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Author Topic: Loving Detachment...this is not easy  (Read 1084 times)
jones54
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« on: June 13, 2017, 07:01:41 PM »

 I am the divorced father of a 32 yo daughter with severe BPD. She also has addiction issues beginning with alcohol in her mid-teens that progressed to heroin use. She is very intelligent having eventually graduated from college with a degree in English and actually is now in Grad school to get a MSW with extra credits for addiction. She wants to counsel. I believe she has now been sober (never sure) for 18 months (new record). That is the positive. It has been a "living Hell" raising her. She has had emotional difficulties since a teen. She has had such severe addiction issues that she has been in rehab around the country 4 separate times with multiple detoxes. Her mother and I divorced about 15 tears ago and I raised her along with her younger brother (who is now happily married but has no relationship with her... .he lived with all the chaos).  Throughout the years I have had boundaries because of her drug usage. Never for her BPD. Recently she seemed to be doing better so I tried to rebuild our relationship. Unfortunately she decide she wanted nothing to do with me. She has been in a Rage against me for probably 3 to 4 weeks. She blames me as well as her mother for all her unhappiness in life and states she never had a family there for her (her brother has never had this issue but obviously had a different life growing up). She was sent to boarding school when she was found to have hard liquor in her locker and was severely drunk in class. At one time she was drugging and stopped after detox. She was an adult and I did not trust her so I would not let her stay at my house (she had stolen from me in the past). Very hard boundary for me because she actually stayed in a homeless shelter... .I was hoping she would finally get serious about her sobriety. One of the hardest boundaries I ever had to have but I was supported by this in Al-anon (others had done this as well). So at this point she has decided I am the reason for her addiction, messed up life and having no family. She has been sending texts and e-mails that are filled with blame, hateful words (I cannot print them here), and threats. Over Memorial weekend she went to Facebook and posted a big dissertation on how terrible her parents were and how she has been excluded from the family her entire life. She had threatened to do this before and I discouraged her since I felt this is a personal family issue. I told her I would no longer pay her grad school tuition if she did this. Many of her "Friends" are people who know me and my ex from the past. It was very hurtful what she did. She did retract it after a week but only because she did not want to lose her tuition being paid. At this time I have been told by a therapist who deals with BPD to let her know that I will no longer respond to her abusive texts and will only respond if she agrees to meet together with her therapist to try to resolve her feelings. I e-mailed her this 2 weeks ago. I was forewarned by the therapist that her anger would escalate when I did this. It has and she continues to send never ending harassing texts and e-mails which I so far have not responded to because that is what I have been instructed to do. This has not been easy. It is similar to detaching with a loved one who is an alcoholic and waiting for them to hit "rock bottom" not knowing what the bottom is (even suicide). I know what we are doing (her mother is doing the same) is extremely bothersome to her since I have always responded in the past to try to reason with her. Now she is feeling that she is losing the control over me and does not like this (but either do!). I hope and pray that she will "break" in this prolonged rage and see it might be worthwhile to sit together in therapy. I have been told as well that I need to have acceptance that things may never change and that I will have "lost'" my relationship with my daughter for the future. BPD is a horrible mental state to live with. I have empathy with those who have it even knowing there is such unacceptable behavior. They say an alcoholic never wanted to be an alcoholic and I am sure it is that same way with BPD. But it also been shown to get better with alcoholism the individual has to want get better bad enough . People with BPD can get better but have to admit they have a problem and want help. She previously somewhat admitted to BPD tendencies but today she is in total denial (even though she is seeing a therapist who deals with BPD who I recommended). I want so bad to have a relationship with my daughter but I am now having to make hard choices which I never did before. I can only hope and pray she sees the light and wants to live her life differently.
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atmywitsendtoo

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« Reply #1 on: June 14, 2017, 03:58:19 AM »

Hi there,

You posted some of this before in response to one of my threads and I replied to you there so i hope I am not repeating myself.

First of all you are a superman of a father and you should never doubt that for a minute. I have a daughter who causes all kinds of drama and blames me for everything and has false memories about me doing evil things that i never did. The only difference between our daughters is that mine was never an addict and mine never got through college. Her intense moods always caused her to drop whatever she was pursuing sooner or later and she dropped out of three community colleges.

I feel for you. I really do. It is so tough to love my daughter because things may go well for a few hours one day but invariably she goes to a dark place and becomes enraged about something and takes it out on me. Even scarier is that my daughter is 6 months pregnant and she and her child's father are incapable of being civil to each other. They cannot even speak with one another without both becoming enraged. So, while things are rocky now they are going to get even rockier when the baby comes because she will be in a constant battle with the father and his family because they all want to be a part of the baby's life.  My daughter does not want this though. She wants them to either be the people she dreamed they were when she first met them, or she wants them to disappear off the face of the earth and leave her and her baby alone. There is no reasoning with her about this. I tell her she needs to get along with the father and his family for her child's sake and she blows up at me.

My daughter was off from the start. She displayed odd behavior even as a toddler and has always had trouble getting along with others and has been diagnosed with everything under the sun. Because this started so early with my daughter once I understood that I was not going to have the child I imagined I would have when I was pregnant with her (or even anything near my dream daughter) I went through a period of mourning the loss of the daughter I imagined I would have. It was  a prolonged and very painful period and I still experience it at times. At times she fools me into thinking that she is fine when she has a good day or two, and them bam all hell breaks lose again. Having this realization and mourning the loss has helped me distance myself a bit. You cannot for the sake of your own health let your daughter's moods, rage, acting out continue to batter you. You have to distance yourself and not engage when she is not being reasonable no matter what negative consequences it may have for your child. I struggle with this and sometimes I am good at it and other times I get sucked into her drama. I am working hard to keep her behavior from effecting me but it is going to be very hard when the baby comes. Where will my concern lie then? With my daughter who may turn out to be an abusive controlling mother or with innocent granddaughter who will probably have all the necessary DNA to grow up to be just like her mother? No up=side here that I can see.

I am in the process of knitting a baby blanket and grinning and bearing it for the time being.

Dialectic behavior therapy is supposed to be quite effective for BPD. Is your daughter receiving that type of therapy? Another perhaps painful question. How can your daughter be a counselor when she has so little insight into her own behavior or the behavior of others?

Wishing peace and healing for you.

all my best,

Atmywitsendtoo
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Lollypop
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« Reply #2 on: June 14, 2017, 09:41:33 AM »

Hi Jones54

First of all I want to welcome you to the forum. You've come to the right place. We all understand what it's like to have a child with BPD and quite often with other mental health and addiction issues. I'm very sorry to learn about the long term troubles you've had with your daughter and alcoholism.

Excerpt
I have been told as well that I need to have acceptance that things may never change and that I will have "lost'" my relationship with my daughter for the future. BPD is a horrible mental state to live with. I have empathy with those who have it even knowing there is such unacceptable behavior. They say an alcoholic never wanted to be an alcoholic and I am sure it is that same way with BPD. But it also been shown to get better with alcoholism the individual has to want get better bad enough .

I encourage you to read as much as you can about BPD. This will help you immensely to better understand why your daughter behaves the way she does. The more I learned the better I understood my own DS's limitations and some of the reasons for his addiction. This knowledge gave me not only power but it helped me to not react to his behaviours. It's been a journey of 18 months for me where I focussed on our core relationship rather than his addictions.

My DS simply cannot suddenly change all his behaviours or stop taking the drugs that he uses to ease his pain in one go. To change behaviours is incredibly difficult and it takes time and a lot of loving emotional support along the way. I've worked very hard on learning better communication and validation skills and have changed my own behaviours.

I've found a way to have a good relationship, despite the problems. Yes, my DS makes mistakes, makes bad choices but this is how he learns.  In fact, it is how we all learn.  

It's amazing that your daughter has achieved 18 months sobriety.  It is also incredible that she has a goal to be a counsellor. In my opinion, the best counsellors are the ones that have experienced what it's like to make big mistakes. They have natural empathy and know exactly what it's like to be on the other side of the table. It's wonderful that you've been able to financial support her in this goal. Progress isn't always linear. She's making great headway in her personal life and, at the same time, it sounds like she's unable to emotionally cope too well with you and your response to her. My DS felt a great weight of shame, low sense of self worth and he couldn't cope with my reactions or my judgment.

We all want the same thing in life: to be understood and loved.

Excerpt
People with BPD can get better but have to admit they have a problem and want help. She previously somewhat admitted to BPD tendencies but today she is in total denial (even though she is seeing a therapist who deals with BPD who I recommended). I want so bad to have a relationship with my daughter but I am now having to make hard choices which I never did before. I can only hope and pray she sees the light and wants to live her life differently.

Having a diagnosis of BPD is life changing and an incredibly scary prospect. My DS was dx at 24 and reeled, he was overwhelmed with a sense of complete hopelessness. It takes time to process. He resisted treatment. I got myself a simple plan (recognising that he has to be fully ready to engage with treatment for it to work, therefore I let this be). 18 months forwards, with gentle encouragement along the way when he faced life's challenges, he now seeks treatment and his dx has now changed to GAD, depression and BPD traits. Stability and a nurturing environment have provided him with the space to work things out himself.

You cannot change your daughter but you can change how you interact with her. I used to be too hard or too soft, very judgmental and found his "mistakes" very difficult to live with.  This forum has shown me that I could explore another way forward, not doing things for him that he needs to be doing himself and recognising that he's doing his very best.  

You've mentioned social media, is this how you normally communicate with your daughter or are you using text and telephone calls?

LP

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jones54
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« Reply #3 on: June 14, 2017, 04:16:30 PM »

Thanks so much for the replies and supportive words. Yes, her mother and I have questioned how she can counsel someone if she is in the state of mind that she is in (at least for now). She will not finish grad school for another 2 years. Hopefully with treatment she will get better. She wants to work with other addicts (which is quite common from the different rehab places I have been associated with when she was enrolled). It does bother me that she once said to her mother that she did not believe in boundaries. I suspect this is for her only since that would not make for a good counselor! In regard to social media, I am not on Facebook at all. I found out about the negative post thru a friend who is connected to her on Facebook. The only way she ever communicates with me is texting and also with e-mail. I probably can count on one hand the number of times she has actually pick up the phone and called me. Maybe a millennial thing. She has called me from the ER a few times after she overdosed. Sad.
I know I have to be strong and stick to my boundaries as recommended by the therapist to not respond to her unless she asks to see a therapist together. I get up every morning and turn my cell phone on waiting to see if there are a list of nasty texts aimed at me from her. She usually stays up all night and sleeps late into the morning. Her mother and I were to sit down with her about two months ago and let her know we wanted her to get a part time job to help with rent at her house. Her mother has been paying for it in 6 months blocks ahead. She has the time to work a bit. She did everything she could do to get out of meeting with us. I think she feels the two of us are just money trees. I discouraged her Mother from paying the rent ahead but she did it. I used to be the worst enabler with her addiction but now her mother has taken my place. At this point I have only paid for her Obamacare (feel she needs mental health treatment so happy to pay this). Have not supported her otherwise. Not sure how she gets food, gas and utilities. She must be doing some side jobs (she will work if she needs to eat).
I did order the book Buddha and the Borderline. Not sure if I should drop off in her mailbox. She probably would burn it. I told her one time it is nothing to be ashamed of.  I told her both Princess Di and Marilyn Monroe were BPD (which I never knew until I read this in a BPD book). I did not get any harassing texts or e-mails last night or today so far. I think she is giving me a short reprieve. Sounds terrible but when I do not hear from her for a long duration when she is raging,  I start fearing she committed suicide. I know that sounds sick but that is what I live with all the time.  People who know her always say she is too afraid of doing that but probably would die from an overdose (she should have died twice before... .the heroin pusher actually had Narcan and saved her). I as well always wish I had the daughter that other people have ( my son is the most wonderful person in the world and we are very close). But I know God gave her to me for a reason and I have always tried my best to do what is right. It sure get exhausting though.
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beady

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« Reply #4 on: June 14, 2017, 05:24:00 PM »

I have a 34 year old daughter that I believe has BPD. She was a difficult child to raise as she was forever pushing boundaries, as most children do, but to a greater degree. Then she spent time in out-patient mental health counselling when she was in grade 7 (about 13 years old) for Bullet: comment directed to __ (click to insert in post) 1 and 1/2 years, a the end of which I was no further enlightened as to why she taking part in high-risk behavior, cutting, trying to OD on aspirin and jumping out of her one and a half story bedroom window.
So, I spent the next 5 years waiting for the dreaded call that she had succeeded in committing suicide, which thankfully never came, but the toll that kind of stress takes on your own body and soul is akin to PTSD.
She has 1 university degree and 2 college diplomas, neither of which she has used to find employment. She's worked coffee shops and doing deliveries for a catering business. All jobs are short lived and she quits because she can't get along with her co-workers. She is currently selling used vintage clothing on-line to bring in a little money, but it's not enough to make ends meet. She has maxed out her credit card. I expect any time now to get a call from her asking for more money from my husband and I, even though we've paid her costs for her degrees. She's smart, beautiful, and oh, so sensitive. and there is the crux of the matter. She also blames us for her failure to succeed in the working world... .not supportive enough, invalidating, etc. I guess we were not the parents she needed. I have not seen her since Dec/2016, and my e-mails go unanswered ( she told me she only wants to communicate via e-mail, but I have since stopped as I'm afraid anything I say will be taken out of context and thrown back in my face at a later time. I'm afraid if my words are in black and white, she will ruminate on them.) She fails to recognize that there is anything wrong with her, it's everyone else that has the problem. I have a brother with Diagnosed BPD, and I believe my mother was as well. I have a schizophrenic son who is 31 yo that is currently at home with us, but he is the most gentle and grateful son you could ask for.
I don't have any answers for you, but like so many others here, I feel the pain and sadness that goes along with BPD. I've only recently shared with some of my family members the situation with her, as I got tired of making excuses as to why she was absent from so many family gatherings. My husband and I are going to see a therapist next week, so we can get some help on how to deal with, what I believe to be inevitable, just a matter of time before something major happens with her.
Despite all of the pain and worry she has put us through, I still love her madly, would do anything for her if I thought it would help. Next week can't come fast enough for me so I can talk to someone about how to go forward from here.
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Lollypop
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« Reply #5 on: June 15, 2017, 04:04:13 AM »

Hi Jones54

Excerpt
I get up every morning and turn my cell phone on waiting to see if there are a list of nasty texts aimed at me from her.

I'm sorry you're feeling this right now. It's feels horrible, wanting some contact but not liking the content when it arrives. I'm glad your seeing a therapist for some support.

Excerpt
I did order the book Buddha and the Borderline. Not sure if I should drop off in her mailbox.

 I used to do the same thing and I was still very much in my "fixing" mode. I learnt that this is wasted energy and every attempt I made to "fix" never ever worked. My pushing made my DS recoil.

All I could do was change myself. I learnt more effective communication skills and now I spend most of my time listening and using short statements. Validation, validation and then more validation!

You've said that your wife has taken your place as enabler. How's your daughter's relationship going with her?

LP
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jones54
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« Reply #6 on: June 15, 2017, 08:23:19 AM »

Beady,
Wow. Your daughter could be an identical twin to mine. Not sure but sounds like she did not have addiction issues like mine. She actually was similar as a child. Very difficult to get close to. Always seemed like a loner on the playground (which was heart crushing for me when I first saw it). She has been a cutter in the past and has had some inpatient mental health.  She is now complaining that her parents are the root of ALL her problems. Feels she has been abandoned by her family for the past 12 years. She states she is never included in the holidays (BPD's always have difficulties with holidays... .I myself no longer enjoy them because I get stressed by her during these times). She actually was in a mental hospital on  one Christmas and another in detox... .just 2 years ago. I encourage you to see a therapist. I have done this. Hopefully they are trained in understanding BPD. The one I saw also does DBT. My Daughter actually went thru DBT years ago but later she told me she was high most of the time so not sure what she learned. I am grateful she has never gotten pregnant (she has told me I should be happy with this... .but also recently states if I ever have a kid you will never see it). The best thing I ever heard from the therapist is that I have to have acceptance that there probably is nothing that I can do to change things (it is up to her... similar with addiction) and I may need to accept that she will not have a relationship with me in the future. I have always been a "fixer" and it is hard for me to step back but this is what I am learning to do. Someone said they are your kids till age 18 and after that they are God's kids to handle. Makes sense but very hard to let go.
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jones54
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« Reply #7 on: June 15, 2017, 09:42:30 AM »

Lollypop,
She has never had a good relationship with her mother. Even as a child it was odd when she did not want her mother to come to her grade school. I never understood this. Total opposite of her younger brother. Her mother had an affair 15 years ago and my daughter became very angry in her mid teens. All her addiction problems were worsening. She was sent to a boarding school not understanding the extent of her addiction. Was expelled from here and finally went to a Christian High School and finally graduated.Has been in and out of rehab soon after that. Today she somewhat has warmed to her mother but I only think for money. Her mother found the rental house for her and actually has been paying most of the rent. When my daughter rages at me in her texts and e-mails now she only says her mother is a "psychotic ___". I have a good relationship with her mother and we constantly communicate with each other about her. Her mother has pulled back at this point as well. I am sure my daughter feels "more abandoned" but this is what the therapist is saying to do. We have never done this before (always tried to connect with her in her rage but after the past 15 years this has never worked and she always falls back). I think my daughter is being very bothered by this because this is new to her. Something I never mentioned before is that a couple years ago she wrote down her life story (which is actually quite remarkable with multile schools, multiple rehabs, many times in jail,etc) as something to get published (she has a degree in English and is a gifted writer). It actually was looked at by a publisher who thought it was quite interesting but since the book ended with her having continued addiction issues he felt it had no redeeming value but otherwise was extremely well written. I have always told her if she stayed sober , became an addiction counselor, it maybe could get published. Unfortunately, now she talks and confabulates the past blaming her parents for everything (even now with threats to "tell the whole world in her book what terrible parents we were). I only hope and pray she continues with her therapist and gets treatment. Maybe she will improve.
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beady

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« Reply #8 on: June 15, 2017, 10:52:40 AM »

jones54

You are correct, my daughter does not have addiction issues, but otherwise, our children are very much alike. My daughter, as well, loved to write since she's been able to put pen to paper; mostly non-fiction, and I encouraged her to do so.
I've no idea what went on during her out-patient therapy sessions. There was never any feedback from them, but once when I approached her about them, many years later, she said she didn't want to talk about them. When I pressed her about a particular thing she'd told me, she said she had made it all up. So, she may have been feeling some guilt about the consequences of her story many years later.
I expect your advice to accept things as they are and move on will be what I will be advised to do as well. It hurts; hard not to feel like a failure. But as I get older I find I'm having to make a choice between living out my remaining years in the best way I'm able, or continue to immerse myself in a turbulent world that involves this back and forthing. 
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« Reply #9 on: July 11, 2017, 12:22:33 PM »

It has been almost a month since I have posted. After sitting down with a therapist I did 4 weeks of not responding to my daughter due to her constant negative rants towards me. I simply asked in the beginning of this time that I would communicate with her but only if she agreed to do family therapy. After 4 weeks of continued texts and e-mails by her that were most all negative she came to a breaking point because her second semester summer tuition was due (I had agreed in the past to pay her grad school tuition). Her mother also had stepped back. Well, she finally agreed to have a family therapy. We met last Thursday (her mother, my daughter and me). It actually went very well. I told her that there would be no second chances and that she needed to continue family therapy and there would be no negative comments. If this occurred the deal was off and she was on her own to get school loans. Her mother had been paying her rent (my daughter agreed to get a full time job in the session as well) and stated she will no longer help as well unless she holds up to what we agreed. It is less than a week and so far so good. My daughter always complained she was excluded from family gatherings (usually it was because she was in detox... .she seems to forget that) but last weekend she came to a gathering where she was with her brother, his wife and her two cousins who all visited from out of town. It went very well except the second day she seemed "high" to me. I even confronted her but she denied. No on else said anything to me so I am hopeful it was not true. Everything seems to have taken one small step forward. Unfortunately my girlfriend who has been with me for the last 15 years was in total disagreement that I pay her tuition since she agreed to family therapy. She wanted me to punish her and make her miss the second summer semester. It was my decision along with her mother to pay the tuition (the therapist also agreed) which it should be. Now my girlfriend is extremely mad at me (seems like I cannot win when it come to the females in my life). I will keep my fingers crossed and pray that my daughter stays the course.
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« Reply #10 on: July 12, 2017, 02:13:43 AM »

Hey Jones54

Thanks so much for the update. I've wondered how you've been getting on. Such positive news and congratulations on you and your ex wife holding out and staying firm. Your therapist sounds very good too.

Go you!

For what it's worth I would have paid the tuition fees too. Your fiancé maybe doesn't fully understand or is at a different stage than you. My H resisted my change in my approach and constantly criticised but I held steadfast with patience - it paid off in the end as he now sees the progress in our DS. I've been as patient with him as my DS. My H gets frustrated.

I've come to realise our progress is based on three things:
1. Responsibility given to DS
2. Better relationship with DS through communication and validation
3. Patience

Youre surrounded by tricky females. I'm surrounded by tricky men. SNAP!

How often are you all  seeing the therapist?

LP
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Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders
jones54
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« Reply #11 on: July 14, 2017, 12:06:51 PM »

Hi Lollypop,
Thanks for the reply and support. It has been a bit hard now when I feel I finally made a step forward with my daughter and then take two steps backward with my fiance. My fiance and I usually hang together on weekends but last night she said she did not to be with me and just be on her own. She is very upset that I paid the tuition and feels I am just doing more of the same with my daughter and enabling her. I truly have come to a breaking point with my daughter and have emphasized to her there will be a zero tolerance for negative comments and that she needs to find work to help with the rent her mother has been completely paying for her. This was discussed along with her therapist. Unfortunately, my fiance does not believe that I will stick to my guns. I think she feels I do not listen to what she thinks I should do and is bothered that I made this decision with my ex wife (who she does not like). Maybe it was the wrong decision but I do know if my daughter does not fulfill this agreement that I am out and she can get loans for school (which I have explicitly explained to her). I texted my daughter  yesterday asking when we can meet again with the therapist. She was going to ask her when they met yesterday but no new date has been set up for us. She sees the therapists weekly and I would like to meet at least every other week. I have also expressed to my fiance that a requirement as well with my daughter is that my fiance will be included in these sessions (I am hopeful my fiance will agree to participate). My fiance seems to be at her wits end with all of this. I am actually surprised she did not leave me years ago with all the dysfunction that my daughter has caused in our relationship. My daughter dislikes her for no reason and has made threatening remarks in the past about harming her (as well as me). I honestly do not think she would do anything (she said she would not in the last group session) but that does not stop the fear my fiance has of my daughter. If the roles were reversed and my fiance had a son with BPD who treated me this way I probably would have been long gone. I think my fiance is trying to make a statement to me how serious she feels. Maybe we could go our separate ways  but that is not what I want. I do know that BPD's can cause havoc in a family and relationships. I would never say this to my daughter but she was one factor in the breakup of my marriage. How sad.
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« Reply #12 on: July 15, 2017, 07:28:10 AM »

This thread illustrates a parent's love is amazing.  When I read it I wonder, why even try? But, I know what it feels like to love your child despite all that they have done and to still keep hoping for a relationship.
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« Reply #13 on: August 03, 2017, 04:28:14 PM »

Well, we had our first family therapy about 3 weeks ago. It was my daughter, her mother (ex wife) and the therapist. Everything was cordial. I was emphatic on multiple occasions with my daughter and the therapists if I received any negative comments toward me I would have zero tolerance and withhold paying her Fall tuition and she would need to get loans. We were supposed to have three more sessions since then and they have all been canceled! I am not sure why and am hopeful it is not my daughters doing. This is very frustrating. Well, after I laid down the law about no negative comments in our first session, my daughter on two separate occasions sent nasty texts to me. I feel that I need to stick to my guns. I was going to tell her tonight since she did not do what I asked and that she needs to get school loans. I actually did this when she was in undergrad when she dropped out of school when she relapsed with her drinking. I made her get loans and if she stayed sober I would pay them off. She did (hated to pay the interest on the loan but better than going back to the school (twice!) and asking for a refund... .they did due to addiction). I do not know what else to do at this point. I want so  badly for her to change her attitude. I want my fiancee to come to the sessions. Things were going better with my fiancee but after these negative comments she is pulling back again because I have not stuck to my word. Since we cannot meet with her therapists I e-mailed my daughter and said she needed to apply for loans. I am still willing to meet with the therapists in hopes of making things better but I realize my daughter may write me off. So be it, I just cannot keep living this way. I cannot allow her to keep doing what she is doing without consequences.   
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« Reply #14 on: August 04, 2017, 03:37:34 PM »

Hi jones54

This is a hard place to be in and I hope you do have the strength to do whatever you truly feel is right for yourself and your daughter.

I don't know if anyone else sees warning signs in your fiance attempting to emotionally manipulate you into choosing not to pay your daughter's tuition?  That would be something of a red flag for me.  If you choose to pay it, or not pay it, that is your choice based on a deep and long term relationship with your daughter, no? 

I think DBT talks about having this sort of both things, like you might feel yes, I want to support you in school, but no, I will not tolerate being spoken to that way and so I am going to do X where X might be to not pay at all, to reduce payments, or not to have communication, or whatever you choose based on all the factors.  If you are not sticking with a threat to terminate payment maybe you have a reason for it, like that you deeply want your daughter to complete school?   Or maybe you really do want to stop paying her tuition and you feel manipulated by your daughter, and you want to stop paying.   But it seems to me your fiance isn't understanding that this is more than just giving in, its handling very difficult and important relationship.

Has your fiance read about BPD and learned any skills?   Is she genuinely interested in co-parenting your adult daughter, and wants to do it in a more realistic and strong way?  Or is she just hoping she is out of the picture?

Sorry, I think I am pushing in too much here, I apologize for being presumptuous.  Good luck with this tricky situation and trust your own instincts!
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« Reply #15 on: August 10, 2017, 01:36:07 PM »

Hi incadove,
I put down a reply but not sure what happened. I appreciate what you wrote. I have been totally frustrated with the situation. I agreed to pay for her summer tuition if we had family therapy. Since then we have met together one time and my daughter has canceled on 3 other occasions (she blamed the cancellations on the therapist but found out it was my daughter). She tries to control. When she can't control she gets upset. We are to meet tonight for the second time. I have since told her she needs to get loans for her Fall semester. She resists (after she has gotten mad recently, she wrote me off and said she wanted nothing more to do with me and SHE was getting loans... .she never does). I told her zero tolerance for negative comments at our first session and she continues. I get why my fiancee says I need to put my foot down. I think she is more frustrated with my actions of enabling than anything. My daughter keeps manipulating me and her mother. As my fiancee says "your daughter will not change until you change". I honestly have had enough of how she acts. I do not trust her. I want so badly for things to be better. I know nothing will be perfect but things are not going in the right direction. My fiancee used to have a good relationship with my daughter (years ago when her mother walked out on us). She actually stepped in as a mother figure and did many things with and for my daughter. But this changed years ago and my fiancee said she was stepping back and would not have anything to do with her. She has had this boundary for years and all the while my daughter has said many negative things about her (she really never did anything wrong). I know and read other posts that BPD's have these different perspectives of the past which are not factual. My daughter always seem to place blame on everyone else for her problems in the past. It is unfortunate that she cannot look in the mirror and accept responsibility for her past actions to see why things are the way they are today. Trust me, I have made mistakes and accept them. I move on but my daughter lives in the past and feels she has been neglected by her family. Very difficult when I as a father want more than anything to have together the ones I love but my daughter has decided not to be there at holidays. This is because she blames me.
 I plan to keep up hope (that is all any of us can do) and stay in family therapy,we have a second session tonight (if my daughter does not cancel the sessions and back out). As they say "the only person you can control in your life is yourself". I know this is going to be a long road. Having lived the way she has for so many years simply means things do not change overnight. 
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« Reply #16 on: August 16, 2017, 02:40:53 PM »

Well, we did meet last week with the therapist. I was straight forward with my daughter as to how I insisted on zero tolerance  and she did not comply. I was upset with her and made my feelings know. She became very upset, cried and actually said she wanted nothing more to do with me. She finally settled down. The Therapist felt we should see someone other than her since she works with my daughter. My daughter agreed.
The next day I asked my daughter to spend some time together. She did actually for the next day as well as the following. It went unbelievably well (almost like "why do we even need family therapy?". I know that can change in a moments notice so I plan to still move ahead with family therapy. Unfortunately, My fiancee is still mad at me and is pulling back. She hates that I talk with my ex about all this but I have to. I think she mostly thinks I will never do what she (my fiancee) feels I need to do. I wish she could just let go and let me handle this the way I feel best. There is a wedding out of State in a week that I was hopeful all 3 of us would be able to go together ( I bought plane tickets back in the Spring in hopes she, My daughter and I would all go together).  My fiancee told me last week she has no interest in going regardless. I wasted my money on that one. I think my daughter wants to go (she should... .she is family). I hope she will act good. This gets so frustrating. TOO MUCH DRAMA for me!  I have been with my fiancee for 15 years. We have been engaged for almost 12 years. She has never been able to move ahead (I never had the cold feet). Always blamed on my daughter which I understand but she has NEVER been married before so there is more to the story than my BPD daughter. I am a patient guy (maybe stupid) but I just keep hanging in there. I keep hoping things will get better but seems like this craziness never ends. I just want everyone to get along but that is "Pie in the sky".  I am hopeful at this point my fiancee will eventually come to a therapy session. At this point she is giving me the cold shoulder with most everything (trying to back out of dinner get together with people I know... .but they know her too). Sorry, this seems more about my fiancee but it does all come back to my BPD daughter. What a drag.
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« Reply #17 on: August 17, 2017, 04:50:28 PM »

jones54 very glad to hear things are on an upswing with your daughter.  It sounds like with the therapists support she responded well to the boundaries you set. 

I like the DBT philosophy of radical acceptance + work for change - what you want isn't 'pie in the sky' but its just not current reality, you might not get it but you might get closer to it!  Good luck!
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« Reply #18 on: September 13, 2017, 10:11:36 AM »

It has been quite  a while since I posted. Sorry about that. I am glad to say things are looking up. My daughter, her mother and I have met three times with a therapists. The therapists is excellent which I am grateful for. I put my foot down just before her grad school started and told her she needed to get loans. I said this is necessary for her to be responsible for herself. If she continues with family therapy and gets a part time job to help with rent I will consider paying off her loan. She finally seems to get that I am serious. My relationship with my fiancée is now better as well. I asked the therapist if my fiancée can eventually come to the sessions. She said yes but it would need to be everybody including my ex wife. Makes sense I guess but I would rather see fireworks at 4th of July only. I think we all will survive. I think as it has been said, radical acceptance is very important. We all have expectations for the ideal but need to realize it is the small steps and gains we need to appreciate. I am grateful where things are right now but understand this is going to take a long time.
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« Reply #19 on: September 15, 2017, 11:46:09 AM »

Well, as they say things can change in a moments notice. We met with the therapists last night and my daughter was not in a good mood. She immediately brought up she no longer wanted to do any more family therapy. She felt she was being "targeted" in these sessions. I understand her feeling this way but there have been times I felt I was being targeted in a session based on my prior divorce. I think this is part of what happens in therapy and we all need to accept this to try to move ahead. My daughter finally agreed to stay with treatment. Then at the end her mother stated she could not make next weeks session because her niece was visiting from out of town. That session was cancelled and we would meet in 2 weeks. Well, later that night my daughter went into a rage first against her mother and then against me. This was with hateful texts all till about 4 am. She stated she was done with us and these sessions. She felt her mother was choosing her niece over her. A "normal" person would have accepted her mother meeting with someone who was from out of town but as with most BPD's she again felt she was being abandoned. What is worse, in her raging texts she said she has not been clean over the past year and has been drinking as well as using heroin.  I suspected she was drinking once before earlier this summer but as most parents do, was hopeful it was not true. I am surprised she has not crashed and burned with the drinking and drugs because that is usually what happens. I do not know to what extent she has been using but it does not matter because these are the choices she is going to make and suffer the consequences. Same story just another repeat performance. As they say, do not get your expectations up too high because you will only get disappointed.
Her mother has now agreed to cancel being with her niece in hopes that we can all meet again next Thursday. She will try to communicate this with our daughter. It is a shame that one has to do things this way but I guess that is what you need to do when someone is ill (mentally). I empathize with what my daughter lives with. I think she lives in this "black hole" and does not have many friends. She is very unhappy. She has the impression that her parents could care less about her not understanding unconditional love. She lives in the past and unfortunately never looks in the mirror as to why she is where she is now. She blames everyone else and has minimal gratitude. Don't get me wrong, I do think that she is thankful, but that overpowering feeling she was treated differently all her life and she had nothing to do with anything takes first place in her head. As they say, when addicts feel they are the victims, they do not get better. I hope and pray that she will get back on the sobriety wagon and come back to therapy. Otherwise I will feel as hopeless as she seems to feel right now.
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« Reply #20 on: September 15, 2017, 01:17:36 PM »

Oh wow - jones54 so sorry to hear it!

This whole thing must be so hard to deal with, but the one thing that sticks out to me most in this thread is the safety issue.  I was on a panel a while back with a mom who's son died of a heroin overdose.  does she realize how dangerous this is?

There is a kind of packet with Naxalone to have handy for overdoses, do she and her friends have access to this?  It could be lifesaving in an emergency.  Maybe focusing on this danger and the need to have it handy to possibly save her life would convince her you are serious about the danger to her and that you care about her in a fundamental way. 

It may be she may need to deal with her addiction before she can handle family therapy, do you think this might be the case?  Are there addiction rehab resources available to her?  I'm not familiar with what is most effective outside of inpatient therapy, I would really want to hear what you mind find out in your area, that people have found works.

It takes so much strength to keep going through crisis after crisis, please take care of yourself and do what you need to reenergize! 
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« Reply #21 on: September 20, 2017, 03:55:07 PM »

Now she states she was exaggerating and only has drank a few times and did not do heroin. Not sure what to believe anymore. She actually OD'd once in the past and would have died but the drug pusher gave her Narcan and she lived.
She just e-mailed me and said she will no longer do therapy with her mother and I. Said she was dropping out of Grad school. Plans to move away to the south (Florida?). She is totally frustrated and feels we abandoned her for the past 15 years. I am not sure how she will think any different unless we all stay in therapy. This is the worst I have ever seen her with all her anger towards her parents. I am not sure what else we can do. I emailed her back and said this is not a good idea (she has absolutely no money that I know of and if she does it is not much). Not sure how far she will get if she does this. Maybe it is all just a "cry for help" or being dramatic. We have the next session tomorrow night. I told her she agreed to do these sessions so the least she can do is show up once more. If she still wants to leave after this,well, she is 32 years old and I cannot stop her. I hope she comes to her senses.
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« Reply #22 on: September 20, 2017, 04:22:25 PM »

Hi jones54

Sounds like a possible tipping point, and that you're doing all you can to respond rationally and supportively, in spite of the abusive stream of messages.

From what I have experienced with another acquaintance, I think that it is entirely possible that she could really cut contact and disappear for some years, even without resources, though hopefully this is not the case.  So I think you're doing the right thing to insist on the last therapy session, and to try to reach out as makes sense.

Maybe, you could offer to her to have separate therapy in pairs, so she will not feel ganged up on?  I would make as reasonable an offer as you can, and a clear and small request, such as if she chooses to move away to please remain in contact so you know she is all right.  Since she is 32, it does make sense to give her some choices as to how to remain in contact and how much, whatever you are willing to agree to.  Has it helped any (maybe just helped you!) to not respond to her negative rages?
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« Reply #23 on: September 21, 2017, 03:12:23 PM »

I am not sure what she will do in regards to moving away. She states she has no friends or "family" here so no reason to stay. She used to have more connections thru AA but I am not sure how often she is going. I ignored and did not respond to her abusive texts and e-mails in the Spring. She got upset that I did not respond and eventually it came to a head when her summer tuition was due. I agreed to pay if we all did family therapy. She succumbed but after 3 sessions we have gone nowhere. She can only focus on the past as to how I treated her terribly, did not support her and shut her out ( felt abandoned like most BPD's feel). She continues to focus on that she did nothing wrong (her drinking and drugging as well as how she abused us emotionally back then). It is all my fault (she states her mother is just "crazy". My ex-wife admitted the other night that the primary reason or marriage broke up was because of my daughter and the stress that it caused (it was part my fault because I did not support my wife at the time and she sought out someone else and had an affair... .I can admit my mistakes). We both have apologized to each other years ago and moved on. Unfortunately, my daughter does not have or want to forgive me even though she denies any significant wrong doing on her part. I see no hope at this point. I am honestly tired of all this chaos in my life with her. I love her dearly but this is not right to be constantly verbally abused. She is mentally ill and I get that but if she has no interest in making an attempt to even meet us halfway to do family therapy then there is nothing else I can do. As a therapists once told me (as have others here) you need to have acceptance that there may be nothing you can do. The therapists said if she lets me go then you simply need to grieve and move on.
I will still go tonight to the family therapy even though my daughter now refuses to go. I am hoping the therapists will still meet with my ex-wife and me. I need to hear what she recommends at this point but suspect I already know... .you need to just let go.
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« Reply #24 on: September 21, 2017, 06:06:38 PM »

Sounds like you have peace and know what you want to do, jones54.  If she wants to repair the relationship with you it sounds like it would be up to her to do the hard work to do that, not up to you.  Best wishes for your continued journey. 
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« Reply #25 on: September 22, 2017, 12:28:20 PM »

Incadove,
I very much appreciate your support. As you and everyone else know being in a situation like this is no fun. Her mother and I met with the therapists without my daughter who did not show as expected. The therapists more or less said we need to cut all financial support to her. Not to give her any money in any form. We can still be there emotionally if she treats us with respect. She has written out 9 rules that we are to give to Katie (she was going to discuss these with my daughter if she came). The therapists said that nothing will get better until she gets sober again. I am not sure how much she is doing with alcohol or drugs but it does not seem any different in the past when she relapses. Her rage and anger just intensify. The therapist said we need to step back at this point. If our daughter wants to do the right things, we can step back in. Her lease is up in about a month at most. Her mother has told her with these new rules that she will no longer pay rent. She will now be evicted. At this point she will either sell all her things and try to drive to Florida, move out and get a job and live someplace else smaller (she has no credit so not sure if anyone would allow her to sign a lease) or crash and burn. I have accepted that she may die but as the therapist has said, there is nothing you can do about this. She is the one who has to want things better (get sober and take care of herself). She is now 32 years old. Her mother and I never thought she would make it to age 25. I hope and pray there will be a change for the better. She has been homeless before. I feel like she is going full circle, back to where she was years ago if she stays on the same course.
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« Reply #26 on: September 24, 2017, 07:26:33 PM »

Hi jones54

It's certainly no fun as you say. My DD is 29, she's in recovery, managing her disorder, doing her best, she lives at home. How did she get here, she crashed and burned, I feared I'd lose her, unwittingly I let her go, I stood back, I've yet to work that through for me. Life is very different now, its calm, she's growing, working towards a life that works for her. I hope sharing helps you and your DD.

Our situations are unique, only we know best, when it's time to let go to help them back.

We are here for you.

WDx  
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« Reply #27 on: September 25, 2017, 10:12:16 AM »

Wendydarling,
Thanks so much. For some reason I am really struggling right now. I know what I need to do but it is so hard for me to step back. Funny thing is I have done this before but that was when she had a stable roof over her head. This is to change soon. I know, she needs to be responsible for herself and the therapist has said she needs to "hit bottom". I know all these things but I am a person who worries a lot ( I think I inherited this from my father). My fiancée says she feels that in no way she will pack up and drive 1500 miles south to Florida. She has no money, no one that she knows in Florida and no destination or plan that I know of. She has an older gentlemen friend who she had a relationship with in the past here and are now just friends. He is an alcoholic as well who recently relapsed. Not sure if she would move in with him. I guess it does not matter.
You mentioned that your daughter moved back in with you after she turned the corner. My daughter has not lived with me for years and I have always had a boundary due to her drug use. My fiancée (who does not live with me but has some ownership in the house I live in) would never allow this due to my daughter's hatred for her and the trust issue. Not sure how you managed that. The therapist more or less has told me to cut her off. I will do this but she needs to make it on her own. Unfortunately I get this sinking feeling she is not going to make it. My nature is to rescue. I have not done much at all for her for quite awhile. She was in grad school, she had a roof over her head and seemed to be going in the right direction. Then I think her borderline emotions got to her and she started in with her hateful thinking. Next thing she is drinking and drugging again due to her painful emotions. Her mother and I had only asked that she get a part time job while she was in school. She resisted and never did ( this started 6 months ago when we first wanted to discuss this... .she avoided us to talk about it). There is the side of me that gets angry and so frustrated with this whole situation wanting to totally let go. But there is this other side that always wants to go sit down and talk with her to try to make her think clearly. But deep down I know I have tried the latter too many times and know she is the one who has to decide she wants things different. I just do not know if she does and that is what pains me.
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« Reply #28 on: September 29, 2017, 12:46:27 PM »

Well, I met with the therapist alone last night (my ex had a meeting). I had lots of questions because I was struggling with what to do. In essence she simply said do nothing. That is not my nature because I worry and want to "rescue". I have done it this way for years. I wanted to send an email to my daughter to give her my feelings and wants for her to consider going into detox since she is using again. The therapist said no, I cannot do that. I asked about doing an intervention because that is what we did before. She again said no, that did not work before so you need to do something different. She simply stated she has to "hit rock bottom" and finally decide she wants things different. I asked is there not some leeway because she has a mental illness? She said that is no excuse because if she wanted to get better with that issue, she can ask for help as well. This is not easy sitting back waiting and hoping she comes around and finally helps herself. My fiancee saw her driving to a rough area of town, stopped at a gas station to more than likely buy heroin. My fiancee followed her and eventually pulled up next to her where she was waiting to meet the drug pusher. My DD saw her and speed away frightened (glad that scared her). My DD has since texted me and wants to see the same therapist as an individual. I have been told she is only doing this to manipulate my emotions since she knows I want this more than anything. I would hope she would call and make an appointment but I won't hold my breath on this. Sad to say the only thing I am holding on to right now is that she does not accidentally die from a heroin overdose. I have discussed this with my therapist and she says anything is possible but feels my DD is afraid to die (I do know this for a fact since I saw this in her writings once). But accidents can happen. I simply have to put my faith in God that He will protect her. I just wish she would break down and do something to help herself. Have never pulled this far back with support but I do not see any other alternative. Hopefully others will Pray for her as well.
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« Reply #29 on: September 29, 2017, 01:40:08 PM »

Hello Jones54

Sounds like you have found a great therapist.  I couldn't agree more with what she has said to you. 

It is not easy to change but if what you have been doing hasn't worked (and it hasn't)... .you have to do something different... .and you are in the process of doing just that.  Any change is going to get your daughter's attention and that is a good thing.

Hang in there, Jones54.  I wish you sunnier days!



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