Who's the pwBPD? Do the lines blur after the years?

[babyoctopus]

 
I'm wondering if anyone else notices this. Sometimes, I am reading a post and I think: Well, heck I did that. But I'm the non. Right?
 
For example, some of the posts regarding intimacy. I admit, the last 4 years of marriage to pwBPD elements of NPD were sheer hell, and 99% of the time, I did NOT want sex.  I had fallen out of love but didn't communicate that. Unfair, I know. I would make excuses, put it off as long as possible, and then finally just give in. He knew I wasn't into it.

I read things about the BPDw being frigid. cold and distant, and heck yes I was all of those things. I was numb from years of emotional abuse.  In some way I had to protect myself so I distanced myself on purpose.

The other one that gives me pause is when I read: "She would always complain I was controlling". I did that too, because he was!

The manipulation that he was a master at was the provoking. He would say something he knew would get a rise out of me, just under his breath, but he knew I would hear it. I would lose my temper- just go off. Finally I learned to completely ignore his baiting, but it was so difficult. I felt so defeated when I lost control.

Then there was the push-pull dynamic of the relationship. When I felt particularly powerful, positive, and in control, he seemed down and depressed. When I was down, ill, or stressed (and showed it), he seems to gain strength- almost a particular glee and spring in the step. I see that now as we are divorcing, he is motivated like never before, in a way he NEVER was when it was for me and the kids.  Irritates me to no end.

[happendtome]

I dont know, are you BPD? Well anyway, dont be so hard for yourself. There is a reason why they say that its crazy making.
If you live long enough with anyone you certainly adopt something from them. Unfortunately, being with BPD-s we pick up negative manners/behavior.

[once removed]

these were dysfunctional relationships in which we played a role.

not a role in the sense of heroes or villains, fault or blame. our partners brought dysfunction into the relationship. we brought dysfunction into the relationship. that dysfunction mixed, amplified. coldly and clinically, it was a dysfunctional interaction that we were a part of.

its important that we own that and not cast what was ours on our partners. our partners were difficult people, and thats a given. rather than reassessing and/or exiting the relationship, we remained, and responded with dysfunctional, self or relationship defeating, often even immature behavior.

its important because we werent necessarily aware of all of this before, and now we can be, and we can make better choices going forward, toward healthier relationships.

what steps are you taking in that direction, babyoctopus? are you seeing a therapist?

[roberto516]

Trust me. Been there and done that my friend I read a book that changed my view on this called "psychopath free". It talks specifically about this. All I know is before the relationship I was calm, cool, and absolutely in love with the natural beauty of this world. I used to sit and listen to birds chIrving and be happier than anyone else.

The first time I tried to talk to her about my feelings and I was shot down all of that changed. And when I allowed myself to be manipuated, isolated, sacrificed with no compromises or empathy in return I lost who I was. And it made me crazy. I had learned to speak about my feelings to feel better. I couldn't wit her. And I didnt want to talk with others because I didn't thin it was fair to her. Crazy right?  Anyway. I can relate.

[babyoctopus]

Thanks for the responses. Haven't seen a T in awhile, but plan to resume as soon as I get some $$.

I am always searching for answers. I want to be better for my kids. I want the rest of my life to not be such a struggle.  I also still care about the pwBPD father of my children and do want him to be happy too.

I just want to understand, but I guess somethings are just a mystery.

[Pretty Woman]

I'm with you on this, Oct.

I became obsessed with reading about BPD once I figured out what it was. I started to see some of the symptoms a reflection of my own experiences and I panicked.

I even had a therapist refuse to see me until I saw a psychologist because she suspected I was BPD because I knew so much about it. Imagine going to a therapist for help and they are accusing you of being the problem. This was when I was ruminating a lot after the breakup.

Suffice it to say I did not go further with this therapist and am in a completely different space now. I still think of my ex but I'm not obsessed over it, I also realize I was manipulative in some ways to try to keep her when she wasn't good for me.

I'm sure some of us have BPD traits as like attracts like. That doesn't make anyone a full blown BPD. We are all on these boards looking for answers. People in denial of their disorder would not be here, they would be blaming everyone except themselves.

[Lucky Jim]

Hey baby octopus, I find it normal to pick up some of the "bad behavior" of the pwBPD (a/k/a "fleas", yet that doesn't mean that you have BPD.  Until I realized that it was a flawed strategy, I fought "fire with fire" in my marriage and determined to give back just as much abuse as I received, if not more.  As a result, I ended up mimicking BPD behavior, even though I don't suffer from BPD.  Plus, if you had BPD, I doubt you would be talking about it here, because it's highly unlikely for a pwBPD to admit to having a personality disorder, due to their black and white thinking.

LuckyJim

[Pretty Woman]

Plus, if you had BPD, I doubt you would be talking about it here, because it's highly unlikely for a pwBPD to admit to having a personality disorder, due to their black and white thinking.

Lucky Jim brings up and interesting point and something I have thought about when I'm in those moments where I start to contemplate maybe I'm the "crazy one".

If you look up "BPD Fleas" you may find yourself relating to that more. I know I was very hypersensitive after my discard and I definitely had traits from being in close proximity to her for so long.

[once removed]

while its true that behavior of others may rub off on us (ive noticed with certain friends ill laugh at things i otherwise might not) i think the "fleas" label really misses the point and offloads our responsibility.

we dont catch personality traits from others any more than youll catch schizophrenia from spending a night in a mental institution. additionally, while denial and a victim mentality are themes of BPD (if you will) its an urban legend that people with BPD lack self awareness or introspection, or the ability to accept they have a disorder. we have members here with disordered traits, or more.

our behavior and reactions are about us here. if we have these unhealthy behaviors, as weve deemed them, its in our interest to address them and what we can do about them, and not cast them off onto our partners.

[Lucky Jim]

Hey once removed, Agree, we all have to take responsibility for our own behavior and I'm not condoning bad behavior by attributing it to "fleas," which may be a misnomer, as you suggest.  Nevertheless, the behavior of others tends to rub off on us, as you note.  Of course you can't catch BPD!  Yet many of us have probably fought "fire with fire," before realizing that it is a fruitless strategy.  I'm not proud of some of my behavior, though I would also submit that anyone under highly stressful conditions can be driven to actions which they later deem regrettable.  LJ

[Duped 1]

I definitely acted more like her over time. I remember saying to her: "look I'm even starting to fight dirty like you now at times".

In regard to self awareness she said several times she couldn't see her part in regard to all of the fighting. The first few times she said it I thought she was just lying but over time I think she truly believed it. This was a very abusive, rude person so I don't know how she couldn't see it. Any thoughts here? Was she just lying so she wouldn't have to admit to her horrible behavior? When I finally opened up to my T about sine if the things she said her comment was: "that's borderline domestic violence" as she felt some of it was so severe. She had moments of clarity when she could she some of it but it was rare. The default was that I was the problem and she was fault free.

[once removed]

Any thoughts here?

its fair to say that self awareness is an obstacle for people with BPD, although thats going to apply in different ways, and to different degrees for each person. my ex was very self aware in lots of ways, not so much in others. for at least the first half of our relationship, she took on the responsibility and blame for her own behavior. she didnt have the tools to change it, and i didnt have the tools to adapt.

in your specific situation, it may be that the behavior she was displaying was an environment she grew up in, and thus became normal to her. hard to say, as i dont know her.

the point im trying to make is two fold:

1. its an urban legend that a person with BPD is incapable of admitting or accepting they have a disorder. there are members here whom (against advice) have shared with their partners or exes that they believe they have a disorder, or hinted at it, and found their exes, at least initially, to be quite open to it.

2. over half of the partners of pwBPD have a personality disorder themselves. thats a sobering number. even more have traits. for some context, most of the exes on this board are not clinically BPD, but have traits/behaviors. likewise, most of us here do not have a clinical personality disorder, but many of us have traits/behaviors, or other obstacles like cognitive distortions associated with depression, substance abuse, abusive or traumatic childhoods, codependency, etc.

many members, upon learning about BPD have thought "that sounds like me". healthy? if not, then what we should do about it becomes the question. if we tell ourselves or others that this level of introspection indicates they dont have BPD, or that their reactions were only a result of being in proximity to another person, its not only untrue, it doesnt serve us.

lets put aside the labels for the moment; our relationships have ended, and at least once we have grieved, this is about us now. our issues, our struggles, our maladaptive coping mechanisms, our immaturity (or if you prefer, learning the stuff we didnt know).

going back to the OP, why is this step important?

1. it will help you better understand how your relationship broke down, and give you a sense of resolve in your grief.
2. it will lead you toward healthier relationships in the future.

[Duped 1]

its an urban legend that a person with BPD is incapable of admitting or accepting they have a disorder. there are members here whom (against advice) have shared with their partners or exes that they believe they have a disorder, or hinted at it, and found their exes, at least initially, to be quite open to it.

Yes they are all individuals. It clearly appeared that mine had almost zero self awareness. There was quite a double standard as she could say and do things that were fine for her but If I did the same, I was a monster. She genuinely appeared to not have much self awareness. She blamed others for everything.

I have read stories on here where some definitely do have self awareness and thought to myself many times that I wish she would have as then we would have had something to work with. She wouldn't own any of her poor behavior. Sad

[vortex of confusion]

When I found this site, the labels and the information available was very, very helpful. Now, as time has progressed, I don't find the labels to be helpful at all. The labels helped me find the tools that I needed to make a change. Beyond that, I think the labels are often times used as a weapon to dismiss the other person. I have done it. It was a lot easier to say that ex has <fill in the blank> so I don't have to do anything.

It is wrong. It doesn't matter who has a disorder or BPD traits or something else. What matters is that the relationship was toxic and it stopped working for ME. Some people are able to be in a toxic relationship and thrive or be happy. I look at my mother and see that she and my dad are in a very toxic relationship and have been for years. It seems to work for them as they will be celebrating 50 years of marriage next year. That level of toxicity does NOT work for me and I don't want any part of it.

For some reason, I remember some kind of witticism about how most people have some kind of quirk or dysfunction or idiosyncrasy and the key to a successful relationship is to find somebody whose dysfunction works well with yours. Ex and I are both dysfunction. His dysfunction doesn't play well with mine. I am a caretaker by nature. That is who I am. I need somebody that can reciprocate that and won't take advantage of it.

[FantasticMsDox]

I wonder this myself. It's unnerving to reflect on my own behavior and see that I have done the idealization/devaluation, although I can't tell if it's something I picked up from my BPDx as a way to defend myself from her. I went NC w/ her yesterday, and I feel like I had to "paint her black" in order to move on. Like she wasn't being the "better person" I want her to be, the better person that I think and believe she can be, and by her not behaving in the "ideal" way that I want, I have to drop her like a bad habit.

Maybe it's possible that we pick up certain traits from these people in order to have a defense against their behavior and behaviors that seems reminiscent of them?

[roberto516]

I went NC w/ her yesterday, and I feel like I had to "paint her black" in order to move on. Like she wasn't being the "better person" I want her to be, the better person that I think and believe she can be, and by her not behaving in the "ideal" way that I want, I have to drop her like a bad habit.

It's an addiction. The love bombing rewires our brains. Just like a heroin addict wishes they can just use on the weekends or "just this once". Or "why can't it be like the old days when I could use and still manage my life". It never ends well. So they go to 12 step meetings and are reminded what they will lose by picking up, and what they have gained by being sober. They pain the addiction black so that it never tempts them again. Which is what we do here. I always humorously suggested that this forum should create it's own 12 steps. Just take the 12 steps of AA and tweak it a little. Because the 12 steps for sobriety will benefit all of us here. Taking inventory, acceptance, etc, etc.

And now I've rambled. But your comment made me think of all this.

[vortex of confusion]

Maybe it's possible that we pick up certain traits from these people in order to have a defense against their behavior and behaviors that seems reminiscent of them?

Is it that we pick up traits or are some of these traits part of human nature? I have often wondered that because it seems like some of the things that are attributed to BPD are pretty common behaviors in a failing relationship. A lot of times, change is preceded by chaos and uncertainty, especially when there are two people involved that want/need different things.

How can a person be in a relationship with somebody if there isn't a little bit of idealizing? If the person isn't special to you, why be in a relationship with them?

I can guarantee that I felt like I had to focus on the negatives of my ex to keep from going back. It was a defense mechanism. Focusing on the negative didn't mean that I erased the good or forgot it. I pushed it aside for a while so I could detach and stop the magical thinking. I had to focus on the bad so that I could incorporate it into the big picture.

I don't think it is helpful to refer to them as "these people". They are just as human as the rest of us. I know it is difficult to have compassion and see that while trying to walk away and detach. It is a lot easier to paint them black and put the blame on them.

[Duped 1]

How can a person be in a relationship with somebody if there isn't a little bit of idealizing? If the person isn't special to you, why be in a relationship with them?

I think it's the extreme nature of the idolization from the pwBPD that is the differentiator. Saying things like: "you're exactly what I've been waiting for for 43 years"."You're clearly my soulmate" God has given you to me and wanted me to wait for your because you're the one, etc."

There are many more but I had never heard such extreme statements over and over in the love bombing stage and she wanted to be with me every second and start planning our future moving in together, looking at rings, etc. within a couple months of starting the RS... .

[once removed]

They pain the addiction black so that it never tempts them again. Which is what we do here.

ego defenses like splitting (painting black) are not encouraged here.

more on the subject here:Painting your ex black - healthy or unhealthy?

if this relationship was an addiction, we want to come to terms with the nature of our relationship with the addiction. what drew us to it, where we were vulnerable, why we continued to "use" after it became destructive. if the relationship was an addiction, better to be the addict that learns to better function in society and any social setting as opposed to running from any sight of the "drug". we learn little if we simply practice avoidance.

as for recovering, we do have steps! theyre directly to the right of the board within the lessons and the five stages of detachment

... .a way to defend myself from her. I went NC w/ her yesterday, and I feel like I had to "paint her black" in order to move on.

most of us responded to immature behaviors and maladaptive coping mechanisms with our own immature behaviors and maladaptive coping skills, whether we knew it at the time, or not. the goal is really to be more mature (and emotionally mature) in our breakup and its aftermath than we were in the relationship, and learn better coping skills. its not easily done. identifying our maladaptive coping skills as youve done is a good start.

[FantasticMsDox]

My apologies. I didn't mean "these people" as a way to dehumanize. I shouldn't use such broad strokes.

ego defenses like splitting (painting black) are not encouraged here.

more on the subject here:Painting your ex black - healthy or unhealthy?

if this relationship was an addiction, we want to come to terms with the nature of our relationship with the addiction. what drew us to it, where we were vulnerable, why we continued to "use" after it became destructive. if the relationship was an addiction, better to be the addict that learns to better function in society and any social setting as opposed to running from any sight of the "drug". we learn little if we simply practice avoidance.

as for recovering, we do have steps! theyre directly to the right of the board within the lessons and the five stages of detachment

most of us responded to immature behaviors and maladaptive coping mechanisms with our own immature behaviors and maladaptive coping skills, whether we knew it at the time, or not. the goal is really to be more mature (and emotionally mature) in our breakup and its aftermath than we were in the relationship, and learn better coping skills. its not easily done. identifying our maladaptive coping skills as youve done is a good start.

Thank you OnceRemoved, that really puts it into perspective. It's not easily done at all.

In fact, I find that it's eaiser to put the blame of all my hurt into my x as opposed to taking responsibility for my part in... .hurting me... .so to speak. My part being the lack of healthy boundaries and coping skills. Its hard but, it's a goal worth achieving.

[Infern0]

The lines never blur as to who was BPD, however i am a lot more aware of the fact i had heavy CPTSD before and during, which has thankfully pretty much gone now.

I had a lot of poor behavior that most certainly made things worse.

Its just part of the healing process, figuring this stuff out.

[LonelyChild]

There's a reason there are no self-proclaimed BPDs on this board. It's worth thinking about.

[Infern0]

There's a reason there are no self-proclaimed BPDs on this board. It's worth thinking about.

BPD or not there are a LOT of people on this site who need to take a closer look at themselves.

[Dutched]

There's a reason there are no self-proclaimed BPDs on this board. It's worth thinking about.

BPD or not there are a LOT of people on this site who need to take a closer look at themselves.

Takes a lot of time. First recovering from a destructive (not healthy) relationship
Finding explanations, answers and having the emotional mind to understand the rational mind

At a moment that pain and grieve (that bond) is merely gone.

Then it takes a lot of courage to dig deep into one selves.
Courage to peel an onion layer by layer off until one gets to their own core.
And as most experience with an onion, it irritates the eyes, pain and tears are the result.

Requires some effort to peel every layer off, more pain, more tears, more being confronted with one self.
An uncertain, so frightening, outcome to be confronted with that core.

There is a positive note too.
None of the exes ever thought something was wrong with them, no self reflection at all
Over here, sanity is questioned, normality is questioned.
Over here, at least some layers of that onion are peeled off by most.

[babyoctopus]

these were dysfunctional relationships in which we played a role.
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Yes, I believe that nails it. Any person not prone to co-dependency would have left him years ago, at the start of the abuse, but here I was trying to fix things and hoping the cycle would end.

Yes, "Nons" (and now after reading this I do believe I am firmly the "Non" go through hell because we are ever optimistic that things will "go back to how it was" if we just find a solution. That's the thing too-many of these relationships morph from something amazing to emotional /verbal abuse which can be very insidious. Especially when coupled with the gaslighting.

So although I agree Nons play a part in the dysfunction, I think we must recognize at the end of the day we are being abused. The pwBPD can be extremely manipulative, cunning, and cruel. Nons can be empathetic to a fault , self-doubting and therefore easy targets. We need to identify who's who so we can save ourselves. That's not blame, that's self survival.

For me, I have days where I pity my pwBPD and that's hard. I wonder if he'll ever get to a place where he's self aware enough to get effective mental help. He's alienated almost everyone in his life. He's losing me. I've been there for 23 years, I just can't do it anymore. Does that make be a bad partner- because: I didn't stay? I didn't try hard enough? I didn't stop my part in the dysfunction soon enough? I may never know the answers to those questions, but now its time for me to stop ruminating and getting on with my life. For the first time in a long time I will make my own decisions about friendships, family, what to wear, how to live. Scared but excited.

Hang in there, y'all, and thank you for all the wonderful insightful responses. This board always inspires me to be better and to stay strong.