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Author Topic: There seems to be no connection between actions and consequences  (Read 1121 times)
Notwendy
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« on: May 15, 2017, 07:40:32 AM »

This is sad- my BPD mother is an elderly widow. She lives some distance from me. She is alone and scared. She wants to be nearer to her "family"- and see her grandchildren more often. She believes I have alienated her from her grandchildren.

When the kids were younger, I did have some boundaries with them to protect them from her manipulations. But they are older now and have their own boundaries with her- based on their observations of how she treats me. They are polite but distant- don't want to be close to her- because they see how she treats the people closest to her.

My father died several years ago. Before he died, I wanted them to move closer to me and they didn't want to move. I truly wanted to be more helpful. However, each time I did go to visit and help, my mother verbally abused and manipulated me. Her relationship with her children is that she treats us like servants, orders us around, and verbally abuses us while we are expected to attend to her needs.

She wants to move closer to me. I get that. She is alone and scared. I wouldn't want to be in that situation either. She mentions other situations such as " I don't understand how Mary would visit her elderly mother a week at a time to take care of her" and then " My friend's child spent her college winter break taking care of her grandmother".  I made the boundary up front and my mother has agreed to this: the boundary is that, yes, if she moves, I will see her more often. We can get together for lunch, or a holiday meal, and I would assist her if I could, but that I have other commitments and can not take off on a moment's notice to come. I will not be her "servant" as she treats me. I plan to hold this boundary. I don't know if she will choose to move or not, but I think it needs to be established if she does.

The sad part is that, I would want to be more helpful and include her in family get togethers if she didn't treat me like she does. Boundaries are meaningless to her.  I get that she wants what she sees other grandparents her age have, but she doesn't seem to connect her actions to the situation. Trying to explain doesn't work. I just have to hold the boundaries.

She is extremely manipulative. I can't tell if she is just trying to get me to do things for her, or if she really doesn't see the connection between how she treats her kids and why we don't want to be more helpful to her. It's really all about that- I feel she just sees me as someone useful to her.

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« Reply #1 on: May 15, 2017, 09:48:45 PM »

Notwendy,
That's a difficult situation. It sounds to me like you are handling the boundaries well by offering to help as much as you can with realistic expectations of your mom needing to move closer. What do you think your mother expects of you in this situation besides you being her servant? Does she expect you to have her move in with you? Or for you to move closer to her?

I find with my own BPD mother that she often does not see the writing on the wall. She does not see others' perspectives and seems to have a good defense of denial against empathizing with how she treats her children.

I have such fears around what will happen if my mom is alone. I also have fears about her treating my child badly with abusive insults. Kids are smart though and I'm glad that yours have figured things out on their own and make choices that they feel comfortable with.

Do you feel guilty for not doing what your mother wants or for not pleasing her?
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Notwendy
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« Reply #2 on: May 16, 2017, 06:08:34 AM »

I don't feel guilty. It's more just feeling the situation is pathetic in a way and not having any way to do what I think is needed. It's not just me. She's had home health providers feel frustrated too.

My mother is intelligent, very good at manipulating others, and not really capable of handling tasks of living as an adult. She needs help but instead of asking or being appreciative she bullies or manipulates people to do what she wants- and it has to be exactly her way- which means if you do much as buy the wrong brand of soup or put the trash in the wrong bag she will pitch a fit. If any home help or family sets limits or boundaries she paints them black, fires them. As a result she is left without help or accepts help from unlicensed people who take advantage of her. Items of value have been stolen from her home yet she refuses to let her children have them. We don't expect anything of material value from her but it's a shame to see family heirlooms gone.

How did things get this way? My fathers main concern was her comfort. We walked on eggshells around her. We did whatever she wanted us to do. If we didn't we got punished. It's not a surprise that she expects this. But after doing much work on codependency- I don't want to be an enabler.

I would help her but it would be on my terms. Not cruel ones but with normal limits- people don't want to be treated like servants of a temperamental despot. But she doesn't get that and so ends up feeling stranded. I guess it's one of those things I am powerless over.

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Notwendy
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« Reply #3 on: May 16, 2017, 12:04:38 PM »

I have another insight into this-

Although my mother says her helpers take advantage of her ( takes victim mode), she continues to hire people who are not credentialed ( don't have licences or training as home help, nursing assistant, or hired through a home health agency) even though she has the option to get credentialed help.

A helper who is not credentialed doesn't have many choices.  If my mother doesn't comply or is disrespectful to someone with skills, that person can leave ( which I suspect has happened). If the helper is without a better job option, then that helper doesn't have choices- my mother is the one in control.  When my father was ill,  home health nurses visited but my mother didn't like them.

I had shown my parents many options for continuing care living situations near me that I thought were nice- they refused all of them. So, now that my mother is speaking about moving to one, I am not so sure she would actually do it- because those places also have skilled help- and rules and boundaries.  My mother would not like this.
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Fie
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« Reply #4 on: May 16, 2017, 04:08:31 PM »

Hello Notwendy 

Is it possible that you have changed your mind a little about the situation with your mum wanting to move (possibly) ?
If I remember correctly you some time ago were writing about this and you said you were not inclined to see more of your mum, just because she wanted to move.
Or am I mistaken ?

xx
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Notwendy
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« Reply #5 on: May 16, 2017, 04:59:27 PM »

It would be inevitable that I would see more of her if she moved closer.  Short visits are easier. I'm Ok with taking her to lunch or dropping in for coffee, holiday or birthday visits. It would feel odd to me if she moved and I rarely saw her. But I wouldn't like frequent visits or being at her beck and call.

It's my choice due to my own values about parents- and elderly parents, but with boundaries. If she is verbally abusive, then I would just leave.
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Notwendy
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« Reply #6 on: May 16, 2017, 05:10:45 PM »

I would also have to decide my end of this because her view changes. I can see her saying "I moved here thinking you'd do this and that and you won't"

She's already doing some of that. When my dad died I wanted some of his things that were sentimental but if she thinks you want something she holds it for leverage. She showed a book my Dad owned to one of my kids- asked if he wanted it. He said yes and then she said she changed her mind. He was dissapointed. She's done that several times. I decided I was not going to make the trip to get something just to have this happen or put my kids through that.

Now she says it's going to cost her a lot of money to get someone to move her and I let her down because I promised to take my dads stuff and didn't. She also complains that nobody helped her move stuff but if we tried she wouldn't allow us to touch it.

Such twisted thinking. I just have to hold on to my view.
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Sunfl0wer
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« Reply #7 on: May 16, 2017, 06:19:27 PM »

Idk, if I were you, I would be sure to clearly communicate that I am not going to be more available as my life is busy right now.  Like, the choice to move is yours, but I am not guaranteeing our frequency of visits will change.  Cause imo, that is a lot of FOG to take on.  If she moves, she is responsible for that decision, I wouldn't want any commitment on my part to be tied into it.

I had a family member recently tell me they are going to move near me.  I think they thought that with me closer, I could help out more.  At first, I romanticized the idea.  Thought more family nearer would be lovely.  Then I thought, wait, maybe the reason we get along so well now is because there is distance and time to miss one another. 

I can completely see them asking for favors of me and me feeling obligated due to them moving closer.  I can totally see this relationship falling apart.

I decided, next time they bring it up, I will set the expectation really low... .and say, I would love for us to be closer... .not sure you moving here will do it cause I work long days and like to relax after.  Just not seeing a move freeing up a lot of free time.  But it would be nice to see you a couple times a month for a museum visit and if we could workout at the gym weekly that would be nice.  (I would suggest things to include them in that I am already doing anyway... .this way it may break their fantasy bubble and give them a different painted pic.)

So when asked, I plan on being clear how frequent I would want visits so they are not disappointed and painting a picture of dropping in like the mom on Everybody Loves Raymond.
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Notwendy
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« Reply #8 on: May 17, 2017, 04:43:08 AM »

You've made some good points Sunflower, and yes, I agree- the boundaries of what I will and will not do have been made clear. The issue is that speaking of boundaries don't have an effect with my mother. The only thing that does is action, and yes, I have walked out when she gets abusive, said no- and faced the resulting anger outburst.

We've established the parameters for if she moved here- she would need to be in a residential situation where she has assistance - I will not do that. Visits, holidays, her birthday- that is OK. There was a lot of FOG for me growing up and when my father was alive. I very much wanted his approval. Now it is more about her age and circumstances. She's elderly and seriously mentally ill. It would be hard for me- with my own sense of values- to be close to NC with her. As to romanticizing- I think it is more on her part than mine.

Telling her not to move does nothing. She does what she wants regardless. I am not going to help her do it, but she can get help. Although it seemed we had financial problems when I was growing up, my father left her financially solid. She can move anywhere she wants to. The boundaries have been made. All I can do is enforce them whatever she decides.

The dynamics with my mother is that she is both controlling and actually incompetent/helpless. A combination of Queen, Witch and Waif. It's been like the Wizard of Oz - growing up we were terrified of this seemingly powerful ( and sometimes cruel) mother. But eventually we saw the person behind the curtain. With every relationship she has- the drama triangle is in play and she takes victim position. We didn't understand this when my father was alive. When he began to get ill, we stepped in to help- for us it was basic decency- helping elderly parents-  but this was an entry on to the triangle as rescuer. If we came to help- she became abusive. Then we stopped and she's then complaining she's alone with nobody helping her. It's the same dynamics over trying to help her deal with my father's belongings as described. We came several times to help sort and organize, and each time we arrive she changes her mind and won't let us touch anything in her house. So we stop, and now she says " you promised to help and you didn't".  I don't have FOG over that, I don't want to participate in it. But some dysfunction is inevitable with her because this is her way of relating to people.

I don't know if she will move or not, but the pattern has been that whatever we have done for her has not met her needs or expectations. The boundaries for me will have to be on my part- knowing what I am willing to do, not willing to do and being OK with that, regardless of her reaction.
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Notwendy
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« Reply #9 on: May 17, 2017, 06:05:33 AM »

What perplexes me is this : does she not make the connection between her actions (emotional and verbal abuse to her kids when we tried to help) and the consequence- her kids don't help her or don't want to help her? Or is her perception as victim so prefered that she does this to achieve that ? There maybe no answer.

Even a small child learns that if you are mean to friends they won't want to play with you. If you pull a dogs tail- the dog will bite you.

For my mom- it seems like she woukd think the dog just bit her for no reason and doesn't connect that to the tail pulling.
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Sunfl0wer
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« Reply #10 on: May 17, 2017, 07:23:49 AM »

I think the reason to communicate clearly that: This is how often I expect to be available when you move... .

Is not for her to follow it.

Is so when she throws it in your face that she moved x amount of miles to spend time with you and now is disappointed, you can feel free... .F, O, and guilt free in stating with clear confidence, I let you know that xyz would be likely my availability.  The rest was your decision.  You own that decision and the results mom.  I am with clear conscious.

So it is not for her to behave a way.

It is you say whatever you have to say or do now... .
So later you can feel confident in setting your boundaries.
Like, you get yourself to the point where you feel like you have done all you can do... .to communicate it without misunderstanding... .for yourself.

I would feel uncomfortable someone telling me they moved FOR me.  I would be constantly reframing that to, you move for you, knowing it may go this way or not.  It is not what I am asking, your choice.

Excerpt
She's already doing some of that. When my dad died I wanted some of his things that were sentimental but if she thinks you want something she holds it for leverage. She showed a book my Dad owned to one of my kids- asked if he wanted it. He said yes and then she said she changed her mind. He was dissapointed. She's done that several times. I decided I was not going to make the trip to get something just to have this happen or put my kids through that.
I find this pretty cruel.
I feel like she has a script in her mind she is playing out that goes like this:
The kids only visit me when they want something.  (I do not feel I have inherent value)
See! I got them to visit cause they wanted my husbands stuff, they really didn't want to spend time with me.  I better hold onto this stuff or I have no value to them in their lives... .cause if I give it away... .then what reason would they be as driven to come see me?
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Sunfl0wer
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« Reply #11 on: May 17, 2017, 07:31:38 AM »

My 2 cents... .
When a person wants to precieve themself as a victim, it doesn't matter how much help they get, doesn't matter how much catering to they get, it doesn't undo their self perception.  If one is determined to be a victim, then they will twist the scripts/narratives around them to be consistent with that reality and role.

We all create our reality.
PwBPD are no different.

How one percieves themself seems to come from inside them, hence why external factors seem to not help too too much.  If someone feels like they are a victim and wants to wear that role... .kinda is all happening in their mind anyways, so me going to help clean my mom's house, take her shopping, etc, was never gonna be enough cause she was gonna be a victim, determined to see herself that way.
Feelings=facts
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Notwendy
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« Reply #12 on: May 17, 2017, 09:27:17 AM »

You are spot on Sunflower. She sees herself as a victim, no matter what. I watched my father do everything he could to make her happy and it didn't resonate with her. I'm used to hearing that what I do or did isn't enough. I agree that what I do has to be enough for me.

I will revisit the conversation of what I will do and what I won't do. Over time the kids will leave the area for college/work and her vision of seeing them often may not be realistic. In addition, if we retire at some point we may move. I don't like the idea of someone moving "for me" either, but it is a reality for her age group and many of her friends have moved closer to their adult children. Many of my friends have moved their parents closer to them. She sees what her peers are doing.

You are also spot on with the cruelty and holding on to my father's possessions as a way to get her family to visit her. She does this with anything of value- confiscate my favorite toys as a kid and hold them hostage. It has been good to hear her say and do cruel things as a detached adult because I can now see her for who she is, not the "mommy" I wished for and hoped that if I was "good enough" as a child, I would get. I've seen her be cruel and manipulative to others too, to the point that I also consider she may be a sociopath. Not a criminal one, but someone who gets some kind of enjoyment out of being cruel to people.
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« Reply #13 on: May 17, 2017, 09:43:14 AM »

Hi NotWendy
My uBPDmon does not make the connection between actions and consequences either. After my worst fear has been realized, I now know this to be true for her. She is so disordered that she cannot see this. We, who are not disordered are looking at the situation from an entirely different perspective. What happened to me is that after years of being enabled by my Dad, my parents moved a thousand miles to be near me and my 2 siblings almost 2 years ago after mt Dad got sick. He unfortunately passed away 1 month after they got here, leaving an elderly new widow with a deeply entrenched personality disorder basically in our backyard. Immediately, and I mean the day after the funeral, the you know what hit the fan. She got right back to her old tricks of twisted behavior, wanting me to step into the enabler role. I went into counseling (my family did not know this), went to my internist due to anxiety, and finally started setting boundaries. Of course this enraged my Mom, and 1 sister stopped talking to me and the other stepped into the enabler role, thus limiting the relationship I had with her. Now I feel very much alone with my FOO, I wish I lived far away. The good news is I am maintaining my inner strength, have a wonderful support system with a great husband, 2 grown children and a few close friends. I often think... .when will this end. Its exhausting. 
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Notwendy
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« Reply #14 on: May 17, 2017, 12:07:04 PM »

I hear you Madeline - hitting the fan seems to be the "normal" in my FOO but like you - I did counseling and began to set boundaries when my Dad was sick. I found out that in a family with a PW BPD it seems you are either an enabler or not, and it splits the family. Several members on my mothers side barely spoke to me in years. It was hard to see this side of my family but I knew I could not enable her or allow her to verbally abuse me.
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Sunfl0wer
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« Reply #15 on: May 17, 2017, 02:37:33 PM »

Excerpt
I've seen her be cruel and manipulative to others too, to the point that I also consider she may be a sociopath. Not a criminal one, but someone who gets some kind of enjoyment out of being cruel to people.
I think the word u are going for could be machiavellian.
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« Reply #16 on: May 17, 2017, 04:06:39 PM »

Exactly, she is crafty.

I think there are pwBPD who hurt other people because they are in victim mode and think it is justified, or they are projecting. They may even feel remorse.

But my mother appears to enjoy it. She has a glassy "lizard " look in her eyes. She can appear to be sympathetic but it goes with manipulation.

I don't feel sorry for myself, but I felt sorry for my father being in a relationship with her, yet somehow he chose to do so. I understood that he would want to stay while we kids were at home, but he stayed after we were grown and on our own.
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« Reply #17 on: May 18, 2017, 12:52:02 AM »

I understand your feeling of bewilderement about your mother not understanding about the dog and pulling it's tail.

Maybe she kind of does understand, but feels that this should not apply to her (narcissistic trait?) ? Or maybe she wants to test just how far your love for her will go ? Or a combination of both ?
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Notwendy
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« Reply #18 on: May 18, 2017, 04:47:57 AM »

That's possible-

She may be testing- or doing the same thing she's done for years but it doesn't work now.

Love for her? That's questionable. We- her children - were controlled by fear of her. We didn't do what she wanted because we loved her. We were afraid of her.

Love from her? Sadly - I think she's so stuck in victim perspective she can't see love from people or love in return. She's very disorderd.

But you're right about the testing me. Sometimes I wonder if she is bewildered that I am no longer as codependent with her. When working on that I considered a kind of love that doesn't enable. Enabling someone isn't good for them. I do have that kind of love for her. But it isn't the kind of love that she may want at the moment.

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« Reply #19 on: May 20, 2017, 12:40:32 AM »

What perplexes me is this : does she not make the connection between her actions (emotional and verbal abuse to her kids when we tried to help) and the consequence- her kids don't help her or don't want to help her? Or is her perception as victim so prefered that she does this to achieve that ? There maybe no answer.

Please may I offer a personal opinion (generically rather than specific to your vexing situation!).

IME of borderline personality, the borderline thrives on the negative! It enables them to identify as a martyr. When the borderline gets bit by the dog, they kind of welcome the fact... .it:

  • enables their martyrdom;
    creates a drama or two for them to inhabit; and;
    validates that it is not them but their abuse victim(s) who were wrong all the time.

Please may I be bold enough to suggest that until the victim of a borderline's abusive behaviour comprehends these dynamics, our attempts to control the borderline through boundary setting may be of limited use (because although the boundary setting is a necessary tool, it may not have the outcome assumed by the analysis of a non borderline personality (abuse victim)'s logic).

Remember, a borderline's sense of "love" is constructed on negative emotion - the more it hurts the more they believe that their love for their abuse victim is heart felt and superior - and yet so tragically thanklessly and unrequited (because the victim can never prove their love to the same standard of suffering).

Hence another fruitless round. Drama created by borderline. Boundary set by abused victim. Borderline expectation not met. Borderline sense of martyrdom increases, therefore their righteousness is piqued. Victim's boundary setting may provide some relief but it is fuelling more distrust and disconnection NOT re-training the mind for he borderline to better behaviour at a later date.

The mistake of the victim, arguably, is to:

  • Continue to hope for a positive outcome and aspire to the relationship they want (it is NEVER going to happen!)
    Assume the borderline's responses will follow the same logical expectation as their own non borderline analysis (they NEVER will)
    Fail to realise that the setting of a boundary only creates a sense of rejection in the borderline that fuels the borderline's negative constructs
    Continually try\to fix the problem when you can't (you will NEVER fix the borderline's malaise - that MAY only happen, if at all, through highly skilled medical intervention and then only with the borderline's acceptance and acquiescence
    Continually submitting themselves and other family / friends / colleagues through unnecessary stress in an ultimately doomed attempt to do the right thing / live up to values, etc
    Failing to grasp the pervasive and deep impact of the borderlines behaviours ("grooming" on themselves and constant danger of falling back into the guilt trap   

On a personal note: my own ageing mother doesn't need to live closer to me. I am not qualified to help her medically. I have no legal responsibility for her welfare. I no longer even communicate with her (and have never been happier).

Of course I have a sense of values, which, (in ordinary circumstances), would command a sense of family / humanism, / ethical obligation (/ and maybe religious / spiritual compliance for some others)... .but at what point does a blind adherence to a blithely stated value become impractical (and in any case ultimately unproductive)!

Surely we have a duty to ourselves and or other family / friends... .not just (if at all) to the borderline family member who demands and manipulates constantly (and to whom we so meekly acquiesce to the profound detriment of ourselves and others).

It is a very personal opinion that I strongly suspect that one can never afford to engage on the emotional level with a borderline family member and pragmatism may be needed to temper a too literal interpretation of our personal values... .









 
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« Reply #20 on: May 20, 2017, 05:47:58 AM »

Basenji-

I thing you nailed it!

On a recent visit I experienced everything you said.

It's been as you described for as long as I can remember. She's been a helpless victim ( in her perspective) for decades. The difference now is that at her age she is frail and needs assistance but she seems to embellish it as well as thwart attempts to assist her.

She has access to qualified help yet hires untrained people and complains about their unprofessional behavior and their "taking advantage of her".

She has refused to let her adult children help her in an effective way ( sabotaging). Then paints us black to friends and family near her. They are horrified that her children don't help her so they step in to do that.

Like the character "Pig Pen" in the Peanuts comic strip who is surrounded by a cloud of his own dust- she is surrounded by drama and chaos of her own creation.

She's elderly but not completely helpless. One day visiting and she's asking me to give her her medicine, hold her hand every where, escort her to the bathroom in public. Would I do this for an elderly person? Yes of course- but she can do all these things on her own but was enjoying being "waited on ". Could I have said no?  Sure but for only one day it didn't seem worth the angst - and it's hard to assess what she can do and what she can't until you do it and see the satisfied smirk on her face when she knows she succeeded in fooling you.

She insists on owning a car she can't drive and relies on her helpers to drive her around. It was in the shop for repairs. She was talking about the car and stressed over it. Since my husband was with me, I realized it would be easy for us to get it since we could drive to the shop in one car and drive both cars back. This was something that would be difficult for her to do on her own. We were there and willing to do it.

So I said "mom if you call the shop to see if your car is ready we can go get it "

She came up with several excuses to not call. Then more excuses for us to not get it. Then eventually said "you call them " so I did. It was ready and we got it. Problem solved. She isn't able to drive but she can pick up the phone and wouldn't do that. I think she wanted the problem more than the solution.

Will she move nearer to me? I don't know. I do know I am not signing on for this chaos. I can't stop her from doing what she wants to do and she doesn't consider my feelings anyway. She gets a lot of mileage out of her poor thing her family doesn't help her position in terms of people feeling sorry for her and helping her which is an incentive to stay where she's at. Who knows, but this visit helps me not feel obligated to help her in an effective way- she doesn't really want that.


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« Reply #21 on: May 20, 2017, 06:06:46 AM »

It wasn't a big deal for us to get the car. I'm always happy to have a ride to pick up my car since it makes it easy. But she was reluctant and resistant to us doing this. It would have been more of a mess for her to do it on her own. She would need a helper to drive and maybe a cab to take them there. That's more chaos and she doesn't get to say " my children were here and they didn't even help get the car!"

I think I understand this better now.
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Turkish
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« Reply #22 on: May 21, 2017, 01:33:10 AM »

Quote from: Notwendy
She's elderly but not completely helpless. One day visiting and she's asking me to give her her medicine, hold her hand every where, escort her to the bathroom in public. Would I do this for an elderly person? Yes of course- but she can do all these things on her own but was enjoying being "waited on ".

This is,  of course,  the behavior reflective of a neglected child (long on an adult body).

I picked up on this with my own mother over a decade before I heard of BPD. It was frustrating especially when my mom "adopted" daughter after daughter,  and family after family, almost all toxic people.  All unhealthy in their own ways.  Splitting those who could help her,  while trusting those who obviously took advantage of her like your mother has done is maddening. I had to kick out the last family from her home about 12 years ago. It was bad. She spoke about adopting a 28 year old woman (with 4 kids), being in a "place of honor" at her wedding.  It felt like I was being disowned. Her baby daddy, 25 years the young woman's senior, dropped dead of a heart attack on her property.  Supposedly, the woman turned people in the church against my mother,  playing the victim.  Then I got the call for rescue... .

The dynamic with my uBPDx and my kids would arise a few years later.  Again,  her desire to be honored. Or valued. This goes back to the neglected child dynamic. 

Is there a way to honor our parents as parents without enabling the dynamic of becoming the avatar of the parent who neglected them so long ago? To quote Admiral Ackbar, "it's a trap!"

Is every person with BPD a "neglected child?" Is it a trap to validate that,  or realizing that,  is there a way to move forward without getting sucked into the Parent role, even though most of us did even as children?
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« Reply #23 on: May 21, 2017, 06:38:37 AM »

Turkish- you've identified something I've obsevered with my mother- a seemingly insatiable need to be honored, pampered, cared for, have people do for her. I don't mind helping people and I have been a mother to my kids. Yet when I am with my mother and being subtly manipulated to do these kinds of things it feels "icky". When my dad was sick and I did something helpful for him,  I didn't have this feeling.

My mother has also "adopted" toxic and chaotic people as friends. Shortly after my father died and she ( temporarily) disowned me she became friends with a woman my age - I wondered about a replacement daughter. There was a lot of dysfunction and chaos in this persons family.

I have often wondered about my mother being possibly neglected and or abused as a child. Her family was pretty well off. I know she had her material needs met.
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« Reply #24 on: May 21, 2017, 04:12:59 PM »

Why did you bring up the topic of getting her car ?
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« Reply #25 on: May 22, 2017, 06:02:50 AM »

She was concerned about how to get it. My father took care of this kind of thing when he was alive but I have taken care of my own car going to the shop. I know it can take two drivers to pick it up. I can ask my H, or someone else to take me to the shop to get mine - I do the same for them.

I saw this as an opportunity. Not so much as rescuing but as an offer- I would make this offer for a friend or anyone else. We were going out, there were two drivers- me, my H. So I said something like while we are out we can go by the car shop and get it.

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« Reply #26 on: May 22, 2017, 06:15:39 AM »

Dear Wendy,  your mom is very similar in ways to my mom. However my mom is lower functioning.   I have tried and tried to enforce boundaries with her and provide consequences but she NEVER learns.  She does not make the connection, almost treats them as a war to rage against everytime. She may start out trying to follow the rules but very quickly gets angry and feels very entitled and will challenge them to no end.    My mother has become vindictictive in addition to manipulative and you add delusional to the mix and pathological liar, well it does not end well.  My mother tried to force her rules on me and my family by punishing us with false Child abuse charges and police reports against me because I tried to set some boundaries with her when she moved by us when my dad died.  She wanted to engulf my whole life.  She wasresentful I had a husband, kids, job,even friends.  She wanted me to be her sevant 24 hrs a day and treated me like crap as I did it.  I am heartbreakingly no contact right now as I cannot figure out a way to keep boundaries in place with her.  This concept of her not caring or learning from consequences befuddles me.  I am a licensed social worker and none of my training has prepared me for this concept.  Most living things respond to behavior modification techniques to some respect, but not her.  I have driven myself crazy and borderline obsessed with trying to understand this.  I dont want to abandon her but having a relationship with her delusional self is potentially harmful to my family because of the things she resorts to when she doesnt get her way.  I feel sad and gulity because I would like to think I am a compassionate person.  I just wanted you to know you are not the only one who experiences this. I also belive my mom is queen, waif,witch type.  Her psychiatrist told me she was NPD, however I believe she iis both NPD and BPD mix.
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« Reply #27 on: May 22, 2017, 06:48:35 AM »

Your mother sounds a lot like mine! Mine lies as well so I am not certain if what she says is true or not. My mother is high functioning in terms of her ability to manipulate people but not in tasks of daily living. She has relied on help for as long as I can remember. Mostly my father did that but we kids had to do things for her as well. Since many elderly people her age need assistance- this has in a way normalized her situation.

I agree with you that most living things respond to behavior modification. When they do not- we then have to consider how a negative consequences has a possible reward. I think in the drama triangle the reward is victim mode for someone with BPD. A true victim is not responsible for what happened. When I think of true victims- I think of something like child abuse- the child is not responsible. However as you know in a lot of interpersonal drama between adults, true victims are rare- most are responsible for their behavior to some extent.

The payoff for victim position is a perception of not being responsible. Behavior is not connected to consequence. Maybe this is why there is no learning from it.

During this visit my mother presented a dilemma that we could help with- the car- yet she resisted the offer to help. I realized this could be why trying to help her feels crazy. If we do help effectively- it takes her out of victim mode. This is hard and sad to see, but it seemed that in our interactions she finds some way to get to that.
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« Reply #28 on: May 22, 2017, 07:08:03 AM »

Excerpt
She was concerned about how to get it

Would you consider not offering help in the future, unless asked for ?

Excerpt
Not so much as rescuing but as an offer- I would make this offer for a friend or anyone else.

I know what you mean and I would do the same for a friend, but problem here of course is, this is not a friend, it's your BPD mum... .so what would be a normal friendly offer in a normal situation can become 'rescuing' here.

How about, *if* your mum expresses concern for something, telling her 'Yeah, I understand this could feel like a problem for you. If you have concrete suggestions I can help you with, you can let me know, and I will see what I can do.'

Anything you came up with yourself, will probably only have the effect of her feeling like she's in 'victim mode'.
  Anyway, I think even if she asked you to do something concrete and you do it, it will put her in victim mode too. But then at least there is a little less energy wasted for you, and you risk less to feel treated as the villain.

What do you think ?
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« Reply #29 on: May 22, 2017, 07:30:08 AM »

I think you are correct Fie- and it is a lesson I decided after thinking about what happened.

It is so reflexive to jump in to help her. My sibs and I took on this role since we were very young.

I have noticed that even small attempts to help or advice can be triggering to her and I have worked to not doing this.

I plan to work on being more aware to not offer help. It's tough- both because of family patterns and that she is elderly and something like picking up the car is hard for any elderly person. But in her situation I need to let her decide what to do.

( why she insists on owning a car she can't drive is a whole other story- but we accepted long ago that she can do what she wants with her own money. But cars are also a responsibility we need to let her deal with ) 
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