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Author Topic: Invalid validation over text message  (Read 445 times)
CycleBreaker123
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« on: April 20, 2017, 04:53:37 AM »

Much of my interactions with my BPD friend K are via text messaging, since we live a few hours apart.    She claims to get anxious over the telephone, and prefers the composed quality of a text exchange.   I have two big problems with text messaging (1) how easy it is to play "games" via text - i.e. enable controlling behavior, since either party can stop the flow of messages at any time, leaving the other person hanging.   She does this constantly, will just leave a text conversation mid sentence at times, often it seems she will put off her conversational vanishing act until a point occurs in the conversation where I am left "hanging" - where perhaps I asked a critical question where she knows the answer is somehow meaningful in the moment.   The other big problem with text messaging is how easy it is to misconstrue intention - where lack of tone and body language leaves us only with the raw words, which are so easily misinterpreted.  There have been many times where she has misinterpreted something I have said via text, causing her to become needlessly upset.   For example, there was one time when she had been out of touch for about a week or so, and when we finally connected over text, I asked her sort of joking  "soo, did you lose my number?".   All she saw were the partial phrase "lose my number", thought I was requesting that she not be in touch with me any more, that I was abandoning her, and proceeded to go stone silent for the following two months.   Finally, we reconnected and I asked her to look back at the original text, and she just laughed it off "whoops, guess I should have read the whole sentence!"   All of which brings up the real ADVANTAGE of text messaging - the great thing about text or email is that a perfect record of the interaction is created, there is no way to gaslight a text or email exchange, as all one needs to do is look back at the actual conversation that occurred - the words that were spoken are there forever -  thus there can be no "he said/she said" sort of deflections.   It's like imagine how useful it would be to have a videotape recording of all of a couple's interactions, available for viewing together at any point in the future, at the click of a button.   Such is basically what text messaging allows, perfect recall of what was said. 

All that said, there seems to be a big problem using text messages to try to "validate" - as when she is in a dark place, and she is splitting me black, then there is just nothing in the world that I can say in any attempt to validate her, etc.   The most common reaction is that anything I say that sounds even remotely "validating" occurs to her as "manipulative" - and accusations of attempting to "manipulate" can mean my using any form of humor within a message, saying something positive as an attempt to cheer her up, remind her of some previous situation where she was in a better mood, etc.   I've been accused of being "manipulative" for using an exclamation mark at the end of a sentence.     Or she simply decides to be contrary to the point of ridiculous - my favorite example being the following exchange -

K:   "wow, my house is so hot !"
Me:  "I can deal with it being cold, but I can't stand it when it's to hot"
K:   "I didn't say I was hot"
Me:  "huh?   you mentioned how hot you were in the previous message?"
K:   "see, once again you just refuse to listen to ANYTHING I say.   I said my HOUSE was hot, not that I was hot, I'm actually quite comfortable"

It does seem like once I'm split black, it's basically pointless to try to validate any complaint or upset she has - basically it feels like what she is REALLY upset about has absolutely nothing to do with what she claims to be upset about, so addressing her "complaints" are just a pointless exercise.    The worst thing is if I say something like "wow, you seem like you are pretty upset" to which she will typically vehemently deny being upset.   In such times, she seems to basically refuse to agree that 2+2 = 4.

So in these sorts of situations, where your BPD partner has just decided to be constantly contrary, or has split you black for the time being, is there ANY form of validation that is helpful?   I haven't found anything, certainly not over text message where the opportunity to jump all over the ambiguous meaning of any given word or phrase can give a convenient excuse to stay angry.   
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Tattered Heart
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« Reply #1 on: April 20, 2017, 08:14:29 AM »

I'm learning that text message is not a good resource for communicating with someone with BPD. They need to be able to hear tone of voice or see facial expressions. It is way to easy to misuderstand what someone is saying between not having audio context and typos. 

I've learned that when I do communicate with my H via text I have to be precise in what I say. I cannot make jokes or use sarcasm.  I need to be careful in how I even ask for clarification. I also must read what he says exactly as it is typed and not add my own interpretation into it or I end up in the same type of argument that you found yourself in over a hot house vs. a hot person.

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onelittleladybug
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« Reply #2 on: April 20, 2017, 08:57:43 AM »

I also must read what he says exactly as it is typed and not add my own interpretation into it or I end up in the same type of argument that you found yourself in over a hot house vs. a hot person.

Hi Tattered Heart. Im new to all of this so please be patient with me... .My r/s with my pwBPD is also a case of a romantic connection turning into friendship (although still very complicated) and the conversation quoted sounds VERY familiar to me.

The problem I have is this: How did IT (the house) turn into HER? As I see it it was she that is interpreting as he specifially says:

Me:  "I can deal with it being cold, but I can't stand it when it's to hot"

K:   "I didn't say I was hot"

Well neither did he! I dont mean to nitpick or get too analytical about it but I feel like if I understand this part I can understand better what I can validate in the moment when things like this come up or however to deal with it.

Is it that she feels rejected because he wouldnt like being at her house? Or is it that she felt that someone else she interacted with that day wasnt listening and she is taking it out on him because its safe he wont leave her? Something else?
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flourdust
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« Reply #3 on: April 20, 2017, 09:06:32 AM »

Hey, Tyler -- this seems to be a very common communications problem with pwBPD. Certainly, my wife would often blow up and claim that the problem was my word choice, facial expression, interpretation of her word choice, etc.

I never found a way to prevent these reactions, and there was no way to defuse them that I was comfortable with. (She would have appreciated abject apologies followed by remorseful attention to a 45 minute lecture on my insensitivities.)

I don't know that I can recommend anything other than disengaging. Consider it a warning sign that your friend is triggered and is essentially a fight looking for an excuse to happen. Don't be present for the fight. She may blow up your phone with nasty texts as a result, but it's likely that if you do engage, you'll still get those nasty texts.
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isilme
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« Reply #4 on: April 20, 2017, 09:49:41 AM »

Excerpt
The problem I have is this: How did IT (the house) turn into HER?

^^ Simple.  All thoughts in her head are about her anyway, so all communication is about her.  Her brain twisted it and she probably ias not even aware she did it (and would never admit it).

Texts, or simply non-face-to-face communication can be especially hard to use.  H is annoyed by texts most of the time - he hates typing on phones.  He will use a messenger from a PC, and I try to watch how I communicate, with plenty of emojis to help account for the lack of tone of voice and facial expressions.

Once you realize you have been painted black, there is no explaining that will work, so just pull back from the conversation until later. 

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Tattered Heart
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« Reply #5 on: April 20, 2017, 11:22:15 AM »

I agree with isilme. There really is not a way to try to understand what could go wrong in those conversations  because one day the difference between "it" and "I" could not matter and the next day it could. You'll find yourself making yourself crazy and walking on egg shells if you try to figure out what particular wording will send them spiraling and what won't. There is not a rhyme or reason to it except how their interpretation at that moment takes things.

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isilme
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« Reply #6 on: April 20, 2017, 02:51:10 PM »

I think in hindsight you might be able to spot a pattern of what may mean dysregulation was on the horizon, but even then it's usually in hindsight.

I know H will be prone to dysregulation at certain times of year or when certain factors align.  But that does not mean I can "make" him not dysregulate by anything I do - I can never know what casual comment will be misheard, misread, or misinterpreted to mean I was saying, doing, thinking, or feeling something he believes is invalidating, wrong, or otherwise makes him angry.  Look at my silly broccoli incident.  I cooked a whole bag of frozen broccoli one night, and it made him so mad he threw it at me.  In hindsight, his low blood sugar combined with how angry he gets at his mother's habit of eating salads so huge it defeats the purpose of eating a salad was part of the issue - he was mad at her, but since she wasn't there and I was, guess who got the food thrown at them and yelled at for the better part of an hour (and this happened two separate times)? 

Instead of trying to guess what caused it when it's this incomprehensible (instead of a situation where say you know they hate Christmas movies and you decided to watch a Christmas movie), all you can do is back off, pretty much ignore it if possible, and wait for the next conversation or interaction.
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CycleBreaker123
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« Reply #7 on: April 21, 2017, 04:40:56 AM »


Instead of trying to guess what caused it when it's this incomprehensible (instead of a situation where say you know they hate Christmas movies and you decided to watch a Christmas movie), all you can do is back off, pretty much ignore it if possible, and wait for the next conversation or interaction.

So what  I'm hearing on this thread is there is nothing one can say or do once you have been split Black?   Any attempt to mollify will just cause more and more distance?  If such is really the case, then what is all this talk about "validation" and how important it is that we find SOMETHING that we agree with, and try to align on such a thing?  Because I've never been able to validate ANYTHING once she has split me Black.   So is the "validation" technique used in some other situation?   
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Notwendy
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« Reply #8 on: April 21, 2017, 07:21:48 AM »

Tyler- it is understandable to want to learn how to manage a relationship with a pwBPD - of any kind- friend, partner, family member. It seems that some effort and drama is involved. At some point though- for me, I take into consideration all my relationships, how involved I want to be, and the impact of the relationship.

Did I read on one of your posts that you are married? I'm not judging the friendship. I do thing it is OK for married people to have friends of both genders. But I also think we need to consider the time, energy, and drama along with our own boundaries. I'm not talking about cheating- you are not doing that. But if I was texting frequently with a male friend who I was once attracted to, and emotionally invested in his issues- at a certain point I think it would take away from my being emotionally available to my marriage.

Relationships that involve ups and downs, drama, can be enticing- other relationships can feel boring in comparison. I'm not suggesting you end your friendship but you may want to put a personal limit on how much you wish to be involved if you are married.

I think many of us would want to stay in touch with friends and would also want to help a friend in need, but I think we can consider being cautious about the kind of drama in text messages like this.
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Tattered Heart
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« Reply #9 on: April 21, 2017, 08:05:22 AM »

So what  I'm hearing on this thread is there is nothing one can say or do once you have been split Black?   Any attempt to mollify will just cause more and more distance?  If such is really the case, then what is all this talk about "validation" and how important it is that we find SOMETHING that we agree with, and try to align on such a thing?  Because I've never been able to validate ANYTHING once she has split me Black.   So is the "validation" technique used in some other situation?   

What I've noticed is that once my H gets to the point of splitting me black, then I have failed to validate earlier in the conversation. Once he's painted me black he has to work through it and get over it himself.
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flourdust
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« Reply #10 on: April 21, 2017, 08:25:29 AM »

So what  I'm hearing on this thread is there is nothing one can say or do once you have been split Black?   Any attempt to mollify will just cause more and more distance?  If such is really the case, then what is all this talk about "validation" and how important it is that we find SOMETHING that we agree with, and try to align on such a thing?  Because I've never been able to validate ANYTHING once she has split me Black.   So is the "validation" technique used in some other situation?   

YMMV. Some people are better at receiving validation; others are better at providing it.

What I've learned from my own experience and from what other members have reported is that validation is not an instant treatment for managing a conflict, and it's not often effective when used essentially as deflection if you're the target of abuse.

Validation seems to be most often effective when used as a long-term communication strategy -- supportive and encouraging statements offered up not necessarily in response to a problem but just as part of regular interaction. This may be helpful in building up some resilience in your pwBPD, so that s/he is less likely to have severe dysregulation.

But as I said, YMMV. I'm not the best person to give validation advice, as I never felt I was good at using it the right way at the right time.
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CycleBreaker123
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« Reply #11 on: April 22, 2017, 02:19:48 AM »

Tyler- it is understandable to want to learn how to manage a relationship with a pwBPD - of any kind- friend, partner, family member. It seems that some effort and drama is involved. At some point though- for me, I take into consideration all my relationships, how involved I want to be, and the impact of the relationship.

Did I read on one of your posts that you are married? I'm not judging the friendship. I do thing it is OK for married people to have friends of both genders. But I also think we need to consider the time, energy, and drama along with our own boundaries. I'm not talking about cheating- you are not doing that. But if I was texting frequently with a male friend who I was once attracted to, and emotionally invested in his issues- at a certain point I think it would take away from my being emotionally available to my marriage.

Relationships that involve ups and downs, drama, can be enticing- other relationships can feel boring in comparison. I'm not suggesting you end your friendship but you may want to put a personal limit on how much you wish to be involved if you are married.

I think many of us would want to stay in touch with friends and would also want to help a friend in need, but I think we can consider being cautious about the kind of drama in text messages like this.

yeah, you make a very good point.   A casual friendship should not involve a great deal of "work" to maintain, and I guess I need to be reminded of such.   K has indeed become a lot of "work" and near constant drama.  There is an actual THING that she has done, that I need her to undo, and such is the real reason I posted here in the first place, I will write a new post addressing this.   Up until now, everything I have posted is merely "backstory".   But I think what it comes down to is I decided awhile ago that given I'm sort of the "grownup", and unlike a large majority of members here, I didn't have nearly the type of "high stakes" invested with K, not my spouse, no shared home, no wacky inlaws, etc ... .  it should be easy enough for me to deal with her bad behavior at times, which basically always boils down to her absurdly over-the-top meanness that comes out of her mouth at times when I've been split Black.   There is "angry" with most any person, there is "upset", there can even be "mean" - but with K, the meanness is just SOO inappropriate given the actual "offense" that she called out - so exaggerated - so super villain "mean", in those moments she sort of occurs to me as a cartoon character version of what a "mean" person sounds like.  So venomous, so purely HATEFUL, that it's almost laughable, like WHO can actually say such things?    But as time is going on, it's gotten to the point that at ANY moment, she can morph into the Queen of Hearts from Alice In Wonderland, impossible for me to take seriously, and just UGLY and UNPLEASANT.  As I learned more and more about BPD, I made a promise to myself not to abandon this person, it's really not a big loss if pals take 2, 3, 4 month "breaks", and I don't take the meanness very seriously since it's quite obvious that she doesn't "mean" the horribly mean things she says sometimes, etc.  Or more accurately, she may actually be speaking her mind at the moment of maximum-meanness, but I'm guessing five minutes later she is mortified that she actually said such a thing, but now her pride makes it impossible to "retract", as such would be losing a POINT in the ongoing tennis match going on inside of her head.   Thus she is forced to keep the "mean-mask" securely strapped to her face.   She has even admitted such to me, "pay no attention to the horrible things I say if I get upset, I don't even know where that comes from".   

 But now it's to the point where it's become real WORK just to keep things afloat, waaaaay more than is appropriate given the circumstances.   So I came to this forum looking for a "quick fix" to a problem that I'll get into in a separate thread.   I appreciate your candid observations.  Yes, I'm at the point where I realize I need to just give this up, even though I told myself I wouldn't give up on her, but as time went on, her "loyalty tests" have becoming more and more difficult for me to receive a passing grade. 
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Notwendy
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« Reply #12 on: April 22, 2017, 06:26:37 AM »

I think it's good to learn about BPD no matter what the relationship- -as we can gain useful relationship skills in the process. I don't think there is a quick fix though- more like a process of learning about them and us.

I grew up with good friends of both genders but as my peer group got married I found that there was a shift in priorities and boundaries. When children came along, there was another transition. Maintaining a friendship requires boundaries on both our parts - respect for the marriage and the spouse. Should either one of us not do this - the friendship would probably not be sustainable.

i also have to be aware of my own tendencies to want to help or get involved in another persons issues. Sometimes we do this to an extent that we don't face our own. Marriage takes an investment of time and energy too. I don't believe it is necessary or even good to give up friends or interests just because we are married but we also have to invest in the marriage.  Although you may not have wanted to abandon your friendship with K, it may also come down to a decision- is this good for you and your marriage to continue it?
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