Home page of BPDFamily.com, online relationship supportMember registration here
March 29, 2024, 08:52:54 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Board Admins: Kells76, Once Removed, Turkish
Senior Ambassadors: Cat Familiar, EyesUp, SinisterComplex
  Help!   Boards   Please Donate Login to Post New?--Click here to register  
bing
How to communicate after a contentious divorce... Following a contentious divorce and custody battle, there are often high emotion and tensions between the parents. Research shows that constant and chronic conflict between the parents negatively impacts the children. The children sense their parents anxiety in their voice, their body language and their parents behavior. Here are some suggestions from Dean Stacer on how to avoid conflict.
84
Pages: [1]   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: After an affair - non-BPD was unfaithful to BPD spouse  (Read 747 times)
BeagleGirl
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: Divorced
Posts: 570



« on: April 17, 2017, 08:36:20 AM »

This thread is for any who are dealing with the aftermath of an affair they had while married to a BPD.  I think this situation has some unique aspects that may be helpful to discuss, so I'll start the discussion and welcome any who want to join.

My "stats":
Wife of BPD husband (diagnosed this month but active all through our relationship) for 21.5 years. 
3 years post affair and revelation to husband
Emotional affair lasted ~6 months and physical affair 6 weeks
Currently separated from husband for past 2.5 months
Affair aftermath: relationship - nothing overtly impacting relationship right now, though therapist thinks there is a deep well of untapped anger in husband
Affair aftermath: personal - still dealing with the idea that I may never be cared for by my BPD husband the way I was cared for by my affair partner.  At least I've moved on from wanting to be cared for by my affair partner.  Smiling (click to insert in post)

BeagleGirl
Logged
Grey Kitty
********
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: Separated
Posts: 7182



« Reply #1 on: April 17, 2017, 09:06:11 AM »

What's the story on your 2.5 month separation? Did you initiate it? Did your H? Is it a therapeutic separation managed by a counselor?

Affair aftermath: personal - still dealing with the idea that I may never be cared for by my BPD husband the way I was cared for by my affair partner.  At least I've moved on from wanting to be cared for by my affair partner.  Smiling (click to insert in post)

I understand your realization that your H will likely never care for you that way.

When you say you no longer want to be cared for by your affair partner, I'm curious what you mean?

Did you realize that he wasn't the person you wanted / he presented himself to be?

Did you realize that you don't want that outside your marriage?

Did you give up on wanting it?
Logged
formflier
Retired Staff
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Relationship status: Married
Posts: 19076



WWW
« Reply #2 on: April 17, 2017, 09:19:25 AM »


I would add two other thoughts or "lines of thinking" to this discussion.

1.  How you forgive yourself and "deal with" yourself for the affair.  100% controlled by you.

2.  How you communicate to your husband and ask him for forgiveness for the affair.  You get a vote/input into this, but largely this is controlled by your husband.


3 years is a lot of "water under the bridge" since the revelation.

I'm going to venture a guess here and say that there are times when he seems appropriately forgiving and other times when he "weaponizes" the affair for his purposes.

He likely also (like many pwBPD) will reach way back into the past and bring up a seemingly unrelated issued... .into a current discussion... .and act as if the hurt/issue happened yesterday.

How close am I?

The question I am most interested in.  Issue 1.  What have you done in 3 years to forgive yourself?

Have you forgiven yourself?


FF
Logged

BeagleGirl
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: Divorced
Posts: 570



« Reply #3 on: April 17, 2017, 04:49:05 PM »

GreyKitty,

I initiated this separation, unrelated to any of the affair aftermath.  I started asking for (begging for) a separation after my husband's irresponsibility put our S18 at risk for not graduating and domino fall out destroyed what little trust I had that he was willing (able?) to act as a husband to me.  I allowed him to talk me out of the separation after the initial crisis and through 5-6 additional crises severe enough to make separation seem like the only option.  I kept hoping that he would agree to the separation and be a willing partner in making it therapeutic rather than punitive (he saw it as a punishment and step inevitably leading to divorce). 
I entered into it as a therapeutic separation, but don't see restoration as an absolutely definite outcome and don't have a specific time frame (though we told our kids 6 months).  How it's being directed is "complicated".  Husband and I each see a Christian counselor who has done couple and individual counseling for us since 1 year post affair (we saw a different Christian counselor for 9 months immediately after the affair).  While not directing, per se, she is providing ongoing guidance, most specifically to me.  My husband is also seeing our pastor on a regular basis.  I don't have the same level of trust in our pastor's training and understanding of the situation, so I am only meeting with him when requested and am much more guarded in what I share and how I handle the guidance given.

When I said I no longer want the care from my affair partner, I think it was closest to saying that I do not want to receive it from him because it is not something he has the right to give due to his marriage, nor is it something I have the right to receive, due to my marriage.  While I believe I have more perspective on how wrong it was for him to offer me what he did, I have never really experienced anger towards him.  I guess I see too much of my own weaknesses and sin in him to not hold out forgiveness.  Whether he would have eventually hurt me just as deeply as my husband has is more of a philosophical question than something I need to answer to keep me from going back to him now. 
Don't get me wrong, I still struggle with the temptation to remember the "good times" we had and go down the road of "what might have been".  I have a good friend who was betrayed by her husband and is one of my accountability partners.  I've shared that struggle with her.  She has helped me to take that longing and see it as a longing, not for my affair partner specifically, but a God given desire to be loved as God intended me to be.  At this time, I don't know if that longing will ever be satisfied by anyone but God, so I try to short circuit the fantasies about my affair partner or any other man and say "God, you put this desire in me.  Help me to trust you to satisfy it."  I'll let you know when it works consistently.  Smiling (click to insert in post)

Formflier,

Ah, forgiveness.  I definitely have learned that forgiveness is a continual process, especially when it comes to forgiving myself.  For years I felt like I had the Scarlet Letter emblazoned on my heart and mind.  Not everyone could see it, but it was always visible to me.  There are still some days when I fall back into that thinking.  I don't know exactly when it happened, but this spring I have been able to see that the A for Adulteress has been transformed into F for Forgiven.  My thoughts on how the transformation took place:

1.  Being forgiven by surrogate sufferers:  When I decided to confess, I called on people to support my husband through the process.  Among those people were three couples where the women had been betrayed by their husbands.  I knew what their suffering had been and still was over acts that I now had in common with their betrayer.  Confessing to them was both the most difficult and their forgiveness was the most precious.  They knew the kind of pain I had caused and could still forgive me.  That is still a precious gift.

2.  Complete honesty:  You can't experience forgiveness for things you haven't confessed.  At the advice of my accountability team, I took the position of revealing to and asking forgiveness for detail level sins only when requested by him.  In other words, he had control of how much detail he wanted about what I had done and I would ask forgiveness of him specifically on those details.  That didn't free me from full confession.  I regularly prayed "God, show me the ugliness of my sin.  Reveal to me the sins I'm still holding onto.  Create in me a clean heart and renew a steadfast spirit in me".  I usually also involved my accountability partners as additional areas of sin were uncovered.  They remain the physical reminders of the forgiveness that God was granting me.
A "no justification" policy has also been invaluable.  No matter what others are willing to justify in my actions, you can't be forgiven for something you feel was justified.  Just last week I had to stop justifying an action (holding on to a momento that I discovered a year after the end of my affair) that was standing in the way of being forgiven.  In and of itself, it seemed small, but there was an invisible string tying it to all of the other aspects of my forgiveness. 

3.  Faith:  I was told early on that forgiveness won't always be felt, but that doesn't make it any less real.  There are days when I have to just have faith that I'm forgiven.  It's like direct deposit - I don't actually see the piles of money my employer is supposedly depositing every 2 weeks, but I know that I've done the work to earn it and when I've needed it, it's been there.  I don't spend my life in the bank vault making sure the money arrives and doesn't suddenly disappear.  I can't spend my life doubting the existence of the forgiveness I have been promised.

4.  Living as if I've been forgiven:  Three days after I confessed to my husband and met, in a totally broken and humble state, with a couple who had been married 52 years the husband - an old German man who actually served in the Hitler youth - came up to me and said "It's time to brush your hair".  I will never forget those words.  I immediately understood that he meant that it was time to stop my mourning and live as the beautiful, forgiven bride of Christ that I was.  I'm still working on that.  What has been easier is to offer forgiveness as one who has been forgiven.  Both bring beauty and joy to the world and delight God.  If I choose not to accept the forgiveness that's been offered, or hoard it, I deprive God and others of the beauty of a forgiven woman who shines that forgiveness on others.

There's probably a lot more I could say, and I may later.  For now, I'm going to take S13 and my three beagles for a walk and enjoy Spring as one who has been forgiven much.
Logged
Grey Kitty
********
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: Separated
Posts: 7182



« Reply #4 on: April 17, 2017, 06:04:59 PM »

I initiated this separation, unrelated to any of the affair aftermath.  I started asking for (begging for) a separation after my husband's irresponsibility put our S18 at risk for not graduating and domino fall out destroyed what little trust I had that he was willing (able?) to act as a husband to me. [... .] (he saw it as a punishment and step inevitably leading to divorce)

Hmmm... .If you separated because of his behavior... .and he sees it as punishment, i.e. doesn't see that he was behaving in a way which he has to change to save the marriage, that doesn't bode well for reconciliation on terms different than when you left.

Excerpt
At this time, I don't know if that longing will ever be satisfied by anyone but God, so I try to short circuit the fantasies about my affair partner or any other man and say "God, you put this desire in me.  Help me to trust you to satisfy it."  I'll let you know when it works consistently.  Smiling (click to insert in post)

I think that is telling you that you do need something your husband is (apparently) incapable of providing.

I'd completely concur that resuming with your affair partner sounds like something for you to avoid in any way possible. I'm glad that you are managing longings and desires for him.

OTOH, I do believe you will be able to find a man who does care about you the way your affair partner did. Or perhaps better, the way you thought he did!
Logged
BeagleGirl
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: Divorced
Posts: 570



« Reply #5 on: April 17, 2017, 06:56:20 PM »

I don’t want to monopolize this thread, but recounting my journey has been more comforting than I expected.
I’ve covered a lot of the progress that I’ve made in the past 3 years, and I hope it brings hope.  I also know that in the midst of the most painful times I really wanted to know that others had been in just as much pain and survived, so the “success” side of the stories didn’t bring as much hope or comfort.  So here are some of the dark times that I hope will be of comfort to others.
I have been haunted, pursued relentlessly, by reminders of my time with my affair partner to the point where I thought I would go crazy and would have welcomed anything that would erase those memories – drugs, stroke, death.  I have stood in the midst of a thunderstorm with lightning running through the clouds and begged God to strike me dead because, as sorry as I was for what I had done, I still longed for another man and the way he made me feel.  I have wept over and over in grief and guilt for what I had destroyed in my marriage, another’s marriage, and in myself and KNOWN that the stain could never be washed away.  I have played with fire, having unnecessary contact with my affair partner, and knowing that I was once again betraying my husband.  I have suffered from panic attacks on a daily basis for months at a time over the fear of encountering my affair partner or his wife.
I have raged at God for asking me to leave my affair before my affair partner had the chance to hurt me and break the illusion of happiness I had with him.  I have seen God as a cruel puppet master and made it VERY clear to Him that I would obey His laws only because I had no other choice, not out of love for Him.  I have gone through the motions of attending church and living life while worse than dead inside.  I should also mention that during the past 3 years I had 3 miscarriages.  Each pregnancy started as a symbol of renewed hope and forgiveness, as I had been barren for 6 years.  Each ended like a cruel joke that God was playing on me.  The last miscarriage happened on Mother’s Day and from the time I had gotten the positive pregnancy test my only prayer had been “God, please don’t take this one until after Mother’s Day”.  Let’s just say that God and I were not on speaking terms for a loong time after that, and I still have times when I can’t believe that I’m actually putting my trust in Him again.
My children kept me alive, quite literally.  I am fairly convinced that I would have taken my life to escape the pain if I hadn’t been unwilling to put them through that.  They have also been a source of healing for me, even though they don’t know about the affair or how God has used them.  He’s also been using complete strangers lately to remind me of who I am, apart from my husband, apart from my affair partner, apart from anyone else I could look to for validation.
Several years ago, my younger son made me a picture frame.  For some reason, he painted the words “You are fireworks” on it.  I saw the other children’s frames and this was definitely not something he was directed or encouraged to do.  That frame, with his picture, hangs in my teeny tiny apartment.  The words remind me of who I was created to be, because I am like fireworks, for him and others around me.
I lost my ability to sing or listen to music for about 2 years.  I have always been full of song and it was one of the things that my affair partner loved and affirmed in me, while my husband has never seemed to consider it something special about me. In my mind, singing became tied to my affair and I felt like it died with the affair.  Slowly, the music has been coming back.  I was put in positions where I needed to sing to bring joy and laughter to others.  The lyrics were what mattered (I wrote them), not the performance quality, and I was able to forget the bitter-sweetness of the act.  Then a week later I was singing along to a song playing in a store under my breath as I shopped.  A complete stranger stopped me and said “You have a beautiful voice”.  And if a stranger is willing to stop you in the middle of a store to tell you that it MUST be true.    Since then, I know that music is part of who I am again, and I can give it freely.

One last thought; I talked a lot about forgiveness in my previous post.  I think my process of repentance has given me insight into the difference between remorse and repentance that I have been watching for in my husband.  I haven't talked much about the ways he has hurt me, and I don't know that the specifics matter.  The thing that has mattered most to me has been the lack of repentance.  He's shown remorse sporadically, but there has always been evidence of continued justification from him.  As I have often told him, "I appreciate that you ask forgiveness for the hurt you have caused, but until I stop seeing justification of those acts I have no reason to believe that the behaviors will stop, so you are still not a "safe person" for me."  I would imagine the same holds true for a betrayed spouse and is why I put so much stress on the "No Justification" rule when dealing with my affair.

Thank you to DearHusband for encouraging me to start this thread.  It has been a blessing to me.  I’ll “shut up” now and let someone else “talk”.
Logged
Grey Kitty
********
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: Separated
Posts: 7182



« Reply #6 on: April 18, 2017, 11:28:15 AM »

I lost my ability to sing or listen to music for about 2 years.  I have always been full of song and it was one of the things that my affair partner loved and affirmed in me, while my husband has never seemed to consider it something special about me. In my mind, singing became tied to my affair and I felt like it died with the affair.  Slowly, the music has been coming back.  I was put in positions where I needed to sing to bring joy and laughter to others.  The lyrics were what mattered (I wrote them), not the performance quality, and I was able to forget the bitter-sweetness of the act.  Then a week later I was singing along to a song playing in a store under my breath as I shopped.  A complete stranger stopped me and said “You have a beautiful voice”.  And if a stranger is willing to stop you in the middle of a store to tell you that it MUST be true.    Since then, I know that music is part of who I am again, and I can give it freely.

That is what I was talking about when I said this:

I do believe you will be able to find a man who does care about you the way your affair partner did. Or perhaps better, the way you thought he did!

I don't know why going through all the strife in this affair was what it took for you to really accept how music is important to you, but it clearly was something you needed to learn. 

Excerpt
I appreciate that you ask forgiveness for the hurt you have caused, but until I stop seeing justification of those acts I have no reason to believe that the behaviors will stop, so you are still not a "safe person" for me.

This is a rather bleak comment about your husband and your marriage.

Are you hoping that he will do better than that so you can reconcile?

Are you hoping that you will be strong enough to go back to a marriage like that?
Logged
BeagleGirl
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: Divorced
Posts: 570



« Reply #7 on: April 18, 2017, 08:33:37 PM »

Are you hoping that he will do better than that so you can reconcile?

Are you hoping that you will be strong enough to go back to a marriage like that?


Hope is a double edged sword.  Hope can keep you going, against all odds, so that you are able to experience something miraculous.  And hope can keep you going, against all odds, so you can keep going, against all odds, so you can keep going... .  I am learning to be more careful about what I put my hope in.  Maybe some hope for change in him will return, but I am not pursuing that hope.  I've found it too painful to sustain.

I guess that at this time I am hoping that either I will be able to return to the marriage strong enough to experience the joy of loving someone with no expectation for love in return, or that God will provide a way for me to leave the marriage without compromising who I am.  I don't know what form that release from my vows would take, but I know I'm not there yet, nor am I ready to give myself willingly back to my husband.

I believe that I could be loved by someone else.  I even believe that, in time, I could trust someone else enough to love them back fully and freely.  I don't believe that divorce is the unforgivable sin.  In fact, I believe my husband would have been fully within his rights to divorce me after my affair, even though I was repentant and willing to reconcile.  I even believe that I have had grounds for divorce throughout most of our marriage (by virtue of his chronic and covert pornography use and unwillingness to engage in repentance and restitution for the damage it caused). 

I know that no matter which I choose - to stay or to go - my life will change drastically.  Either path has incredible potential for pain and, IF I know I am doing the right thing, growth and joy.  Leaving my affair partner at the time and in the way I did was the hardest thing I have ever done, but the core of who I am was strengthened because of it.  I know the same will be true if I am willing to wait until I KNOW what I am called to do with my marriage.  The waiting is hard.  The uncertainty is excruciating.  For now my hope is in being shaped rather than shattered by patiently enduring this process rather than fighting it.
Logged
Grey Kitty
********
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: Separated
Posts: 7182



« Reply #8 on: April 19, 2017, 05:47:06 PM »

So you consider an affair sufficient reason for a divorce... .Personally, I would agree; in fact, the reason I separated from my wife was that she was unwilling to cut contact with the guy she cheated on me with. I also agree that remorse/repentence and other circumstances make a big difference here.

And you would consider your H's use of pornography a reason for divorce. Personally, I wouldn't.

Yet you don't seem to consider your H's chronic abusive and controlling behavior, or failure to treat you in a loving, caring way to be sufficient... .even though it is bad enough that you are unwilling to move back with him and reconcile because of it.

I find this to be far worse than either of the above. Is it the sexual nature of the other offenses that seem sufficient to you when the other things don't?
Logged
BeagleGirl
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: Divorced
Posts: 570



« Reply #9 on: April 19, 2017, 07:03:21 PM »

Grey Kitty,

That's an interesting question.  I think that the main distinction for me (at least at this time) is what are Biblical grounds for divorce.  I have done tons of reading on this topic and know that there is a very broad range of what people are able/willing to fit into that category, so I'm trying to work that out between me and God. 

I am realizing that there is a huge component of wanting to gain/maintain the approval of others influencing my viewpoint.  Many of the people whose approval I most desire do not see the abuse and/or don't see abuse as a reason for divorce if the abuser shows remorse and doesn't seek divorce.  There are no bruises, no broken objects, or holes in walls to show them.  They see his tears of remorse and (I think they feel) coming from a man they must mean more than my tears of anger and hurt.  There is no "other woman" that he's unwilling to give up because jerking off to porn while your wife sleeps beside you, exhausted from crying about the baby she is miscarrying is not the same as having sex with an actual woman.  There's no evidence that he hasn't broken off the "relationship" with the porn sites other than the glow of the computer screen that you pretend not to see when you wake up in the middle of the night to an empty bed and would rather just swallow that sick feeling and pretend to sleep rather than acknowledge that making yourself freely available to him for sexual satisfaction is not enough.  YOU are not enough.  And since so many men consider porn acceptable, or are Christian men who have "struggled with porn" and identify with your husband, you can't bring yourself to tell anyone that porn is the ONLY verifiable justification you have for divorce.

This is why have prayed "God, can you please just let him hit me and leave a mark, or go have an "actual" affair so I can be free?" and then wept that I wanted something so ugly.

So I'm still trying to figure out if/how I can justify divorcing him without losing myself when who I am believes I must forgive seventy times seven, because I have been forgiven and it has made all the difference. 

There are times when I think I'm almost there... .I'm almost ready to trust God to provide the joy in loving my husband unconditionally.  Then I think of giving my body to him as I believe I would need to do if I return to him as his wife and I don't know how I can move past the feeling of being violated and used.

I should be clear that, to my knowledge, he has not used porn in over a year.  He went through a program designed to break porn addiction and teach how to value and achieve healthy intimacy, emotional as well as physical.  I'd say he's probably batting .500 at best on those goals.  Obviously, I still have some work to do in healing in that area.

I'm realizing that
Logged
formflier
Retired Staff
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Relationship status: Married
Posts: 19076



WWW
« Reply #10 on: April 20, 2017, 08:12:53 AM »


BeagleGirl,

I'm offering the following comments from memory, so if anything in particular strikes you as "Biblically wrong"... please challenge me and I'll do some study.

That being said... .


  is what are Biblical grounds for divorce. 

No attempt to quote scripture... .this is my interpretation.

The only Biblical grounds (IMO) are sex outside of marriage (adultery) with lack of repentance. 

I am aware that many Christians would argue that the adultery would be enough, but when I look at the overall message of the Bible, it's the "repentant heart" that is the key.  We are all sinners... that's a given.  The variable is the repentant heart.


   so I'm trying to work that out between me and God. 

Best of luck.  I'll pray for you.  I'll also caution you that trying to work something out, when God's word speaks clearly about it, is usually a frustrating path.  Especially when an option is to accept a plain reading of what God has written.

  Many of the people whose approval I most desire

Can you elaborate more on this?  A decision making process based on gaining others approval is going to be problematic and most likely an unhealthy process.




 porn is the ONLY verifiable justification you have for divorce.

Frankly, (IMO) it is not. 

The focus on David getting in trouble with Bathsheba was not that he watched her take a bath (perhaps porn back in those days).  It was that he acted on it and then used his power to cover it up.  Took a long time for him to find a "repentant heart".

I'm not excusing porn or saying it's not a sin.  But I think a "plain reading" of scripture is talking about an actual affair with sexual intercourse.


This is why have prayed "God, can you please just let him hit me and leave a mark, or go have an "actual" affair so I can be free?" and then wept that I wanted something so ugly.

     

Tough stuff. 

I would pray... .and ask you to pray that God works on your heart and your actions.  Focus on you, vice focus on him.  Let the Holy Spirit due it's job on him... .or not. 


So I'm still trying to figure out if/how I can justify divorcing him without losing myself when who I am believes I must forgive seventy times seven, because I have been forgiven and it has made all the difference. 


I suspect you understand this is not justifiable, yet hope to find a way to do so.  Lot's of wasted energy.

I'm almost ready to trust God to provide the joy in loving my husband unconditionally.


The question you really need to ask for wisdom on.

Does God want you to "love" your husband unconditionally?

Does God command that?

FF
Logged

formflier
Retired Staff
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Relationship status: Married
Posts: 19076



WWW
« Reply #11 on: April 20, 2017, 08:15:08 AM »



How do you interpret Matthew 7:6

6 “Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces.


How do you interpret proverbs 4:23

3 Above all else, guard your heart, for everything you do flows from it.


FF
Logged

Grey Kitty
********
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: Separated
Posts: 7182



« Reply #12 on: April 20, 2017, 10:52:03 PM »

I should probably bow out of this topic, as I wouldn't base my decisions on whether to divorce or not on biblical reasons, and don't have a clue what is a biblical basis for divorce, and what isn't.

My belief (again, not based on anything bibilcal) is that porn ITSELF isn't the relationship issue. Your example here IS an egregious relationship issue... .
Excerpt
jerking off to porn while your wife sleeps beside you, exhausted from crying about the baby she is miscarrying
But to me, the issue is that he's neglecting your needs and your care. If he was playing world of warcraft in the exact same circumstances, I wouldn't find that to be any better.
Logged
DearHusband
**
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Posts: 94


« Reply #13 on: April 21, 2017, 01:55:59 AM »

Hello BeagleGirl,

Thanks for starting this thread. I meant to jump in earlier, but haven't had the time. Your story and mine are similar, yet different.

Four years ago tomorrow, will be the anniversary of the day my wife found my phone and the incriminating evidence of an emotional affair that had the chance to imminently become a full-blown affair. Prior to this event, I had struggled with justification for leaving the marriage. After she had walked out on me and our children for the nth time (but each time for only a night), I had contacted a lawyer about divorce, but I didn't go through with anything.

It wasn't until she took the kids to a hotel and threatened to take them on a skiing vacation without me because I left to run errands without telling her (she was dysregulating and I was being passive aggressive) that I decided I needed to leave. Around this time, I was told that everyone in my division would be laid off and I debated whether now was the right time to make a move.

My affair partner from work had picked up on my distress and reached out to me at exactly this time and combination of events was too much for me to resist. She was also struggling in her marriage and offered a sympathetic ear, whereas my wife was only concerned about how the layoff would affect her. While my wife was introverted, my affair partner was extroverted, athletic, self-confident, and charming. Everything about us seemed to be in sync. She was my myers-brigg compliment. Our backgrounds were eerily similar. It was like we were made for each other. Later, a counselor suggested that she might have also been BPD, which is why I fell so hard for her so fast. It also explains the risky behavior, etc.

After D-Day, I told my affair partner I couldn't see her anymore while I sorted through the mess of emotions I was feeling. I remember going to my son's baseball game and watching him from affair and feeling like half a dad. This was in period immediately after discovery where she had asked me to move out. I felt scared that I would be separated from my children and guilty about the affair. At the same time, I wasn't about to forget the abuse.

It was really hard to reconcile. I missed my affair partner. She did get a divorce and I was jealous of her strength. I was mad about the abuse and I discovered that abuse was one of the things that justified divorce in the eyes of some churches. I wanted to leave and run to my affair partner so badly. But, I still felt guilty for betraying my wife (who despite her flaws, is loyal) and I felt I needed more time with my kids. So, I stayed with my wife. It was the right decision from the perspective of spending time with my kids. It took me a while to find work again and while I was looking, i became the primary caregiver while my wife went back to work for the first time in 9 years.

My wife and I tried a number of things to make things work, including counseling. It didn't go particularly smoothly. A year ago, I actually moved out for six months. I discovered BPD and decided I could use the techniques to make things work. So, I moved back in. But, I can never be remorseful enough on demand. I also have lost the moral high-ground, so I am sometimes ineffective at protecting my son 12 from her explosions. Earlier this week, he tried to diffuse a situation, only to be beaten down and forced to apologize for something that I triggered because I wasn't being considerate enough to her.

I realize I'm rambling, so I'll stop for now. Suffice it to say that it's been a rough road. My wife has never forgiven me and says she never will. I wonder if I really did her any favors by staying. She seems miserable all the time and sighs constantly. I am a reminder. A trigger. The source of all her pain. Or so I am told. But, she doesn't want to divorce because it will pierce the veil of secrecy that she uses to convince the outside world that we have a perfect life.

DH
Logged
BeagleGirl
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: Divorced
Posts: 570



« Reply #14 on: April 21, 2017, 05:21:52 AM »

Formflier,
You have put out a lot of excellent questions that I have been considering all day.  It may take me a while to respond to all of them, but the ones that have been foremost in my mind are around the differences in how you and I view porn.  I'll start by apologizing if I use "crass" or even offensive terminology, but I'd really like to have a better understanding and don't want any questions about what behaviors we are talking about.

The first questions I'll address are around why I feel that porn use is equivalent to an affair from the biblical perspective of making it a permissible reason to divorce.

You used the example of David and Bathsheba as a differentiation between porn (watching Bathsheba from his palace rooftop) and an affair (bringing her to the palace and having sex with her).  My understanding of that example is that the "moral of the story" was not about whether David had an affair and his wives would have had a case for divorce.  Would the prophet Nathan have shown up on his doorstep if all David had done was neglect his responsibilities as a king and husband so that he could hang out on his roof day after day watching Bathsheba bathe?  Unfortunately, we will never know.  We do know that David went on to take Bathsheba into his bed and arrange to have her husband killed in battle to cover up his sin.  Those were the sins Nathan addressed, but I believe they were just select fruit that sprang from the same tree that bore the sin of "Old Testament porn use".

The Bible, to my knowledge, is silent on the topic of pornography.  The verse that I, and many biblical scholars, feel most directly addresses this topic is Matthew 5:28 - "But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart."

So here is where I'd like your feedback on my understanding of the "logical leap" from ":)ivorce is permissible in cases of adultery.  Use of porn is equivalent to adultery, therefore divorce is permissible in cases of porn use."

I would also welcome a better understanding of what behaviors you see as porn use that does not carry the same impact as an affair with a physical woman and why.  Here is my basic stance.  For simplicity's sake, I will use the example of a heterosexual man engaging in pornography use vs adultery, but I hold myself and other women to the same standards.
Seeing a woman/billboard/pop up website, etc. and having lustful thoughts/becoming aroused does not cross the line to "looks at a woman with lustful intent" if recognized and consciously stopped, by looking away or closing the pop up.  That is temptation, and we all face temptation.

Choosing to continue looking for the purpose of maintaining or escalating/satisfying arousal or looking for further details and storing those mental images away for future use is where the line is crossed from my perspective, but is difficult to substantiate by an outsider.  I feel the harm done to the marriage and marriage partner is the same, but the evidence is lacking.

Typing in the web address for a porn site, turning the channel to a show with known sexually stimulating content, driving intentionally by "that" billboard, or calling up the mental images of other women, in my mind, is tantamount to dialing the number of a willing sexual partner and requesting sexual stimulation and/or release.  I don't differentiate between whether or not there is an ejaculation (my affair partner was willing but not always able to reach climax with me.  I don't think that little technicality would have gotten him off the hook even if he never achieved climax with me).  I don't differentiate between whether that ejaculation took place in a hand, towel, vagina of another woman, or in my vagina.  Any time images of another woman are used for sexual stimulation and/or release qualifies as "looking lustfully upon a woman" in my book.

I want to be clear that I include willfulness in my definition.  I know that sexual images pop, unbidden, into the minds of men (and women).  I struggled with images of my affair partner on a very regular basis soon after the affair, and still do on occasion.  That, in my mind, is temptation up until the point when I recognize the content of my thoughts and choose to continue them in that direction.

A few words on the topic of remorse/repentance after infidelity (either through traditionally defined adultery or use of porn).  I believe that remorse may or may not lead to repentance, but repentance will always lead to change.  I know that my husband felt sorry/shameful after his porn use.  He experienced remorse.  He even managed to stop using porn for varying periods of time.  I believe that his track record of going back to porn is one piece of evidence that he was not repentant.  I'll draw some parallels between his porn use and my physical affair as contrast between remorse and repentance:

I chose to end my affair and confess it to my husband and others and set up accountability relationships/measures and continue those accountability measures/relationships to this day.  My husband only confessed porn use when "caught" and did not seek out accountability, or quickly discontinued accountability measures.

When temptations occur to compromise my boundaries with my former affair partner (physically or mentally) I address them with God and my accountability partners, whether or not I succumb to the temptation.  My husband has not done this in the past.

I have actively sought to understand the full impact my infidelity has had on my husband, through reading, speaking with others who have been betrayed, and speaking directly with him.  My husband has not actively/willingly sought understanding of the impact of his pornography use on me and has minimized it when I have shared it with him.

Those are just some of the examples of what I see as the contrast between remorse and repentance.

On a bit more personal note; I suspect that your view of porn as distinct and "less than" adultery may be tied to a level of personal acceptance that porn is a justifiable and even necessary way of coping with a lack of sexual fulfillment.  I am open to that discussion, but in my personal experience that was not the case.  For well over a decade I viewed it as my responsibility not only to meet my husband's sexual needs, but to protect him from temptation by proactively making sure he was satisfied.  I was committed to initiating sex if it had been more than 3 days since our last sexual encounter and if I was going to need to be away on a business trip I made sure to initiate sex within 24 hours before I left, the closer to my departure, the better.  I regularly checked in with him to see if he felt we were having sex often enough and did my best to accommodate his sexual needs when I was unable/uninterested in having vaginal intercourse.  There were plenty of times when he declined my offer, and I later found out that he was doing so because he either had or wanted to masturbate to porn instead.

I still struggle with the idea that I am not enough for my husband sexually, no matter how many times I read that "porn use is not about the wife".  Even if that phrase only means that there was nothing lacking in me that drove my husband to porn, I hate it.  Because porn use had EVERYTHING to do with THIS wife.  If he had an affair, at least there would be spaces that I would feel safe from encountering "her" and having to compete with "her" for my husbands attention and affection.  As it is, I never feel safe.  "She" may jog by, be on a billboard we drive by, or pop up when he is looking for a recipe online.  "She" remains unclothed and enticing on the computer my sons use for homework.  "She" has been invited into my bed while I slept, and into his mind while he was "making love" to me.  "She" is always available and willing.  "She" will never disappoint him.  "She" will never confront me or ask him to choose between us. 

HE may have robbed us of the chance to have another child during those years when I thought I was barren (and may have been) but his sperm count was probably low because he was jerking off every chance he got.  HE chose unattached sexual satisfaction rather than deal the desires and expectations of his wife.  HE views sex as an act that provides release rather than a physical expression of love and intimacy. 

I have been left with a distorted view of myself and sex.  I feel used and violated when we have sex because I see his willingness to separate the act of sexual release from emotional intimacy.  I am plagued with fears that I am just the acceptable object for him to ejaculate in and that his mind is on the images that he spent so many years using for sexual release.  I have responded in unhealthy ways, most visibly by adding 70 lbs of fat to my body in a semi-conscious attempt to protect myself from the sexual interest of him and other men. 

These are some of MY issues that are directly related to my husbands use of porn.  I would welcome your thoughts on how they fundamentally differ from adultery as defined as sex with another woman and why porn would not fall under the Bibically justifiable reasons for divorce.
Logged
BeagleGirl
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: Divorced
Posts: 570



« Reply #15 on: April 21, 2017, 06:01:49 AM »

DH,
Thank you for sharing more of your story.  I can definitely empathize with where you are.  Though I vowed that I would not go back to my affair partner even if he were to leave his wife, I consider it a blessing that I have not been put in a position to test that vow.  I acknowledge that I still idealize that relationship and tend to minimize the "red flags" that say that I would have been hurt by him eventually, but that knowledge doesn't necessarily cancel out the draw of the man who made me feel loved in a way I never have with my husband.

How do you feel you are doing with setting/enforcing boundaries with your wife as relates to the affair?  I know the feeling of having "given up the moral high ground", but do you think that YOU can accept that you have done all you can reasonably be expected to do to express repentance and do your part in the restoration of the marriage?  If not, I think that's a good place to start.  It has taken me a loong time to "live like I've been forgiven".

If you feel like you have done that work, I would suggest that you start to address setting and communicating some boundaries with your wife.  Understanding those boundaries yourself is the first priority, since you have little hope of help from your wife in this area.  My boundaries with my husband are "You are allowed to feel hurt, anger, jealousy, etc. over the affair and express those feelings to me so that I am allowed the opportunity of emotional intimacy with you.  You are responsible for telling me if/when you feel those feelings are being triggered by my failure to adhere to accountability behaviors we have agreed to (open access to my texts, phone history, and emails upon request, etc).  I am responsible for making a reasonable attempt to adjust any behaviors that may be triggering you."  The key boundary:  "I will not accept blame for your bad behaviors based on your feelings about the affair, whether directed at me or anyone else." 

I would probably try to move discussions in the direction of "I'm sorry you feel like I am not truly repentant of my betrayal of you and our wedding vows.  I know it is impossible for either of us to fully know the thoughts and emotions of the other, so I'd like to focus on understanding what behaviors you see me engaging in that cause doubt about my sincerity to remain faithful to you."

You also mentioned the "shroud of secrecy".  Would you mind sharing who knows about your affair?  I have found it invaluable to have regular contact with people who are fully aware of what I did and what I have done since.  They have helped me see behaviors I needed to understand as triggers for my husband and have also been my biggest advocates when my husband has tried to hold onto bitterness and anger and blame his bad behaviors on me and my affair.

Hang in there.  Whether you ultimately stay or leave the marriage, I believe that working through the aftermath of an affair can be one of the most character refining experiences none of us want to go through.  Smiling (click to insert in post)
BeagleGirl
Logged
formflier
Retired Staff
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Relationship status: Married
Posts: 19076



WWW
« Reply #16 on: April 21, 2017, 08:30:11 AM »


Ultimately this is between you and God.  We all "put a spin" on how we read and interpret the Bible.  I DO think that God DID NOT address each potential situation explicitly BECAUSE he wants us to seek him.  To pray for wisdom.

My big recommendation from you is to ask yourself if you are being consistent in how you read and interpret the Bible.  If you find yourself doing gymnastics to make a verse or two "fit" so that you can divorce your husband, I would be concerned. 

IMO, when people go verse 1 says x, verse 2 says y, verse 3 says z THEREFOR I will do ABC, I get concerned that people are "using" the Bible to justify behavior the Bible never intended.

I tend to view the Bible as more of a guidebook than a rulebook.  Although there are rules that are consistently talked about that I think people would be unwise to ignore.

If your reference for divorcing your husband is a "body of work" in the Bible (many verses over many books) then I would feel comfortable.  If you are finding one or two and then using "therefor"... .again... concern.

I tend to be a "plain reader" of the Bible.  I believe the Bible was written for common folk and it says what is says.  I also think it doesn't say what it doesn't say.  I believe it is God's word and just as it is bad to take away from God's word, there are consistent warnings not to add to God's word as well.

Big point of clarity  I'm totally fine with BeagleGirl saying.  I won't be married to a man that uses porn.  I would support you in that.  That's your decision.  You own it.  You get the upside and the downside of that decision. 

Using the Bible as a "guidebook" I think there is a consistent message that you are supposed to be a good steward of you and you own your decisions.  Vice using a "get out of jail free" card that "God gave you".  (I don't know enough about your thinking or situation to suggest this is how you are thinking about it, but I know many people that do think this way.)  They abdicate their adult decisions to God.  IMO, we have free will and are accountable for our actions.

Back to "plain reading".  Some can read this as "snarky"... .please don't. 

Does God put people in jail that look longingly at a bank vault full of money and wish it was theirs? 

Does God deal with the sin in their heart for coveting what a neighbor has?

Can you see a connection to the issue you are wrestling with?

Plain reading:  When the Bible was written what constituted an affair?  What were they talking about?

Please don't read that I'm saying porn is NOT sinful or OK.  Porn is what it is and I don't think people got stoned for it in Biblical times. 

What did they get stoned for?

This is not easy stuff, it has been debated by scholars for a long time.  Guess what.  200 years from now... .they will still be debating it.

I've chosen to use Romans 8:28 and "lean into" the hard work of leading, guiding and protecting the family God has entrusted me.  Frankly:  I don't "want" to be married to my wife or "put up" with her behavior.  I believe I have a role to play in the maturing process of my wife and I.  I'm not aware of promises from God that say I will "like" everything or only do "what I want".

Being and adult and follower of God has a cost and a benefit.  Standing up for my country and serving in wartime has a cost and a benefit.  Deciding to stay (for now) in a BPDish relationship has a cost and a benefit.

There are no free lunches.  That is... .what it is.

Final thought:  Is your decision to stay (or go) consistent with your personality, who you are at a core level?  If you are going against "who you are"... .be concerned.  If your actions are consistent over your life, it is more likely that you are where you need to be.

My example:  I've got a "dudley doright" streak to me.  Somehow have decided it's my job to stand up to wrong, even at great personal cost.  This has been taught to the men in my family for generations.  I teach it to my boys.  In school I got in a number of fights where I stood up for others that were being bullied.  I served in the military and protected others.  So... .it's not to much of a leap to see how standing in between my wife and one of our kids was an act that was consistent with who I was and what I have been equipped to do.

Can you look at decisions in your life and knit together a story that works for you and the decision to stay or go?  What has God equipped you to do?


I hope this helps. 

FF






Logged

formflier
Retired Staff
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Relationship status: Married
Posts: 19076



WWW
« Reply #17 on: April 21, 2017, 08:51:09 AM »


Wanted to address my views on porn separately.  It would be interesting to hear other guys input and experiences... gals too.

I believe porn has had an atypical role in my r/s.  I used porn AND SHAME (deliberately) to free myself from accusations and weird sex stories.  Although I will admit the dysfunction wasn't fixed, it just went to other areas of the r/s.

Intrigued?  Read on

In all honestly, the majority of the weird sex stories and visuals that are knocking about my head have come from my wife via accusations. 

"I know you and Susie Sugar britches (our renter) were working off some rent last night."

"You want to do xyz with abc."  (when in reality... it never crossed my mind.)  So... .next time I see abc... .what do I think about?  You guessed it... .xyz.

For years I was unable to get rid of these type of things... .then one day I opened my email.

My wife had sent me porn.  Yep... .you read that right.  My wife was praising the braveness of the lady for being nude without perfect breasts (or something like that).

Note:  My actions after this certainly were not in keeping with anything taught on bpdfamily, I'm lucky it worked for me.

We were in marriage counseling at the time with a female therapist.  I made a big deal about it at the start of the session.  My wife tried to claim it wasn't porn... .it was "just" a naked woman.

Well I went off and demanded that my wife and the therapist "reflect back" to me that I NEVER AGAIN want my wife to "present me" any sort of image of another woman without her clothes on.

Furthermore I'm not interested in listened to "sex stories" about me and other women (the accusations).

I asked for an explanation of how my wife could be afraid of me going after other women and "present them" to me at the same time. 

It went on and on.  My wife keep trying to shut down the conversation saying it "wasn't a big deal" and I countered with "it is to me".  Therapist supported me against the "unwanted sexual activity" (wife was mortified)

Did I mention wife was mortified... .   

Amazingly... .the stories and theories stopped. 

Not taking the second look is a struggle for me and many men.  It's part of our nature.  I'm not saying that to excuse behavior.  It is what it is. 

Just because "we are wired a certain way" doesn't mean it's ok to do those things, it does mean that is an area of your life where you will likely put in a lot of work.  BPDish stuff adds spice to that.

FF

Logged

DearHusband
**
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Posts: 94


« Reply #18 on: April 21, 2017, 09:58:41 AM »

Perhaps there should be a separate thread on porn. My personal view is that it is a individual decision. It bothers some more than others. It's a problem for some more than others.  Some couples watch it together. Others wouldn't have anything to do with it. For BeagleGirl, it sounds like your husband has a problem with it and you fall into the camp of zero tolerance.

Switching back to affair recovery. My wife will be celebrating 9:02am today. That's the anniversary of D-Day.  In talking today about what happened, and ignoring all of the jabs, it's clear that she feels I have been too passive in recovery.

I have a reputation at work of being very calm in the face of problems. I have been accused of not taking the situation seriously. I wonder if that same demeanor is making it hard for my wife to see that I am trying. I'm also quite open to the possibility that 1) I wouldn't mind it not working out because then at least it would be a chance and 2) when she can't help but attack me as a person instead of my actions that were wrong, I disengage, resulting in her feeling invalidated.

I'm just not sure I can fill the endless pit of need for her to see me feel remorseful. I may not have it in me to beat myself up that much. In fact, I know that I don't .So, how do I make her feel that Im repentant?

DH
Logged
Grey Kitty
********
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: Separated
Posts: 7182



« Reply #19 on: April 21, 2017, 08:14:47 PM »

Switching back to affair recovery. My wife will be celebrating 9:02am today. That's the anniversary of D-Day.  In talking today about what happened, and ignoring all of the jabs, it's clear that she feels I have been too passive in recovery.

[... .]

I'm just not sure I can fill the endless pit of need for her to see me feel remorseful. I may not have it in me to beat myself up that much. In fact, I know that I don't .So, how do I make her feel that Im repentant?

This is a boundary issue, and both of you have very mushy boundaries around this.

I'm not quite sure what you mean when your wife says you've been too passive in recovery, but it sounds vague, controlling, and boundary busting--it sounds like the sort of vague accusation that nobody can really judge what side you are on.

And her feelings are hers--you cannot ever in any way, make her feel anything.

You cannot make her feel you are repentant. It isn't possible.

You can express it sincerely, but it is her choice to believe it or not.
Logged
Grey Kitty
********
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: Separated
Posts: 7182



« Reply #20 on: April 21, 2017, 08:20:08 PM »

I have been left with a distorted view of myself and sex.  I feel used and violated when we have sex because I see his willingness to separate the act of sexual release from emotional intimacy.  I am plagued with fears that I am just the acceptable object for him to ejaculate in and that his mind is on the images that he spent so many years using for sexual release.  I have responded in unhealthy ways, most visibly by adding 70 lbs of fat to my body in a semi-conscious attempt to protect myself from the sexual interest of him and other men.

I think the core here is the lack of emotional intimacy, and the damage it did to you.

Perhaps rather than him being willing to separate sex from emotional intimacy is understating his condition badly.

More likely, he is incapable of emotional intimacy in almost any form, whether accompanied by sex or not. And again, likely he was avoiding sex with you because you brought more emotional intimacy to the act than he was comfortable with.
Logged
BeagleGirl
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: Divorced
Posts: 570



« Reply #21 on: April 21, 2017, 09:19:41 PM »

I think the core here is the lack of emotional intimacy, and the damage it did to you.

Perhaps rather than him being willing to separate sex from emotional intimacy is understating his condition badly.

More likely, he is incapable of emotional intimacy in almost any form, whether accompanied by sex or not. And again, likely he was avoiding sex with you because you brought more emotional intimacy to the act than he was comfortable with.


GK (funny how I feel like I should ask permission to use your "familiar name",

Our counselor has said much the same thing about the root of his porn use - much easier to engage in sex with someone you don't have to have any emotional intimacy with.  She views it as an unwillingness and laziness rather than an inability.  That's a very important distinction for me, so I'd love to hear your opinion.  If he is "unable", then there is not really any hope for the kind of change that I would need to resume physical intimacy with him...   If he is "unwilling and lazy", then he has a choice in the matter and there is hope, if I hold my boundaries, he might learn to provide the emotional intimacy that I feel is necessary for me to resume physical intimacy with him.

I understand that this could be a hot button statement for those of you men whose wives use physical intimacy as a manipulation tool. I know that my husband feels that way about my relatively new stance on physical intimacy (I will not engage in physical intimacy when I feel there is not sufficient emotional intimacy for me to feel like an active and willing participant rather than an object of his sexual release).  I know that my response to some of the viewpoints on porn need more time prayer to process.  I hope and pray that we can have grace on both sides of the discussion to be able to hear and be heard, because I really want to understand and I have yet to find a venue where the discussion can be open and honest between men and women.

So I guess my ultimate question is "is there hope that a husband with BPD could learn to manage sexual urges in such a way that the expectation would be that they will be satisfied exclusively in an environment of emotional intimacy"?
Logged
formflier
Retired Staff
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Relationship status: Married
Posts: 19076



WWW
« Reply #22 on: April 22, 2017, 06:22:11 AM »


Please catch me up again on the status of diagnosis for mental health conditions.  How much testing has been done, if any?

I have a couple "initial reactions" that I'm going to tentatively put out there, if I'm on the wrong path please fill in my lack of understanding.


1.  Reaction 1

Excerpt
She views it as an unwillingness and laziness rather than an inability.

That you and the counselor lack experience and/or understanding of BPDish behavior.   Now, if the counselor has done extensive testing, interviews, sessions and has many years in "the business" I might back away from this some.

I DO agree that BPDish behavior might "seem" lazy or unwilling, and I'll even go so far as to say that may be true for a brief moment while some sort of emotional upset is in progress.  Once that upset is past... .it didn't happen, your pwBPD won't remember it the way you do.  It's a guarantee that "passing" the emotional upset will have a large element of dysfunction to it.

So (FF theory), your husband has an urge for "sexual release".  Your husband is married.  Most of us men look at our wives and say... "Hey baby... ."  It is likely that your husband considers that and then considers the emotional upset he feels at the moment over his sexual urge AND then starts to consider his "idea" of the ADDITIONAL emotional upset he fears he will have by being intimate with you. 

So... .he computes all that (dysfunctionaly) and decides that he "just needs to get past the feeling" and gain release.  The release comes ( ) happens, he feels better AND then he really doesn't remember much about how he solved the problem... .his emotions are "back to normal" for him, which is weird for us... .but normal for him. 

Judgment 1:  When he does this through masturbation you have a bad reaction to it because he "chose" something else over you.  This is completely understandable for you to feel this way.

Judgment 2:  When he does this through sex with you.  He likely goes again into the "avoid intimacy" and "just get through this" mode, which you interpret as lack of interest in you and you experience as "being used"... .vice being intimate.  Again... .completely understandable that you would experience it this way.


Uggg... .the implications of this dynamic on both of your emotional states is not good. 


Part of the reason (that I'm hearing) for your reluctance to have sex with him centers around your understanding of "his motivations"  Unless you are rock solid that BPD or other PDs have been ruled out through extensive testing I would suggest focusing less on his motivations and more on his actions.

Because... .we'll never know why someone does something.

I'll hush for now on this topic.

Thoughts?

FF



 
Logged

formflier
Retired Staff
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Relationship status: Married
Posts: 19076



WWW
« Reply #23 on: April 22, 2017, 06:45:30 AM »


So... .boundaries are normally "obvious" to everyone.  What is the name on the bank account, the title to the car.   All parties can see who "controls" access across the boundary

I'm hoping you can think through your boundary statement below

(I will not engage in physical intimacy when I feel there is not sufficient emotional intimacy for me to feel like an active and willing participant rather than an object of his sexual release). 

Please don't take any statements as right and wrong, but my hope is that you can better understand the potential dynamic in your r/s.

Who controls and is responsible for access to sex with you?  Yep... .you are.  Your body

Who controls and is responsible for your feelings?  Yep... .your are.  Your mind, your heart, your feelings.

Who is responsible for protecting and caring for your feelings?  Yep... you are. 


So... now we get to the relatively new dynamic in your r/s.

I understand that this could be a hot button statement for those of you men whose wives use physical intimacy as a manipulation tool. I know that my husband feels that way about my relatively new stance on physical intimacy 


Your husband dysfunctionaly expresses his emotions.  Has trouble with intimacy.  And now has additional (likely strong ) feelings about what "the rules" are for having sex with his wife.  What are the chances he will express those feelings to you in any kind of a positive way?  Yep... .about zero.

The boundary and dynamic that you have designed seems to put a disordered person in charge of satisfying the amount of emotional intimacy you require to have sex. 

How has that been working out?

Big breath... .big hug      

My take right now, tentatively, is that because of a fundamental misunderstanding of what you are facing in your marriage, you have "designed" a solution for a problem you aren't experiencing.

Step back.

When facing a complex problem. 

1.  Focus on understanding
2.  Take one "sliver" and apply some test solutions... consistently.
3.  Evaluate impact.
4.  If positive, apply your knowledge to the broader issue.
5.  If negative, back to step one.



So I guess my ultimate question is "is there hope that a husband with BPD could learn to manage sexual urges in such a way that the expectation would be that they will be satisfied exclusively in an environment of emotional intimacy"?

Yes... .there is hope.

FF
Logged

Grey Kitty
********
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: Separated
Posts: 7182



« Reply #24 on: April 22, 2017, 11:14:55 AM »

Our counselor has said much the same thing about the root of his porn use - much easier to engage in sex with someone you don't have to have any emotional intimacy with.  She views it as an unwillingness and laziness rather than an inability.  That's a very important distinction for me, so I'd love to hear your opinion. 

It is really hard to say whether he is unable or unwilling, but here are some thoughts to explore:

Q1: Does he seem capable of emotional intimacy in non-sexual settings? Especially with you, but for that matter, with anybody?

Q2: Earlier in your marriage, was there more emotional intimacy from him that he's since stopped?

Q3: Has your ability/willingness to have sex without the emotional intimacy decreased?

Excerpt
So I guess my ultimate question is "is there hope that a husband with BPD could learn to manage sexual urges in such a way that the expectation would be that they will be satisfied exclusively in an environment of emotional intimacy"?

I think the chances are very low w/o successful treatment of BPD, in general, but I'd like to clarify, because there seem to be two different issues in it:

1: Your H isn't having sex with you that involves emotional intimacy.
2: Your H is having sex w/o emotional intimacy, either with porn alone, or when he has sex with you.

Do you need to get #1, do you need to stop #2, or both equally?
Logged
Can You Help Us Stay on the Air in 2024?

Pages: [1]   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Our 2023 Financial Sponsors
We are all appreciative of the members who provide the funding to keep BPDFamily on the air.
12years
alterK
AskingWhy
At Bay
Cat Familiar
CoherentMoose
drained1996
EZEarache
Flora and Fauna
ForeverDad
Gemsforeyes
Goldcrest
Harri
healthfreedom4s
hope2727
khibomsis
Lemon Squeezy
Memorial Donation (4)
Methos
Methuen
Mommydoc
Mutt
P.F.Change
Penumbra66
Red22
Rev
SamwizeGamgee
Skip
Swimmy55
Tartan Pants
Turkish
whirlpoollife



Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2006-2020, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!