to do with this but then she will call me if my husband doesn't respond quick enough or if he cuts the call short because she is belittling and raising her voice.   I have learned to just listen and stay calm even when she is saying such mean untrue things about my husband.  Sometimes I'm not in the mood to talk to her, it's too intense and I've had a rough day, I simply send her a quick text that I'm not able to talk right now but will call her as soon as I can.  I feel like that calms her... .like she knows I will hear her out or something... .

It's not an easy situation to be in... .man it was hard learning to not take it personal.  It did really help when I found myself in a similar conversation with my 17 year old telling me what a lowsy mom I was and it just clicked.  I knew to handle her the same way I handle him... .guess it makes alot of sense now knowing the BPD lack emotional regulation and maturity huh?

We would get constant threats of court too! I'm so glad I found this board... . thank you everyone for sharing

Gosh what are the chances of both my husband and I coming out of relationships with persons with BPD traits... .  maybe one day I will be able to help the girls better understand and deal with their mother. That would be nice to be able to pay my experience forward.



Bunny








 

[soundofmusicgirl]

There is a lot of wisdom on this board. I really appreciate everyones insight. I have learned a lot.

I just hope my DH can one day learn to do "his own thing". Yesterday was a perfect example of the differences between his approach with his BPDxw and mine. His weekly skype call happens to be scheduled for 11:15pm our time on Friday nights. Needless to say we are tired and just want to go to bed. BPDxw has been taking her sweet time again and again over the last couple of months and has been late consistenly for at least 10 min each call. In the beginning she would still text DH that "traffic" was bad or some other lame excuse. But lately she has stopped because she got angry that DH just ignored her texts and did not react anymore.

She has also lately figured out that she can stay "invisible" on skype but yet be online. Which means that my DH does not know when he can call the kids and has to wait until she gives him the "all clear" on skype chat. Yesterday i was fed up with that and I just simply pressed the call button at the arranged time on skype. It rang (which means she was online). But she refused to answer. Few minutes later I repeated the process. It rang again. Figured that at least the kids may hear that we are trying to call. My DH then said to me: are you trying to piss her off? And i told him: no, but it is past the arranged time to call. She has not said a peep what is going on, so we might as well try to call and then be able to show that we tried to call (skype call history).
To me this was once again a perfect example how my DH still dances to BPDxw tunes. I think I personally would have put a stop to her being consistently late to the Friday night calls. But he just lets it happen and says: this is the only way I can talk to my kids. I am 100% sure that most of the time BPDxw just lets him wait online because she knows it is late for us.

Next thing that happened was that DH had sent an email to her a few weeks ago announcing that we had sent my ss's some packages. He said he would love it if they could open those packages while we skype. Well we put tracking on those packages and knew exactly when they had arrived. However each time we talked to the boys she had not given them the packages but we had to tell them that they need to go and ask mom as we know the packages arrived at their house. So they did and she finally handed them the packages. I find it just unbelievable that even after sending her a notice she just refuses to hand over the packages to the boys.

[bunny4523]

Soundof musicgirl,

I completely understand your frustrations with the immature games being played. You would think she would have the best interest of the boys in mind but from experience they don't because they are so focused on their own feelings.

I can tell you from my experience that I find the BPD ex is fighting for control to her own world and a fear of rejection from us. (Maybe even being replaced)

With our ex, she is constantly changing the pick up location to the grocery store parking lot or the police department because she says we disrespect her so we are no longer welcome at her home. Disrespecting her might be not responding to a text, forgetting to send a copy of s field trip form or for just walking away when she starts yelling and belittling my husband in front of the girls at drop off.

My husband likes to call her out on the games but I've found giving her the room to make decisions tends to push her into making better decisions. Like we told her that's fine if you don't want us to come to your home to pick up the girls but you are always welcome at ours.
We also said that the girls shouldn't have to feel this uncomfortableness thinking we are always fighting and have to be picked up at awkward random places. Now she has decided to drop off and pick up the girls from our home. Even though the first time we asked her to pick up at our house, she came over screaming on the front lawn  f words for all the neighbors to hear. Also we were 100% of the time picking up and dropping off. Now she does all the commuting.

We have learned how to encourage her to do the right thing for the girls. For us, it was about addressing issues, not avoiding or ignoring her... that seemed to trigger the fear of abandonment and made things worse.
We are direct in the one thing we want (don't pick more than one thing, the BPD seems to be great at adding 20 more issues all on their own) stay focused on that one thing, then we listen... .let her vent. Once she winds down, we redirect back to the one issue.

I have had conversations with her where she did all the taking and I thought it went horribly. She ended up texting me thank you for listening and then agreed to what we were asking.

It's definitely different than any techniques I've had with communicating with other adults but we seem to have found something that works for us.

Maybe try more communication. Text her saying packages were sent. We are oand ready to skype when you are. When the BPD is criticizing or making threats, try to remember that's when they need your reassurance the most. I know it's lame to have to cater to this type of behavior but it can help to get you the outcome you desire without lowering your standards or walking on eggshells.

I'm still working on it cause I still get my feelings a little hurt at first when she is mean but I've learned ways to respond that don't make me feel like a victim or that she is winning. I stay strong and continue with my decision - showing her that I'm strong and her trantrum
Won't change anything- not even the way I feel about her as a partner in this blended family. Because she does have a role, her opninion does matter to me and I will take it into consideration but my final decision will be in the best interest of the girls, not in the best interest of her feelings or a fear of her reaction.

She used to scare me cause she seemed so evil and mean. Now I see her as a hurt child and it is much easier to deal with. (A hurt child in a grownup body that can make decisions effecting everyone involved!) scary that's why it's important for my husband and I to lead the way but allow her to be a part of it.

We have made progress, she will call me directly now, send emails to both my husband and I saying hello or good morning.

Include her in your life more and see if that helps. At first it might get worse but stay patient and consistent. We had a few big blowups where I was ready to through in the towel and never involve myself with her again but we stood our ground in a matter of fact way and we let her feel whatever she needed to feel... .and moved on and grew.

I hope you find something that works for you.

Remember when they are pushing you away that is when they really are saying "I'm feeling left out, include me more"

Bunny

[soundofmusicgirl]

bunny thank you for your words. I am glad you found something that works for you. We have a strict rule: only DH communicates with BPDxw.
This rule was also encouraged when we talked to a therapist and he said it is best that biological parents communicate and not stepparents.
I have tried to communicate several times and realised it only creates further chaos and adds fuel to the fire (in our case). Plus I really don't want to receive hate mail

I completely understand that she is afraid she is losing control and being abandoned. In the very beginning my DH was very kind and allowed BPDxw to skype with the children twice a day while he had them. He wanted to "calm her anxieties" and reassure her. It did the complete opposite. She said he was taunting her with all the things that he was doing with the kids. Especially when he told them to put on their swim trunks when she had communicated that she forbids him to go swimming. On another visit BPDxw kept my husband busy with texting him multiple times per day demanding an update on the kids and demanding that the daily phone calls she had with them was not "reasonable". My husband engaged and tried to "calm her". All it did was stress my husband and BPDxw getting mad at him over the text message. It kept him from enjoying the short time he had with the kids because he was constantly thinking about how to reply to BPDxw text messages. After that I drew the boundary and said no more text messaging while the kids are with us.

[bunny4523]

Sound of music girl,

Let me first say please remember you aren't doing anything wrong. It is really hard dealing with these behaviors and it does get worse before it gets better. The consistency needs to be built up. And with BPD irrational responses we tend to think "that didn't work" and we try something else which tgreatens that pattern of consistency.

By no means do I mean comply with all her demands or texts... .actually just the opposite. You set the boundaries, like you are doing, but just a little softer.
Like maybe one text response to the 100 messages at the end of the day. I used to read them for my husband when we were going through that and only respond me to any factual matters involving the kids. Ignoring all the hate insults. She soon realized she would need to wait for my husband to respond and she also learned that he. Would respond eventually.
She used to flip out if he didn't answer his phone right when she called or text. We also put her texts on silent because the constant alerts while me husband was trying to work was driving him nuts.

We only do what we want to do based on what we think is right to do regardless of her possible reaction. Definitely don't cater to her for sure. I'm sorry you are going through this, it makes it so much harder than it needs to be. It took us multiple go arounds before we were able to find the balance that worked for us.

Don't give up but take breaks from it too. Then dive back in when your ready. The thing to remember is the kids are going to suffer from having to deal with their mom as they grow up.  Once you guys figure out the way to coexist it will help you to teach them later How to cope with this disorder and hopefully not develop the traits themselves. Even if they do, teaching them how to work through it now will help them hopefully to be less effected and more functioning. Your number one focus is just what you are doing... .do right by the boys, set the example.

It's a mess and it keeps constant tensions... .I do remember that feeling and I wish you the best. Thanks for caring about those kids and searching out this site for support.
Bunny

[travelgirl2912]

The threat of mediation is coming from a place of feeling extremely powerless--

Indeed, you hit the nail on the head. He used to give into her every demand and now he's not, and she's really frustrated by that.

Setting boundaries over which you have control is, in many ways, harder than hoping she will comply. This is where you can be helpful as the SO -- it's possible your fiancee has a FOG (fear, obligation, guilt) hangover that may even have predated his BPDx. Setting boundaries may also trigger issues he has about being a rescuer/fixer/savior to the girls. You can help him identify what is driving him nuts, come up with reasonable boundaries, and then be his reality check when he feels tugged to relent on a boundary.

We worked through this over the weekend; thank you for the inspiration to start this. He historically has sent emails outlining what the girls are not accomplishing at mom's house that we have to compensate for at our house (i.e., reading, health issues, homework, getting excused from doing homework because of parties, etc.) with the purpose of documenting this in case he needs it for mediation/court. Is this really necessary?

My thought is, she's never going to change, the burden of work will always fall on us, and it's more important for us to accept this sooner than later so that our home can be as bitter-free as possible for the girls.

The more he score-keeps, the more angry he gets... .(perhaps this is part of the FOG that you mentioned).

Thanks again, so much!

[travelgirl2912]

She once again said that "all the professionals agree with her that the boys cannot fly". Made me and hubby chuckle, because we actually had two written reports (one from their pediatrician and one from a psychologist that had recently evaluated them that they saw absolutely no problem with kids flying.
It became clear to us that she just was hoping that my husband would cave to the:"if you tuly love your children you will not make them come and see you" thread.

Thanks for sharing this specific. I feel like we are dealing with the same woman. She literally said, "All of the professionals agree that the girls should not go to Europe, a terrorist zone."

Uh... .your sister and mom don't count as professionals.

[travelgirl2912]

Her mom, at least in the past, tried to make sure that DSD thought the world was dangerous and that she needed Mommy at every turn.  We got those emails on how to bathe a 9 year old.  I was a horrible abusive stepmom because I made DSD empty the utensil bin of the dishwasher.  Mom's psychosis worked until DSD was about 13, even though she had previously been a pretty brave little girl.  She even gave up riding her horse because it was dangerous.

WOW! We had the same stuff - we should be helping the girls shower (10 and 8) because she does at her house (boundary issues, anyone?) We make them do unreasonable chores (sorting the laundry, dusting -- "they should NOT be doing chores that adults/housekeepers/maids should be doing", and one daughter can't take horseback riding lessons because she may be allergic to horses.

But as she got older we made sure she saw a lot of the world (trips, visits to the colleges her stepsiblings went to, camping, etc.) and that she had things that she was competent at.  We fought all the way to the Court of Appeals to make sure she went to the most rigorous middle school in town.  We sent her by herself on the plane to visit her older brother.  She's responsible for her own laundry.  As she's gotten older we've let her go out and explore on her own. We pretty much ignored Mom's rants.  Fortunately DH is better at this than I am.

Thanks for inspiring and reassuring me. We fought and fought and fought to get the girls passports last summer so we could take them to Paris, London, and Ireland (all terrorist zones where something bad could happen at ANY moment, so she had to Facetime them every day to make sure they were okay - and when one of the girls was crying because she missed her teddy bear, she told her that we should never have taken them so far from home). We make them walk 1/4 of a block to the bus, we empower them that they CAN DO HARD THINGS. Their mom fully believes that she is helping their confidence levels by doing everything for them, and they know the second they come back to our house, we don't do everything for them. Right now, we're labeled at the strict and the mean house, but we are also the house that says YES to experiences that they would never have at Mom's house. My 10 year old stepdaughter is now saying, "I want you to get married wherever is the farthest away." She loves adventure, plane rides, travel, and seeing all different aspects of the world. She's very intuitive, and is already starting to pick up that her mom is the one holding her back -- and even sees the relationship as something she should feel sorry for at times.

Thank you for helping me see the benefit of consistency in this long road ahead.

Do you just literally delete her rants? Not respond? Totally ignore? What if she keeps pressing? What if you need her permission for something (like passports)?

[livednlearned]

Do you just literally delete her rants?

Move them to a folder labeled "rants"   in case you need them later. If it comes down to going back to court, you can quantify the kinds of emails you receive, organized by label. "Name-calling," "excessive micro-managing," "obstructing/stonewalling," etc.

Not respond? Totally ignore?

If you have already addressed the issue in question, no need to respond. If your H has a hard time with that, he could quote whatever email in which he expressed how he planned to handle the issue. Sort of like stock answers to common grievances.

What if she keeps pressing?

Hang on tight

Because most likely, she will keep pressing. Boundaries are not something she experiences inside herself, so you will have to provide them for her. She is going to keep kicking and testing the edges to see if the boundaries are really there. And there. And there. And here too. Every time you let up on a boundary, that will compel her to keep pressing, so be as consistent as you can, even if it initially inconveniences you.

What if you need her permission for something (like passports)?

Depending on how high-conflict she is, you may have to file a motion and go to court, unfortunately.

[travelgirl2912]

bunny thank you for your words. I am glad you found something that works for you. We have a strict rule: only DH communicates with BPDxw.
This rule was also encouraged when we talked to a therapist and he said it is best that biological parents communicate and not stepparents.

We got the same advice, with an additional perspective: it is my fiancé's responsibility to protect the sacredness of his and my relationship, so he should be the buffer. I'm okay with that

... .He wanted to "calm her anxieties" and reassure her. It did the complete opposite.

We experience the exact same thing! Every time in the past that we thought to ourselves, ok, maybe she's normal now -- JUST KIDDING -- she'd nose her way into something else we were doing wrong and how we were endangering the kids and how next time this happens she will take us to court. The most recent episode FINALLY (finally!) prompted my fiancé to de-friend her on Facebook so she wouldn't be able to see all of the stuff that we do with the kids and use it as ammunition to fire up her already-always-panicked mind.

Sound of Music and Bunny - Thank you for sharing your thoughts and stories. They help me to feel like we are doing the right thing, not just being total jerks for the sake of being jerks! 

[travelgirl2912]

Move them to a folder labeled "rants"   in case you need them later. If it comes down to going back to court, you can quantify the kinds of emails you receive, organized by label. "Name-calling," "excessive micro-managing," "obstructing/stonewalling," etc.

I really love this idea. Thank you. It flips the rant on its head. Also, it's more fun to file them under folders that we title with swear words, too.

[soundofmusicgirl]

Thanks for sharing this specific. I feel like we are dealing with the same woman. She literally said, "All of the professionals agree that the girls should not go to Europe, a terrorist zone."

Uh... .your sister and mom don't count as professionals.

ha ha... yes! She also added that a trip to Europe will be interfereing with their cicadian rythm. SS then told us that he does not want to be dizzy and tired (Moms way of explaining jet lag to him). We told him that the best way to battle jet lag is to go outside and play. They then proceeded to sleep for 12-14 hours straight each night.

Luckily they have some awesome teachers in school that help them to see adventures in coming to Europe. They were able to take some pictures and share them with their class and were the "heroes" of the day
And yes, my goal is as well to make them see and experience a lot and understand that the world is a wonderful place.

[travelgirl2912]

UPDATE:
We got an inflammatory email last night that I have been making disparaging remarks about the ex-wife to the girls and that makes them uncomfortable, and she is so upset that she will be calling my fiancé this week to discuss.

I already know this to be made up, as does my fiancé, and we've (almost) gotten to the point that we can laugh that she would make up something so ludicrous. We will not be responding to the e-mail, nor will he be picking up the phone. We have already set a boundary with her that any accusatory or inflammatory emails will not be responded to, nor will phone calls be answered. So, continuing with that boundary, we are hoping that she just lets this manufactured crisis go and moves onto the next. We are prepared :D

Fiancé also opened up more at therapy last night that he is definitely emotionally attached to her in the sense that he wants to constantly give her a chance to do right so badly (so it will, in turn, make him not a horrible person for marrying her), and that he is still seeking her approval. Therapist identified quite a bit of shame underneath all of the anger - why did he stay for so long, he was so dumb, how could he not see how sick she is? This board has helped me articulate to him in a way that he hears it - that she is truly ill, that she will make up stories to find ways to control and seep into our relationship if we let her, that she feels truly out of control and wants others to experience those emotional swings with her, and that it's up to us to protect ourselves against the drama and not ride the roller coaster with her. Part of that will be him figuring out how to detach from her and really set boundaries on OUR terms, not hers.

Upside: the iPod touch emails seem to have fallen off the radar for the time being.   

Thank you again; I can't tell you how empowered I feel right now! 

[bunny4523]

This board has helped me articulate to him in a way that he hears it - that she is truly ill, that she will make up stories to find ways to control and seep into our relationship if we let her, that she feels truly out of control and wants others to experience those emotional swings with her, and that it's up to us to protect ourselves against the drama and not ride the roller coaster with her. Part of that will be him figuring out how to detach from her and really set boundaries on OUR terms, not hers.

Upside: the iPod touch emails seem to have fallen off the radar for the time being.   

Thank you again; I can't tell you how empowered I feel right now! 

This is the same thing I have to remind my husband.  She will not understand because she is not like you and I, she isn't well.  It seems to help calm him down. Takes the pressure off of him to "fix" the issue at hand.  DON'T ride the roller coaster with her... .I like that.

Very well said... .I think this post will help alot of members.  Thank you for sharing.

Bunny

[Panda39]

Therapist identified quite a bit of shame underneath all of the anger - why did he stay for so long, he was so dumb, how could he not see how sick she is?

I had never thought about my SO feeling shame from his marriage to his ex.  I have never tried to shame him... .do I think he made some dumb decisions when he was married sure but we all do dumb things in our marriages.  I understood is motivation (his commitment to his marriage & family). Besides he wasn't the only one coming out of a dysfunctional marriage I had 20 years with an alcoholic. I didn't and couldn't judge him.  I've always encouraged him to be who he is and over the last 6+ years I've been watching him do that and it's been great.   But when I told him about your fiancé he said Oh, yah I feel shame... .I feel like the guard at the concentration camp that was just following orders.  That made me so sad.  I'm so happy we are a partnership, it's collaborative, no one is giving or following orders anymore.

I agree with Bunny great post... .wish we could all get together for lunch but with all the kooky stories we have it would last for days!

[travelgirl2912]

I had never thought about my SO feeling shame from his marriage to his ex.  I have never tried to shame him... .

Right? It makes no sense to me why he would carry around this shame, but our therapist says that it's very common for men (although it's not exclusively a gender issue) to hold onto shame, often from their family of origin. (Fiancé grew up with a mom who used guilt as a weapon and also was emotionally incestuous, so there is that FOG that was discussed earlier in this thread as well.) I see him as such a great man and great dad, but he doesn't see himself that way. So. Much. Shame.

Thankfully, we are working to chip away at it and get to the root of everything, which I am confident will happen over time. He is incredibly self aware and willing to do the hard work. (I'm very lucky.)

But when I told him about your fiancé he said Oh, yah I feel shame... .I feel like the guard at the concentration camp that was just following orders.  That made me so sad.  I'm so happy we are a partnership, it's collaborative, no one is giving or following orders anymore.

Good for you guys! Sometimes, I tell him something one way, and it triggers the shame (the guard at the concentration camp is a GREAT analogy) so I need to watch how I say things to him. I'm sure you are years ahead of us in progress... .something to aspire to.

I agree with Bunny great post... .wish we could all get together for lunch but with all the kooky stories we have it would last for days!

It would need to be a 2-week long cruise! 

[NorthernGirl]

It would need to be a 2-week long cruise! 

I'm in! 

Your comments about shame were very helpful, travelgirl. I know DH feels guilt about his sons. I don't think he had any idea when they first married how she would change. One son asked him why he married his mom in the first place. DH said she wasn't like she is now when they met. He thinks there were signs of things going wrong when she became overwhelmed after their second child. And two years later, she had a third.

He would have stayed with her longer out of loyalty. He went to counselling trying to make things better. He says he felt like a failure when the marriage ended. Now he can look back and see the impact of her illness of him, but mostly on the kids. He wishes now he left a lot sooner for the kids sake.

I would guess that although he talks about guilt, he would also say he feels shame. Shame that he couldn't 'fix' things.  Shame that he wasn't able to make it better for their kids.

I bought DH a coffee mug that says 'You are a good dad' on the outside and 'that is all' on the inside. He loves it. Says it speaks volumes. He needs that constant reminder.

[Panda39]

I love it the BPDx cruise!  No phones allowed... .No way to contact us   We could do whatever want without waiting for a shoe to drop, obstruction, without a fight, without the drama!  We could have guest speakers do lectures... .Randi Kreger, Dr Childress, Bill Eddy and Christine Lawson  We could play a new game "guess the BPD Family member" (since we have no clue what each other looks like).  We can learn about self-care, do yoga (get our zen on), go to the spa and walk the decks for stress relief.    Hmmmmm gotta have some shopping therapy too! 

Panda39

[livednlearned]

I love it the BPDx cruise!  No phones allowed... .No way to contact us   

 

[travelgirl2912]

Sigh. I have a new update.

uBPDxw is now threatening court over the following:
1 - Not sharing in parental responsibilities (we don't take the iPod touches over to her house)
2 - I make disparaging remarks about her to the girls
3 - Fiancé refuses to engage in conversations with her for the well being of the girls
(She did get the guidance of someone in the legal field to send this email, as it is full of legal jargon and terminology that she otherwise would not have written).

Of course, all three of these are manufactured in her head, but she has set a "deadline" of 5 days for him to have a conversation with her (she demanded it), otherwise, she will pursue a court order to force fiancé to have a conversation with her to resolve these issues.

More details:
With regard to parenting responsibilities, we are the ones who handle the majority of the day-to-day responsibilities: we take the girls to tutoring, therapy, doctor's appointments, get them to read and do homework (she can't get them to read or finish homework at her house), schedule P/T conferences, we even led the charge for the older daughter to get her LD diagnosis because mom sat back with apathy about the whole thing.

My "disparaging" remarks, according to the girls: I said to my fiancé that she won't let them walk down the street (we live 5 houses away), so why would she let them walk two blocks to school? And they told her that I was saying mean things about their mom, because "she lets us stay at home by ourselves all the time, so why wouldn't she let us walk down the street?" (We talked and clarified that it wasn't a disparaging remark, but a fact, and that people can change their minds... .to which they said, "Mom changes her mind all the time!" Shocker. Also ironic: she has sternly told us that the state law says that kids ABSOLUTELY CANNOT stay at home by themselves until they are 14. Ha.)

Fiancé used to have a weekly phone call with her (which she rarely showed up for), and he told her that unless the girls were reading at her house, he wasn't no longer going to participate in the weekly call. She stopped calling after that with no further discussion, but he is the one who's "refusing" to talk.

QUESTION 1: Is this her acting out and testing/testing/testing/testing, or is this something that needs to be responded to? She's now making up stories to support her claims, and she's possibly out of control enough to carry them all the way to a judge.

QUESTION 2: How do I best support my fiancé? He is reacting to her with panic, anxiety, and "See? What you said (not engaging her) didn't work and now she's going to take me to court." He reactively even said it wasn't unreasonable for things to go back the way they were (she would let herself into his house, text 50+ times a day, ZERO boundaries because of FOG... .) How do I help him while also protecting US so we don't slide back to where she had control over him through their daughters?

Thanks in advance. It never ends, does it. *sigh*

[bunny4523]

Sigh. I have a new update.

uBPDxw is now threatening court over the following:
1 - Not sharing in parental responsibilities (we don't take the iPod touches over to her house)
2 - I make disparaging remarks about her to the girls
3 - Fiancé refuses to engage in conversations with her for the well being of the girls
(She did get the guidance of someone in the legal field to send this email, as it is full of legal jargon and terminology that she otherwise would not have written).

Of course, all three of these are manufactured in her head, but she has set a "deadline" of 5 days for him to have a conversation with her (she demanded it), otherwise, she will pursue a court order to force fiancé to have a conversation with her to resolve these issues

Ok so here is what I would try. First do not panic
Second translate her message - She is upset about a few things she would like to have a conversation to share her thoughts.

I would simply ignore the terminology and threats... .by responding something like
"You seem really upset , of course we can talk about what is effecting the girls. I'm available tomorrow between blank and blank time"

Empathize with her need but Don't buy into her nonsense about making you out to be unreachable or unavailable to communicate. Prove her wrong by responding.

She will try to exaggerate and intensify the situations. Let her vent/ get it out. If she gets loud or insulting you need to let her know that you will need to end the conversation for now until she can calmly speak to you. Don't get caught up in defending yourself like you are doing in this post... .Don't buy into her delusion of you.

Have your fiancé tell her he will need to think about what she has said and get back to her if he starts feeling pressure. Let her threaten court. It's ok. If someone really wants to go to court, they will probably just file not talk about filing. Her claims are bogus anyways.

Don't try to reason with her or defend yourself. Just listen and agree to think about it. Remember you don't need to react to what she says Immediately. Respond at your own pace with short responses whenever possible.

You can limit these conversations too, set aside time when your ok with it. We let my husbands ex just blow off steam from time to time. It seems to be about once a month.  She goes on and on without us even saying a word. We literally have her on mute and have our own conversation. it's annoying to have to deal with it but a lot less energy than before when we tried to reason and defend ourselves.

I hope some of these ideas work for you and help take the edge off. I know how frustrating it can be but it can get better.

Bunny

[livednlearned]

bunny4523 has really good advice

This blow-up may also be more about her feeling incompetent and inadequate, and less about your H not bending a knee.

She found out from the girls that you think she's a bad mom (her interpretation). This probably activated intolerable feelings of inadequacy, and like a little kid, she went running to a higher authority (court option) to punch back. Only that will make up for what she desperately lacks (adequacy, respect, etc.).

Like bunny4523 recommends, you can address the emotional dysregulation by validating her feelings in your response. If she is not too far gone, a dose of validation may slow her roll. I would also make sure that the response shows you are ok with court so she doesn't think "aha, court threats work."

Maybe something like, "You feel aggravated by the way we are handling parental responsibilities -- I understand, and am ok sorting this out in court if you think that's best." Give her a small sense of competence here so she doesn't keep trying to soothe herself. This is what causes so much of the trouble, because her ways of self-soothing are often destructive to everyone around her.

It may also help to respond to your husband with validation, too, to help him with his own rising panic. People with BPD tend to catastrophize and their anxiety can be pretty contagious. When we feel anxious or emotionally flooded, it gets hard to solve problems. You are probably the person best positioned to get perspective and not let the emotions overwhelm everyone.

My SO is an excellent problem solver and rational actor, but when it comes to his uBPD ex or his uBPD D19, he can backslide and have a hard time seeing what look to me like obvious solutions.

[Panda39]

I use this analogy all the time... .

Like the little kid that want's candy in the grocery store and mom says no (not good for little kid "boundary".  The little kid begins to whine mom says no (reinforces the boundary).  The little kid starts to scream and cry (we've all seen this  ).  What happens if mom gives in and says yes?  That little kid has learned if they scream and yell loud enough mom will give in (boundary caves in).  If mom continues to enforce her boundary and say no the little kid will eventually figure out they are not getting any candy.

You've set new boundaries so she's acting like the little kid... .I'd say we are at whining so she could get worse before it gets better.  Bunny has some good ideas to try and de-escalate the situation, just be careful not to validate the invalid.  But if you hold your boundaries... .not responding to erroneous stuff (which IMO this is) she will likely escalate to a full on tantrum or an "Extinction Burst" more on that below... .

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=85479.0

For your fiance... .take a deep breath, she's blowing FOG (Fear Obligation Guilt)... .using emotional blackmail... .when you take the emotion out of this and look at that list objectively is any of it true?  Not does she believe it's true because for someone with BPD Feelings=Facts.  She is using on you what my SO's uBPDxw used on him... .you are an uncooperative bad dad.  Don't buy it.

Panda39

[bunny4523]

Yes lived and learned... .good point about court. We used to always get threats of court until I said, "ok we can file with the court if you want and it can become the revised court order. All we need to do is file this form... .And have it filed with the court. I've done it before and can take care of that once we've come to an agreement"
She quickly knew court didn't scare me and haven't heard a peek out of her again

Since BPD escalate and magnify issues, it's very important for us to "contain" or even make the Robles seem smaller and more manageable. Rather than saying that we did something wrong, I tend to say I'm really sorry that was a misunderstanding... .we didn't mean it that way. We meant this. I can see why you'd be upset

Keep posting! Your on the right track

[travelgirl2912]

Thanks for all the help and advice. We had a meeting with an attorney, which was really good/a turning point for my fiancé. He heard the following from outside, independent counsel:

1 - That we have every right to parent how we want to parent, whether the uBPDxw agrees with it or not. (As long as we are not doing anything to hurt them, abuse them, put them in danger, illegal stuff... .of course.) She suggested we use the following as a response to all of the BS emails she sends:

"It is clear that we disagree on the best ways to parent the girls. I feel that we are doing the right thing by teaching the girls responsibility for their belongings." [SEND and done].

She did say that responding in this way makes it clear that we did receive her email while still setting boundaries. (If it ever got to a point where we would need an independent GAL to evaluate both sets of parents, this would show that we were attempting to communicate with her and the courts couldn't then say that we weren't.)

2 - Based on the things that we discussed with her (i.e., uBPDxw minimizes the girls drinking alcohol when they are in her care; unsupervised and completely public social media profiles), attorney suggested we start keeping track as she sees a significant possibility for us to have more parenting time with the girls based on the historical rulings of the judges in our county.

As you all predicted, she hasn't moved forward with mediation. She's too busy right now. Shock. *eyeroll*

Thanks again. What a rollercoaster.