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Author Topic: Do they honestly understand their huge mistakes?  (Read 1016 times)
blueblue12
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« on: June 02, 2017, 02:08:31 AM »

Broke up after ten years together and two months after going NC she started reaching out crazily. She had missed me so much, I was the love of her life, she couldn't live without me, etc. We met it was as if we started again for a short period, the recycle phase, then issues came up again. One of the things that really bugged me was the new relationship that she started while living with me but according to her we were separated and had communicated that with me clearly. The trouble is during that period at times she was also confused and at times would be warmer towards me, as if she was torn and did not want to lose me completely.

Anyway my dilema is do people with BPD see these new relationships as an out, an escape and then do they really realise their mistake? Is it honest? Or the new guy just didn't work out? How they see things? With her there is no empathy is like "oh yes I went out with this guy, didn't last long, he was terrible, but I told you we were separated" all matter of fact. Somehow the hurt that I encountered does not really matter. How do you see it? I am curious.

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« Reply #1 on: June 02, 2017, 05:41:38 AM »

With her there is no empathy

I think your answer lies here. I'm quite a long way out from my relationship now, and looking back I think the thing that stands out most is the lack of empathy. This was at the heart of all the disappointments, arguments, fall-outs that we had. At some level she definitely knew there was something amiss with her, but these moments of clarity and honesty were very rare.

I think at the beginning of the relationship she genuinely wanted the best, she wanted it to work and she did like me. But as things started to go wrong, she got angrier and angrier at me and then the dysfunctional behaviour emerged - the stalking, the insults, the sudden discard, the regrets.

And things started to go wrong because of the lack of empathy and this was at the heart of the failure of the relationship. My belief now is that when she made the mistakes, she literally couldn't see how hurtful her behaviour was to me. She saw the relationship only through her eyes, she couldn't see how her actions were selfish, that they would lead to the end of the relationship, that they hurt me, and she couldn't see all these things, because she has no empathy. What is so damaging is that when I would react to her selfish behaviour, I don't think she could understand why I was getting upset. So her solution was that obviously (at least in her mind), I must have a problem. And this is why her life pattern is that almost everyone else has a problem - like all of her exes and her mother and her daughter, in other words almost everyone she was close to. And if she has enablers, she can tell the stories of all these terrible people, and play the victim. At is all other people's fault. And how do I know this, because this was pretty much the first thing she told me when I first knew her. The victim thing was her identity and I think she uses it to define who she is.

The thing is, for her, she didn't have something - empathy - and as is always the case, if you don't have something, then you don't really know what it is or what it means. She didn't know what it is like to have it, and for her, she couldn't see that her lack of empathy was a problem, because she doesn't know what it is.

A simple example came to mind this morning.

I once bought her a little gift, on ebay, and had it delivered straight to her home as a surprise. I saw her the next day, the day after I knew it had been delivered, and was hoping for a "thank you"... .or something similar. I had gone out of my way for her and I think my actions would normally be viewed as relationship building and a nice thing to do.

So I go over and see her... .her first words to me... ."I've got a bone to pick with you". I'm thinking what the heck? What's coming my way now! Apparently she wasn't at home when the parcel got delivered, and because she didn't know what it was, she opened the parcel in front of the neighbour who took delivery, and so she was a little embarrassed.

So, guess what, I get criticised and shamed.

It is so topsy-turvy, all she could focus on was her embarrassment, she couldn't see that my actions were positive and warm and kind. That I was trying to show her that I liked her and wanted her to be happy. She just couldn't see it, all that she could focus on and see was that she felt a little embarrassed that her boyfriend had sent her a gift. And what should have been a nice little episode in our dating, became a point of pain for me, and she just couldn't hold back from using the incident to make me feel bad.

It's a small example, but it encapsulates the issue. Her brain couldn't cut through the fact that my actions were good and positive - all that she could see was her embarrassment... .it is all about her and her feelings, never about me and mine.

And that was the relationship... .it was all about her... .over and over again... .none stop.

So does she know, then yes, at some level, she knows that there is something not quite as it should be, it is tucked away, deep and in the moments of clarity she had occasionally then yes, she sort of knew that she was what you might call "off-centre" but most of time, then no, and especially when she became dys-regulated , then all bets were off and she was capable of pretty much anything.
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« Reply #2 on: June 02, 2017, 06:18:49 AM »

I agree with Stimpy.  I just separated 5/19 from my husband of 17 years.  The other word I would use is "lacking insight".  My husband would from time to time say "I know I'm hard to live with" but the only things he would do about "being hard to live with" were things for himself.  His defense in moments of perhaps some awareness was "I try hard".  But again, what he tried hard at was the stuff he wanted to do for himself like exercise, run his business and gush over his acquaintances and clients.   All these things were about him and nothing about our relationship -- although if pressed he would say - I exercise to look good for YOU!  I work hard to make money for YOU! 

 I guess (we both thought) that if he ever got to "happy" through these self centered behaviors that everything would be ok.   This is why everyone in a relationship with a BPD just shuts down,  eventually you know that if you stand up for yourself, try to explain, they won't "get it" - they just get angry.  My husband wore his horrible childhood and low self esteem like a crown on his head, always the victim.   My opinion is that the only way they would be able to develop empathy and insight would be by working with a really good therapist... .and my husband would never stick with counseling or meds or any of the things that might have helped.
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« Reply #3 on: June 02, 2017, 06:46:33 AM »

I agree with Stimpy.  I just separated 5/19 from my husband of 17 years.  The other word I would use is "lacking insight".  My husband would from time to time say "I know I'm hard to live with" but the only things he would do about "being hard to live with" were things for himself.  His defense in moments of perhaps some awareness was "I try hard".  But again, what he tried hard at was the stuff he wanted to do for himself like exercise, run his business and gush over his acquaintances and clients.   All these things were about him and nothing about our relationship -- although if pressed he would say - I exercise to look good for YOU!  I work hard to make money for YOU!  

 I guess (we both thought) that if he ever got to "happy" through these self centered behaviors that everything would be ok.   This is why everyone in a relationship with a BPD just shuts down,  eventually you know that if you stand up for yourself, try to explain, they won't "get it" - they just get angry.  

Great points. She said she needs to work on herself and can't be in a relationship. Well what did she do during the relationship? Take care of herself! She always put herself first after the idealization phase. I mean the truth is that the real work on herself would have been fighting to make relationship changes, work on active listening, emotional regulation, etc. But it's not my problem. I guess the best way to learn empathy, and love others is to focus solely on what you want to do  

The second point is dead on for me. I did shut down. After realizing that any concerns I brought up about "us" would become defensiveness, anger, or the classic "do you want to break up?" I just shut down. And my way to cope was to not speak, and to just center myself again. Well even after I told her that was what I was doing because IT WAS WORKING FOR ME to regulate my emotions and process my emotions when I was being quiet she would still poke and prod to find out why I was being quiet. And then BAM... .i finally tell her why and we fight. She couldn't just let me process, think, and feel the emotions. She wouldn't let me speak about them. She wouldn't let me have any emotions that weren't pure joy and elation 24/7

My ex knows she hurt me. It was the last e-mail she sent me. How she will never forgive herself, etc. Well I'm wise enough to know from all these people hear that other exe's have said the exact same things. It's behaviors. Not words that matter.

One more thing. My ex has been seeing the same therapist for close to a decade. So the point of it being a really good therapist is key. her therapist seems very Rogerian style which just doesn't work for someone with these traits. She apparently tries to hold her accountable on some things based off what she has told me, but probably gets more sympathy with the victim card. Or else she wouldn't go to see her. It's probably why she quit couples counseling with me. She said it was "too much work", and he was kind of seeing past her as the victim. Trying to hold us both accountable. Oh well.

Sorry for rambling about myself. But I couldn't relate more to what everyone is saying.
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« Reply #4 on: June 02, 2017, 06:51:28 AM »

Thank you so much for your insights Dark Horse, Stimpy and Roberto,

Yes I see that we went through similar experiences. Now that I see it clearly I can see that rather sad side, the trouble for me was that throughout the years I had no idea. She would pick fights with me often and they would escalate to enourmous proportions and I would sit there quietly thinking how the hell did this start again? At the end I would always blame myself. I was the controlling and insecure guy as she repeatedly told me, I had problems.

Now that she wants to recycle me again I had to call it and I actually said to her "I am sorry darling but you have issues you need to address, you have a personality disorder" and she actually said "don't talk about that, I am just trying to remedy all the bad things people did to me" so at that moment during a 4am call in which she was rather distress and I had to take the call, she actually revealed something.

But a few days later she said "by the way I have asked my T and other T's I've had before and they don't think I have a PD", so there you go. Then when I said that you need to work on the impact of your actions she said "well you seem to be judging me here, you need to work on your things too", so it's never ending.

At the end she is asking me for a 'fresh start' forget about the past, let's move on and start again, but without the realisations? I don't think there is a good future ahead. It will end up in tears again and again. That's how I feel at the moment.
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« Reply #5 on: June 02, 2017, 06:57:19 AM »

That's gotta be tough Raul. But you seem to have the logic, and understanding that you just can't have a clean slate with someone like this, or for yourself in that matter. Relationships have a dance, and it's real tough to break it, and learn new steps. Far too easy to stick with the tried and true even if it leads to more pain/heartbreak.

The fact she is not willing to see possible traits, and that she's still the victim also confirms what you are thinking. When I went to therapy and he said I had co-dependent traits I wanted to dismiss him. But I decided "I don't know everything." thought about it, and he was right. For me, the only way to really change is to open that dark closet filled with all those things we might not know about ourselves or do know but are afraid to look at. Until we shine a light on all of those things change is very difficult.

Sounds to me like she won't ever open that closet door.
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« Reply #6 on: June 02, 2017, 07:57:18 AM »

Sorry Ox, just one more post I promise Smiling (click to insert in post)

For me, the only way to really change is to open that dark closet filled with all those things we might not know about ourselves or do know but are afraid to look at. Until we shine a light on all of those things change is very difficult.

This is a realisation I have come to as well. My natural engrained personality has been very much as a fixer / helper / rescuer / white knight. And that's great in some situations and is a good thing to have and I am glad that I have those traits in my personality. But those traits can also lead me into emotionally dangerous waters, especially in relationships where my instinct is to try too hard to solve problems that are way beyond my abilities. It's a tough realisation to come to terms with and to internalise, it is you might say, work in progress  Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)

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« Reply #7 on: June 02, 2017, 08:05:28 AM »

If we could just lock this thread now that would be great.  Why is it that every now and then I read these things and I end up realizing there is a lot of dust in the room causing my eyes to get irritated and water... .
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« Reply #8 on: June 02, 2017, 08:18:21 AM »

I forgot to address your initial question Raul. I'm sorry. In my experience/what I'm learning is that IN THE MOMENT they really do want us back, long for the connection, etc. Now this is just my theory on the matter, but I think the constant recycles, push/pull come so frequently after the first end of the relationship because now they have the abandonment fear in the back of their head even more because, in a way, we have confirmed it. So if they "give themselves" they risk being abandoned or hurt. And they view it as an inevitability. Just like us. But we tend to push through that because of either codependency/the addictive re-wiring of our brains that want the "fix" again.

They really do crave the "parental attachment" they didn't have. So I think it's common for them to run from relationship to relationship or hobby to hobby. Anything they can hang their hat on to feel a part of something.

I thought she was so cruel to recycle me, but as she said, "I wanted to try again at that time". I thought she was cruel to do the push/pull, but as she told me "I'm just so confused". It's all true. It's the all or nothing thinking, indecisiveness, fears of abandonment that all come into play. That can make it hurt even more because for a brief glimpse they want us again. She truly did want to try again in that moment. I have my own thoughts on how you either do or do not in a relationship but that's for another post Smiling (click to insert in post) The problem is that when things get difficult for them/the endorphins wear off again after a recycle they just cut and run again. Then they hurt, are confused, want to try again. Abandonment fears come up/disappointments, etc and they run. Etc, etc, etc... .
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« Reply #9 on: June 02, 2017, 08:46:04 AM »

I don't think they do see their huge mistakes, They know they are not right but it's too hard for them to see their own humanity. The lack of empathy was huge in my RS. Before I had ever heard of BPD, I had said to her many times that she had no empathy for me or my kids. It was truly all about her. The only people she seemed to have empathy for were her own kids.
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« Reply #10 on: June 02, 2017, 10:47:12 AM »

Ox I didn't get your post... .?
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« Reply #11 on: June 02, 2017, 11:12:34 AM »

After really upsetting me my ex tried to play it off as if I deserved it or her behavior was not really that bad. She was so self absorbed and blind she did indeed have a lack in empathy. Not a complete lack but no where near enough to have a real relationship.
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« Reply #12 on: June 02, 2017, 12:26:22 PM »

Somehow the hurt that I encountered does not really matter.

are we really asking "will my ex come to see things as i see them, and perhaps validate my pain?"

a lot of our pain comes from expecting our partners to be different than who they are. its attachment to the outcome, so to speak.



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« Reply #13 on: June 02, 2017, 12:54:44 PM »

Ox I didn't get your post... .?

The following hits me hard.  I have emphasized where it hit the most.  I have also changed a few words here and there to better fit my circumstances.  The bold are things that I feel are spot on for her.


   "I think at the beginning of the relationship she genuinely wanted the best, she wanted it to work and she did like me. But as things started to go wrong, she got angrier and angrier at me and then the dysfunctional behavior emerged - the pushing away, the anger, the sudden discard, the blame, the projection.
   And things started to go wrong because of the lack of empathy and this was at the heart of the failure of the relationship. My belief now is that when she made the mistakes, she literally couldn't see how hurtful her behavior was to me. She saw the relationship only through her eyes, she couldn't see how her actions were selfish, that they would lead to the end of the relationship, that they hurt me, and she couldn't see all these things, because she has no empathy. What is so damaging is that when I would react to her selfish behavior, I don't think she could understand why I was getting upset. So, her solution was that obviously (at least in her mind), I must have a problem. And this is why her life pattern is that almost everyone else has a problem - like all of her exes, in other words almost everyone she was close to. And if she has enablers, she can tell the stories of all these terrible people, and play the victim. At is all other people's fault. And how do I know this, because this was pretty much the first thing she told me when I first knew her. The victim thing was her identity and I think she uses it to define who she is."


   "The other word I would use is "lacking insight".  My husband would from time to time say "I know I'm hard to live with" but the only things he would do about "being hard to live with" were things for himself.  His defense in moments of perhaps some awareness was "I try hard".  But again, what he tried hard at was the stuff he wanted to do for himself like exercise, run his business and gush over his acquaintances and clients.   All these things were about him and nothing about our relationship -- although if pressed he would say - I exercise to look good for YOU!  I work hard to make money for YOU!  
   I guess (we both thought) that if he ever got to "happy" through these self-centered behaviors that everything would be ok.   This is why everyone in a relationship with a BPD just shuts down, eventually you know that if you stand up for yourself, try to explain, they won't "get it" - they just get angry. My husband wore his horrible childhood and low self-esteem like a crown on his head, always the victim.   My opinion is that the only way they would be able to develop empathy and insight would be by working with a really good therapist... .and my husband would never stick with counseling or meds or any of the things that might have helped."


   "The fact she is not willing to see possible traits, and that she's still the victim also confirms what you are thinking. When I went to therapy and he said I had co-dependent traits I wanted to dismiss him. But I decided "I don't know everything." thought about it, and he was right. For me, the only way to really change is to open that dark closet filled with all those things we might not know about ourselves or do know but are afraid to look at. Until we shine a light on all of those things change is very difficult.
   Sounds to me like she won't ever open that closet door."


   "For me, the only way to really change is to open that dark closet filled with all those things we might not know about ourselves or do know but are afraid to look at. Until we shine a light on all of those things change is very difficult.
   This is a realization I have come to as well. My natural engrained personality has been very much as a fixer / helper / rescuer / white knight. And that's great in some situations and is a good thing to have and I am glad that I have those traits in my personality. But those traits can also lead me into emotionally dangerous waters, especially in relationships where my instinct is to try too hard to solve problems that are way beyond my abilities.    It's a tough realization to come to terms with and to internalize, it is you might say, work in progress Doing the right thing
   And why do those traits exist... .well an emotionally dangerous childhood is at the core of it and I learned very young that being a people pleaser was the best way to survive day to day. But those lingering traits lead to relationship chaos if my partner has an abusive nature, the dance begins of me trying to please, while my partner just takes and takes and takes.
   Blaming my ex is no solution, she is what she is, and I can't change that, and it's not my responsibility to. I see my responsibility as being more aware of my traits, and to make sure that I never allow this type of event to ever happen again in my life."


   "Like you, I was lost and searching for answer about how she could act the way that she did when I had devoted my entire life to her. What I learned was that the level of devotion I gave her, and my efforts to keep the relationship together were the very things that tore it apart."



So much of this thread speaks so directly to what i have discovered about myself and my role in the failure of this relationship and other things i struggle with.  It also speaks to the things that just are what they are relating to the EX.  Just sad really... .She is a great woman 80% of the time.  That 20% makes it such a waste of potential... .
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« Reply #14 on: June 02, 2017, 01:08:34 PM »

Raul,
  Relationships are very "interchangeable" we are a NEED to soothe whatever they need in the moment.

We are not a person with feelings.

They live very much in the moment and that moment, those needs can flip on a dime. Do they realize their mistakes? Sort of... .in the only way they can but it's not processed with the same level of remorse we have. They lack empathy and along with that they lack true remorse. Their actions justify their feelings (to them).

As far as the reach out, that usually occurs when they are not secure in their new relationship. They need an out... .or several outs. This is very common. Rarely is anything sincere. It's about survival for them.
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« Reply #15 on: June 02, 2017, 02:03:11 PM »

Hi Raul,

Although my ex didn't seem to get with anyone else during our r/s, or hid it well, I'd agree that the lack of empathy - just being totally unable to acknowledge the impact he had on others - was a massive theme during our relationship.  He literally wore people down to the point where all good intentions towards him were used up and couldn't understand why people didn't continue to give him everything he wanted/needed.  The number of examples I could give are countless. 

Regards other sexual partners he often bragged about how he'd only had a low number (probably because of the duration of his relationships including all the recycles) and after we went LC initially he made a point of 'confessing' that he'd had hundreds of partners in reality.  I was later told that he said this to make me jealous.  Little did he realise that was the final straw for me.  I'd had so many lies I could take no more.  I no longer could distinguish the truth in anything he said and even took myself to the sexual health clinic for a full screen just to be sure.

During one of his last rages I was doing everything in my power to breeze through it, remain calm and collected and not to 'prod the tiger'.  We were due to be at the doctor (his appointment which I was driving him to).  As a distraction to his onslaught and to try to keep the schedule I lifted my coffee to finish drinking and get going.  He saw my hand trembling as I did so.  Later he told me he was mortified that I had been shaking because of him and never ever wanted to see that happen to me again.  So he did glimpse it briefly and was aware of what he was doing to me.  In the same way he seemed really sad when I started to take antidepressants.  Do you think anything changed?  No.  The obvious emotional and physical effect he had on me soon lost it's weight when he was destroying my phone, preventing me from entering my home (or else he would launch me out into the yard if I came up the steps) and throwing heavy items at me.  Soon after he was the one unable to enter my home under threat of the police.

The way I see it is that he is a lost little boy who needs to be looked after by someone and that is why so quickly after we ended he had someone else waiting in the wings to take over the role.  When one has served their purpose and is no longer willing to provide what he requires, they must be replaced with a new willing candidate.  So I believe it is natural behaviour to always have someone to run to and they're oblivious of what we feel about this as it doesn't impact them.  Only things that impact them are acknowledged and the world is a big scary place they encounter where everything and everyone is out to get them, so they construct this big fantasy where they are the star player out of a need to protect themselves from their intense feelings of vulnerability and fear of abandonment.  In the last 3 months since I went NC, he has reached out a few times to check if I'd still be willing, saying things like 'please just tell me to let go.  I've met someone else but can't be with her whilst I still love you... .' etc. etc. to establish if I might be happy to take him back.  I never responded.  His last message was a fortnight ago, telling me he needed help and would pass my number to his solicitor and giving me opportunity to say no to this.  It was sent with the profile picture of himself with the new supply.  Again, I've not responded.  He's making no secret of what he's doing - and why would he?  It makes total sense to him and is probably all he's ever known. 

I once said to him that just because I don't feel emotions to the same overwhelming degree as him, that doesn't mean I don't feel them at all.  He looked at me as though this were a revelation.  It was soon forgotten when his own agenda took centre stage once more.  He was unable to see what his behaviour was doing to me.  Luckily I got out when I did.

Love and light x 
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« Reply #16 on: June 02, 2017, 03:17:36 PM »

It's about survival for them.

This is a REALLY KEY point here, I think.

What is it about for the pwBPD? Is it really about being vindictive? Is it about causing their r/s partner some pain? Do we think they have empathy to give but purposely withhold it or deny it's expression?

Probably not.

Take a look at this post:
https://bpdfamily.org/2010/12/do-people-with-borderline-personality.html

Excerpt
When Do Our Empathy Skills Fail

Having empathy isn't so easy when we are in a distraught emotional state ourselves. It can be hard to give when we are needy. We have all been there at times. Showing empathy isn't so easy when the person we are trying to comfort is having an experience we can't relate to - either in terms of noticing it or it terms of how to respond to it. We have all found ourselves in this situation at times.

A Person With BPD Fails for the Same Reasons as We Do

Having empathy isn't so easy when one is in a distraught emotional state. Keep in mind that BPD sufferers are often flooded with conflicted and painful emotions. During times of dysregulation, an emotional response that is more intense than normal, Borderline Personality sufferers can be so overwhelmed with emotion that makes them, at worst, incapable fo normal functioning , and at best, internally focused, self centered and self absorbed.

Often a person with BPD doesn’t have emotional energy to spare to consider the emotions of others.

Showing empathy isn't so easy when it's an experience we can't relate to.  People suffering from BPD have a problem with poor emotional vocabularies, meaning they find it hard to label and understand - their own feelings - let alone understand others. This inability to understand or accept their own feelings leads to feelings of confusion, shame and self hatred, one of the defining traits of a BPD sufferer. Additionally, a person suffering from Borderline Personality Disorder is often not very kind to themselves. They often comfort themselves by dysfunctional means - cutting and self injury are a good examples of dysfunctional soothing.

Even worse, if a pwBPD perceives they are being attacked or criticized by our pain and suffering, or that there is even the possibility of being attacked, their defenses may go into over drive and the attack rather than empathize.

I think THIS line of thinking goes to the heart of the empathy issues we see in a relationship with a pwBPD.
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Rayban
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« Reply #17 on: June 02, 2017, 04:35:53 PM »

^that's spot on.

I believe that BPD's have enough empathy to choose people or rather are drawn to people with scarring.  With time, age, and a multitude of failed relationships they know something is wrong. The disorder takes over, and they choose to project on the current partner 
As being the problem.  In they're mind they are unlucky at love. They just haven't found the one. The pattern just repeats with the next one.

As long as there are willing participants they see no reason to change. I know with certainty that if I ever meet( and I know I will, until I resolve my own personal issues) and they play victim to their abusiness exes within the first few dates ... .then I'm out of there.
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blueblue12
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« Reply #18 on: June 03, 2017, 03:18:01 AM »

Wow, amazing posts up here, thank you all for the time and insights. I am taking it slowly at this point in time. My T always says, there is no hurry, see how things pan out slowly, and if there are no visible changes then it will not be sustainable, it will all go through the same pathways. As much as I miss her and think of her on a daily basis and deep down I guess I would like her to reach out from time to time, the terrible time I encountered during the discardement left me so bruised. I can't see how I could ever trust anything she says.

We were 'separated' while living together and do it lots together and while I was trying my best to keep the marriage together. And I wasn't convinced that we were actually separated, as I could see glimpses of changes at times. Nevertheless she had started a new relationship unbeknown to me. I was never told. I actually found notes and stuff in the house once she left. So it was sad and extremely hurtful. So she could look at me in the eye, give me a kiss, but deep down it wasn't sincere. So how do you trust again? Ever? I can't see it.

She talks about fresh start, moving on, we both made mistakes, stuff like that, but I was completely devoted so it doesn't make sense to me from her perspective. It is sad as I thought in my heart we were going to be together forever, I was pretty settled and after fourteen years together I felt that closeness. She looks at it straight forward, with lots of nice words but not much action. Actually she says a few nice words then goes quiet for a few days or a week and right now I don't feel like contacting her, so I just wait for her to reach out. If I do I would feel like I would lose the little self respect I gained since the split.

My T thinks that she is probably getting worse with age and unless she faces the real issues, things will keep happening to her. It is so sad when you face this after so long. And I had no idea about the borderline side, I knew about her childhood and it was sad, so I did my best to be a compassionate husband, supportive, loving, the facilitator, that's who I was all along. As much as I am still fond of her immensely and sometimes I think it could have been an obsession I can't see myself accepting her terrible downturn on me. I just think it will happen again.

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balletomane
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« Reply #19 on: June 03, 2017, 01:21:29 PM »

My experience with my diagnosed BPD ex is very similar to Stimpy's. As far as my ex was concerned, he was always the victim (he actually used that word to describe himself) and everyone else in his life was the one with the problem. As with PrettyWoman's ex, he seemed to view me as a means to fulfil a need. On the day he calmly told me he'd got into a new relationship with his flatmate, completely out of the blue, he seemed to have no conception of why I would be hurt. He said to me, "I hope you'll stay friends with me, because I need you," and went on to explain that he didn't feel able to tell his new partner about his self-injury just yet and he would rely on me to support him when he'd cut himself. He seemed to have no sense that this was in any way an unreasonable expectation, and when I was too upset and filled with grief at having been discarded to be cheerful in the few IM conversations he initiated, he accused me of being selfish. "You're reacting to my happiness with depression. That's emotional extortion. Why can't you just be happy for me?" In his mind, I had no right to feel unhappy; he could literally only see his own needs.

This became even clearer about eighteen months later, when I got the chance to talk to the woman he'd replaced me with (and whom he treated equally badly and whom he also broke up with in a cruel and selfish way). She hadn't known he had cheated on me. He'd told her our relationship had ended over a year before they got together (!). At first this gave me a bizarre kind of hope that he felt remorse. If he'd honestly believed that his behaviour was OK, why would he have lied to her about it? Then she told me that he had felt my loss when I'd gone NC; he had occasionally told her how much he missed me. She said she had no problem with him reaching out to me, and he told her he would be willing to repair the friendship - if I apologised for how I'd treated him! So again it became plain to me that even when though he had a sense of loss, he wasn't missing me as a person, but only what I'd provided for him.
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joeramabeme
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« Reply #20 on: June 03, 2017, 01:38:51 PM »

Anyway my dilema is do people with BPD see these new relationships as an out, an escape and then do they really realise their mistake? Is it honest?

Great question and great replies from all.  

Your questions made me think about my exuBPDw telling me that she wasn't happy and so was leaving our marriage.  Aside from the obvious lack of assuming responsibility for her own happiness; after she left I found a journal of hers in which she was bragging to a friend about how she had left every man she was ever with because she wasn't happy.  How damned sad is that?

She left our marriage and started an online dating account.  What for?  If she simply ends up being unhappy, why not just stay single?  :)o I think she realizes the impact of this on her life, no!  Not anymore than an alcoholic who tells themselves that they are alcoholic and then reaches for another drink - that is not someone functioning with awareness or sound mind.

Is it honest?  To them it is, to us it is not.  Who is right?  I believe we are, but then again, if I am right why bother spending time with someone who simply cannot be fully honest with themselves?  Just a shame that it takes many of us becoming so entangled to first become aware of what is not right with them and then afterwards aware that we must have an offsetting quality that would make us want to stay put or go back to a r/s that can be toxic.
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blueblue12
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« Reply #21 on: June 03, 2017, 06:45:43 PM »

Joeramabene I had similar thoughts about the continuous relationships, they are all short, troublesome, bad, so why not stay on your own for a while and work it out? With my ex her dishonesty I really struggle with now. I was pretty naive so I never really thought she would have been capable of doing stuff behind my back, it was horrible as I never envisage a slight inclination to stray from her. I have learned much about myself with the help of my T, my codependency got the better of me. I was also extremely obsessed with her and craved her closeness, intimacy which at one point, the beginning, I remember it as been great.

Balletomane, I had similar experiences with my ex. I remember when things were getting quite sad between us, one day I just broke down, quietly crying in front of her and she just coldly looked at me and said "you are not well, just get some medication". When she was in a new relationship without telling me and we were finally separating, she was going on a short trip probably expecting me to stick around I guess but it was over so I finally said goodbye. She then freaked, "you can't say goodbye" etc, etc... .I was meant to be in the background somewhere, when we finally met after NC for two months, she was so sorry, she felt angry with herself, etc, but like Roberto has said in some of his posts, lots of nice words, but no real actions.

Also the fact that they hurt us deeply is not really acknowledge, with my ex is more like, yes I know I was in a new relationship, but get over it, sort of thing. No real connection to the impact of any of their actions. As my T says these are real things, bad things took place, it wasn't like she had a cold or something, this was stuff that damage a marriage deeply, so it can't be taken that lightly as just put in the back and move on to a fresh start. Very sad... .
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roberto516
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« Reply #22 on: June 03, 2017, 07:10:10 PM »

My ex wants to work on herself so she says. She's aware she doesn't love herself. Where I feel bad is that she never had a problem putting herself first. Her difficulty was loving another human being. She always did what she wanted and it never filled her void. So I don't see where she's gonna improve. BUT it's not my problem.

When she discarded me again she said she was depressed and didn't do self care for a week. I even tried reaching out telling her she could talk to me. But the previous post says it all. She was depressed. It had to be my fault.
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“Pain and suffering are always inevitable for a large intelligence and a deep heart. The really great men must, I think, have great sadness on earth.”
heartandwhole
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« Reply #23 on: June 04, 2017, 04:44:16 AM »

Also the fact that they hurt us deeply is not really acknowledge, with my ex is more like, yes I know I was in a new relationship, but get over it, sort of thing. No real connection to the impact of any of their actions.

This is very painful, Raul, and something that I've experienced as well.   The pwBPD with whom I was involved was very aware and did at times show empathy and remorse after acting in ways that hurt me. That really helped. But as  Bullet: contents of text or email (click to insert in post) DaddyBear77 alluded to in his reply, there were times when he was in the throes of dysregulated emotions that I believe he just wasn't capable of putting himself in anyone else's shoes. He explained something to that effect to me once. It was as if he was in an alternate reality that later he recognized as not making sense in context. It IS sad.

I also think that these seemingly abnormal/cold reactions to our pain may well stem from a sense of shame. For some with BPD, admitting that he/she did something "wrong" or hurtful could evoke a tsunami of shame, so defense mechanisms come out in full force to prevent that from happening.

Have you seen this? These are some common ways that a pwBPD might be thinking, which can be so destructive to themselves and their relationships:

20 Common Negative Assumptions in BPD Thinking

heartandwhole
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When the pain of love increases your joy, roses and lilies fill the garden of your soul.
blueblue12
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« Reply #24 on: June 04, 2017, 08:52:48 AM »

Heartandwhole thank you for the link and writing. I understand the shame aspect and I do think she may have that in admitting to the demise. In times when she has approach me and has been weak she has revealed some of that. She has alluded to some undertanding by letting me know that she is angry, depressed and sad about what she caused. Then she has gone to say that she would like to make a fresh start. I am really afraid of getting back as I am not sure if it is just a quick recycle as I have been quite distant lately or a real attempt.

Problem for me is attempting anything really. I feel too scared to start a connection, get hooked again and then dumped again. We have been living apart for nearly six months now after living together for ten years and sharing a fairly busy but close life. It certainly feels weird. In some ways I feel resigned to just let go as much as I miss her and think about her every passing day.
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JHKMX

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« Reply #25 on: June 08, 2017, 01:29:35 PM »

Some great responses in this thread. Needed to read this today.
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