The difference between what I want and what I'm willing to accept

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

I have set a goal of completing a letter to my BPDh outlining what changes I want to see before I would be willing to end our separation.  I would like to have it to work through with my T at my next appointment on Monday morning.

For someone who is normally not at a loss for words, this assignment has me stumped.  I keep running up against the bare minimum expectations that I feel are biblically supported (no unrepentant infidelity or other chronic, unrepented sins against me), the change that I want (a husband I feel I can trust to not abuse me, and to care for my physical, emotional, and spiritual well-being, even when it requires that he put aside his own comfort), and the idealized dream that I feel I can't even hope for (the kind of husband who would lay down his life for me and love me the way that Christ loved the church). 

My gut keeps coming back to the bare minimum of "No physical intimacy when I don't feel safe, and I won't listen to any F.O.G.ing about it".  I think "I can set boundaries.  I can refuse to participate in the disregulation.  I can build a good solid wall around my heart so that the words don't hurt so much."  And then I just want to cry.  THIS is what I am willing to accept?  A life of constantly defending and protecting myself from the person who I thought was going to love and protect me?  And I feel trapped by my beliefs, because I can't find a way out of that kind of "marriage" without going against what I believe God has asked of me.

So that's where I am.  Anyone have any ideas of how to get over this "writer's block"?

[BeagleGirl]

I have set a goal of completing a letter to my BPDh outlining what changes I want to see before I would be willing to end our separation.  I would like to have it to work through with my T at my next appointment on Monday morning.

For someone who is normally not at a loss for words, this assignment has me stumped.  I keep running up against the bare minimum expectations that I feel are biblically supported (no unrepentant infidelity or other chronic, unrepented sins against me), the change that I want (a husband I feel I can trust to not abuse me, and to care for my physical, emotional, and spiritual well-being, even when it requires that he put aside his own comfort), and the idealized dream that I feel I can't even hope for (the kind of husband who would lay down his life for me and love me the way that Christ loved the church). 

My gut keeps coming back to the bare minimum of "No physical intimacy when I don't feel safe, and I won't listen to any F.O.G.ing about it".  I think "I can set boundaries.  I can refuse to participate in the disregulation.  I can build a good solid wall around my heart so that the words don't hurt so much."  And then I just want to cry.  THIS is what I am willing to accept?  A life of constantly defending and protecting myself from the person who I thought was going to love and protect me?  And I feel trapped by my beliefs, because I can't find a way out of that kind of "marriage" without going against what I believe God has asked of me.

So that's where I am.  Anyone have any ideas of how to get over this "writer's block"?

[GaGrl]

Do you assess that your husband end t Fred the marriage as a Holy Union? This is how many churches define the terms of true marriage g e vs. A marriage under false pretenses e s.

Are you defining your marriage based on your intent when you enter t e r ed it? What was his intent?

[DearHusband]

BG,

Why don't you start with your ideal relationship and then distill it down to the essentials? Good luck,

DH

[DaddyBear77]

BeagleGirl, can I ask you, for whom are you PRIMARILY writing this letter? For him or for yourself?

[BeagleGirl]

DaddyBear,
Excellent question. I would say that the impetus for writing the letter started out as me wanting to address his "If I only knew what she wanted from me, I'd do it" statement that he's made to friends, family, therapist, and pastor.

Now... .I don't know.

Part of me keeps coming back to the story of the rich young ruler. He asked Jesus what he must do to gain eternal life. When Jesus said "obey all the commandments", he said "Already doing that". But Jesus knew his heart and said "Then go sell all you own and give the proceeds to the poor and follow me."  And the man went away sad because he knew he loved himself and his comfort more than the promise of eternity.  I feel like if I could find the words that reveal to BPDh that it's not about following a list of do's and don'ts, maybe he would either walk away or understand what is really required of him to regain and retain my trust.

Then I realize that it's been 20+ years and I've never found the words or, if he had been the rich young man, he would have stood there and JADEd Jesus. I don't know that BPDh could understand what I'm asking of him. Maybe I'm just trying (again) to play the role of Holy Spirit.

So I guess the letter would be for me. It would be the standard that I would hold up and say "Here's what I want. Either give it to me and win me back, or stop playing the victim and admit that you love your self and your comfort more than you want a marriage."  But then I get all tangled up in my mind with the idea that I have no right to demand that he love me. That demand makes MY love conditional, the pinnacle of hypocrisy. But I have this ache in me that wants more than a life of endurance and guarding my heart.

So long answer... .The letter would be for me.

[dealingwithit]

Boy, do I get it. I've been watching some videos on Youtube about Christian Abuse. It's been an eye-opener for me. One of the quotes was "God hates divorce, but He hates abuse more." They teach about how Jesus treated women. Some believe that abuse is unfaithfulness. These have been really helpful for me to see my value before God and not continue to reflect or mirror my husband's value of me. Unfortunately, I don't think this is going to change so I'm on my own journey of decision.

[Grey Kitty]

My gut keeps coming back to the bare minimum [... .] And then I just want to cry.  THIS is what I am willing to accept?
[... .]
I can't find a way out of that kind of "marriage" without going against what I believe God has asked of me.

Since right now, you are writing the letter for yourself, what about doing it in two parts:

Part 1: What you believe God asked of you.

Write the things you need and want which are biblically supported.

Part 2: What you need or want, that isn't biblically supported, or you aren't sure that it is.

Write all the things you truly want in a partner, all the things that giving up on make you want to cry. Don't let these things that have your heart crying go unheard and forgotten.

Also don't let yourself leave things off just because your husband will deny, misinterpret, or just be oblivious about them--they matter to YOU. Start by working on what you want and need before you worry about whether you can communicate it to him successfully or not, and how... .


... .once you get it all down, only then do you figure out where to draw a line between needs and wants... .and resolve any conflicts between what your religion and your heart if there are any. And figure out if you need to change it before you can give it to your husband.

[formflier]

Here is the thing... .write it to the husband that you would want a daughter to have.  (I can't remember if you have daughters... I know there are children)

Only talk about principles.

A man who is sexually pure with his wife or a man whose sexual focus is on his wife.

If you try to get specific... .then pwBPD will find ways or loopholes around it.  Put your hope in a principle and leaders to help your hubby examine a principle next to his actions. 

If he really... really... .really is wanting to impress you with his sexual purity... .it will come from a "principle"... vice a set of rules.

I'm kinda writing as a I think... .stick with me here.

I'm guessing you are familiar with the "put off and put on" view of getting past sin... .correct?

So... .put a principle down for how you see your hubby operating now (very... .very general) and then the principle you wish him to chase (stay general... broad).

It's fine to write one for yourself... .but I think one needs to be written for him.

When he reads it and says... but I don't understand... what does that mean... .?  You are not the one to answer... .he'll find the answer on his knees and in the office of a pastor.

Hope this helps get things moving.

FF

[BeagleGirl]

All,
Your advice has been really helpful.

GK,
You're right, I do need to put down the things that I really long for. 

FF,
Thank you for reminding me that I can let go of being the one to explain what the broad principles mean.  I really do hope that he finds the answers on his knees, but at minimum I can rely on our pastor and a number of men that I know will point him in the right direction.  I also believe (and pray) that they will have the discernment to see when he is shirking his responsibilities to go to God and act upon the guidance that has been provided.

I'm still hoping to get something written up by Monday morning.  I'll post a draft of it here for feedback.

BG

[formflier]

A broad principle of "A man that puts his family's needs before his own"... ."sacrificial leadership"... .etc etc should cover some of your concerns about physical intimacy.

I'll see if I can spend some time in the word, perhaps even song of Solomon and find passages that might help.
 
In the letter for yourself... .it would likely be helpful to talk details.  That way they are handy when and if you need to privately give details to those helping point your hubby in the right direction.

Just had a thought... "Love is patient... ." 1 Corinthians 13:4-7 can be turned into a principle.

FF

[BeagleGirl]

Like all true procrastinators, I've waited for the looming deadline to be on top of me before writing up my "What I want" list.  Good thing it's MY deadline. 

I know this is a work in progress and can use some distilling.  I figured out by the middle of page two of my writing that all but the first paragraph of page 1 can probably be discarded.  Page 2 is where I started to cry, so I think that's a good gauge on where I started to get past the surface stuff.  So here is the first distillation of my musings (which probably aren't done, but... .deadline).


I want a man I can trust.  I want to be able to trust his faithfulness to me; mind, body, and spirit.  I want to be able to trust that he has my best interest at heart and will choose my best interest over his comfort and immediate gratification.  I want to be able to trust that he will rely on the Holy Spirit to guide when conflict arises between what I want and what he wants.  I want to trust him to be open enough to allow the Holy Spirit to convict or affirm actions when he see hurt or withdrawal on my part.  I want to trust that he would be my defender against slander and harsh criticism and would present me in the best possible light to my parents and children.

I want a man whose priorities really are God, me, our children, his work, our friends/family…… in that order.  I want a man who can feel the pull of “lesser” responsibilities without compromising those priorities.  I want a man who is creative in looking for ways to care for the higher priorities while taking care of the lower ones, but can recognize when lower priorities start to crowd out the higher ones and course correct.  I want a man who puts higher value on his “reputation” with God and his family than his boss/colleagues/friends/family.  I want him to live a life that is more likely to be remembered as “He was a Godly man who loved his wife and left a legacy in Godly children” than “He was a great guy who was always there for anyone in need”.

I want a man who thinks I am beautiful and precious.  I want a man who delights in me.  I want a man who loves my mind and is thrilled by the way it works.  I want a man who is intellectually stimulated and stimulating in conversation and wants to share and debate new topics with me.  I want a man who “gets” my jokes and can take them to the next level.  I want a man who feels I light up a room for others as well as him and is willing to share me with others.  I want a man who wants to be around me and chooses to be around me.  I want a man who jumps on board with my “hair-brained” ideas because he knows it will be a fun ride.  I want a man who sparks my imagination and creativity and sits back and watches for the pure joy of seeing me light up. 

I want a man who can see when I’m struggling and will wrap his arms and love around me to keep me safe.  I want a man who knows when I’m broken and will help me pick up the pieces and put them back together.  I want a man who thinks the best place for me when I’m in pain is in his arms.  I want a man who understands how to give me space without leaving me alone.  I want a man who will see when a load is too heavy for me and come along side and share it or even help me let go of it so he or someone else can carry it.  I want a man who knows I’m strong enough to push an El Camino or carry a couch, but still treats me as if I’m fragile enough to be hurt by a word.

I want a man who can correct me with love; who doesn’t use disappointment as a weapon.  I want a man who can see my flaws in context and can tell which ones need to be addressed.  I want a man who can provide perspective without losing sight of my perspective. 

I want a man who has his own calling and ministry, but wants to take part in mine and include me in his.  I want a man who studies (not just reads) the Bible, is changed by the insights given to him, and wants to share those discoveries with me.  I want a man who, when confronted with difficulties, goes to the Bible, prayer, and Godly counsel and persists until he gets an answer, no matter how long it takes.  I want a man who recognizes that God provides guidance, but ultimately gives free will that requires decision/action on his part.  I want a man who humbly accepts the responsibility he has been given to lead me and our children spiritually.  I want a man who treats my sin with the same unyielding but loving truth that God does.  I want a man who can trust God to take care of the things that he is powerless to change and find peace in that trust.

Feedback welcome.
BG

[formflier]

OK... this is obviously stressful to write... .I've written similar things.

You want a letter to have power and focus... and clarity.

Take a break... .then sit back down in a couple of hours and cut out half the words... .keep the same focus.

Too many words gets in the way of the "message"... .you are not "explaining" details... .you are focusing on broad principles.

FF

[Grey Kitty]

  I'm really proud of you for getting through all the tears and continuing to write.

  Let me say that you are worthy of a man like that.


Now the really tough question. From how you describe your marriage, your husband lived up to at most 5% of that, if any of it. He probably has said he wants to be that man, or that he thinks he is that man, but it doesn't look that way to me.

Do you think your husband has any chance of becoming that man?

[BeagleGirl]

FF,
A little clarification - this isn't anywhere near the version I would give BPDh.  For now this is about figuring out what I'm wanting/needing.  I agree that he needs very few words.  I, on the other hand, need LOTS of words. 

GK,
Short answer to whether BPDh could be what I want - No.  I think it's a pretty tall order for any mere mortal.   

As I told my therapist today, it would take an act of God for my BPDh to start fulfilling the desires I have listed (she agrees) and another act of God for me to trust the changes enough to go back to they type of marriage relationship I want with him.  Frankly, my trust issues are going to be something I need to deal with in any relationship, but BPDh is starting in a hole so deep that it will take a LOT of evidence, prayers, time, people I trust seeing the change and continuing to reassure me, tears, more prayers, more evidence, and daily miracles to get back to a sure footing of trust.  Good news for BPDh, I still believe in God.  Bad news for BPDh, I have a number of trusted friends, therapist, and pastor, all confirming that he is not changing.  I also have clear behaviors that have come up with each interaction that act as red flags and solidify my confidence that I know what I can expect if I go back prematurely.

So today is another day when I feel like I'm doing the right thing.  My therapist stressed a lot that, even though I don't desire or enjoy my husband, I am still loving my husband through this separation.  I am giving him a chance to learn and grow and be the man he can and should be.

She had what may be her last session with BPDh about a week ago.  She confronted him with the question ":)o you really want to be a husband?".  What she hears from him is that he wants me to come back and support him financially and fulfill his sexual needs.  She hears him putting himself in the role of the victim rather than stepping up to the challenge of showing that he can care for himself.  He has shown a pattern of scheduling appointments a month out rather than 2 weeks out when he doesn't like what she says.  He didn't schedule a return appointment at all after this last session.  He may feel that it's an unnecessary expense now that he is going to DBT, but I find it telling.

My therapist also reiterated that it's possible that BPDh will "attach the feeding tube" to someone else, but any infidelity on his part will still be my fault in his eyes.  Sadly, that idea is comforting rather than frightening to me.  Just more evidence of how big a hole God would need to fill for me to be ready/willing to enter back into relationship with BPDh even if he does change.

I'll end this post here, but I have had some experiences with my dad this week that have also been enlightening.  I'll post about them later.

BG

[formflier]

  My therapist stressed a lot that, even though I don't desire or enjoy my husband, I am still loving my husband through this separation.  I am giving him a chance to learn and grow and be the man he can and should be.

  She confronted him with the question ":)o you really want to be a husband?".  

I would challenge you or at least ask you to discuss with your T if it is better for you to "think" that you are doing something for him... ."giving him a chance"... .vice being authentic and have your words match your actions.

I understand that in reality you are doing both.  For most of us on here, we have made decisions based on how someone else "feels" or "what they need" and our own needs come up some other time... later.

Our relationships generally improve when we start taking care of ourselves first and communicating clearly... .with words and actions.

You seem to have been telling him for a long time that things are not ok in the marriage... .and he didn't seem to listen, yet you stayed... .so maybe he didn't have an incentive to listen.

Now... .the message is clearer and stronger... .things aren't right... .your actions and words match.

Regarding him scheduling appointments... .do you guys have a clear understanding about this?  If not... .please DO NOT read tea leaves... .

Yeah... .FF is going to "go there" again... .of course I am, I'm a structure guy.  A TS would likely have clear expectations for how often each of you will be in T.

If he agrees to that, in writing, and doesn't do it... .that would be telling.  If there is no clear agreement about scheduling, it could mean any one of a million things... .you won't figure it out.

FF

[BeagleGirl]

I watched my dad hurt my mom this weekend.  Over lunch after church on Sunday he made a very clear and pointed comment to my S18 about how fat my mom's arms were.  It was totally out of the blue and had no purpose, other than humiliating my mom.  Thinking back, my dad has done stuff like this in the past.  I guess I was desensitized to it.  Now, I have a better understanding of why my dad doesn't see what BPDh does as "that bad".  It makes me hurt, angry, and sad.

I allowed the comment to pass and didn't say anything about it to either my mom or dad that afternoon.  I'm not sure if I should.  What I do think I should do is talk to S18 about how inappropriate and hurtful that was, and enforce that comments like that are what kill relationships. 

BG

[formflier]

I think very few of us... if any, are swift enough to catch things like that, the first time they happen, in a way that we are proud of.

The point is that we are now at a place in our lives where we think things through with a lens on as to what is a good move for a relationship.

This is less about your Dad and Mom and it's more about S18.  Yes... .talk to him privately about it AND be  ready for the next time.

I don't know enough about you and your Dad's r/s to say if you should approach him or not.  What do you think?

I am certain that next time it happens in your presence that you speak up, state the value you are teaching S18 and ask for support.  Your Dad and Mom have picked their path... .don't try to change that course, it's not your place (outside your boundaries).

S18 is firmly INSIDE your boundaries.  This is a place for "momma bear" to stand up for s18.

Reference Notwendy's story about her children and her Mom.  Very... .very powerful.

Again... .don't beat yourself up for one sec that you "missed this one"... .you didn't.  You weren't ready but you DID notice.  That is huge.

So... .fast forward to the future.  Same thing happens... .your Dad says something, you see the hurt/confusion in S18's eyes... .what do you do/say?

FF

[Grey Kitty]

Short answer to whether BPDh could be what I want - No.  I think it's a pretty tall order for any mere mortal.   

Being all that is a tall order for a mortal.

Genuinely striving to do all that, and succeeding most of the time... .that is very possible.

BPDh probably won't manage that either, but believe me, there are plenty of men who would and do!

I allowed the comment to pass and didn't say anything about it to either my mom or dad that afternoon.  I'm not sure if I should.  What I do think I should do is talk to S18 about how inappropriate and hurtful that was, and enforce that comments like that are what kill relationships.

As a parent, talking to S18 sounds right. 

Addressing it with either of your parents... .probably not. My parents have some really unhealthy patterns that they've been doing for (I suspect!) my entire life. That's not gonna change easily! One reason I know this is that a few years back, my wife decided to try, and nothing good came of it.

When there is an abusive pattern, the only thing which will stop it is when the abused person decides to protect themself and enforce boundaries. When they are ready to do it, and not before. People on the outside can't do very much about it.

If you doubt this, think about members here... .how they struggle in this exact fight, sometimes for years, and that is after they have acknowledged that it is happening. Or think about how long it took you to realize what your husband's abuse was doing to you, and step away from it.

[formflier]

What do you think you will say to S18?

What principles will you discuss?

My parents have ways of relating that I don't like.  Especially now that I know better.

Likely I will never mention it to them.  It works for them.  Plus... .after over 50 years of marriage, they do seem genuinely happy and content.  They focus on time with grandkids and keeping their health up.

It's mainly finishing each other's sentences and cutting each other off abruptly with let's talk about it later.  Sometimes it's jarring to me.  I am likely oversensitive.

They are obviously comfortable and enmeshed with each other... .good on them.

[Lucky Jim]

So today is another day when I feel like I'm doing the right thing.  My therapist stressed a lot that, even though I don't desire or enjoy my husband, I am still loving my husband through this separation.  I am giving him a chance to learn and grow and be the man he can and should be.

Hey BG, I like the way you put that, which indicates self-acceptance and self-love to me.

Presumably you are familiar with the parable of the five talents?  For some reason, it comes to mind as I read your posts.  Jesus got angry with the guy who buried his talents.  I guess I admire your courage to be yourself and would encourage you to avoid "burying" your talents.

LuckyJim

[BeagleGirl]

Lucky Jim,
I'm very familiar with the parable of the five talents.  I even used it to try to illustrate to BPDh the difference between taking a stance of inaction (his justification for which being that he didn't want to do something that hurt me) and loving action.  I don't remember the exact circumstances surrounding the discussion, but I find the "word pictures" of the parables coming up often in my interactions with him.  For a long time it's been the story (not parable) of the rich young ruler that has helped me understand what he is doing and what a Christ-like response could be.

FF,
I'm thinking I will ask S18 if he remembers the incident and how he saw it.  I will share how I saw the incident (my dad pointing out to S18 my mother's fat arms with a snide remark that he considered "funny" followed by my mom mentioning that she does need to lose weight) and the way I would have felt in my mom's position (humiliated and hurt) and the impact that could have on her and their relationship (mom experiencing shame and pain and not being able to trust and be vulnerable with my dad).  S18 is pretty insightful, so I'm prepared to take the conversation further if he is open.  My dad talks a lot about my mom's hoarding behaviors.  I don't know if S18 could/would draw the connection between my dad's emotional abuse of her and the coping mechanisms she uses (hoarding and overeating). 

GK and FF,
I agree that talking with either of both of my parents would likely not be productive, especially since they both see their decision to endure the hurts of the other in their marriage rather than separate as something that I should strive for.

I probably didn't do my relationship with my mom any favors this morning.  I know she cares about BPDh, me, and our marriage (and of course the grandkids).  I know it hurts her to see us hurting.  So I understand why she wants to help.  Her form of helping is to send verses that God lays on her heart.  That part can ruffle my feathers a little if I let it (You know mom, I actually talk to God and read the Bible myself, but I guess if He has special messages to send through you... .) but I remind myself that she doesn't know how else to help and this is an act of love.  The thing that I did finally put a boundary around is that I asked her not to send them in a group text to both me and BPDh, but that I would welcome them in an individual text.  This is kind of like the way I feel about her always asking how things are going in my marriage or with BPDh rather than asking how I am doing.  It also makes it harder for me to focus on what she is saying God laid on her heart when I'm wondering what BPDh thinks about it and whether the message was for me or for BPDh or both (I kind of feel like God might not always have the same messages for us at this point in time).

Anyways, mom has reacted badly to boundaries I've set in the recent past.  I asked her to not criticize what S14 chooses to wear to church in front of him - let me deal with anything that I feel is inappropriate and if she must say something, come to me when he is not around.  This inspired a morning of pouting then going to BPDh to talk about how I had hurt her.  Can you say "triangulation"? so I would not be surprised if this request will have her feeling like I'm pushing away her and God as well as BPDh.  I guess that if she reacts poorly then it's another opportunity to practice letting go of the desire to please and fix the relationship.

So I'm looking forward to getting out of town on a 27 hour business trip.  Although, just to add to the drama in my life, I found out that my former affair partner was potentially staying at the same hotel as me tomorrow night.  I felt it justifiable to have minimal contact to make sure that didn't happen and he's changing to a different hotel. 

Throw in the stress I have from STILL not being moved from my current apartment to another unit (the city told my complex management that the needed to move me "immediately" so I spent the night before my vacation packing up my apartment so everything could be moved while I was gone, only to find that they didn't do anything while I was gone because they "weren't allowed to".  After daily back and forth they are moving me Thursday... .while I'm out of town again.  Evidently it's okay with THIS moving company.  They have also been trying to get me to sign a lease for the new unit that is back dated to the day they informed me that I was going to be moved and keep making "mistakes" on each new copy of the lease (always suspiciously causing me to owe more money) and refusing to set up an appointment so I can sit down and get it all sorted out.  I informed them during all the drama over the lease during my vacation that I would be moving out at the end of June, and I'm starting to feel like they might as well not move me (I'm living out of boxes and my suitcase) but there's the whole "the city told us we have to move you" thing.

Now that I write about all this, I'm wondering if God would like to strike me with premature menopause just to make me feel a little closer to being Jobett. 

[formflier]

FF,
I'm thinking I will ask S18 if he remembers the incident and how he saw it.  

 

You have the basic approach right.  Let him and his view stay in the limelight for at least a day... .unless of course he says something completely wacky... which is unlikely.

I would think it best if you can listen to his point of view... .a bit of reflecting back to make sure you have it... .and then let that be it.  If he seems into talking... .keep going. 

However, before you suggest an alternative... .or "correct" his point of view... .I'd wait a day.  Let his version stand for a while... .there is no rush.

FF

[Grey Kitty]

  You are starting to describe things that both of your parents do to you and each other, which are boundary busting behaviors, and are much milder versions of things your husband has done.

There may be something which explains how you got where you are, what led you to accept an abusive marriage for so many years.

I probably didn't do my relationship with my mom any favors this morning.
[... .]
Anyways, mom has reacted badly to boundaries I've set in the recent past.

You could just as easily say that your mom didn't do her relationship with you any favors this morning. Yes, you are managing it pretty well, and yes, I'm sure that there are many very good things about your r/s with your parents as well. Just the same, what she did wasn't good or helpful.

And they are showing you that their support of you around your problems in your marriage is conditional--they are supporting you as long as you are making the marriage work, but their support pretty much evaporates when they think you are choosing or considering separation/divorce.

I've suggested that you ask directly for the kind of support you want--which means not pushing you to reconcile with BPDh, as that isn't what you need today.

And if they make it clear that they cannot give you that kind of support... .time to enforce some boundaries, and stop discussing your marriage with them.

[formflier]

I think Beagle girls observations about her parents show that "these things" happen on a spectrum and that many of "these things" might work and be ok for people in some relationships and might not work for others.

For instance, some couples might be secure enough in their love and relationship for each other than "they just say it" and then clean up any issues later.  If that works for them... .then great.  We all know that most pwBPD aren't much for "cleaning up later" for booboos in a r/s... .especially ones they are responsible for.

I do think there is a point here that Beagle should talk to her therapist about.  How she got "conditioned" to not notice this for a long time and what is a reasonable response to Beagle's new knowledge.

For a long time a pattern in my r/s was that my wife would try to "become my size equal" by raising her voice to match my size, when she felt I was too domineering.  I'm over double her weight.

I had no perception that I was raising my voice.  I was "being direct".  Honestly I wasn't yelling, but it was no longer conversational and certainly wasn't "friendly".

So... .a reasonable course of action for me was to be deliberate about "speaking softly".   In my mind it was "too soft" but I did it anyway.  Turns out it was "about right" when I thought it was too soft.

It's now a bit more automatic that I consider the tone and volume of my voice.

Anyway... .I'm very glad that Beagle is noticing these things  What to do with them is a separate matter.  Step 1 is to start seeing things... .especially uncomfortable things, and to start thinking through what to do about them.

FF

[BeagleGirl]

So I've been thinking... .

I would like to give my dad the option to be the one to tell S18 that what he did was hurtful and wrong.  If he chooses not to, then I can do as planned (incorporating FF's suggestion that I give S18 some time to think about what he saw and he felt about it before introducing my thoughts and feelings).  I think that having the discussion with my dad would help dad see that I am placing a boundary around what is acceptable treatment of my mom in front of my kids (I now have a plan for how to handle similar situations if they arise in front of me and am prepared to coach S18 through a respectful confrontation of this type of behavior if he is interested).  It would also be an opportunity for my dad to demonstrate humility, confession, and reconciliation to S18.  If he chooses not to take that opportunity, it also helps me better understand where he stands.

So what do you think?  I know the communication between myself and my dad would need to be solid for this to work, so here's what I was thinking:

Dad, I'd like to describe for you an interaction that I saw between you and S18 at the restaurant on Sunday and see if you remember it the way I do.

As I remember it, you looked at S18, grabbed mom's upper arm and said "Look how strong grandma is getting".  It was clear to me that you were being sarcastic and were actually indicating that mom is fat.  I believe that was the message that came across to her as well, since her response was "I've been meaning to lose weight". 

Give dad the chance to respond as to whether he remembers it that way or not.  Listen.  Listen.  Listen.
Assuming dad remembers close enough to the same scenario and doesn't get to my next point on his own:

That kind of treatment of mom in front of me and my sons is not acceptable to me.  I hope that it's not acceptable to you either, since it was unloving, hurtful, and humiliating.  I want my sons to understand the impact of their actions and words on people they love and hope that they will not act out the type of behavior that you displayed.  If you are in agreement that what you did was not something you want your grandsons to mimic in their relationships, I think it would be an incredibly powerful lesson for them to hear from you that you recognize that what you did was wrong and what you are doing to make it right.

If you do not want to talk with S18 about what he saw, then I will plan to do so.  It is very important to me that my sons do not think it is acceptable to hurt and humiliate people.  The incident in the restaurant caught me off guard, but in the future, I will be modeling for my sons a respectful confrontation of unacceptable behavior.

Other than "too many words" (FF's voice is in my head), what do you think?

[Grey Kitty]

I would like to give my dad the option to be the one to tell S18 that what he did was hurtful and wrong.

Doesn't sound like a good idea to me.

Your dad doesn't seem to get that what he did was wrong.

He's your parent, not your child--it isn't your job to reform him, fix him, or even show him his failings like this. (Although your desire to accomplish this is very real and legit!)

And it *IS* your job to raise S18. To teach S18 that this isn't the way to treat your spouse/partner.

Are you doing that job if you try to badger your dad into doing it for you? Especially if you don't think he's sincere and don't think he gets it?

[formflier]

(FF's voice is in my head),  

   

       

What was that... .wait... .there it is again... .that voice!  


OK... .seriously.

BAD IDEA... .

Another FF voice... .take an idea you have... .drive it back to the big picture and see if you "violate" any "big picture" rules.

Creating triangles is not necessarily a violation... .but it ALWAYS is a complication.  When there is dysfunction, a triangle EXPONENTIALLY increases the chances of "nothing good will come of this" (my nod to GK)

Use boundaries.

You are in charge of raising your son... regardless of what your parents do.  Have a "direct" relationship with him.  

If you choose... .have a direct relationship with your parents.  

Trying to "control" your parents to tell your son the right thing that is "acceptable" to you to "illustrate" what your parents did wrong in order to give "parental instruction" to you son... .is... .well... .a mess.  Creating a mess to parent your child is not a good idea.

Whew... .I need a glass of water... .and a break...  

Listen... .it would be a great idea for the person that said something "wrong" to "clarify" things with your son... .there are lots of moving parts to make that happen.  You had a great idea.  It is unlikely it will ever happen.

Next... .to my "parenting" idea.

It comes from some extensive family therapy from several years back.  The general guidance was... unless it is an extreme emergency... .listen to and "understand" your kids point of view without interruption or correction (no alternate views).  This is supposed to reinforce that their point of view is important and you (the parent) are a listener and can be trusted... .vice always being a "correcter" or "parent".

Then... .the next day you kinda say "Hey Johnny... .remember when we were talking about the way grandpa talked to grandma.  You might want to think about xyz... . :)o you think that would be better?
Anway... .as you can see Johnny... .relationships take work and you really need to think about how your words affect other people.  Love you pal... .let's talk more at dinner."

Basically... .let your kid have knowledge gaps.  Fill those in slowly... .if you can fill those in without your kid feeling "corrected" or that his original idea was "wrong"... .all the better.

FF

[BeagleGirl]

I imagine that FF may sometimes hear a Charlie Brown teacher-like voice droning on and on in his head.  He can now call that the BG voice. 

Thank you FF and GK.  Your insight is well spoken and taken to heart.  I have more than a bit of control freak in me and am still learning to resist the urge to DO/SAY SOMETHING when I feel like things are broken around me.  BG must remember that she must focus on fixing things broken inside of her. 

To pat myself on the back, I think both my parents are noticing that I am quieter.  I choose not to participate in the "How sad is it that xyz is doing abc.  I told xyz that if only they would do cba then they would be so much better off" conversations that they (especially my mom) tend towards.  Nor am I telling them to do cba, or pointing out the hypocrisy of them trying to correct the abc in other's lives when they are the king and/or queen of abc.  So BG is sitting with eyes open and mouth shut (for the most part).  Though I do still have the inner BG voice shouting "POT CALLING KETTLE BLACK.  POT IS BLACK.  POT IS BLACK.  POT IS BLACK." through many of those conversations.   

BG will stop referring to herself in third person now.

[formflier]

Thank you FF and GK.  Your insight is well spoken and taken to heart.  I have more than a bit of control freak in me and am still learning to resist the urge to DO/SAY SOMETHING when I feel like things are broken around me.  BG must remember that she must focus on fixing things broken inside of her. 
 

Control freak is actually good.  I'm one as well.  Add checklist person to that.  While Naval Aviators might present themselves to the world as a loosey goosey wild bunch... .we're mostly control freaks.  Sure... .we break the rules... .but we control that.

For pwBPD purposes... and relationships... .let your control freak tell you "I wish this person would abc... ."

Then... go through a checklist

1.  Am I responsible for this person (your son)
2.  Am I in a relationship with this person (your hubby... .and to lesser extent your parents)
3.  Is this in anyway within my boundaries.

then... .

1.  What is the best chance to get this person to do abc... .

Apply you knowledge and see what happens.  Note:  It will usually be a longer route than what you used to do... .to get that person to do abc.  And if they don't... .you'll let them enjoy... or experience... .the results of their decisions.

FF

[Grey Kitty]

Hey, BG, I just wanna acknowledge what you are going through with your parents:

You are seeing some of the long-standing dysfunctional or destructive patterns that they have. Ones that you probably grew up with as unspoken rules, so they are almost invisible.

That's tough to see, when the unfairness/hypocrisy/injustice becomes visible.

And it is tough to stop yourself from jumping in and doing something, about it, NOW!

Pick your battles, 'tho. I think getting your parents to support you in the (likely, or at least possible) ending of your marriage, rather than supporting BPDh and your marriage against your own needs/interests is far more timely.

[BeagleGirl]

I survived the weekend from h3ll.

I don't remember how much of my apartment drama I've shared about, but between Wednesday and Friday of last week everything came to a head.  LOTS of stress from that.  I was able to manage the required contact with former affair partner so it was minimal, but that had its own emotional drain.  Top that off with the residual/ongoing stress with BPDh and my parents and I was pretty low by Thursday night.  BPDh was supposed to take the day off work Friday and take the boys on an outing.  I texted him Friday morning to see if I might have some time with them in the evening only to find out the S14 had decided he didn't want to go on the outing and hadn't been talking since Wed. night.  BPDh decided to go to work Friday since I could go be with the boys.  S14 has had his "funks" where he mopes and doesn't say much.  I've talked with him about it and how it's not okay for him to walk around making sure everyone knows he's not happy but not giving them the opportunity to help.  We've been able to manage those times pretty well. 

Well, this weekend was the mother of all silent treatments from him.  BPDh didn't know what to do with him, so happily said "It's your weekend to have them".  S18 did what he could, but his offers of "do you want to talk" were met with the same silent treatment.  I took away electronic devices until S14 was willing to give me one word about how he was feeling and tell me one person he would be willing to talk to.  He not only didn't talk, I caught him using an old iPhone that S18 had forgotten he had to access the internet.  S14 is rarely defiant, so this was just upping the ante.  I gave him "reasonable" alone time (an hour or two during the day), but also required that he take the dogs on walks, mow the lawn, and participate in whatever S18 and I were doing.  I didn't beg for him to talk and did my best to go on about our lives as if what he was doing wasn't tearing me up inside.  I did print out the Wikipedia definition of "Silent Treatment" for him to read, because I wanted him to be aware that what he was doing was manipulative, controlling, and fell into the category of abusive.

I sent S18 to stay with BPDh Saturday night so that I would be the only one dealing with S14 that night and getting ready for church.  Some time in the middle of the night I heard him up getting a paper towel.  I told him where the Kleenex were, he got one, and went back to bed (I'm in a one room apartment, so he sleeps on a trundle right next to me).  I'm not sure if he was crying.  I just rested my hand on his shoulder and told him I loved him and went back to sleep.  This was the first time all weekend he didn't pull away.

Sunday morning I woke him up to get ready for church and asked if he was ready to talk.  He nodded.  I asked what his one word for his feelings was and he said "angry".  He wasn't volunteering more information so I asked if he wanted to share or if he wanted me to ask questions and he said "questions".  Basically, I got out of him that he was mad at me for expecting him to do "productive" things each day last week.  That was the condition under which I told him he could stay home rather than going to visit my brother with my parents.  I have my doubts that was the root of the anger, but I went with that.  I talked with him a bit about anger not being wrong, but the way he handled his anger being wrong.  I tried to keep it pretty brief and let him know I wasn't looking to solve everything in one conversation. 

The rest of the day was "okay".  He wasn't pouting and giving the silent treatment to his friends and brother the way he had earlier in the week.  My parents got back from visiting my brother (they were gone for the whole silent treatment period) and probably didn't notice much difference in his demeanor.  He wasn't chatty, but responded to direct comments/questions.  He left for camp this morning, acting fairly normal.  We haven't had any further conversations about his silent treatment.  I'm hoping to at least ask if he would like me to help him find tools to better deal with his anger after he gets back from camp.

What I don't get to tell him, or feel like I have anyone to share with is how and why this crushed me.  The two things that kept haunting me were "I caused this.  I left BPDh and he feels like I left him too.  He's right to be angry" and "He wants to hurt me and he's seen enough of BPDh's treatment of me to know that this is the worst pain he can inflict on me.  He's becoming an abuser, like his dad."

I can hear FF saying that I need to not confound all these things.  I'm working on trying to sort them out, but at the moment I feel overwhelmed by emotions.  The most disturbing of which is that I am afraid of my son and his ability/willingness to hurt me.

Oh.  Just to cap things off on my parent's visit - as S14 was saying goodbye to my dad before heading out for camp (my parents leave tomorrow) my dad made eye contact with me before saying to S14 "Remember what I told you.  You can come live with us any time."  Yeah.  That felt great to hear.  Dad has already told me how he feels like I'm hurting his grandsons, so it was good to establish that he felt it necessary to offer to take them off my hands.

On the bright side, all of this had me questioning my decision to continue with the separation (probably not REAL questioning, mostly FOG questioning) so I've been praying that God help me see where BPDh's heart is.  The answer to that prayer came this morning in a text from BPDh saying that the house he's planning to rent won't allow dogs.  It may seem small, but it tells me that he is not willing to look for something that will allow our son to have our dogs with him except when he's with me.  It's not the first thing about this house he's planning to rent that makes me think "I wouldn't have chosen that one", but this is the first that really impacts S14.  He ended the text with "We'll have to figure something out".  I'm leaving that one alone.  He is aware that I will be traveling for work during the times I don't have S14, which means I will need to figure out who will take care of the dogs while I'm gone.  Good thing I'm good at figuring things out without him.

Okay.  So that was my weekend from h3ll.  Feel free to give insight/advice.  I'm limited on time with WiFi until Wednesday, but I'll try to catch up with everyone's postings soon. 

[Grey Kitty]

First off--congratulations--you survived the weekend!

There are several things in here that I'm going to take exception to.

What I don't get to tell him, or feel like I have anyone to share with is how and why this crushed me.  The two things that kept haunting me were "I caused this.  I left BPDh and he feels like I left him too.  He's right to be angry" and "He wants to hurt me and he's seen enough of BPDh's treatment of me to know that this is the worst pain he can inflict on me.  He's becoming an abuser, like his dad."

First off, you didn't cause this behavior in him by leaving--For one thing, your BPDh drove you to leave, so he shares the blame. Second, he learned it by following your BPDh's example, as you said. Note that you aren't the one who taught him this stuff!

Second, and most importantly--he's still a teenage child. He still needs parenting, and you are doing exactly that. To prevent him from growing up believing that this kind of behavior is OK.

Further, I'd expect S14 to behave as badly as he has in years right about now--no matter who is at fault, separation is hard on kids. And having parents together but fighting and not resolving their conflicts (i.e. what was going on before you moved out) is hard on kids. Being a teenager is hard too. And lastly, I'm guessing that living with BPDh isn't particularly easy on him these days either... .does he get the silent treatment from BPDh?

Anyhow... .given all he's going through, you can expect him to be exhibiting some of his worst behaviors, and the fact that you got through to him is really encouraging. While it is a concern that he could become abusive like BPDh, I think you will be able to raise him better than that still.

Dog question: Whose dogs? Yours? S14's? S18's? BPDh's? Both in terms of who takes responsibility, and what the dog would say if you asked... .

[BeagleGirl]

GK,
Thank you for the perspective.  S18 cruised through the teenage years with such ease that I do sometimes need to be reminded that 14 is hard, no matter what.

The dogs - now there's a topic that is relatively easy to talk about. 
We have 3 beagles.  In name, the two older (Sandi and Violet) were each given to our two sons 12.5 years ago.  As you would expect, they are family dogs.  The latest addition is a rescue beagle (Praline) that I selected as a "backup dog" since our other two are getting up in years.  She's approximately 4 years old.

All of the dogs look to me as the "alpha".  Violet sleeps with S14.  Sandi is "second in command" and sleeps on the landing so she can watch all the rooms while we sleep.  Praline is adored by all (S14 likes her better than Violet) but is very clearly my dog.  She blatantly ignores the rest of the family at times but follows me around and always responds to me.  I have missed all the dogs tremendously.  I try to get some time in with them when I'm at the house with the boys, but end up spending most of my time with the boys.

It was my goal to have the dogs travel with S14 to whatever house he is staying in.  This was partially because he does turn to them for snuggles/comfort now more than ever and also partially as a convenience because I travel for work and will pack that travel into the time that S14 is staying with BPDh. 

I'm playing with the idea of finishing out the basement as an apartment and seeing if I can find a college student who would dog sit for "rent".  It would be a complication in an already complicated situation, but boarding the dogs would bust my budget.  Sandi needs medication twice a day and all three have been known to break out of the yard and come looking for us when left alone more than one overnight (they have a doggie door, so they are pretty self sufficient otherwise).

[Grey Kitty]

... .so your idea/hope/plan was that shared custody would involve the dogs going back and forth with S14, because they are good for S14, and you are concerned with his welfare--a very reasonable approach.

Dogs staying with you as the household "alpha" and as you appear to be more responsible than BPDh is another 'reasonable' approach, although presumably harder on S14, and also more difficult to manage around your work travel.

I'm assuming that your current apartment is one that falls short of dog-friendly, and the plan now for BPDh to find his own, and you will move back into the house after he moves out.

And BPDh's unwillingness to put in the effort / look hard enough to find a dog-friendly place to rent, has you questioning his commitment to being a good father for S14.

Yeah. Kinda heartbreaking.    And that's pretty common with split custody with a BPD partner--they fall down on the job of being a parent. Badly.

And when he drops the ball, you will chase after it and/or pick up all the pieces you can for S14, because you are that is what kind of mother you are.

Don't let him use this as a way to weasel back into living with you, emotionally blackmailing you with what he's taking away from S14. I'm not saying he's consciously trying to do this; I've got no idea.

Please remember that you need soo much more than that to reconcile. And let me tell you from watching others that since you've moved out and improved your boundaries, his behavior probably has improved--partially because he's not close enough to be as abusive as he was, and partially because you aren't close enough to trigger him either. *IF* you move back, he will revert. I guarantee it. Maybe not all the way to the worst he ever was, if your boundaries are much stronger, but he will be far worse living with you than he is now, living elsewhere!

[formflier]

Uggg... .uggg... .ugggg  Boundary busting all over the place.  Ok... actually one really jumped out at me and you need to handle it directly with your Father, in the presence of your mother.  It's not a discussion... it's a message.


What you Dad told s14 about living with him "anytime he wants" is not ok.  It's NOT about what the kid wants... .it's about supporting the two parents that are trying to raise a child.  You need to put your Dad in his place  Your mom needs to hear.

":)ad, I'm sure you will agree that teenage years are confusing ones.  Even more so when parents and adults are not getting along well.  It would mean a lot to me if you would apologize to S14 for offering to let him live with you, whenever he wants.  Where S14 lives is an adult discussion between uBPDh and I."

stop... .listen... .do not bite on the stuff that will be thrown out there... .  In fact... .look for things you can "agree" with.  Such as "I didn't mean xyz... ." 

":)ad, I agree that you didn't mean any harm.  I know you and that you have a loving heart, which is why I'm sure that you will want the parents to make parental decisions and the grandparents to support them.  If you have questions or concerns about parenting address them directly to me.  S14 is not involved in adult decisions."

Then... after one or two things that you can "agree" on... .

"I need to get back to you apologizing to S14... .when can we set that up?"

Don't further explain why... .don't debate.  He likely won't.  Don't bite on that... .

OK... .I'm going to cut this post and come back in a bit and make some other comments.  I'll finish with saying this should get your "mamabear out".  Just like Notwendy wouldn't turn her kids over to the Mom to be an emotional caretaker... .YOU need to enforce boundaries in YOUR family for YOUR kids.

Your parents don't get a vote in this... they get to listen.

FF

[formflier]

On the silent treatment... .it appears to me that you "bit" on it.

There seems to be this attitude of he needs to talk so others in his life can "help" or "fix" or "deal with"... .

And to a point that is correct.  Move "your version" of that point quite a ways towards letting him deal with it while you provide support.

Trying to convince s14 that his behaviors are abusive or mean or out of line likely poured gas on the fire. 

Two goals.

1.  Get him to behave somewhat like an adult (talk to people politely when you don't feel like it)

and

2.  Have empathy for others.  Especially how his actions/words might impact others.

At the right time a question of "How do you feel when you are ignored?"... .then "How do you think (fill in blank) feels when ignored"

Eventually you may get to where he admits he wanted someone else to feel pain.  Listen... .non-judgmentally.  Do not correct.

He will hear that he is "wrong". 

This is likely something to discuss with T and likely something for a T to gently nudge him in the right direction.  You totally get it that he has learned some of this from his Father.  A T will have much better luck guiding him.  If you are involved in trying to convince s14 that those actions are not good... .it will likely turn into a proxy battle between you and hubby about who is right/wrong.

Lots to be very careful with here... .there is not a rush.  This didn't happen in a day and won't be "fixed" in a day either.

   

FF

[formflier]

BeagleGirl,

I hope you can look at the "big picture" from a "boundaries point of view" and then express to us here why your Dad's comments about your Mom's arms get one recommendation and comments about s14 get very different recommendation.

FF

[BeagleGirl]

BeagleGirl,

I hope you can look at the "big picture" from a "boundaries point of view" and then express to us here why your Dad's comments about your Mom's arms get one recommendation and comments about s14 get very different recommendation.

FF

FF,
Thanks for the really good question. 

Why I think I responded to the two scenarios differently -
1.  I was much more emotionally exhausted when faced with the offer to S14 to go live with my parents.  I don't think I had much "fight" left in me when it happened.

2.  It's much easier for me to fight for someone else than for myself.  I think this is probably the bigger contributor.  In the situation with my mom, I was wanting to stand up for her and for S18.  In the situation with S14, it felt like the offense was against me.  I draw a bit of a parallel to the fact that it took me seeing the clear impact of BPDh's behavior on S18 to say "This is not okay".  That was the proverbial straw that led me to be willing to have BPDh face consequences for his behavior, ultimately leading to this separation.

3.   In the situation with my dad's treatment of my mom the injustice was clear to me.  His behavior had no purpose or outcome other than hurting someone.  There is a part of me that still looks at what my dad did and says "Of course he thinks it would be better for S14 to live with him.  I left my husband and left S14 with my husband.  I'm acting selfishly and that means I'm not being a good mother.  Dad is just offering S14 an "intact" home."  There is still a part of me that believes what my dad thinks about me and feels like I "deserve" the hurt he caused me with that comment. 

4.  While I can "agree to disagree" with dad on his treatment of my mom if he doesn't make amends, I fear that I will lose my relationship with my dad if I confront him on his treatment of me and he is unwilling to respect my boundaries.  I feel like that's what happened with BPDh.  Ultimately, I had to leave the relationship to stay "safe".  I know what I have with Dad is not a "loving" relationship, but it's what I know and I'm afraid of losing even that, especially with his health as it is.

I know none of these are "good" reasons.  I know I need to deal with them.  Right now I feel cowardly.  I don't want to face the "monsters".  I'm glad dad is 2000 miles away now and I don't need to see him again until Christmas.  On the other hand, I have the Father's Day card that I bought this weekend with the intention of slipping it into his luggage.  I wanted to be able to write loving and encouraging things that would make it a special gift.  Other than signing my name, I have no idea what to write in it.  Everything I want to "say" would hurt him.  But so would sending it with just "Love {BG}".

Today is the first appointment with the mediator for the legal separation.  At the moment, that seems a lot more emotionally manageable than anything with my dad, so I'm choosing to focus on that for now.

BG

[formflier]

Good response... .very insightful.  No right or wrong answers

As you mature towards understanding boundaries one of the things you will understand more is that if someone wants to be hurt... .they will be.  People with even more dysfunction will claim that you hurt them... .and depending on your level of dysfunction... .perhaps you will agree with them.

With that in mind, I would encourage you to write a nice sentiment to your Father for Father's Day.  

Dad,

Thinking of you on Father's Day.

Love,

BG

If that is all you can manage and feel good about... .for you... .that is wonderful  I think most people would be glad to get something like that.  If someone wants to  read more into it than you intend... .there is nothing you can do about that... .nothing.

Big picture:  You are aware of your emotional energy... .you are "spending" it where you believe it is wise... .and for that    

FF