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Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse... Have you considered that being critical, judgmental, or invalidating toward the other parent, no matter what she or he just did will only make matters worse? Someone has to be do something. This means finding the motivation to stop making things worse, learning how to interrupt your own negative responses, body language, facial expressions, voice tone, and learning how to inhibit your urges to do things that you later realize are contributing to the tensions.
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Author Topic: How to talk when they refuse to talk  (Read 867 times)
EasternToad

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« on: April 13, 2017, 06:40:07 PM »

Question for y'all-
My H and I are finally moving in together next month.  We've been married a year, but living separately because of my concerns about my SD18's uBPD behavior.  I grew up with BPDs and had BPDex's.  I find it too difficult to manage BPD in my own house anymore.  It gives me PTSD willies.
Anyway, SD18 recently announced she isn't going to university next year after all.  She's moving into our new (small) house with us.  
H and I have discussed it, and agreed we all need to talk about what that would look like, BEFORE we agree that she can move in with us.  I have said to H that I reluctantly won't agree to her moving in, unless we can all agree on some ground rules.  This has been painful for me, but I realize I have to be realistic about what behavior I can handle at home.
The trouble is, SD18 doesn't yet know there are conditions on her move-in.  Today dear H bravely took the first step and told SD18 we all need to talk before she moves in.  
She refused.  Twice.  She said she will not talk to us about anything until she finishes an important event at high school.  That's in two weeks.  We move in 4 weeks.
So she has set a boundary.  And we have set a boundary.  We seem to have a case of duelling boundaries.  It would almost be funny, if only it wasn't.
If we wait, I don't think the remaining 2 weeks will be long enough to have the evolving conversation we need on this one.  :)o we insist on talking sooner, or honour her request/demand?  I'm tempted to accept her terms, but I feel uneasy about it.
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« Reply #1 on: April 14, 2017, 04:21:52 PM »

Is the important event a big test or paper or something graded? If so, the request of not adding extra stress to her plate, especially if she is someone who already has a hard time handling stress, is a pretty reasonable one. If it's something that is only socially important then it may be more about avoidance.

Also, I don't know how much talking will help. Even if she was a pretty stable teenager it's would mostly go in one ear and out the other. Being a little more unstable I suspect you will be largely misheard. A child is never too old to be given a copy of negotiated rules in writing. Expectations need to be very clear.

Have you and DH discussed consequences and follow through? Not just what you would like or expect to see if boundaries are tested, but the actual logistic of the situation. What is the plan for worst case scenario if this arrangement turns out to be unmanageable?
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bravhart1
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« Reply #2 on: April 15, 2017, 01:57:55 AM »

Well I'm not too sure starting out letting the pwBPD set the tone is a great start.

What if you just said no? That she needs to live elsewhere? She may need to figure out alternative housing, maybe you can help pay for rent to make it manageable.

My biggest fear going forward with my SD is that her teen years will be too difficult for us to endure. At eight she's already a pretty big load.

How has your relationship been with her so far?
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EasternToad

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« Reply #3 on: April 15, 2017, 06:00:25 AM »

Is the important event a big test or paper or something graded? ... .  If it's something that is only socially important then it may be more about avoidance.

It's an extracurricular thing that is very, very important to her.  I do want to support her success.  All the same, I think her demand for silence prior to the event IS about avoidance and power.  I take your point.
All the same, again, I'm not sure it's the battle I want to fight.  I suspect she will be very, very angry if we start the discussion now, and less receptive as a result.   Sigh. I find it hard to know which battles are worthy and which aren't.  :)o any of you have any insight on that?  A rule?  An acronym?   Smiling (click to insert in post)

A child is never too old to be given a copy of negotiated rules in writing. Expectations need to be very clear.

Have you and DH discussed consequences and follow through? Not just what you would like or expect to see if boundaries are tested, but the actual logistic of the situation. What is the plan for worst case scenario if this arrangement turns out to be unmanageable?

Thank you for these great ideas.  Your realism hits home.  I'll be bringing those ideas into my talks with DH about this.
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EasternToad

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« Reply #4 on: April 15, 2017, 06:15:41 AM »

Well I'm not too sure starting out letting the pwBPD set the tone is a great start.

What if you just said no? That she needs to live elsewhere? She may need to figure out alternative housing, maybe you can help pay for rent to make it manageable.

How has your relationship been with her so far?

Oh.  More good points.  Oh. 

We have had a rocky, uneasy relationship to date.  I was originally embraced and adored, but became disliked.  The usual BPD splitting stuff, I understand.  She has told my own kids, her mum and her dad that she and I 'hate each other.'  She has yelled and screamed at me.  There's a lot of scowling and eye-rolling and storming out of the room.

I don't like any of this behaviour, but I also really enjoy the happier side of her personality.  She's vibrant, creative and thoughtful, when things are good in her world.  I try to hold on to both of those realities. 

As to whether to just say 'No, you can't live here'... .  I have considered this.  My thoughts -- I am afraid that saying No without a conversation would be very hurtful and invalidating for this wounded SD18 kid.  After all, we aren't saying No to my D15.  We bought the house because it had enough room for D15, H and I, plus the other 3 grown kids on holidays.  (It's got 2 regular bedrooms, one small bedroom, and a large basement rec room.)  Now SD18's plans have changed, I feel like she deserves at least the process of considering her as a member of the household. 

And then I step back and realize that her behavior toward us has been completely different than D15's behavior.  As you say, it would be reasonable to tell her that, and politely and lovingly support her in a different way. 

Hmmm.  This isn't easy.  It's very helpful to have all your insight.  Thank you. 
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livednlearned
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« Reply #5 on: April 15, 2017, 01:20:33 PM »

It's fine if she is too busy to talk.

It's also fine to let her move in only after she has found it important enough to make time to talk.

Setting aside the details, this is about her setting the terms of the terms you are trying to set  Smiling (click to insert in post)

She is the child, and you are the adult. If she wants to be given the privilege of setting the terms of negotation, she has to accept the responsibilities, too. And that means any consequences to the various ways she will stonewall and obstruct.

My two cents is that it's best to start off with strong boundaries, right out of the gate, even if they are uncomfortable or seem inconvenient.

She already doesn't respect you, sounds like. So you won't lose her respect.

With my SO's D20, after I set strong boundaries, I started to get cards saying, "I think of you like a mother," and texts "love you" texts. She has a blog where she refers to me as her other mom, and I get the mature version of what she is capable when she's with me. That only happened when I started to openly assert boundaries. Having some BPD communication skills also helped.

I say to let your D18 make whatever decision she wants, and to also experience the consequences of those decisions. Not out of spite, out of love.

We do them no favors by removing boundaries -- those are the only things that will help them learn where the edges are, and the only way to learn consequences for their behavior.

Also, I know this is big talk. There are other ways to approach it. Maybe you tell her that right now is the period of time where you will negotiate the rules. If she wishes to be involved, then call to talk. Otherwise, you and H will draw up the terms and she will be expected to abide by them.
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« Reply #6 on: April 15, 2017, 01:48:30 PM »

I agree with lnl... .it's your house, so your House Rules. With those in place, strong boundaries will still be needed as the rules are tested.

So what House Rules would apply to ALL members of the household, things that simply make for a peaceful and well-run household? Clean up what you mess up, speak respectfully to each other, call or text when expecting to be later than anticipated, etc.

I don't really get "negotiating" your House Rules with a teen. Are you talking about what time she is or is not expected to be home at night/whether she comes home at all? Whether she pays rent?

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"...what's past is prologue; what to come,
In yours and my discharge."
EasternToad

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« Reply #7 on: April 16, 2017, 07:29:16 AM »

Have you and DH discussed consequences and follow through? Not just what you would like or expect to see if boundaries are tested, but the actual logistic of the situation. What is the plan for worst case scenario if this arrangement turns out to be unmanageable?

DH and I started talking more  about the actual logistics of our worst-case scenario last night.  (Thank you for raising the question.)  Within a few minutes we were talking about the most likely scenario:  We move in together.  It starts well, and then inevitably SD18 acts out.  I declare her behavior an intolerable breach of our agreement.  :)H says no, it's not so bad, let's give it another chance... .And THEN where are we?  All living together and resenting each other even more.  :)H feeling truly stuck in the middle.  Me feeling trapped in my own house.  SD18 angry.  OR: me kicking them both to the curb.  Major drama.

Which brought me to a new point.  Back it up.  We might as well deal with this now, rather than later.  I told DH I had changed my mind.  My position was firmer and clearer.  I didn't want to SD18 to move in with us at all.

We talked and talked.  (The benefit of SD18 saying SHE doesn't want to talk about it for 2 weeks, is that DH and I are talking more about it.   Smiling (click to insert in post))

We got to a point where we agreed that the time for consequences is now, not after we move in together.  :)H acknowledged that, like me, he doesn't want to keep walking on eggshells around his daughter anymore.  We both agreed that we haven't done a good job setting limits with any of our kids, and we were going to have to.  

We are both frightened of how this plays out.  :)H is worried that SD18 will feel deeply rejected.  She rejected her own mum a few year ago, to move in full time with DH.  That relationship is slowly repairing, but what if it fails again?  Will she end up homeless?  Will she be suicidal?  

And what will others think of us?  From the outside, this looks harsh.  I am not so concerned about that, but DH feels it more.  It's his daughter.

Watching his agony is hard.
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livednlearned
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« Reply #8 on: April 16, 2017, 09:00:53 AM »

I admire you for having the courage to say that to your H.

That was probably a tough conversation.

Excerpt
We are both frightened of how this plays out.  DH is worried that SD18 will feel deeply rejected.  She rejected her own mum a few year ago, to move in full time with DH.  That relationship is slowly repairing, but what if it fails again?  Will she end up homeless?  Will she be suicidal? 

I can see why you would be feeling frightened about these scenarios.

Is there a middle way, where DH helps her get established on her own?

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bravhart1
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« Reply #9 on: April 17, 2017, 10:52:42 AM »

I understand the compassion you feel for your SD. As a step parent of a little girl who is highly likely to be Borderline (already exhibits many of the traits) I will just add my two cents, please hear what I have to say with love, I'm in it and it's harder than I ever imagined.

You are much more understanding at this time than I am. But I have been living with my extremely difficult SD for four years now and let me tell you, it's not easy.
My life is nothing like it was. I'm a very strong, confident and educated person, but pwBPD are relentless. I'm worn down, my health has suffered. My marriage has been back burnered ( resurrection date tbd) and my relationship with my own children has suffered too. I can't have anything ( personal items, makeup, jewelry) without her getting into it, wrecking it, stealing it. She rearranges stuff when I'm gone, trying to take over control of MY house, she irritates and annoys my animals, my children and nothing is off limits. We all have come to lock our personal bedrooms in our own house for safety of our things. This little girl has managed to subtlety control all of us and it's not easy to change that. We try, she amps up the drama, we get worn down... .etc.

What I'm trying to say is that while I feel for your SD and her issues, As someone who's been there, who's in it, How much ARE you willing to sacrifice for her? And how will it feel to make these huge sacrifices only to have her care less?

I'm living with an 8 yr old and it's incredibly hard and mostly unrewarding. I fear for her teen age years.

It's pretty significant that you and your DH have not even moved in together and have put your marriage on hold for her. What do you think living with her will do?

It's very sad she has BPD. Her life is going to be difficult because of it. How difficult are you willing for your life to become?

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« Reply #10 on: April 17, 2017, 05:50:22 PM »

I think L&L brought up an good point that although having SD live with you might not work, being prepared to help her stand herself up as an adult is something pretty basic for any parent with children leaving the nest. Granted, this is a little bit of a different situation since she'll still be in high school next year. Full time? Just doing one class? Has she ever had a job before?

The bigger concern is if she isn't going to live with you and DH then where will she live? Back at her mom's? Get roommates? Any idea what she wants to be when she grows up? Does she appear to have any plans for herself, or did she maybe mess up her senior year of high school a little bit on purpose because she's terrified of trying to figure out what comes next?

To sort of soften what Bravhart said, while still remaining grounded in realism, I don't think living with her for one year is the biggest problem. Anyone can live with pretty much anything for a year. Might have a few more gray hairs by the end of it, and might even develop some war-time-like PTSD, but one year is one year. (Bravhart is looking down the barrel of another mandatory 10 years, minimum. And all this after she fought tooth and nail to try and save this kid from a BPD mom in the first place.) The bigger picture is that your DH has a daughter who is going to have very serious challenges probably for the rest of her life. She'll have huge fights with anyone she lives with that will magically be all everyone's fault but hers (yours and DH's, or her mother's, or her roommate's, or her significant other's). BPD is a disorder that primarily impacts the sufferer's close relationships. Lower-functioning BPD's have a hard time holding down jobs.

A father who is willing to tough it out and stand by his kid no matter what is an amazing and beautiful man deserving of much praise. But unless your DH can see himself setting some really firm boundaries with SD, and sticking with them, you are in for a bumpy road. No matter what there is going to need to be lots of communication and revisiting of the same topics over again. The best thing you can do is just be open and honest with your DH about your concerns, but maintain your level of compassion for both him and SD as best you can.
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EasternToad

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« Reply #11 on: May 07, 2017, 08:43:00 PM »

Finally, an update! -- We had 'the conversation' with SD about moving in together, last Monday.  It was more of a speech than a conversation.  At first she declined to come and talk to us, when asked.  Her father insisted, so she came in an hovered in a corner of the room as we each spoke our piece.  The benefit of her refusal to engage for 2 weeks was that we had a well scripted message to deliver.  We started with making the conversation as safe as possible, emphasizing how we supported her choice to do one more year of high school.  We spent time talking about what we admired in her.  I found myself in tears as I spoke about the things she has done that have been thoughtful and sweet. 
And then we described the challenge that her (sudden) choice to stay in high school has brought.  We are faced with blending our family at a rapid pace.  We are faced with blending despite some significant tensions and barriers.  We are concerned that this is going to be difficult.  We all need to choose to enter this process in good faith and willingness.  Our game plan is to get a counsellor involved and have lots of good conversation.  We aren't willing to have her live with us otherwise. 
SD's response was better than I expected.  She moved from sullen scowling initially, to crying silent tears in the end.  No rampage.  That's good, I think?
"Move toward us," we said.  "Join us in this."
We got no words in answer.  No shared thoughts or impressions.  DH had written down his thoughts to make sure he got out all he wanted to say.   SD asked if she could have DH's papers, and then she left the room. 
Which left us wondering where things stood.  LOL.  Funny how hard it is to get any kind of upper hand in this relationship.
DH and I began talking a few days later about next steps.  When would we insist on some kind of response?  Does she want to move in with us on our terms, or not?
Today she told him that she is thinking about living full time with her mom.  She hasn't decided, but she's thinking about it.
One way or another, we move from two apartments to one house, in 12 days. 
This is murky and messy, as always, but at least I feel like I have sorted out my own wishes, and stated my needs, in a respectful way.  And I've been able to stay consistent with my message.  Thank you all for helping me with that.
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EasternToad

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« Reply #12 on: May 07, 2017, 08:56:41 PM »

... .this is a little bit of a different situation since she'll still be in high school next year. Full time? Just doing one class? Has she ever had a job before?

The bigger concern is if she isn't going to live with you and DH then where will she live? Back at her mom's? Get roommates? Any idea what she wants to be when she grows up? Does she appear to have any plans for herself, or did she maybe mess up her senior year of high school a little bit on purpose because she's terrified of trying to figure out what comes next?

... .The best thing you can do is just be open and honest with your DH about your concerns, but maintain your level of compassion for both him and SD as best you can.

What sensible, helpful and thoughtful comments.  Thanks! 

IN answer to your questions -- SD18 has been working part time over the year, and has a summer job lined up.  She plans to take one or two courses next year, only.  A year ago she did have a clear career mapped out, but that changed over this last year.  It's been a year of changes for her: friends, college plans, sexual orientation -- all adrift.  I actually think that's a good thing.  Her original path was a little too precise and didn't match what she seems to enjoy.  I am hoping this year helps her in many ways. 
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livednlearned
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« Reply #13 on: May 08, 2017, 12:24:02 PM »

What a thoughtful and kind way you presented a reasonable boundary to SD18.

If she is like SO's D19, she probably felt rejected and abandoned somewhere after the third word 

There is not much we can do about those feelings when a boundary is being (and must be) set. I think the best we can do is to be thoughtful and kind and firm.

One way or another, we move from two apartments to one house, in 12 days. 

Good luck with the move  Smiling (click to insert in post)

I really think -- actually I know   -- you did the right thing.

It's possible that SD18 will test the boundary in some way.

We'll be here for you if it is.

And even if it's not. 

LnL

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EasternToad

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« Reply #14 on: May 22, 2017, 11:59:56 AM »

We moved! 
Four days before the move, uBPD SD18 told us that she was going to go and live full-time with her mom.  DH says he feels both sad and relieved.  I feel both hurt and relieved.  The mixed feelings are so funny. 
DH and I have had the weekend to unpack alone, while D15 is off at a youth conference, and SD18 is setting up her new space with her mom.  She hasn't lived with her mom at all for 3 years, so it's going to be an interesting transition for everyone. 
Thanks again for all your insight.  It helped to have you all sharing your wisdom and experience. 
Now we start again, moving forward with new boundaries and new intentions.

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