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Author Topic: Dealing with the BPD "helpless victim"  (Read 1179 times)
BeagleGirl
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« on: June 14, 2017, 06:25:28 PM »

Today was my first meeting with a mediator and BPDh.  I am moving forward with legal separation and BPDh has agreed to do it through mediation.  In our state the only difference between a legal separation and divorce, as far as procedure goes, is that the box that says "Marriage is irretrievably broken" doesn't get checked.  I've been asked by a lawyer I consulted, employee assistance coordinator, friends, and now mediator why I don't just file for divorce since we're going through all the work required to do so anyways.  Trust me, I ask myself the same question over and over.  But that's a topic for another day.

Today I'm processing BPDh's words and behaviors in the mediation session.  He's an able bodied, skilled, 42 year old man but can't seem to take responsibility for making basic decisions, much less supporting himself post separation.  I'm not even talking about TOTALLY supporting himself.  Part of the reason I'm seeking legal separation rather than divorce is so that he still has access to my medical insurance and I have offered not only to pay all expenses for our children (except the food he feeds them when they are staying with him), but to also pitch in $450/month for his DBT.  The choices he does make (like the choice of house he's going to rent) have serious flaws that he wants to then "work together" to resolve.  I refused the "bait" fairly well today, but I'm really struggling with the urge to step in and sort things out for him so that I can get this process over with and start to move on.  But that's what I've always done, and I never really get to "move on".  There's always some other crisis that he manages to get himself ("us" into that needs sorting.  And even our therapist has pointed out that when it looks like I might make him face some consequences he invokes S14's welfare.  "I just don't know how I'm going to support myself and S14 on what I make".  Incidentally, when he was complaining to her about not knowing how he can support himself and S14 on what he makes, she asked what he earns.  Just so happens that she and her husband supported a family of 4 on that amount while she was in grad school.

What he doesn't seem to realize is that this separation process is the ideal opportunity for him to demonstrate to me that he is willing to be a husband.  At minimum, taking responsibility for his own physical needs (housing, food, etc) without needing me to spell everything out for him would be a step in the right direction. 

Our therapist told him very clearly that if he wanted to demonstrate to me that he is ready to be a husband he would honor my request for the separation and not ask me for a dime of support; that he would take this opportunity to show that he can not only be self sufficient, but that he can start to take care of me rather than expecting me to care for his needs. 

Well, that's not what he's offering up so far.  Instead he's not even willing to figure up how much money he would need from me to live.  He just gives vague estimates of what he anticipates earning (he's self employed, but not hurting for work opportunities) and vague estimates of what he needs and lots of FOG.

Enough whining about BPDh.  My point of posting this (besides venting) is to ask if anyone has tools/tips on dealing with the victim/helpless mentality.  I'm trying to recognize FOG when it's present and not trample my own boundaries in a rush to "rescue" him.  Anything else?
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« Reply #1 on: June 14, 2017, 09:44:07 PM »


What does your T say to you about rescuing your husband?

Why continue?

FF
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« Reply #2 on: June 20, 2017, 12:04:46 PM »

Can you call his bluff regarding the threat to have consequences fall to S14?

BTW, how is S14 dealing with the split? Is he taking sides in any way? Does he trust you? Does he realize his dad has "issues" if not mental illness?

If S14 is aware of his dad's issues and trust you, you can do things tell S14 to call you if he is at his dad's place and is going hungry because his dad can't afford food... .and you can find a way to make sure he gets fed.
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BeagleGirl
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« Reply #3 on: June 21, 2017, 02:00:49 AM »

What does your T say to you about rescuing your husband?

Why continue?

FF

Ding Ding Ding.  FF wins a prize for accurately predicting the question my T asked during our session.  "Why are you doing it?"

She first made the statement "You are over-functioning (rescuing) to such an extent that you are over-functioning in the future in scenarios that may never happen."  That one comment got me laughing at myself and is sticking with me.  Knowing what I'm doing and changing what I'm doing are two different things, but at least now I'm recognizing it a bit sooner.  I'm also getting a bit closer to understanding why I'm doing it.

My first response was "Because if I don't then what he tells me and other people about me is true.  I'm cruel and unloving and causing him and our sons to suffer."  So I'm thinking I still have some work to do on "deFOGing".

Example of a "mild" rescue and his perception of it: 
During our mediation session he brought up that the $450/mo in medical spending account money I'm offering is not enough to cover his therapy and "I don't even know how much my antidepressant is going to cost because the doctor has me on samples".  (Incidentally, T thinks that BPDh's major depressive disorder diagnosis is a misdiagnosis and is actually situational depression brought on by the separation.  She also tends to agree with my questioning the need to shift to one of the most expensive name brand antidepressants so quickly is valid, but neither of us is a psychiatrist, so... .). 

BG expresses (and mediator agrees) that a reasonable estimate of the cost of the drug will be needed by the next mediation appointment where budgets/expenses will be discussed.

The following day, problem-solving BG starts thinking "I bet I could figure out how much that medication costs pretty quickly.  I bet I could even do it without actually calling a doctor or the pharmacy.  Those options are just too easy."  It took BG 10 minutes to log into the website for our prescription plan (would have been quicker, but since this was my first time logging in, I had to create the user ID and security questions and I was on my iPhone, not my computer) and find the max cost for 30 day supply or 90 day mail order supply.  Since this is in the highest cost brand name category the price has a little asterisk next to it indicating that prescription plan discount will only be applied to this with proper step treatment and approval.

Rescue resistant BG thinks "He has the prescription card with the same information.  He also has the phone number of his doctor and the pharmacy where the prescription would be filled.  I will give him the opportunity to problem solve this one and come with the information to our mediation appointment next week."  She then busies herself figuring out exactly how many doses it would take at max price before the annual deductible would be met and all sorts of other "fun with numbers" activities.

Rescue prone BG starts thinking "If he tries to log in, he won't have the user ID and password I created." and emails that information to him.  Rescue resistant BG erased the part about "In case you want to look up the cost of your antidepressant and just presents it as "In case you need it, here's the log in info for this site".

Flash forward to meeting with BPDh today where BG (among a myriad of topics) expresses disappointment that BPDh is not putting forth what she considers reasonable effort to provide estimates of his expenses and uses the antidepressant as an example.  When BPDh fires back "How am I supposed to know how much it will cost?"  BG explains the options she came up with for getting that information, the fact that she was able to do so via the website listed on the prescription plan card, and that she even emailed him the log in info for the site (I would consider this a "mild" rescue). 

BPDh response: "If you had the information, why didn't you just tell me what it costs.  Emailing me the log in information, especially without telling me why I needed it was incredibly passive-aggressive."

BG tried to explain (JADE?) that she is aware that both T and pastor have been encouraging BPDh to find ways to demonstrate self-reliance if not acts of care for BG and that she saw this as an opportunity for BPDh to follow that advice. 

BPDh (to the best of my knowledge) still believes that this was a passive aggressive move on my part.  I am pretty sure T will point it out as "over-functioning" to have sent him the log in information.  So I am feeling like I over-functioned and still ended up the "bad guy" in BPDh's eyes because I didn't over-function to the degree to which he has become accustomed.  And now that I think about it, that pretty much sums up all of the other topics discussed during the 2 hour meeting.

The one victory - during the discussion I expressed my disappointment that BPDh was relying on me to figure out how to handle the consequence of his choice to rent a house that wouldn't allow our dogs.  I told him that I would like him to consider the repercussions of the one option he did offer up (S14 will come over and take care of them on a daily basis).  I did end up over-functioning here as well, because I didn't wait long for him to come up with them and ended up listing them out for him.  But I didn't share the entire page of over-functioning options I came up with over the weekend and then quietly tucked away after T's comment about the degree of my over-functioning Smiling (click to insert in post)

I told BPDh that I will have S18 stay at the house with the dogs when I travel until he goes back to college, so there is still time for BPDh to find housing that would allow dogs... .30 minutes after discussion ended, BPDh texted that he contacted the church member he's renting the house from and they are now agreeing to let him have the dogs there.  Amazing how that only became an option when he bothered to care more about inconveniencing me than inconveniencing his new landlord.
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BeagleGirl
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« Reply #4 on: June 21, 2017, 02:27:21 AM »

Can you call his bluff regarding the threat to have consequences fall to S14?

BTW, how is S14 dealing with the split? Is he taking sides in any way? Does he trust you? Does he realize his dad has "issues" if not mental illness?

If S14 is aware of his dad's issues and trust you, you can do things tell S14 to call you if he is at his dad's place and is going hungry because his dad can't afford food... .and you can find a way to make sure he gets fed.

I've made it clear that I will provide more than sufficient child support, so BPDh has shifted to the emotional damage I am doing to S14. 

S14 tried out a 4 day silent treatment the weekend before last.  I posted about it somewhere else, but will try to put the link in here later.  I'm still not 100% sure how much of this is reaction to the split and how much is "14".  The reason S14 gave for the silent treatment was anger at a parenting rule I had enforced (S14 had to do something productive every day if he preferred to stay home rather than go with my parents to visit my brother) rather than the split.  While I have a hard time believing something that small would trigger that drastic a ST and have plenty of guilt telling me that "I did this to him", I have a number of friends who are now charged with reminding me that "14 sucks, even without a split".  A few of them even have the audacity to remind me that I was the one telling them that "it will get better" when their "14s" were making life miserable.

T thinks that BPDh is influencing S14's mood and behavior by example.  I explained how I handled the ST and she congratulated me on doing the right things and is hopeful that S14 will learn what behaviors are and are not effective ways of dealing with his feelings if I keep modelling and enforcing. She's also warned me that sometimes children side with the parent they feel "needs" them or they are less secure in relationship with rather than the parent they feel is healthier or "right". 
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« Reply #5 on: June 21, 2017, 08:21:16 AM »

Any divorce affects a teen, but also consider that teens are emotional and act out as well.

I once said no to my teen over something expensive. "But all my friends's mothers said yes"

Well, I am not their mothers.

I think I got 3 days of ST over that.

I sometimes think if you haven't heard " I hate you" at least once from a teen, you might not be saying no to requests.

But one thing to keep in mind is that they do grow up!
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« Reply #6 on: June 21, 2017, 11:01:03 AM »

Hey BG, will give a more thoughtful response later, but I just wanted to ask something because it's something I'm dealing with... .

On your prescription website, is there an option for each person on the plan to have their own login? You might want to check on that, for this and other accounts as well (medical, etc)

I've been so used to just sharing account info, it didn't occur to me that each person could have their own log in. Lots of reasons to consider it. Just thought I'd mention it in case you found it useful.
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« Reply #7 on: June 22, 2017, 04:57:19 PM »

Yeah, you have an old pattern of "overfunctioning" and he has an old pattern of blaming you for not reading his mind well enough to "overfunction" the way he wanted you to   

The less of this you can do, the better. Even when it is hard to stop yourself!
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« Reply #8 on: June 23, 2017, 07:14:30 AM »

Is there a way to structure your "child support" to be paid directly to kids or products bought by you and handed directly to kids?

The goal is to get him to "step up"... .that is not going to happen when he doesn't need to.  If you want him to be a provider... .stop providing... .let natural consequences happen.

I am a bit of an over functioner myself.  Mine seemed to be focused on my wife.  I was fine with pushing kids to be independent.

I am an "acts" of service guy... so I was "telling" my wife I loved her.  She wasn't hearing it that way.

So... .I do get the anxiety of letting them do it on their own... .what can you focus on when you want to figure it out?

Tell me again what your hubby does for work?


FF
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« Reply #9 on: June 23, 2017, 08:36:59 AM »

I've been asked by a lawyer I consulted, employee assistance coordinator, friends, and now mediator why I don't just file for divorce... .

Today I'm processing BPDh's words and behaviors in the mediation session.  He's an able bodied, skilled, 42 year old man but can't seem to take responsibility for making basic decisions, much less supporting himself post separation. I'm not even talking about TOTALLY supporting himself.  Part of the reason I'm seeking legal separation rather than divorce is so that he still has access to my medical insurance and I have offered not only to pay all expenses for our children (except the food he feeds them when they are staying with him), but to also pitch in $450/month for his DBT.

I'm going to speak very plainly here: you are as much of the problem as he is. You are operating as though he is a dependent child rather than a full grown man; what is the payoff for you in this? Your "parentified" role is not healthy for either of you - nor for your children.

Excerpt
What he doesn't seem to realize is that this separation process is the ideal opportunity for him to demonstrate to me that he is willing to be a husband. At minimum, taking responsibility for his own physical needs (housing, food, etc) without needing me to spell everything out for him would be a step in the right direction.

What you don't seem to realize is that he has no need (nor "drive" to do this while you are still playing "mommy."


Excerpt
Enough whining about BPDh.  My point of posting this (besides venting) is to ask if anyone has tools/tips on dealing with the victim/helpless mentality.  I'm trying to recognize FOG when it's present and not trample my own boundaries in a rush to "rescue" him.  Anything else?

Yes - focus your time/money/energy on your dependent CHILDREN. Allow your husband to stand or fall of his own accord. Perhaps he will stop acting like a child when you stop treating him like one. Or perhaps he won't - but it's for him to figure out.

Excerpt
I'm really struggling with the urge to step in and sort things out for him so that I can get this process over with and start to move on.  But that's what I've always done, and I never really get to "move on".  

Indeed. Time to try something different?

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« Reply #10 on: June 23, 2017, 09:42:38 AM »

Or perhaps he won't - but it's for him to figure out.
 

This is likely where fear comes in. 

He will likely choose "won't" for a while... .because he is likely expecting a rescue.  Who knows how long that will take for him to figure out rescue is not coming.

BeagleGirl,

Has there EVER been a point in his life when he was self-sufficient?   

If not... has he ever gotten close?

FF
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BeagleGirl
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« Reply #11 on: June 23, 2017, 10:26:21 AM »

FF,
Short answer - No.  We met when I was 14 and he was 15.  While he worked 2-3 jobs through high school (what established in my dad's mind that he never had to worry about his daughter going hungry because BPDh would be a good provider) I look back and realize that he worked to fund his car obsession, but as soon as I started working "our" money went to that obsession as well.  It was on me to make sure bills got paid.

We both worked and put ourselves through college with no financial help from either set of parents.  In fact, we were sending money to his parents periodically.  Through college, I made more per hour but tended to work fewer hours.  S18 was born 4 months after I graduated.  I went to work full time 6 weeks later and earned more than BPDh at that point.  I then decided I wanted to try being a stay at home mom.  When S18 was an infant/toddler, BPDh's job was salaried (the salary worked out to be about $1.00/hr over minumum wage working 40hrs/week) where he would regularly work 60 hours a week because he was unwilling to say "no".  We were going into debt so I would convince him that he should quit that job so he could go to a higher paying job or at least two hourly jobs where he could get paid for all the hours he was working.  He literally went in and quit 5 times over the course of the year and allowed the manager to talk him into staying 4 of those 5 times.  There was no negotiation.  No higher salary or reduced hours.
"I want to quit"
"I'd be sad to see you go.  Would you consider staying?"
"Sure."

After the third attempt to quite I traded the 4 part time jobs I was juggling so that I could be home with S18 (age 1-2 at the time) and went back to work full time.  That's the moment that T takes BPDh back to as the point at which he effectively transferred leadership/responsibility over to me and he hasn't been willing to pick it back up, even in the times when I stopped (briefly) over-functioning.  

For the past 12 years, since I started a job with travel requirements, his jobs have been part time to accommodate being the primary parent, but he has continued to work significantly more hours than paid until I was relieved that he expressed an interest in being a stay at home dad and home school our older son.  That was a 5 year train wreck where he would leave our son alone while he did volunteer work that made him the "great guy that you can always rely on to lend a hand" or worked on his favorite hobbies (which he had expressed an intention to pass on to our sons as part of the home schooling) or napped or went upstairs and masturbated to porn.  I cooked and cleaned when I was home.  I picked up the responsibility for getting the home schooling back on track when I would uncover how far off the rails it had gone. 

BPDh started his own handyman business late last year.  This is something that I encouraged him to do years ago, since it offers up the flexibility to adjust his schedule to fit family needs.  One of the problems is that the "vision" for the business was that he would do the labor and I would do the bidding and billing based on his history of not being willing to charge what his labor is worth.  I'm not willing to do that any longer, so I strongly suspect (based on the income he is claiming vs the number of hours he's been away from home, supposedly working) that he is continuing that pattern.  

He went to a career counselor last year (in anticipation of rejoining the work force) and found a job that paid a good salary and had reasonable work hours.  He had the job offer in hand with a start date the week that S18 was graduating from high school.  S18's home schooling was done through an online high school, so the graduation ceremony was over 500 miles away.  We had been planning to drive down as a family (along with my parents who flew the 2000 miles to get to our place for a vacation scheduled to correspond to the graduation).  Graduation was Saturday.  BPDh refused to ask if he could either start the following week or ask for the Friday off so we could drive down as planned.  He didn't want his manager to question his work ethic.  I literally begged him to talk to some of our friends, particularly one that is a manager, about the reasonable nature of such a request.  He refused.  I (overfunctioning and unwilling to let him suffer the consequence of not being at S18's graduation) kept badgering until he finally said he would just turn down the job since it was now "tainted" by the conflict it had caused between us.

I forgot to mention that he justifies his decision not to ask for the later start date or day off, despite the eventual feedback of our manager friend that he would have no questions about a new employee asking to accommodate an event like that.  His new view on it was that I was being unreasonable for not going along with his "compromise" solution of sending me and the rest of the family down to the graduation, working the Friday and driving all night to get to the graduation, then drive both vehicles back the following day.  

So here we are.  I have a 42 year old skilled husband (wood working, carpentry, electrical, HVAC, tiling, cabinet building and installation, light construction, you name it) with a BA in Biblical Theology who I allowed/encouraged to turn down a salaried job that would have practically MADE him go home at the end of a work day, and encouraged to start a business that I have always assumed I would need to be involved in if there was any hope of it being profitable.  I HAVE trained him to rely on me.  I've treated him with more leniency than I do my children.  Now I am asking him to step up, but still sending mixed messages by offering support that is in excess of what is reasonable.

T keeps asking me why I do it - the over-functioning.   I think a lot of it is F.O.G. avoidance.  I also think that I'm still trying to "deserve" his love and the approval of my dad (and others).  If I can show myself, him and others how much I am willing to do for him; how much pain/inconvenience/discomfort I am willing to take on rather than putting it on him then I will be seen as worthy of his love, gratitude, etc.  Then there's the aspect of not putting myself at risk of being hurt by his failure to step up and the consequences of him making decisions that would impact me and the kids.  Oh so many reasons to over-function.  

And now I need to focus on the reasons to NOT over-function.  
1.  It takes away the chance of him demonstrating change and the willingness to take on the roles of adult, husband, father.
2.  It leaves me exhausted.
3.  It forms a pattern that I act out in ALL relationships.
4.  It is what my boys will see as "normal", potentially long enough for them to follow the pattern and be hurt by it.

I'm sure you can all help me come up with more.

Sorry for the long vent.  We had another mediation appointment yesterday where he was unwilling to accept two different valuations of our house and wanted a listing of my airline/hotel loyalty points because he may want them.  We are telling our boys about the change in living arrangements tonight and he voiced the concern that "when emotions are running high I hope I can keep from telling the boys that I am against the separation and think you should just come home".  This, after being counseled by our pastor and mediator that it's important to not present one parent as the "bad guy".

I feel like I'm letting wounds pile up and fester this week.  I know I need to deal with them.  I need to escape the FOG and engage in some self care.  I'll start by eating breakfast.  Smiling (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #12 on: June 23, 2017, 10:44:26 AM »


Can I sum this up.

For the past 12 years he has been primary parent and picked up some money here and there.

Before that he did have some brief periods of employment... .but nothing substantial.

He is now a self employed handyman.  Good job staying out of that... .let him bid and do the entire thing.

Is this pretty much correct?

FF
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« Reply #13 on: June 23, 2017, 11:34:23 AM »

A bit more accurate summary:

Age 15-22: employed part time while in school. 
Age 22-28: employed full time but prioritizing the emotional rewards of job over responsibility as financial provider for family.  Earned 30-40% of family income working full time.
Age 28-34:  employed part time.  Earned ~10% of family income.
Age 34-36:  employed part time with "agreement" of a certain number of volunteer hours to help our church during financial recession.  Earned <10% of family income
Age 36-40:  unemployed.  Agreement was that he was to be homeschooling full time with volunteer hours as available.
Age 40-now: volunteer work all but prohibited based on counselor/pastoral recommendation.  Focus has been on finding employment that supports him and can eventually contribute substantially to family income (if reconciliation happens).
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« Reply #14 on: June 23, 2017, 03:52:46 PM »

 
Much much clearer.

Tell me about the relationship at age 28.  How did that change?  How did decisions get made?  Basically... .what is the story with the change at 28.

How did he do with homeschooling?

FF
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« Reply #15 on: June 23, 2017, 05:44:23 PM »

At age 28 we realized that, even with both of us working full time, we couldn't afford the kind of life we wanted.  We were living in a high cost of living area at the height of the housing market.  We couldn't afford to buy a 2 bedroom condo that would require 2+ hour commute for at least one of us, much less a small house where we could have pets and a bit more space for our two kids.  I had applied for a transfer with my company to a lower cost of living site when a job offer practically fell into my lap. 

It was a great job that moved us 2000 miles away where we could afford a 4 bedroom house on a 1/4 acre on just my salary.  It was the fresh start that we wanted (the marriage had already gone through several rocky periods, at least one of which had him offering (threatening?) to leave me and the boys) and every question had an answer, every doubt a confirmation that it was the right thing.  BPDh could find work, and did fairly quickly, but my job required 30-50% travel and we had a 6yo and 18 month old, so we agreed he should only work part time so he was more available when they were sick/had events, etc.  That worked okay for a while, but then the same patterns of working longer and longer hours without pay started back up.

Homeschooling was not a good choice.  It sounded great on the surface.  He felt "called" to homeschool our older son so that he could spend extra time with him during his formative years.  We had an extensive network of homeschooling resources, including a coop at our church and one of my closest friends who had homeschooled 3 daughters so successfully that all got full ride scholarships to college and all went into technical fields (nurse, forensics, and pharmacists).  He is a good teacher, but only put consistent effort into the elective classes he taught for the coop (this year the last of his students graduated and asked that BPDh speak at their graduation because that class was so influential for them).  He put so much effort into it that I blamed the coop responsibility for his neglect of our son's schooling when he was falling behind.  "We" tried to course correct a few times, with help from my friend on tips for BPDh on how to keep moving forward and cope with the sometimes tedious nature of homeschooling.  Then BPDh found an online high school that our son could attend, freeing him from compiling and "teaching" the core curriculum.  That was going to give him more time for enrichment activities, electives, and the special things he wanted to do with our son.  That only made things worse.  Rather than reviewing the curriculum and looking for enrichment opportunities, he just started becoming more and more disconnected from what was being studied.  He didn't plan out the timeline of courses that our son would need to complete to remain on track for graduation (the entire program was self paced and self directed).  When I realized this and asked him to do so he said he couldn't figure it out.  I offered up the option of putting him back in "normal" school so BPDh could go back to work, but BPDh didn't want to feel like a failure and would mourn the lost opportunity he would have for the extra time with our son and promise that he would do better.  I went through and built a model plan for the remainder of that school year and showed him how I had done it.  I started following what the curriculum was and suggesting enrichment opportunities (over-functioning).  Then I stepped back, hopeful that BPDh had seen sufficient modeling to continue on.  He also had the regular check ins and offers to help from my friend.

Some version of that pattern repeated itself for 3 more years.  Eventually he started lying to me about our son's progress.  I knew he wasn't doing anything extra with our son, but started my own cycle of "Hope/Denial/Confrontation (with offer to have son go back to school)/Over-functioning/Handing over".  Then we ended up in the situation where BPDh revealed our son had been accepted to a university with full tuition scholarship but was not going to graduate from high school.  I got the school to give an extension and put together a plan to squeeze the remaining 4 months of schooling into 6 weeks (10 hours a day 6 days a week) and monitored/encouraged/taught our son through to the finish line, often remotely from my hotel room as I was still holding down my full time job with travel.

It's one of my biggest regrets that I valued "peace" in my marriage over my son's education.  I abdicated responsibility for doing what I knew was best for our son under the guise of giving BPDh a chance to make good on his promises.  We had counsel from people throughout those last years that BPDh should probably give up the homeschooling and find a job outside the home in the interest of shoring up his (for lack of a better word) ego.  I left the decision up to BPDh when I probably should have just acted in our son's best interest.

Okay.  At this point FF is thinking "Can this woman say ANYTHING in less than 10,000 words?".  Thanks for your patience.  I tend to "think aloud" and the process of writing this up is always helpful for me.  If only you knew how much I delete from these posts.  Smiling (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #16 on: June 23, 2017, 08:55:21 PM »

At this point FF is thinking "Can this woman say ANYTHING in less than 10,000 words?".  Thanks for your patience.  I tend to "think aloud" and the process of writing this up is always helpful for me.  If only you knew how much I delete from these posts.  Smiling (click to insert in post)

We are very similar... .the "pairings" of people or "types of people" that end up with a pwBPD is incredible to me.

Obviously... .success in one r/s is no guarantee of success in another... .but I would encourage you to let your hubby flop around and do what he is going to do.  Why?  Because it worked... or is working in my r/s.

In the last "good" period of my r/s (a few years ago) we decided to make a move to another state, to be close to my wife's family and a job that my wife had gotten.  She said that she would go back to work full time and I would be the "floater" parent that went to school events but also managed family business (real estate).

Well... .once here... she went off deep end.  FOO issues are deep.  Claimed she couldn't remember what she told me about working... it was temporary... .blah blah blah.

Well... .after two years of working full time at various positions at a school, basically doing whatever the principal needed (and doing it well I might add) she has been hired as a full time teacher with her own classroom.  She is excited and I can sense a real feeling of accomplishment.

She did a bunch of special ed work before and then was a  "maternity leave" teacher.

I keep assuring her that I believed in her and that she could figure it out. 

Not at all saying our issues are solved... .but by "not biting" and engaging in drama and debate over her work... .there wasn't much to solve. 

We also home schooled for a while, but have found public school with heavy parental involvement a better fit.

It's been over 10 years since we homeschooled... .perhaps longer.

I think you see the things you need to do, and I can understand how they are scary... .I really can.  Walk the path you need to walk... .let your hubby do what he will.

FF
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« Reply #17 on: June 24, 2017, 08:11:41 AM »


BeagleGirl,

Want to know the funniest "similarity" between us? 

Early on in my work with my P she exclaims... .you use so many words!   

Saying things succinctly has been a focus of our work.  The benefit to a r/s with a pwBPD is that it makes is harder for them to "latch on" to things you didn't mean... .if you don't say so many extra words.

I will say, as does the P, that nuance does matter many times (especially with pwBPD) and nuance can be hard to explain... .without lots of words.   

Lots of words can also help let them off the hook, when they shouldn't be.

":)id you betray my trust or not?" is simple and succinct.

They will use lots of words and try to draw you into a debate to obfuscate

"So you didn't keep your word."    "I'm going to need to think this through before responding further... "

That leaves them to consider their part, with little ability to "blame" you for saying crappy things... .they are the ones with all the "material".

Thoughts?

FF
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« Reply #18 on: June 24, 2017, 10:13:23 AM »

FF,
I 100% agree with you (and your P).  Believe it or not, BPDh's getting so few words from me that his constant complaint is "Why won't you just talk to me?".  It definitely is much more effective.  I'm finding that if I don't JADE, there's not a whole lot left to talk about.

I have tried the "broken record" approach.  Example:  When BPDh starts on another monologue about how hard everything is, especially with the depression and anxiety I've caused.

BG:  (calmly) ":)o you think that I don't struggle with anxiety and depression?" (For all he knows, I'm still on meds for both.  I stopped taking them a couple months ago and this past week have been REALLY struggling with the anxiety and it's definitely impacting my ability to work, but he knows none of that.) 
BGh:  He starts talking about how HE is depressed and anxious.
BG:  ":)o you think that I don't struggle with anxiety and depression?"
BGh:  Starts talking about how my situation is so much easier than his. 
BG:  ":)o you think that I don't struggle with anxiety and depression?"
BGh: He goes back to how he can't figure out how he's going to work with this level of depression. 
BG: "It's a yes or no question.  Do you think that I don't struggle with anxiety and depression?"
BGh: Begrudgingly admits that he figures I probably do face anxiety and depression with lots of other words.
BG:  "Thank you for answering the question.  I do deal with anxiety and depression.  But I don't feel it is your responsibility to deal with that, so I'd appreciate it if we don't make our anxiety and depression a topic of discussion right now."

That was probably fairly passive aggressive on my part, but I decided to give it a try at getting him to think about what he actually believes about my emotional state.  BG of the past would have spent a significant amount of time explaining back to him how anxious and depressed SHE was and how it was impacting her work.  BG of the future may just skip the question and set the boundary of "I don't want to hear about your depression and anxiety right now.  I want to focus on the logistics of the separation and telling our boys."

So the extra words need to go somewhere and I've chosen to put them here.   Smiling (click to insert in post)

Last night we told our boys about the new living arrangements.  It was MUCH less emotional than the original separation discussion.  That was a relief partially because BPDh had made the statement Thursday night when we were planning the talk "I really hope that when emotions are running high I can keep from telling the boys how much I am against this separation."  I responded to that with "That's not really something I have control over, but I do hope that you're able to follow the advice we've been given about not making one of us the "bad guy"." and moved on.

The surprise for the night:  When BPDh finished telling the boys the plan for him to move into a rental house and me move back into the family home S18 speaks up and says "You already told me all of this".

So I'm left wondering how much BPDh has been "confiding" in S18.  S18 is an adult, and is being given more autonomy in deciding where he wants to stay when he is home (though I will encourage him to sleep wherever S14 is sleeping) but I still don't feel it is appropriate to give him more information and treat him as a sounding board.  I guess I'm not really all that surprised that BPDh has probably been doing so, but it disappoints me, as does the fact that BPDh did so without informing me that he had. 

I'm feeling like I need to stop looking for opportunities for him to demonstrate that he cares about me.  I started doing it partially because "showing care" is what our T and pastor are asking him to work on.  So why not "over-function" and create opportunities for him? Smiling (click to insert in post)  There's also an element of my pride involved.  BPDh often claims that I'm not even giving our marriage a chance.  If I know that there have been opportunities for him to show he cares for me and he's passed them up, then I know "nothing's changed" and feel more justified in not doing anything more to rebuild the marriage.  There's also an element of just plain wanting to feel that he cares enough about me to act in a caring manner.

Example:  I'm moving out of my apartment next Friday.  Our parenting plan has the kids with me starting the next day.  BPDh doesn't know if he can move into his rental house that day or not.  The rental house has to pass city inspection.  I see two opportunities for him to "show care". 
1.  He could offer to help me move. 
2.  He could offer to find a place to stay starting that Friday until his rental house is ready for occupancy.

He took neither opportunity over the past 3 weeks since I told him my move out date (he did inform me that he intended to start renting June 30th, but that the city occupancy approval could drag out another week or two).

I found a friend who is willing to let me live with her until BPDh moves out of the house, but that leaves me without a "home" where I can have the kids full time until BPDh moves out.  I also found a friend who is willing to lend me her van so I can move my furniture out of my apartment.  I have plans in case BPDh offers no help, but don't proactively inform BPDh of that.  He hasn't asked.  I don't tell.

Then I "took away" part of opportunity 1 by setting the expectation that he would be responsible for moving furniture he wanted for his new rental place if it was open to him by Friday.  Wait 2 weeks.  Then I took away all of opportunity 1 by telling him that I was disappointed that he was not offering any help in moving me.  He has now "offered" to bring out his van and the boys and help me move.  But he "ruined" even that by saying he hopes I will be willing to carry furniture into his rental house for him.

Opportunity 2 has been sitting out there.  He's not offering.  I've basically taken that one away too now, because I told him I have a place to stay until he moves out and that I will expect him to vacate the house from 8am-9pm until he can completely move out so that I can have a home to spend time in with my boys.

I just don't understand how he can not see these opportunities to show care for me.  Worse yet, I feel like he does see the opportunities and feels justified in choosing to pass them up.  He is being told by our T and pastor, as well as me that willingness to take care of himself and "show care" for me is what I am looking for from him.  I feel (and T agrees) like he is asking me to give him a detailed check-list of what "showing care" looks like and he can choose what he wants to do and should get "credit" for doing those things.

Argh.  I think I need to stop expecting (hoping?) that he will be able/willing to show care for me.  It just creates uncertainty, drama, and hurt on my part.  I state my minimum expectations from him (and not even depending on his ability/willingness to meet those) and he will choose to do what I have asked or actively refuse.  I write this and realize that it boils down to "treat him like a defiant child".  That makes me feel so sad.
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« Reply #19 on: June 24, 2017, 11:11:13 AM »

Can you really expect someone to "show care" with something they are morally against?

I would challenge you to think that through and to find ways he can show care that are "win win" for both of you.

FF
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« Reply #20 on: June 24, 2017, 01:39:59 PM »

Not sure if I have seen the word "enmeshment" used much in your threads.  Might be something to discuss with your T, individually and on a joint basis.

Broadly, there seems to be a big "investment" by you, and from your description of your hubby... from him too, in what each of you "think" about each other.

I think it would be interesting (and informative) for you to spend time evaluating yourself and your motives to figure out how many of your actions and driven (motivated by) a desire for your hubby to think something (and perhaps do something).  Compare that to the amount of actions driven by a desire for you to meet your values, to think and feel things about yourself.

Big picture:  In any marriage or r/s, there will be a certain amount of enmeshment.  Like most things in a r/s with a pwBPD... .it's way out of kilter... .for both people in the r/s.



I have tried the "broken record" approach.  Example:  When BPDh starts on another monologue about how hard everything is, especially with the depression and anxiety I've caused.

When engage on this at all.  Or, if you are going to engage, ask a legitimate question that would relate directly to the MC that you are doing.  I'm assuming each of you being responsible for your own feelings is/has been part of T.  

"Hey babe... .help me understand how what you just said relates to what MC talked with us about "causing" each other to feel things"   (adjust to match actual T words)

blah blah blah you made me, you always... .you never... blah blah blah

(stay friendly)

"Oh my... .our marriage is important to me.  I want to give our marriage my best effort.  I'm going to pause this discussion until MC on Wed... ."

Then... .discuss it no further...



BG:  (calmly) ":)o you think that I don't struggle with anxiety and depression?" (For all he knows, I'm still on meds for both.  I stopped taking them a couple months ago and this past week have been REALLY struggling with the anxiety and it's definitely impacting my ability to work, but he knows none of that.)  
BGh:  He starts talking about how HE is depressed and anxious.
BG:  ":)o you think that I don't struggle with anxiety and depression?"
BGh:  Starts talking about how my situation is so much easier than his.  
BG:  ":)o you think that I don't struggle with anxiety and depression?"
BGh: He goes back to how he can't figure out how he's going to work with this level of depression.  
BG: "It's a yes or no question.  :)o you think that I don't struggle with anxiety and depression?"
BGh: Begrudgingly admits that he figures I probably do face anxiety and depression with lots of other words.
BG:  "Thank you for answering the question.  I do deal with anxiety and depression.  But I don't feel it is your responsibility to deal with that, so I'd appreciate it if we don't make our anxiety and depression a topic of discussion right now."

I would discuss this method with your T.  She may endorse it for a short time.  I would think that she would think it could be rubbing a raw wound.  Sometimes they do need to be rubbed... .that is a T decision, you and I are too involved to figure that out.

Basically... .I could see this approach as "being rough" with his feelings.  If it's ok for you to do to him... .why not the converse.  This is a place to show leadership.

BG:  Oh... .hey... .help me understand how that answers the question I asked?

blah blah

BG:  It hurts my feelings that you make my question about you.  I'm going to go care for my hurt feelings. (leave room... .and for real... .take a walk, care for your feelings)

That was probably fairly passive aggressive on my part, but I decided to give it a try at getting him to think about what he actually believes about my emotional state.  

I'm not the best at PA behavior and identifying it.  I don't think this was PA.  I think it was actually aggressive and assertive.  To me PA is saying something is fine, when it's not, and tossing in a slight jab, while pretending not to.

I don't see you pretending.

Hope this helps.

Last big picture.  If your approach works, with your Ts blessing keep it up.  Be pragmatic.

Last question:  Should you really be asking a disordered person for an opinion about your feelings?  What possible good can come from that?



FF
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« Reply #21 on: June 24, 2017, 06:22:35 PM »

You know... .it isn't your job to give him "opportunities" and it really isn't all that healthy either.

I certainly had my wife pulling the "You were supposed to read my mind and know what I wanted... .now that I've told you it doesn't count and I don't want it anymore." a lot, and that was no fun.

Besides... .I think your efforts today are best spent trying to have a clean and clear co-parenting separation. For now, let him figure out what he needs to do to reconcile, instead of trying to spoon-feed it to him.
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« Reply #22 on: June 28, 2017, 03:02:50 PM »

It's been a busy week, but I wanted to provide an update and answer at least one of FF's questions:

The question that I'm still pondering but broke into two aspects:
":)o I expect BPDh to show me care when it is in a way that supports the separation?"  ":)oes BPDh see the separation as morally wrong?"

Frankly, I have no real way of knowing the answer to the second question.  I have my opinion and the opinion of our T.  I could get the opinion of our pastor.  My opinion and the opinion of our T is that BPDh doesn't like the separation because it is "disconnecting the feeding tube" and his "moral objection" is a way of inducing FOG.  He talks a lot about it being "a step towards divorce", despite reassurances from me, our T, our pastor, etc that separation can be a step towards change and healing.  Divorce is something we both feel is contradictory to our faith outside the Biblical allowances. 

Do I expect BPDh to show me care in ways that support a separation - like helping me move out of my apartment and offering to sleep elsewhere so I can have time in the family home with our boys?  Yes.  I do.  He may not like this separation, but it is what I am asking of him with the support of our T and our pastor.  These activities are currently the opportunities he has to show that he is going to put effort into caring for my needs.  They aren't the only opportunities.  I could make a list of things he has been asked by our T to do that he has chosen not to.  I could also come up with a list of things that he would do if he could read my mind and was willing to do them.  Smiling (click to insert in post)

Don't think that I don't second guess that expectation every other minute.  I feel most secure in that expectation when I talk to our T.  She keeps encouraging me to stop "feeding" BPDh so that he can be forced into a decision about whether he is willing to really address his responsibilities as a husband.  She feels that I should avoid telling him what loving me looks like so he can take responsibility for putting into practice the things she, our pastor, and the Bible and are already instructing him to do.

So T and GK are in full agreement. 

So I'm trying to focus on moving forward with the separation in such a way that I'm not "over functioning" and keeping dependency in play.  I don't know that I'll balance the 70/30 split of marital assets (in his favor) that I've proposed, but I need to let him figure out what to do with those assets as he builds (or fails to build) a functional home and life for himself.  I'm still taking financial responsibility for everything for our sons (something T understands but feels is still over-functioning).  The major battle against "over-functioning" for me will be in setting spousal maintenance.  T is advising that I give no more than is legally required of me.  Let BPDh figure out how to get what is absolutely necessary and make some hard decisions that HE will face the consequences of (like dropping DBT sessions to a number HE can afford/month or getting his doctor to go through the step therapy required to have his antidepressant covered by our insurance).

So in the past week he has figured out how to have the dogs at his rental place, agreed to move my furniture out of my apartment, and to sleep at a friend's house until his rental house is ready for occupancy.  These are all things that I asked him to do.  My T's "prescription" is to say "Thank You" but not give in to his expectation that he should be given "extra credit" for doing these things.  These are things that he should be doing because he is part owner of the dogs, a father who cares about his son's access to the family pets, and the moving is partially getting his own furniture to his new rental and partially something he would do for a friend who didn't have a vehicle for moving. 

We talked about therapeutic separation guidelines again.  T feels that BPDh needs to take responsibility for mapping out what reconciliation looks like and the first step is repentance.  She feels that he is still unwilling to recognize his abusive behaviors and address them. 

On a related topic - I finally worked up the courage to ask my mom for the support I need.  She's been silent since they went back home and I found out that her sister's chemo is not going well.  I reached out to her to see how she was doing.  She was open about how overwhelmed she feels right now with my dad's cancer, her sister's cancer and "my daughter leaving my favorite son-in-law".  I let her know I know she has a lot to handle right now and that I'm praying for her.  She started giving advice and asking why I felt the separation is necessary and I was able to say:
"I know you and dad really want to understand and help, but I don't want you in a position where you might feel like you are picking sides.  I need you to trust that I am being supported in this separation by our pastor and marriage counselor." 

I was able to share a bit about S14's silent treatment and how we worked through it.  She mentioned how much easier I was to discipline than my brothers.  I said "That's because I hated to feel like I was disappointing you.  I still do.".  She said "I know", and I feel it helped her see a bit more clearly what this is like for me.

So that's my update. 

BG
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« Reply #23 on: June 28, 2017, 03:50:31 PM »

I use tor rescue  my ex because I was dysfunctional. It was all about me. When I ceased and began to treat him as the adult he is SUPPOSED to be, it forced him to become that adult. We teach people how to treat us. I taught him that I was a worthy person when I began to hold him responsible for his own life.
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« Reply #24 on: June 28, 2017, 04:50:03 PM »



Great update.  I'm really proud of the course you are plotting.
A few comments... .I've rearranged some of them... .most important first.

She feels that I should avoid telling him what loving me looks like so he can take responsibility for putting into practice the things she, our pastor, and the Bible and are already instructing him to do.

This is critical.  It seems you see this... .I hope you stay aware of your tendency to "over-function" and let the professionals help him sort it out.
 
We talked about therapeutic separation guidelines again.  T feels that BPDh needs to take responsibility 

I'm glad these are still being discussed.  And I agree that he needs to take responsibility.  I'm very curious and I would suggest that you ask your T, how you communicating YOUR DESIRES, in writing and in detail, for what a TS looks like is unhelpful.

I see this as you put in your desires, he puts in his and the TS "managers" then make their recommendation. 

Here is another specific concern to ask your T.  "Leaving the structure and pace of a TS up to a disordered person seems like a recipe for disaster"  How does her plan address that.

This comes from a place of valuing direct and clear communication.

Part of your input would, undoubtedly, be "for my hubby to repent and seek genuine reconciliation"

Totally reasonable.

Your hubby says "I have".  You stay silent and all the counselors and pastors say "We haven't seen any evidence of that... .and we'll be working with you on this until you get it right"

Or... .your hubby may say "No... .I'm not reconciling"... .or... he may say something else.

Thoughts?  Am I missing  something on the TS "guidelines"?


- like helping me move out of my apartment and offering to sleep elsewhere so I can have time in the family home with our boys?  Yes.  I do.  He may not like this separation, but it is what I am asking of him with the support of our T and our pastor.  These activities are currently the opportunities he has to show that he is going to put effort into caring for my needs.

So... BeagleGirl... .please trust that I'm on your side.  None of the following is a criticism.  It's my analysis, based on a "boundaries" point of view. 

I do think you should say thanks and "a bit more" for what he does... .after he has done them.  In my opinion he is going well above and beyond the call of duty to accommodate your requests.  I'm not sure what "extra credit" is... .but much more than thank you is called for.

Please correct any factual errors in my "boundaries" analysis.  I realize that tons of nuance is missing.

BG is unhappy with marriage and decides to move out.  BG is adult and is able to manage the move on her own.

BG wants to move back into family home and wants hubby to leave.  BG is adult and can manage her part of the move on her own.

This is especially important because BG's partner does not want any of this moving in and out to be happening.

Yet... .after being asked... .he agrees to help.  Let's not go overboard until it's actually done, but it would seem this is a HUGE gesture on his part and deserves much more than "thank you".

I think it would be interesting to understand how many guys would say yes to this request.  I wouldn't.

Perhaps last thing to ask T, and this comes from my own counseling experience, there could be valid reasons for different recommendations in your r/s.  "Always look to build a bridge... ."... ."especially when they are building a bridge toward you.

IMO... .your hubby is promising to build an interstate highway... .if he actually goes through with your requests. 

Again... .there may be valid reasons for you to hold back, but you would need to know that... .in detail.

For instance, I always build a bridge... .but I also don't get "too close".  My wife is just unable to sustain "closeness" for weeks... .and certainly not months.  It's a way for my to "smooth things out".

FF



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Relationship status: Divorced
Posts: 570



« Reply #25 on: June 28, 2017, 08:25:54 PM »

I guess a few nuances that I feel are important are:

Separation-
I feel it was more than just "BG unhappy in marriage".  There was a clear pattern of emotional and verbal abuse that our T/MC confirmed seeing directly in our sessions as well as from what I described.

I started proposing TS 6 months before I moved out.  BPDh (undiagnosed at the time) was unwilling to participate.  He declined the repeated requests of a structured TS, suggesting that it was "a step toward divorce".  I attempted "lesser" separations, like moving out of our bedroom and trying to create more physical distance by traveling for work, and starting boundary setting.  The emotional/verbal abuse escalated during this time.  I finally moved out and requested 1 month of NC.  From that point on, I have repeatedly expressed willingness to discuss ideas around TS if BPDh is willing to do some research and come with some ideas on what he wants TS to look like and accomplish (other than just counting down the clock until I "have to come home".  He has done some reading online, but has not proposed any ideas or (to my knowledge) asked for help from T or our pastor on putting something in place.

Helping me move-
All of the items in my apartment that I am not capable of moving in my car are items that he has said he wants for his rental house.  Rather than having me move the items from my apartment to our house, only to have him turn around and move them to his apartment, I think it's reasonable for him to move them from my apartment to his rental house (which I established he could move things into before asking him to do the moving).

Finding a place to stay until his rental is ready-
About 7-8 weeks ago I started communicating that I was wanting more time with the boys and my apartment wasn't suitable for the indefinite term of our separation.  6 weeks ago I told him I was going to give notice and move out June 30th.  I gave him the option of staying in the house and I would look for another place to live.  He chose to be the one to look for a new place.  He dragged his feet enough that I offered again.  He found the place he's intending to move knowing that it there was a possibility it might not pass inspection by the 30th.  I also had sent him my proposal for time with the kids that had me with them the first two weeks of July and asked if he wanted any adjustment.  I also know that he has at least 3 single male friends who have offered to let him stay with them.  I know those three pieces of information have to be connected in his mind for him to think "Hey, I should find a place to stay until my rental house is ready so that BG can have a place to be with the boys full time during her two weeks". 

He had the opportunity over the past 6 weeks to choose to stay in the house and have me find alternate housing, adjust the parenting schedule so that he would have the kids the first two weeks of July, giving more time for the rental house to be ready before I would have the boys, or check with one of the 3 single friends to make sure the offer still stood.

I don't know if those nuances impact your viewpoint at all.  I'll definitely think about your perspective on how much appreciation is due for what he is agreeing to do.
BG



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formflier
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Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Relationship status: Married
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« Reply #26 on: June 28, 2017, 09:33:18 PM »

The nuance is always important, even more so in a r/s with a pwBPD.

On the other hand, "nons" in a r/s with a pwBPD can get FOGed up, twisted up, nuanced up and loose sight of a fundamental truths.

We are responsible for our own decisions and well being and should expect others to do so as well.

From a boundaries point of view when we invite someone "onto our property" to help take care of our responsibilities and they accept and help... .it's a big deal.

If they are doing something they would really rather not do, but are doing so "because it's you"... .that's a huge deal... .their actions speaks volumes their feelings for you.

Please... don't minimize that by JADEing it down to "he should do it because xyz".

If you are looking for "evidence" or wanting to give your hubby "opportunities" to do the right thing... .this is it.  Again... .wait until it's actually done... .but this huge.

Again... .my example is a big simplification... .I know it's volumes more than "BG unhappy in marriage".

The fundamental truth is that you made a move (appropriately so) to change the dynamic in the marriage and should own what goes with your decision.  Your husband should own his decisions.

ON the TS thing.  

I simply don't get how the "he waits till it's time for me to come home" thing keeps coming up.  Put that number 1 on YOUR list.

"I won't even consider coming back until repentance and verifiable heart change.  Fruit of change should be in abundance and undeniable."

After that... .you will consider it.

He must know that he is doing it because that is what he is called to do... .not because it gets you home.

I do get it that you would like him to take the initiative.  That's not who he is.  He may be that man someday.

 

FF



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Grey Kitty
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Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: Separated
Posts: 7182



« Reply #27 on: June 29, 2017, 04:37:27 PM »

I simply don't get how the "he waits till it's time for me to come home" thing keeps coming up.  Put that number 1 on YOUR list.

"I won't even consider coming back until repentance and verifiable heart change.  Fruit of change should be in abundance and undeniable."

After that... .you will consider it.

There is something really important in here, BG.

You hit a high threshold of what you wouldn't accept in your marriage, and moved out--you DID separate from him, and it was exactly what you needed to do at the time, I might add.

"Not being as bad as what drove you to leave" isn't the same as good enough for you to move back into actively participating in a marriage and living with him.

And especially "Waiting for a clock to tick away for xxx weeks/months of separation" isn't enough for you to move back into actively participating in a marriage with him.

Do you remember the you made of the things you want in a marriage? I'd suggest that you need to see the majority of that list (if not ALL of it)... .and believe it is there to stay.

What are you afraid of? Are you afraid that you will accept far less than you should? Are you afraid that a pastor or MC will tell you that you are asking for too much, and you will somehow be forced back?
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« Reply #28 on: June 29, 2017, 04:50:42 PM »



What are you afraid of? Are you afraid that you will accept far less than you should? Are you afraid that a pastor or MC will tell you that you are asking for too much, and you will somehow be forced back?

Beagle,

I'm going to take a shot at a guess.  Let's say he does improve... it's verifiable and there is pressure for you to go back... . Let's also say you don't want to... .a deep down in your gut kinda NOO.

Can we also say that we "cross that bridge when you get there"?

Think about this... .the best case scenario is that both of you go through a lot of change during the TS... .you will be different... .he will be different.  You may want different things.  

Or... .

That's the thing... there is no way to know.  

FF
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