Home page of BPDFamily.com, online relationship supportMember registration here
March 29, 2024, 07:23:37 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Board Admins: Kells76, Once Removed, Turkish
Senior Ambassadors: Cat Familiar, EyesUp, SinisterComplex
  Help!   Boards   Please Donate Login to Post New?--Click here to register  
bing
How to communicate after a contentious divorce... Following a contentious divorce and custody battle, there are often high emotion and tensions between the parents. Research shows that constant and chronic conflict between the parents negatively impacts the children. The children sense their parents anxiety in their voice, their body language and their parents behavior. Here are some suggestions from Dean Stacer on how to avoid conflict.
84
Pages: [1]   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Depression as a comorbid factor  (Read 461 times)
Lalathegreat
****
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 301


« on: April 26, 2017, 04:00:20 PM »

Ok, so since our disastrous vacation, all pwBPD wants to do is sleep all day. He blames me, the trip was so hard that he now must recover. Not having glasses makes his eyes hurt, blah blah blah. I want to scream "suck it up buttercup - you broke your own damn glasses! You ruined your own damn vacation! Screw you!" But of course I won't.

I think that the depression is real even if his claimed reasons (probably very real to him) are crap. And it means that I spend our visits taking care of his son. Seriously - pwBPD is hardly getting out of bed. Well, except for after I go to bed then he stays  up playing video games. Then back to bed where he asks me to get his son up and onto the bus.

Aside from this, he has actually treated me very kindly. But oof - it's been almost 2 weeks. (Generally I spend 2-3 nights each week while my kids are at their Dad's)

Any advice on what to do? He needs a job soon or he won't be paying rent. Not my problem I know, but I can't help but care.

Logged
formflier
Retired Staff
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Relationship status: Married
Posts: 19076



WWW
« Reply #1 on: April 26, 2017, 06:21:46 PM »


Don't "do" anything. 

How are you communicating?  Text?

He is an adult... .has a phone... .and can sort out glasses.  Perhaps I might recommend "listening less" to his stuff, especially stuff he has done to himself. 

Usually being a good listener is something to work on and focus on.  I'm guessing in this case it is filling a dysfunctional desire. 

look at this from his point of view (lots of guesses here... .but lets think about this)

Essentially he gets to sleep as much as he wants, has been able to abdicate caring for the child to you,
 and apparently has put some energy into destroying his own stuff.

Is he experiencing the "consequences" of his actions?  At first blush... .it doesn't seem like it.

How old is the kid?  It's admirable that you have a desire to help and potentially what you are doing is very helpful.  If I were you, I would want you to think things through.

Big picture:  It's usually best to let pwBPD make their own decisions AND experience the consequences of those decisions.  If you get away from that... .make sure you have a good reason and solid game plan.

FF
Logged

Grey Kitty
********
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: Separated
Posts: 7182



« Reply #2 on: April 28, 2017, 10:45:28 AM »

Yes, depression like that is very real. (Aside: I tend toward it myself, I just am in a position where I won't be out on the street soon, for better or for worse)

Anyhow, I've got a couple suggestions:

1. Validation/support. When you are depressed, it would help to reach out and connect with somebody, but because you are depressed, you don't feel like it.

2. Prepare for the worst--it sounds like he could be evicted from where he's living.

It would be 'natural' for a partner to offer him the chance to move in with you, either temporarily or permanently. And the temporary version might continue on longer than expected.

Especially with a pwBPD, there are risks to doing this. Think about it, and decide if you are willing or not. (We can help you sort out the pros and cons)

Whatever you decide, it will be easier on you if you have thought about it before the subject comes up.
Logged
formflier
Retired Staff
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Relationship status: Married
Posts: 19076



WWW
« Reply #3 on: April 28, 2017, 11:33:35 AM »


On all those tests, I usually pop up on the "depressive" side of things as well.  Frankly, there is a lot in my life to be depressed about.  It takes effort to drag myself towards neutral.

For instance, today I had some drive time and I reached out to connect with a Navy buddy I haven't talked to in a few months.  I had heard through the grapevine there was some stuff going on with him and I called to offer support... .we caught up on some other things as well.

Here is the thing... .what is the likelyhood that a pwBPD would be "deliberate" about taking care of themselves?  Especially when there is someone to take care of it for them.

FF
Logged

Portent
***
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 208


« Reply #4 on: April 28, 2017, 11:49:43 AM »

I'm not sold on true depression for pwBPD. I'm not at all a fan of psychology as a hard science. From what I have read about he actual functioning of the BPD brain I see no way that true clinical depression and BPD can be comorbid. In BPD the Subgenual Anterior Cingulate Cortex (SACC) which regulates stress is under active. In depression its over active. I dont see how it can be both at the same time. While symptoms, AKA traits, may look alike I think that what is actually going on in the brain is quite different. Since depression is an axis 1 when we start to treat depression with medication it gets quite dangerous IMHO. It has been hypothesized that one of the reasons that suicide is a common side effect of anti-depresents is because BPD gets diagnosed as depression and is treated with drugs like Prozac that actually make the diminished function of the SACC even worse.

Now I'm not a PhD I'm an engineer but my personal opinion is the psychology and psychiatry desperately need to get more analytical. There are $20,000 IR imagining machines that will let a doctor see how the brain is responding to specific tests. There will always be a place for differential diagnosis but when we have the capability to perform tests to confirm diagnoses it needs to be standard practice. If a doctor found someone in shock looked at the symptoms determined that the person was hyperglycemic and gave them an insulin injection only to kill them because they were hypoglycemic that doctor would be found guilty of malpractice because he/she should have done a glucose test first.
Logged
flourdust
********
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: In the process of divorce after 12 year marriage
Posts: 1663



« Reply #5 on: April 28, 2017, 02:21:18 PM »

Hi, Portent. Clinical depression is more related to production and uptake of certain neurotransmitters than brain activation. Studies of activation in brain areas are interesting, but they only provide a partial picture of the full evidence of how the brain functions. They also can be easy to over interpret, as activation in a part of the brain does not necessarily tell us what is happening there or its impact on behavior or cognition. Be careful not to overgeneralize from just one type of study.
Logged

Portent
***
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 208


« Reply #6 on: April 28, 2017, 03:03:03 PM »

Hi, Portent. Clinical depression is more related to production and uptake of certain neurotransmitters than brain activation. Studies of activation in brain areas are interesting, but they only provide a partial picture of the full evidence of how the brain functions. They also can be easy to over interpret, as activation in a part of the brain does not necessarily tell us what is happening there or its impact on behavior or cognition. Be careful not to overgeneralize from just one type of study.

IMHO its not over generalizing increased activity of the SACC is a hallmark of depression. Decreased activity is also a hallmark of BPD. You cant have both at the same time. As I have said before psychology needs to get more analytical in its approaches. There is absolutely no excuse for not doing brain scans and differential diagnosis. An orthopedic physician does not say 'I think you have a torn ACL lets get you to surgery'. They send the patient for an MRI.
Logged
flourdust
********
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: In the process of divorce after 12 year marriage
Posts: 1663



« Reply #7 on: April 28, 2017, 03:40:17 PM »

Well, as I said, if you fixate on brainscans exclusively and assume they are 100% determinative and ignore all other forms of experimental evidence, then sure... .
Logged

Portent
***
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 208


« Reply #8 on: April 28, 2017, 03:55:12 PM »

Well, as I said, if you fixate on brainscans exclusively and assume they are 100% determinative and ignore all other forms of experimental evidence, then sure... .

I dont regard survey questions as experimental evidence. All SSRI's are gauged in part on their ability to reduce activity in the subgenual anterior cingulate cortex, check the literature. You would want to make sure that the SACC is actually under active before making a diagnosis of depression and administrating an SSRI but at present we do not.

I know I am not a psychologist or a psychiatrist but part of science is for other fields to look at how you do things and say

"Why in the holly hell are you doing it that way!"

I'm reminded of The Mathematics of Happiness fraud. Where the authors simply used math that was so complex (Lorenz fluid dynamics) that no psychologist/psychiatrists could understand it. Rather than admit that they didn't understand it they simply went along with it because it sounded good.

It took a 50 something physicist who was changing careers to Psychology(something I'm considering myself now) to identify the fraud because he understood the math.
Logged
formflier
Retired Staff
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Relationship status: Married
Posts: 19076



WWW
« Reply #9 on: April 28, 2017, 04:15:28 PM »

  You cant have both at the same time. 

Perhaps this is true... .perhaps not. 

While I certainly would recommend more brain scans to get additional data points I would be very shy about saying that brain scans are now definitive and the body of work that encompasses Psychology and Psychiatry up to the point of starting brain scans has now been supplanted by brain scans...

Wow... .lots of words there... .but I think I said that right.

I love data... but it's just data.  Especially when it comes to human emotions and relationships I'll take an experienced Psychologist any day over a brain scan.

However, I'll admit it would be nice to have both.

Just my opinion, but I would say in 50 years we will say that right now we are at the start of understanding how the brain works... .vice at the end (and having figured it out)

FF
Logged

Portent
***
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 208


« Reply #10 on: April 28, 2017, 05:15:28 PM »

I love data... but it's just data.  Especially when it comes to human emotions and relationships I'll take an experienced Psychologist any day over a brain scan.

However, I'll admit it would be nice to have both.

As I have been saying, I didn't say that there is no place for differential diagnosis. In the above example if you go into the doctor complaining of knee pain he doesn't just send you off for an MRI.

And for BPD of course the relationship is important especially for treatment, I regard it as being similar to a learning disability, but for diagnosis there needs to be some empirical objective testing involved. Especially when we are talking about the cluster B's. Sociopathy runs right through the cluster B's so you cannot expect to get honest answers.
Logged
flourdust
********
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: In the process of divorce after 12 year marriage
Posts: 1663



« Reply #11 on: April 28, 2017, 10:34:33 PM »

Well, if you go into psychology, you'll get to learn all about the field and even test your ideas. Good luck.
Logged

empath
******
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Posts: 848


« Reply #12 on: April 29, 2017, 12:23:28 AM »

I've been thinking through the depression question myself - because my uBPDh had been on antidepressants for about 2 years and went off at the beginning of the year. I wasn't seeing much improvement in his thought patterns or behaviors - he was less disturbed by the relationship issues, and so they became worse because he chose not to do anything about them. His helping team has sensed a stuckness with him, but they don't know exactly why. He was feeling fine about how things were going... .  The consequences have been significant in his mind and consume his thinking, so he recently decided (on his own) to go back on the AD to 'numb the pain'.

As I've considered this, with pwBPD, they experience significant amounts of relational pain and tend to think in black and white terms. My h likes to throw out the fact that he has a 'chemical imbalance' as an excuse for his behavior. So, while he is excited and enjoys the other parts of his life, especially his work and new opportunities, he claims that he is depressed because of the things happening in our family (it's "falling apart" in his mind). Technically, depression is more a state throughout a person's life, and it doesn't typically relate directly to a life event.

One of the common misdiagnoses for BPD is major depression, and it can seem very similar. But pwBPD usually do something about their pain - some kind of self-medicating, self-destructive behavior (another one of the traits). The pain is real; the desire for escape is real. The consequences have to be real, too. Shielding someone from the consequences of their behavior isn't helpful if it is a 'regular' way they deal with pain.
Logged
Portent
***
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 208


« Reply #13 on: April 29, 2017, 02:40:13 AM »

One of the common misdiagnoses for BPD is major depression, and it can seem very similar. But pwBPD usually do something about their pain - some kind of self-medicating, self-destructive behavior (another one of the traits). The pain is real; the desire for escape is real. The consequences have to be real, too. Shielding someone from the consequences of their behavior isn't helpful if it is a 'regular' way they deal with pain.

This is the bid difference. Depression tends to manifest itself around teen to adult. BPD shows itself between toddler and juvenile. BPD is really a series of maladaptive coping mechanisms for the inability to regulate emotion.
Logged
Can You Help Us Stay on the Air in 2024?

Pages: [1]   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Our 2023 Financial Sponsors
We are all appreciative of the members who provide the funding to keep BPDFamily on the air.
12years
alterK
AskingWhy
At Bay
Cat Familiar
CoherentMoose
drained1996
EZEarache
Flora and Fauna
ForeverDad
Gemsforeyes
Goldcrest
Harri
healthfreedom4s
hope2727
khibomsis
Lemon Squeezy
Memorial Donation (4)
Methos
Methuen
Mommydoc
Mutt
P.F.Change
Penumbra66
Red22
Rev
SamwizeGamgee
Skip
Swimmy55
Tartan Pants
Turkish
whirlpoollife



Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2006-2020, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!