Invalidation - Practical Example?

[DaddyBear77]

This morning my uBPDw woke up and asked "Will you ever love me again?"

I respond with one word: "Yes"

She goes on: "I know, I know, you're just going to invalidate me and tell me you already DO love me. But you're lying. I wish you would stop lying."

What comes next here? How would you validate this? How would you at least not invalidate? Does that even apply here?

Looking for some practical answers to help make the lessons we have here concrete.

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[waverider]

Nothing worse when they learn the validation/invalidation terminology as they will distort it and throw it back at you the whole totally confusing you and tying you in knots

She goes on: "I know, I know, you're just going to invalidate me and tell me you already DO love me. But you're lying. I wish you would stop lying."

What comes next here? How would you validate this? How would you at least not invalidate? Does that even apply here?

Don't tell her she is right or wrong tell her its sad/unfortunate she feels that way, but that's not the way you feel. ie separate how you feel from how she does rather than trying to superimpose your perception over hers

[isilme]

You validate that you are hearing how they are FEELING, not that you AGREE with what they are feeling or that they are right.

"I love you"

"No, you don't.  You are invalidating how I feel."

"I understand you are communicating you feel I do not love you."

Then look at SET if you can, and see if you can use Support, Empathy, and Truth to tell her YOUR feelings. 

It's hard for them to believe we have the ability and capacity to feel different than they do - it's all enmeshed for them, and I think at times we are seen as appendages they get upset they cannot 100% control and MAKE make them happy.  Even feeling different can be invalidating to a pwBPD.  If I feel like I like a movie, a person, or a task, but hey don't - it's invalidating.  ou are not meant to validate that their reality os true or that you share their feelings (unless you actually to DO - that's a bit of a win-win). 

[Skip]

We have six tools in the tool bar... .one is:

Don't be invalidating.
~ Different People Have Different Validation Needs
~ At Its Core, Validation is About Accepting, Not Judging Others
~ Applying Validation in Your Life
~ Validation Sounds Simple Enough (but it's not)

But the one before it is:

Empathetic Listening and Active Listening
When someone asks me what is single most important life skill for supporting a loved one with borderline personality disorder, I say "empathy". I typically follow with "and many of us overestimate our own empathy skills".

You have to do this, first and foremost.

Her: Will you ever love me again?
You: I didn't expect that. What are you thinking... .
Her: Yada, yada, yada.
You: Are you saying <paraphrase> <---- this is the validation
Her: No. Yada, yada, yada.
You: So you are saying <paraphrase> <---- this is the validation
Her: Yes and yada, yada.
You: What needs to happen?<---- this is the validation
Her: Yada, yada. I don't know.
You: I want to think about this for a day. Lets talk at dinner on Tuesday<---- extinction burst exit

This is invalidation... .


Date: May 2013Minutes: 1:41
It's Not About The Nail

[Skip]

"I understand you are communicating you feel I do not love you."

I see this type of thing written often by many members on many websites, but I would really be careful with it. I also read about how often it is rejected. It sounds like insincere placating and what you really mean is... .

I understand you are communicating you feel I do not love you, but your feelings are incorrect because you have little grasp on reality.

Someone used something like this on me one time. It sounded like she was saying something she read in a book... .totally out of character and a misfit for the situation.

Some things I've learned:

• We have to stop being invalidating first. That requires taking a sincere look at what we say/do and changing our style a bit.
• Everyone has a different way to feel validated... .we have to search (trial and error) to find what works for that person.
• Validation is not a response to negative statement - its a broader response to a persons heart.
• If we are generally less invalidating and more validating in normal times, we it will feel that we don't need to be lobbing "validation Hail Marys" when there is conflict.
• You can be validating if you really don't hear  the other person and sincerely have validating feelings.

On this incident, DaddyBear77, I think you are not hearing her say:

Will you ever love me again?
You don't make me feel loved, appealing, and cherished.

[DaddyBear77]

Skip,

This is great - thank you for posting this - I believe that strong skills around listening and validation are the most critical components to being able to IMPROVE a relationship.

I have some follow up questions, though, because there are practical aspects to the situation that always creep up.

Her: Will you ever love me again?
You: I didn't expect that. What are you thinking... .

When I say "what are you thinking?" or "Humm. Help me understand what you're thinking?" - I will often get a hostile response like "I just TOLD you what I was thinking! I WAS speaking English, wasn't I?"

What do we do here?
Do we have some different ways of asking the same question?
Do we go on to the paraphrasing steps, and say something like "Are you saying you don't feel like I'll ever love you again?"

Then, if we can't get past the hostility, or things escalate too quickly, is this when we skip to "I need to take a break" or "I need to get back to this"?

Her: Yada, yada, yada.
You: Are you saying <paraphrase> <---- this is the validation
Her: No. Yada, yada, yada.

Again, this is usually a spot where I get hostile pushback like "You're twisting my words!" or "I meant exactly what I said!"

So similar question based on hostility.

You: So you are saying <paraphrase> <---- this is the validation
Her: Yes and yada, yada.
You: What needs to happen?<---- this is the validation
Her: Yada, yada. I don't know.
You: I want to think about this for a day. Lets talk at dinner on Tuesday<---- extinction burst exit

And this is another spot where I get a hostile pushback like "No! I won't be put off like that" or "I don't want to talk about it later, I NEED to talk about it NOW! I feel hurt! I feel pain! I feel enraged that you would lead me on for years without really loving me!"

When you say "extinction burst exit" is that what you're referring to? When the anger and rage enters into that verbal assault territory, we make an exit?

Also, related note: our pwBPD seem to have an endless memory for things that have wronged them. How do we account for that when, Tuesday at dinner, they say "You told me you would talk to me about why you don't love me tonight. Were you planning on bringing that up or just ignoring like you usually do?"


Sorry for all the questions, but I really do see this as a great opportunity to learn / practice / role-play what to do in the cases where the ideal flow breaks down.

[Skip]

Communication is breaking down. I think we talked about this before. You are in stage 3 or 4 and so it is harder. One thing you do have to work with is that you know the responses so at least you can anticipate them.
https://bpdfamily.com/content/your-relationship-breaking-down

Then, if we can't get past the hostility, or things escalate too quickly, is this when we skip to "I need to take a break" or "I need to get back to this"?

Extinction burst is explained here.
https://bpdfamily.org/2010/10/partner-have-borderline-personality.html

In short, when someone is emotionally charged, there is a time period in which they need to return to baseline. If you can gracefully exit (especially with fer feeling good or neutral about it) you give her time to self sooth.

"I need to take a break" or "I need to get back to this"?

This is passive aggressive and it typically inflames the situation. You can accomplish the same by saying, "I need to run to the bathroom" or "I need to go put gas in your car" or "I need to order those garden flowers you wanted before they close."

These are graceful exits. She may balk at the time, but when she gets back to baseline, she will most likely be ok with it.

Remember, no matter how far she buries the hatchet, you don't have to get down with her.

our pwBPD seem to have an endless memory for things that have wronged them. How do we account for that when, Tuesday at dinner, they say "You told me you would talk to me about why you don't love me tonight. Were you planning on bringing that up or just ignoring like you usually do?"

This is Gottman Stage 3 and 4 stuff... .you are in the mire too. If you promised to talk and you know she is likely to ask, talk. You don't have to have answer, you can just relate, and probe her for what she wants.

If she losses it and goes off, just sit there quietly and let her babble until she hears herself being a jerk and then say I'm sorry and be silent.

Something like this will make her realize after a while that raging isn't good. You can also use extinction burst exits.

Again, this is usually a spot where I get hostile pushback like "You're twisting my words!" or "I meant exactly what I said!"

Say, I don't know what to do? or I don't know what to say? Be ok to let the conversation end on a sour note. She will come back to baseline eventually.

I will often get a hostile response like "I just TOLD you what I was thinking! I WAS speaking English, wasn't I?"

If you keep getting this, then just ask her what she wants to do and agree.  
" I don't know what to say"
" What do you want me to do"
" I want a divorce"
" That would break my heart, but if you truely want that, I will give it to you"
" Yes, I don'kt need to think about it".
" OK"

Let her have time to get to baseline. Do validating things in the interim and wait for her to bring it up again.

Do we have some different ways of asking the same question?
Do we go on to the paraphrasing steps, and say something like "Are you saying you don't feel like I'll ever love you again?"

I think you let her have her say and in the interim do some validating things.

"Our talk last night was hard. I just wanted to share these flowers"
What for her to respond. It may take a few times and a few days each.

Ultimately, if all of these things go nowhere, you are hopelessly locked in Stage 4, and there is no uptick over time, your relationship is spent. If it gets to the point that the roller coaster only goes down and down and down... .

Until then, the important thing is to accept that pwBPD are emotionally volatile and can ride up and down and to live with that you can't get seasick every time she has a mood shift. You have to take it in stride.

In my case, I expected that there would be bad days and I learned how to lightly plant seed of growth in the storm rather than drive a heavy tractor through the mud screaming "we're all going to die". I tried different things until I found things that worked.

What I say is true for all relationships. In BPD the swings are higher, but I have seen the same type of thing in other women (as have you). And we know some men that are better at handling these things than others, and some aren't.

[Shane87]

Nothing worse when they learn the validation/invalidation terminology as they will distort it and throw it back at you the whole totally confusing you and tying you in knots

Don't tell her she is right or wrong tell her its sad/unfortunate she feels that way, but that's not the way you feel. ie separate how you feel from how she does rather than trying to superimpose your perception over hers

Bingo!  Own your own thoughts, feelings, actions.  Acknowledge that you understand how she feels/perceives, but you aren't obligated to own it.  Don't argue.  I often say to my wife, "we feel (or perceive things) differently about this issue, and that's OK."

[Skip]

I often say to my wife, "we feel (or perceive things) differently about this issue, and that's OK."

Having values and boundaries are good. We certainly don't want someone having us replace our own thoughts with hers and second guess what we feel - which is your point.

It seems to me that her issue is that she doesn't feel loved. Do we say, "that's ok, we feel (or perceive things)differently"? Will it be heard as "I don't care?".  Will that actually be correct?

I only mention this to make the point that when fundamental things like love, sex, or safety are at play for any extended time, we are in a relationship that is a ticking timebomb. Infidelity. Divorce. PAS.

I think this is Gottman's whole point. He has shown that when we get into and reside in stage 4, the marriage ultimately fails.

Do we try to reverse it? Do we just go with it and hope for the best? Do we get out on our own terms?

Only 12% of relationships in stage 4 recover and it takes work.

When the USA is at ":)efCon" 1, decisions get made differently than at ":)eCon 3".

[DaddyBear77]

When the USA is at ":)efCon" 1, decisions get made differently than at ":)eCon 3".

Bingo.

I am really seeing the interplay now between Gottman, Active Listening, and Validation / Invalidation

Only 12% of relationships in stage 4 recover and it takes work.

Gulp.
Sigh.

And does this statistic take into account relationships where one or both partners have PD symptoms? Probably not.

Skip, I think you've painted a very clear path through this. Thank you.

[Skip]

And does this statistic take into account relationships where one or both partners have PD symptoms? Probably not.

It's a population statistic, not your family's specific odds.

I am really seeing the interplay now between Gottman, Active Listening, and Validation / Invalidation

Good. We tend to isolate these tools, isolate our fights, and think of relationships in terms of a steady state condition. Partnerships are none of these.

[Shane87]

Having values and boundaries are good. We certainly don't want someone having us replace our own thoughts with hers and second guess what we feel - which is your point.

It seems to me that her issue is that she doesn't feel loved. Do we say, "that's ok, we feel (or perceive things)differently"? Will it be heard as "I don't care?".  Will that actually be correct?

I only mention this to make the point that when fundamental things like love, sex, or safety are at play for any extended time, we are in a relationship that is a ticking timebomb. Infidelity. Divorce. PAS.

I think this is Gottman's whole point. He has shown that when we get into and reside in stage 4, the marriage ultimately fails.

Do we try to reverse it? Do we just go with it and hope for the best? Do we get out on our own terms?

Only 12% of relationships in stage 4 recover and it takes work.

When the USA is at ":)efCon" 1, decisions get made differently than at ":)eCon 3".

Fair questions to ask.

I only have my own anecdotal experience to draw on regarding this issue. 

Roughly three years into our marriage my wife transitioned from using chaos (randomly melting down into incoherent wailing fits) to keep me walking on eggshells and jumping to satisfy her every demand -to- outright verbal abuse, blaming me for everything wrong in the world whether real or fabricated.
An exchange repeated so often that it's seared into my mind:
Wife, "I'm afraid of you!"
Me, "Why are you afraid?  Have I ever laid a finger on you to hurt you?  Have I ever threatened you?"
Wife, "Well, no."  "I'm afraid that you're going to leave me!"
Me, "Have I ever threatened to leave you?"
Wife, "Well, no.  We need to work on our communication!"

So we went to marriage therapy.  My wife complained that I was the problem in our relationship because supposedly I didn't know how to communicate.  For the next 6 months we returned every two weeks so I could be coached on how to listen to my wife, repeat back in my own words what she was saying, verify that I understood her correctly, and validate her every thought or feeling.  Eager to help our relationship, I did everything asked of me.  We'd return, and every two weeks the therapist would be told by my wife that I still hadn't learned to communicate.  Before the end, the therapist literally had me hopping from "step" to "step" on a mat of communication principles on the floor to make sure I understood what I was supposed to be doing. 

What did following all those steps improve?  Absolutely nothing.  After six months the therapist threw his hands up and said that we might as well divorce.  Why?  Because there was never a problem with my being willing to listen, or repeat back what she was saying, or validating her feelings.  In fact, my wife was deliberately using my empathy as a bully stick to manipulate and control me.  My validating her every thought is what allowed her to keep me cowed.  My empathizing allowed her to verbally abuse me with reckless abandon because I wasn't applying boundaries.

So what saved our marriage from collapse at that time?   A gut instinct.  The day the therapist told us to divorce, I decided to follow an impression.  Instead of sitting there, allowing her to heap blame on me for hours at a time (literally) and validating her thoughts and feelings, I instead said, "Sweetheart, I love you.  I'm going for a drive, and I'll be back in an hour."  Then I'd follow through.  It didn't solve the problem, but it did wonders to improve the situation.

That was long before I had any clue of what was actually going on.  My wife suffers from a strong (and recently diagnosed) case of BPD, but she's very intelligent, very high functioning, and overwhelmingly manipulative.

So when it comes to communicating, I absolutely take time to repeat things back to her and try to understand underlying needs, but I've also learned to NOT enable the manipulation.  I'll validate that she has feelings, perceptions, and needs all day long, but I don't take accountability for things that I'm not doing, saying, or feeling.  She is free to own what is hers (feelings and perceptions), and I freely own what is mine.  This has done wonders to improve the relationship dynamic between us and the stability of our home.

I don't argue with her.  I acknowledge back to her what she is feeling or perceiving and empathize wherever possible, but I don't let her dictate my feelings/thoughts/perceptions.
If she doesn't feel loved, she can share that with me and any correlating needs.  I'll take her input and contemplate healthy, productive ways to meet her needs where possible.  She doesn't, however, get to tell me how I am feeling.  Sometimes I simply allow that we have different perceptions and indicate that it's OK (that I'm not upset or angry about it).  I make no apologies for that, because to do otherwise would allow the manipulation that she so frequently attempts.

[Skip]

You are saying the same as I am saying.    

[Shane87]

You are saying the same as I am saying.    

 
Sorry.  I got long winded.  I'm sure that it's a sensitive topic for many of us, because it is so challenging to validate while establishing healthy boundaries.

[JoeBPD81]

I don't know about you guys, but I have a hard time believing someone loves me. I think about myself as a nice guy who tries to do things right... .And is kind of boring. So I don't think I'm the best, but I don't think I'm the worst.

PwBPD kind of think they are the worst, they think no one can love them. And they think if we stay might be because of duty, or pity. They think "What's there to love?"

I don't feel so desperate as to beg her to tell me she loves me all the time. But when she does, it feels like a glass of water in the middle of the dessert.

Ok (a bit of humor). Validation can't be: "Honey, I know you are so horrible that you don't believe anyone can posible love you."  But bear in mind that they say these kind of horrible things to themselves, sometimes out loud.

For anyone observing, if you put up with all the trouble, you sure love her. But we can't use that either.

What can we say?
1.I would search my soul a second, because one day I can say "I love you with all my heart", or "I love you, you are the most important thing in my life"... .And some days I'm so down, that I can only say "of course I love you"
2. "I wish I could always show it to you in a way that you don't need to doubt." (I bet you do wish that).
3. And then "Why do you ask?" or "Can you tell me what has you worried?"

I get it that if I ask my SO about love and she answers as a psicologist, or a line from a book on mental health, that would feel really disapointing, or invalidating. I think the issue is too close to heart to treat it with theory.

So, I would take a step back, a deep breath, and think about her need to feel loved, and how much you love her, and how hard it is to show it all the time, and to believe you are loved. Also, what has worked in the past.

Mi GF's problem is that she thinks I love her... .but because something is wrong with MY head, no one else loved her before (properly). So you might need to remind her of her good qualities, and what made you love her.

That's only my opinion.

[Shane87]

JoeBPD81,

I appreciate the insight that you provide.  Bridging the chasm between the different thought processes is a big victory, when it can be done.

I've found it really helpful to show sincere appreciation for all the good things my wife does.  When she makes a meal (and she's a pretty good cook) I make sure to thank her for it in front of our children.  I make sure she knows that I notice when she helps a neighbor, or spends time helping one of our kids with a school assignment, etc.  This appreciation is shown her mostly when she's calm.

This has helped her feel more secure with me personally, reducing some of her anxiety and reducing some of the extreme manifestations.  This, together with healthy boundaries, has done so much to save our marriage from its downward spiral just a few months ago.

This may not help everyone.  I understand that.  But it's really stabilized our relationship.

[waverider]

 
Sorry.  I got long winded.  I'm sure that it's a sensitive topic for many of us, because it is so challenging to validate while establishing healthy boundaries.

   The principle  here is don't validate on demand. Only at a level you are comfortable with. Validation is a valuable gift don't let it be abused or turned into an obligation or it looses its value.

Saying "no" strategically is equally important as it gives a point of reference to "yes"