In sickness and in health

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

A quick intro - I met my husband when I was 14 and he was 15.  We married when I was 19.  That was 21.5 years and 2 beautiful children ago.  Our is finishing up his Freshman year of college and our youngest is finishing up his 8th grade year. 
Looking back, I can see the BPD all through our relationship.  Basically growing up with him, I also know the roots of the BPD.  It's only been in the past year, since his behaviors put my oldest child at risk of not graduating (he was being homeschooled by my husband) that I started feeling that there was no hope left in me that our relationship would ever improve.  2.5 months ago I finally moved out and started processing the realization that my relationship has been abusive for as long as I can remember, but the abuse has always been covert.  This week, at the request of our counselor (who have seen together but are now seeing separately) he emailed me his psychiatric evaluation that included a diagnosis of BPD.  He wasn't going to share it with me included the statement "Our counselor thinks I should work on section 7", with section 7 being where the diagnosis was listed.
I have (or want to have) a deep Christian faith.  I have made it through the past 21 years of marriage because I believe that vows are for a lifetime.  The past 2.5 months I have questioned God over and over about what would be grounds for permanent separation or divorce.  While I haven't felt called to go back to living with my husband or working on our relationship, I also haven't felt completely released to take any more permanent measures.  My view of "what is wrong" has been that my husband has sinned against me and is unrepentant for those sins, so I can distance myself from him. 
Now there is a diagnosis, and that diagnosis has somehow changed the way I look at my responsibility.  Now I feel like I am held in the marriage by my vow to love, honor, and cherish him IN SICKNESS AND IN HEALTH.  I find myself weeping because it feels like I've been sentenced to a life of creating and holding boundaries to protect myself from the person who I am supposed to be "one flesh" with.  I don't know how to receive love and be intimate with him anymore.  Part of me wishes I could "unsee" the abuse and regain hope that if I just found the right words, or was "enough" for him, things could change.
So I guess this boils down to a request for some probing questions, brilliant insights, and "I've been there, you'll make it through" sharing from anyone who has faced the same situation.
Thanks,
BeagleGirl

[BeagleGirl]

A quick intro - I met my husband when I was 14 and he was 15.  We married when I was 19.  That was 21.5 years and 2 beautiful children ago.  Our is finishing up his Freshman year of college and our youngest is finishing up his 8th grade year. 
Looking back, I can see the BPD all through our relationship.  Basically growing up with him, I also know the roots of the BPD.  It's only been in the past year, since his behaviors put my oldest child at risk of not graduating (he was being homeschooled by my husband) that I started feeling that there was no hope left in me that our relationship would ever improve.  2.5 months ago I finally moved out and started processing the realization that my relationship has been abusive for as long as I can remember, but the abuse has always been covert.  This week, at the request of our counselor (who have seen together but are now seeing separately) he emailed me his psychiatric evaluation that included a diagnosis of BPD.  He wasn't going to share it with me included the statement "Our counselor thinks I should work on section 7", with section 7 being where the diagnosis was listed.
I have (or want to have) a deep Christian faith.  I have made it through the past 21 years of marriage because I believe that vows are for a lifetime.  The past 2.5 months I have questioned God over and over about what would be grounds for permanent separation or divorce.  While I haven't felt called to go back to living with my husband or working on our relationship, I also haven't felt completely released to take any more permanent measures.  My view of "what is wrong" has been that my husband has sinned against me and is unrepentant for those sins, so I can distance myself from him. 
Now there is a diagnosis, and that diagnosis has somehow changed the way I look at my responsibility.  Now I feel like I am held in the marriage by my vow to love, honor, and cherish him IN SICKNESS AND IN HEALTH.  I find myself weeping because it feels like I've been sentenced to a life of creating and holding boundaries to protect myself from the person who I am supposed to be "one flesh" with.  I don't know how to receive love and be intimate with him anymore.  Part of me wishes I could "unsee" the abuse and regain hope that if I just found the right words, or was "enough" for him, things could change.
So I guess this boils down to a request for some probing questions, brilliant insights, and "I've been there, you'll make it through" sharing from anyone who has faced the same situation.
Thanks,
BeagleGirl

[Lucky Jim]

Hey BeagleGirl, Like you, I placed a high value on loyalty to my W and commitment to my marriage.  Those are good qualities, yet often go unappreciated in a BPD r/s.  I came to see my loyalty was misplaced, however, in an abusive situation.  Why was I so committed to someone who treated me poorly?  Why was I loyal to a persecutor?  It sounds like you have already taken positive steps by moving out and evaluating your r/s for what it is.  No one deserves to be the object of abuse.  I've been in your shoes and, yes, you'll make it through.  You might even be happier.

LuckyJim

[SamwizeGamgee]

Your title caught my attention.  The idea of that phrase had kept me locked in marriage.  I have been married for almost 20 years.   It had glimmers of hope and love for a while, but, the underlying abyss kept me from feeling loved, and being able to give my love to my wife.  

I have progressed a long way in the past two years (ironically, I first stumbled upon the letters "BPD" and what they stand for, while reading a religious book about marriage and intimacy).  I had absolutely banished the concept of divorce prior to that.  That was based on religious doctrine, so I simply denied the idea of divorce.  But, I was tormented by marriage.  Because of the hopeless, sexless, love-less, and covertly abusive marriage I was in, I was also essentially abusive back.  Fortunately, I pulled myself up and out of the anger and abuse.  I am still married, though I feel completely insulated from my wife.  I have placed myself where she cannot reach me emotionally, intimately, intellectually, or spiritually.  This is not marriage as ordained by God. It's marriage by contract.

I remember a therapy visit I had a few years back, where I finally gave myself permission to say the word divorce. I thought about it after that point.  I felt hope and fervor like I hadn't ever before.  I saw light in my life that I didn't know was still there.  I allowed myself to imagine a pretend life in which I was happily loved, and in love.  I imagined a life, one day, that had a happy marriage, not an armed cease fire like the present.  I fantasize every so often about what it would feel like to look forward to coming home - for a reason other than a dog and kids that were happy to see me. (And thank goodness for that dog!)

I think you hoped to hear someone say, "been there and done that, and there's a solution."  But, I'm here to say "I'm there now, and I'm still working on a solution."  I do know that God wants us to be happy.  Unfortunately - at least as a Christian - we are trained to accept that sometimes happiness comes in the life after, even if not this one.  This doesn't help when brought along with vows with phrases like "in sickness and in health."  I'm pushing back against this concept currently.  I struggled with what to tell God for a long time.  But, I read something a while back that said, in essence, that divorce is necessary not for the selfish, but for the victims of the selfish.  Maybe we're in that category.

One of my dominant hobbies is distance running.  I know from experience that at some point, you simply can't run any further on that specific day.  There is no water, sports drink, energy food, pep-talk, walk-run pace, or motivation, that can make you run further when you get to that point.  Anything more is just damage, and risk of total failure, and even death.  In that case, and it's been years since I hit that, I have learned to say that I have "endured to the end" which is counsel from the scriptures.  

So, maybe in my marriage, if I get to point that I can't lift one more foot, I have exhausted all efforts.  Then I can say that I have endured to the end, and even in sickness and health done so.  Maybe God knows our suffering and pain, and places our personal finish lines closer than we thought, or closer than it looks to someone else.  Maybe He, in looking over us, knows when the lessons are learned, the race is run, and anymore effort is just damage to be done.  Only you and your Creator know.  

[BeagleGirl]

Samwise,
Thank you for your response.  While my heart aches to know the pain you are going through, it is a comfort to know that I'm not alone.  Along with the "running the race" scriptures are those that talk about a "great cloud of witnesses" who have already run the race, crossed the finish line and received the prize.  It's also a blessing to look just ahead, behind, and beside and see fellow runners.

It seems like a fitting season for me to be in this emotional and spiritual place.  I am being very honest with God that I feel like I'm in my own garden of Gethsemane but I can't seem to reach the ability to say "not my will but yours".  I'm also honest that death, even a painful one, seems like a cake walk compared to the countless years of living in a "marriage by contract" as you so aptly put it.  As beautiful as spring is, I struggle to see it as the symbol of hope that it should be.  Hope hurts.  Love hurts.  So, like you, I have become insulated in my hope-less and love-less cocoon.  I want to heal and grow and change so that I can some day reemerge into a world of hope and love, but to HOPE for that seems beyond me.  That's why I can't even seem to fantasize about being free and loved.

One of the things I'm also dealing with is the physical manifestation of that cocoon.  You wouldn't know by looking at me that I used to run half marathons (one of the reasons your analogies resonated with me).  I have put on so much weight that I literally carry the burden of my insulation on a daily basis.  I have to hope (there's that dangerous word again) that the disconnect I now feel when looking in the mirror between what I see and what I know I am is evidence that I am getting ready to shed the physical cocoon, even if I have to wait for the life after to fully stretch my wings and fly. 

Thanks again for sharing.  I'll add you to my prayer list.

[Portent]

I can say this. You are doing better right now than 90% of the people who go through this. You have a diagnosis and you have a spouse that is willing to get treatment. I didn't have that. Many here didn't' have that. We had spouses that refused to get diagnosed and or lied their asses off to avoid a diagnosis (my ex) or refused to accept the diagnosis and get treatment. The vast majority of pwBPD will never ever accept the diagnosis the pathology prevents it.

I know you are not going to understand this but a few months ago I would have traded anything just to be where you are right now. Just to have my spouse accept the problem and be willing to get treatment. And I get it. I couldn't do the walking on eggshells thing. That is no way to live. Maybe with treatment that wouldn't have been needed.

[KateCat]

BeagleGirl,

I get the feeling that you will be pulling up a chair and settling in for a good long stay on this forum. When you have logged enough posts to enable you to read the posting history of others (I think that's how it still works around here), I hope you can read the history of former member "Mount Si." He is or was a protestant minister and he shared here his years' long internal battle with the issue of his unhappy marriage. I think he speaks your values-language. And he might be a bit of a firecracker too, at times. 

[GaGrl]

I don't usually read and post here.

My DH was married (legally)  to his uNPD/UPD ex for over 30 years. We reconnected in 2005 after having known each other as teens in school and in our church youth group in the 1960s.

His ex was someone he met and married as a young serviceman in SE Asia in the 70s. He truly believed that once he brought her to the U.S. and settled her into a "good Christian marriage", all would be right.

Many years later, I asked how much of their struggles were cultural (Thai vs. American) and how much were her psychological/emotional problems, and he could quickly say 50-50.

My DH once considered the ministry. He believed marriage was a commitment for life, in sickness or in health.

We are PRotestant, so divorce may be frowned upon, but is allowed. As it stands now, even the Roman Catholic Tribunals that oversee annulments will consider mental illness as a factor in whether someone entered marriage in the context of a spiritual union ( or if one partner was incapable of doing so... )

All this to say... .the Fear-Obligation-Guilt is an enormous obstacle to work through, but many have done so.

Few are sitting in judgement. We've been down that road.

[Grey Kitty]

Viewing mental illness as sickness in the context of "in sickness and in health" is valid and commendable.

That said, does your vow to love, honor, and cherish hold you when he made a similar one, and has violated it repeatedly, and doesn't even seem to acknowledge his failings at it?

I mean you said something about

the realization that my relationship has been abusive for as long as I can remember, but the abuse has always been covert.

Still, it is YOUR vow, and only you can decide how long to live within it and how to do so.

[peacemountain]

BeagleGirl, I'm dealing with the same questions. I've turned them over and over again, asked God what is His will in all of this, and what His desire for me is in all of it. I haven't come to any solid conclusions yet.

Some things that have helped me process:
1. The realization that first and foremost I'm His cherished daughter. He loves me deeply and does not want me to be physically or emotionally destroyed.
2. Each of us are made in His image and at the core of who we are there is value and beauty. It is wrong for anyone to degrade, disrespect, distort, or even physically harm that.
3. On the other hand, we each have been given free will, to choose what we will say and do. How we will love or hurt and tear down others.
4. We also have a choice to stand up for truth and justice. We have a choice to protect ourselves and those around us from harm.

I'm not sure of where all of this lands me other than knowing that what is taking place in my home is not acceptable. It's my responsibility to request change for my sake, for his sake, for the health of our marriage and our children. If that request cannot be honored, I will need to make a decision that places me and my children in an emotionally safer environment until change happens.

My H refuses to seek therapy - individual or couples. He refuses to speak with our pastor or close friends about what is going on. He denies that there is a problem.

I'm studying what biblical confrontation would look like. First, me lovingly confronting him and asking for specific steps to bring about change. And, if he will not listen to that, asking two close friends and our pastor to sit and talk with him. Depending on how abusive the situation is, this may not be an option. I'm also studying christian based articles and books pertaining to abuse in marriage and a biblical response.

Have you found any good materials on this? Have you spoken with your pastor or a trusted friend?

[byfaith]

BeagleGirl,

I wanted to share this. From a Christian perspective this is a website that can help possibly answer some questions
www.divorcehope.com/peopleinamarriageinstitution.htm

It was just a piece of the puzzle for me. I hope it helps some.

BF

[BeagleGirl]

Thank you ByFaith.  I appreciate the link and the sentiment behind it.

I just got back from a nice long walk; a bit of self-care I have been neglecting.  While my mind is relatively quiet, I'm thinking about what I want to give my boys.  I want them to see marriage as a sacred institution, but I definitely also want them to know that the length of their marriage does not define its success.  I agree with the article that protecting an institution to the detriment of the members of the institution is wrong.  Leaving an ox in a ditch on the Sabbath to protect the sanctity of the Sabbath does NOTHING to honor God's intentions.

I'm coming to terms with the idea that I may not be able to give them an example of the kind of marriage that God intends and I want for them, because it takes two and I can only be responsible for my part in it.  With that assumption, what CAN I give them? 

What I want them to be able to say is "Mom never gave up on dad.  She honored who she was, even when he didn't.  She didn't condone or "put up with" his sin and hurtful behavior, but she somehow found the strength to love him through it all and found joy in a situation that many would have run from." 

Of course I would also like them to be able to say "I saw mom loved the way I want to love my wife.  I saw her blossom when her husband smiled at her.  I saw her find shelter and comfort in his arms when times were hard.  I saw him lovingly encourage her to grow and become more Christlike.  I saw him forgive and be forgiven with equal freedom."

And I sit here and sob - ugly cry - because I don't know if they'll be able to say any of that.

[KateCat]

Do your sons have a safe place to explore and express their feelings in the here and now?

I grew up in the dark ages of the 1950s, when almost everything was taboo and shrouded in silence, but I think my poor brother suffered a lot for being the only male child in a family where the father was emotionally hurtful to the mother. It wasn't until my brother was physically large enough to face his father down literally that there was an outward "sign" of what had probably long been a source of torment and conflict for him.

Your sons have each other, and they also have a strong mother. They may not be having the same experience my brother had. Still, a little "check up" wouldn't hurt. And, of course, validation. Livednlearned has some great threads on learning to validate her son's experiences and emotions during difficult times.

[Theo41]

Beaglegirl, I've been married to an undiagnosed BPD wife for decades. My religion does not keep me in the relationship. Her positive qualities, hope, fear of change and empathy are what keep me married to her. Also, I manage to have a very satisfying life despite her  negativity and frequent 2-5x a week  fits of abusive anger ( followed and or preceded by loving ideation).
What I didn't realize was the extremely negative impact this had on our children.
They hated the way she treated me and were afraid of her.
Both have been in therapy as adults because of growing up in a sick dysfunctional home.
They don't understand why I would have put up with this and have distanced themselves from us now.
I would suggest you get counsel from a minister in your church. I don't believe God wants us to suffer like you are in this life. You deserve to have some joy in life.
Equally important: protect the children. Find out how much they hurt from this enviornment. They too deserve to live a somewhat normal, not a dysfunctional life. Theo

[Lucky Jim]

Well said, Theo.  I admire your courage and honesty to discuss the impact of your marriage to a pwBPD on your children.  I think about that a lot, particularly now that I'm estranged from my children after a difficult divorce from my BPDxW.  She continues her abusive ways by preventing our children from having a r/s with me.  I had to fight my Ex in Court and with court-appointed therapists.  Nevertheless, I like to think that I showed my kids that change is possible, and one need not stay in an abusive situation.  Whether that message will sink in is unknown at this point (they are teenagers).

LuckyJim

[Grey Kitty]

What I want them to be able to say is "Mom never gave up on dad.  She honored who she was, even when he didn't.  She didn't condone or "put up with" his sin and hurtful behavior, but she somehow found the strength to love him through it all and found joy in a situation that many would have run from." 

I think this is the core your dilemma, right here.

For me, giving up on a relationship isn't quite the same as giving up on a person, or giving up on loving them. But there is still some form of giving up, and there isn't much getting around that.

And you don't seem to be able to live with him and at the same time, honor yourself.

If only there were a clear way to do both.

Of course I would also like them to be able to say "I saw mom loved the way I want to love my wife.  I saw her blossom when her husband smiled at her.  I saw her find shelter and comfort in his arms when times were hard.  I saw him lovingly encourage her to grow and become more Christlike.  I saw him forgive and be forgiven with equal freedom."

And I sit here and sob - ugly cry - because I don't know if they'll be able to say any of that.

It is pretty clear that you cannot expect your children to say that about their father's treatment of you.

[BeagleGirl]

Grey Kitty,
I think you summed my dilemma up very neatly.  I am not at the point where I feel like I can divorce him without compromising my self and I have not yet been able to live with him as his wife without feeling like I'm compromising myself. 

I don't know (and may not want to know) how much of my husband's treatment of me my kids are aware of.  I have always been very careful to keep heated discussions and arguments behind closed doors and deescalate/smooth over situations in their presence.  I am careful to not disparage my husband to them and to present a "united front" on parenting decisions (even when I'm cleaning up a "mess" he made of discipline).

I know my older son is more aware of his dad's behavior because he was "home schooled" by my husband for 5 years.  I put the term home schooled in quotes because my son completed an online curriculum while my husband did whatever he wanted - napped, started projects that never got completed, played on his iPhone, etc.  He was also home when my husband responded to my request to discuss a separation by packing his bags and pausing on his way out of the house to "apologize" to my son for being such a horrible father and tell him he prayed that God would be the father he needed.  We went through a period when my older son would make snide remarks about "dad spending mom's money".  I told him that wasn't acceptable because "it's not really your business, it's mine, and his dad supports the family in other ways". 

I know both of my boys have experienced the tension when my husband was "pouting", and walked on eggshells along with me when his anger was seething below the surface.  I know that his response to real or perceived failures by them has made me cringe and I have done what I could to temper his response without forgoing good discipline. 

Ultimately, one of the things that spurred my decision to leave was realizing that, even if my boys didn't know about the abuse that happened behind closed doors, I would be ashamed to have them grow up and mimic the behavior they DID see from him.

I'm still very hesitant to ask direct questions of my boys that might open up their ability to talk about what they see in their dad and in our relationship because I don't want to color their view of him.  My counselor suggested that I open a conversation with my younger son along the lines of "You know that it's not your job to make dad feel better or calm down when he's angry, right?" I'm very conflicted about that, because I feel like that is saying "Your dad is sad and angry and might ask you to do something you should do".  As I type this, I'm thinking "It's true, but I don't want my son to know it."

Any thoughts on what is appropriate to communicate to a 18 and/or 13 year old son about their dad's BPD behavior?  I worry more about my 13 year old because he is home with his dad alone at least 1/2 time right now.

[Fie]

What I want them to be able to say is "Mom never gave up on dad.  She honored who she was, even when he didn't.  She didn't condone or "put up with" his sin and hurtful behavior, but she somehow found the strength to love him through it all and found joy in a situation that many would have run from."  

Of course I would also like them to be able to say "I saw mom loved the way I want to love my wife.  I saw her blossom when her husband smiled at her.  I saw her find shelter and comfort in his arms when times were hard.  I saw him lovingly encourage her to grow and become more Christlike.  I saw him forgive and be forgiven with equal freedom."

And I sit here and sob - ugly cry - because I don't know if they'll be able to say any of that.

I understand what you mean and I empathize. However, is it possible that you are overseeing something ? I think the most important thing you can give your children, is your love for THEM. How is your relationship with them ? Do you show them that you love them ? How about spending some time together, doing stuff you like together ? When I think about my daughter and the way she will see me as a grown up (she's 8 now), there's only one thing I really hope for : I want her to always know that I love her.

My relationship with her dad failed, and I have felt a lot of guilt because of that. Now those days are behind me. My relationship was bad. And one way or the other, the kids *always* suffer from a bad relationship between their parents. My daughters dad and me separated when she was 2. She remembers her father screaming at me and me doing nothing, just sitting in the sofa and undergoing his rage (and I never told her that, so it's a real memory). She knows and remembers a lot more than I thought.
During the years my guilt faded away and my view on everything has altered immensely. I now feel that my child can only be happy if I am happy. My relationship was toxic, and I got her out - as I should have.


Also, your post caught my attention because of the title. BPD is not an illness. It's a character disorder. This means that people with BPD are entirely free to alter their behavior. It's hard but possible - if one wants to.

[BeagleGirl]

Thank you for that last insight about the difference between an illness and a personality disorder,  Fie.  It lines up with what my counselor talked with me about yesterday.  Nice when those messages are reinforced from multiple directions.

I have to say that being a good and loving mother is one thing I have very little question of.  My boys are the recipients of the very best of me.  I know that they look forward to hanging out with me and can be more themselves with me than anyone else (for now).  I am firm but fun, communicate my love for them physically and verbally on a daily basis, and work to come up with as many different ways to connect with them and affirm their strengths and help them address their struggles as I can.  It may sound like bragging, but it was the first core truth about myself that came back after my separation.  It's something that my closest friends and the "grandparents" we have adopted in our church affirm on a regular basis.  I am blessed with amazing boys, but I will take some credit for contributing to that. 

That said, I do fear that I may be doing them a disservice in how I model marriage and not being more transparent about what is going on.  I DON'T want to add burden to them by oversharing, but I also don't want them to carry the burden of not being able to talk about what they see and feel. 

When the separation occurred, I let them know who I was going to tell about the separation (the parents of one of S13's best friends, whose mom is one of my best friends and accountability partner and our pastor).  I let them know that I wanted them to be able to decide whether their friends and/or teachers knew and that if they didn't feel comfortable telling someone but wanted them to know, I would take care of telling that person.  I let them know that our pastor might check in on them periodically (he asked if he could and I was happy to give my blessing) and that I would be providing opportunities to talk about any questions or concerns they had.  I have done so verbally on a regular basis (Just asking "Is there anything you want to know or talk about in regards to this separation?" and have started a shared journal with my S13 where either of us can write anything we want the other to know or questions we have.  So far there has been the typical(?) teenage response of "No need to talk about anything".  The journal has been a good place for me to put into writing the love I have for my S13, and I've reiterated my requested behavior when he is in a "funk" and thanked/affirmed him when I see him putting those things into action.

Other than the suggestion to express to my S13 that he's not responsible for his dad's feelings or behavior, I haven't gotten any guidance from my counselor or pastor, but I'm wondering if those of you who have first hand experience see any gaps/opportunities in what I am doing with my boys.

[formflier]

I've done a couple rounds of family T and my current efforts  center on protecting my kids from as much crazyness as I can.

Big picture:  Instead of cluing them in about your world... .focus on theirs.  Listen to how they are interpreting it... .you WILL hear knowledge gaps (things they don't understand).  Don't correct those in the same conversation.

Perhaps reflect the question or thought back to them to make sure you have it right... .

It's very important for them to express their world... without correction.

That also gives you time to think about a healthy response, think about boundaries, think about what the need to know.  Perhaps even run it by a T first.

Then... create another conversation and fill in the knowledge gap, almost in on "oh by the way" fashion.  Don't "squeeze out" the old knowledge, just put some new in their and let them process.

Go back to being in their world.

Big picture:  Let them be kids.  You are NOT in charge of their r/s with their Dad.  Focus on your r/s with them and give plenty of opportunities to have relationships outside the family where "issues" don't exist.  Where they can be them.

Thoughts?

FF

[BeagleGirl]

Formflier,

That advice really helps.  Thank you. 

[Grey Kitty]

That said, I do fear that I may be doing them a disservice in how I model marriage and not being more transparent about what is going on.  I DON'T want to add burden to them by oversharing, but I also don't want them to carry the burden of not being able to talk about what they see and feel. 

Regarding your children, I've got two thoughts:

First, there is a real challenge regarding what to share in a way that is appropriate both for their ages and their relationship (your child). I suspect you will have to work hard to do this right in many different ways and many different rounds, but I also suspect you have the general right idea.

Second, you seem to hope that they aren't noticing how poorly your H is treating you and has been treating you, and thus not taking that as a model of what a marriage is supposed to look like.

And it doesn't go that way--children do notice exactly what is going on. They probably do not understand it at an adult level, but they completely know what is gong on, and completely know all the family's unwritten rules. They have spent their entire life swimming in the emotional undercurrents of your household, and they are part of the system.

When they start having relationships, they will end up doing the best they can at one of four things--behaving like you do in this r/s, behaving like your H does in this r/s, trying to do the opposite of what you do [Sounds unlikely in your case], or trying to do the opposite of what your H does. And chances are none of these will work all that well without significant adjustments.

[formflier]

This is an area where a good T can help you.  Grey's comments about emotional undercurrents and assumptions is right on point.

My T (a very experienced PhD level Psychologist) spent a long time asking me how my kids react when my wife "goes off" and I try to control her... .or convince her she shouldn't involve the kids.

The kids really weren't taking sides, they were taking the path of least resistance and really didn't want to deal with the mess being presented to them.

Also... .my kids are obedient to me, my wife is not.  

So... .the goal was not to "win" with my wife but to protect them from as much dysfunction as possible.  Secondary goal is to deprive my wife of an audience.  There is some need of hers that gets fulfilled by explaining how horribly she is being treated to others.  Many times those others are our kids... .

Anyway... .the T suggested the strategy I now use.  If my wife won't honor the "rule" to keep adult things private... .I stop dealing with her and start dealing with kids.  

"Kid's go to your rooms and shut the door."  Sometimes I will add "Mommy and I have private things to discuss"

First time I did it, a kid started crying, my wife started hollering louder but eventually everyone got to their rooms.  My wife was trying to shame my by hollering loudly "Look what you are doing to the kids... "

Well... .a couple more times and it now works like clockwork.  I can see relief on the kids faces as they hustle to their rooms.

Last few times my wife has sighed and eyerolled... .but she knows that she has been outmaneuvered... .

The discussion has now changed (the few times it is discussed) from what is appropriate for my wife to say... .to what is appropriate for my kids to hear.

No more deals with my wife about what she will or won't say... .

No more arguments about appropriateness of what she says... .she can say whatever she wants.

My focus is on clearing out the audience.

I've gone through several iterations of what to do about public outbursts.  Likely you will go through several strategies before you get to a better place about what YOU model for your kids.  Let your hubby worry about what he models.

FF

[Fie]

BeagleGirl,

I think you got some really good advice here, and also I think you are handling pretty great.
You want to know what's best for your kids, and act appropriately. That's wonderful, more parents should be like that.
Watch out please for one trap though : don't project too much on your kids. Sometimes the things we are going through are so huge for us, that we think it has the exact same impact on them as on ourselves. Or we attach so much value onto something, that we automatically assume someone else does the same - which is not always so.

F.e. You have a value of putting a very high emphasis on marriage.  This is not necessarily something that has the exact same value for your kids, though. Maybe they value more being in peace, than their parents being together at all cost. Or maybe for your kids their friends are very important. Or some sport. Maybe they value honesty. Maybe they value independence. Everyone is different.

You told your children they could choose who they talk to about the divorce. I do not think that's necessarily a bad thing, but you might want to watch out for shaming them (giving them the hidden message that divorce is something bad, something you should be ashamed about). Divorce is not something you should be ashamed about - but I have the impression that you do feel shame. Please be careful you don't project this on your children.

And please do not forget that your divorce is only one aspect of their lives. They have school, friends, hobbies, and they have a mum and a dad. It is not always necessarily a bad thing when parents break up. It's the way they do it.

Do not forget to give yourself a break. When I separated from the dad of my daughter, I literately felt a bad mum for doing so. I talked things through with my kid (she was only 2 but still I thought it was important to talk - in an age appropriate manner), we read books about children who went through the same thing as her, etc.
I would do those things again if I were in the same situation now. I would however put less stress in it all. I would approach it with a gentler outlook towards myself - less judging. I think I somehow, feeling all of this guilt, blew things a bit out of proportion. By that I think I put more stress on my child, who felt my burden maybe as hers. If I could do it again, I wish I could give her the subliminal message of 'it's a pity we have to break up, yes, but we will survive this, it's not that bad, and it's actually for the best.'

Ps I don't know if it could be of any comfort for you, knowing this, but my little girl is a superhappy wonderful little human being now. (she's 8)  Her dad married some years ago, and she has a baby little brother now (her dad's side) that she adores.