The problem with friends

[Lollypop]

Hi

I spent a good four hours having a natter with my best friends. I always find this hard. I want to see them, hear their latest news and have a few laughs. I love this part. But there's always the bit where not so good news is shared (gossiped?) and yesterday there was quite a discussion. Since my DS returned I see my friends less and less (partly because they've no interest at all in my art course and that's a huge part of me now but also because I know in my heart I'm being judged).

So it turns out two of my dear friends believe "bad choices" are due to the way the kids have been raised.

One said: "I've raised my kids to not take drugs and if they do they know they'll have me to deal with. I know they never will."

The other "Absolutely. It's nurture over nature."

The pair of them sat there and were so judgmental over two mutual friends that they feel are pandering to their kids who are struggling with anxiety. I heard phrases like "if my daughter had done that I'd have dragged her out by the hair", "they just need telling NO"", "What's with all of these anxiety issues with kids today, it's ridiculous", "it's time to man up and get on with it".

I love my friends but do not like the way they think sometimes. I know they feel I'm too soft on my DS and I know they talk about me behind my back. I get that they don't understand, that the fact I've got a 26 adult son still living at home is an alien concept to them. They believe I should just have said "no". They also believe that we shouldn't put up with his drug use.

I think I need new friends. I'm feeling a bit sad to be honest. It takes a long time to grow a friend.

How do you cope with your friends ?

LP

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[wendydarling]

Hi Lollypop 

I felt sad with you reading your post, hard stuff to hear  , I'm glad you see it in the light they don't understand mental health and their views come from that position, you could give them a master class LP.  Sounds like the mutual friends they were talking about may be worth reaching out to for understanding and sharing experience?

How do I cope with my friends? My situation is different being a single parent friends (DD's and mine) are like family to me and DD, they are an empathetic bunch they all reached out during DD's crisis 2 years ago. DD and I have been very open and I think that's helped people share and join our journey. And we've made new friends, through friends of friends, a ripple effect.

Perhaps it takes less time than you think to grow new friendships, people who share your values, emotional intelligence, interest in art and learning, cabins, and not forgetting canal boats, pretty perfect friend to me!

Your friend WDx   

[beady]

I expect most of us here struggle with the same opinions of friends about our home situations. I know I do, and have started avoiding invites to reunions with past co-workers. I tired of the obvious one -up manship of everyone bragging about how well their children were doing, new grandchildren, career successes. I decided that it wasn't worth the days after spent feeling sorry for myself. People are so easy to judge others when their world is turning as it should. No one but you lives your life, knows the day to day struggles, the small joys that we find to keep us going. I now pick and choose who I hang out with and what I attend. My feelings come first. It's way too hard to pretend happiness over others joy when our own hearts break nearly every day. I have an undiagnosed 33 year old daughter who has cut off contact with my husband and I and a 31 year son with schizophrenia who now lives with us. No way is anyone other than someone in a similar situation going to be begin to understand what our lives are like. My husband and I find it difficult to even get away for a vacation. So, I am lucky in that I've always been creative. I knit for the homeless and children's hospital, and make jewelry. It's a bit lonely, but think it's better than trying to sit through yet another brag session with friends. Sorry I'm not more helpful. I'm just letting you know you are not alone with these feelings.

[MomMae]

Oh my goodness, Lollypop, I can't tell you how sorry I am that you are feeling this way and how much I understand!  I actually got goosebumps reading it, that is how much I relate. 

Thank you for posting this, as it almost feels like a taboo subject sometimes as how often have we heard, read, been told to reach out to friends... ."talk to a good friend".  Well, what happens if you do finally open up and then you feel like you have now lost your friends, too.  It has to be a pretty special person to sit with you in your pain, and while they do exist, they are few and far between. 

Last June, I was at the annual "girls weekend" with my pals from high school - we have been friends for over 30 years - when a crisis developed with my daughter.  My husband held off telling me as long as possible, but needed help tracking her down as she disappeared after going out for a walk and not coming back.  So there I was, sitting with my six pals, laughing and having a good time, when the text came in from my husband.  I guess I had a look on my face, because someone asked if I was okay, and I just started bawling.  So they got a short version of what we have been dealing with.  They were sympathetic and I went home feeling better for opening up.  Until time passed and things went radio silent from most of them.  Only two reached out and asked how I was, how my daughter was.  All it took was a simple email.  As it turns out, one of those two has had a similar horrible experience with her 15 year old daughter.

Now, a year later, it is time for the annual weekend together.  I am not going.  How can I?  The last time I saw them I was in the most vulnerable emotional state and, now I feel embarrassed about it.  I don't expect the world, but these days when we have text and email, what does it take to express caring? I have been there for each of them through very difficult times and the first time I need them I feel very judged by their silence. 

I have always disliked get-togethers that are really nothing more than a brag fest.  I guess I now realize that this is what the relationship with my old pals has become... .  I don't need that.  I would rather have no friends than to come home from a visit feeling bad about myself as opposed to energized.

Lollypop, I am so sorry that you are feeling sad.  It was very inconsiderate of your friends to talk in such judgemental terms, particularly when they are aware of your situation.  Someday, they too, may feel this judgement as you never know when life will throw you a curveball. 

You are a great friend to everyone on this board and I hope you feel the love coming back to you.  I wish I had more friends like you in my "real" life. 

  MM

[Lollypop]

Dearest ladies

You are all so wise and, if I can say so, a lovely comfy shoulder for me to lean on today.

Bragfest is a new word for me and it's a perfect description.

Mommae raises a very good point about being told to reach out to family or friends for support. Good and effective support isn't always available is it and that's where the forum can be a critical lifeline for us.

I can only speak for myself - my family is a complete waste of time. I've two very good friends who try to understand and importantly don't judge  (a true blessing) and of course this wonderful forum full of friends who know exactly what I'm feeling.

It's ironic that this particular group of friends have been with me through the worst periods and now Im healing and DS is progressing I end up feeling bad about myself. I arrived a bit early and shared my good news with a couple of them. It was like they were embarrassed and "well, as long as he's working". It felt very awkward.

WD: Yes new friends are needed. I've changed so very much these last 18 months. I'm embarrassed to think that I was that judgmental myself - it makes me shudder. I like my "new" me and she's staying. 

Beady: if ever there was a helpful statement it is this "I decided that it wasn't worth the days after spent feeling sorry for myself." You're so right. I'd be the first to admit if I was feeling sorry for myself - actually it was the realisation that they truly don't understand just how far we've come as a family and they don't really care if the truth be told.

Mommae: I'm sorry you're not feeling able to go to the reunion. I hope you change your mind but I've got to say you're right about spending time with others and coming away feeling negative about yourself. That's what I've been doing and that's not taking care of ourselves is it!

Thank you for your friendship - my cup runneth over.

LP

[Yepanotherone]

I'm rights there with you LP . I consider myself lucky in that I have two extremely good friends who I know don't judge me too harshly but they are back in Scotland . One of those friends was recently diagnosed with BPD and has had bipolar for years , and my other good friend had a brother with BPD and Bipolar ( who actually commited suicide 8 years ago  ) but these two friends have grown up with the trials and tribulations of these disorders and are always empathetic to our situation . Additionally , they have known my DD all her life and so truely care about her .
On the other hand , there are the people I aquaint myself with for socializing her in Colorado ( and similarly when we lived in Florida )  These " friends " are more superficial . One of them is a professor in psychology , but yet I still find myself telling her only bare bones . She has a picture perfect family , all doing well , her daughter has just graduated from high school and is about to take up her place in Uni to study medicine . Myself and hubby went along to the high school graduation party a couple of weeks ago and while I'm happy for them as the successful family that they are , i can't help but feel that huge lump in my throat with all these celebrations .
These " superficial friends "all know about our DD's mental health struggles and are always empathetic , but funnily enough I've kept my mouth tightly shut with sharing the fact that we also have drug abuse in the mix now . Somehow or other I keep that info to myself , my close family members and my few TRUE friends in Scotland . My gut tells me that drug abuse somehow tends to enter into a whole different ball game in regard being judged my others , so I just keep that to myself for the most part . Even though my mum , dad and brother back in Scotland are always ready to listen , I get a sense though that even they judge us a little , and aportion " blame " on myself and hubby to a certain extent for moving countries in the first place and possibly " triggering " my DD 's mental health issues . It's just as well  I'm quite happy with my own company most of the time though it can get Lonley sometimes .
I'm so sorry LP about your friends being so insensitive and judgemental. Time for some new friends. I agree with WD , the ones who have have similar issues to our own make for the most understanding.
Big hugs xxx

[Lollypop]

Hi there Yep

Thank you for posting. Quiet family judgment - oh yeah I know that one!

You've hit the nail on the head:

I'm quite happy with my own company most of the time though it can get Lonley sometimes .

I guess we reach a point in our lives that we need to change the way we make friends. Our kids are now grown so we can't rely on that school Social thing any longer. It's like we're square pegs trying to fit in a round hole - just like our kids. It's lonely regardless if you live in the city or rural life. I'm lucky to have discovered education in my later life and my art friends are great (if a little odd like myself!). Got to keep that sense of humour Yep and find yourself some likeminded people.

Im going to ponder. Would you like to make some friends or are just happy to focus on the family and problems for now?

LP

[Fie]

Hello Lollypop 


I so much understand what you mean. Since I have started working on myself I also became less judgmental and also for me it feels like some of my old friends do not fit me anymore.

Especially this one must be particularly hard for you :

So it turns out two of my dear friends believe "bad choices" are due to the way the kids have been raised.

On the other hand... .truth is relative I think. I do not think there's an absolute truth. Maybe your friends are right, maybe they are not.  Maybe the truth is in between, maybe your son became the person he is now because of some negative experience in school at a young age - and also this is nurture and not nature. So if this is the case, your friends are right in some way, because also this would then have been part of his upbringing.

And maybe the real beauty in friendship is being able to stay friends even if you strongly disagree. Maybe friendship is about being able to stick up for your opinion, without expecting the other one to change his/hers. If that would be the case, than it could be them expressing this above statement (in a respectful way !), but also you telling them you do not agree and telling them to watch out a little because they are hurting your feelings.
You could also agree to not talk about this topic anymore until you feel more secure / comfortable doing so. If they are your real friends and love you, they will probably respect your wish.

I have friends who sometimes express their very strong negative feelings towards refugees. (I'm in Europe so this is an important topic here) I totally don't agree with them, and I tell them. I sometimes also ask myself 'how can I have friends like that ?'. But at other times I see how they sometimes help people in need, and I see how they are good towards children. I guess having some strong opinions that are the opposite of mine, does not make them bad people, or not even people I don't want to hang out with anymore.

On the other hand, if you have the feeling these friends cross your boundaries all too often, I think that's a different case.

I know they talk about me behind my back.

This is an interesting one. How do you know they talk about your back ? And how do you know they mean it in a bad way ? In a group of friends it is I think inevitable that people gossip about each other.
I also don't really like gossiping, and it came up last week at work. One colleague said gossiping was not all that bad, it has a social function. I think she could be right. Even between friends it could be important that we share the 'negative' stuff about each other to the others. How else can the others know about what we go through (if we do not tell them ourselves), if our other friends do not tell them ? We also must watch out to not judge them too quickly for having bad motives. Maybe we can also look at it objectively :
"my friend A told my friend B that fact X has happened at my home. They talked about it. I personally think that fact X has a negative connotation, I think they also think it has a negative connotation. I think fact X is not my fault. I think that they think fact X is partly my fault."

First of all a lot of assumptions there. And second, even if the 'I think' would become 'I know', does it really matter ? So what if your friends think that you should be harder on your son. You think you shouldn't. But as long as you do not have to deal with your son together with your friends, does it really matter ?

I also think that some topics are really hard for us. Your son having BPD is probably a very sensitive topic for you. My mum is BPD and I know my friends don't understand. Some of them even tell me 'why don't you visit her, you probably got some things wrong about her, ... .'. Then I think 'but I *told* you how it was / is for me !' and it feels frustrating.
These are not bad people, they are good friends. They just do not understand. I think for some things, you just have to have lived the situation to understand. And if you do not understand something fully, you have different believes around it ('Fie could be a better daughter and care more for her mum'  -  'Lollypop should be harder on her son so he would not have strange behaviors'.

xx

[Yepanotherone]

I think I'll just stick with what I have for now LP in regards our circle of " socializing friends " because I don't feel I have the energy nor the inclination to put in what it takes to form new friendships . Nine times out of ten , we find we have to let our current circle of friends down by not attending events and gatherings , either because something kicks off with our DD or we just don't have the energy to go .
There was a lady who I really gelled with when I was going along to a parent support group that ran alongside when DD was doing the intensive outpatient therapy programme . We really hit it off , share the same sense of humor and had a lot of common ground with our DD 's ( her daughter is Bipolar ) . She's on my Facebook now and we occasionally message but so far haven't really forced the friendship any further . Likely due to lack of energy on both our parts ! We should make the effort though , if even for venting !
How about you ? Any inclination to make new friends ?

[Skritty]

Hi
I too have been exposed to people judging our parenting, as a cause of our son's BPD. I can readily admit that actions and attitudes in my past probably exacerbated my son's situation. But it is apparent to me there had to be a catalyst. My mother's family has a history of mental illness, which I understand is a risk factor for personality disorders.
My "trump" card on this matter is to point out that we also have another son, who grew up in the same household, under the same rules, attitudes and actions. He has no sign of any mental disorder, and is doing absolutely fine in his life. So much for this being all about "nurture over nature".
I think we all know the reality. I suppose there are extreme cases where BPD was totally caused by parental abuse. But likely this is an extremely small percentage. I firmly believe all of us parents did the best we could raising our children and hoped that the would become successful adults. Unfortunately it is evident that even under the most ideal parental circumstances, these disorders can still manifest.
Personally I simply disregard those that try to tell me "poor child rearing" is the cause. Those people really don't know what they are talking about.
Skritty

[Cowan]

I find it very difficult and  exhausting.  It is impossible for others to understand abusive and disruptive behavior unless it is an obvious disorder like autism.  My daughter is embarrassingly mean and hateful towards me, but can be quite the charmer to others. 

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Circle]

Hi,
I only read your original post.
Just wanted to say that I can relate.
Just now, in the middle of life some of my oldest friends & I aren't seeing eye to eye anymore.
It's difficult to think of letting friends go.
I hear you.
Their judgmental attitude toward things, including you as you suspect, is intolerable.
I hear that kind of stuff around family.
I certainly don't want to have to feel judged by my friends.
Don't know what to tell you.
Other than I know, it's frustrating.
And, I wouldn't blame you for finding better things to do with your time than judgmental people.
Hang in there!

[Lollypop]

Hi everybody

Thank you all so much for posting as it's means a lot to me. The problem of friends is something we have in common.

So after my pondering... .I like to sleep on things, these are me thoughts.

I've changed myself so much that I'm now a different person. I'm more open and less judgmental. I can see I need to work a bit harder on my communication skills and assertiveness with my friends. They are a bit insensitive and Fie's right about me telling them how I feel. Recognising that I can't change others, respecting that they have other points of view I hope there's enough left over in the things we do have in common to have a friendship. Actually, we are all very different and only have motherhood and some history to link us.

I spent my life trying to make my DS conform to society's rules. I thought that would make me a good "mum" and it mattered what people thought of us. We are tribal by nature and want to surround ourselves with similar people; my friends are wary of "difference" and they judge. I used to play the victim but don't any more. I'm pretty quiet about my DS now so they obviously don't understand where I'm at in my head because I've been reluctant to go there because of being judged.

I can see that my new skills can help me. I guess I need to work out how much I value certain friendships - this group come as a whole and they can't be cherry picked.

Cowan: I'm glad you've posted and you're so right about it being difficult for others to understand. My DS internalises so from the outside he sounds charming, calm and collected. His appearance is what gives the clue that he's different.

I've got to go now

Thanks again

LP

Ps. I think being 6 in a playground would be easier! Perhaps that's the answer and find my inner child ! Tee hee

[Cowan]

I find i lack theme energy to form new friendships  and it makes me depressed.  
I can't share how awful my daughter is to anyone.

[MomMae]

Cowan;

Please know you can share anything about your daughter here without judgement.  We understand.  That is what this forum is all about.    And I totally understand how you feel about forming new friendships, I feel the same way right now. I hope it changes in the future, but luckily I am mostly an introvert and comfortable being alone much of the time. 

[Fie]

Hello Lollypop,

I think you painted a quite accurate picture of the way your friends are being judgmental and I think I got it.
If I understand correctly, they have seen behaviors of your son that are a bit 'off', and they (partly) blame you (you are being too soft on him). They however never heard the full diagnosis. Am I correct ? So in their head, you should change the way you approach your son, and his behaviors will alter.

How about telling them that it's not that simple, that there is an official diagnosis by clinicians, and that there are specific ways to deal with this specific problem ? That normal logic does not apply here ? That you appreciate their advice, have tried it out in the past and have seen it doesn't work ? And that you now are doing it the way it should be done, as advised by medically schooled professionals ?

I must say that a lot of the skills we learn here at this site are at first sight very contra-intuitive to me. All of the validating, etc., ... .while I sometimes would just like to say 'take a hike'.

Being vulnerable with people can sometimes give us the surprising gift of their empathy.

[Lollypop]

Thanks Fie

They knew of the BPD dx but see it as one of those quacky labels. This makes me back away bringing him up in discussion. Over 18 months they can see the improvements and I've explained that this is down to me changing my approach but they don't ask how I'm doing that.

All they can see is that he's being pandered to. For instance, why would I take an adult who takes drugs and isn't working full time away on an amazing road trip to Csliformia? This is an alien concept to them and it would be pointless to explain that it was part of our healing process as a family (which worked!).

The core problem was our poor relationship. Since improving that relationship he now listens.

I like your suggestion about using advice from medical professionals. I haven't told them about the re dx GAD, depression and BPD traits simply because of their original reaction. I told one of the group about my DS wanting to end his life recently and I'm sure that's filtered through to the others (but maybe not).

I get your advice and knowing what is truth too. I'm a little reluctant to try and explain to them because I don't think they can ever get it plus I don't want to be anywhere near the edge of playing the victim cliff. I've been there before.

I'll also throw in the role of social media as I know one of them most probably looks at his account and sees photos of the local drug dealers dogs. We live in a small town and there's little privacy.

Thank you for your kindness and thoughtful responses. If I get the opportunity I'll give your suggestion a try if I feel comfortable - timing is everything !

LP

[Rockieplace]

Hi there dear LP.

I've been keeping up with your posts while being a lazy b... .about posting myself. Ive needed to take a break from BPD for a while for the sake of my own health and sanity. I will post an update in a separate post.

I have to say firstly how impressed I have been by your wise words on here over the past year and how much you must have helped and encouraged others with them. It seems to me that your experience has been transformative in so many ways. I think that myself (on good days ) that what we have been through and are still going through with our dd has made me into a better and more thoughtful person.

Back to friends. I'm so sorry to hear that these 'friends' are not supportive. I wonder if I would have been the same in the past. I hope I would have had more empathy.  You really do have to walk a mile in our shoes don't you?  I think you may have outgrown these particular friends by the sound of it. As you say, you only had motherhood and a bit of history to go on. 

I have been very lucky in that my friends have been very supportive and very encouraging. They have always made a point of reassuring us that they think we have been great parents and that it wasn't anything we did or did not do. Many of them have had problems in varying degrees with one or more of their own children though. It's amazing how common it is nowadays. As said before, drugs and internet influences have most certainly played a part.  I also have a couple of very good friends who havent had kids and they are amazingly thoughtful and empathetic too. I think they are probably thinking they had a lucky escape in not having kids when they hear some of my tales of woe 

I'm sure that there are friendships ahead of you that will prove much more fulfilling and fun. I've made some great new friends in my sixties so it is never too late!

Your lazy friend RP x 

[Lollypop]

Hi there RP

I get the time away. I hope you've felt the healing benefit of some normality while your BPDd is in residential. I'm glad you're back for a while at least.

It's surprising just how important the forum becomes in life. I say forum, what I mean are the people on it. As time goes by we connect in such an intimate level that we are friends.

I declined a gig ticket to go out with the group. Preferring to spend the night away on our little canal boat (new acquisition to give us a little headspace, particularly H).

I've visited two friends yesterday and dropped in the conversation about my DSs depression and said how I've been a bit down since February; affected by his downward spiral, just how difficult it is to be with somebody every day that doesn't want to live. Fies advice was good.

Meanwhile I've organised a few days out in the summer with art friends. Planting friendship seeds and reaching out, building my own life.

I'm really glad you've got such good friends. Worth their weight in gold.

LP

[MomMae]

It's girls' weekend this coming weekend with my old high school pals of more than thirty years, though of late most of us only see each other at our once yearly weekend.  I am not going this year.  Last year, BPDdd now 20, was going through a crisis while I was with the girls.  She disappeared, H did not know where she was (with a stranger) or what to do.  Usually I am the co-ordinator when things go bad.  So he had no choice but to fill me in - he still feels guilty that he interfered with my weekend - I don't blame him, he didn't really have a choice, we have to be on same page - not excluding each other.  So, long and short of it, I opened up to them (the gal pals).  Felt good at time, soon felt bad when weeks passed and only 2 of the 5 present asked how my daughter was, how I was.  Really weird/hurtful was that the two that I was actually closest with previously, did not contact.  When, much later, we were eventually in touch (by text) about other things and they asked how I was and I said in a sentence or two that life was tough, they responded with only silence.   

One of them turned 50 yesterday so I sent her a text as I do every year.  When she responded back it was with a brag text about the doings of her and another ":)ance Mom", (referring to kids in competitive dance, someone I don't know) and then asked about my "situation" - was it "still the same, better or worse". It sounds like a multiple choice question. How do you respond to that?  She knows my "situation's" name... .My daughter is not merely a situation.    I told her life was chugging along and wished her a good weekend.

I am a little bitter I guess.  I have been the one to be there for these friends in some very tough times they have had. Maybe I should have told her I have been getting support from my new "BPD Mom" and "BPD Dad" friends.  Thank you friends!