Feeling of responsibility keeping me in the marriage

[Beware of Junk Psychology...]

Hi everyone,

I'm a 36M with anxiety, depression, and ASD (more on that later).

My wife is a 38F with anxiety, depression, a chronic auto-immune disorder, and an APD diagnosis from her youth.  However, whenever I read a list of the signs of BPD or someone else's story pwBPD story, it sounds exactly like her.

We've been married 5 years with one 4-year-old son.

Bottom line:  I want out.  I constantly find myself fantasizing about how much simpler life would be without her.

However, I have "dragged" (her words) my wife across the country for my career.  I work as a college professor, and we live in a rural community in the southeast near the college, thousands of miles from her family.  (The same family she wanted desperately to move away from when we first met.)

I feel like I can't leave because I provide almost all our income and our health insurance.  She often says that if I were to leave, she'd be on the streets or that she would kill herself.  With her auto-immune disease, she likely wouldn't be able to hold down a job.  So I feel responsible for her.

(My dad left my bipolar mother after I went to college, and I really watched her struggle to make a new life for herself.)

Regarding my ASD diagnosis:  My wife would often ask, "What's wrong with you?"  One night after an argument, we did some googling, and ASD seemed like it might explain most of the issues she had with me.  So I arranged to be tested.  Part of the diagnosis process was an interview with my wife.  Sure enough, I was diagnosed with ASD.  But she has done absolutely nothing to try and work with me post-diagnosis, e.g, by giving me some reminders on what to do or being more clear in directions.  If I bring my ASD up at all, it's just an "excuse".

(My dad, on the other hand, absolutely refused to believe the ASD diagnosis -- making part of me wonder if it was just the ultimate gaslighting, especially with her role in the diagnosis process.)

Any ideas?

Thank you for reading!

[prof]

Hi everyone,

I'm a 36M with anxiety, depression, and ASD (more on that later).

My wife is a 38F with anxiety, depression, a chronic auto-immune disorder, and an APD diagnosis from her youth.  However, whenever I read a list of the signs of BPD or someone else's story pwBPD story, it sounds exactly like her.

We've been married 5 years with one 4-year-old son.

Bottom line:  I want out.  I constantly find myself fantasizing about how much simpler life would be without her.

However, I have "dragged" (her words) my wife across the country for my career.  I work as a college professor, and we live in a rural community in the southeast near the college, thousands of miles from her family.  (The same family she wanted desperately to move away from when we first met.)

I feel like I can't leave because I provide almost all our income and our health insurance.  She often says that if I were to leave, she'd be on the streets or that she would kill herself.  With her auto-immune disease, she likely wouldn't be able to hold down a job.  So I feel responsible for her.

(My dad left my bipolar mother after I went to college, and I really watched her struggle to make a new life for herself.)

Regarding my ASD diagnosis:  My wife would often ask, "What's wrong with you?"  One night after an argument, we did some googling, and ASD seemed like it might explain most of the issues she had with me.  So I arranged to be tested.  Part of the diagnosis process was an interview with my wife.  Sure enough, I was diagnosed with ASD.  But she has done absolutely nothing to try and work with me post-diagnosis, e.g, by giving me some reminders on what to do or being more clear in directions.  If I bring my ASD up at all, it's just an "excuse".

(My dad, on the other hand, absolutely refused to believe the ASD diagnosis -- making part of me wonder if it was just the ultimate gaslighting, especially with her role in the diagnosis process.)

Any ideas?

Thank you for reading!

[MrRight]

Your case sounds so complex it needs a more informed head than mine to deal with it.

however - I brought a woman from Russia to the UK - and I di identify with the feeling of responsibility you have for taking your wife far away from her family and being the sole provider. Mine also says she will kill herself etc.

Given that you both have issues - how do you see the future of your son? with you, with her - or muddle through with both?

[prof]

I'm probably biased, but I feel that I am significantly more high-functioning than my wife.  I have a steady job, rarely get angry, etc.  And I currently do probably about 95% of the parenting.  I don't want to take him away from her or anything, but I think he would probably be better of with me.

[DaddyBear77]

Hey prof - welcome to the bpdfamily

So first of all, as you probably know personally, I've read that diagnosing ASD in adults can be tricky. My pwBPD has "joked" about me being "on the spectrum," too, and I've had plenty of long nights where we've consulted Dr Google to find out just exactly what it wrong with me! Given that I seem to function well in every other context of my life that DOESN'T involve my pwBPD, I've more or less ignored this, laughed it off, and just generally moved on. It does stick in my head sometimes, but I try to trust my instincts and I would suggest you do the same.

Do you happen to see a therapist or counselor on a regular basis? Have you brought this up with them? Do they think it's a concern? Aside from my pwBPD, I feel like a therapist with whom I am open and honest with has a better, healthier perspective on who I am and what might be a diagnosable issue.

So that takes us to the situation where your wife has moved away from her family and now you feel completely responsible for her and her well being. It also sounds like her auto-immune issues might make things more (too?) difficult for your wife.

But let me ask you - what did your wife do before you met? How did she get along without you there? If you could imagine disappearing for a week, what would things look like at home? Would she step up? Notice I didn't ask, would it be easy / comfortable / something she likes.

YOU are suffering from depression and anxiety as well as something that might be ASD. Your wife calls them excuses. But it doesn't sound like YOU call them excuses, right? It sounds like you still get up, go to work, get things done, and come home every night and, as you said, do 95% of the parenting. I have a 3 year old daughter about to turn 4 - I know how difficult that is. I'm in the same boat there, too.

Just so you know, I'm right there, in a very very similar spot to you. My wife also has anxiety, depression, and a chronic auto-immune disorder - it's all real, I've seen the flares and the rashes and all the sleepless nights to "prove" it without her saying a word. About 5 years ago my wife quit her six figure job because "it was killing her" - and she might have been right. But I'm also suffering from chronic back issues, I've taken meds for depression and anxiety in the past and I'm thinking about going back again soon, and it's also starting to look like I'll be diagnosed with Spondylosis or psoriatic arthritis or maybe both. But not once in any of my journey have I even CONSIDERED quitting my job or packing it in. I suspect you're in the same boat.

You mentioned that your mother struggled with bipolar disorder and had a tough time making a new life, but did she eventually figure it out?

Again, being completely honest, I am trying desperately to figure this out for myself, too, which is why I'm able to talk about these issues - they're on my mind all the time. Will my wife be OK if I leave? Will she go back to that six figure job, even though she'll hate me every second of every day for "making" her do it? Will the alimony I provide help her enough? Would I be willing to pay a little extra to make sure she gets health insurance? Does that even make sense?

Some other questions I ask myself: What signal does it send to her when I do all the hard parenting stuff? It's obvious she is more than willing to step aside and let me step in. But what would happen if I said "sorry, babe, I need to get some work done. Can you do the bathing and the laundry and the tucking in tonight?" Is that an unreasonable expectation? Is my wife taking responsibility for her own health, for real, and going to all the doctors and specialists that are available today to get relief from her symptoms? Or does she just defeat herself, presume that the treatment is worse than the cure, and stay stuck in the same spot over and over and over again.

Hopefully these are some good questions to get you started. I hope I didn't make too many presumptions, but like I said, your story sounds really familiar so I'm guessing I'm not too far off.

[prof]

So first of all, as you probably know personally, I've read that diagnosing ASD in adults can be tricky. My pwBPD has "joked" about me being "on the spectrum," too, and I've had plenty of long nights where we've consulted Dr Google to find out just exactly what it wrong with me! Given that I seem to function well in every other context of my life that DOESN'T involve my pwBPD, I've more or less ignored this, laughed it off, and just generally moved on. It does stick in my head sometimes, but I try to trust my instincts and I would suggest you do the same.

I was certainly not without issues before i met my wife.  I really struggled with my last couple years of college, barely going to class and just scraping by to graduate.  I'd rather stay in my apartment and play MMOs than go to campus.

An old frat buddy of my dad's offered me an interview for a nice job when I graduated -- I just had to call him to set it up.  But my dad and his friends call me by my middle name, and I prefer my first name.  This little fear prevented me from ever calling.  I stayed unemployed the summer after graduation, until my parents basically forced me to move home.  I worked retail for three years before I finally applied to grad school.

And I was absolutely petrified of talking to women.  My wife, who I started dating at 29, was my first serious adult relationship.  And she asked me out.

So while on one hand, the ASD seems like gaslighting, on the other hand, it seems to explain a lot.

Do you happen to see a therapist or counselor on a regular basis? Have you brought this up with them? Do they think it's a concern? Aside from my pwBPD, I feel like a therapist with whom I am open and honest with has a better, healthier perspective on who I am and what might be a diagnosable issue.

Yes -- I see the therapist who diagnosed me.  The regularity, however, is not so great.   When I am able to see him (often I have to make the next appointment months out due to his busy schedule), frequently I end up canceling at the last minute due to some drama created by my wife.  She's convinced he's doing nothing to help me.  It seems that she expects that after less than a year of therapy, I should be cured of ASD.  That and it's "too expensive".  (It's a $25 copay -- and she spends way more than that on jewelry, makeup, etc.)

During my last appointment with him, I did start talking about my worries that she may have BPD, that may ASD diagnosis may be a bit off, etc.  He seemed halfway open to it, but I haven't had another appointment since (I think I've cancelled two... .)

So that takes us to the situation where your wife has moved away from her family and now you feel completely responsible for her and her well being. It also sounds like her auto-immune issues might make things more (too?) difficult for your wife.

Yes, absolutely.  She stays in bed almost all day watching TV or playing games on her phone.  During the last week or so, she's had frequent fainting spells.  For a few hours last week, she claimed to have lost her memory for the last four years.

But let me ask you - what did your wife do before you met? How did she get along without you there? If you could imagine disappearing for a week, what would things look like at home? Would she step up? Notice I didn't ask, would it be easy / comfortable / something she likes.

When we met, we were in school.  She was living off financial aid and probably mooching off her mom (now deceased).  Almost immediately after dating, she started trying to get me to buy her weed and cigarettes.  I held my ground for a long time (I hate that she smokes), but finally caved after a few months.

She got along well enough without me then.  If I disappeared for a week ... .I don't know.  She might be dead, like she threatens.  She might be just fine, and the house might be as clean as it ever was (cleaning seems to be one of her best ways to self-soothe, although I do most of it any more.)

YOU are suffering from depression and anxiety as well as something that might be ASD. Your wife calls them excuses. But it doesn't sound like YOU call them excuses, right? It sounds like you still get up, go to work, get things done, and come home every night and, as you said, do 95% of the parenting. I have a 3 year old daughter about to turn 4 - I know how difficult that is. I'm in the same boat there, too.

Just so you know, I'm right there, in a very very similar spot to you. My wife also has anxiety, depression, and a chronic auto-immune disorder - it's all real, I've seen the flares and the rashes and all the sleepless nights to "prove" it without her saying a word. About 5 years ago my wife quit her six figure job because "it was killing her" - and she might have been right. But I'm also suffering from chronic back issues, I've taken meds for depression and anxiety in the past and I'm thinking about going back again soon, and it's also starting to look like I'll be diagnosed with Spondylosis or psoriatic arthritis or maybe both. But not once in any of my journey have I even CONSIDERED quitting my job or packing it in. I suspect you're in the same boat.

Oh yeah, I'm never quitting my job.  I love my work.  If it weren't for my son, I'd never want to come home.

You mentioned that your mother struggled with bipolar disorder and had a tough time making a new life, but did she eventually figure it out?

Things slowly got better for her.  She started out living on a very sketchy side of town working odd retail jobs.  Eventually, she got a decent job and bought a nice condo.  But then she had the mother of all manic episodes, lost everything, and had to work her way back up again.

She eventually ended up living with a guy who on the surface seemed great for her, and for the most part treated her pretty well.  But he started dating her immediately after his wife died, and tried to seduce my aunt while she was visiting them, so I'm guessing some sort of sex addiction?

Ultimately, she had another manic episode, decided to go off dialysis (she struggled with kidney disease for most of her life), and passed away a few months later.  At this point, I was engaged to my wife and already too wrapped up her drama to really be there emotionally for my mom.  (Or physically -- I was 2000 miles away at grad school.)

Again, being completely honest, I am trying desperately to figure this out for myself, too, which is why I'm able to talk about these issues - they're on my mind all the time. Will my wife be OK if I leave? Will she go back to that six figure job, even though she'll hate me every second of every day for "making" her do it? Will the alimony I provide help her enough? Would I be willing to pay a little extra to make sure she gets health insurance? Does that even make sense?

Some other questions I ask myself: What signal does it send to her when I do all the hard parenting stuff? It's obvious she is more than willing to step aside and let me step in. But what would happen if I said "sorry, babe, I need to get some work done. Can you do the bathing and the laundry and the tucking in tonight?" Is that an unreasonable expectation? Is my wife taking responsibility for her own health, for real, and going to all the doctors and specialists that are available today to get relief from her symptoms? Or does she just defeat herself, presume that the treatment is worse than the cure, and stay stuck in the same spot over and over and over again.

Right now, she certainly acts as if she can barely do anything for our son.  She kept me up most of last night because was having insomnia and didn't want to be alone.  I finally convinced her to let me sleep some more, and then our son woke up.  ":)o you expect me to take care of him?" she asked.  So of course I got up.

I know she can take care of him, sometimes at least.  Every once in a while, I have an evening commitment and she usually steps up.  He's a pretty laid back, easy to hand kid.

Hopefully these are some good questions to get you started. I hope I didn't make too many presumptions, but like I said, your story sounds really familiar so I'm guessing I'm not too far off.

Thank you so much for your insight, DaddyBear77!  Our stories do sound very similar!

[prof]

Needing to vent a bit more... .

Since our first argument shortly after beginning dating, there's always been a little voice in my head telling me to run.

Last week, I think that voice was finally loud enough.  Specifically, as I was hanging from our bedroom window about to jump 8 feet or so to the ground below.

A little background:  A few weeks ago, we let her weed dealer and her boyfriend crash at our house for a few days while they looked for a new place.  It was too much for us, and we ended up concocting a fake story about our landlord finding out they were staying with us and threatening to terminate our lease to get them to move out without destroying the friendship/drug connection.  We agreed to keep hanging on to their stuff and looking after their cats in exchange for some weed.  (Quick aside: the weed is all my uPBDw -- I've never smoked a joint in my life.)

Well, the weed hadn't materialized yet and and my uBPDw grew angry.  She made some threats about getting rid of their stuff and cats, and grew afraid that they might come over and steal/burn/ransack/whatever our house.  However, they still had a key.

So in order to give my uBPDw enough piece of mind to get in the car and let me drive her to a sorely needed doctor's appointment with a specialist that deals with her auto-immune disorder, I went inside our house, locked all the doors and windows from the inside (we don't have a key for our storm door), except our bedroom.  This is where the jumping happened.

In that moment, I had decided.  I can't stay in this relationship.  This drama is too much for me.  I lose too much sleep, I miss too much work, I spend too much money, I'm told that she hates me, that I'm a horrible person, and that I don't care about her entirely too much.  And I'm beginning to see her treat our 4-year-old son badly too.  To me, she refers to him as a jerk and is convinced he hates her.  (All I see is the normal tantrums of a kid his age.)

(By the way, a couple days later, the weed dealer and her boyfriend came over to get their stuff and cats.  Everything was fine, and the weed was delivered as promised.  She still convinced me to change the locks.)

Yesterday, I called my dad and mostly bawled at him for about 30 minutes, finally being honest with him after 7 years of lying and pretending everything was ok.  He knew it was a bad relationship and warned me from the start, but I never listened.  He's promised to pay for any lawyer fees.  He's been entirely too generous financially through this whole mess, and I'm super lucky to have him.

I teach an online class during the summer, and I was having "virtual office hours" in a chat room.  No students had taken advantage of them yet until yesterday.  Ironically, just as I was beginning to talk to my first student about a homework question, my wife starts telling me about some new drama.  I listen attentively, ignoring my student.  After she's done, she goes into the bathroom to smoke, asking me to join her.  I tell her that I will answer the student's question and then join her.  She screams at me from the bathroom, saying that she always comes last, etc.  When I'm done talking to my student, I find that she's cut her wrists.  (Just superficial.)

We talk for a while, and she eventually calms down.  My poor son had been ignored all day, so I took him outside to play with his toy trucks for a while.  I get a phone call from my uBPDw, saying that she loves me and thanking me for being so good to her.  I ask where she is -- she's not in the house.

She'd walked a few blocks away.  I'm worried about her -- she's been fainting a lot recently.  I put my son in the car and we drive to find her.  After a few minutes of talking, she gets in the car and we drive home.  I put her to bed, give her something to eat, and she's asleep before too long.

I enjoy a relatively relaxed evening of putting my son to bed, doing some cleaning, and catching up on a tv show.  Just as I'm about to go to bed, I wake her up.  Before too long, I find myself in the bathroom with her while she smokes cigarette after cigarette and reads five or so websites to me about how a man should treat a woman, angrily glaring at me during the parts where she feels I'm perform especially poorly.

This turns into her asking me to apologize for what she considers one of my biggest failures -- leaving the town where we met to get my first academic job.  She sees this as "ruining her career".  (She is a musician, and she had a position in the local semi-professional orchestra that she had to give up when we moved.  She is convinced she will never get another similar position due to her illness.  Note that she makes more money teaching music at the same college I teach at than she ever did in this orchestra -- but she's teaching, not performing.)

Eventually, she calms down and starts to practice her instrument (I think it's about 4 am at this point... .)  I manage to get a few hours asleep before my son wakes up.

Ugh.  I wish I could say days like this were rare.  Thank you to anyone who read my rant.  I just needed to share it.

[Notwendy]

Hi prof-

I have read your story and it is one that is familiar to me from observing my parents- and BPD mom. While my own relationship has had some challenges, it thankfully has not included feeling responsible for someone else's survival. Yet, I think many of us somehow feel responsible for other people's feelings. I think it does help to realize what we are, and what we are not, responsible for.

Then there are our own set of values- how we handle ethical issues, money, and illegal substances. If it is not ok with you to have weed dealers in your home, then your values are being violated. You have the right to not have weed dealers in your home, or weed as well.

I know it is concerning that your wife may not be able to survive without you. Consider that she did survive for 29 years before she met you. Although you feel you took her away from her family, she could also get a plane ticket and go back.

This is difficult, but you can, and need to take care of yourself- you need sleep and you need time to work. An online class is great to work from home, but if home is disruptive- your office on campus may be the better place to do this. Yes, you have the parenting responsibility, but options like mother's morning out, day camp, preschool, can give you some time, and your son will have a great time playing with other kids. I don't know if you are religious, but churches often have mothers morning out programs and vacation bible camps that are inexpensive. A secular camp may be found at a YMCA if there is one near you.

Your ASD diagnosis is independent of your wife's issues. BPD can involve denial and a tendency to blame other people. ASD may serve that for your wife. She may also minimize it if she feels you are taking victim position in discussions. Read up on the drama triangle to understand this dynamic.

To stay or leave is a hard decision, but I think you can make a decision based on what you feel is best for you. This isn't easy either way. It is a very hard place to be. I think either decision- to stay or leave comes with pros and cons. Yet, the choice is yours to make.

[prof]

Thanks, Notwendy!

If it is not ok with you to have weed dealers in your home, then your values are being violated. You have the right to not have weed dealers in your home, or weed as well.

I really didn't have a huge problem with them staying with us -- they weren't dealing out of our house or anything.  I saw them as friends who needed some help.

Their presence was really giving my uBPDw anxiety after a while.  I would have preferred to be honest with them, but I eventually agreed to the fake landlord story.

The weed itself has always been an interesting part of our relationship.  Initially, I thought it was kind of cool and sexy that she smoked.  It was never something that I had done, and it added a component of edginess that added attraction.  I didn't really have many of my own friends in grad school (it seemed like whenever I'd start to hang out with someone, they'd graduate or drop out).  So her weed smoking friends became my friends too.  One of them even ended up being one of my groomsmen.

But I hate the money.  I made a pittance in grad school as a TA, and I was spending a couple hundred bucks a month on her drugs, literally watching my money go up in smoke.  Her use has gone down significantly since then while my income has gone up, so the proportion has dropped.  But I still don't like it.

I know it is concerning that your wife may not be able to survive without you. Consider that she did survive for 29 years before she met you. Although you feel you took her away from her family, she could also get a plane ticket and go back.

She certainly has the strongest support system back home.  Unfortunately, the most vital key to that was her mom, who passed away a year and a half ago.  But she still has her dad, sister, and a ton of friends.

This is difficult, but you can, and need to take care of yourself- you need sleep and you need time to work. An online class is great to work from home, but if home is disruptive- your office on campus may be the better place to do this. Yes, you have the parenting responsibility, but options like mother's morning out, day camp, preschool, can give you some time, and your son will have a great time playing with other kids. I don't know if you are religious, but churches often have mothers morning out programs and vacation bible camps that are inexpensive. A secular camp may be found at a YMCA if there is one near you.

The preschool he goes to during the year has a summer program, and I can drop him off any day for a daily rate.  I may just do that soon.

Your ASD diagnosis is independent of your wife's issues. BPD can involve denial and a tendency to blame other people. ASD may serve that for your wife. She may also minimize it if she feels you are taking victim position in discussions. Read up on the drama triangle to understand this dynamic.

I did a little reading on the drama triangle, and I find myself identifying with all three corners.  Is this normal?

Primarily "Rescuer" though.  The following, from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karpman_drama_triangle, seems spot on:

The rewards derived from this rescue role are that the focus is taken off of the rescuer. When he/she focuses their energy on someone else, it enables them to ignore their own anxiety and issues. This rescue role is also very pivotal because their actual primary interest is really an avoidance of their own problems disguised as concern for the victim’s needs.

I certainly have a lot of my own crap to deal with (e.g., things like the anxiety about setting up that interview at the end of college).  There's no time for that now!

However, I also see myself as a Victim of her abuse, and in my head, a Persecutor blaming all my problems on her.

To stay or leave is a hard decision, but I think you can make a decision based on what you feel is best for you. This isn't easy either way. It is a very hard place to be. I think either decision- to stay or leave comes with pros and cons. Yet, the choice is yours to make.

Quite honestly, I see almost nothing but pros to leaving.  The two big cons that jump out are:

• What will happen to her?
• Will I end up ripping our son from her if, e.g., she does move back home and I get custody?

[MrRight]

Wow - what a story.

I cant help much with advice - except that I am very concerned for the welfare of your child - very concerned. There is no way he should be left alone for significant periods of time at that age and I am sure you know this. he should also not be exposed to the company of drug dealers and if his mother thinks he is a jerk I would say you should perhaps consdier some options along the lines of putting him first - which might also benefit you.
I myself failed to get my son away from his mum - but then she wasnt neglecting him - quite the opposite.
yes mine has also read out websites on how a man should treat a woman - galling and insulting isnt it - coming from a mental case.
My dad also warned me - I havent seen him in 8 years, or my mother. My wife thinks they're all just trash - just like me! But Im glad she has music to help her wind down. what does she play? what part did her parents play in her musical career? disappointed musician possibly trying to cope with unfulfilled expectations from ruthless and brutal ambitious parents? just a shot in the dark.

[prof]

I cant help much with advice - except that I am very concerned for the welfare of your child - very concerned. There is no way he should be left alone for significant periods of time at that age and I am sure you know this.  he should also not be exposed to the company of drug dealers and if his mother thinks he is a jerk I would say you should perhaps consdier some options along the lines of putting him first - which might also benefit you.
I myself failed to get my son away from his mum - but then she wasnt neglecting him - quite the opposite.

He's never left completely alone at home by himself, if you were getting that impression.  Just occasional afternoons of keeping himself occupied in the other room while uBPDw and I are getting into it.  Most of the big fights are after he has gone to bed.  Fortunately, he's a very creative happy little guy and for the most part seems unaffected (yet).

yes mine has also read out websites on how a man should treat a woman - galling and insulting isnt it - coming from a mental case.

Yeah -- and today she practically had me convinced that I'm the one committing the abuse because I don't just automatically do these things.  And I probably would, if I wasn't so emotionally and financially drained from our day-to-day.

My dad also warned me - I havent seen him in 8 years, or my mother. My wife thinks they're all just trash - just like me!

Oh, that's horrible.  I'm sorry.

I certainly have seen my dad far less since I started dating my uBPDw (I saw him 2 months ago, and that was for the first time in about a year and a half), but we still have a good relationship.

But Im glad she has music to help her wind down. what does she play? what part did her parents play in her musical career? disappointed musician possibly trying to cope with unfulfilled expectations from ruthless and brutal ambitious parents? just a shot in the dark.

She plays flute.  From my point of view, her parents were extremely supportive of her music.  Her mom regularly drove 6 hours to hear her concerts, etc.

I wouldn't call either of her parents ruthless or ambitious, but from what I understand they had financial success early on -- both were old school computer programmers back in the 60s-70s.

Her dad is schizophrenic and physically abused her mom and my uBPDw.  She quit high school, did drugs and lived on the streets for a few years before getting clean and going to music school.  (The APD diagnosis, as I understand, was from these years.)  So I'm guessing those are the two big things motivating everything.

She just fell asleep, but we had a pretty big fight this afternoon.  It sounds like she's pretty much exactly in the same place I am.  Extremely unhappy, but worried that she'd be destitute if we split.

[prof]

Yesterday was a doozy.

Shortly after uBPDw woke up, she started going on about some current drama, and this quickly turned into pushing against me.  (She'd been in contact with the director of a musical group we were had been involved with last year.  We'd gone to several rehearsals, but had to leave due to her illness.  The director said she was welcome back, but would be performing a lower part.  She sees this as "punishing" her for her illness.  She wants me to "defend" her and contact the director myself.  I refused.)

As soon as she referred to me as her "f$!@ing husband", I lost my cool and all the doubts that have been simmering just below the surface recently came to the top.  "I'm done!" I exclaimed.

This turned into even more pushing, then pulling, then pushing, then pulling, etc.  At one point, she grabbed a knife and retreated to the bathroom to cut herself.  A few minutes later, she yelled at me because "my" knives are all "too dull".  She emptied one of her pill bottles into her hand, as if to take them, so I called 911.  She immediately put the pills back in the bottle, came over to me, ripped the phone from my ear and told the dispatcher that I was lying.

They sent a couple sheriff deputies over to talk to us.  Everyone was cordial.  They gave us both numbers we could call -- a mental health facility that will come out and talk to her to me, and an abuse hotline to her.

She took this as validation that I have been emotionally abusing her for years.  And I probably have with my codependency.  I need to come to terms with this and figure out what to do.  (I borrowed "Codependent No More" from the library and have been reading that the last couple days.)

Things eventually calmed down.  She was very sad -- she had turned "I have doubts about our relationship" into "I'm definitely divorcing you and leaving you to die on the streets".

I'm determined to take care of myself and try and maintain boundaries.  But I also want to show her that I love her, which is what she's telling me she desperately needs.  We cuddled in bed last night for the first time in a month or two.

We'll see where this goes.  Thank you everyone for reading.

[MrRight]

You need some smart people on here to decode all this.

Mine often uses to me phone companies etc to sort out problems on her behalf - her excuse being she's foreign and a woman so I'm more likely to get a better result - which I do! Not because I'm a man or native speaker I'm just an assertive communicative person unlike her.

So you're the abuser are you? That's what they do - abuse you and then accuse you of being the abuser.

I have been in the suicide threat situation too - but I never called 911 - leading to the accusation I would be happy to see her die.

all this nonsense is just never ending

at least you love her though - that's something

hope you find a way of dealing with this

did you read up on the site tools? I found the stuff on validadition priceless.

[Lucky Jim]

Hey prof, In my view, when deputy sheriffs show up at your house, it's a big red flag.   

You have probably already thought about how an episode like this might affect your professional life and career.  Don't kid yourself: it's a serious matter when the W of a college professor accuses him of abuse.  You don't seem concerned about the risks, but maybe you should be.  A domestic violence charge could be fatal to your job.

Forewarned is forearmed: don't let this happen again.

LuckyJim

[DaddyBear77]

prof,

That DOES sound like one he$# of a day. I'm sorry that happened. It must have been really intense.

I understand that the police came as a result of you dialing 911. That's a pretty standard practice, I think, even when someone says "oops, never mind." I want to caution you, though - if your wife makes a suicidal threat again, and you have no other support or emergency system in place, call 911. More importantly, make absolutely sure that SHE knows you're still willing to call 911, despite whatever threat she might make.

Regarding the abuse, Lucky Jim is absolutely correct. It's one thing to go back and forth amongst yourselves, and even calling out to a DV hotline isn't quite as dangerous as when police start getting involved. I had an incident once 3 years ago, with my then 1 year old daughter in the car, my wife screamed so loud that other people in the parking garage called the police. Luckily my wife said "nothing is happening. I just got upset." But it could have very very easily gone another direction and it scared the crap out of me.

You've got a small child, illegal substances in the house, and evidence that if the police show up again, you're getting thrown under the bus. Take this very very seriously and let it be a true catalyst for change.

And one more thing - she won't change, there's a 99% chance of that. What is the percent chance YOU'LL make the changes?

[MrRight]

Just to back up what others have said.

dont know about USA but in the UK police log all incidents whether there is an arrest or not. this information can be passed on where employers might find it relevant. So in your case you will find "911 call - wife alleged abuse - no charge" being passed to a potential employer where you have applied for employment - imagine how that will look.

[sweetheart]

For me here in all you post what is screaming out to me as a parent is the welfare of your son. I hear you when you say he is only four and a perfectly happy little boy, but maybe a shift in your focus that might help you with your decisions and your future is to think about his needs and prioritise those over everything else.

It does not sound from what you outline here that your wife is able to parent in a way that takes the emotional wellbeing of your son into account, so this then falls to you to safeguard him from future emotional harm and think about whether you could offer him a better environment than the one he is living in at the moment, and what that might look like.

Lucky Jim raises an important point and it is also worth bearing in mind that if something like this were to happen again there is every possible that a referral to CPS could be made.

Think about what keeping you and your son safe from the worst excesses of these behaviours, what does that look like in practice?
Who else do you have around for support?

[sweetheart]

Sorry I tried to modify my previous post but it timed out, so am posting the bit I wanted to add;


Think about what keeping you and your son safe from the worst excesses of these behaviours might look like, can anything change in the short term to alleviate any stressors for you all?
Who else do you have around for support? Does your son have a nanny or is he in a regular childcare setting? Does your workplace offer these options?

Sometimes when we are living amidst so much chaos and instability for sustained periods of time some behaviours start to become acceptable in a way that they would not be on the outside. That's why sometimes when we look objectively at a post with fresh eyes we can maybe see through the chaos in a way that is immensely difficult to do when you are in it.

[MrRight]

For me here in all you post what is screaming out to me as a parent is the welfare of your son. I hear you when you say he is only four and a perfectly happy little boy, but maybe a shift in your focus that might help you with your decisions and your future is to think about his needs and prioritise those over everything else.

It does not sound from what you outline here that your wife is able to parent in a way that takes the emotional wellbeing of your son into account, so this then falls to you to safeguard him from future emotional harm and think about whether you could offer him a better environment than the one he is living in at the moment, and what that might look like.

Lucky Jim raises an important point and it is also worth bearing in mind that if something like this were to happen again there is every possible that a referral to CPS could be made.

Think about what keeping you and your son safe from the worst excesses of these behaviours, what does that look like in practice?
Who else do you have around for support?

I think living in this household may not be the best option for a 4 year old.
She refers to the boy as a "jerk" - not a good sign - she screams her head off - presumably he can hear that?
If you want custody you would need to go now to the child care authorities and tell them your story - make some recordings of your wife - that should nail it - as she may accuse you of being the abuser.
This is all easier said than done!

[prof]

Thanks everyone for your comments!

I'm planning on taking my son to daycare on Monday so I can (finally) get some work done on my summer class, and then I have my first appointment with a lawyer.

Yesterday afternoon I had an appointment to take two of our cats to the vet.  As I was getting ready to leave, uBPDw began going on about something in a bid for my attention.  I responded in (what I thought was) a reassuring, loving manner.  But she obviously found it dismissive, and responded "f$!# you too."  I told her that I don't appreciate being spoken to like that and that I was going to the vet appointment.

Shortly after I drove away, she called me.  It quickly turned into her yelling.  I told her that I needed to focus on driving and won't listen to her yelling at me.  She proceeding to call again, over and over.  I think there were something like 26 missed calls before I finally put my phone in airplane mode.  (Was ignoring her like this ok?  On one hand, I really did need to focus on driving and didn't want to deal with her yelling at me in that moment.  On the other hand, I was ignoring her, which is a surefire way to hurt her.)

I arrived at the vet a few minutes early, so I took the opportunity to set up the aforementioned appointment with the lawyer.

After the vet appointment was over, I finally called her back to let her know how it went.  She had mostly calmed down, but told me that she had passed out a couple times while I was gone and hurt her head.  I was originally planning on going to the pharmacy to pick up some prescriptions on the way home, but she asked me to come straight home.

I want to believe her, but the head injury looks enough like a knife cut that I can't help but wonder if she's lying.  She's also had some ridiculously high temperatures in the past few days (one upwards of 105).  These were all taken when I was out of the room.  Whenever she's taken her temperature with me nearby, they have been in the normal range.  Could should be doing the classic "holding it up to the light to get out of school" trick?  Am I just paranoid?

She also laid out a list of demands.  Demands that if I didn't agree to, she would take our son and drive back to where she grew up.  Most of them were reasonable, and things that I'm working on anyway, e.g., be more effective at showing my love.

The big one was moving back to near where her family lives.  I'm very hesitant about this, as I'm very happy in my job and in this part of the country.  She caught on to this hesitancy and revised her demand to moving closer to the city and then giving it an additional 2 years.  If she's not happy, then we move.

Things settled down.  I ran some more errands in the evening and brought home dinner.  It was a relatively normal evening.

I should mention that all of this is happening during a perfect storm of bad things going on my uBPDw's life.  Her auto-immune disorder symptoms are as bad as she's ever been, she had to drop out of an MBA program she started last summer due to her illness, she has to cancel her flute lessons at the college all the time due to illness, she was accepted into a nearby program for a second bachelor's degree in a field that really interests her, but she's already taken too many credits to quality for financial aid, we're saddled in credit card debt but trying to improve our credit to buy a house, she's switching antidepressants, and she's been on her period for the past few days.

[DaddyBear77]

Was ignoring her like this ok?  On one hand, I really did need to focus on driving and didn't want to deal with her yelling at me in that moment.  On the other hand, I was ignoring her, which is a surefire way to hurt her.

Ok, I'm going to do what I'm really good at - giving other people advice that I'm really bad at. But I guess, who better to know than someone who is doing it themselves right?

YES. That's GREAT! You're setting a boundary and enforcing it. The boundary is that you're not going to let yourself be raged at, especially when driving. Absolutely NO ONE has the right to do ANYTHING to you that you're not comfortable with. And the fact that you had to ask that question in the first place is honestly a red flag, indicating that you have some SERIOUS caretaking tendencies.

But, you may be asking, what if she really DID pass out and hurt herself? What if she really had an emergency and you weren't there? This may sound harsh, but... .I guess she'd have to learn pretty quickly how to dial 911, right?

I said I don't follow my own advice and I mean it, but that doesn't make either of us right. I've felt the same as you do for a long time. But seeing you go through this is an eye opener for myself too. Almost everyone out there has an innate ability to take care of themselves. Some people really REALLY like it when other people take care of them, but "won't" is very different from "can't." And likewise, some people really REALLY like to take care of other people, but "can" is really different than "should" or "must."

See what I'm saying?

[prof]

YES. That's GREAT! You're setting a boundary and enforcing it. The boundary is that you're not going to let yourself be raged at, especially when driving. Absolutely NO ONE has the right to do ANYTHING to you that you're not comfortable with.

Ok, good. 

And the fact that you had to ask that question in the first place is honestly a red flag, indicating that you have some SERIOUS caretaking tendencies.

Yeah, I'm figuring that out.  As the thread title says, it's pretty much my feeling of need to take care of her that's keeping me in this thing.

Ever since we began dating (and especially after we got our first apartment together), there's always been this little voice inside screaming at me, "Wow! WHAT ARE YOU DOING? RUN! RUN!".  But it has always lost to this feeling of responsibility.  I've been financially responsible for her since very early on. (I think I mentioned this above -- I finally caved and started buying her weed and cigarettes, initially as a loan.  This turned into us getting that apartment together -- she paid half the rent with her financial aid as repayment of her debt to me.  And eventually I caved some more and just bought these things for her without expecting repayment.)  I've felt physically responsible (who will do all these things for her?) and emotionally responsible (she'll kill herself if I leave!) too... .

[MrRight]

Ok, good. 

Yeah, I'm figuring that out.  As the thread title says, it's pretty much my feeling of need to take care of her that's keeping me in this thing.

Ever since we began dating (and especially after we got our first apartment together), there's always been this little voice inside screaming at me, "Wow! WHAT ARE YOU DOING? RUN! RUN!".  But it has always lost to this feeling of responsibility.  I've been financially responsible for her since very early on. (I think I mentioned this above -- I finally caved and started buying her weed and cigarettes, initially as a loan.  This turned into us getting that apartment together -- she paid half the rent with her financial aid as repayment of her debt to me.  And eventually I caved some more and just bought these things for her without expecting repayment.)  I've felt physically responsible (who will do all these things for her?) and emotionally responsible (she'll kill herself if I leave!) too... .

that's the reason I got married. great basis for a marriage eh.
For you it's early days - I have been playing this thankless game for 16 years.

[prof]

uBPDw slept most of the day yesterday after waking up briefly in the morning with awful nausea.

I spent the afternoon outside with my son putting his new swingset together.  (She ordered it so she could "play with him", i.e., smoke and play games on her phone while he plays.  We really couldn't afford it.  And this was Day 3 of putting it together.  I'm still not done... .)

She finally woke up in the evening.  I've been working on setting boundaries, and she obviously doesn't like it.  For example, she called away from reading a bedtime story to my son to load some weed in her pipe for her because she didn't want to disturb the kittens that were sleeping on her.  I refused and went back to reading the story.

After finishing storytime, I made her some dinner (she was asleep when my son and I ate) and went to give my son his nightly medicine (he had some nasty asthma episodes as a baby, and gets steroids in a nebulizer every night).  She said, "No, spend some time with me first!"

I agreed, but "spending time" became berating me for not spending time with her.  I responded with one of my usual responses ("I'm working on spending more time with you.  From my point of view, I spend a lot of time with you, and I'm working on trying to balance you with our son, work, chores around the house, etc."

She stopped eating her dinner and said, "Thanks, now I've lost my appetite."  I said that I won't be blamed for her losing her appetite and left to give my son his medicine.

Of course, she followed me raging.  I put up with it until I had finished giving him his medicine.  I told her I was exhausted from working out in the sun on the swingset all day and needed some sleep, going to the couch (I've been sleeping there a lot recently, partly due to the state of our marriage and also due to my snoring).

I closed my eyes while she continued raging.  She eventually pulled the blanket and pillow from me ("These are mine!"

I finally agreed to talk to her for "5 minutes".  Of course, 5 minutes become hours.  I got very little sleep, as she kept waking me up for one reason or another.  (Rub this ointment on my arm, take this kitten off me, help me with my blanket, etc.)  I was too tired to resist -- I just got up, did whatever it was, and went back to bed.

But the bottom line is -- I'm trying to set boundaries, and she doesn't like it.  Multiple times last night she called me a jerk and asked if our marriage was over.

[Grey Kitty]

But the bottom line is -- I'm trying to set boundaries, and she doesn't like it.  Multiple times last night she called me a jerk and asked if our marriage was over.

That's the way enforcing boundaries goes--if she 'liked' what you were trying to enforce, you wouldn't need to enforce it! 

The other thing going on is that you've taught her (over years) that if you try to stand up to her, she can turn up the volume, and keep it there, and sooner or later, you will give in. Now she expects it.

So she's going to keep pushing that button until it works... .or at least for a long time. We call this process an extinction burst, and you have to make it through it.

When it comes to not letting you sleep, you probably will have to go spend a night either at a hotel, or on a friend/relative's couch/guest room, with your phone off to get away and get a night's rest. (And it may not even be that restful for you, but at least she won't be interrupting you anymore!)

Get ready for this. (If you have friends you could ask in advance, that might help!)

Chances are, after you do this a time (or perhaps two or three), she will let you go away and sleep on the couch instead of bothering you only to have you leave the house.

[misterblister]

I think the child would be better off sooner than later living with the most stable parent, before they learn abnormal is normal. But this of course assumes you get majority custody.

But just as important, I wished I had divorced when mine were still young because I overestimated my ability to handle abnormal. In other words, by sticking it out for years, I slowly crumpled emotionally and physically (and financially) under the weight of abnormal. This happened despite my most sincere and heroic impulses.

So in the end my children had a cynical, beaten-down, depressed father when they could have had a strong role model oozing self-respect.

~14 years later my wife is finally starting to leave me and reminding me that nothing I did matters except that I hurt her. And my older children get to witness her saying that and doing that.

[prof]

uBPDw was really depressed today.  "My life is over", "I just want to die", etc.

The funny thing is she actually got out of the house for the first time in, I think, about a week and a half.  We went to her friend's house to pick up some new foster kittens.  (I'm not sure if I've mentioned this yet or not -- we've recently starting fostering stray kittens for a local charity.)

But when we got home, we took one of our other foster kittens to their new home.  uBPDw had fallen in love with this one, and saying goodbye really brought out her depression.

Not so much raging today.  Days like these really break my heart.  I have no idea what to do to help her.  And it makes me so afraid to leave her.

She just started a new antidepressent, so I'm hoping that will help.

[MrRight]

uBPDw was really depressed today.  "My life is over", "I just want to die", etc.

The funny thing is she actually got out of the house for the first time in, I think, about a week and a half.  We went to her friend's house to pick up some new foster kittens.  (I'm not sure if I've mentioned this yet or not -- we've recently starting fostering stray kittens for a local charity.)

But when we got home, we took one of our other foster kittens to their new home.  uBPDw had fallen in love with this one, and saying goodbye really brought out her depression.

Not so much raging today.  Days like these really break my heart.  I have no idea what to do to help her.  And it makes me so afraid to leave her.

She just started a new antidepressent, so I'm hoping that will help.

I am very keen to see how this resolves. Your sounds like mine - who also blames me for appetite loss - ruined mood etc. the one big difference is she wouldnt prioritise her needs over the child - so giving medicine to ill child would come first. And when she's with the child she doesnt play on her phone - she's all on him. If she's as poor a mother as the picture you paint I wonder of what value is she in your and your child's life?

All this raging she's doing while you enforce boundaries is no doubt damaging for the child. If it does not settle it wont be good.

3 days to erect a play swing?

[prof]

So yesterday was my consultation with the lawyer.

I was hoping uBPDw would be asleep when it was time to leave.  She wasn't, so I lied and said I had a meeting with my dean.  She instantly saw through my lie and guessed the truth.  "You're meeting with a divorce attorney, aren't you?"  I had to escape from my own house, with her blocking the hallway, pulling me by the shirt to keep me from walking away, and wrestling our son from me.  I said some words I'm not proud of as I left and got into my car.

During the consultation, the lawyer's eyes got wider and wider the more I told her of the story.  She recommended divorce ASAP.  My dad is ready to send a check for the retainer.

The rest of the day turned into an epic push/pull fest, complete with her putting a knife to her throat, prompting yet another 911 call from me.

We finally got to sleep around 5:00 am, after I promised to work on the marriage, etc.

I can't do this much longer.  It seems like every waking hour is filled with her raging at me.  Our house is a mess because I can't clean.  I'm completely neglecting my online class.

I'm so close to pulling the trigger with the divorce.  But I think I'm trapped in her FOG -- she's equated divorce with "killing her" since she'd lose my health insurance.

[prof]

3 days to erect a play swing?

Yeah, .  It's one of those larger ones with like 5 different types of swing, a slide, and a seesaw.  I'm not the greatest handyman. I keep realizing I put one part on wrong and have to backtrack a couple steps, etc.

[Grey Kitty]

Hang on there, man. You will find your way though it.

    Good job calling 911 when she was holding a knife to her throat! No matter how much she hates having authorities involved, that's absolutely the right thing to do. And really hard. Good work.

I'm glad you talked to a lawyer. I'm also going to recommend you post on the legal board here--There are some ways that a divorce with a pwBPD can be very different and much worse than a 'normal' divorce, and the senior folks there can help you understand it... .and help you find the correct lawyer.

The industry term for how it can go really badly is a "high conflict divorce". Ask your lawyer how much experience she has with them, and how she thinks this would go if it turns into one. (They usually take a lot longer and cost a lot more!) If she has little or no experience with them, ask if she can recommend another lawyer who is experienced with them.

[DaddyBear77]

Everyone needs to make their own decision here in their own time.

How did you feel about talking to the attorney? Did you feel relief? Comfort? DIScomfort? Did you feel like you were doing the right thing? The wrong thing?

We talked about this before and there are many ways to help your wife maintain insurance coverage, all the way from helping her find private insurance to encouraging her to find an employer that is willing to be flexible but also offer benefits, through unions (you said she was a musician? My sister in law works for a musicians union and I know that benefits for members is a huge thing). You could also do any of those things in combination with COBRA in the mean time. Your state also might offer options that include legal separation that still allows her to remain on your insurance.

My point is, please try not to let a solvable problem stand in the way of something bigger that you know is right for you and your child.

As Grey Kitty mentioned, the type of divorce you're likely to encounter if you go down that path is called "high conflict" and not every attorney is as good as they say they are. I've talked to two over the past couple of years. The first was really expensive but really good. The second was cheaper but I left with an uneasy feeling about her ability to problem solve. There's a book - Splitting - Protecting Yourself While Divorcing a Borderline - that covers a lot of this and is highly reccomended.

[prof]

Everyone needs to make their own decision here in their own time.
How did you feel about talking to the attorney? Did you feel relief? Comfort? DIScomfort? Did you feel like you were doing the right thing? The wrong thing?

Oh my -- a little of everything.  Some relief, but lots of anxiety about what's to come.

We talked about this before and there are many ways to help your wife maintain insurance coverage, all the way from helping her find private insurance to encouraging her to find an employer that is willing to be flexible but also offer benefits, through unions (you said she was a musician? My sister in law works for a musicians union and I know that benefits for members is a huge thing). You could also do any of those things in combination with COBRA in the mean time. Your state also might offer options that include legal separation that still allows her to remain on your insurance.

My point is, please try not to let a solvable problem stand in the way of something bigger that you know is right for you and your child.

Makes sense.  The lawyer also mentioned Obamacare (if it still exists afterwards... .) as a possibility.

As Grey Kitty mentioned, the type of divorce you're likely to encounter if you go down that path is called "high conflict" and not every attorney is as good as they say they are. I've talked to two over the past couple of years. The first was really expensive but really good. The second was cheaper but I left with an uneasy feeling about her ability to problem solve. There's a book - Splitting - Protecting Yourself While Divorcing a Borderline - that covers a lot of this and is highly reccomended.

Just bought it -- thanks!

Today was more of the same.  Push/pull/push/pull/suicide threat (more superficial cutting), etc.

She eventually got distracted by some drama related to our kitten fosters and laid off me for a bit.

Both her sister and mother-in-law called me today -- she's cut off communication and they're worried about her mental state right now.

[prof]

One of our adult cats didn't come inside before a big storm last night and never made it back before we went to bed.  So uBPDw was worried sick.  She woke up at like 3:30, woke me up, and we started looking.  A few hours later, I found him stuck way up in a tree.  We eventually managed to coax him down.

Good news: she had something other than me to focus her emotions on.  Bad news: she's using her attachment to our cats to try and manipulate me into staying.  ("They're all I have when you ignore me.  If you leave me, then I won't have a home and can't keep my pets."

I really don't want to spend yet another long day "working things out" with her.  I desperately need to write a midterm for my online class.  So I've gone back to reassuring her that I won't leave her.  (Me leaving has always been her biggest fear and a frequently recurring dream.)  But now, I'm pretty sure I'm lying.

[DaddyBear77]

But now, I'm pretty sure I'm lying.

 Take a deep breath. Then take another. It's OK. You're in a really really tough spot. Your child and your wife are both counting on you to get your job done. You did what you had to do, given the tools you have right now, and you've given yourself the space to think. And breathe.

When you've got the space, I have some thoughts for you.

I think it's really great that you're recognizing and staying cognizant of the differences between your inner dialog (e.g., "I don't feel that I can stay like this" and your outer expressions (e.g., "I'll stay no matter what"

If you read back into some of my story here, you'll see that I'm in a very similar spot. For me, I can see this dissonance happened from the very beginning, but over the past 5 years or so, the consequences have really ramped up.

Here's how I think it has played out for me:
I believe my uBPDw to be high functioning, but with significant impairment in a few key areas: emotional regulation (over the top anger and rage), anxiety, and depression. These particular impairments are really difficult for me personally - I think I probably experienced issues early on in my family of origin, but I haven't quite got that nailed down yet. I frequently find myself panicking when she exhibits these impairments.

Instead of staying calm and rational, which I think I am most of the time, I end up acting out of my OWN fear and anxiety, and I go full out manic, emergency, panic mode in an effort to squash her feelings.

I've labeled anger, rage, anxiety, and depression as "the worst bad things" and have therefore given myself permission to do "less bad things" to try and control HER feelings.

This is a problem.

What I've found is that after years and years of doing "less bad things," they've really added up, and now I've painted myself into a really bad corner. Her anxiety that I've tried to "control" out of existence has been amplified. More importantly, the sum total of the "less bad things" turned out to add up to REALLY bad, and now I'm faced with much bigger problems like bankruptcy and isolation from friends and family. The cycle of her anxiety -> my panic -> my "less bad" compromise to try and control her, it's a slippery slope that never ends. There will always be more of her anxiety. There will always be something else I try and control.

I'm only now starting to see how this all needs to be flipped around. First of all, rage, anxiety, and depression are neither "good" nor "bad" - they are part of the human experience. We cannot "control" these things in another person without taking away their humanity - their basic human right to be who they are, and not who we want them to be.

We must also be aware of the characteristics of BPD (and related PDs) - as a part of the pwBPD's emotional turmoil, they will likely use dysfunctional coping mechanisms to try and reduce or eliminate this horrible painful emotional state. This can include blaming us, harming themselves, using substances, projection, denial, the list goes on.

And finally, putting this all together, I believe we must be as true to our OWN emotions as possible at any given moment, and NOT get swept up in our pwBPD's turmoil. We've been given the power to manage our emotions with much greater ease than our pwBPD. We cannot use this power on other people, but we can, and must, use it for ourselves.


What does all this add up to? Well, I'd say that your lies are probably a perfectly understandable reaction to a very difficult situation. I'd also say that you would do yourself a lot of good to really question any future lies, and try and come up with some alternative ways to give yourself space. This is extremely difficult - I have NOT figured this out yet - but I know it to be the right thing for ME to do.

What do YOU think?

[MrRight]

One of our adult cats didn't come inside before a big storm last night and never made it back before we went to bed.  So uBPDw was worried sick.  She woke up at like 3:30, woke me up, and we started looking.  A few hours later, I found him stuck way up in a tree.  We eventually managed to coax him down.

Good news: she had something other than me to focus her emotions on.  Bad news: she's using her attachment to our cats to try and manipulate me into staying.  ("They're all I have when you ignore me.  If you leave me, then I won't have a home and can't keep my pets."

I really don't want to spend yet another long day "working things out" with her.  I desperately need to write a midterm for my online class.  So I've gone back to reassuring her that I won't leave her.  (Me leaving has always been her biggest fear and a frequently recurring dream.)  But now, I'm pretty sure I'm lying.

I also had an animal rescue story with my pwBPD today - might as well make someone smile with it as you brought up this early morning cat story.
We keep chickens (her idea not mine) - one got loose and we both chased it (futile - those hens are fast) "if we lose this hen I'm gonna blame you - throw your coat over it" I tried this but it dodged and ran into a thicket of brambles, thorns etc. "You ass! Get in there and find it!" One hour later covered in nettle stings, thorn cuts etc we gave up. "I'll never forgive you!" Ten minutes later the chicken emerges and flies directly back into the hen house.
Now who else but a pwBPD would go to this trouble to save a hen.

[Grey Kitty]

I have a very strong value of being truthful and honest. Often to a point which is not helpful. Some things are completely true, but are better of going unsaid. That has been a slow thing for me to learn, to say the least.

So ... .when it comes to "lying" and saying you won't leave, I really think that is probably the best thing to do for now.

Telling her that you are thinking of leaving or probably leaving  when you haven't decided to go yet is just going to destroy the remaining trust she has in you, without doing anything good.

And honestly, you really don't know if you will be able to leave or not. You fear you will have to leave. You also fear you won't be able to leave. You haven't decided to go yet.

When you decide to go, that is probably the time to tell her you are leaving. And at that time, you can figure out what the kindest/cleanest/safest way to do so is.

For now, keep those doubts to yourself, or share them only in safe places--here, or with a therapist, or perhaps possibly a trusted friend.

[prof]

Yesterday, uBPDw successfully charmed me back in, for a while at least.

She started trying to suggest I buy her some jewelry to make up for meeting with a lawyer.  Our credit cards are close to maxed out, and I just had to ask for a $500 loan from my dad just to make sure we have enough money to eat for the next couple weeks until I get paid.  (Sad but kind of funny story:  When our cat was stuck in the tree a couple days ago, we initially called a tree service to climb up and get him down.  He'd come down on his own before they arrived.  They asked for a little gas money for their trouble -- I wrote a $20 check, postdated for a few days out, which they were well aware of.  Well, they went ahead and cashed it anyway, so with the $35 overdraft fee, I was a little over $50 in the negative.)

I managed to avoid caving to any jewelry based on our finances.

At one point, she got angry and started packing up all S4's clothes and toys, claiming they were leaving to go live with a friend of hers (the maid of honor at our wedding -- she lives a couple days drive away).  She had the audacity to ask me to help them pack, and I had the spinelessness to actually do it.

Eventually, her leaving with S4 and moving somewhere turned into her leaving by herself and committing suicide.  She began going around the house, making a show of saying goodbye to all of our pets.  She started writing a last will and testament and asked me to find an envelope so she could mail her most valuable jewelry to her sister.

She also texted "goodbye" to her sister prompting her sister (who lives on the other side of the country) to have the sheriff come by our house twice for wellness checks.

She went on and on about how much she's sacrificed for me (which she has), and how much she has changed (which she hasn't very much) and how little I have sacrificed or changed for her.  How almost every problem in our marriage is my fault.  (In particular, I don't spend time with her, do romantic things for her, or clean.  She has a valid argument here, but I feel that my energy is so spent on dealing with her basic needs, dealing with her drama, being essentially the only parent to S4, taking care of our pets/fosters, and my job that I have nothing left.)

She convinced me to try marriage counseling again.  We have an appointment set up for next Wednesday.  However, she's convinced that the counseling will consist of them telling me to spend time with her and be more romantic.  And that I won't listen.

I eventually put S4 to bed and nodded off while giving him his nebulizer treatment.  I woke up shortly later to find uBPDw taking a bath and wanting to talk to me about her depression.  "What do I do?  What do I do?"

I was extremely exhausted and found myself nodding off more while she talked.  Of course, she didn't take kindly to this.  (This is a frequent problem -- she keeps me up late wanting someone to be with her, but my son wakes up at a normal time.  I take care of him while she continues to sleep.  This leaves me exhausted for the next night of staying up late with her.  On better nights, she doesn't mind if I try and sleep while she stays up, but often she wakes me up numerous time throughout the night to get her something to drink, etc.)

I drank some coffee and stayed up with her.  She become more and more hopeless.  We googled inpatient mental health facilities.  (The reviews were all too negative for her to agree to actually going to one -- plus they likely won't let her play her flute.)

Eventually, I called the national suicide prevention hotline.  She initially didn't want to speak to them, but after a while of me speaking, she took my phone and talked for quite a while.

Talking to them helped while she was on the phone, but her anxiety really started setting in again after the phone call ended.  She took some more clonopin and benadryl, we watched some tv, and finally she was ready to try and sleep around 5 am.

My son woke me up about 3.5 hours later.  

[DaddyBear77]

prof, this all sounds SO familiar to me. I'm really sorry you're going through this. You have got to be so exhausted right now. I can remember nodding off during conversations at 3 or 4 in the morning, wishing my pwBPD would just take the damn Xanax and let us all get some sleep. It's a horrible, horrible place to be. I really feel for you.

I think I've been clear that I'm only at the very beginning stages of climbing out of this mess, so I am by no means an expert or an experienced pro at any of this. But I believe fully what the pros have told me.

First and foremost you MUST find a way to give yourself some care. It's been described to me many times in terms of the airplane safety video where they tell you to affix your oxygen mask before helping others. I'd put it another way - think of yourself as bleeding profusely. You may not feel the wounds in the moment, but every minute you stay up exhausted, every ounce of emotional support you provide, that's another ounce of "blood" pouring out of you. Without a plan to stop the bleeding and get a transfusion and/or let your body replenish, you will run out and if not die, collapse and be hospitalized yourself. If you don't believe me, there are plenty of members here who have experienced exactly that.

Second of all (and yes, this is second), you will need to provide reasonable and appropriate support for your S4. With all the activities surrounding sheriffs and police coming by, you may be at a high risk of having child protective services step in and making these decisions for you. Do NOT apologize for seeing a lawyer. At least, not to yourself. You did the right thing, and you will likely need to ask even more questions as time goes on.

I think you did the exact right thing in NOT giving in to a demand for jewels, especially given your financial state. Been there. Still there. Buying her more stuff does not fix it. Believe me.

And finally, as a third priority, you will need to continue to work together with your pwBPD and any other healthcare or support providers in her life to help her find the best direction to go next. Notice how I deliberately said "work together" - you can NOT do this work for her. However, there may come a time when a professional or a hospital must get involved. Don't hesitate to use every professional and medical agency available. It sounds like you're doing this. It's not easy.

GET HELP for YOURSELF in figuring out how to be a caregiver and not let yourself stay in the caretaker role. There's a big difference. I'm still learning that.

I'm not sure if any of this is helpful - it's just stuff I've reflected on during my own journey. I hope it's helpful to you, and know that it's really really hard and I really feel for you.

[prof]

prof, this all sounds SO familiar to me. I'm really sorry you're going through this. You have got to be so exhausted right now. I can remember nodding off during conversations at 3 or 4 in the morning, wishing my pwBPD would just take the damn Xanax and let us all get some sleep. It's a horrible, horrible place to be. I really feel for you.

Thanks!

I think I've been clear that I'm only at the very beginning stages of climbing out of this mess, so I am by no means an expert or an experienced pro at any of this. But I believe fully what the pros have told me.

First and foremost you MUST find a way to give yourself some care. It's been described to me many times in terms of the airplane safety video where they tell you to affix your oxygen mask before helping others. I'd put it another way - think of yourself as bleeding profusely. You may not feel the wounds in the moment, but every minute you stay up exhausted, every ounce of emotional support you provide, that's another ounce of "blood" pouring out of you. Without a plan to stop the bleeding and get a transfusion and/or let your body replenish, you will run out and if not die, collapse and be hospitalized yourself. If you don't believe me, there are plenty of members here who have experienced exactly that.

One thing that I'm absolutely certain I must do for myself is go to an event planned for the end of the month.  I spent a lot of time at a particular family summer camp as a kid and as a 20-something staff member.  I haven't been in 11 years.  Two summers ago, the dining hall at the camp burned down.  They finally finished construction on the new dining hall and are having a big grand opening/reunion weekend.  I want nothing more than to take S4 for his first camping trip at what is probably my favorite place on the planet.  My dad will be there too.  (He actually paid our registration fees.)  I really don't want uBPDw to go, although she's currently registered.

That's still a couple weeks away, though.

Second of all (and yes, this is second), you will need to provide reasonable and appropriate support for your S4. With all the activities surrounding sheriffs and police coming by, you may be at a high risk of having child protective services step in and making these decisions for you. Do NOT apologize for seeing a lawyer. At least, not to yourself. You did the right thing, and you will likely need to ask even more questions as time goes on.

I'm definitely doing everything I can to spend time with S4 when I can.  uBPDw's asleep right now, and he's cuddling next to me as I type this.

After lunch, I think I'll take him outside to play while I finish that d$#! swingset .

I think you did the exact right thing in NOT giving in to a demand for jewels, especially given your financial state. Been there. Still there. Buying her more stuff does not fix it. Believe me.

Lol yeah.

Our engagement actually grew out of a rage-filled fight over jewelry.  We had been living together for a few months, and had just flown back from my hometown where I was best man in a buddy's wedding.  I said something indicating I might be interested in being in the r/s for the long haul.  She got really angry that I would say such a thing without producing a ring.  (I'd been thinking about starting to save up for one -- I'm the kind of guy who would vastly prefer to save up and later pay cash for something than to go into debt.  Alas, that financial lifestyle has long since been thrown out the window.)  Needless to say, we found ourself at the local Zales a few hours later applying for a credit card and picking out a ring.  :\

My mom wore a wedding band without any gems and didn't even have her ears pierced, so this whole "buy me jewels!" thing was very strange to me early on.

And finally, as a third priority, you will need to continue to work together with your pwBPD and any other healthcare or support providers in her life to help her find the best direction to go next. Notice how I deliberately said "work together" - you can NOT do this work for her. However, there may come a time when a professional or a hospital must get involved. Don't hesitate to use every professional and medical agency available. It sounds like you're doing this. It's not easy.

I got off the phone with her sister a little while ago.  She's very concerned and is willing to sign something to get her committed.  (In our state, there's some paperwork that needs to be done involving at least two signatures to get someone committed against their will.)  I may just go down this route if the suicidal thoughts don't improve soon.

GET HELP for YOURSELF in figuring out how to be a caregiver and not let yourself stay in the caretaker role. There's a big difference. I'm still learning that.

I'm not sure if any of this is helpful - it's just stuff I've reflected on during my own journey. I hope it's helpful to you, and know that it's really really hard and I really feel for you.

It's extremely helpful -- thank you!

[DaddyBear77]

I spent a lot of time at a particular family summer camp as a kid and as a 20-something staff member. 

All I can think of is Kellerman's from Dirty Dancing - that actually sounds really cool! S4 will love it!

I'm definitely doing everything I can to spend time with S4 when I can.

Spending time is great. That kid is really counting on you. By this age I'll bet you can really feel it.

She got really angry that I would say such a thing without producing a ring
... .
My mom wore a wedding band without any gems and didn't even have her ears pierced, so this whole "buy me jewels!" thing was very strange to me early on.

My suggestion here is to do something I haven't quite mastered yet: Try and look past the rage and hype about jewelry this and jewelry that, and see what's really underneath it. She may feel like her value as a person is the sum of all the reflections of all the people and things around her. THAT'S the real issue. It's got nothing to do with whether or not you got her the most expensive ring or have taken out enough loans.

I got off the phone with her sister a little while ago.  She's very concerned and is willing to sign something to get her committed.

Dude, you've got this covered. Planning for every eventuality is exactly what needs to be done here.

You're doing great - don't lose this momentum. You can do this.

[prof]

My suggestion here is to do something I haven't quite mastered yet: Try and look past the rage and hype about jewelry this and jewelry that, and see what's really underneath it. She may feel like her value as a person is the sum of all the reflections of all the people and things around her. THAT'S the real issue. It's got nothing to do with whether or not you got her the most expensive ring or have taken out enough loans.

Relevant story:  Earlier this week (I think the same day as my lawyer appointment), uBPDw was raging about how I had taken everything from her.  "What else can I give you?" she screamed.  We were in her bedroom, and she reached into her jewelry box and started grabbing a bunch of rings and earrings and throwing them at me.  "Why don't you take these too?"

Of course, a few minutes later we (well, mostly me) were frantically crawling around the floor trying to pick everything up.

It seems like she definitely sees her jewelry as some sort of physical symbol of her own value.  There's a particular pair of diamond earrings she got from her (now deceased) mother which she especially cherishes.

There's also a ruby ring that she was supposed to get from her mother when she passed away, but went missing.  (I recall frantically searching through every nook and cranny of her mother's house when we were visiting a few months before she passed.)  uBPDw is convinced it was stolen by her sister to give to her niece.  This ring often comes up when she's painted her sister black and is complaining about her to me.


There's one thing I forgot to mention from my conversation with her sister on the phone this morning.  When threatening divorce, uBPDw often threatens she will take S4 back to where she grew up and not allow me to see him.  According to her sister, uBPDw sometimes has shared this threat with their dad.

Her sister expressed concern that "preventing me from seeing S4" could mean something much more sinister than just moving out of state, but actually harming S4.

This is something I'd never considered.  She's been violent to me a couple times (she's hit me twice and once threated to stab me, although the closest knife was downstairs).  But I could never imagine her harming S4.

From my understanding of BPD behavior, a lot of it is all show to manipulate others and not so much action.  Should I be concerned?

[MrRight]

Mine used the possibility of extreme harm to S to manipulate me - when I was outside refusing to come in at one point she claimed he was dead. Of course this was a lie.

Threats of self harm or harm to someone you love a lot - or just taking away your child - cant advise you there but I am sure someone will. Probably just extreme control methods. But worrying.

Mine is also in conflict with her sister.

[Hopeful_Me]

Prof-

I've read this entire thread and though I am new to these boards, I am not new to dysfunctional, codependent behavior. I am going to tell it like I see it as I am very direct.

When are YOU going to get help?

The focus is so much on her and her insanity, yet... .you are so intensely enmeshed: enabling her addiction to the extent of your financial detriment, over-compensating your role as father so she can blow off her responsibilities as a co-parent, people-pleasing to avoid the discomfort of your current reality and on and on.

You give in to her, do for her, sacrifice yourself, your sleep, your money, your sanity - YOU are a huge part of creating this dysfunction. You have taught her she is an invalid and cannot be responsible for her own life so why should she even try?

You are dishonest - saying you won't divorce her when you know you are, saying you're ok with the smoking, the laziness etc when you are not. Do you get what I'm saying?

Your over-heightened sense of responsibility for her is causing her to have NO motivation to do anything for herself - even if she wanted to.

I use Al-Anon to deal with, and get support for, my codependency. I hope you can accept what I said as a sort of cold-water wake up. You are choosing this life of insanity because it's the easier, softer way. But in reality, it's not. It's a was of avoiding the harshness of change.

I hope you choose change because you son IS witnessing this and will mirror in his own life one day.

Peace.

[prof]

Hopeful_Me,

Thank you for your honesty!  Deep down, I know this is all true.  I desperately, desperately want change.  But it's terrifying.

What do I do?  Do I pull off the bandaid and file for divorce?  Do I stay in the relationship for a while, committed to working on my codependency?  I'm so lost.

[MrRight]

Hopeful_Me,

Thank you for your honesty!  Deep down, I know this is all true.  I desperately, desperately want change.  But it's terrifying.

What do I do?  Do I pull off the bandaid and file for divorce?  Do I stay in the relationship for a while, committed to working on my codependency?  I'm so lost.

File for divorce?

You mean tell your wife you want a divorce - go to a lawyer etc.
Leave with your child? You would have to do that I would think.

[DaddyBear77]

When my uBPDw threatened to take D3 and run for the hills, I took it seriously but also understood the logistical complications involved in truly executing that threat. I never felt that physical harm was a threat to D3 but to myself, certainly.

What is your gut reaction when you think about the possibility of harm to S4? No one on these boards could possibly know more than you do about how real that possibility is. We all know it has happened that a parent causes harm to themselves and their child simultaneously. It's a horrible tragedy when it happens. It's extremely rare. Then again, we are on a forum focused on serious mental disorders.

Regardless of the threat level, it's clear that your pwBPD isn't fully up to the challenge of a 4 year old. The fact that you provide coverage for your wife so often is one indicator. The fact that your wife is struggling with frequent suicidal ideation and threats is another. That's not the mark of a competent parent.

One thing to consider is that much of this will NEED to go through the legal system. Ask many "what if" questions to your attorney. Know your rights. If she leaves with S4 and for any reason you feel that either your S4 and/or your wife is in danger, call 911 immediately. Ask your lawyer to be sure about this.

Stay rational. Stay grounded as much as possible. There's merit to working on yourself while you try and determine your next move, but try and stay focused on the work required to make that next move. Don't fall back into complacency and acceptance of bad behavior by either your wife or yourself.

I'm going to go do the same now

[Hopeful_Me]

I can share what I did when I couldn't control the insanity - including my own.

I asked for help. I surrendered.

I called AA because I wanted to find out how to *fix* him. They told me I needed fixing and gave me the number to Al-Anon. Now, I don't want to come across as if I am recruiting for Al-Anon here - as I do post that in a lot of my posts, however, it does work for people like us - whether or not your loved one has obvious addiction issues or not (your wife seems to). It is a support fellowship for friends and families who are affected by the insanity of dysfunctional people. From my personal experience and my research on BPD, many BPD's turn to chemicals to deal with their intense dysfunction. My ex-bf  - the one with BPD traits - is an alcoholic/addict who has been to rehab 5 times. He just came out of one 5 months ago. It's a co-occurring illness directly related to the mental health issues he has.

I have learned to have boundaries - firm boundaries - I have learned how I contributed to the dysfunction, I have learned how to have compassion for these people, how to understand it's not their "fault" but it IS their responsibility. And, I have learned how to relinquish my control and gently hand over their life so they can be responsible.

Just two hours ago, my former sister in law called me from South America - where she lives - to tell me my ex husband - an alcoholic and severely dysfunctional 55 year old man - had been arrested AGAIN for domestic violence upon his current wife. He has NO money, no job, no drivers license, and literally not one friend who he can turn to in his town. The family is freaking out thinking he will get hurt in jail. I told them he is there because he earned that cot by getting drunk and becoming violent to his wife. So, he must feel - deeply feel - the consequences of his actions EVEN IF it makes the family uncomfortable. He has 3 meals a day there and a bed. He won't die. This is MY boundary. I won't bail him out, but I will support him appropriately. I wrote him a letter, to the jail, said he could call me and I will pay for the call. I helped the sister put some $$ on his commissary account so he can buy hygiene products and better tasting food. That's it.

So, before you make a decision under intense confusion and fear - get some help to bring you out of the FOG and into the light. Seek intensive therapy - maybe go more than weekly, seek a support group al-anon or if a BPD family group exists, go there. This is serious stuff. You want to make a clear headed - not a knew jerk- decision. Especially knowing that BPD's WILL turn on the charm once they fear losing you. You can become intoxicated by that as well, and make you lost your stable foundation.

If you want to PM me for support, feel free. There is also another thread that may be helpful buy MovingOn - another man trying to make his way out of a long term marriage. He documents his journey well. I will try to find it and post back here.

You are not alone.

Here is the link:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=301473.msg12874134#msg12874134

[prof]

I think right now I'm in a place where I want to stay in this for now, but I definitely need to work on me and my boundaries.  I just bought Walking on Eggshells and am working through that.  After that, I'll go back to reading Codependent No More.  (I had borrowed the ebook through my local library, but couldn't renew it because several other people had put a hold on it -- obviously I'm not alone!)

My next therapy session is a few weeks ago.  I just sent his office a note hoping to schedule some more after that so I can try and avoid more big gaps between sessions.

Last night, I was hopeful that I could get a good night's sleep.  uBPDw was asleep when I finished putting S4 to bed, and I thankfully laid down for some sleep.

Maybe an hour or so later, she woke up with anxiety and asked me to join her in the bathroom so she could smoke.  I crankily agreed, and soon angered her with some of my actions (I again refused to contact the music director I mentioned in an earlier post.  A few minutes later, I was moving some laundry over from the washer to the dryer and told her I wanted to finish this before coming back to the bedroom to talk to her.)   This drove her to more suicidal threats, and she ended up holding ~50 oxycontins in her hand for about 20 minutes.

She eventually calmed down and put them away, and we got a few hours sleep before S4 woke up.

Today seems better (so far).  Right now, she's getting ready to actually get out of the house and so some things together as a family this afternoon.

[MrRight]

I think right now I'm in a place where I want to stay in this for now, but I definitely need to work on me and my boundaries.  I just bought Walking on Eggshells and am working through that.  After that, I'll go back to reading Codependent No More.  (I had borrowed the ebook through my local library, but couldn't renew it because several other people had put a hold on it -- obviously I'm not alone!)

My next therapy session is a few weeks ago.  I just sent his office a note hoping to schedule some more after that so I can try and avoid more big gaps between sessions.

Last night, I was hopeful that I could get a good night's sleep.  uBPDw was asleep when I finished putting S4 to bed, and I thankfully laid down for some sleep.

Maybe an hour or so later, she woke up with anxiety and asked me to join her in the bathroom so she could smoke.  I crankily agreed, and soon angered her with some of my actions (I again refused to contact the music director I mentioned in an earlier post.  A few minutes later, I was moving some laundry over from the washer to the dryer and told her I wanted to finish this before coming back to the bedroom to talk to her.)   This drove her to more suicidal threats, and she ended up holding ~50 oxycontins in her hand for about 20 minutes.

She eventually calmed down and put them away, and we got a few hours sleep before S4 woke up.

Today seems better (so far).  Right now, she's getting ready to actually get out of the house and so some things together as a family this afternoon.

It would be futile for you to help her career along with a call to the music director - a sane person would understand that.

[MrRight]

I think right now I'm in a place where I want to stay in this for now, but I definitely need to work on me and my boundaries.  I just bought Walking on Eggshells and am working through that.  After that, I'll go back to reading Codependent No More.  (I had borrowed the ebook through my local library, but couldn't renew it because several other people had put a hold on it -- obviously I'm not alone!)

My next therapy session is a few weeks ago.  I just sent his office a note hoping to schedule some more after that so I can try and avoid more big gaps between sessions.

Last night, I was hopeful that I could get a good night's sleep.  uBPDw was asleep when I finished putting S4 to bed, and I thankfully laid down for some sleep.

Maybe an hour or so later, she woke up with anxiety and asked me to join her in the bathroom so she could smoke.  I crankily agreed, and soon angered her with some of my actions (I again refused to contact the music director I mentioned in an earlier post.  A few minutes later, I was moving some laundry over from the washer to the dryer and told her I wanted to finish this before coming back to the bedroom to talk to her.)   This drove her to more suicidal threats, and she ended up holding ~50 oxycontins in her hand for about 20 minutes.

She eventually calmed down and put them away, and we got a few hours sleep before S4 woke up.

Today seems better (so far).  Right now, she's getting ready to actually get out of the house and so some things together as a family this afternoon.

One thing I have picked up here is the idea of invalidation. So her wanting you to have a serious chat being interrupted by you attending to the washing - to the BPD mind that is invalidating - I hope someone will correct me if I am wrong. This would explain her violent reaction to what she sees as your dismissal of her. There has to be another response to her demands that you phone the musical director - a way of saying no that doesn't invalidate her. Perhaps tell her she will lose respect in the pro world if she needs her husband to get are moved up the orchestra.

[BeagleGirl]

This drove her to more suicidal threats, and she ended up holding ~50 oxycontins in her hand for about 20 minutes.

I think this is an excellent opportunity to set and enforce some boundaries. 

Threats of suicide, real or as a manipulative tool, require a response.  Since you don't have the training necessary to distinguish between real and manipulative threats, ALL threats must be treated as real.  Worst case scenario, you are calling a bluff that she never intended to act on and SHE causes a whole lot of drama and repercussions over nothing.  You may be the one calling the ambulance and having her committed for a 72 hour hold, but SHE is the one who is causing it.  That's something you need to be really solid on in your mind (though you will probably never convince her of it).

So here are what are reasonable responses to what your wife did.  I see the act of holding a lethal dose of pills as an escalation that warrants what may seem like extreme action on your part.  I'd advise removing any pills from her access to prevent a repeat performance, but if she does anything similar, here is the response that I would like to see you take. 

Always carry your phone with you so that you don't have to leave the room to get it.  Call emergency services.  Explain that your wife is holding a lethal dose of pain killers and threatening to take them.  Ask that an emergency vehicle be sent to take her to the hospital.  Explain that you have a young child in the house and would like to stay on the line until emergency services arrives.  When emergency services arrives, she MUST go with them, even if she has not taken the pills and has put them away.  Ask that she be committed on a 72 hour hold and explain the suicidal threats to the doctor in charge.

Spend the 72 hours preparing for her return.

All potentially lethal medications/cleaners, etc need to be under lock and key.  You are the only one who has access to them.  You dole medications out to her upon request as prescribed.

Your child should not be left unsupervised with her until she is no longer making suicide threats for x period of time.  Arrange for child care or trusted friends/relatives to be with her and your child any time you are not. 

Keep a journal of EVERY threat of suicide, even the veiled ones.  Record the date, time, and wording.  I think it would be advisable to get her into counseling ASAP.  While a counselor can't share information with you (unless your wife agrees) you can share information with the counselor.  I would provide an update on any suicide threats that have occurred via email to the counselor prior to sessions so that they can address them with your wife.

Develop your suicide threat response.  I've had to do this for my BPDh but have not yet had to use it, since he has only expressed his suicidal thoughts to our counselor (who has his permission to share anything from their sessions with me).  My response follows the SET structure:

I don't want you to die.  I value your life and know it would be a huge loss to myself, our sons, and your friends and family if you were to die.  I know that you must be in incredible pain if you are considering death as an option.  I also know that if you were to die the boys and I would grieve for a time, but we would survive.  We would eventually understand that suicide was your choice and not our fault.  I would probably remarry.  The boys will most likely find wives and have children.  You would always be a part of our memories, but you would not be there to meet your daughters-in-law.  You would not be there to watch your sons become fathers.  You would never get to experience holding your grandchildren.  They would not have a special name just for you.  There is so much for you to live for, that I want you to get the help you need to no longer consider suicide as an option. 

Do you think that the recommendation above is something you could/should follow?  If not, do you have a different plan for how to handle the next suicide threat?

[Hopeful_Me]

**warning - tough love ahead**


Reading self help books does nothing to create inner change. It may answer questions, may even find relief, but will not cause you to change your behavior.

Would it be OK if all she did to get help was read a few books?

Waiting weeks for a therapy session is a waste. Either you want to MAKE change happen, or you want to remain in the disease.

The 50 pills? They are her strings to the marionette that is you.

You allow her to run, and ruin, your life. She is your jailer. And you are hers. If YOU don't take effective action, what hope does she have? Or your son?

[MrRight]

I think this is an excellent opportunity to set and enforce some boundaries. 

Threats of suicide, real or as a manipulative tool, require a response.  Since you don't have the training necessary to distinguish between real and manipulative threats, ALL threats must be treated as real.  Worst case scenario, you are calling a bluff that she never intended to act on and SHE causes a whole lot of drama and repercussions over nothing.  You may be the one calling the ambulance and having her committed for a 72 hour hold, but SHE is the one who is causing it.  That's something you need to be really solid on in your mind (though you will probably never convince her of it).

So here are what are reasonable responses to what your wife did.  I see the act of holding a lethal dose of pills as an escalation that warrants what may seem like extreme action on your part.  I'd advise removing any pills from her access to prevent a repeat performance, but if she does anything similar, here is the response that I would like to see you take. 

Always carry your phone with you so that you don't have to leave the room to get it.  Call emergency services.  Explain that your wife is holding a lethal dose of pain killers and threatening to take them.  Ask that an emergency vehicle be sent to take her to the hospital.  Explain that you have a young child in the house and would like to stay on the line until emergency services arrives.  When emergency services arrives, she MUST go with them, even if she has not taken the pills and has put them away.  Ask that she be committed on a 72 hour hold and explain the suicidal threats to the doctor in charge.

Spend the 72 hours preparing for her return.

All potentially lethal medications/cleaners, etc need to be under lock and key.  You are the only one who has access to them.  You dole medications out to her upon request as prescribed.

Your child should not be left unsupervised with her until she is no longer making suicide threats for x period of time.  Arrange for child care or trusted friends/relatives to be with her and your child any time you are not. 

Keep a journal of EVERY threat of suicide, even the veiled ones.  Record the date, time, and wording.  I think it would be advisable to get her into counseling ASAP.  While a counselor can't share information with you (unless your wife agrees) you can share information with the counselor.  I would provide an update on any suicide threats that have occurred via email to the counselor prior to sessions so that they can address them with your wife.

Develop your suicide threat response.  I've had to do this for my BPDh but have not yet had to use it, since he has only expressed his suicidal thoughts to our counselor (who has his permission to share anything from their sessions with me).  My response follows the SET structure:

I don't want you to die.  I value your life and know it would be a huge loss to myself, our sons, and your friends and family if you were to die.  I know that you must be in incredible pain if you are considering death as an option.  I also know that if you were to die the boys and I would grieve for a time, but we would survive.  We would eventually understand that suicide was your choice and not our fault.  I would probably remarry.  The boys will most likely find wives and have children.  You would always be a part of our memories, but you would not be there to meet your daughters-in-law.  You would not be there to watch your sons become fathers.  You would never get to experience holding your grandchildren.  They would not have a special name just for you.  There is so much for you to live for, that I want you to get the help you need to no longer consider suicide as an option. 

Do you think that the recommendation above is something you could/should follow?  If not, do you have a different plan for how to handle the next suicide threat?

Not sure about USA - but here in the Uk - an ambulance wont come out to a threat of suicide - only actual self harm that is deemed to be life threatening. If you call with a suicide threat - you will be given advice and referred to a mental health practitioner.

[DaddyBear77]

prof and others-

This would be a great time to review the lesson and protocols on Suicidal Ideation in Others we offer here:
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=79032.0

One of the key steps here is to remove weapons, stockpiles of pills, etc.

My pwBPD is very aware of her history of ideation. It is for that very reason that we do not keep guns, knives, or any quantity of obviously lethal pills or poisons in the house. It helps that she is aware of this and cooperative, but honestly even if she wasn't, I'd still insist on that basic precaution.

Finally, I'm sure it varies by jurisdiction in the US, but the night my wife locked herself in her car in the driveway with a knife held to her wrist, the local police department sent two officers to the address and took her to the hospital for evaluation. She hated me, raged at the officers, and said horrible things. But it saved her life.

Don't mess around with ideation and threats.

Please read this:
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=79032.0

[heartandwhole]

Hi prof,

I'm really sorry that you are going through this. It's a very difficult situation to be in, and I understand the conflict of wanting change and at the same time being terrified of it. I think that was a very honest statement that you made. You are not alone.  

I would like to suggest taking pen to paper and making a plan. Sketch an outline of your goals, pros and cons, steps you will take today toward emotional health. They can be tiny steps, but do them. If you are so conflicted that you can't decide which steps to write down, make a separate list for staying and going.

I encourage you to review the purpose of this board. If you are leaning toward staying in the relationship, and expect to have a chance of things getting better, then you'll need to learn the tools on the Improving board, and practice (practice, practice) them. If you are leaning toward leaving, take a look at the Family Law, Divorce, and Custody board and read some posts. They will enlighten you as to what might be ahead and you'll learn ways to increase your chances of a best-case-scenario outcome.

It sounds like boundaries are something that you would benefit from working on. I can very much relate.    Have you seen the article below? It helps to get really clear about what boundaries are and aren't. They spring from our values, so we need to know what those are (not always cut and dry, even to ourselves!):

Setting Boundaries and Setting Limits

Communicating with empathy and support is very important to most people with BPD, as they often have high needs for both. Expressing a boundary using S.E.T., for example, will help make it seem less like a rejection. Don't worry if it feels weird or mechanical at first, and your wife may react badly, too. Keep practicing, and you will find that it becomes a way that you can genuinely express your support, empathy, and truth to her (and to all your loved ones in your life):

Comminciate - S.E.T. (Support, Empathy, Truth)

Although your son is very young, he is being affected by the constant fighting and stress in your home. Divorce is also a big stressor for children. It's a terribly difficult situation to be in, but I think spending some time evaluating the best route going forward — perhaps with a level-headed and trusted friend, lawyer, therapist— is extremely important right now. More important than the daily dramas that only feed the inertia.

Here is a quote from the "Who Should Post On This Board" pinned post above:

What we do know, is that the longer you stay undecided, the longer you will be in emotional pain. If you are going to stay, then you need to commit to working on what you can control. If you don't feel you have the strength or desire to keep working on things, then you will find peace in moving on... .Either way - That fence post can't feel good where it's at... .


Share your steps toward change with us. We're here to cheer you on.  

heartandwhole

[prof]

Not sure about USA - but here in the Uk - an ambulance wont come out to a threat of suicide - only actual self harm that is deemed to be life threatening. If you call with a suicide threat - you will be given advice and referred to a mental health practitioner.

Yeah, they just send police for threats in the US.  This has happened twice in the last couple weeks (I probably should have called them again this most recent time, but I was exhausted and not thinking as clearly).