Should I pull the plug on this?

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

Some of you will know my story regarding my ex BPD married lover. It has been a torturous affair over a long period of time. It came to a head 3 months ago when I walked away due to the ST and apparent distancing that I felt she was doing.

I have had some difficult conversations around this r/s on these boards and I have accepted I have a part to play in the situation and where we are now. I don't really want to go into the justifications in this post on either side. I need to focus on a specific issue.

She recently told me she had made a suicide attempt and it was my fault. She also told me that taking her off Facebook was cruel and heartless. She said if I felt her worthy to be in my life then I should reinstate her on FB. I said I would if she would start talking to me again. I reinstated her and we agreed we would talk on Friday, but she never contacted me. I asked her why and she said she thought I wasn't around (based on my non activity on WhatsApp).

I told her that the reason I want to talk to her is that I want to discuss what happened regarding her suicide attempt. I feel like she is deliberately avoiding me. I have fluctuated around whether I believe this suicide attempt actually happened or whether it was manipulation. I am back at the place where I feel she is lying to me and she has somebody else that she is close to. I am so effing fed up with this whole situation that I now feel like pulling the plug on the whole thing.

I have tried very hard to be understanding this time around and she even commented the other day that my message didn't sound like me because I wasn't being antagonistic. After a few days of relative calm the situation is now beginning to spark my anger again. Last night I told her in a very nice message that we had an agreement that if I reinstated her on FB that she would talk to me. I am feeling that this whole suicide thing is just manipulation. I have no idea which is the truth. If she has manipulated me to get back on FB, then I just want to pull the plug and also block her on WhatsApp.

The truth of the matter is while there has been some detachment, reinstating her on FB has made me feel that we could recycle. I suppose I did it in the hope that eventually we could see each other again. But her reneging on the deal is just making me feel manipulated. She would clearly be happy with just a friendship, or more accurately, to see what I'm doing on FB with minimum engagement. Which isn't really a friendship. I told her I had food poisoning last weekend and she hasn't asked me how I am. I told her that Thursday was the anniversary of my brother's death and I wanted to be close to her. No response.

So if the suicide attempt or emotional breakdown is genuine, then I guess any kind of communication that requires an emotional input from her is going to be scary and unwelcome and she is going to hide from. If I believe her version of events then the silence is just her keeping a distance from me to keep safe.

But what if this whole thing is just manipulation so that she can spy on me on FB. She shows no desire to talk to me or engage in any way. She just wants the connection of FB. This woman has been a major love of my life. However, the way she has behaved towards me has been hurtful and lacking any love or compassion. Why on earth should I keep her on FB other than out of compassion? But if she is lying about the suicide attempt then why should i have compassion for her?

My emotions are becoming loud over this issue and in the past I would simply have cut her off Facebook to quieten my disturbance. I am trying to do this differently now by posting on here before I act. It is intolerable to me that I should be made a fool of by this woman and yet I still care for her, though no longer desperately.

I need some loving help and advice.

[RomanticFool]

Some of you will know my story regarding my ex BPD married lover. It has been a torturous affair over a long period of time. It came to a head 3 months ago when I walked away due to the ST and apparent distancing that I felt she was doing.

I have had some difficult conversations around this r/s on these boards and I have accepted I have a part to play in the situation and where we are now. I don't really want to go into the justifications in this post on either side. I need to focus on a specific issue.

She recently told me she had made a suicide attempt and it was my fault. She also told me that taking her off Facebook was cruel and heartless. She said if I felt her worthy to be in my life then I should reinstate her on FB. I said I would if she would start talking to me again. I reinstated her and we agreed we would talk on Friday, but she never contacted me. I asked her why and she said she thought I wasn't around (based on my non activity on WhatsApp).

I told her that the reason I want to talk to her is that I want to discuss what happened regarding her suicide attempt. I feel like she is deliberately avoiding me. I have fluctuated around whether I believe this suicide attempt actually happened or whether it was manipulation. I am back at the place where I feel she is lying to me and she has somebody else that she is close to. I am so effing fed up with this whole situation that I now feel like pulling the plug on the whole thing.

I have tried very hard to be understanding this time around and she even commented the other day that my message didn't sound like me because I wasn't being antagonistic. After a few days of relative calm the situation is now beginning to spark my anger again. Last night I told her in a very nice message that we had an agreement that if I reinstated her on FB that she would talk to me. I am feeling that this whole suicide thing is just manipulation. I have no idea which is the truth. If she has manipulated me to get back on FB, then I just want to pull the plug and also block her on WhatsApp.

The truth of the matter is while there has been some detachment, reinstating her on FB has made me feel that we could recycle. I suppose I did it in the hope that eventually we could see each other again. But her reneging on the deal is just making me feel manipulated. She would clearly be happy with just a friendship, or more accurately, to see what I'm doing on FB with minimum engagement. Which isn't really a friendship. I told her I had food poisoning last weekend and she hasn't asked me how I am. I told her that Thursday was the anniversary of my brother's death and I wanted to be close to her. No response.

So if the suicide attempt or emotional breakdown is genuine, then I guess any kind of communication that requires an emotional input from her is going to be scary and unwelcome and she is going to hide from. If I believe her version of events then the silence is just her keeping a distance from me to keep safe.

But what if this whole thing is just manipulation so that she can spy on me on FB. She shows no desire to talk to me or engage in any way. She just wants the connection of FB. This woman has been a major love of my life. However, the way she has behaved towards me has been hurtful and lacking any love or compassion. Why on earth should I keep her on FB other than out of compassion? But if she is lying about the suicide attempt then why should i have compassion for her?

My emotions are becoming loud over this issue and in the past I would simply have cut her off Facebook to quieten my disturbance. I am trying to do this differently now by posting on here before I act. It is intolerable to me that I should be made a fool of by this woman and yet I still care for her, though no longer desperately.

I need some loving help and advice.

[onelittleladybug]

I need some loving help and advice.

Im sorry RF I cant give that to you. What I can give to you right now is a reality check.

I dont see her in a push pull cycle with you. I see you in a push pull cycle with her. I dont see her manipulating you, I see you manipulating her. Just a couple days ago you were saying this:

Even if it was manipulation, it doesn't change my approach, she must be in terrible pain to to say she tried to kill herself if she didn't.

... .perhaps I am coming out of the sex addiction and waking up to the emotional devastation that has occurred, with her and also with myself.

What happened? Your post today is hugely different from what you wrote only a couple days ago. Because of Facebook and Whatsapp? Do you see how inconsistently you are acting? You are being completely reactionary. You dont have a plan, a commitment.

This woman just told you she tried to kill herself, and you think this might be her way of getting you back? Reality check number one: Based on everything youve said she has no problem getting you back if she wants to. She doesnt need to risk her life for it.

I have lost 2 people in my life to their own hands because of mental illness. Trust me if you havent experienced this you do not want to. If this ever becomes your emotional reality, thinking of someone you lost this way manipulation wont be on your mind anymore.

Reality check 2: Her getting in touch or wanting you to still be connected with her on Facebook does not mean she wants to get back together. Her getting in touch at all does not mean the same. Its human to reach out to people that have been a huge part of our lives, even if the relationship is ending in its previous form. Its healthy to still feel love for those people even when communication has repeatedly failed and the relationship has nowhere left to go.

I reinstated her and we agreed we would talk on Friday, but she never contacted me. I asked her why and she said she thought I wasn't around (based on my non activity on WhatsApp).

I have tried very hard to be understanding this time around and she even commented the other day that my message didn't sound like me because I wasn't being antagonistic. After a few days of relative calm the situation is now beginning to spark my anger again.

This is why she didnt call. She is afraid of your anger. She misses your good sides but she is getting more of the anger and control.

I told her I had food poisoning last weekend and she hasn't asked me how I am. I told her that Thursday was the anniversary of my brother's death and I wanted to be close to her. No response.

This is going to be harsh (even more so than everything else Ive said) but that sounds needy. Ive been on the receiving end of similar and its unattractive. Also this is an affair. There isnt room for these things in an affair. Your primary partner is the one around for food poisonings and death anniversaries. I hope. And if not then this is something you should be looking into way more than focusing all your energy on this affair.

That said Im sincerely sorry for your loss   And food poisonings suck, Im on day two of being bedridden with either poisoning or a bug and my pwBPD is not talking to me yet again. Gotta love it.

But what if this whole thing is just manipulation so that she can spy on me on FB. She shows no desire to talk to me or engage in any way.

The suicide was a manipulation to get you to add her back on FB? Do you want to think about this a little bit?

RF it is perfectly understandable if you need to detach and go NC - but only to heal and move on. So far RF you have been using NC as a way to manipulate her. You say you are going NC for you but when she reaches out you get all excited and you feel like you have all the power. You consider one word from her to be a recycle attempt (it isnt). When things dont go your way you get furious and you empathy and kindness is out the window.

Btw if she really has BPD you need bucket loads of empathy if you are going to keep her in your life. And self compassion. But control isnt going to help you at all.

I want to say a couple more things on going NC: I read a really great advice on a ADHD site. "Only one crazy person at a time". In my r/s with pwBPD I'm learning that when he is dysregulating I have to stay balanced. Its really hard and it sucks because I feel like my needs come last and my crazy making factors in life are real and present. But its just the way it is. Your ex just tried to commit suicide. IMO this is not a good time to go NC as it adds more pain to her already volatile state. If this becomes a pattern (suicide attempts) you might still go NC to protect yourself, but I dont think NC is constructive now. My 2c and Im sure a lot of people are going to disagree with me.

I want to ask you why do you feel the need to delete her from facebook, block her etc? Is it to stop her from contacting you, or is it to stop yourself from contacting her?

Lastly I know Ive been really harsh on you today. I hope I didnt go overboard. But I think its a good idea for you to think about this. You wont stop obsessing about this relationship until you start thinking about things in different ways. It doesnt matter if you are in contact with her or not, its all about your thoughts and perceptions. Your feelings and the r/s dynamic will change once you change your perspective.

[RomanticFool]

RF it is perfectly understandable if you need to detach and go NC - but only to heal and move on. So far RF you have been using NC as a way to manipulate her.

Actually, that's not true. I originally used NC as a way of getting out of the hideously codependent r/s I had got myself embroiled in.

Im sorry RF I cant give that to you. What I can give to you right now is a reality check.

I've had alot of reality checking on here. Am I not entitled to the same love and care as everybody else on these boards?

I dont see her in a push pull cycle with you. I see you in a push pull cycle with her. I dont see her manipulating you, I see you manipulating her. Just a couple days ago you were saying this:

So you don't think saying she will talk to me and then not doing it is a push/pull cycle? Everything she ever did in this r/s was push/pull. I lived with t on a daily basis and it was horrible.

What happened? Your post today is hugely different from what you wrote only a couple days ago. Because of Facebook and Whatsapp? Do you see how inconsistently you are acting? You are being completely reactionary. You dont have a plan, a commitment.

This is how this r/s has got me. On the back foot. I tried to walk away and she reeled me back in by contacting me three times. I was very consistent until she contacted me. What this reconnection has illustrated to me is that I cannot balance my emotions while she is connected to me and going silent. It is too much for me. So, it's great that everybody is seeing it from her point of view. I am going crazy myself!

This woman just told you she tried to kill herself, and you think this might be her way of getting you back? Reality check number one: Based on everything youve said she has no problem getting you back if she wants to. She doesnt need to risk her life for it.

The only reason I reinstated her on FB was because she said she tried to kill herself. I don't know if I believe her. It's not as if pwBPD don't lie is it. This isn't about getting me back. I know she doesn't want me back. It's about getting me under control. What better way to do that then say it was my fault. She doesn't need to do alot of things, but she does them because that's the way she has always been. She didn't need to abuse me for a year while drinking either, but she did.

I have lost 2 people in my life to their own hands because of mental illness. Trust me if you havent experienced this you do not want to. If this ever becomes your emotional reality, thinking of someone you lost this way manipulation wont be on your mind anymore.

I lost 2 friends when I was young through suicide... .and what they didn't do was constantly threaten it and then claim they attempted it but not give me any details about the alleged attempt. What they in fact did, was just do it. Now I repeat, the only reason I reinstated her on FB was out of compassion. But all the while in the back of my mind is this feeling that I am being manipulated and it is driving me crazy. And if I had a pound for every time she threatened to walk away in the past, I would be a rich man.

Reality check 2: Her getting in touch or wanting you to still be connected with her on Facebook does not mean she wants to get back together. Her getting in touch at all does not mean the same. Its human to reach out to people that have been a huge part of our lives, even if the relationship is ending in its previous form. Its healthy to still feel love for those people even when communication has repeatedly failed and the relationship has nowhere left to go.

It is not healthy to want to spy on somebody's facebook when the r/s is over. It is not healthy not to enquire about somebody's health when you know they have been ill. This woman does not give a fig about my well being. I am sorry to disillusion you. What she cares about is having the control of knowing details about my life. I think it's called stalking.

This is why she didnt call. She is afraid of your anger. She misses your good sides but she is getting more of the anger and control.

We have been involved in a 14 year r/s on and off. She has never been afraid of me. This business about being afraid of my anger is nonsense. It is more JADE than anger. Having a r/s with a borderline is hard enough. Having a texting r/s with one is impossible.

This is going to be harsh (even more so than everything else Ive said) but that sounds needy. Ive been on the receiving end of similar and its unattractive. Also this is an affair. There isnt room for these things in an affair. Your primary partner is the one around for food poisonings and death anniversaries. I hope. And if not then this is something you should be looking into way more than focusing all your energy on this affair.

Except, when her brother died and her father died, I was the one she turned to for emotional support. I was the one whose shoulder she cried on for support. I think that is why I feel so marginalised and betrayed. I am not cut out for an affair. I care too much about all that stuff. Btw wanting somebody to give you tlc isn't needy. It is human. Whether in a r/s or not. It's called love. Only somebody who has never lost a sibling at a young age would say it is needy. I feel sorry for you that you think that.

That said Im sincerely sorry for your loss  Empathy And food poisonings suck, Im on day two of being bedridden with either poisoning or a bug and my pwBPD is not talking to me yet again. Gotta love it.

Well that suck for you too. I don't want a r/s with an emotional child. I'm sorry if that sounds harsh.

Btw if she really has BPD you need bucket loads of empathy if you are going to keep her in your life. And self compassion. But control isnt going to help you at all.

I cannot have empathy for somebody who treats me like sh*t. I don't even like this person anymore. For some reason I just have a compulsion to hear from her. It's so effing annoying.

I want to say a couple more things on going NC: I read a really great advice on a ADHD site. "Only one crazy person at a time". In my r/s with pwBPD I'm learning that when he is dysregulating I have to stay balanced. Its really hard and it sucks because I feel like my needs come last and my crazy making factors in life are real and present. But its just the way it is. Your ex just tried to commit suicide. IMO this is not a good time to go NC as it adds more pain to her already volatile state. If this becomes a pattern (suicide attempts) you might still go NC to protect yourself, but I dont think NC is constructive now. My 2c and Im sure a lot of people are going to disagree with me.

And this is precisely what she was trying to achieve by telling me about the suicide attempt. If that isn't manipulation then I don't know what is. She knows I am not going to cut her off FB at the moment and is withholding information as a means of retaining control. I have no way of knowing whether she is genuine or not and I'm afraid she is perfectly capable of lying about it. However, because I may be wrong, I am now forced to have an uncommunicative ex spying on me. That sucks.

I want to ask you why do you feel the need to delete her from facebook, block her etc? Is it to stop her from contacting you, or is it to stop yourself from contacting her?

Both actually. I don't trust myself not to give her a hard time and if her suicide attempt is genuine then I am just making it worse. I tried really hard this week to be affable and I was met with sarcasm and silence. That sucks too.

Lastly I know Ive been really harsh on you today. I hope I didnt go overboard. But I think its a good idea for you to think about this. You wont stop obsessing about this relationship until you start thinking about things in different ways. It doesnt matter if you are in contact with her or not, its all about your thoughts and perceptions. Your feelings and the r/s dynamic will change once you change your perspective.

This much I agree with. I am trying hard to think and act in different ways but my hurt, anger and sense of injustice keep kicking in. I have been on the receiving end of this woman's abuse for years, whatever my role in provoking her - which I do have some insight into from these boards.

I was thinking about the dynamic and there is something I find abhorent in this r/s becoming just another one that fizzled out. It meant too much to me. Part of me wants to scream at her that she has forgotten what love and passion are. The hardest thing of all is to realise that it meant very little to her in the great scheme of things whereas it meant everything to me. I cannot abide half measures and I'll be honest with you, I have fantasised about killing myself too over this r/s in order to 'show her.' So I guess that makes me as crazy as she is.

[Gemsforeyes]

Dear RF-

I am so sorry.  I now understand that this relationship has tormented you for years, although I've only "known" you for a brief time, and I've done my best to bring myself up to date on your struggle.  I am American, and there's no judgement placed simply because you and she are married, so let's Clear that out, OK?

Maybe during the first several years of your affair, you WERE amenable to any way she chose to treat you.  You HAD to be, or she would have cut you off.  You could NOT have shown anger, you had to always show your best behavior to her.  You were nothing but deeply in love.  The only obstacle to her was her husband (and your wife).  But there was no apparent BPD at that time, right?  Just two delighted lovers slipping away.

Then years go by and chinks in the armor begin to show... .you remain at her beckon call, but she is not at yours.  You appear more free to pursue this Affair because from what I gather, your wife is fiancially reliant on you.  I have read where you don't want to throw your wife out on the street. 

Your affair partner may be in a situation similar to your wife... .who knows?  But whatever the case, she seems to have had the upper hand in calling the shots for a long time now and you are rightfully angry and frustrated about this scenario.  When we engage in affairs, we have to accept that we are occasional "guests" in their lives, not main characters.  When they go on family vacations, we are not invited.  We WANT calls but have no room or right to be angry when there is silence.  That's an affair condition... .we're not a family member.  I have been through this with countless friends. Dear RF - these are conditional relationships with lots of rules.  Affair partners want a brief escape from their normal life.  The majority of affair partners don't leave the safety of their marriage, they NEED that stable home, or there may be children.

In a solid "normal" relationship, people are pretty equal partners, they take care of one another because they are free to do so and they WANT to do those things for their lover/partner.  Things are give and take.  But not in this situation.  And you know all this.  I'm not speaking a foreign language to you. 

And with that chink in your armor revealed, your honest feelings have emerged.  She has become used to your anger and antagonism toward her.  These are your real feelings and I want to validate them.  I'm sure you have received plenty of promises over the years.  I'm so very sorry.  By her expressing surprise that you were not being antagonistic, that's an acknowledgment that it's what she has come to expect over the years.  For your part, you believe she's manipulative and you seem distrustful and suspicious of most of what she says.  Does that tell you that this may no longer good for your soul?  The relationship is no longer paradise for either of you.  Having periodic sex is not the basis for a loving relationship. 

I have my views on Facebook.  So often on our boards, I see our friends citing the pain and anguish associated with blocking and unblocking from FB and WhatsApp (which I still am unfamiliar with).  This is so confusing for me.  I am not a big FB user.  Honestly, I don't care who has the time to vacuum and spring clean on the very first day of spring and every Tuesday thereafter.  I look at FB about once a month.  But perhaps for some people this is a lifeline.  When  my ex left me the first time, he unfriended me.  Big deal... .he called me two days later to come back and I noticed a month later that he unfriended me.  When he asked to be friends again, I said no.  I told him that he was likely to do this again, I'm not a kid, and I wouldn't allow this juvenile behavior.  Any picture I'll post, he can see on my phone.  There are just certain things I won't engage in.  And now that we're finally going to live separate lives, I don't want the ability to peek at his life.  It wouldn't be good for me. 

We HAVE to learn to NOT do things that are BAD for us, don't you think RF?  So you can say to your BPD, if you must... ."I'm sorry, I need to not be friends on FB because it's painful for me".  I don't want to find myself looking after you.  Maybe just put it on yourself instead of accusing her of trying to maintain control.  You can only monitor YOU.

I would never want to question someone's claim of a suicide attempt, so you know enough to be cautious with that one.  I think you probably know her pretty well, but it may be healthier for you at this point to NOT take on the role of her caretaker and/or therapist - just tell her you're glad she's ok and tell her you hope she's getting the help she deserves.  Especially when she says you were the cause of the attempt.  Please be careful not to absorb the accusation.  Who knows if she's being manipulative and vying for pity, but in these potentially dangerous situations, you just can't verbalize those thoughts.  When I was 18, I had a dear friend who spoke to me endlessly about his lost love (a friend of mine).  Then he finally went into his garage, turned on the motor and killed himself.  He never threatened, he just did it.  I never told her how much she hurt him... .

I know I've said some things that were outside the realm of your post here, but I feel they're important for you to see together. 

RF -  You can still hold compassion for a person and realize that you must move in a different direction.  You are not physically tethered to her although I know it sometimes feels like you are.  You are permitted to think about and put yourself first.   You are strong enough to make some changes, you have to believe that about yourself.  And please stop punishing yourself by assuming there is another suitor involved.  That simply cannot play a role in independent decisions about your life. 

I believe you're at a crossroads.  At the risk of simplifying things, the way I see it you have two primary choices.  1) release and free yourself from the anger toward her, stop questioning her and accept and be content with the relationship for what it is now, or 2) completely change your direction and quietly disengage - no dramatic scene required. Maybe look with fresh eyes at your wife.  Here's something you don't want to hear, my friend.  A woman DOES know when her man's heart and mind (and other body parts) are somewhere else.  Her natural reaction is to close off and shut down.  You've said this affair began shortly after your marriage.  Would you ever consider trying to love your wife?

I'll just ask one real thing of you, RF.  Just for today, See if you can  find one reason to feel "hope-FULL".  And the tomorrow, repeat.

Warmly and with love,
Gemsforeyes

[onelittleladybug]

I've had alot of reality checking on here. Am I not entitled to the same love and care as everybody else on these boards?

Of course you are. Sometimes love and care comes in the form of words that arent necessarily easy to hear.

So you don't think saying she will talk to me and then not doing it is a push/pull cycle? Everything she ever did in this r/s was push/pull. I lived with t on a daily basis and it was horrible.

Im saying two things: 1) Its a part of the general affair dynamic to not always be able to get in touch when promised, 2) You have said yourself that it surprises her when you are not hostile. I can tell you right now that Im not trying to talk to my pwBPD no matter how much I want to, because the last time I heard from him he told me to f*** off. Your anger plays a part in the lack of communication problem. Its a catch 22, she doesnt call you, you get angry, she is afraid of calling you because youre angry. Im also saying you are in a push/pull cycle yourself because you are inconsistent.

Remember - you can only change yourself. Shes not here to talk to. I cant say anything to her about her behavior. I cant help her. But hopefully I can help you.

I tried to walk away and she reeled me back in by contacting me three times. I was very consistent until she contacted me.

Stop focusing on what she is doing and start focusing more on yourself. Analyze your own actions, reactions, feelings. Try mindfulness, observing your feelings without judgment.

What this reconnection has illustrated to me is that I cannot balance my emotions while she is connected to me and going silent. It is too much for me. So, it's great that everybody is seeing it from her point of view. I am going crazy myself!

Then maybe you need to detach completely and not give in when she gets in touch. You cant do it though if a part of you wants it to lead to reconciliation. NC is not for reconciliation, its for healing. I would also highly recommend that you explain this to her gently and I would also offer that it would be temporary (but long enough for you to heal and get clarity and balance).

The only reason I reinstated her on FB was because she said she tried to kill herself. I don't know if I believe her. It's not as if pwBPD don't lie is it.

Does she have a history of lying to you? Specifically about things as serious as that? Then its normal for you to question the suicide attempt. If not I would absolutely take it seriously. The reason why she is being vague or wont tell you what specifically she did could mean she is embarrassed. We all want to retain some kind of dignity.

This isn't about getting me back. I know she doesn't want me back. It's about getting me under control. What better way to do that then say it was my fault.

BPD is all about abandonment and rejection. Keeping you around after losing interest doesnt fit the profile IMO. My guess is that its very hard to completely close the door. Its too final, too dramatic. NC is extreme.

I lost 2 friends when I was young through suicide... .and what they didn't do was constantly threaten it and then claim they attempted it but not give me any details about the alleged attempt. What they in fact did, was just do it.

I lost a schizophrenic ex boyfriend and a clinically depressed close relative. I lived with each at some times in my life but I dont assume I know about previous attempts before the successful ones. I know they got attention when they were successful. I dont blame myself. I dont think of my ex every day but every week and its been 2 decades and I still miss him and a big part of me wonders if he would still be alive if we had stayed together.

It is not healthy to want to spy on somebody's facebook when the r/s is over.

None of this is healthy. Thats why we are here.

They arent mentally ill out of spite to us. They are as someone here said recently "emotionally disabled". You cant expect or force a healthy behavior out of someone with a personality disorder. They have great moments, good moments, horrible moments and everything in between. A big part of the extreme challenge it is to be in a r/s with a person with this disorder is that there are wonderful times too. "Normal" times. I can only speak for myself I guess but the confusion that this brings with it is the hardest part for me.

It is not healthy not to enquire about somebody's health when you know they have been ill. This woman does not give a fig about my well being. I am sorry to disillusion you.

I dont know how you two have handled your affair when it comes to checking in about every day life. My experience is that smaller issues, like a brief sickness, arent on the radar. But you are also broken up. Im not going around checking in on my exes when they have a stomach bug.

What she cares about is having the control of knowing details about my life. I think it's called stalking.

Does she have a history of stalking?

This business about being afraid of my anger is nonsense. It is more JADE than anger.

Your words were "he even commented the other day that my message didn't sound like me because I wasn't being antagonistic". To me you sometimes come across as angry, especially when you are disappointed.

Having a r/s with a borderline is hard enough. Having a texting r/s with one is impossible.

I couldnt agree more. Its downright insane! There is one thin wall separating me and my pwBPD and he still wants to text and we still get in pointless fights that would probably never happen if it werent for texting. So frustrating. Im thinking about stopping texting altogether, but that would mean for everyone. Im pretty much over texting for anything other than ETA, OMW, and stuck in traffic. I want to start calling people and especially my pwBPD.

Btw wanting somebody to give you tlc isn't needy. It is human. Whether in a r/s or not. It's called love. Only somebody who has never lost a sibling at a young age would say it is needy. I feel sorry for you that you think that.

Its needy if you are using it as an excuse to contact. Ive lost plenty of people in my life dont worry  You are broken up, your expectations of emotional support cant be the same as before.

Well that suck for you too. I don't want a r/s with an emotional child. I'm sorry if that sounds harsh.

It does suck, but I choose it. As I choose many things in life that come with something that sucks.

I was thinking about the dynamic and there is something I find abhorent in this r/s becoming just another one that fizzled out. It meant too much to me.

I dont think there can ever be an ending that is appropriate or just to a great love affair. The only ending that feels right is for it to not end, to get better, to ride into the sunset together. Its incredibly painful to let go. If anger gets you through then use it for a while but try to not dwell on it. You can emerge out of this a new person. A phoenix.

Part of me wants to scream at her that she has forgotten what love and passion are.

Ah but those are two very different things. True love is unconditional. True love can detach, can send someone off with the best intentions at heart and wish them all the fulfillment in the world even if it means not being with them. Passion is another thing and it doesnt always go hand in hand with love. Sometimes it goes hand in hand with the opposite.

The hardest thing of all is to realise that it meant very little to her in the great scheme of things whereas it meant everything to me.

That part is your perception, your reading into things. You cant really know what you have been to her, especially now that emotions are running high and you two arent getting on the same page. There isnt enough trust in the r/s now to demonstrate this or share it. You keep saying this is 14 years of your life. Its also 14 years of her life. Some pieces of the picture are going to come together for you later. Some maybe never but with time you will be ok with it.

I cannot abide half measures and I'll be honest with you, I have fantasised about killing myself too over this r/s in order to 'show her.' So I guess that makes me as crazy as she is.

Im so sorry RF   Ive definitely been there before. I hope you know we are here for you and I would say its definitely time for you to shift your focus from her actions to your own thoughts and feelings.

Keep posting. We are here listening. I always read your posts, I dont always have time to respond but I do when I can. Remember this isnt a straight line, there are ups and downs. I hope you feel better soon.

[RomanticFool]

I am so sorry.  I now understand that this relationship has tormented you for years, although I've only "known" you for a brief time, and I've done my best to bring myself up to date on your struggle.  I am American, and there's no judgement placed simply because you and she are married, so let's Clear that out, OK?

Thanks Gemsforeyes. It's great to get a little support on here. Please don't think I am anti American. My father is American and I was born in the States even though I grew up in England.

Maybe during the first several years of your affair, you WERE amenable to any way she chose to treat you.  You HAD to be, or she would have cut you off.  You could NOT have shown anger, you had to always show your best behavior to her.  You were nothing but deeply in love.  The only obstacle to her was her husband (and your wife).  But there was no apparent BPD at that time, right?  Just two delighted lovers slipping away. Then years go by and chinks in the armor begin to show... .you remain at her beckon call, but she is not at yours.

Well, the first time around she always characterised me as 'aggressive.' Then on the recycle (the last 6 years) she told me initially that she found me 'challenging.' This is only ever in texts. When we meet face to face we never have a problem.

Yes, we were both deeply in love - or so I thought. I had no idea what BPD was. I just thought she was easily upset. I honestly don't think I have behaved any differently in this r/s from start to finish. It is her who has changed - we are now firmly into the devaluing stage.

You appear more free to pursue this Affair because from what I gather, your wife is fiancially reliant on you.  I have read where you don't want to throw your wife out on the street. 

My ex said that I am 'more cut out for an affair' which is nonsense. In fact I think she was better at it than me to begin with. I hated the fact she slept with her husband. She didn't have to deal with that in my case. She always said her time is more restricted because she works with her husband all day and he watches her (according to her). It was an impossible situation to begin with.

My wife is not financially dependent on me. She works and we have no children. She is very independent actually.

Your affair partner may be in a situation similar to your wife... .who knows?  But whatever the case, she seems to have had the upper hand in calling the shots for a long time now and you are rightfully angry and frustrated about this scenario.  When we engage in affairs, we have to accept that we are occasional "guests" in their lives, not main characters.  When they go on family vacations, we are not invited.  We WANT calls but have no room or right to be angry when there is silence.  That's an affair condition... .we're not a family member.  I have been through this with countless friends. Dear RF - these are conditional relationships with lots of rules.  Affair partners want a brief escape from their normal life.  The majority of affair partners don't leave the safety of their marriage, they NEED that stable home, or there may be children.

My ex has a trust fund her husband relies on her for money because their business doesn't make much money. She always told me that her husband is afraid of losing her due to finances only. She was always very clear that he doesn't love her or show her love. That was my job. Then the goalposts moved.

Yes, being a 'guest' in her life is intolerable when she told me in years gone by how much she loves me. She has changed. I have been consistent. Holidays are terrible times. In fact I think they are difficult for her too. I have often been berated when on holiday, even during the devaluing stage. She made a jibe at me for going to Vegas recently during the NC.

She has 3 grown up children, one of whom is not well (possible BPD) and lives at home. She did a very good job of leading me to believe there was more to this than just an affair. While she never said she would leave her husband, she did say I was the only thing keeping her sane for many years. Ironic then that she now says I drove her to suicide.

In a solid "normal" relationship, people are pretty equal partners, they take care of one another because they are free to do so and they WANT to do those things for their lover/partner.  Things are give and take.  But not in this situation.  And you know all this.  I'm not speaking a foreign language to you. 

Yes. This r/s has always been about what she needs. Even though she has attacked me for being selfish. Therein in the root of my frustration. Also there is tension because I refuse to be reduced to the role of caregiver without anything in return. I need more than that and for many years I probably got as much 'love' as she was able to give. I didn't appreciate at the time that she had BPD. I just thought she was flaky

And with that chink in your armor revealed, your honest feelings have emerged.  She has become used to your anger and antagonism toward her.  These are your real feelings and I want to validate them.  I'm sure you have received plenty of promises over the years.  I'm so very sorry.  By her expressing surprise that you were not being antagonistic, that's an acknowledgment that it's what she has come to expect over the years.  For your part, you believe she's manipulative and you seem distrustful and suspicious of most of what she says.  Does that tell you that this may no longer good for your soul?  The relationship is no longer paradise for either of you.  Having periodic sex is not the basis for a loving relationship.

This r/s is not good for my soul - or for her. Which is why I am so fed up with the whole thing. Perhaps I should have been more brutal when I walked away 12 weeks ago ie cut her off completely - but I couldn't do it.

My main frustration resides in the point that it was her who ruined it. She went on a year long drinking spree where she abused me constantly and I tried to go NC to survive it. After that I forgave her and took her back and for a while last year it was wonderful again. Then in December she started the ST and distancing again. At every juncture, it has been her who has destroyed this.

She nows says my behaviour is aggressive and antagonistic but it is no different to how it has always been. I do not doubt I could have been gentler with her, but I always called her out on the way she treated me. During the early days of love, she responded in a less vulnerable way, often attacking me back. To now say the way I have been has driven her to a suicide attempt is quite a leap. She gave as good as she got. There were a couple of times during arguments where she threatened to throw herself off a multi-storey car park. I always apologised and told her I loved her.

The trouble is, I don't really know her well enough to gauge where manipulation ends and the truth starts. She will never let me get close. The r/s was over when I walked away. It was her that made contact with me. I was on my NC road to freedom. Now here we are again. I still care deeply for her and am not able to resist if she shows me some kind of consideration.

I have my views on Facebook.  So often on our boards, I see our friends citing the pain and anguish associated with blocking and unblocking from FB and WhatsApp (which I still am unfamiliar with).  This is so confusing for me.  I am not a big FB user.  Honestly, I don't care who has the time to vacuum and spring clean on the very first day of spring and every Tuesday thereafter.  I look at FB about once a month.  But perhaps for some people this is a lifeline.  When  my ex left me the first time, he unfriended me.  Big deal... .he called me two days later to come back and I noticed a month later that he unfriended me.  When he asked to be friends again, I said no.  I told him that he was likely to do this again, I'm not a kid, and I wouldn't allow this juvenile behavior.  Any picture I'll post, he can see on my phone.  There are just certain things I won't engage in.  And now that we're finally going to live separate lives, I don't want the ability to peek at his life.  It wouldn't be good for me. 

The reason why FB is such an issue with me, is that she has often used it as 'proof' that I have a loving r/s with my wife and everything I have ever told her is nonsense. Just before I walked away, I posted a song for her on FB and she accused me of having an affair.

I have never lied to this woman about anything. So to have her use my openness against me in this manner was upsetting. Despite her never posting anything of consequence on her FB, she latches on to every little detail as proof of my mendacity. This is unbalanced and unfair. I know she wants to come back onto to FB to check up on me.

She also doesn't understand that I find it difficult seeing her photos of her family life on FB. I also felt at one point she was spying on my wife and I thought that was unfair on both of them. It is a complicated situation her, made tougher by her BPD. FB is a very difficult issue. WhatsApp is also difficult, as I can see how many times she comes online. It is a recipe to drive us both nuts. Even now, through her ST, I'll bet she is looking at my FB pages for proof that I don't care for her.

We HAVE to learn to NOT do things that are BAD for us, don't you think RF?  So you can say to your BPD, if you must... ."I'm sorry, I need to not be friends on FB because it's painful for me".  I don't want to find myself looking after you.  Maybe just put it on yourself instead of accusing her of trying to maintain control.  You can only monitor YOU.

I've said that to her many times. She interprets this as I don't feel she is worthy to be in my life.

I would never want to question someone's claim of a suicide attempt, so you know enough to be cautious with that one.  I think you probably know her pretty well, but it may be healthier for you at this point to NOT take on the role of her caretaker and/or therapist - just tell her you're glad she's ok and tell her you hope she's getting the help she deserves.  Especially when she says you were the cause of the attempt.  Please be careful not to absorb the accusation.  Who knows if she's being manipulative and vying for pity, but in these potentially dangerous situations, you just can't verbalize those thoughts.  When I was 18, I had a dear friend who spoke to me endlessly about his lost love (a friend of mine).  Then he finally went into his garage, turned on the motor and killed himself.  He never threatened, he just did it.  I never told her how much she hurt him... .

I don't blame myself for her suicide attempt - but I feel mightily aggrieved that she blames me. Last night I told her that if she wasn't going to talk to me, then I would go back to no contact. I haven't done this and I won't at the moment - for reasons discussed. I don't know whether she is genuine or not, but I do know that she has no interest in how her words and actions affect me. I have to look out for myself in this situation.

I have had 2 close friends kill themselves and as I said to ladybug, they just went out and did it. Her behaviour seems like attention seeking behaviour to me. She tells me she has tried it several times before. A psychiatrist told me once that people often succeed the second time. The first time is like a practise run. This woman has been suicidal for as long as I have known her. Now, I'm not saying it isn't genuine - I am saying it seems more like a cry for help than a genuine suicide attempt. So it made me go back on my boundaries and values to reinstate her on FB and now she has gone back to ST. That is why I am upset.

RF -  You can still hold compassion for a person and realize that you must move in a different direction.  You are not physically tethered to her although I know it sometimes feels like you are.  You are permitted to think about and put yourself first.   You are strong enough to make some changes, you have to believe that about yourself.  And please stop punishing yourself by assuming there is another suitor involved.  That simply cannot play a role in independent decisions about your life. 

I do have compassion for her - which is why I reinstated her on FB at great cost to myself emotionally.

Trust to me is everything. There being another suitor involved is the difference between caring for her unconditionally and not being made a fool of. If there is another person involved then it proves to me that she does not value my love. That kicks into my self worth. So, my obsession over whether she has somebody else or not is crucial to my actions. Perhaps less so after 12 weeks, as there can be no doubt that she doesn't care about me in the way I would want her to and it is also clear that there is no going back. I feel like I have moved on to some degree. There has certainly been some detachment. Had she left me alone, it would be more complete by now. Her contacting me has robbed me of the continuing benefits of detachment and dragged me back into the emotional mire.

It does feel like we are physically attached. I have never felt this way about anybody - ever.

I believe you're at a crossroads.  At the risk of simplifying things, the way I see it you have two primary choices.  1) release and free yourself from the anger toward her, stop questioning her and accept and be content with the relationship for what it is now, or 2) completely change your direction and quietly disengage - no dramatic scene required. Maybe look with fresh eyes at your wife.  Here's something you don't want to hear, my friend.  A woman DOES know when her man's heart and mind (and other body parts) are somewhere else.  Her natural reaction is to close off and shut down.  You've said this affair began shortly after your marriage.  Would you ever consider trying to love your wife?

This is the nub of everything. I have been at a crossroads for 12 weeks. Let's examine what has happened in those 12 weeks. She contacted me once after 5 weeks, saying 'thinking of you.' I tried to talk to her about that message and she ran away. I went back to NC. Then after 8 weeks she contacted me over the terror attacks. I had to reply then and we did the whole dance of who did what to whom. Then she contacted me on my birthday in Vegas. Birthdays seem very important to her. I told her then to leave me alone unless she wanted to get back together. I don't know when she tried to kill herself, which is what I am trying to ascertain. To say that she blames me for her attempt suggests that she did it because of my attempts to distance myself. Which means, despite further ST now, she is never going to let me go. My anger is a direct result of her push/pull behaviour towards me. She won't let me quietly disengage. She is going to make it as difficult as possible.

I do love my wife, but I don't think we are interested in each other sexually. We haven't had sex in 8 years, where do you begin with that? My original plan was to distance myself from the ex and try to reengage with my wife, but I don't feel the same passion for my wife as I do for the ex. I'm afraid the chemistry with the ex was dynamite. In fact my libido feels quite dead at the moment and it is easier to have that than the terrible pain I was feeling over the ex. I may be done with passionate love now. It hurts too much.

Thank you for taking the time to reply. Your post has been a real tonic.

[Skip]

She recently told me she had made a suicide attempt and it was my fault. She also told me that taking her off Facebook was cruel and heartless.

What do you think this most likely means... .

1) She loves you so much that the thought of you breaking up and her being with her husband made life unbearable.

2) She has a new exciting affair partner, but needs to keep you as a backup, so she faked a suicide to be sure you were still "on the line" should she need another man in addition to her husband and her affair partner?

3) She is struggling with the core shame of BPD and this affair brings both shame (she is deceiving her husband and son) and emotional manipulation (silent treatment, shaming, accusations of infidelity from an affair partner, anger, etc.) and she can't handle it?

Up to this point, your focus has been on "how dare she accuse me"... .which is understandable. But that was days ago, and let's set that aside for a minute.

She clearly has emotional struggles. There is clearly deep depression going on and something happened that day to precipitate the ultimate act of hopelessness. Now, clearly, people (professional and family) have come around her at this time in a very significant way... ."Talk to us." "Explain what you are feeling."  "Know that we love you."

And there is you. You manipulating ___. Who else are you sleeping with? I granted you Facebook access (at great cost to me) and it was conditioned on you talking to me - resolving my struggles with this relationship not meeting my needs - you screwed me over again. You may not be saying these exact words today - but you have said them a lot in the last few weeks and you are going to continue to say them and push pull until she yields. This is what is on your mind and she knows you.

On another note - if you were her psychiatrist and listening to her talk about his after she has tried to kill herself, what advice would you give her regarding the affair? What advice will anyone she confides in give her.

Affairs are diversions, fantasies, escapes. For you. And for her. When they become burdens, demanding, tension filled they become very destructive in our lives. As we've talked before, once one of the spouses connects that dots, all hell is going to break loose in both marriages.

Now I repeat, the only reason I reinstated her on FB was out of compassion. But all the while in the back of my mind is this feeling that I am being manipulated and it is driving me crazy. And if I had a pound for every time she threatened to walk away in the past, I would be a rich man.

Many have said to you already... .compassion is to let this be on her terms. She is not asking for much - just that you don't berate her, reject her, place demands on her. She wants you to let go with grace. Maybe even be her confidant at some time in the future when she needs someone to talk to or give her validation.

You don't want that. That's where this gets hard. But don't get confused. Her wanting to dial it back is a statement that it is not working for her - not that she is attacking you or trying to hurt you. Is she betraying the affair? Even that is not clear.

The challenge for you is to let go without berating her, and rejecting her (be an ex-romantic partner friend thingy). She seems to be asking for this.

Will walking gracefully away from a 14 year affair be easy? No. Should you be her confidant in the future and her occasional source of validation when she needs it? Probably not - you are wanting much more and this has been the source of conflict for years.

Will she eventually reach out for you to be a confidant and her occasional source of validation when she needs it - probably. It's important when it happens to see it for what it is... .and not what you have hoped it would or could be.

It's really hard, RF. I know that under all this anger and attempt to control, your heart is heavy with loss.

To your original question: Should I pull the plug on this?

If it means letting her get on with her life/recovery... .yes. If it means accepting what she is saying... .yes. 

You want more from the affair than she has to give. Is it fair? Fairness is often not part of an affair - every day of this affair, people have not been treated fairly. The "who is not being treated fairly" is just shifting.

[RomanticFool]

What do you think this most likely means... .

1) She loves you so much that the thought of you breaking up and her being with her husband made life unbearable.

2) She has a new exciting affair partner, but needs to keep you as a backup, so she faked a suicide to be sure you were still "on the line" should she need another man in addition to her husband and her affair partner?

3) She is struggling with the core shame of BPD and this affair brings both shame (she is deceiving her husband and son) and emotional manipulation (silent treatment, shaming, accusations of infidelity from an affair partner, anger, etc.) and she can't handle it?

For a start I have never given her ST. I broke off the r/s due to her ST. Those are two completely different things. You constantly paint her as the reasonable party. She has been anything but. You paint me as the stronger person emotionally. I would take issue with that also. The compulsion to contact her is overwhelming. Mostly what i think these days is that she should leave me alone for both of our sakes and I'll do likewise.

In answer to your question: On a good day 3 (but I refute that I ever gave her ST or shaming - except in response to her doing it to me. Mostly what I tried to do was get her to talk). On a bad day 2. On other days 1. I think there is a distinct possibility that when I walked away from the r/s she was left with her husband - I had taken the third leg of the stool away - and this could have been overwhelming. Not that she was invested in me in terms of seeing me, indeed she told me this was no longer on the cards, but perhaps having me at the end of the phone when it suited her was a comfort. Who knows? I don't.

How I feel about the above fluctuates on a daily basis. She led me to believe during the affair that 1 was a distinct possibility. I have taken this so badly because I became very attached to her based on things she told me and experiences we had together.

If she is experiencing shame and suffering at my hands as you claim, then why does she keep coming back merely to run away again and to shame me by claiming I am responsible for her suicide attempt. Have you any idea what that has done to my emotional state? You ask me why I am not emotionally terrified. It goes beyond terror. My compulsion to try to put this right was partly behind the recent contact with her. Then when the ST starts up again, it brings out the emotion in me.

Up to this point, your focus has been on "how dare she accuse me"... .which is understandable. But that was days ago, and let's set that aside for a minute.

She clearly has emotional struggles. There is clearly deep depression going on and something happened that day to precipitate the ultimate act of hopelessness. Now, clearly, people (professional and family) have come around her at this time in a very significant way... ."Talk to us." "Explain what you are feeling."  "Know that we love you."

That is what I have tried to do myself. Then when she ignores me or gets sarcastic at my attempts to try a different tack, it just makes me realise how little she really cares about me. I also think that if she has such contempt for me then just leave me the hell alone. I tried to walk away from this with some dignity. She wouldn't allow it and then laid a suicide attempt on me.

And there is you. You manipulating ___. Who else are you sleeping with? I granted you Facebook access (at great cost to me) and it was conditioned on you talking to me - resolving my struggles with this relationship not meeting my needs - you screwed me over again. You may not be saying these exact words today - but you have said them a lot in the last few weeks and you are going to continue to say them and push pull until she yields. This is what is on your mind and she knows you.

Come on! I have never called her a manipulating ___ - if that's what she hears then she isn't listening. I am not trying to get her to yield to anything other than to have dialogue. I have given up on having a r/s with her. I put her on FB out of compassion and if she doesn't want to talk to me then what is the point of any of it? The way I see it now is that I'll be doing her a favour in cutting her off if the things I am saying are making her suicidal. Except - her suicide bid was during a period of NC from me. So I can't quite see how I have driven her to this - which were her words to me. I'm damned if I do, damned if I don't, aren't I.

On another note - if you were her psychiatrist and listening to her talk about his after she has tried to kill herself, what advice would you give her regarding the affair? What advice will anyone she confides in give her.

I doubt if she's ever said word 1 about me to anybody, including her psychiatrist. When she came out of rehab she told me that all she ever spoke about in there was her son. I don't think I feature that prominently in her life, which is why I am suspicious about her assertion that I drove her to it. I think she said that on a particular day that she was angry. And for the record that is a wicked thing to say to anybody.

Affairs are diversions, fantasies, escapes. For you. And for her. When they become burdens, demanding, tension filled they become very destructive in our lives. As we've talked before, once one of the spouses connects that dots, all hell is going to break loose in both marriages.

For me this was never just a diversion. She was everything to me. I suppose it is just that I suffer when I have been so deceptive to my wife. As I have also told you time and again, her husband has had affairs of his own - this affair was never going to affect her marriage. On the one hand she claims that he doesn't care about her and what she does. On the other hand she says that he watches her like a hawk because she is his meal ticket. Those are things she has told me consistently. I'll let you decide where the truth lies because I have no idea. My wife has no clue and never will have as it is over now. I am not blase or full of bravado around this, I am just telling you the facts.

Many have said to you already... .compassion is to let this be on her terms. She is not asking for much - just that you don't berate her, reject her, place demands on her. She wants you to let go with grace. Maybe even be her confidant at some time in the future when she needs someone to talk to or give her validation.

If you don't think that is asking for much, then you don't believe what I have told you about her being the love of my life. If she wanted to let me go with grace she would not have contacted me. I am never going to be her confidant because I am currently picking up the pieces of my broken heart. I am sorry I can't give her validation after the abuse I have suffered at her hands, but I am not a saint.

You don't want that. That's where this gets hard. But don't get confused. Her wanting to dial it back is a statement that it is not working for her - not that she is attacking you or trying to hurt you. Is she betraying the affair? Even that is not clear.

Not sure what you mean by dial it back... .She betrayed the affair when she spent a year drinking and abusing me. Then she was a gig with another man and taunting me from the venue. If that is not betrayal then I don't know what is. Even then I forgave her and let her back into my life. Then I had to endure further ST and her blocking me on her phone and disappearing. That is why I walked away - against every desire I had in my body. I did it for my won sanity. Ironic then that we are in this mess.

The challenge for you is to let go without berating her, and rejecting her (be an ex-romantic partner friend thingy). She seems to be asking for this.

She will take any attempt by me to walk away with dignity as rejection - when in reality she is actually rejecting me. And I have my own abandonment issues. Again, I take issue with your assertion (in a previous post) that I am the emotionally stronger party. I was in despair during the year she went out drinking and have been during this break up. She has no idea or interest in that at all. So I must look after myself.

Will walking gracefully away from a 14 year affair be easy? No. Should you be her confidant in the future and her occasional source of validation when she needs it? Probably not - you are wanting much more and this has been the source of conflict for years.

No chance of that whatsoever. It would crush me. I am crushed by this whole sorry mess.

Will she eventually reach out for you to be a confidant and her occasional source of validation when she needs it - probably. It's important when it happens to see it for what it is... .and not what you have hoped it would or could be.

It's really hard, RF. I know that under all this anger and attempt to control, your heart is heavy with loss.

To your original question: Should I pull the plug on this?

If it means letting her get on with her life/recovery... .yes. If it means accepting what she is saying... .yes.  

You want more from the affair than she has to give. Is it fair? Fairness is often not part of an affair - every day of this affair, people have not been treated fairly. The "who is not being treated fairly" is just shifting.

I pulled the plug on FB.

[RomanticFool]

There has been another development which I think is very revealing. I would never normally post something of such a personal nature, but I think this is crucial to everything we have discussed over the last 12 weeks. This is a conversation tonight between myself and my pwBPD.

Her: If you're trying to get me to trust you again you have done the one thing I asked you not to and therefore I leave you to your devices.

Me: I never gave you cause not to trust me. I have been as constant since the first day we met. I am not trying to get you to do anything other than talk. If you don't want to talk then I will also leave you to your devices. Since you say that I drove you to try to take your own life, you are no doubt better off without me in your life. I never rejected you. You just made it impossible by your silent treatment. The one thing you knew drove me nuts. Contrary to what you think I am not full of anger towards you. I have nothing but love for you in my heart.

Her: As long as I play ball eh? Not good enough to acknowledged as even an acquaintance

Me: It's not about playing ball. You accused me of driving you to suicide. I think you at least owe me an explanation. If FB is so important to you then I will reinstate you. But if you think that has anything to do with real life you are mistaken. You are way more to me than an acquaintance as you know full well. I wonder if you can say the same about me?

Her: You know very well that being on your FB list is hugely symbolic for me but I'm struck off it every other day and I find that very hurtful but it mirrors the way you consider me.

Me: Not at all. The sad truth is, it is the only way I can get you to talk to me. I will reinstate you.

Her: How kind.

Me: It seems to be the only thing you care about regarding me. If you truly cared about me you'd perhaps ask yourself what kind of toll the last 6 years have had on my mental health. But instead you say I drive you to suicide.
If you were in my shoes how would you react to that?

Her: I warned you enough times that your bullying would drive me insane and when I paid the price you seemed quite indignant. My mental health is shot to pieces because you will not accept my limitations.

Me: Bullying? One of the reasons I left you alone is because you kept accusing me of aggression. Then YOU contacted me. I was concerned for you but how could I have driven you to suicide when we weren't speaking?  Indeed after 5 weeks you told me how much better you felt for the lack of contact from me. So how can I be responsible for that? You didn't see where your year of drinking and abuse took me. I never laid that at your door. I accept your limitations. What I wouldn't accept is being ignored for 3 days here, 6 days there and then being accused of having an affair and blocked. You have a very finger pointing mentality towards me and it is not fair. I am the man who has loved you and put up with years of crap. Tell yourself that next time you feel angry at me.

Her: How can you reconcile that statement with your actions? Constantly suspicious always projecting the worse possible scenario and actively excluding me from your inner circle as a way of control over me.

Me: You blocked me and accused me of an affair. Do you have amnesia when it comes to your own actions? Am I part of your inner circle? No. You talk to me when you feel like it. Your family are what is important to you. I asked you what happened regarding the suicide but you won't tell me.

Her: I rarely talk to anyone - my silence is not exclusive to you. I am sinking fast.

Me: Then talk to me. I am here. I always will be.

Her: That is patently not the truth

Me: Then who are you talking to now?

Her: I talk to my sponsor and reply to folks from AA.

Me: I mean we are talking now. If you think I ever wanted to hurt you then you don't know me.  Our entire relationship has been via texting and that makes things difficult. We never argue face to face. That is the person I am.

Her: You said earlier that you did things that you know to be hurtful to get a reaction.

Me: No I didn't say that. I said if I cut you off FB I know you will talk to me. All I want is to talk to you. I'm not a monster.

Her: Prove it.

Me: Ok. Tell me what happened with you. When did you try to kill yourself? And why?

Her: Last month because I realised that drinking would make nothing feel better and I had no other option but to leave the pain.

Me: So why did you say I drove you to it?

Her: Because I was alone

Me: I'm sorry that you felt that way. I truly am. I only walked away because you said we couldn't see each other.

Her: How did you expect me to feel?

Me: I interpreted that as you had had enough of me. You kept distancing yourself. I thought you had enough of me. I was in bits.

Her: So I noticed.

Me: Noticed what?

Her: In bits in Las Vegas and Amsterdam.

Me: Vegas was my birthday. I was alone in Amsterdam. I went to try to deal with my feelings around us. Then I got your message saying your suicide attempt was my fault as I lay in bed with food poisoning. Nice touch. I have been miserable these last 12 weeks. Why didn't you stop me walking away?

Her: Like I knew - I know nothing about your life since I've been downgraded (ie cut off FB). I couldn't promise anything at that time. I didn't know what was going to be possible once my husband found out.

Me: What has happened around that?

Her: Elephant in the room but I've not been anywhere to make the situation worse.

Me: Ok. I thought you just wanted rid of me. You never even said you missed me. All the blocking and distancing just felt like you wanted out. So I walked before I was pushed.

Her: I always miss the kind version of you - never the monster.

Me: The monster is in your head. If I was a monster you'd see it when we met. All you had to say was I love and miss
you.

Her: I won't say it until I trust you again. No the monster is out there, waiting for me to slip up.

Me: You on the other hand abused me for a year when drinking. Where's my apology for that? That was part of me walking away too. Are you really going to blame me for everything? The monster is in your head. I never gave you cause not to trust me. I've done nothing but love you but the silences were killing me.

Her: I have to go now - sorry.

Me: Ok one last thing. If you ever feel suicidal - talk to me. I am here for you. I love you. You are not alone.

(She left the conversation without reply)

[Gemsforeyes]

(Sorry, my friend, I got a bit carried away with my response and couldn't put this away for later because I'm on this iPad, please forgive... .xo)

Dear RF-

No one can tell us How we're supposed to feel.  She can't tell you and you can't tell her.  We just can't be talked INTO our feelings.  But we CAN be talked out of them, or at least AWAY from them. 

It hits me hard that over the course of this emotional turmoil and chaos, both of you have used words that pushed this affair away from good emotions.  From what I see, This no longer feels good.  At all.  To either of you.  The lack of trust between you has zero to do with any third parties on either side.  That would be too simple an explanation.  Maybe you don't trust one another to care for one another's feelings and hearts any longer. That's what I saw in this exchange.  You were both trying to "one-up" on the feelings thing.  And well, you already know that I find Facebook to be so childish, but I guess I have to acknowledge that to some people it seems to mean everything... .but I'd still say in the long run, your wife is more important when it comes to Facebook.  You said that yourself. 

This does bring something up for me.  I'm sure it has, but I need to say it anyway (stream of consciousness thing).  Has it occurred to you, I mean REALLY occurred to you, that this ex does not want to slip out of your vision quite long enough for you to focus on your wife?  Just a thought... .I mean you have laid yourself at her feet, you said you'll be hers "forever", and thus far you've shown you will, regardless of her treatment of you.  Add to that strong BPD traits. That's what showed in the conversation.

We don't know what she's trying to do in terms of wrestling with this relationship and its impact on her.  But I do feel that it's harming you, and I care about that. 

Obviously we have all had our deep struggles or we would not be on this board.  Before my involvement with my ex BPD boyfriend, I had rarely argued with any lovers, or my former husband of 19 years.  Finally with this boyfriend, I had to start standing up for myself.  And it became exhausting.  I was battling lies and his monsters.  It was killing my soul.  If I stayed, part of me would become him and I knew it.  If you have taken on some of your ex's traits for pure survival purposes, have you brought these behaviors to your wife?  When you married, you were not involved with your lover.  And then you were.  Your wife didn't change... .you likely did.  Sorry... .

Please RF, look only at yourself.  You're going to have to be the person who ends this affair.  She says something to the effect of you have to prove she can "trust you" again.  That's another move of the goal posts, so to speak.  You understand, if you read other members' posts, that the trust never comes, the goal post always shifts... .we're chasing our own shadows.  I don't want to hurt you.  And I want you to stop punishing yourself.

We need to live our own lives.  With people who behave as if they WANT and CAN to be in our lives.  Not only on the telephone, or texting or stalking Facebook.  That's not IN our lives.   

My lover,  My perfect missing man... .when he wasn't screaming obscenities at me he told me everyday how much he loved me.  I remember looking at my uBPD ex-boyfriend, so handsome napping on the couch, and thinking, MY GOD, He is killing me.  That was the day I really knew.

She may not be screaming at you, but it doesn't have to be loud to hurt.  In your case, it's the silence that is stealing your life.  And in this recent exchange of words, I can see no kindness in that "gift".

Warmly and with love,
Gemsforeyes

[RomanticFool]

Hi Gems,

Dear RF-

No one can tell us How we're supposed to feel.  She can't tell you and you can't tell her.  We just can't be talked INTO our feelings.  But we CAN be talked out of them, or at least AWAY from them.  

I have tried to talk myself out of my feelings for her and there has been some detachment.

It hits me hard that over the course of this emotional turmoil and chaos, both of you have used words that pushed this affair away from good emotions.  From what I see, This no longer feels good.  At all.  To either of you.  The lack of trust between you has zero to do with any third parties on either side.  That would be too simple an explanation.  Maybe you don't trust one another to care for one another's feelings and hearts any longer. That's what I saw in this exchange.  You were both trying to "one-up" on the feelings thing.  And well, you already know that I find Facebook to be so childish, but I guess I have to acknowledge that to some people it seems to mean everything... .but I'd still say in the long run, your wife is more important when it comes to Facebook.  You said that yourself.  

I agree that it no longer feels good. In truth it hasn't for some time. I walked away from somebody I was crazy about 3 months ago, it must have been pretty bad in order for me to do that. But now she tells me she has made a suicide attempt and I must take it seriously. She certainly doesn't trust me to care for her feelings and what she is saying in our exchange is that she tried to take her own life because I abandoned her. Apart from being extremely manipulative, it is also a feature of her BPD. I have made heartfelt statements on here about how much I love this woman. So the loving thing to do is to let go of everything. I shouldn't have her on my FB really but since it means so much to her, I haven't got the heart to say no.

She hasn't contacted me since I reinstated her this morning. It is ironic how she accuses me of manipulation and control during our discussion and yet that is precisely what she is doing around FB. I messaged her this morning to check on her health (she said she was 'sinking fast' last night). I said, 'How are you?' She replied, 'Waiting for you to reinstate me on FB.' That is the only thing she has said to me all day. But that's ok. She is alive and well and I no longer feel that we are in a r/s. Perhaps having her on my FB serves a purpose for us both. She can keep an eye on me and I don't need to feel that she is completely out of my life - even though psychologically she is.

I do think our interaction was all about manipulation. I have acquiesced to her FB demand (which is really what it is) not to get back with her, but because she is unwell. I hope everybody can see now why I have doubted this suicide attempt. In my view this is a woman who is a master at manipulation and has an inability to see anything from my point of view. It has been suggested to me on here that I need to be more empathic towards her and understand things from her point of view, no matter what she does to me. As I have said in previous posts, the only way I can do that is by detaching. She says FB is symbolic for her - I am not really sure what it is symbolic of - but I think it is really just a way for her to keep an eye on me and use it against me (as evidence that I have been lying to her all along and am really close to my wife).

This does bring something up for me.  I'm sure it has, but I need to say it anyway (stream of consciousness thing).  Has it occurred to you, I mean REALLY occurred to you, that this ex does not want to slip out of your vision quite long enough for you to focus on your wife?  Just a thought... .I mean you have laid yourself at her feet, you said you'll be hers "forever", and thus far you've shown you will, regardless of her treatment of you.  Add to that strong BPD traits. That's what showed in the conversation.

Yes. I have been saying all along that she wants to be on FB to keep an eye on me and the r/s with my wife. She is so committed to this that she blamed her suicide attempt on my having abandoned her. I have a very strong feeling that had I kept her on FB she would not have tried to kill herself. That is how important FB seems to be to her.

The ridiculousness of this situation is I am clearly completed devalued by her (she referred to me as a monster - using my own word against me) and still expects to be reinstated on FB. Before I came on this site I would have told her in no uncertain terms where to go. But she is a sick woman. If the suicide attempt is genuine and I will accept that it is, then I am willing to give her the comfort of being on FB without wanting anything in return.

We don't know what she's trying to do in terms of wrestling with this relationship and its impact on her.  But I do feel that it's harming you, and I care about that.  

Thank you. It is bothering me having reinstated her on FB and then have her not talk to me. But it would bother me alot more if she killed herself. So I will allow it.

Obviously we have all had our deep struggles or we would not be on this board.  Before my involvement with my ex BPD boyfriend, I had rarely argued with any lovers, or my former husband of 19 years.  Finally with this boyfriend, I had to start standing up for myself.  And it became exhausting.  I was battling lies and his monsters.  It was killing my soul.  If I stayed, part of me would become him and I knew it.  If you have taken on some of your ex's traits for pure survival purposes, have you brought these behaviors to your wife?  When you married, you were not involved with your lover.  And then you were.  Your wife didn't change... .you likely did.  Sorry... .

No, I haven't taken on her traits. In fact when I first met her, we were equally as difficult with each other at times. She told me she found me a challenge and I liked what I then saw as her rebellious nature. I kind of ignore her provocative language (when I'm in a good space) because I actually find it quintessentially her. She has no self awareness to see that everything she accusing me of (ie manipulation, verbal aggression, self-centredness, lack of empathy, making me jump through hoops - which is actually her expression for what I supposedly do to her) she is doing herself. In her case I now put it down to the BPD. If we accept that I am less unwell than she is, perhaps I can overlook her behaviour towards me in favour of the bigger picture - perhaps feeling connected to my FB will make her feel less alone.

I think the way that I have changed since I got married is that for a time I felt extremely happy to have an outlet for intimacy - which I felt at the time made me a better person to be around. Then when it started to go wrong with the affair partner, I became depressed. I cannot deny it has affected my marriage but my wife doesn't on the face of it seem in any way affected by it. I have never seen her happier. We had a nice weekend picnicking and being outdoors, which she loves. Given the fact that she doesn't require intimacy from me (we sleep in separate rooms) her hobbies and other activities seem to make her happy. For my part, I feel much less messed up since the detachment from the ex.

Please RF, look only at yourself.  You're going to have to be the person who ends this affair.  She says something to the effect of you have to prove she can "trust you" again.  That's another move of the goal posts, so to speak.  You understand, if you read other members' posts, that the trust never comes, the goal post always shifts... .we're chasing our own shadows.  I don't want to hurt you.  And I want you to stop punishing yourself.

I have accepted that this r/s is over. What I did yesterday was out of compassion.I have no hope of reconciliation with her - at this moment I really don't want anything to do with her. She has painted me black and is treating me like sh*t, which is the reason I walked away in the first place. But I must come back to the suicide attempt. Despite making me jump through hoops, I have to bear in mind that she told me she tried to kill herself because she was along - the implication being that I abandoned her - despite the fact that she won't talk to me. At least if I keep her connected to FB she can't accuse me of that again.

We need to live our own lives.  With people who behave as if they WANT and CAN to be in our lives.  Not only on the telephone, or texting or stalking Facebook.  That's not IN our lives.  

I totally agree with you. I have been saying this on here from day one. I have been ridiculed and had scorn poured on my interpretation of her actions, but I do think what she is doing is stalking me. I'm the one who has known her for 14 years and I know what she is like as a person. I have alot of first hand experience of her manipulation. When we are a little further down the road, I will address this with her but I really just want to make sure she is alright at the moment. I cannot say that she is lying about the suicide attempt, so I must take it seriously.

My lover,  My perfect missing man... .when he wasn't screaming obscenities at me he told me everyday how much he loved me.  I remember looking at my uBPD ex-boyfriend, so handsome napping on the couch, and thinking, MY GOD, He is killing me.  That was the day I really knew.

Yes, 3 months ago I realised that this r/s was killing me - and maybe literally killing her. The mistake I made was in not trying to let go with love. However, as we can see from my conversation with her, she has no intention of letting me go. What she is doing is demanding access to my FB while I am still painted black. This is actually outrageous behaviour but so long as I know it, then it isn't manipulation because I am choosing to have her on there for her mental health.

She may not be screaming at you, but it doesn't have to be loud to hurt.  In your case, it's the silence that is stealing your life.  And in this recent exchange of words, I can see no kindness in that "gift".

That has been the dynamic for 14 years on and off. It is the reason why I came on this site in the first place. Due to the strength of my own communication with her, I've had to look at my own behaviour. But whatever tools I get for dealing with a pwBPD in order to make life easier for her, it doesn't alter the fact that I have been and still am the victim of manipulation and abuse at her hands. However, I am feeling better about dealing with her in a more empathic way. This will help me deal with what lies ahead in a way that will be better for me and one which hopefully will not drive her to make further suicide attempts.

[Skip]

You constantly paint her as the reasonable party. She has been anything but. You paint me as the stronger person emotionally. I would take issue with that also.

You may be right, RF. Speaking frankly and compassionately, you are driven by your emotions (over logic) and you struggle to see the point of view of your affair partner (e.g., when she said she attempted suicide you felt that it was to cover up another affair partner) and your wife (e.g., she would rather not know about the relationship and have you continue in the affair, than end the marriage). That is an empathy issue. You posts have vacillated from "shes always been the love of my life" to "the relationship is torturous and I can't trust her". I'm out. I'm in. I'm out. Now I'm in (her fault). I'm blocking her/unblocking/reblocking. I'm paraphrasing, of course.

All this is self sabotaging. You obviously want to stay in the affair, but you chop her down when she reaches out to you because she isn't willing to take more time away from her family to give you more (e.g., connection, sex, companionship, etc.). It makes no sense, its distorted reasoning. You know this because you often regret what you have done after the fact.

What I see in this last conversation is more of the same - you're not listening to her or the members here (300+ responses to you) - you are holding on hard to the same destructive emotional path. You're conversation is a cycle of conflict. And as you have pointed out, the cycle has been going on for a long time. The two of you are speak, but neither is listening. The more you say, the less you listen.

It's not working for you, at all. You have a catastrophic marriage, over-layered with and a high conflict affair that you don't know if you love or hate. One partner has emotionally shut down. The other attempted suicide. You even have conflict here with your membership.

I think you have to answer the most basic question. Are you looking for help to change? Do you want to get off the roller coaster that you are driving. Or, are you mostly looking for validation of your emotions/support as things run their course?

It will help members help you better.

[RomanticFool]

Speaking frankly and compassionately, you are driven by your emotions (over logic) and you struggle to see the point of view of your affair partner

I am driven by my emotions. I struggle to see her point of view because she has proven herself to be manipulative at times. It is a trust issue.

(e.g., when she said she attempted suicide you felt that it was to cover up another affair partner)

Do you believe everything a pwBPD says? I'm sorry to sound callous but I am still not sure she is telling me the truth. If you look at the conversation I posted, it smacks of her manipulation and control all the way through.

and your wife (e.g., she would rather not know about the relationship and have you continue in the affair, than end the marriage). That is an empathy issue.

I think it is also a practical issue. Many people are not keen to break up their marriages for a variety of reasons when perhaps they should. I don't see that equals a lack of empathy on my part. Now that the affair is clearly over, perhaps things will improve with my wife.

You posts have vacillated from "shes always been the love of my life" to "the relationship is torturous and I can't trust her". I'm out. I'm in. I'm blocking her/unblocking/reblocking. I'm paraphrasing, of course.

I agree. I have never wavered in my love for her but it has been torturous too. The two things are not mutually exclusive. The woman has driven me nuts, just as I have done to her. That doesn't mean that I don't love her.

You tend to be self-sabotaging, you obviously want to stay in the affair, but you chop her down when she reaches out to you because she isn't willing to take more time away from her family to give you more (e.g., connection, sex, companionship, etc.). It makes no sense, its distorted reasoning. You know this because you often regret what you have done after the fact.

I actually don't want to stay in the affair. She has devalued me and painted me black. I can't be in a r/s with somebody who abuses me and that is what she is doing.  

She is currently giving me nothing but ultimatums and hurdles to jump over. I have responded by reinstating her on FB against my instincts. I think that shows very good reasoning because I am doing it for her sense of well being. If that's not compassion then I don't know what is.

I have regretted the things I have said to her at times, which is why I am trying to do things differently now. Please note that she blames me for everything and will never accept any responsibility for any of her actions.

What I see in this last conversation is more of the same - you're not listening to her or the members here (300+ responses to you) - you are holding on hard to the same destructive emotional path. You're conversation is a cycle of conflict. And as you have pointed out, the cycle has been going on for a long time. The two of you are speak, but neither is listening. The more you say, the less you listen.

I have listened a great deal to the members on here and to her. But I am not a doormat and I am not going to allow her to manipulate me without pointing out her own behaviour to her. I listened to her on the major point, which is that she tried to take her own life because she felt alone. The rest is just verbal sparring.

You must give me credit for knowing something about this woman. She has never tried to kill herself when I have been in contact with her. She finds me a comfort in her life - or at least did until the r/s went bad. It appears that she tried to kill herself because she felt abandoned. In the post where you gave me 3 options as to why she may have tried to kill herself, it actually does seem to be because she felt abandoned by me. Unless you think she is lying about that? So my judgment around this woman has not been as bad as you are saying. I hope you will listen to what gemsforeyes has had to say to me too - it is a very different perspective from yours.

It's not working for you, at all. You have a catastrophic marriage, over layered with and a high conflict affair. One partner has emotionally shut down. The other attempted suicide. You even have conflict here with your membership.

My marriage is devoid of intimacy that is not a catastrophe. That is the same as millions of people all over the world.

In fact I would say the affair is catastrophic rather than my marriage - which is why I tried to walk away 3 months ago. I have conflict here when people say provocative things - such as judging me about being married and then being provocative towards me about it. If you sat opposite me in a room you would find me a very agreeable fellow, but I am not prepared to be judged unfairly by people who don't know me and base their opinions on my posts. If you want a 'yes' man who rolls over and blindly accepts everything that people say without question, then you are talking to the wrong person, my friend.

I have found some people on this site to be lacking in empathy towards me at times. Having said that, I think people are coming from a place of trying to help and so I have persevered because I have much to learn about BPD and my reactions to it.

I think you have to answer the most basic question. Are you looking for help to change? Are you looking for validation of your emotions?

When I first came on here I was looking for support for an extremely painful break up. All of the members have validated each other's emotions. However, my situation has quite literally become a matter of life and death. So the idea that I don't listen is actually quite wrong. I have taken on board much of what has been said to me and am utilising it in dealing with my ex. Twelve weeks ago I would not have allowed her access to my FB while being painted black. Today I did. How is that for empathy and progress.

By the way, I feel that I also need to bring up that the last time I was blocked from using this site, after the moderators took action against me but not the people who had judged me. I was blocked just before my ex told me that she tried to commit suicide. I needed the support of this site and so rather than run the gauntlet of dealing with the judgement from certain people about being in an affair, I came back on under an assumed name. This could have been catastrophic for me and the problem I was dealing with. In fact the advice I got on here was so helpful that I would say it has turned everything around. I respectfully suggest you look at that procedure to temporarily banning somebody who has been the victim of judgementalism.

I also want to say that I am not angry as I write this. Everything I have said above is with a modulated and calm tone. It is well intentioned and not intended to be controversial. I am simply responding to being challenged. One of my positive characteristics is that I have the strength to stand up for the things that I believe in. I am very grateful for all the help and advice I receive on this site but I am not going to sit idly by if I think I am being judged harshly.

RF

[HelenaHandbasket]

RF, I realize this is none of my business and I know you won't like what I have to say. But I feel literally sick to my stomach reading through these posts and I just feel like I have to say this.

What you are doing to your wife is so grossly unfair. You say you've been in this relationship with your pwBPD for over a decade, and it sounds like it began shortly after you married your wife. I understand that you and your wife don't have passion (one wonders if that could have something to do with the fact that instead of drilling down on that issue and working on it with your wife, you chose to go outside your marriage instead, but the lack of passion is there regardless), and that sucks. No doubt. But RF, it sucks for your wife too. Believe me. And what you've done here is rob her of a chance to make an informed decision about your r/s. You are essentially robbing her of years of her life, years that could have been spent either repairing your own r/s or getting out of your r/s and finding someone who will love and appreciate her and be faithful to her. She deserves that.

Your focus seems to be so completely on this affair, and I think you desperately need to hear that what you are doing to your wife is NOT FAIR. It's not okay. There is no justification for it. You are robbing her of her agency, you are making a fool of her, and you are stealing years of her life away from her. Please stop it. Please take a short break from focusing on this affair and tell your wife the truth. She has the right to know. She has the right to act accordingly. If you don't want her, let her go. It is utterly selfish to keep her in the dark.

[Skip]

Learning what empathy is will help you in better navigate this emotional crisis. Can you listen to this video and read this article? I don't think we are working with the same definition of empathy.  
https://bpdfamily.com/content/listen-with-empathy

I struggle to see her point of view because she has proven herself to be manipulative at times. It is a trust issue.

Wouldn't you like her / others to see your point of view and not immediately invalidate it. Would it OK that people don't because they have trust issues?

This is what you are saying... .I love her... .love of my life.  I don't try to understand her point of view because I don't trust her. I prefer to think she is having another affair rather than listen to her with an open mind.

You are also saying, she doesn't listen to your point of view and that is upsetting.

My marriage is devoid of intimacy that is not a catastrophe. That is the same as millions of people all over the world.

Let's break this down. If you sit your wife down and explain that you have been in an affair for the entire marriage with someone you love more than her since before she even met you - see if she uses the word "catastrophic", "abusive", "ultimate betrayal". Add that there were other affairs too.

So why is it that you think its not catastrophic. I think because it does not feel catastrophic to you. What feels catastrophic to you is that your affair partner might be seeing someone else (although it is just speculations).

On one hand, 14 years, serial adultery, is not catastrophic. On the other hand, the mere possibility of having an affair on an affair, is catastrophic.

This is a really good example of:

Very Impaired (3) Ability to consider and understand the thoughts, feelings and behavior of other people is significantly limited; may discern very specific aspects of others’ experience, particularly vulnerabilities and suffering. Generally unable to consider alternative perspectives; highly threatened by differences of opinion or alternative viewpoints. Confusion or unawareness of impact of own actions on others; often bewildered about peoples’ thoughts and actions, with destructive motivations frequently misattributed to others.

I have found some people on this site to be lacking in empathy towards me at times. Having said that, I think people are coming from a place of trying to help and so I have persevered because I have much to learn about BPD and my reactions to it.

Twelve weeks ago I would not have allowed her access to my FB while being painted black. Today I did. How is that for empathy and progress.

I can't really comment on the Facebook manuevers... .

I respectfully suggest you look at that procedure to temporarily banning somebody who has been the victim of judgementalism. I am very grateful for all the help and advice I receive on this site but I am not going to sit idly by if I think I am being judged harshly.

Lets look at empathy at work... .

The way you see the matter... .you were a victim of other members who were being morally judgemental about you being in an affair -  it was mostly "Americans"  who you feel operate at a different moral level with respect to marriage than the British. There is no reason anyone should do this and you are going to stand your ground when it happens. You are emotionally on edge over a troubled marriage and affair.

The way the moderators see the matter... . looking at the log, your were asked to report to moderator rather than lash out when a member offends you - a few days later you lashed out at a member and were given a time out. You then bypassed the reinstatement process sent to you and created a new membership and deceptively posted as if you were a newbie. You were allowed to continue because of your emotional distress, even though that is a permanently ban-able offense (see guidelines). Today you say " I am not going to sit idly by if I think I am being judged harshly."

So if the moderators could only see their side of this matter, they would have banned you for life, no questions asked. You were at strike three - lash out, lash out, troll. Being empathetic, they saw you how you see things (they don't agree with it, mind you), but they did the one thing that would likely connect with you and that might make you see their point of view - they respected your feelings on the matter.

This is what we are talking about when it come to your wife or your affair partner. We are encouraging you to see their view (not necessarily agree with it) and working with them as valued and respected partners.

[onelittleladybug]

RomanticFool,

Im not sure if you want my feedback either. Im going to put a disclaimer on it which will explain why Im giving it anyway:

When I come to this site and give feedback or post about my own situation I always at least partially keep in mind that there are much more people reading in silence than there are posting. This has been my experience on every forum Ive ever participated in and reading the stats here confirms this. So when I write my feedback to you it is aimed for you, but with that in mind that someone else might be in a similar situation and reading and while you may not feel like you are benefitting from my words they might resonate with someone else and help them. The main purpose of this forum as I understand it is to help us either have a better relationship with a pwBPD, or detach more easily from them and with less pain.

First of all Im not convinced your ex has a BPD. You yourself have expressed doubts. I didnt feel like I saw very striking evidence of it in the conversation you posted. Its possible, there are some indications but I dont think its enough to determine. Im no authority on this Im just saying Im not totally sold on it.

Secondly: I saw invalidation on your behalf in that conversation. Here is an example: "The monster is in your head." My 2c: The monster she is referring to is very possibly the invalidation that is taking place in that very moment. I will add I also saw contempt in her answers. But like Ive said before you cant change her, only you.

Thirdly: Your wife. You refuse to acknowledge and look into this. You act as though you can simply walk back into the marriage and say "honey Im home" like nothing ever happened. If you try to rekindle with her out of the blue she will start to ask questions about all these years you have not been trying and why. No matter what you do there is a big change in your life and she can tell.

Fourth: You keep rehashing old sins of hers (your ex). The drinking and alleged abuse that took place around and after. You berate her over it. Whats the point? Its the past. Forgive and let it go.

Fifth: Aside from issues with rules etc about posting with an alter ego and getting different responses when not mentioning being married, of course you are going to get a different response! It is a hugely different situation when there are other people involved that would be crushed to learn their lives are built on a lie. Over and over again have people here on the forum tried to get you to focus on your own marriage. You say you feel judged, I understand how bad that feels. I shared with you my own affair experience and Im not judgmental about these things. Im a Scandinavian living in the US, I spent a lot of time in the UK and I get the subtle cultural difference that you perceive here (in fact I live with this every day, at work and in my relationships). Many people will judge and many wont. But what you dont seem to see is how you are feeding into the negative reaction yourself because you keep ignoring the subject of your own marriage. This should be your number one focus.

My own cultural background makes me sometime a bit more direct and frank than what is more common where I live in the US. I dont mean to make you or anyone uncomfortable, I just feel like I need to be very direct to get your attention. Cultural differences aside I think that might be the case for others as well wherever they come from.

RF Im gonna be even more honest now. Reading your posts at this point it worries me. I worry that something bad is going to happen, worse than already is. The negative communication between you and your ex is a compulsion and it seems to be spinning out of control. Im actually going to ask you at this point to do everything you can to stop. This is a dangerous situation involving people in a very vulnerable mental state. Are you seeing a therapist?

Ive told you before I was an affair partner once. When you are ready to move on I am more than happy IF you want me to, to share with you what helped me let go. It was not easy at all Ive never felt so torn in my life. I got from that point to complete peace of mind and turning down a recycle offer recently was a breeze for me. Im not going to keep rehashing whats already been said here by so many, and in much more eloquent and compassionate ways than my posts. But please know that I have this experience to share with you if/when youre ready.

Skip asked you a question. He asked you if you wanted emotional support/validation or help to change. What I got from your answer is that you dont want to change, you want emotional validation and support, but you also want us to back you up and declare its all her fault, shes crazy and she probably didnt try to kill herself. I get that you dont want me to ask you to change and Im still doing it. Its my last time I promise. As an active member in this forum if you need me to I can validate your feelings of loss and I will. I know what you are going through is very painful. But I am absolutely not going to back you up and conclude that your ex is wrong and at fault and you are right. Simply because while it may give you temporary relief it wont help you at all in the big picture.

[RomanticFool]

Learning what empathy is will help you in better navigate this emotional crisis. Can you listen to this video and read this article? I don't think we are working with the same definition of empathy.  cool
https://bpdfamily.com/content/listen-with-empathy

Yes I will.

Wouldn't you like her / others to see your point of view and not immediately invalidate it. Would it OK that people don't because they have trust issues?

This is what you are saying... .I love her... .love of my life.  I don't try to understand her point of view because I don't trust her. I prefer to think she is having another affair rather than listen to her with an open mind.

You are also saying, she doesn't listen to your point of view and that is upsetting.

Outside of the r/s with the pwBPD, nobody has ever told me that I lack empathy. It has never been an issue. I am very good at understanding somebody else's point of view because just about everybody in my life is reasonable.

This problem arises when dealing with somebody who is unreasonable and has been abusive. I simply do not know how to deal with it. You are correct that I live on my emotions and when I am emotionally engaged I can become impaired. It's the fight or flight syndrome where one's cognitive abilities are impaired. That happens when I feel attacked.

I am conflicted regarding the pwBPD and it fluctuates on a daily basis. Today she spoke to me twice and we are on cordial terms as a direct result of reinstating her on FB. However, yesterday she told me that I was untrustworthy and controlling. It is my conjecture that this is transference regarding her own behaviour. It isn't that I prefer to think of her having an affair, it is simply that my trust has been compromised after years of dysfunction.

I would actually love to believe that everything she has ever told me is true and it may well be - but when somebody you love launches a year long campaign of perpetual drunken abuse, it is very hard to believe anything they say. That is the root of the current state of mind. Prior to that, I trusted her implicitly. To tell me that I have to earn her trust is transference because she knows that is how I feel about her. So it is not quite as simple as just listening to her. I do listen to her and I find problems with much of what she says and I challenge her.

Let's break this down. If you sit your wife down and explain that you have been in an affair for the entire marriage with someone you love more than her since before she even met you - see if she uses the word "catastrophic", "abusive", "ultimate betrayal". Add that there were other affairs too.

So why is it that you think its not catastrophic. I think because it does not feel catastrophic to you. What feels catastrophic to you is that your affair partner might be seeing someone else (although it is just speculations).

On one hand, 14 years, serial adultery, is not catastrophic. On the other hand, the mere possibility of having an affair on an affair, is catastrophic.

It doesn't feel catastrophic to me because it hasn't happened and I don't think it will ever happen. I think we have a serious issue in the marriage but rather than break up, we have both decided to deal with it in our own way. Is that really so unusual? I believe that it comes down to morality regarding what kind of judgement one attaches to that. Because perhaps I don't share a Christian morality ie that marriage is in the eyes of God and therefore sacred, that I don't see it in such grave terms. You know what, I don't think my wife would be at all surprised if she discovered the affair and I don't think she would shout and scream at me either. We are not conventional people in that way. Indeed I sincerely hope that she has physical love in her life.

I think the affair has become catastrophic because she tried to kill herself.

Very Impaired (3) Ability to consider and understand the thoughts, feelings and behavior of other people is significantly limited; may discern very specific aspects of others’ experience, particularly vulnerabilities and suffering. Generally unable to consider alternative perspectives; highly threatened by differences of opinion or alternative viewpoints. Confusion or unawareness of impact of own actions on others; often bewildered about peoples’ thoughts and actions, with destructive motivations frequently misattributed to others.

I am able to consider alternative perspectives on almost anything. In this case I simply disagree with you and other members and let me give you an example of why that is. This is from the post before yours today.

RF, I realize this is none of my business and I know you won't like what I have to say. But I feel literally sick to my stomach reading through these posts and I just feel like I have to say this. What you are doing to your wife is so grossly unfair.

That kind of rhetoric just annoys me beyond belief. On this occasion I have not responded but I just think if we are enforcing the rules they should be enforced with everyone.

The way you see the matter... .you were a victim of other members who were being morally judgemental about you being in an affair -  it was mostly "Americans"  who you feel operate at a different moral level with respect to marriage than the British. There is no reason anyone should do this and you are going to stand your ground when it happens. You are emotionally on edge over a troubled marriage and affair.

The way the moderators see the matter... . looking at the log, your were asked to report to moderator rather than lash out when a member offends you - a few days later you lashed out at a member and were given a time out. You then bypassed the reinstatement process sent to you and created a new membership and deceptively posted as if you were a newbie. You were allowed to continue because of your emotional distress, even though that is a permanently ban-able offense (see guidelines). Today you say " I am not going to sit idly by if I think I am being judged harshly."

So if the moderators could only see their side of this matter, they would have banned you for life, no questions asked. You were at strike three - lash out, lash out, troll. Being empathetic, they saw you how you see things (they don't agree with it, mind you), but they did the one thing that would likely connect with you and that might make you see their point of view - they respected your feelings on the matter.

This is what we are talking about when it come to your wife or your affair partner. We are encouraging you to see their view (not necessarily agree with it) and working with them as valued and respected partners.

I am half American and I have attended a couple of Christian fundamentalist 'fundraiser' evenings in the states and have observed at first hand the effect strong religious beliefs have on people. England is a much more secular society and the morality is slightly different. That is what I am referring to. It feels to me like a very heavy dose of this morality is coming through here. It's not like I'm the first person in the world to have an affair.  I don't mind being challenged about having an affair, but when people start being judgemental about it, that is where I draw the line and I understood your site did also.

To my knowledge I was only warned twice about not getting into a dispute on these boards, so I'm not quite sure where the three strikes come from. I don't know whether the people (there are now 4 people altogether who have made very judgemental comments about my situation) who made those comments have been given the same warnings as me, but I was quite staggered that I was suspended when I felt the provocation to be extreme.

That said, if coming back under an alias is a ban-able offence then I apologise for that and I thank you all for not banning me. It has made a huge impact on the way I was able to deal with the suicide attempt. I got the support I needed.

When I came back as headinaspin I purposely left out that both of us were married to avoid the judgement. I knew the moderators would know who I was due to the IP address. My ex had just tried to commit suicide and the moral judgements around the marriage were actually hindering my understanding of what the best thing to do would be. In fact Harley Quinn was so helpful that I was able to get some advice and act on it without all the noise around the other stuff.

I am perfectly willing and able to see things from other's point of view on this forum. If you read through the vast majority of my posts you will see that. However, being told that my way of life makes somebody sick to their stomach I switch off. That kind of rhetoric is just not helpful to anybody.

I think you see me as a difficult person lacking in empathy. I see myself as somebody who is trying to untangle himself from a destructive r/s with a pwBPD who he happens to love. This doesn't mean that I don't also love my wife. It just means I have gotten myself embroiled in a very difficult situation which needs to be resolved one way or the other. I have come on here in good faith. I am listening and learning and trying my hardest to implement these things in the r/s with the pwBPD. I am perfectly aware there are people who disagree with affairs, perhaps because they have been the victim in this kind of situation. However, if I was in an AA meeting and somebody started cross sharing about what a bad person i was, I would get up and walk out of the meeting. I am here to try to get some understanding and hold to mirror up to my own behaviour - which I am perfectly willing to do. But I am not here to be abused.

[RomanticFool]

Hi Ladybug,

I understand that you are posting not just for me.

First of all Im not convinced your ex has a BPD. You yourself have expressed doubts. I didnt feel like I saw very striking evidence of it in the conversation you posted. Its possible, there are some indications but I dont think its enough to determine. Im no authority on this Im just saying Im not totally sold on it.

Well if she hasn't she is doing a very good impression of it. I have always said that she has BPD traits rather than fully fledged BPD. Trust me, she has them.

Secondly: I saw invalidation on your behalf in that conversation. Here is an example: "The monster is in your head." My 2c: The monster she is referring to is very possibly the invalidation that is taking place in that very moment. I will add I also saw contempt in her answers. But like Ive said before you cant change her, only you

Of course there was invalidation on my behalf - because she talks nonsense. I have never behaved like a monster towards her and as a man I have to challenge that lest people think I'm physically abusive. She appropriated my word 'monster' from earlier in the conversation, which I saw as manipulation so she can put me on 'trust' probation. She has always had the note of contempt. Funnily enough it makes me smile because it is part of who she is.

Thirdly: Your wife. You refuse to acknowledge and look into this. You act as though you can simply walk back into the marriage and say "honey Im home" like nothing ever happened. If you try to rekindle with her out of the blue she will start to ask questions about all these years you have not been trying and why. No matter what you do there is a big change in your life and she can tell.

I feel like a politician who is asked the same question again and again. I have done nothing but address the situation with my wife. I have talked endlessly on here about it. I do not refuse to look into it, I simply have to deal with the situation with the pwBPD first as that was literally driving me nuts. I could quite easily take the wife issue off the table and tell people it is none of their business. But I haven't done that as I am here in good faith. If you look back into my posts you will see that I have addressed this issue time and again. Remember, I walked away from this r/s 12 weeks ago now and I was pulled back into it by a very manipulative person. I keep telling people that my wife has no clue about any of it. I can't help it if nobody believes me. I have already started addressing certain issues in my marriage. That's all I want to say on that for now.

Fourth: You keep rehashing old sins of hers (your ex). The drinking and alleged abuse that took place around and after. You berate her over it. Whats the point? Its the past. Forgive and let it go.

PTSD.

Fifth: Aside from issues with rules etc about posting with an alter ego and getting different responses when not mentioning being married, of course you are going to get a different response! It is a hugely different situation when there are other people involved that would be crushed to learn their lives are built on a lie. Over and over again have people here on the forum tried to get you to focus on your own marriage. You say you feel judged, I understand how bad that feels. I shared with you my own affair experience and Im not judgmental about these things. Im a Scandinavian living in the US, I spent a lot of time in the UK and I get the subtle cultural difference that you perceive here (in fact I live with this every day, at work and in my relationships). Many people will judge and many wont. But what you dont seem to see is how you are feeding into the negative reaction yourself because you keep ignoring the subject of your own marriage. This should be your number one focus.

Listen, I am not losing any sleep over being judged. I just know what the religious climate is like in the states and how zealous the people are who buy into it. America is a far more conservative country than England and I just know how it can filter into people's everyday thinking. By flagging it up here, I may at least get people to think about it a bit before giving me yet another righteous diatribe about the disgustingness of infidelity. I get it. I am trying to rectify my situation or I wouldn't be on here but I don't go in for self-flagellation.

With respect, I don't think you are in a position to tell me what my number one focus should be. My ex has just tried to kill herself and blamed me. How can I not make that a priority? It's not like I haven't considered my marriage and the issues (I refer you to my answer above).

My own cultural background makes me sometime a bit more direct and frank than what is more common where I live in the US. I dont mean to make you or anyone uncomfortable, I just feel like I need to be very direct to get your attention. Cultural differences aside I think that might be the case for others as well wherever they come from.

I am very honest. I try not to be rude, but if i disagree with somebody or something I tend to speak up. I don't see that as a problem.

RF Im gonna be even more honest now. Reading your posts at this point it worries me. I worry that something bad is going to happen, worse than already is. The negative communication between you and your ex is a compulsion and it seems to be spinning out of control. Im actually going to ask you at this point to do everything you can to stop. This is a dangerous situation involving people in a very vulnerable mental state. Are you seeing a therapist?

Thanks for your concern but the worst is over. The bad has already happened. I have reinstated her on FB and we had a very cordial conversation today. I asked after her mental health today and said I hoped she would start to improve. I am not going to say anything antagonistic towards her. The conversation I posted yesterday was a good one for her. She got what she wanted ie reinstatement on FB and an apology from me for abandoning her. She is never going to let me go without some kind of emotional blackmail however empathic I am towards her. I have realised that much over the last 12 weeks. I am as culpable for that as she is since I have done nothing but told her how much I love her over all these years. The best thing that could happen is that we become friends. She will never allow me to push her out of my life.

I go to AA meetings which is like therapy. I have resisted going into therapy but perhaps it is time that I did.

Ive told you before I was an affair partner once. When you are ready to move on I am more than happy IF you want me to, to share with you what helped me let go. It was not easy at all Ive never felt so torn in my life. I got from that point to complete peace of mind and turning down a recycle offer recently was a breeze for me. Im not going to keep rehashing whats already been said here by so many, and in much more eloquent and compassionate ways than my posts. But please know that I have this experience to share with you if/when youre ready.

Thank you, I am always happy to listen to experience and wisdom. I was ready to move on 12 weeks ago, albeit painfully. However, my ex contacted me three times and then attempted suicide. What I now have to make sure is that it doesn't happen again. The only way i can do that is by listening to advice on here and acting on it. The thing that is very clear to me now is that if I attempt to jettison her from my life, she will make some big dramatic gesture. That is the mud I must now swim through. At least there has now been some emotional detachment and I am able to consider HER needs rather than mine. Today was the start of that. In the case of my ex the mistake I have been making is only focussing on my own needs. It just doesn't work with her.

Skip asked you a question. He asked you if you wanted emotional support/validation or help to change. What I got from your answer is that you dont want to change, you want emotional validation and support, but you also want us to back you up and declare its all her fault, shes crazy and she probably didnt try to kill herself. I get that you dont want me to ask you to change and Im still doing it. Its my last time I promise. As an active member in this forum if you need me to I can validate your feelings of loss and I will. I know what you are going through is very painful. But I am absolutely not going to back you up and conclude that your ex is wrong and at fault and you are right. Simply because while it may give you temporary relief it wont help you at all in the big picture.

I'm sorry but if you got that from my answer then you didn't read it properly. Let me tell you something, I have been in a programme of recovery for nearly 15 years. I am not scared of changing and am always willing to do so.

The fact is the ex IS crazy (I use that in a non judgemental slightly tongue in cheek sense), by any definition. Well adjusted people do not do the things that she has done. She has very serious depression and was one of the worst cases of alcoholism I have encountered (6 bottles of wine a day) when she started drinking again. On top of that she is also a very difficult person. Now add me into the mix and we spark each other. In some ways it is a very good spark but when it goes bad it is terrible.

I made a mistake in walking away from her. What I should have done is agreed with her that things were too difficult to see each other and kept her on FB as a friend. I believe that is what she wanted, but I was in too much pain to do that. After 12 weeks of detachment, i may now be able to actually do it. I don't know if she actually wants to recycle the r/s. she probably does, but not at the moment. She is in no position to be able to do that. What i think will happen is we will simplywill just not see each other but retain a FB and texting friendship. She never wanted the Romeo and Juliet I have tried to play out, she just wanted somebody who stopped the emptiness and validated her. That may be the key to solving this riddle. Admiration without penetration as a good friend of mine used to say.

I don't know where you guys think I need this kind of blind validation, I don't at all. I am probably the person best placed to judge alot of her behaviours because I have seen them so often. The suicide was a particularly serious situation and I have fluctuated on whether I thought it was real or not, but today, I think it is and I don't think she would lie about it. My opinion may change tomorrow - and yes empathy regarding loss is always welcome. I don't need anybody to tell me she is crazy, I can see it for myself, and I think it is BPD.

What I ask is not to be judged in a derogatory way on here because it is against the guidelines. A little bit of verbal TLC is always nice when you are struggling but most people on here are great at doing that. For me this is an ongoing process, just like AA and I'm sure a little bit further down the line I'll be like the Dalai Lama - but for now, this is where I'm at. Thanks for your time and trouble to reply. I do appreciate it.

[Skip]

Outside of the r/s with the pwBPD, nobody has ever told me that I lack empathy. It has never been an issue.

I was suggesting that you self-examine in this area as it may help you. I was just one member's opinion  to consider... .

It doesn't feel catastrophic to me because it hasn't happened and I don't think it will ever happen. I think we have a serious issue in the marriage but rather than break up, we have both decided to deal with it in our own way. Is that really so unusual? You know what, I don't think my wife would be at all surprised if she discovered the affair and I don't think she would shout and scream at me either. We are not conventional people in that way. Indeed I sincerely hope that she has physical love in her life.

And you feel certain your wife would be good with it all. OK.

That said, if coming back under an alias is a ban-able offence then I apologise for that and I thank you all for not banning me. It has made a huge impact on the way I was able to deal with the suicide attempt. I got the support I needed.

It was explained in detail in the email sent to you... .we have a simple resinatatement process that lets everyone express their ideas and get on the same page... .

When I came back as headinaspin I purposely left out that both of us were married to avoid the judgement. I knew the moderators would know who I was due to the IP address. My ex had just tried to commit suicide and the moral judgements around the marriage were actually hindering my understanding of what the best thing to do would be.

So, the deception was justified. You felt we would be good with it. Same for the members that helped you? OK.

I think you see me as a difficult person lacking in empathy. I see myself as somebody who is trying to untangle himself from a destructive r/s with a pwBPD who he happens to love.

I hope I was more exacting than that. I think you are in a no-win situation. You have an affair with a really weak person who is struggling with her own sanity and has inherent relationship issues (like trust). I think you contribute your own self-defeating behaviors that make this relationship even more complex and will ultimately make all your relationships difficult. You could tackle "your stuff" head on and it will help you here and in other relationships.

But I am not here to be abused.

Absolutely.

[onelittleladybug]

OK RF. Youve got this figured out. You dont need us. Your entire post was about how she and many other people are wrong, and you are right and I already said I cant validate that. If you decide you want to hear my story about how I worked myself through the affair experience and the loss my offer always stands. Im being sincere but blunt.

I go to AA meetings which is like therapy. I have resisted going into therapy but perhaps it is time that I did.

AA is quite different from therapy. I am very familiar with both. I think it would be great for you to try therapy. AA is vital in keeping you sober but therapy is looking at the emotional wounds that drove you to drink in the first place.

What I ask is not to be judged in a derogatory way on here because it is against the guidelines.

No one wants to be judged. I think people are trying to wake you up to something we are seeing and you are resisting. You are in anonymous public forum, a couple of harsh comments here and there are to be expected. Im actually personally impressed by how well things play out here and how well its moderated compared to many other forums but thats my opinion.

A little bit of verbal TLC is always nice when you are struggling but most people on here are great at doing that.

Now Im not an AA member but Ive been to my fair share of Al Anon meetings, AlCoA meetings and my father was a drug and alcohol counselor for 15 years, he lived in AA meetings and most of my childhood and teenage years I would just hope he would shut up about it already. This is what I know through him and my own meetings: A new member will show up and claim they knew everything and needed nothing. They will receive "tough love", not verbal TLC. When they are ready to face things thats where support begins. Again I personally will always be around to emotionally support you, but not if it means siding with you and saying your ex is in the wrong. Sorry to be repetitive.

I'm sure a little bit further down the line I'll be like the Dalai Lama - but for now, this is where I'm at. Thanks for your time and trouble to reply. I do appreciate it.

Yeah Im waiting to grow a pair of wings myself. I dont have my r/s with my pwBPD figured out at all. Lmk when you reach Dalai Lama status and I will be pestering you for advice  Youre welcome to my meager advice, I hope I can help you a bit and Im glad you appreciate it.

[HelenaHandbasket]

RF, my point is simply this: You do not have the *right* to keep this from your wife.  Perpetuating a situation where you have all the facts and she does not is unfair and selfish. You seem preoccupied with being judged. I would argue that some behavior should be judged. I know life is complicated and affairs happen. It's not you personally that I judge. It's your behavior.  Continuing this for so many years and keeping your wife in the dark is outrageous. It just is. You can talk and talk in an attempt to justify it, but the naked truth is that there is no justification for it.

I am an American (happily married to a Brit for 15 years now, actually), but I am absolutely not religious, so there's no Bible Belt influence here.  For me, this is about treating people with dignity and respect. You claim to love your wife. If that is true, I encourage you to consider whether you feel she has the right to have all the facts and make an informed decision about where to go with your r/s.

And I invite you to consider this: If this is a cultural issue--if the Brits are less likely to be judgmental of this sort of behavior, then why are you keeping this from your wife? I assume she is British as well?

Believe it or not, I'm not  trying to be harsh with you. My intention is to help, and I believe that sometimes you have to be blunt in order to do that. It may be that you are just too close to this situation to see this aspect of it clearly.  I suspect if you did come clean to your wife you would be so glad you did. It might even bring you closer together. It might help you gain clarity in this other aspect of your life as well. At the very least, it would help you to know that you're living an authentic life and treating the people you love with respect.

[RomanticFool]

OK RF. Youve got this figured out. You dont need us. Your entire post was about how she and many other people are wrong

No it wasn't at all. Go back and read what i wrote. I said Harley Quinn was very helpful and Skip knows I find his feedback challenging but helpful.

I'm not on this forum because I have lived in a cacoon my whole life. I just don't know how to deal with a pwBPD. This is a BPD forum and that is why I am on here.

I told you that I have talked endlessly about my wife on this forum and i have. I can't help it if people don't read my posts properly.

AA is quite different from therapy. I am very familiar with both. I think it would be great for you to try therapy. AA is vital in keeping you sober but therapy is looking at the emotional wounds that drove you to drink in the first place.

I think AA is like group therapy and there are elements of CBT in there too. The wounds that drove me to drink were sort of dealt with in my step 4 in which I saw that an addictive pattern arose when drinking to deal with emotional responses to things. Also, I drank because I loved the effects of being out of my head and I didn't have to deal with fear and anxiety - until the next day. I have been sober for almost 15 years and I do think I have learnt something about my triggers. I'm not saying that I know everything because I don't. I am on here to learn more.

No one wants to be judged. I think people are trying to wake you up to something we are seeing and you are resisting. You are in anonymous public forum, a couple of harsh comments here and there are to be expected. Im actually personally impressed by how well things play out here and how well its moderated compared to many other forums but thats my opinion.

I am not resisting it at all. I know what cheating on somebody means and all of the moral implications therein. I understand this cognitively and emotionally. So I wish everybody would give me some credit for that. I had the strength to walk away from somebody I am crazy about and I will have the strength to deal with my marriage, one way or the other, in the coming weeks.

I think this forum is not dissimilar to how AA works. We share to each other and get advice or validation depending on what we need. What we should never get is judgement. In AA that is called cross sharing. People need time to work these things out.

In terms of the exBPD, I was acutely aware that Skip was trying to get me to behave with more empathy as he could see something bad coming on. I did make mistakes in this situation and it pains me greatly that my rejection of her attempts to recycle/reconnect exacerbated her loneliness and may have driven her to a suicide attempt. I do think I have some responsibility to her in that area, which I am trying to deal with now.

Now Im not an AA member but Ive been to my fair share of Al Anon meetings, AlCoA meetings and my father was a drug and alcohol counselor for 15 years, he lived in AA meetings and most of my childhood and teenage years I would just hope he would shut up about it already

Empathy?

This is what I know through him and my own meetings: A new member will show up and claim they knew everything and needed nothing. They will receive "tough love", not verbal TLC. When they are ready to face things thats where support begins. Again I personally will always be around to emotionally support you, but not if it means siding with you and saying your ex is in the wrong. Sorry to be repetitive.

Actually support begins from the moment somebody first walks into an AA room. The newcomer is treated with kid gloves to begin with, so that he/she may deal with their emotional turmoil and once the fog begins to clear then the programme is lovingly instilled into them. Tough love only happens if somebody is not listening or is constantly drinking and coming back into the rooms with no intention of getting well.

As I have stated numerous times, I am here in good faith. I am working my way through my various problems and there has been progress. Beating somebody into submission is not the way any recovery works to my knowledge, they have to find their own way through with the tools of recovery. I am grateful to all of those who are taking the time and trouble to reply - minus the judgement.

Just so I can make this as clear as clear. I do not need to wake up to the fact I am cheating on my wife. I am completely aware of it. That is one of the reasons that I walked away from the affair 12 weeks ago. In that time I have no seen my ex once. I have only allowed her back onto my FB out of compassion. All of my struggles have thus far been about trying to detach from her and all of the perils and emotions (which are changeable and complex) surrounding that. Now I am beginning to address the issues with my wife. What i won't be doing is telling her that I have cheated on her because then there will be no r/s. What I will do is try not to repeat the addictive codependent behaviour, specifically around women, that AA has not been able to address. I did go to Sex And Love Addicts Anonymous (SLAA) quite a few times over the years to try to deal with these issues.

However, there is a particular programme in SLAA called HOW, which I found very strange and did not attract me. As my current predicament has illustrated now is the time to deal with these issues, which is why I am now thinking about therapy. So please stop characterising me as some meat-head who is not listening and thinks he knows everything because that is not who I am at all.

Yeah Im waiting to grow a pair of wings myself. I dont have my r/s with my pwBPD figured out at all. Lmk when you reach Dalai Lama status and I will be pestering you for advice wink Youre welcome to my meager advice, I hope I can help you a bit and Im glad you appreciate it.

I don't think I will obtain Nirvana around these issues for quite some time but I make the same pledge to you that you have made to me, I am always here to help.

[RomanticFool]

Helenahandbasket,

Do you not think I am aware of the morality around having an affair? Do you not think I have thought about the implications and how it would affect my wife if she ever found out. Trust me, I have thought of little else over the years.

I justify the r/s with my ex on the basis that there is no physical intimacy with my wife and the fact I love the woman, who I met way before my wife. I am not asking anybody to accept my morality, but what I am asking is not to be denounced on here while I am still finding my way through.

You seem preoccupied with being judged.

Emotive reactions to my situation ensure one thing - an emotive response ( I refer to you saying you felt sick to your stomach). I am already on three strikes on this site and I don't want to be kicked off! Judgement creates an emotional reaction in me and I become cognitively impaired. I would rather avoid feeling that at the moment as I need a clear head regarding how to proceed. One wrong move could blow this whole thing up. That is not me being dramatic. Every single day i have to steel myself to deal with my ex and I need to do it calmly.

I don't mean what I am about to say to sound rude, because it isn't meant to be, but at the moment I am not interested in how people react to the affair or what they consider fair or unfair. What I am trying to focus on is to implement the things I am learning on here, so that I may better deal with a very difficult situation.

My intention is to help, and I believe that sometimes you have to be blunt in order to do that. It may be that you are just too close to this situation to see this aspect of it clearly.

I have no doubt everybody on here is well intentioned. What I don't need at the moment is tough love. I need support. I am not in denial about having an affair, I am trying to figure out a way through it. Hearing that it makes a person sick to their stomach doesn't help me at all. It just makes me feel that the support is not there. Perhaps people think supporting somebody who is having an affair is enabling. I have been seeing my ex on and off for 14 years. It is not a situation that is going to be solved by people screaming 'adulterer!' at me.

I suspect if you did come clean to your wife you would be so glad you did. It might even bring you closer together.

I have considered this course of action but I think at the moment it may be better to focus on where the rift in our sex life happened. Perhaps we see whether that is fixable first. I don't want to hurt her. For all I know she may be seeing somebody herself and then we would have to break up. I don't want to break up my marriage at the moment. I want to see if it is fixable.

At the very least, it would help you to know that you're living an authentic life and treating the people you love with respect.

I don't think sleeping with somebody else means I don't respect my wife. This is where my morality is perhaps different to yours. I have nothing but love and respect for her and she has the same for me. That is pretty authentic to me.

[RomanticFool]

I was suggesting that you self-examine in this area as it may help you. I was just one member's opinion  to consider... .

I'll tell you something which will probably amuse you. I teach empathy in some of the work that I do - specifically when people are dealing with difficult encounters.

I listened to the video and read the article. Intellectually I understand empathy. Clearly I am not putting it into practise with my ex.

And you feel certain your wife would be good with it all. OK.

I don't feel certain about anything. I am pretty sure that it would hurt her and there would be a great deal of painful soul-searching. However, once we were over all of that, there may be some understanding. She may even have something to tell me. Or she may storm out never to be seen again. I don't know.

I have considered opening the whole can of worms to her - as has been suggested on here - my problem with that is that if she doesn't react how I would hope and has the most volatile and angry reaction, it may actually ruin her life. I am not too cowardly to tell her. I have come close several times. However, the question is, do I want to potentially ruin her life? It has been suggested that I give her the opportunity to make a decision armed with all the information. Well I have broached the subject of splitting up  - not in blunt terms - but in a 'What would we do if' scenario and she replied, 'We are never breaking up.' I am not going to talk about my wife in BPD terms but I will just say that she has abandonment issues. So I don't particularly want to put her in a situation where she feels splitting up is the only option. My opinion on this may change in time.

It was explained in detail in the email sent to you... .we have a simple resinatatement process that lets everyone express their ideas and get on the same page... .

I misread it. I thought it said that if I was to come back under a different name before the 24 hour cooling off time period was up then that was the expulsion offence. I have duly noted the rule.

So, the deception was justified. You felt we would be good with it. Same for the members that helped you? OK.

I needed to deal with the circumstances of the ex trying to kill herself, so I felt it was justified. I don't speak for what other members felt about it.

I hope I was more exacting than that. I think you are in a no-win situation. You have an affair with a really weak person who is struggling with her own sanity and has inherent relationship issues (like trust). I think you contribute your own self-defeating behaviors that make this relationship even more complex and will ultimately make all your relationships difficult. You could tackle "your stuff" head on and it will help you here and in other relationships.

You don't mention that the ex has BPD. I am curious to know whether you think her pathology is inconsistent with BPD.

I am trying to deal with things here. Empathic responses are clearly always good in any situation. With a little distance I can see that the way I have been behaving to my ex has been extremely dysfunctional.

Obviously we have been embroiled in an affair and so that of itself is always going to be difficult. What has made the situation far worse for me is that 95% of the r/s has been conducted via texts. I have said things to her - and vice versa - that would never be said face to face.

[RomanticFool]

Regarding Empathy in relation to my ex:

Set Aside Personal Beliefs, Concerns and Agenda - Just for now, at least. Go into the conversation empty handed—with no personal expectations or goal of fixing anyone. Be willing to have your mind and perspective changed. Your only agenda is listening and trying to understand the other’s point of view.

The problem with this aspect is that I always had an agenda. To see her. Once the addictive nature of the r/s kicked in, it was impossible to hear anything that got in the way of that.

Remove Ourselves / Gain Perspective - When you take things personally, you cannot separate yourself enough to feel the other person’s pain. Detach enough so that you are not in a emotionally heightened state— do not allowing the other person’s behavior to upset you or trigger you.

I have been able to be more objective since we broke up. Being upset and triggered by her has been one of the biggest issues.

Be Present/ Be an Active Listener - Listen to the person in the moment, truly utilizing the skills of actively listening. Don't jump ahead, re-frame what they are saying and compare it to a personal experience you had, don't rush to project ahead, or to frame a response. When we do this we completely lose sight of the reason of our conversation in the first place, sharing information as a means to build, maintain and sustain the relationship.

This is very difficult to do via text. We never had a problem face to face - but that fact seemed to count for little with the ex.

Getting Beyond the Facts / Relate - When the other person begins to share, focus on their feelings. Think of situations that you’ve experienced in the past that are similar. Just think about this - connect with it - don't share it. This will deepen your emotional insight into the other person’s plight.

I did used to discuss how she felt a great deal when things were good between us. When somebody is constantly running away there is no emotional connection via text.

Talk to the Person's Inner-Child - When we visualize our child as their vulnerable inner-child we can lower and lessen our defenses, that will then allow us to want to preserve the relationship and communicate in an effective way.

In my opinion the ex has waif tendencies and I did often think of her as a wounded child - or wounded butterfly. It's easier to do this when they are not spitting venom.

See Empathy as a Lifestyle, Not an Event - Make an effort to heal the past hurts, to remember to accentuate the positive, and to nurture the relationship on a daily basis. Most importantly, be mindful that when we are angry we can do a lot of damage and set things way back.

This I have spectacularly failed to do with her. I would say that I am trying to rectify it now, but all I am really doing is being cordial because I don't want to recycle the affair. I am enquiring after her mental health regularly.