Long Distance Relationship

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

Hello. I am in a lesbian long distance relationship (almost two years)At the time we got together she told me she had Bipolar Disorder, and she used to cut herself. She works and has her own home. We have a fight about every two weeks. I have felt for a long time that she has been lying to me. I have just returned to visiting her, and although ashamed, I snooped in her cell phone to try an establish for myself some sense of what is "real". The bottom line, she lied bold faced about something I found on her phone ( I didn't tell her I had snooped) Two days later, I checked the phone again, and all of the messages I had asked about (communication with her ex boyfriend) were all deleted. We then talked openly about it. She said she was afraid of my reaction if I found out she had contact with her ex boyfriend... .so she deleted. It is enough for me that trust is broken to get out of this relationship. I told her that before I left, but she continues with texting me, saying she is going to look at her stuff and we can work this out. Suggestions please.

[Zeltar]

Hello. I am in a lesbian long distance relationship (almost two years)At the time we got together she told me she had Bipolar Disorder, and she used to cut herself. She works and has her own home. We have a fight about every two weeks. I have felt for a long time that she has been lying to me. I have just returned to visiting her, and although ashamed, I snooped in her cell phone to try an establish for myself some sense of what is "real". The bottom line, she lied bold faced about something I found on her phone ( I didn't tell her I had snooped) Two days later, I checked the phone again, and all of the messages I had asked about (communication with her ex boyfriend) were all deleted. We then talked openly about it. She said she was afraid of my reaction if I found out she had contact with her ex boyfriend... .so she deleted. It is enough for me that trust is broken to get out of this relationship. I told her that before I left, but she continues with texting me, saying she is going to look at her stuff and we can work this out. Suggestions please.

[Grey Kitty]

Can you tell us more about her lying to you?

I'd offer very different suggestions, depending on what the lie was about, and how you feel about it / how important it is to you.

What is she telling you that "smells wrong" and you suspect she's lying but don't know?

Are there other lies you are certain about like the chats with the ex-boyfriend?

[Mutt]

Hi Zeltar, 



I'd like to join Grey Kitty and welcome you. It sounds like you set boundaries, boundaries are flexible but some boundaries are not. We can't tell you what do, we can listen and guide you. Is this a flexible boundary or not? My advise, listen to your gut.

[Zeltar]

Thank you. I replied to GK, but I think it went private? I am new to messaging, and just finding your responses to what seems like chance. Am I doing this right?

[Grey Kitty]

Zeltar, (& The rest of you reading here... .) yes, I got what you meant to put up here by private message. Between us, we'll sort this out and put it up here one way or the other

[Zeltar]

 
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« Sent to: Grey Kitty  on: March 29, 2017, 02:21:03 PM »
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Thank you GK. Im not sure how to use this system for a response.
I had felt she was lying for some time about male friends she has. One situation during Christmas where she went out with work people (all male) I contacted her at what would be her 8:00 in the morning, the next morning, and she said she was staying at a friends, just got in... .told me later her boss stayed there too. Totally denies anything in proper, except she was too drunk to remember the last bar they were in. She has a past therapist that she now refers to as a "friend" only, that she helped him write his book. They have dinner together... .she becomes very defensive if I mention any of this, and dual roles. When we became involved, after six months I found out she still went hiking with her ex boyfriend ( they had slept together after a break-up... .she went over to his house drunk and had sex) this was shortly before I became involved with her. When I found out that she had not told her ex boyfriend about us ( we committed to a monogamous relationship , which is critical because of the long distance relationship) she said she would tell him, and said she did, and that was the end of their contacts, except one time a few months later. I did look at her cell phone during the recent visit, I saw contact between them, and the most recent four days before I arrived. The message seemed cryptic from him, stating "lets change to fm ############. A highlighted link... .seemed like another message link, but I don't know. A few days later I asked her if she had heard from him... .she no, not for almost a year. Of course I knew that was a lie, I asked a number of more questions, softly, and she was so convincing that by the end I doubted what I had actually saw! The next day she "forgot" her phone, and went to work. So, yes I did I check her phone messages again to see if I was totally nuts... .and all the messages between them were gone! She asked me in the evening if I had been looking through her phone? I said yes. She said well, so you know I was telling you the truth! I said no, that I had actually checked it two days prior and saw the messages. She regrouped very quickly and said that she had to erase them because I would go nuts if I saw them... .that she didn't know the dates, she didn't have any involvement with him,that she had not initiated that last contact ( that she said was a link for a radio station (?)... .that she s afraid to talk or be honest with me... .I said I asked a simple question : if you had contact with her old boyfriend, that's all, no big deal, and she said no, and then deleted the contacts... .how can I trust her? And this puts into question all of the other things that "felt" like lies to me

[Grey Kitty]

So when it comes to the lying/evasion, I'd sorta summarize it that she seems to be semi-maybe-almost-cheating on you.

She's in contact with an ex.
She's doing things while drinking with coworkers and doesn't remember everything she did.
She has a "friend" who is a past therapist, and spends a lot of time/energy with this person. (Aside: If you are a therapist, having a non-professional r/s with a client certainly is an ethics violation. Likely is with a former client as well!)

And if these things come up, she gets mad, gets defensive, and tries to hide her tracks.

I don't have much in the way of suggestions for you. It is her choice to cheat on you or be faithful to you. You really cannot control which she will do.

Perhaps equally disturbing, it is for her to define what is cheating and what is on the "safe" or "ok" side of that line. (The two of you should understand, agree, and negotiate this, but that can be a failing too; One of those failures was a big event in the end of my marriage.)

Unfortunately, now you know she's willing to put a fair amount of effort into hiding some of these things from you. It would be hard to believe she isn't hiding more, or won't hide more later.

[Zeltar]

Thank you Grey Kitty. Yes, and of course I do not have factual evidence on what have been obvious concerns to me since we have been together (the things you have listed). She has what sounds like credible explanations for everything... .but my gut has said otherwise. I did ask that we both write up our commitments to this relationship, in detail, which she did. It was not until I actually had substantive proof that she was in fact lying to me ( when I had snooped in the cell phone record) I finally had factual information that I could ask her about ( knowing the real truth beforehand), and watched her lie. I wasn't so concerned about the content of the messages or who was the one who initiated the contacts etc. It was just that when asked, she lied and then tried to cover up the lie by deleting all of the contacts,creating another lie, and I think intentionally left her phone for me to snoop the next day, to see there were no contacts. She had no way of knowing that I had actually snooped a few days prior. It was a perfect storm ,for finding out the truth, if you know what I mean, and it broke my heart, as I listened and watched her lie. I know she is mentally ill and has been since she was a child. Her body is scarred with deep long cuts, she has spent over a year at one time in the mental hospital. She met her ex-boyfriend in the mental hospital... .and he sounds to be very damaged himself. She has made great strides since we have been together, (new, really good  job, moving, her own home) the long distance kind of relationship seems to suit her, and I believe I have been a great support.I am the one who  travels to see her every three months (for a month at a time) I do not think other people would spot her as being mentally ill. She has had problematic very short term interpersonal relationships in the past. My dilemma is that I know I can never trust her again, I know for certain she is not truthful. I told her without trust there is no relationship for me. She wants to do a review of herself and then discuss with me... .no timeline... .but she thinks we can still have a relationship, she believes she can get clear on herself. I honestly do not. I am also not sure she is just not taking advantage of me... .in her phone I saw hundreds of men's telephone numbers. When I asked about that, and the odd listing of "old1, old2,old3,old4 etc" for many numbers on each ( and I have no idea what that means), she got angry and said they were all cycling friends. She is mentally ill... .I know, but do I just tell her this wont work out, and just end it? I don't know how I could remain in a relationship with her... .I would be questioning her all the time in my mind, and we live thousands of miles apart. Any insight?

[Chaffers]

It took me a long time to learn that it just isn't worth checking on my exes phone... No matter how much she wanted me to.

 Sometimes shed want me to in order to stoke jealousy, sometimes she'd have it locked up like fort Knox. She became very adept at deleting things. 

Going through my phone seemed to be her hobby. Now that I've started getting back in touch with some old friends several have said they had calls from her, it seems she rang any male names to make sure I didn't have a woman listed secretivly.

I lost count of the number of times she claimed to be able to prove my infidelity. Admittedly some bloke with the same name in America did need an explanation though accusations based upon spam emails for viagra and the like were pathetic.

She'd also nick my phone and create predictive text stories. Literally sit there seeing what predictions she'd get for each letter and carry on until they 'proved'  I'd been seeing someone. These were quite involved, apparently I had a girlfriend in America who I had stayed in a hotel with a piano bar. She had red hair etc etc... .

Same with GPS positioning. I had to explain every single place I'd ever been even if the addresses weren't accurate. Hers on the other hand was just wrong.

It wasn't 100% one sided. At one point I was so desperate to find out what she was doing I smashed her phone so that she would discard it ( I didn't like it anyway as another bloke had bought it for her),  then cracked it to get access.

Reading over 2000 Facebook messages where she was courting a new victim wasn't pleasant, healthy or probably even legal. Lots of foul things in there about me though most worrying was the compete lack of moral boundaries. The bloke she was chatting up was a freakshow gun nut with lots of creepy pecadillos. Still she offered to shag him the moment he walked through the door in order to put him at his ease.

In short be careful of getting yourself involved in a phone war. If you don't think you can trust them then you can't, you don't need to find either a signed confession of infidelity or worse nothing because they've cleaned their tracks.

[Zeltar]

Oh dear Chaffers that sounds horrible! I am so sorry.
No, I do not have any further interest in looking at her phone. It was very helpful for me to snoop however, because I finally had something concrete to ask her about ... .and to actually know in advance if her response was truthful or a lie. As the lie became clear I kept asking her again, softly, in different ways, to encourage her to tell me the truth. A truth I knew from the phone. I so wanted her to tell me the truth. Ultimately, It was heartbreaking and at the same time very validating for me when the face to face conversation was over. Prior, I was feeling pretty nuts myself, disbelieving what I "felt" to be true. Once caught in the lie she did not deny it, but minimized the import. To me the damage to trust was done, and I do not see how it can ever be undone. No, I have no need to ever look at her phone again. I am seeking advise on a kind  and hopefully not harmful way of ending this relationship. I do not see any other way around it.

[Chaffers]

 Surely in a long distance relationship the distance itself is the most likely reason for a relationship to end.

 Clearly you don't trust her at a distance, and if she is borderline you shouldn't trust her if she says the sky is blue.

Wiath my ex I sometimes told her what had happened, rather than what she told me happened, and she still wouldn't tell me the truth. I might then give her as soft a fall as possible, explaining how I'd understand if this or that had happened, or I'm surprised it didn't happen. Still wouldn't tell me the truth.

[Zeltar]

Thank you so much for your insight Chaffers.

[Grey Kitty]

It would be very hard for you to trust her to be faithful/monogamous.

Even though you don't really know exactly how far she will go--maybe she's just chatting with guys on her phone. Maybe she's recycling with her ex.

Some people can be in an open r/s where they don't expect that from their partner. I'm not suggesting that this would or should work for you.

For me, even if I'm OK with that, the deception is even harder to deal with. It is hard to let go of wondering what she's up to when you know she isn't forthcoming about it. Really hard. Especially long distance where you won't see much of what is going on.

... .what you can do is accept that this is who she is, and expect her to continue behaving this way.

And decide what you want in a relationship with her based on that understanding.

[Zeltar]

Thank you for your wise counsel Grey Kitty.
I told her before I left ( five days ago) that I cannot be in a relationship if there is no trust, or the trust is gravely broke, as it is. She seems to not be taking that in, and feels she can do something about this loss of trust by some action on her part. I am curious of course... .and yet cannot imagine anyway she can fix this... .that I would ever trust her again.
I feel stuck at the moment. Trying to factor in her illness, and lack of acceptance, or acknowledgement  that we no longer have a relationship. She asked me to give her time to work this out and get back to me. In the meantime she continues with regular daily chats as if nothing has changed. I am confused, and wondering if I just say : I no longer have a relationship with you because I do not trust you... .and suggest no more contacts... .or wait and see what she comes up with. Part of me of course hopes that she can come up with something ( this is where I think I am delusional holding any kind of hope she could become honest) I do not wish to be harsh or unkind. I have read that it is best for people with BPD to make the decision on the break-up, as it is easier on all concerned if they feel the decision came from them. Your thoughts on any of this would be greatly appreciated.

[Grey Kitty]

I think it is best for the person who needs/wants to get out of the r/s to decide to end things.

And from what you say about her, she isn't likely to decide to break up with you cleanly and decisively. This is messy, ambiguous, and uncomfortable as it is... .and she may well be willing to stay in it a loong time like this.

Speaking of the status quo in this r/s, what about the long distance aspect of it?

Do you or she have any plans to relocate to the same city, or move in together? Is there any timeline for this? And if it looks like it will go on indefinitely this way, do you find this an acceptable solution?

[Zeltar]

Thank you Grey Kitty for sound advice and noble questions. I will mull this over.

[Zeltar]

Grey Kitty,

I am trying to be very kind, but also firm that the relationship is over. I have asked her to send my house key back to me. She continues to say that we will be able to rise above these difficulties... .she does not say how, but she knows we will work it out.

I spoke with a friend about the link from her boyfriend I found on her messages. My friend said it surely sounded like a chat link that disappears after a time period. She said people who are being secret use such things.

I have not told her yet that I clicked on that link, when I was in her phone. I believe it went to the x
boyfriends number, but it said something like it timed out... .or expired, or password ( I really cannot remember) but it was not an FM radio station link that she said it was. I really did not know how to get into it. Is it wise to tell her I am aware it was a chat link and that I clicked on it... .perhaps she will finally get angry and break off from me?

After almost two years of almost constant contact by phone, text, email, I am feeling emotionally reluctant to completely cut all ties, I am feeling pretty fragile about it all at this point, and am not sure what to do. I am feeling pretty nuts as well.

[Grey Kitty]

I am trying to be very kind, but also firm that the relationship is over. I have asked her to send my house key back to me. She continues to say that we will be able to rise above these difficulties... .she does not say how, but she knows we will work it out.

I would like to draw the distinction between "kind" and "nice". Kind is being generous and acting in the other's interests. Nice is avoiding conflict by being friendly, whether it is actually kind or not.

Letting her insist that you will rise above these difficulties is avoiding the conflict and unpleasantness which will happen when you insist that it is over. It is also stringing her along with false hopes, which isn't really fair to her... .

... .except that you are not yet sure you do want to end it/give up:

After almost two years of almost constant contact by phone, text, email, I am feeling emotionally reluctant to completely cut all ties, I am feeling pretty fragile about it all at this point, and am not sure what to do. I am feeling pretty nuts as well.

So letting this r/s stumble along in ambiguity while you decide if you will end seems reasonable... .at least until you decide.

Is it wise to tell her I am aware it was a chat link and that I clicked on it... .perhaps she will finally get angry and break off from me?

I wouldn't. Manipulating her to breaking up with you isn't fair to her. Tell her you are done if you mean it. Insist that she mail back your key... .or just change the locks and tell her to throw away the key after you did it.

Even worse is that you cannot trust her to actually break up with you, if you did. Yes, she will get mad, and yes, she will treat you badly when she's mad. But she seems to be getting something which works for her, having both you and this exbf with some kind of connection, so she has no good reason to truly and cleanly end either r/s. I'd be afraid that she would still believe it will work out with you somehow.