Unwillingness to cooperate on financial issues due to lack of trust

[Dragon72]

I am 45, married to uBPw 47, with a son, 3.
I am the only earner in the household and I do a day job (school teacher) plus after hours work (private lessons) to provide income for my family. I work approx. 10-12 hours per day Monday-Friday. My wife is a SAHM, and our son goes to Kindergarten 20 hours per week.  She has recently employed a cleaner 1 day a week to help with the housework in our small 2 bedroom house.

She recently persuaded me to buy a new car, and 25% of my take-home pay goes on its loan repayments which will last 4 years.  This has made it difficult to make ends meet.

My wife has major trust issues and is convinced that I am secretly taking money from the family.  So, to show that I am not, I created a spreadsheet that details all the incoming funds and outgoing payments that I make. I catalog even the smallest thing I spend money on, like a bottle of water or a parking lot fee. The idea is to be totally transparent, so that, if I have to tell her whether we can or cannot afford something I can show her the numbers to back it up.

The problem is, that whenever the topic of money comes up, no matter how much I validate her fears, the red mist descends and she becomes totally uncooperative.  She refuses even to look at the spreadsheet, saying that I am a liar and that I have probably manipulated the spreadsheet.  She’s convinced that there’s more money than there is and I need her to actually realise the reality of our situation.

She is also very vague, when questioned, about where the money I give her (50% of my take-home pay) goes.

I have secretly recorded 2 conversations we have had where I have very calmly invited her to look over the family finances in my spreadsheet and where she has hysterically refused, explicitly saying doesn’t trust me and accusing me of doctoring the numbers.  I haven’t done anything with the recordings - just saved them just in case.

We are ending each month with a loss and I need her cooperation to stop that.

I am considering enlisting the help of the boyfriend of one of her family members who is an accountant, not only to “legitimise” my book-keeping, but also to give advice on where to reduce losses (which will probably have to come out of what I give to my wife).  Maybe coming from an independent angle (and one with ties to her family whom she trusts) might make a difference.  Anything I try to say to her falls on deaf ears.

What do you suggest when lack of trust is so bad that cooperation is withdrawn?

[flourdust]

I hope you can see that the desire to provide even more information is a form of JADEing? It's clear from your description that the problem isn't insufficient transparency on your part; it's her issues with trust and anxiety.

You also have some growing financial problems, and some of your family spending habits look questionable to me. Why are you giving your wife 50% of your take-home pay? Is she covering the bills? If 25% of your pay is going to the auto loan, then what is left after you pay the rent/mortgage and utilities?

You probably need to do some trimming of your expenditures. You mentioned the house cleaner, so that's obviously one that you're thinking about.

If you and your wife can't come to agreement on a budget and you are living beyond your means, you're going to have to be the adult and enforce a budget. Since you control all the income, you have that ability.

I noticed you posted this in the Conflicted/Deciding board, yet this seems (on the surface) to be more like an Improving topic. Where are you in your thoughts about this relationship? How does the money factor into that?

[Dragon72]

I guess it is JADEing, but it's stuff that she needs to know and understand for the sake of the family!

You're absolutely right that I want to do some trimming, especially of the 50% that my wife asks for.  But unless I can have a decent discussion with her about how much she needs and we need to spend, I can't make any progress with this.

To be fair to her, the house cleaner comes out of "her" money.  (Where the rest of the money goes is answered only vaguely).  Whenever I try to suggest that we should try to do without a cleaner, she plays the victim role, complaining of being kept in slavery. 

The last time I suggested that she should be able to manage to keep such a small house in order with her not working, me helping with cooking, ironing, parenting and cleaning and with our son out of the house 20 hours per week, I got shouted at and stonewalled for a week.  And yes, I did take pains to validate her hard work, efforts with her housework/parenting.

Maybe I should be in the Improving section, but it's hard to feel that way when I have a wife who won't spend time with me, won't talk to me except to tell me to mop the floor and take down the laundry, won't sleep in the same room (you may have read elsewhere that she spends her evenings and nights with our 3 year old son in his bed) and who won't work with me for the benefit of the family. 

Why exactly are we married? 

That's why I'm posting this in the Conflicted section.

[Dragon72]

There's also another part of me that wants to be as transparent and open as possible, even with 3rd parties, so that if push comes to shove, I can have evidence and witnesses in a court of law.

Her mistrust, anxiety and devaluation of me as a husband is not only having a detrimental effect on her happiness, but also on my happiness and what's more, it's a terrible model interpersonal relationships to be presenting to a 3 year old child.  It doesn't seem like there's much hope for improvement.

To be frank, I'd divorce in a flash if I didn't think she will run a devastating distortion campaign as a counterattack, impoverish us all with the legal fees and endanger my relationship with our son.

[flourdust]

Hey, thanks for the really clear response!

I dealt with very similar issues in my marriage. For the last several years, I was the only earner of income and the one who handled all finances. My wife would occasionally have these flare-ups where she would get upset and accuse me of hiding our financial information from her. These were usually triggered by my mentioning any kind of tight finances, affordability of things, etc. So I would respond by scrambling to "present" the finances to her. I gave her spreadsheets, I sat down and talked through the budget, I showed her how to log on and access our accounts... .

She never, ever paid any attention to those things. If it wasn't the very moment when she was feeling upset and insecure, she didn't care about the finances.

So, while you may feel that your wife needs to know and understand your finances, you can't make her pay attention.

And, you can make progress on a budget without her cooperation. It would be ideal if she was a full partner in that discussion -- but, again, you can't make her do it, and meanwhile you are bleeding red. You have the choice of taking action, even though it will undoubtedly upset her. But upset her enough to participate in budgeting? That's questionable.

As for the house cleaner, let me make a different suggestion. If you end up re-doing the budget so that bills and necessary expenses (groceries, etc.) are taken care of first, then you can certainly give her as large a chunk as you like of the discretionary income. She can spend that on a house cleaner, if she wants, or lattes every day, or whatever she likes. Her spending money, her choice. But the household budget has to determine how much spending money there is.

[DaddyBear77]

We are ending each month with a loss and I need her cooperation to stop that.

Oh wow, I had literal goosebumps when I read your post Dragon72

It's REALLY hard to be in the position you're in. You've got a very clear view of the current financial situation and where it's headed. GO WITH THAT! You're smart! You see it! Do NOT ignore that voice in your head that says ":)ANGER!"

The consequences of letting an out of control financial situation get worse are catastrophic. My credit rating is currently hovering around 400. I'm pretty sure that my Verizon bill and my ADT bill are both going to bounce tomorrow. I'll leave my description at that, but I think you get the idea.

There's one sure thing I've learned... .

So, while you may feel that your wife needs to know and understand your finances, you can't make her pay attention.

I'll add to that and say, it's unlikely that you can expect your pwBPD to make SOUND financial decisions, even if she DOES pay attention. It sounds like maybe your pwBPD is driven by emotional reasoning, and perhaps a little bit of delusional thinking as well. As long as her 50% keeps coming in, there won't be any catalyst for change, either.

You're in a really tough spot, Dragon72.

What do your instincts say is the right next step here?

[Dragon72]

What do my gut instincts say?

They say, You can fix this! Get advice from an independent financial adviser to help draw up a budget, and stick to it.  That way, if she kicks up a fuss about having her money reduced, I can point to a document and say ":)on't whine at me, look at what the Expert says we need to do".

But my gut is also saying get the hell out. Let's get real, she's never going to love me (in a sense of love, playfulness, empathy, compassion, forgiveness, intimacy). So what's the point?

[DaddyBear77]

You can fix this! Get advice from an independent financial adviser to help draw up a budget, and stick to it.  That way, if she kicks up a fuss about having her money reduced, I can point to a document and say ":)on't whine at me, look at what the Expert says we need to do".

GREAT idea! And yes, she will most likely kick up one he-- of a fuss. Be prepared for that. Your instinct might be to back down and go back to 50%. She might even push for more, as a "cushion" against future "outrageous moves" like, gasp, getting the family finances under control!

But my gut is also saying get the hell out. Let's get real, she's never going to love me (in a sense of love, playfulness, empathy, compassion, forgiveness, intimacy). So what's the point?

That's a fair question to ask yourself, but I would suggest the two paths are not mutually exclusive. What happens if you get the finances under control, and then later decide to leave? What happens if you decide to leave, and then get finances under control?

[formflier]

We are ending each month with a loss and I need her cooperation to stop that.

 

Ummm... .let's be frank here.  You would "like" her cooperation to stop that.  It would appear you have done many tactics to try and get that... .

How has that worked out?

If you give her less money to spend, then you won't have a negative at the end of the month... .right?
 
Help me understand how you need her cooperation?

Note... .I'm not aware of any method where she will like solving this problem... or be happy... or whatever... .That's really not your concern.

FF

[formflier]

Full disclosure... .I've taken several years to get to the current financial spot that I am at with my wife.

Several failed "deals" in there.

Now... .all the money I make (in my name only) goes to my accounts.

All the money she makes (in her name only) goes to her accounts.

We do have several joint properties and income is deposited in to joint accounts for that.  Although most of that is taken up by expenses for those properties.  I suppose is she started grabbing that and running with it... .I'd have to do something there.

Every time I "protected" myself financially... .she freaked... .and got over it. 

Big picture:  More openess is going to fuel the fire... .less will help.  Trust me.

In the future when she says you are stealing money... .ask her to show you the transactions that have her concerned... .then hush.  Keep putting the action back in her corner. 


FF

[teapay]

Like other fathers, lack of cooperation on finances was an issue in our house that went on for many years and did its significant damage to our finances.  I went through many of the mental machinations others have described, many budgeting systems and endless discussions, both with and without outside party’s eyes and influence.  At best, it slowed the bleeding but never stopped it.  Ultimately, the solution was to separate the finances and for me to entirely take over the management of finances and let my wife manage her own finances.  It has been inconvenient for all, but was the successful solution.  Now my family is protected and I have a lot of peace of mind.  I can plan and accomplish things for the family.  It wasn’t without its tumult, but in the end it was the smartest thing to do and made me a much, much happier man.  Dealing with tumult is a separate issue.  Eventually, my wife started to adapt somewhat, which will benefit her in the long run what happens.  One of the biggest things that I’ve learned through dealing with BPD is that doing what I believe is the best course of action in the end always turns out to be the best course of action for me and the family as a whole and it is my wife’s decision to bow out or implode.  And I never have to feel guilty or feel ashamed for doing what I think is best.

[formflier]

  I went through many of the mental machinations others have described, many budgeting systems and endless discussions

So... I think all of us can describe your future "successful" end state.  You get to choose the path on how to get there.  Also, I'm one of those guys that needs to see and feel the impact of a decision I make.  Especially if I went against advice.

I did have a family T tell me years ago that I would be better off giving her an allowance and refusing to discuss further.  This was when she was a SAHM.  I chose to make another deal.  While that deal worked for several years, my wife eventually broke it and like all the others she broke, blamed others instead of taking responsibility.

FF

[formflier]

 
So... I think all of us can describe your future "successful" end state.  You get to choose the path on how to get there.  Also, I'm one of those guys that needs to see and feel the impact of a decision I make.  Especially if I went against advice.

I did have a family T tell me years ago that I would be better off giving her an allowance and refusing to discuss further.  This was when she was a SAHM.  I chose to make another deal.  While that deal worked for several years, my wife eventually broke it and like all the others she broke, blamed others instead of taking responsibility.

So... .it may be wise for you to give your wife choices that YOU can live with.  Let her pick her path, rather than you dictate the only option.

"Babe, our budget is bleeding.  I'm not willing to continue on this path, when I don't understand where our money is going. "

"I'll be putting $x in your account on these dates.  I'll consider additional written requests accompanied by complete financial ledger."

I'm assuming you are a detail guy and will have all other finances in an appropriate spreadsheet.

I'm embarrassed that I let our finances get so out of hand, without intervening.  I've run multi-million dollar line item budgets that spanned many departments and done very well with that.  Auditors loved the way I directed my finance team to handle them.

Yet at home... .things were a mess... .money would be inexplicably missing, then later turn out to have gone to her family.

Sigh... .

FF

[teapay]

My wife has been a SAHM for 12 years now, but does have part-time jobs which bring in a small monthly income for herself.  Now I transfer to her a monthly allowance, twice my own allowance, and she keeps her monthly income and pays for her phone.  If she makes more money, I kick off more of her bills to her.  If she needs or wants something for the family, kids, home, she needs to ask me first and if I think it is okay I transfer her the money ahead of time or reimburse her later.  If she doesn’t ask or want to ask, she may get stuck with those costs and have to pay out of pocket.  This gives me a hard veto on family funds, because only I have access, but doesn’t prohibit her from getting something she wants or disagrees with me.  It allows her to give me an “Up yours” by using her own money if she wants.   It has forced, yet also helped her, to distinguish wants from needs and prioritize, which tends to become cleaner once one has to do it with one’s own limited money.  Similarly, if I think the family, kids, home, needs something I ask her and if she objects I use my own funds without drama.  Other than the forced discussion and hard veto, this set up is much like many other typical families with kids use, where the couple voluntarily discuss purchases and each partner doesn’t unilaterally spend from family accounts. It is not an agreement.  It is something I am imposing and something which I can change unilaterally based on circumstances, but which I deemed necessary because I was dealing with someone who was cognitively compromised and threatening the solvency of the family.  I definitely recommend it to other men struggling similarly regarding finances with BPD wives.