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Author Topic: Staying Resolute  (Read 470 times)
DaddyBear77
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« on: April 18, 2017, 04:52:44 PM »

The past few days have been a challenge for me and my relationship, to say the least.

In a previous thread I shared that, in the aftermath of a very difficult therapy session, I've (mostly) stayed true to my own feelings and beliefs. This is not something I'm accustomed to. That may sound strange, but for all 17 years of my relationship with my pwBPD, I would lie, sometimes quickly, sometimes after hours and hours of non-stop discussion, to end an argument. The result is that I've validated much of my pwBPD's delusional thinking, to the severe determent of my financial and extended family situation. Also, I've lost more and more of myself to the point where some of my thinking is also delusional, and I'm pretty frightened by that.

My question to everyone here is - how do you stand resolved in the face of the kind of attacks, pleading, and oddly persuasive arguments that our pwBPD sometimes throw at us? Do you rely on the tools here like SET and don't JADE? Do you leave the situation? How long do you let it go after you've tried the tools and nothing seems to be working?

Any personal experiences would be really helpful here.
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Notwendy
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« Reply #1 on: April 19, 2017, 06:30:33 AM »

It may help to understand her behavior in context of poor emotional regulation as well as behavior theory. People want what they want and are frustrated when they don't get it. Toddlers have temper tantrums. If we give in to a tantruming toddler, we are reinforcing that behavior. Toddlers want what they want, and if they learn that throwing a tantrum works to get them what they want- they will continue to do what works for them. If they learn that it doesn't work, then that behavior will diminish- but not immediately. The concept of an extinction burst states that the behavior is likely to increase first- as they test it. If you give in then, they learn that all they have to do to get past your first "no" is tantrum louder and longer. So, you have to be persistent.

In 17 years, you have established this pattern. Your wife knows how to get what she wants from you. It isn't necessarily that she is doing it because of some evil intent. It is because it works, and over 17 years you have taught her that it works.

The only way this can possibly change is for you to teach her that it doesn't work. However, you have to be able to emotionally regulate yourself while she has a fit. We talk about pwBPD having poor emotional regulation skills, but the honest truth is that we - the partners - are not able to deal with our own discomfort when someone else is not happy with us. We have a hard time saying no because of this. So we give in to avoid these feelings and then feel resentful.

We talk about the pwBPD being manipulative, but this behavior on our part is manipulative and controlling. We are managing the pwBPD's feelings when we give in, and so are also managing our own. When we give in, we don't feel like the bad guy, we gain a moment of peace. In exchange we reinforce the behaviors we are trying to avoid.

We use the relationship tools we have. Your wife is going to do what she has learned works for her. Why wouldn't she? It works. You will be tempted to do what you learned has worked for you as well, to relieve your own discomfort when your wife is upset with you. The key here is you- what can you do to stand firm, manage your own discomfort and let your wife learn to manage hers when you say no.

Personal experience? You know about my FOO, so saying no resulted in a lot of fear of this kind of thing. I brought this into my marriage. When my H was upset, he would get angry and I feared it when someone was angry. I would resolve this by giving in. I didn't know any other way. He learned that to yell at me worked to get him what he wanted. I became a doormat. The only way I learned to be able to say no was through the support of a T and co-dependency sponsor. My H didn't like it. Why would he be motivated to change something that got him what he wanted. Because I am able to  say no and deal with my own fears and discomfort, this behavior has diminished.

One thing my T said to me that made sense was that- giving in was not loving, it was diminishing my H. It was allowing him to yell at me,  enabling him to be less than his potential to be a good person. If you don't see yourself as a victim to your wife being mean to you, but as someone who is teaching her to be mean to you, it may help you to stay resolved. It may also help to think that you are doing her a kindness to teach her that these behaviors don't work.



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Tattered Heart
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« Reply #2 on: April 19, 2017, 09:36:58 AM »

One thing I try to do throughout the day, especially if I am feeling like something is nagging at me is to do an "Honoring myself" check. When I get that feeling that I'm angry, frustrated, or just general ill at ease inside, I ask myself, "What is really bothering myself? What do I need to do/say/act in order to honor myself?" And then I build up courage. And the weird thing is that when I do this, things go really really well when I talk to my H.



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DaddyBear77
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« Reply #3 on: April 19, 2017, 04:09:38 PM »

Notwendy, thank you so much - your post was amazing. And Tattered Heart - the "honoring myself" check is a great idea, and sounds like something I really need to incorporate.

I wish I could say that I've held strong the past 24-36 hours, but I haven't.

This time, as I was going back on my promise to myself and giving in to my pwBPD's pressure, I realized that I wasn't prepared to stand my ground and then ride the ride all the way to the end. So rather than stop cold in the middle of the argument, find my resolve in "real time," and change my tune, I decided to keep up the lie, regroup, and REALLY get prepared.

I'm fighting back negative feelings about myself right now - I failed, I should have stayed strong from the start, I shouldn't have lied that first lie 17 years ago, I'm only making things worse by giving in, I'm validating delusional thinking, I'm betraying my parents, my financial crisis gets worse and worse every day I avoid it, etc, etc. I think the first thing I need to do is acknowledge these feelings exist, but let them flow through me so I can move on to the more important steps.

As for getting prepared, I've had help from Ts which I can go back and review. I found a CODA meeting but didn't attend one yet, so that might help, right? And of course there are the tools here.

I'm getting so overwhelmed by all of this. It's important to keep the big picture in mind. I'm sure I'll get this eventually.

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« Reply #4 on: April 19, 2017, 04:33:58 PM »

My question to everyone here is - how do you stand resolved in the face of the kind of attacks, pleading, and oddly persuasive arguments that our pwBPD sometimes throw at us?

can you elaborate? is she pressuring you not to speak to your family?
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DaddyBear77
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« Reply #5 on: April 19, 2017, 04:57:14 PM »

can you elaborate? is she pressuring you not to speak to your family?

once removed - yes, that's the biggest issue.

In a nutshell, after a joint T session last week where I defended my family, my pwBPD asked me specifically if I had been speaking to them recently. I decided to answer honestly, and maintained that position for about 2 or 3 days. My pwBPD used very intense, emotional, draining pressure to get me to "side with her, and not with them." I gave in and agreed I would not talk to my family for at least 6 months, but in reality I'm not willing to do that to myself OR to my family.

There's another intense issue regarding our finances - my pwBPD is insisting that I take bankruptcy off the table as an option. I lied and said I would, but I am also unwilling to do that - I am keeping all things on the table in an effort to get relief and save the house / car / etc.
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« Reply #6 on: April 19, 2017, 05:01:05 PM »

we all have bad habits. we have to find the motivation in order to stop. what do you see as motivation?
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Notwendy
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« Reply #7 on: April 19, 2017, 05:20:17 PM »

Honestly, I think it is better to just give in than to set a boundary and then back down. This teaches her that your boundary means nothing and she can just up the ante to break you down.

The sad part about this is that, we taught my mother that doing this is to get her way. So, she is relentless until she gets what she wants. The sad part is that there could have been a different way- compromise, teamwork, but she learned one way to get what she wants. These are her relationship tools: bully, badger, threat.

I've watched this cycle countless times. Someone in the family may get the courage to say no, and she is relentless until that person backs down. I can't really speak for a marriage partner because, I don't live with her. It would be tough to not back down. I have a sibling who caves- that sibling can't stand up to her. I have to be understanding of this.

So, I hesitate to speak too much of my FOO as it isn't the appropriate section, but I am not asking for advice or a discussion. I'm mostly posting as someone who both grew up with this and took it into relationships. I do think many of us have done that.

But the constant saying no and caving is like giving in to a tantruming child. It teaches the child that the unwanted behavior works so the behavior persists.

There is another way to learn and that is life consequences. As parents, we aim to protect young children from serious ones but sometimes letting them face the consequences is the better way to learn. A child won't learn that he will be cold if we run out the door after him with his jacket. But if we let him realize it is cold, he will remember to get it.

Handling money is a tough one. Giving a child an allowance is a lesson. If he spends it all, then it is all gone. We undo the lesson if we give him more. If you can not say no to your wife's spending and she won't let you do anything to stop it and you can not hold on to your boundaries with this, then it becomes a constant losing battle between you. I don't know a solution, but the real world consequence is running out of money.

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Grey Kitty
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« Reply #8 on: April 19, 2017, 06:05:55 PM »

I've got two thoughts about enforcing difficult boundaries like this for you:

1. When you start enforcing a new boundary, or one that you've tried and backed down from before, you get an extinction burst from your wife.

That looks like her TURNING UP THE VOLUME AND PRESSURE on you to get you to back down. Because it has worked every time 'till now, she's been taught that to try this. She will do it every time... .and eventually you have to stand strong against it.

The thing is, WHEN you do stand strong, she will get past the extinction burst, and realize that you aren't giving in, and do something different. But it will be at least as bad as whatever it was that got you to back down this time.

This is just a bit more about the difficult situation you are in--not really a solution, I know. 

2. Pick your battles / pick which battle you want to fight first.

My recommendation is to start with what I will call verbal abuse (for lack of a better description) before you address boundaries with your FOO / bankruptcy, etc. I suggest this, because of what happens--as soon as you TRY to enforce another boundary, she jumps for those tools to batter you down. So you will have to deal with them sooner or later.

... .in the face of the kind of attacks, pleading, and oddly persuasive arguments that our pwBPD sometimes throw at us?

Work out what boundaries you can enforce to protect yourself from this behavior specifically.

Do you need a way to get out of the house, perhaps for the night?
Do you need a better way to end circular arguments?

Can you be more specific about what she does/says, and how it gets to you?
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DaddyBear77
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« Reply #9 on: April 19, 2017, 09:15:24 PM »

Can you be more specific about what she does/says, and how it gets to you?

Wow, this turned out to be a harder question than I thought it would be.

First off, she takes a very aggressive stance / approach. It always reminds me of the scariest parts of my mom. You can clearly see she's not stopping until she wins. And I immediately feel like a kid. That's the setup.

The content is mostly FOG.
Fear is the weakest - I can usually see through it. For example: "If you don't go NC with your FOO, I WILL divorce you."
Obligation and Guilt work together: "My uncle / cousin would have taken you aside and told you what a horrible husband you are if they ever knew this" or "YOU are responsible for putting us in debt like this, and all for what? So you could teach me a lesson? Just to try and force me back to work? Or to try and control me by taking away all the money? You are literally risking the roof over our head, playing games with the MORTGAGE!"

Does that paint a little clearer of a picture?
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Notwendy
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« Reply #10 on: April 20, 2017, 05:41:15 AM »

I think that the fear you describe and the reminder of your mother is a key to this. I speak of mine because the way I grew up also was a key to dealing with my relationship. We tend to choose partners who "match us" emotionally in some ways. While I didn't marry someone like my mother, the way my co-dependency, fear, and low self worth matched my H's traits resulted in some similar issues in my marriage. Dealing with my own fears and codependency was I believe my only hope for change. My H's behaviors worked for him. If they do, there is no motivation for change.

The threat of divorce is scary, but it also may be an empty threat. As long as it makes you give in- it works, whether she follows through or not. This is the staying board which means you choose not to leave. But everyone has free choice. Your wife can choose to stay or leave. You may not want her to leave, but she could choose to.

One idea is if she does threaten, to not react emotionally, but to say " I wish you wouldn't do that. I would be sad if you did, but I understand that you can make your own choices about this".

When she says you are a terrible husband, a response might be " I am sorry you feel this way but I understand that you are not happy with me" and leave it at that.

Puts the ball back in her court.

I found that these statements are often projections of the parts of the person they are ashamed of. My mother has not ever worked. I have a sibling who has struggles with employment. She constantly criticizes this sibling for the failure to earn a steady living, yet this sibling has worked many jobs. Another idea is that the person with BPD is in victim mode most of the time and that this perception affects how they see things. You may struggle with finances, but she sees this as you refusing to give her what she wants as if you are doing it on purpose.

But regardless of your wife, it is your fear and that you somehow buy into her reality that is a part of this.
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Grey Kitty
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« Reply #11 on: April 20, 2017, 11:23:05 PM »

Wow, this turned out to be a harder question than I thought it would be.

First off, she takes a very aggressive stance / approach. It always reminds me of the scariest parts of my mom. You can clearly see she's not stopping until she wins. And I immediately feel like a kid. That's the setup.

The content is mostly FOG.
Fear is the weakest - I can usually see through it. For example: "If you don't go NC with your FOO, I WILL divorce you."
Obligation and Guilt work together: "My uncle / cousin would have taken you aside and told you what a horrible husband you are if they ever knew this" or "YOU are responsible for putting us in debt like this, and all for what? So you could teach me a lesson? Just to try and force me back to work? Or to try and control me by taking away all the money? You are literally risking the roof over our head, playing games with the MORTGAGE!"

Does that paint a little clearer of a picture?

So do you believe these things when she's saying them?

And what happens when you try to leave or shut down the conversation when you start feeling uncomfortable, manipulated, or attacked?

(When I was dealing with this sort of stuff, I often put specific conversations, word for word either in my diary, or posted here, either to see what I could do differently, or just to have a record of it for my own sanity, since I would hear something completely different a day later.)
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DaddyBear77
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« Reply #12 on: April 21, 2017, 02:31:47 PM »

I just re-read the article on Emotional Blackmail: Fear, Obligation and Guilt (FOG)

Wow - I can't believe I missed this before:
1. Demand,
2. Resistance,
3. Pressure and Threats, and
4. Compliance



So do you believe these things when she's saying them?
Yes, sometimes I do. I try really hard to find some truth in what she's saying, so that maybe we can come together on common ground. But it often turns out that I go overboard, and end up agreeing with too much. I often regret this later on, but by then it's too late.

And what happens when you try to leave or shut down the conversation when you start feeling uncomfortable, manipulated, or attacked?
As you would expect, the pressure and threats just keep escalating. First, she'll say "Sure, just like you to leave in the middle of the argument instead of staying and dealing with the pain you've caused me." Then, she'll cry and sob, and every few minutes it seems like maybe she gets a little louder to make sure I hear her. Then, she'll text bomb. IF I don't respond, she'll start calling my phone over and over again. IF that doesn't work, she'll come find me.

You get the picture, and finally, so do I. It's pressure and threats - part 3 of the It Takes Two! transaction.

I'm trying to focus on the "Change Your Response, Change Your Life" section now to see if I can find the wisdom I need to get out of this cycle. I'm hopeful. This is hard.
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Grey Kitty
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« Reply #13 on: April 21, 2017, 08:31:38 PM »

I try really hard to find some truth in what she's saying, so that maybe we can come together on common ground. But it often turns out that I go overboard, and end up agreeing with too much. I often regret this later on, but by then it's too late.

Bluntly, trying to "find the truth in what she's saying" is toxic for you.

If you don't believe your own reality, if you don't believe what you are doing, what your own reasons are, you are lost. Try to find your own reality. And defend it for yourself, not for her. You don't need to attack her reality. (If you do, it is JADEing and invalidating her most likely)

Excerpt
As you would expect, the pressure and threats just keep escalating. First, she'll say "Sure, just like you to leave in the middle of the argument instead of staying and dealing with the pain you've caused me."

That is completely unreasonable and unfair.

1. You didn't cause her pain.
2. It isn't your job to take her pain away.
3. It SURE isn't your job to relieve her pain by being an emotional punching bag for her!

Excerpt
Then, she'll cry and sob, and every few minutes it seems like maybe she gets a little louder to make sure I hear her. Then, she'll text bomb. IF I don't respond, she'll start calling my phone over and over again. IF that doesn't work, she'll come find me.

You know what she will do. In order to get away from this stuff, you have to leave the house and shut your phone off or block her, both text and voice.

If you aren't willing to walk out the door, drive away, spend the night in a motel or on a friend's couch/guest bed, and shut off your phone, you know you will be pushed until you give in.
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