How Do I Respond to This Text?

[Depression = 72% of members]

My pwBPD just sent me this text message:

It's all I can do not to surrender to the sadness and anxiety I feel about us. For instance, I'm sure you have plans and they aren't to do good things (what I would mean by good things) for us. Probably beginning with not giving me a [new diamond engagement] ring and continuing by filing for bankruptcy without my knowledge or consent. I don't know for sure. But something. And every day I rail against it and wish and mentally beg (because I don't pray) that you'll be a different you. The one you promised me. So that I don't have to cry through the ocean of tears that's up ahead and move on with my life on the other side. So that I don't have to start from square one after 17 years of loving someone. So we could finally have one real happily ever after in this life. But I know you'll never really stop.

How do I respond to this?

For background: I do NOT plan on buying her a new diamond engagement ring until we have paid all our debt, which will be many years from now. To that end, I may need to file for bankruptcy, and if I do, I will likely do it without consulting her.

[DaddyBear77]

My pwBPD just sent me this text message:

It's all I can do not to surrender to the sadness and anxiety I feel about us. For instance, I'm sure you have plans and they aren't to do good things (what I would mean by good things) for us. Probably beginning with not giving me a [new diamond engagement] ring and continuing by filing for bankruptcy without my knowledge or consent. I don't know for sure. But something. And every day I rail against it and wish and mentally beg (because I don't pray) that you'll be a different you. The one you promised me. So that I don't have to cry through the ocean of tears that's up ahead and move on with my life on the other side. So that I don't have to start from square one after 17 years of loving someone. So we could finally have one real happily ever after in this life. But I know you'll never really stop.

How do I respond to this?

For background: I do NOT plan on buying her a new diamond engagement ring until we have paid all our debt, which will be many years from now. To that end, I may need to file for bankruptcy, and if I do, I will likely do it without consulting her.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[peacemountain]

Wow that is one heck of a loaded text. Here's how I would probably approach it... .

1. Try to understand what is the message BEHIND the text. There's lot's of circumstances that she's bringing up, but what is she really communicating if you were to paraphrase it? "I feel insecure in our relationship and I need you to reassure me" or "I'm having a lot of anxiety and I want you to fix it" or... .
2. Validate THAT message (not all the circumstances or assumptions she's mentioning)
3. When validating make sure you're alloing HER to work through her own emotions. It's important not to take ownership of them or "fix" them
4. Try not to JADE all the assumptions and behaviors she brings up

I'm sure there's lots of good options... .this is just what I would try with my current knowledge of the tools. Good luck and let us know how it goes!

[isilme]

You also might want to avoid tackling it as a text response and try to set up a time to talk in person.  Texts get misread, misunderstood all the time, and this is a lot to go through using electrons.  Face to face is probably best if possible - at least your face and meaning can be seen better that way, and while it's not impossible for things to be twisted, still, it's less easy, and you can see more than a screen for how she's taking your responses. 

[Notwendy]

I agree with not responding by text.

This is also "everything but the kitchen sink" a whole lot of things all into one.

She wants a diamond ring. But you are not in a good financial situation. Still - she could want one- there isn't anything wrong with wanting one . Maybe you want a Ferrari. Ok so we want what we want.  

but in the real world, we also have to be able to afford what we want if we are going to get it.

She wants you to be different. I would guess you want her to be different. But the reality is that you are you, she is who she is.

She doesn't want you to file for bankruptcy. Fair enough. You probably don't want to either. I can't imagine anyone wants to do that, but people do it if they have no other choice.

So there is SET- validate the feelings, then present the facts. ( not by text)

Honey, I know that you want the ring, and if we could afford it, I would buy the ring, but there is no money for a ring.

Honey I understand you don't want us to file for bankruptcy. I don't want to either. But it may be the only choice we have to get on our feet financially, and if it is, then it is something I need to do.

My own reaction to this is that it doesn't seem connected to reality. Are you a husband or are you Santa Claus? Because you are not Santa Claus.

She wants you to be different- but if this being different means someone with unlimited funds, then no matter what you do at the moment, this isn't you ( and it isn't most people). One idea would be to just state the situation as it is. Honey, I am a man who earns a living that can afford some of the things you want, but not all of the things you want. Because I do want to give you what you want, I have overextended myself financially. I can not do this anymore. So this is the reality. If you stay with me, you will have to accept that you won't get this diamond ring, or other items that we can not afford anytime soon. If that is not acceptable to you, then yes, you can make your own choices about what you want to do about that. However, my plans are to get back on my feet financially.

[isilme]

She wants you to be different- but if this being different means someone with unlimited funds, then no matter what you do at the moment, this isn't you ( and it isn't most people

I think she is also grasping at material things to demonstrate showing her love, when really, that is a juvenile expectation.  She is focusing on things she wants you to give her, to allow her to feel you love her - not simply allowing you to love her and accepting that you do.  And since BPD is centered on them feeling horrible inside and needing to blame all those feelings on those closest to them, and she can't put into words the feelings inside her, she is fixating on material items. 

So addressing the feelings may make her less anxious about the currently unattainable items.

Just curious - you stated NEW diamond engagement ring.  Does this mean there is an engagement ring currently on her hand?

[DaddyBear77]

Just curious - you stated NEW diamond engagement ring.  :)oes this mean there is an engagement ring currently on her hand?

She has an engagement ring from when I proposed 16 years ago, but refuses to wear it because it was "cheap" and therefore "meaningless."

The longer story: We discussed marriage and spent some time looking at rings. She saw a custom ring with two diamonds and an emerald and said "THATS the kind of ring I want, but not that one, I'd like one made just for me!" So, a few weeks later, I proposed to her in Paris with a generic silver ring in my hand. A few weeks after that, with the help of a family friend in the business, we spent a day buying the stones, findings, and had the ring custom made while we waited. There are only a few places in the world where this kind of thing is even possible. At the time she loved it, but as I said, as time went on she decided it was too cheap and really, what was I thinking trying to pawn off a cheap silver ring in the first place? And, furthermore, she "settled" for a custom ring, because she knew I wouldn't buy her a traditional ring anyway and she at least wanted SOMETHING to show. How embarrassing must it have been for her to go around without a ring after she was engaged?

Anyway, you get the idea. But yes, she has a ring.

[Notwendy]

Really? How embarrassing to be taken to Paris, proposed to, and have a custom ring?

Some women would have thought that was the most romantic thing ever.

Was it ever about you, the marriage, or just what you could buy her?

I understand the feeling of wanting to be loved and to have proof. I admit to appreciating a gift of jewelry too, but a relationship is much more than that. There are many ways a person can love someone else.

Personally, I would not want someone who was facing financial problems to buy me a ring.

The problem with looking at something expensive as proof of being loved is that it doesn't work. The feeling of emptiness inside someone with BPD is there regardless. If money, gifts- could fix that, we'd all be going out to get something to fix the issue but because it doesn't - there is something usually wrong with the gift, it isn't enough.

Liz Taylor got a 69.2 K Harry Winston Diamond from Richard Burton and she still was married 8 times and that didn't do it.

The ring your wife wants is some sort of magical thinking- if only I had this ring from you, I'd be happy. How many times has that worked?

[Grey Kitty]

A wise friend of mine once said this about texts like that:

There isn't a question, so I don't have to answer it.

I mean she's either trying to beat you up emotionally, provoke a fight with you, or guilt you into buying her another ring.

And there really isn't a single direct request or question at all in the whole thing.


The whole custom ring thing reminds me of crap my wife used to do in our darkest days when her BPD was the worst and I didn't have skills to cope with it.

She would get in this mood where she was going to berate me because my actions clearly proved I didn't love her. If I surprised her with flowers, it was because I was guilty. If I got flowers on Valentine's day, it was because I had to. If I got her something when she asked for it, it didn't count because she asked.

It didn't matter if I did anything, everything, or nothing, she would move the target, then tell me how awful I was for missing it. Again.


Ultimately, she has a giant pit of emotional need deep inside her, and it is like a black hole that can never be filled up. She is telling you that a new ring will fill the need, and she will feel loved and appreciated. She probably believes it. And if you did buy her the ring of her dreams, at most it will fill it for a brief period, but more likely she will find fault with it too.

[isilme]

Ugh - so she has a ring-  she is just trying to pick a fight so she can vent her emotions and ret-con them into being your fault. 

I know I was sad when I had no ring and no engagement, but really, a few months before he was able to propose, H TOLD me he wanted me for his wife.  That was what I needed.  The ring and the engagement were still something I'd like, but the aching feeling in my heart had lessened a lot.  I knew that with BPD, that may have been all I could ever expect from him, and had been working to make my peace with that.  When he DID propose, and actually followed through with one of the few things he's ever followed through with, it was like a miracle.  Getting him on a plane and to the wedding was even more of one.

I know you've prolly spoken since this post, but I agree that she is trying to fill a void inside her, and blames you for it existing because it can't possibly be anything she has or hasn't done.  My BPD mom is like this - she likes things.  She will acquire things, even if it's using hot checks to get them.  She will shoplift, and get arrested, but it was not her fault - someone put that jewelry in her purse to make her look bad.  Hell - I've been guilty of fulfillment shopping.  It's a nice feeling to get things.  But if you are fighting against bankruptcy, that needs to take a backseat.

[DaddyBear77]

This thread has been immensely helpful. Thank you all.

This text was sent about 24 hours ago, and we've probably fought now for a good 16 out of those 24.

Things continue to get worse and worse.

Unless I can put my fears aside and face this situation head on, I am going to leave my daughter, my wife, and myself homeless and without a car.

Last I checked, you can't live in a diamond ring, and you can't drive a diamond ring to work.

[Grey Kitty]

Unless I can put my fears aside and face this situation head on, I am going to leave my daughter, my wife, and myself homeless and without a car.

Uhm, you sound like you aren't sure which option to take?

[DaddyBear77]

Uhm, you sound like you aren't sure which option to take?

  great observation GK

[Skip]

It's all I can do not to surrender to the sadness and anxiety I feel about us. For instance, I'm sure you have plans and they aren't to do good things (what I would mean by good things) for us. Probably beginning with not giving me a [new diamond engagement] ring and continuing by filing for bankruptcy without my knowledge or consent. I don't know for sure. But something. And every day I rail against it and wish and mentally beg (because I don't pray) that you'll be a different you. The one you promised me. So that I don't have to cry through the ocean of tears that's up ahead and move on with my life on the other side. So that I don't have to start from square one after 17 years of loving someone. So we could finally have one real happily ever after in this life. But I know you'll never really stop.

You guys have been fighting ever since day 1. You are fighting in the last 16 of 24 hours. This is no good.

Sounds like she blames it on you. Sounds like you blame it on her. This is no good.

When I see this note, I see the highlighted words. I think her "sadness and anxiety" may be related more to these words than the others... .I don'kt know, but I might suggest going down that path with a empathetic ear.

How does she want you to be different? How does she want the relationship to be different? What s it that she wants you to stop?

[DaddyBear77]

How does she want you to be different? How does she want the relationship to be different? What s it that she wants you to stop?

In 17 years of fights, you can imagine that we've covered off on exactly how she wants me to be different. There's what she SAYS she wants, and then there is what I think she must ACTUALLY want but can't / won't articulate.

What she says she wants is for me to be a good provider. She wants me to WANT to give her nice things and make a nice life for her. She contends that since I was raised in a low income rural area of the US, I'm not aspiring to do better than that. She was raised in a relatively affluent area of the US and she expects that I will provide her a life that includes more. When it became clear that I wasn't making enough money to pay for the things she wanted, she expected me to work harder at my job, get promotions, take a second job if needed. These are literally the things she's asked for, and it's her real answer when I ask her what she wants to be different.

I used to listen to all of that and say "but I AM providing a nice life! Don't you see how much better this is than what I had? Can't you see that I'm working long hours at a high paying job, and I'm stretched to my limit?"

But now, I'm starting to just feel really sad for her. She truly DOES think that I'm failing her, and that me working harder and providing more things will fix the empty feelings she clearly has but won't examine. She's had life threatening eating disorders since her late teens, and other self harm which has subsided in recent years (these and other symptoms clearly indicate BPD). Add to that, a clear obsession with how she'll look to other people (embarrassing jewelry, insufficient cosmetic surgery, unstyled hair) - yes, normal people have normal desires along these lines, but she has what appears to be a unhealthy and destructive obsession with these things - these indicate NPD symptoms to me.

So, asking what she wants seems like asking a child the same question and expecting a healthy response, but I DO have a response and there it is.

[Grey Kitty]

Q: Is there nothing she wants from you that doesn't involve spending a lot of money on her?

What she says she wants is for me to be a good provider. She wants me to WANT to give her nice things and make a nice life for her.

[... .]I am going to leave my daughter, my wife, and myself homeless and without a car.

Last I checked, you can't live in a diamond ring, and you can't drive a diamond ring to work.

... .in other words, her direct demands (Buy another diamond ring) would probably be the final thing destroying all the rest she wanted (and got!) from you.

I've got no doubt she wants more, but she also doesn't want to lose what she does have.

[Skip]

I used to listen... .
But now, I'm starting to just feel really sad for her... .
She truly DOES think that I'm failing her... .

You both sound very entrenched in disagreement.

Before this crashes and burns, you make want to give a second thought to whether her plea is about "stuff" or if its about her not feeling loved and adored and the center of your universe. I take it that "gifts" are her love language. Do you give her any gifts in a romantic way and tell her that you adore her? Maybe you could take her on a picnic by the lake and court her a bit and give her a zirconium dioxide diamond as a token of your love and to be replaced with the real thing some day.

As men, we sometimes get hung-up in the technical details and miss the forest for the trees.

This is on our Facebook page:

[cubicinch]

I've had similar, she felt neglected, had worries about what I'd bought her for christmas, might upset her...   and she admitted she was upset at christmas because she wanted it to be good because it was always a sad time for her. Sounds like loneliness, depression and childhood regression, feelings that developed as a child which have never left or matured into normal feelings.

I agree, dont try and sort it by text, sit with that person. I did and I could see the jumble of confusion and mental illness sat before me. I didn't know what to do at that time not knowing BPD, so I left. I did go back a few days after and she was right as rain again. She did enjoy christmas but once back to her own home, back to the old self. I feel sad for her, and miss her but relieved I no longer have to deal with her. 

[cubicinch]

I have mixed feelings about this theory that we could be missing the point and that all they want are the signs that we love them, the material things. Even wanting the feeling of being loved and adored... .we probably do, and buy them the nice things when we can, but caution is needed as it could well be that they just need to try and put out this burning fire inside them, but nothing we could ever do would put it out. I think my ex gf was neglected as a child and treated/spoken to so poorly. It's affected the rest of her social life. Nothing I did or said seemed ever right, and the nice gifts I bought her, were greeted very cautiously, never giving away too much emotions, like those walls around her heart are just too high. For the record, the gifts she gave me for christmas were more functional, some effort put in, but nothing really that showed her true affection. I was lucky to get a gift tag which said 'love from... .' on it.

Even something as simple as fresh flowers each time I went to see her, I know she loved and adored, treasured and looked after, but I was never once kissed and hugged in return. No affection given to me, it was locked away not to be seen as weakness.

[DaddyBear77]

It's so stressful sitting across from someone who demands expensive things while at the same time knowing you can't pay the mortgage this month, etc.

I still buy her flowers 2 or 3 times a week. She frequently complains that they're not always from a florist.

4 years ago I bought her less expensive earrings than the ones she wanted. I promised to "upgrade" them as soon as I could. And literally every day for the next 2 years she demanded I upgrade them immediately.

Every night before we go to sleep, I turn the bedroom into a candlelit spa and give her a 30 minute back massage. Not sexual - we haven't had sex in over a year - just a loving gesture to show her I care.

I'm sorry if I sound defensive here - maybe there are some other things I'm not doing / should be doing. I DO often think maybe I'm not trying hard enough / trying the right things.

[cubicinch]

It's so stressful sitting across from someone who demands expensive things while at the same time knowing you can't pay the mortgage this month, etc.

I still buy her flowers 2 or 3 times a week. She frequently complains that they're not always from a florist.

4 years ago I bought her less expensive earrings than the ones she wanted. I promised to "upgrade" them as soon as I could. And literally every day for the next 2 years she demanded I upgrade them immediately.

Every night before we go to sleep, I turn the bedroom into a candlelit spa and give her a 30 minute back massage. Not sexual - we haven't had sex in over a year - just a loving gesture to show her I care.

I'm sorry if I sound defensive here - maybe there are some other things I'm not doing / should be doing. I DO often think maybe I'm not trying hard enough / trying the right things.

Everyone would say you are doing everything in your power to look after this person; there's little more you can do. It sounds like you are being unappreciated to me; take them away and then see what they say...  

[cubicinch]

Surely anyone who loves you enough will understand that there's only so much you can offer currently... If someone is tardy and not contributing financially towards the partnership then fair comment, but if he/she's unhappy then why stay? That person needs to understand that they are hurting you, but I would read up on how to deal with it first. THat's what I'd do. They can't keep hurting you.

[Skip]

I'm sorry if I sound defensive here - maybe there are some other things I'm not doing / should be doing. I DO often think maybe I'm not trying hard enough / trying the right things.

That's a lot. Few women get that after a decade of marriage.

there's little more you can do. It sounds like you are being unappreciated to me... .

Maybe. Maybe not.

None of us have any reliable understanding of this relationship. I think the important point is that DaddyBear77 step back an reflect on it all and decide if its a fair (or close to fair) plea to feel more loved (there is no logic here) or if it's an deep dark hole with no bottom.

The flip side of "doing more" is to tell her that you also don't feel loved/respected and that certain things are really hard on you - like her dissatisfaction with the life you are doing your best to provide. I wouldn't do this as an argument, but maybe in a "how do we fix this" warm discussion (maybe over that backrub).

In the end, there is a child involved, most of us want to leave no stone un-turned, and we also need to know when we are unhealthy situation that has no horizon of improvement.

[Notwendy]

I agree that with the wish to explore all options to keep a family together. However, one issue I see here is the pattern of overspending in the attempt to keep the marriage.

I know that I am influenced by having grown up with this kind of situation. What I observed was that providing my BPD mother with expensive things may have made her feel good in the moment, it didn't affect her feeling badly in the long run because her feeling not loved enough was part of her issues. I also think it probably hurt my parents' marriage as I could see the effect of financial debt on my father. He was a kind and generous man, but under stress was irritable. In addition, when someone buys or gives someone something just to keep the peace, the other person can sense the resentment.

Yes, it is possible to act more romantic and loving, but if the situation is that Daddybear's wife truly feels she needs items he can not afford to feel momentarily loved, then how to change this path of financial strain is a question. Buying something expensive may solve things in the moment, but putting the family in financial jeopardy isn't loving. Yes, there is a child involved, but the child needs food, shelter and the presence of a loving father who isn't so stressed out that he can be a parent to her.

The marriage is important, but the financial well being of the family is at stake. I don't see how saying "no" to the wife over spending is going to make her feel loved or happy, but overspending doesn't do that either. Doing something about the finances may jeopardize the marriage, but how does overspending save it?

[DaddyBear77]

I truly appreciate all the attention and responses to this thread. I hope that it's beneficial to others as well.

Skip, thank you for your perspective - it's really important to ask challenging questions, and that's exactly how I took it.

Notwendy, I continue to see the parallels between what happened in your FOO and what's happening with me.

Today, I'm faced with a choice - i just found out that my paycheck this month will be much less than I needed it to be. I have a long list of items requiring immediate attention, and now I have to consider whether I pay the mortgage OR the utilities. And when I tried to bring this up with my pwBPD, she called me "scum" for suggesting she wait another 2 weeks to get her car AC fixed. She uses her car once a week on average for a 10 minute drive to therapy. The rest of the time I drive. In 8 years of owning her car, she has 33,000 miles. In 3 years of owning mine, I have nearly 100,000.

But none of that is even really the point - the point is, this bottomless pit of need will NEVER EVER be filled. And by the fact that I am choosing to throw our house, our electric, our water, our groceries into this pit makes it clear that *I* have a serious problem.

I know what needs to be done. It sucks. I'm sad. I'm incredibly anxious. But none of that changes the fact that i know what needs to be done.

[GaGrl]

A choice between paying your mortgage or utilities is indeed a crisis point. The overspending has reached the point you have nothing in reserve - either through a savings fund for emergencies or those uneven months or through available credit lines.

Sometimes it takes a crisis to clarify our thinking. Painful as it might be, rather than fighting it, just lean into it.

[happendtome]

It could be also that she is wanting to break up with you and she has already found the new supply you dont know yet. She may pick up things she knows you cant do and then she has the reason for break up and say it was all your fault anyway. Im not saying it is the case here, but it could be.

[JohnLove]

DaddyBear77, I find your wifes behaviour pretty revolting. You dont need to disclose $ here but from your account you were living well until her overspending.

Even if she is an "uptown" girl if she truly loved you what you could afford her would be of little consequence.

[peacemountain]

But none of that is even really the point - the point is, this bottomless pit of need will NEVER EVER be filled.

You hit the nail on the head. I think the one thing we can all agree on here is that looking to someone else to fulfill our happiness, our loneliness, our need will NEVER bring fulfillment. It is something that we have to find within ourselves. This is equally true for our partners. We can validate, we can love, we can give and give, but it will NEVER be enough until they find a way to fulfill it themselves.

DaddyBear, I admire your honest look at yourself. It speaks of your responsibility, maturity, and courage. You've been put in an impossible situation and you can only move forward knowing the TRUTH (regardless of the distortions you're hearing right now). By making the difficult financial decisions and setting boundaries in love, you ARE in fact loving your wife. You're caring for your family's well being. It's all you can do.